0:00:05 > 0:00:07Mr Speaker, there is no alternative conclusion
0:00:07 > 0:00:09other than that the Russian state was culpable
0:00:09 > 0:00:14for the attempted murder of Mr Skripal and his daughter.
0:00:14 > 0:00:17Relations between Britain and Russia are put into a deep freeze.
0:00:17 > 0:00:21Russia responds by saying - we are used to cold weather.
0:00:21 > 0:00:24Rarely does Britain find itself at the centre of such a major
0:00:24 > 0:00:26diplomatic struggle.
0:00:26 > 0:00:28We'll hear from the Security Minister.
0:00:28 > 0:00:31And did Jeremy Corbyn judge it right in his response?
0:00:31 > 0:00:33Some of his own MPs don't think so.
0:00:33 > 0:00:38The Shadow Security Minister will explain Labour's position.
0:00:38 > 0:00:40Brexit Secretary David Davis has been travelling
0:00:40 > 0:00:43the continent today - and seeming to make Brexit
0:00:43 > 0:00:51concessions to the Europeans, exclusively to Nick Watt.
0:00:51 > 0:00:58I'm not bothered too much about the question of whether it's Christmas
0:00:58 > 0:01:042020 all Easter 2021.So if it means Christmas 2020, you'd go for that?
0:01:04 > 0:01:07I'd go for that.
0:01:07 > 0:01:09Also tonight, we're with Stephen Hawking's
0:01:09 > 0:01:09famous collaborator, the mathematician
0:01:09 > 0:01:10Sir Roger Penrose.
0:01:10 > 0:01:13And Angela Merkel has been sworn in for her
0:01:13 > 0:01:15fourth term in office - but Germany now has to contemplate
0:01:15 > 0:01:16political life without her.
0:01:16 > 0:01:23Gabriel Gatehouse is in the Rhineland.
0:01:24 > 0:01:25Hello.
0:01:25 > 0:01:28The British response came today - ten days after Sergei Skripal,
0:01:28 > 0:01:33his daughter and Detective Sergeant Nick Bailey were so badly poisoned
0:01:33 > 0:01:35by Novichok nerve agent.
0:01:35 > 0:01:3823 Russian diplomats are to be expelled, there's a vow to freeze
0:01:38 > 0:01:41Russian assets that pose a threat here, a suspension of high level
0:01:41 > 0:01:44contacts, and a downgrading of Britain's attendance
0:01:44 > 0:01:46at the World Cup.
0:01:46 > 0:01:48Britain has had some international support this evening -
0:01:48 > 0:01:51the US ambassador to the UN, Nikki Haley, said it was
0:01:51 > 0:01:52the Russians that did it.
0:01:52 > 0:01:54The French have been mildly more circumspect.
0:01:54 > 0:02:02But the Russians themselves?
0:02:02 > 0:02:03They said it's absolutely unacceptable and unworthy
0:02:03 > 0:02:05of the British to seek to aggravate relations in pursuit
0:02:05 > 0:02:06of "unseemly political ends".
0:02:06 > 0:02:09At the UN tonight, they demanded material proof of the allegedly
0:02:09 > 0:02:11found Russian trace.
0:02:11 > 0:02:14Lots to talk about - let's hear from Mark Urban first,
0:02:14 > 0:02:20on the British approach.
0:02:20 > 0:02:23So the spy expulsions are on.
0:02:23 > 0:02:26Nearly two dozen regarded as intelligence operatives under
0:02:26 > 0:02:29diplomatic cover have been told to pack their bags and be out
0:02:29 > 0:02:32within a week.
0:02:32 > 0:02:35This is only one of a number of measures the British
0:02:35 > 0:02:39government is taking, many of them likely not to be
0:02:39 > 0:02:42announced publicly and many of them likely to be
0:02:42 > 0:02:45what President Eisenhower used to call quiet military measures
0:02:45 > 0:02:50that your adversary would see and understand, but the public
0:02:50 > 0:02:55wouldn't necessarily see.
0:02:55 > 0:02:57Along with the decision to expel 23 Russian diplomats,
0:02:57 > 0:03:02there will be more checks on private flights, customs and freight.
0:03:02 > 0:03:04There will be asset freezes for Russians who've
0:03:04 > 0:03:07threatened UK nationals.
0:03:07 > 0:03:11British officials will boycott the World Cup.
0:03:11 > 0:03:12High-level contacts such as a planned visit
0:03:12 > 0:03:14by the Russian Foreign Minister will be suspended,
0:03:14 > 0:03:19and there will be new laws against hostile state activity.
0:03:19 > 0:03:26A long list, but maybe a little short on specifics.
0:03:26 > 0:03:30And underlying a tentative approach is some tentative language.
0:03:30 > 0:03:35The Government is hesitant to pin this unequivocally on Russia.
0:03:35 > 0:03:38They have treated the use of a military grade nerve agent
0:03:38 > 0:03:44in Europe with sarcasm, contempt and defiance.
0:03:44 > 0:03:47So, Mr Speaker, there is no alternative conclusion other
0:03:47 > 0:03:48than that the Russian state was culpable for
0:03:48 > 0:03:53the attempted murder of Mr Skripal and his daughter.
0:03:53 > 0:03:55And even in its letter yesterday to the international
0:03:55 > 0:04:01chemical weapons body, the OPCW, the UK has said of the Novichok
0:04:01 > 0:04:03agents: "Russia has previously produced this agent
0:04:03 > 0:04:06and would still be capable of doing so".
0:04:06 > 0:04:08It does not say that the origin
0:04:08 > 0:04:11of the Salisbury Novichok can be proven.
0:04:11 > 0:04:14I think the dilemma probably is that there is very strong
0:04:14 > 0:04:15circumstantial evidence.
0:04:15 > 0:04:20The Russians were given the chance to respond and reacted dismissively.
0:04:20 > 0:04:23But there is no suspect,
0:04:23 > 0:04:26and therefore there wasn't a criminal level of proof yet.
0:04:26 > 0:04:29But the Government has been under great pressure to come forward
0:04:29 > 0:04:32with an initial set of measures.
0:04:32 > 0:04:36They have now done that, and this is the first stage
0:04:36 > 0:04:37of what will, I guess, now develop into a more general
0:04:37 > 0:04:41discussion at the Security Council in Nato and the EU about what is
0:04:41 > 0:04:47behind it and how countries should now regard Russia in terms of,
0:04:47 > 0:04:50are they a responsible and serious member f the
0:04:50 > 0:04:53international community?
0:04:53 > 0:04:57So the Government has not yet been able to tie Russian-made Novichok
0:04:57 > 0:05:00by its molecular fingerprint to the Salisbury poisoning -
0:05:00 > 0:05:02not publicly, anyway.
0:05:02 > 0:05:07Its decision to involve the OPCW watchdog in analysing samples
0:05:07 > 0:05:10from the incident will take the crisis onto an
0:05:10 > 0:05:13international plane.
0:05:13 > 0:05:16I think that is both a confidence-building measure,
0:05:16 > 0:05:19and also plays to one of our great strengths in the West, right?
0:05:19 > 0:05:24Our great contrasting strengths to the Russians
0:05:24 > 0:05:29are transparency, allies and international institutions.
0:05:29 > 0:05:31Russians on the panel?
0:05:31 > 0:05:37Well, that would be the OPCW's choice.
0:05:37 > 0:05:40My sense is that the Russians ought to be present to see
0:05:40 > 0:05:42what is happening, but that neither the Russians nor the British
0:05:42 > 0:05:44should be on the panel.
0:05:44 > 0:05:49The Government's tentative language may reflect that they still haven't
0:05:49 > 0:05:52identified the precise origin of the nerve agent,
0:05:52 > 0:05:55and they don't seem to have any suspects in planting it.
0:05:55 > 0:06:01But it may also be part of a strategy to leave some
0:06:01 > 0:06:03ambiguity to let the Russians find an off-ramp.
0:06:03 > 0:06:10In the coming days, though, the language is likely to firm up.
0:06:10 > 0:06:13Today's spy expulsion could be the start of a long path of crisis,
0:06:13 > 0:06:17move and countermove.
0:06:17 > 0:06:20And all the while, the lives of two desperately ill people in Salisbury
0:06:20 > 0:06:27hang in the balance.
0:06:27 > 0:06:29Earlier today, I spoke to the security minister, Ben Wallace.
0:06:29 > 0:06:34I began by asking him what measures the Government had announced
0:06:34 > 0:06:37following Moscow's refusal to co-operate in the case.
0:06:37 > 0:06:41We've taken a step today that we think is proportionate,
0:06:41 > 0:06:45and sends a message to the Russians that this is not acceptable,
0:06:45 > 0:06:47and that things need to change, but also that downgrades
0:06:47 > 0:06:51operationally their ability of intelligence officers in London
0:06:51 > 0:06:56to prosecute espionage against us, both economically and
0:06:56 > 0:07:00in the security space, and at the same time we've talked
0:07:00 > 0:07:02about progressing this through starting the process
0:07:02 > 0:07:06of internationalising the response, and that's why the Prime Minister
0:07:06 > 0:07:08talked about a UN...
0:07:08 > 0:07:10A discussion at the UN Security Council, and she has spoken
0:07:10 > 0:07:14to world leaders such as Donald Trump and
0:07:14 > 0:07:16President Macron as well.
0:07:16 > 0:07:19And one of the areas that has been much talked about are financial
0:07:19 > 0:07:23measures to sanction probably named individuals who we suspect
0:07:23 > 0:07:25are Putin cronies and friends, and have significant
0:07:25 > 0:07:29assets in London.
0:07:29 > 0:07:31Should we be embarrassed, really, that there are these people
0:07:31 > 0:07:35in London, that we have allowed ourselves to get into the position
0:07:35 > 0:07:37where bad people have felt London is a place,
0:07:37 > 0:07:41a comfortable place, to park money and do business?
0:07:41 > 0:07:45I think we should all collectively, in the body politics, have to take
0:07:45 > 0:07:47responsibility for that.
0:07:47 > 0:07:51That, you know, we have allowed the City of London's reputation
0:07:51 > 0:07:56as a centre for world finance to be exploited by some pretty nasty
0:07:56 > 0:07:59individuals, who have used illicit money flows from around the world
0:07:59 > 0:08:02to come here, either to harbour it or to clean
0:08:02 > 0:08:07it, or to just move it around, or invest it.
0:08:07 > 0:08:09Let's be clear.
0:08:09 > 0:08:11If you are a foreign oligarch or kleptocrat
0:08:11 > 0:08:15bringing money to London, the party is over.
0:08:15 > 0:08:16That London industry is now going to close.
0:08:16 > 0:08:20That is what we want the message to be, and we are going to do steps
0:08:20 > 0:08:22to take the money off you if we can't get
0:08:22 > 0:08:27you as well, and only last week, Evan, Britain
0:08:27 > 0:08:29went up in the rankings of least corrupt countries.
0:08:29 > 0:08:31We are now eighth in the world.
0:08:31 > 0:08:33I would like to see that go higher.
0:08:33 > 0:08:36It does say, by the way, the Chemical Weapons Convention,
0:08:36 > 0:08:40it does back up one Russian point on all of this - it is article nine,
0:08:40 > 0:08:42paragraph two, for all it matters.
0:08:42 > 0:08:46Where a complaint is made, the country against whom it's made
0:08:46 > 0:08:49has ten days to respond.
0:08:49 > 0:08:51Should we have given them the ten days?
0:08:51 > 0:08:54Should we have stuck to the form of the letter of the law,
0:08:54 > 0:08:57just so no one can mock us or laugh at us on the basis
0:08:57 > 0:08:59that we haven't stuck to that?
0:08:59 > 0:09:01I think we've already gone a long way.
0:09:01 > 0:09:04We took our time and we've done a thorough job, and that is...
0:09:04 > 0:09:09And the reason for that is, you know, consequences flow from it.
0:09:09 > 0:09:13I wanted the public to realise that we are not cooking this up.
0:09:13 > 0:09:14It's not some dodgy dossier.
0:09:14 > 0:09:18This is a genuine appraisal of the facts, the motives,
0:09:18 > 0:09:22the responses of Russia, and have taken the view
0:09:22 > 0:09:27that we are certain the evidence points to Russia deploying this.
0:09:27 > 0:09:30You know, you say we could have given them ten days.
0:09:30 > 0:09:33I think within minutes out of the trap, they said,
0:09:33 > 0:09:36"We are not responding to British demands."
0:09:36 > 0:09:40So I think once they said that, I think it's pretty certain
0:09:40 > 0:09:44that we can be in a space that Russia's denials - which are pretty
0:09:44 > 0:09:48legendary in Litvinenko - are going to remain,
0:09:48 > 0:09:51and we are not going to tolerate it.
0:09:51 > 0:09:55Removing 23 intelligence officers from London is...
0:09:55 > 0:09:58I think actually some of the public will be wondering why
0:09:58 > 0:09:59we didn't remove them before.
0:09:59 > 0:10:02Why didn't you do it before, given everything we've known
0:10:02 > 0:10:05about Russia and Crimea and Litvinenko and other
0:10:05 > 0:10:08assassinations and all sorts of things?
0:10:08 > 0:10:09I think because when you decide to assert yourself,
0:10:09 > 0:10:11there's a cost for that.
0:10:11 > 0:10:13There could be reprisals.
0:10:13 > 0:10:16Could we contain the threat they were posing and all that?
0:10:16 > 0:10:18That would have been an operational decision at time.
0:10:18 > 0:10:20The Allies have given some encouragement, haven't they?
0:10:20 > 0:10:22The French, the Germans, even President Trump has given
0:10:22 > 0:10:25some encouragement - "We are on your side, Britain,
0:10:25 > 0:10:27we hear what's happened."
0:10:27 > 0:10:31Do you fear that that's as far as they're going to go?
0:10:31 > 0:10:34No, no, I don't.
0:10:34 > 0:10:37This is the time that a government earns its money.
0:10:37 > 0:10:40Ministers will be out talking to ambassadors.
0:10:40 > 0:10:44Leaders will be ringing leaders, and we will be developing
0:10:44 > 0:10:50and helping design a response that deters Russia, and also downgrades
0:10:50 > 0:10:53their operational ability.
0:10:53 > 0:10:57Let's remember, Russia doesn't just spy on Britain, it spies
0:10:57 > 0:10:58on lots of our friends and allies.
0:10:58 > 0:11:02It prosecutes cyber crime against our allies.
0:11:02 > 0:11:05We've already named, helped identify and name,
0:11:05 > 0:11:09an number of cyber attacks by Russia on European allies
0:11:09 > 0:11:11and other countries, so we...
0:11:11 > 0:11:13You know, they're not stupid.
0:11:13 > 0:11:16They know what's going on, and I think I'm optimistic
0:11:16 > 0:11:25we are going to get a good response.
0:11:25 > 0:11:29Well, here with me now to discuss the international reaction
0:11:29 > 0:11:32to all this is Nina Schick.
0:11:32 > 0:11:36She's from the think tank Rasmussen Global
0:11:36 > 0:11:43and joins me now from Brussels.
0:11:43 > 0:11:50A very good evening to you. Nina, you heard what the security minister
0:11:50 > 0:11:54said. He is optimistic there will be more than rhetoric in support of the
0:11:54 > 0:11:59UK. Is that your expectation, particularly from the Europeans?The
0:11:59 > 0:12:04first thing to point out is that this attack on the UK is an attack
0:12:04 > 0:12:11on all Western European democracies. I work at Rasmussen Global, and
0:12:11 > 0:12:14Rasmussen was the former general secretary of Nato. We believe there
0:12:14 > 0:12:19should be a strong Western response to this, because this is just the
0:12:19 > 0:12:23latest in Russia's hybrid war against the West. Theresa May has
0:12:23 > 0:12:31done all she can do domestically, but to send Russia a tough message,
0:12:31 > 0:12:35she needs to get a coalition behind her. Ironically, Theresa May has
0:12:35 > 0:12:41more records via the EU right now than perhaps via the US or Nato, and
0:12:41 > 0:12:47what she can hope for is... She will be raising it at the European
0:12:47 > 0:12:54Council summit on Friday, and what she will be hoping for is to ask the
0:12:54 > 0:12:59EU to extend sanctions which are already in place since 2014's
0:12:59 > 0:13:03invasion of Ukraine on Russia. That will be difficult because some
0:13:03 > 0:13:08members of the EU are dragging their feet on that. But because of the
0:13:08 > 0:13:13nature of this attack, a very serious one, she will have a lot of
0:13:13 > 0:13:17sympathetic leaders listening to her in the EU. We have already seen as
0:13:17 > 0:13:21very strong response from European leaders.It's interesting you say
0:13:21 > 0:13:27that. The French were slightly circumspect. They say they want firm
0:13:27 > 0:13:32proof. Last time, after Litvinenko, the British ambassador to Moscow at
0:13:32 > 0:13:37the time said he was talking to EU leaders at that time about getting
0:13:37 > 0:13:41support, this is Tony Brenton, and he said they were pretty hopeless
0:13:41 > 0:13:48and nowhere to be seen.Absolutely, it isn't going to be easy. Further
0:13:48 > 0:13:58complicated by the fact that the UK is out of the EU. There are many
0:13:58 > 0:14:05Baltic states who will be sympathetic to the UK's position,
0:14:05 > 0:14:08because of their own experiences with Russia. The best we can hope
0:14:08 > 0:14:12for is an extension of those sanctions which were due to be
0:14:12 > 0:14:18extended in June for a period of 12 months rather than six, but still
0:14:18 > 0:14:22that is doing something that is the most effective body of sanctions on
0:14:22 > 0:14:28Russia right now. Long-term, to address the question of Russian
0:14:28 > 0:14:31meddling in the western transatlantic alliance, there has to
0:14:31 > 0:14:37be a more robust effort across the transatlantic, with the EDS, -- with
0:14:37 > 0:14:43the US, the EU and Britain. The UK faces a very difficult challenge
0:14:43 > 0:14:48because it's two traditional pillars of foreign security, one being
0:14:48 > 0:14:52Europe and one being the US, are tenuous at the moment.Thank you
0:14:52 > 0:14:54very much indeed.
0:14:54 > 0:14:56Now - after the Prime Minister's statement today,
0:14:56 > 0:14:57Jeremy Corbyn gave a response.
0:14:57 > 0:15:00This has turned into quite a big issue: many
0:15:00 > 0:15:03- including Labour MPs - felt it was too easy
0:15:03 > 0:15:04on the Russians, and too harsh on the UK.
0:15:04 > 0:15:05Here's a taste.
0:15:05 > 0:15:08The attack in Salisbury was an appalling act of violence.
0:15:08 > 0:15:12How has she responded to the Russian government's request for a sample
0:15:12 > 0:15:18of the agent used in the Salisbury attack to run its own tests?
0:15:18 > 0:15:24Has high resolution trace analysis been run on a sample of the nerve
0:15:24 > 0:15:30agent, and has that revealed any evidence as to the location
0:15:30 > 0:15:36of its production or the identity of its perpetrators?
0:15:36 > 0:15:38Now, a subsequent press briefing in defence of Jeremy Corbyn
0:15:38 > 0:15:41by his spokesman Seamus Milne seemed to compound things.
0:15:41 > 0:15:43He's reported to have said: "There is a history
0:15:43 > 0:15:45between WMDs and intelligence which is problematic
0:15:45 > 0:15:53to put it mildly - drawing comparison to the flawed
0:15:56 > 0:15:58intelligence in the run up to the Iraq war".
0:15:58 > 0:16:00Well, I'm joined by Nick Thomas-Symonds,
0:16:00 > 0:16:02Labour's shadow security minister.
0:16:02 > 0:16:06Do you think there is any comparison to be drawn between the flawed
0:16:06 > 0:16:11intelligence in the run-up to Iraq and we have here?No. I don't think
0:16:11 > 0:16:15it's about flawed intelligence. We have great confidence in the work of
0:16:15 > 0:16:20the security services. It is obviously a distinction between the
0:16:20 > 0:16:22interpretations politicians make of the intelligence and the
0:16:22 > 0:16:26intelligence itself.But this isn't an intelligence case, it is a
0:16:26 > 0:16:29forensic laboratory result that found a chemical weapon which the
0:16:29 > 0:16:33world knows was developed in the soviet Union by the Russians. So it
0:16:33 > 0:16:39was a stupid comparison, would you say?I am not going to accept that
0:16:39 > 0:16:43interpretation. We need to shift from what may or may not have been
0:16:43 > 0:16:47said to the actual position. There has been a very serious incident on
0:16:47 > 0:16:55British soil. The evidence points towards Russia and there are two
0:16:55 > 0:16:59possible explanation is that the Prime Minister gave, either that
0:16:59 > 0:17:03Russia was primarily and deliberately responsible, or it is
0:17:03 > 0:17:05negligently responsible in the sense that it lost control of its nerve
0:17:05 > 0:17:12agent. That is the way the evidence is pointing. And given the failure
0:17:12 > 0:17:17to respond from the Russians this week, the measures the Prime
0:17:17 > 0:17:20Minister has proposed are proportionate.I was trying to get
0:17:20 > 0:17:24you to be harsh on Seamus Milne, but you don't want to do that. Do you
0:17:24 > 0:17:28agree at least that his briefing was a distraction from the message that
0:17:28 > 0:17:34the Labour Party is trying to put out?Evan, in terms of the
0:17:34 > 0:17:38relationship between what the press say whether things are taken out of
0:17:38 > 0:17:42context.Michael I don't think he was taken out of context. I have
0:17:42 > 0:17:49your transcript of it with the comparison to WMD, which seems
0:17:49 > 0:17:55strange. There was no WMD and there obviously is a toxic poison.There
0:17:55 > 0:17:59is obviously an issue as to how politicians interpret intelligence,
0:17:59 > 0:18:06but my point is that we have a very serious situation and in these
0:18:06 > 0:18:10circumstances, we are looking at the evidence, backing the work that has
0:18:10 > 0:18:14been done on the ground, whether it is the Army, the security services
0:18:14 > 0:18:17or the police. Detective Sergeant Nick Bailey is of course ill and we
0:18:17 > 0:18:21are the king of him and Mr Skripal, his daughter and others who have
0:18:21 > 0:18:26been affected by this and we condemn the actions taken.In terms of who
0:18:26 > 0:18:32you think did it, the Russians is your most likely culprit?The
0:18:32 > 0:18:39evidence is certainly pointing in that direction. We see this from the
0:18:39 > 0:18:42point that has been made by the spokesperson for the French
0:18:42 > 0:18:46government in recent days. We want to build the widest possible
0:18:46 > 0:18:50international coalition to be able to tackle this issue and to seek to
0:18:50 > 0:18:54ensure, as Jeremy Corbyn said clearly in the Commons today, that
0:18:54 > 0:18:58we do not want this kind of incident happening on British soil again. To
0:18:58 > 0:19:01do that, the better the standard of proof we can have is surely better
0:19:01 > 0:19:06in building an international coalition.Jeremy Corbyn didn't
0:19:06 > 0:19:11condemn the Russians for the chemical weapon use on British soil
0:19:11 > 0:19:15today. Did he not condemn them because he thought it was too soon
0:19:15 > 0:19:20to condemn them, because he doesn't think it is them, or just because he
0:19:20 > 0:19:26had other things to say?Firstly, I don't accept that interpretation of
0:19:26 > 0:19:30Jeremy. I was sat on the common spent as I heard it. He quoted the
0:19:30 > 0:19:35Prime Minister verbatim on the two explanations, and afterwards made
0:19:35 > 0:19:38clear that we should have a decisive and proportional response based on
0:19:38 > 0:19:44the evidence.No one would argue with that.That is a reasonable
0:19:44 > 0:19:48position for the Leader of the Opposition to take.But in a funny
0:19:48 > 0:19:51way, in order to have the license to make those points, a lot of the
0:19:51 > 0:19:56public will want to know that he feels the same kind of outrage over
0:19:56 > 0:20:00this happening on our soil that a lot of other people think, and he
0:20:00 > 0:20:03didn't express that outrage. He said, we must speak out against the
0:20:03 > 0:20:07abuse of human rights by the Putin government and their supporters, but
0:20:07 > 0:20:11he didn't seem to show the anger at what we think the Russians have done
0:20:11 > 0:20:16in Salisbury. I wonder whether in retrospect, that was the wrong way
0:20:16 > 0:20:21to go.I don't accept that. What he said as a matter of interpretation
0:20:21 > 0:20:24for the listener. At the start of the speech, he made clear his
0:20:24 > 0:20:28abhorrent that the use of a nerve agent like this on a civilian
0:20:28 > 0:20:34population in the way that it has been. Towards the end of the speech,
0:20:34 > 0:20:38he also set out his abhorrent is from Russia's human rights record,
0:20:38 > 0:20:43which we unequivocally condemn. Thanks.
0:20:43 > 0:20:45If it sometimes feels as if the Brexit negotiation
0:20:45 > 0:20:47is Britain making one concession after another, it seems we've
0:20:47 > 0:20:49made another one today.
0:20:49 > 0:20:51We'd wanted a transition or implementation phase of around
0:20:51 > 0:20:54two years; the EU had said 21 months - not a big difference,
0:20:54 > 0:21:01but Brexit secretary David Davis has told Newsnight today that he's
0:21:01 > 0:21:04willing to yield to the EU view - although he's also extracted
0:21:04 > 0:21:07an agreement that a special committee will be established
0:21:07 > 0:21:09to guarantee a "duty of good faith" by both sides
0:21:09 > 0:21:10during that transition.
0:21:10 > 0:21:12David Davis was talking to our political editor Nick Watt
0:21:12 > 0:21:15while on a trip to Prague and Copenhagen today.
0:21:15 > 0:21:23Nick hitched a ride.
0:21:23 > 0:21:28In the air, on the road and yes, into another European chancellery.
0:21:28 > 0:21:31For months, David Davis has embarked on an odyssey around our
0:21:31 > 0:21:39neighbouring continent to build support for his vision of Brexit.
0:21:40 > 0:21:46It's Wednesday, so that must mean a morning RAF plane to shuttle the
0:21:46 > 0:21:50Brexit Secretary to two EU capitals encompassing what was once dubbed
0:21:50 > 0:22:01old and new Europe. First up is Copenhagen.So you are used to
0:22:01 > 0:22:09exercising real power?David Davis is now settling in for the first
0:22:09 > 0:22:12meeting of the day with an Samuelsen, the Danish Foreign
0:22:12 > 0:22:16Minister. He will be hoping for a reasonably friendly reception.
0:22:16 > 0:22:20Denmark is traditionally on the more Eurosceptic side in the EU, rather
0:22:20 > 0:22:24than the Federalist side. And of course, Denmark joined the EEC on
0:22:24 > 0:22:30the same day as the UK in 1973.We talked about some of the issues
0:22:30 > 0:22:33where we agree and somewhere they are not so sure, what we do about
0:22:33 > 0:22:38product standards, what we do about customs. They were interested in
0:22:38 > 0:22:41Northern Ireland and all that sort of thing. And that is part for the
0:22:41 > 0:22:48course. This is probably country number 17 or 18 of this tour, and
0:22:48 > 0:22:51that is what we are getting everywhere. What is it exactly we
0:22:51 > 0:22:56are going to do?
0:22:58 > 0:23:02are going to do?Said it has been David Davis' life for the last few
0:23:02 > 0:23:06months, spurning the chance of a comfy pad in Brussels, he has been
0:23:06 > 0:23:12touring EU capitals to try and find a chink in the surprisingly united
0:23:12 > 0:23:16EU front on Brexit. Britain believes that the final Brexit deal will be
0:23:16 > 0:23:20done in the last hours and minutes of the Brexit negotiations, and
0:23:20 > 0:23:25while it will be done in Brussels, at that point the UK will need
0:23:25 > 0:23:30allies and friends amongst EU leaders who will ultimately call the
0:23:30 > 0:23:39shots.
0:23:43 > 0:23:48We have now swapped the 1970s functionalism of Copenhagen for the
0:23:48 > 0:23:52early baroque splendour of the Czech Foreign Ministry. The Czech
0:23:52 > 0:23:56Republic's membership of the EU realise their dream of David Davis'
0:23:56 > 0:24:00great heroine, Margaret Thatcher, spread the EU East and diluted
0:24:00 > 0:24:05federalism. He is now meeting the Czech Foreign Minister, no doubt
0:24:05 > 0:24:11hoping for a reward.The role of Great Britain is far as foreign
0:24:11 > 0:24:16security is concerned is crucial for Europe. As I said to your minister,
0:24:16 > 0:24:21by Brexit, the British Channel is not wide.So here we are in Prague,
0:24:21 > 0:24:25not in Brussels. Your friend Michel Barnier has been complaining that
0:24:25 > 0:24:31you are not in Brussels. Are you going to answer his call and turn up
0:24:31 > 0:24:33there?On all of these, we started discussions with the commission and
0:24:33 > 0:24:37kicked things off in Downing Street about four weeks ago. We talked
0:24:37 > 0:24:43through it all. Since then, my team have been working flat out,
0:24:43 > 0:24:46principally in Brussels, and they have continued through this weekend
0:24:46 > 0:24:48and I shall join them on Sunday and we will have another meeting with
0:24:48 > 0:24:55him on Monday. But that is just one strand. It is the council that make
0:24:55 > 0:24:58the decision on what our future partnership will be. The council is
0:24:58 > 0:25:02made up of the member states. I will be talking to them all and listening
0:25:02 > 0:25:09to their concerns, explaining what we have in mind, what we aim to do,
0:25:09 > 0:25:11understanding their interests and concerns so that we can incorporate
0:25:11 > 0:25:16them and make sure we get the right decision next week.One of the big
0:25:16 > 0:25:19crunch issues on the implementation period is that the EU says it should
0:25:19 > 0:25:24end of the end of December 2020. The UK says it should be two years,
0:25:24 > 0:25:31which would be March 2021. Are you going to compromise on that?More
0:25:31 > 0:25:38important that that is that we get the implementation period agreed in
0:25:38 > 0:25:42March. It will not be legally signed until the autumn, but agreed in
0:25:42 > 0:25:46March. That is more important to me than a few months either way. I am
0:25:46 > 0:25:49not bothered too much of the question of whether it is Christmas
0:25:49 > 0:25:552020 or Easter 2021.So if it means Chris was 2020, you could live with
0:25:55 > 0:26:01that?I would live with that. We are still in the middle of negotiation,
0:26:01 > 0:26:08but frankly, I would not delay the decision in order to get a month or
0:26:08 > 0:26:12two more.So on the implementation period, can you reassure some of
0:26:12 > 0:26:15your colleagues at Westminster who are concerned that the UK will just
0:26:15 > 0:26:20be a -- will not just be a vassal state? Will the UK be able to stick
0:26:20 > 0:26:24up for itself?We want to have in place a joint committee which will
0:26:24 > 0:26:29oversee any issues like this that come up, and a duty of good faith on
0:26:29 > 0:26:38both sides, so neither side is disadvantaged. We will not fall
0:26:38 > 0:26:42under Mr Rees Mogg's interesting definition of our position!For now,
0:26:42 > 0:26:47this European odyssey is winding down as David Davis turned his
0:26:47 > 0:26:53attention back to Brussels.
0:26:54 > 0:26:55Nick Watt and David Davis on the European tour.
0:26:55 > 0:26:58"We are just an advanced breed of monkeys on a minor planet
0:26:58 > 0:26:59of a very average star.
0:26:59 > 0:27:01But we can understand the universe.
0:27:01 > 0:27:02That makes us something very special."
0:27:02 > 0:27:04So said Stephen Hawking, who died in the early
0:27:04 > 0:27:07hours of this morning.
0:27:07 > 0:27:10He certainly understood the universe better than anyone.
0:27:10 > 0:27:14An undisputed national treasure, internationally admired,
0:27:14 > 0:27:17he was not just a great physicist, he was a man who could frame
0:27:17 > 0:27:20the most brilliant and pithiest of quotes - a quality perhaps born
0:27:20 > 0:27:22of the necessity to be economical with words.
0:27:22 > 0:27:24We'll talk to his great scientific collaborator,
0:27:24 > 0:27:27Sir Roger Penrose, in a moment.
0:27:27 > 0:27:29But first, we thought we'd get our technology editor
0:27:29 > 0:27:32David Grossman to explain the physics for which Stephen
0:27:32 > 0:27:33Hawking will be remembered.
0:27:33 > 0:27:34ALL:Oh!
0:27:34 > 0:27:35Stephen Hawking!
0:27:35 > 0:27:36The world's smartest man!
0:27:36 > 0:27:43Stephen Hawking's place in popular culture is unrivalled.
0:27:43 > 0:27:44Oh!
0:27:44 > 0:27:46I think you are being pedantic.
0:27:46 > 0:27:49Astounding.
0:27:49 > 0:27:52To think the Lord created all this in just seven days!
0:27:52 > 0:27:53Incorrect.
0:27:53 > 0:27:56It took 13.8 billion years.
0:27:56 > 0:28:00Like Einstein, on whose birthday he died, he came to epitomise
0:28:00 > 0:28:02the public's idea of a scientist.
0:28:02 > 0:28:04But how did the scientist Stephen Hawking measure up
0:28:04 > 0:28:06to the popular icon?
0:28:06 > 0:28:12How far did he push forward the boundaries of human knowledge?
0:28:12 > 0:28:16Where should we place him in the pantheon of great scientists?
0:28:16 > 0:28:20If you look, for example, at one measure, winners of Nobel prizes,
0:28:20 > 0:28:24Hawking doesn't feature.
0:28:24 > 0:28:26It's very hard to rank scientists and put them one
0:28:26 > 0:28:31after the other in a list, but he would certainly number
0:28:31 > 0:28:32amongst the very top scientists that we've seen
0:28:32 > 0:28:34in the last few decades.
0:28:34 > 0:28:36I think it's particularly hard if you're a pure
0:28:36 > 0:28:41theoretical physicist, which is what Stephen Hawking was,
0:28:41 > 0:28:44where you are working right at the forefront of what we know,
0:28:44 > 0:28:49on ideas that are going to be very hard to test for the foreseeable
0:28:49 > 0:28:53future, and I think there's a danger, when you choose to do
0:28:53 > 0:28:56that, that it's much harder for people to actually identify,
0:28:56 > 0:28:58yes, there's a particular prediction that we can test
0:28:58 > 0:29:03right now, and check that your ideas are correct.
0:29:03 > 0:29:09Stephen Hawking's most significant work was on the black holes.
0:29:09 > 0:29:12He suggested that since they collapse matter
0:29:12 > 0:29:14into an infinitely dense point, a singularity, they act
0:29:14 > 0:29:17like a big bang in reverse, and therefore may hold clues
0:29:17 > 0:29:21to the origins of the universe.
0:29:21 > 0:29:23And he also proved that one of the previously accepted defining
0:29:23 > 0:29:26characteristics of a black hole may in fact be false.
0:29:26 > 0:29:30I discovered that black holes are not that black after all.
0:29:30 > 0:29:35They give off what has been called Hawking radiation.
0:29:35 > 0:29:37Because of this emission, black holes will lose mass
0:29:37 > 0:29:42and eventually evaporate completely.
0:29:42 > 0:29:47Hawking's theories were fiercely contested among his peers.
0:29:47 > 0:29:50I think at first there is always resistance to new ideas,
0:29:50 > 0:29:54and these were really new.
0:29:54 > 0:29:58In fact, even the very first time Stephen Hawking wrote about some
0:29:58 > 0:30:00of his ideas about black holes, he called the paper
0:30:00 > 0:30:03Black Hole Explosions?, with a question mark at the end,
0:30:03 > 0:30:05suggesting that even he was a little bit concerned about
0:30:05 > 0:30:11the really radical ideas he was coming up with.
0:30:11 > 0:30:15No one can accuse Stephen Hawking of not being ambitious.
0:30:15 > 0:30:18In trying to unify the seemingly contradictory theories
0:30:18 > 0:30:20of physics into one, unified, grand theory,
0:30:20 > 0:30:25he was working at the very edges of human understanding.
0:30:25 > 0:30:29The fact that he did so in a way that excited and inspired those
0:30:29 > 0:30:31who know nothing about physics is a measure of an
0:30:31 > 0:30:38extraordinary mind.
0:30:38 > 0:30:39David Grossman there.
0:30:39 > 0:30:42Joining me now in the studio is Sir Roger Penrose.
0:30:42 > 0:30:50He worked with Stephen Hawking for over 40 years, co-authoring
0:30:52 > 0:30:54the bestselling book "The Nature of Space and Time".
0:30:54 > 0:30:57Back in 1988 he and Hawking won the Wolf Prize for their work
0:30:57 > 0:30:59in "greatly enlarging our understanding of the origin
0:30:59 > 0:31:02and possible fate of the universe".
0:31:02 > 0:31:09Good evening to you. So your main collaboration was around 1970. How
0:31:09 > 0:31:13different were things at that time in his condition and his ability to
0:31:13 > 0:31:19work?He was a lot more able, and he could talk. When I first met him I
0:31:19 > 0:31:24didn't notice anything wrong at all. It was very early stages. And I
0:31:24 > 0:31:28could see gradually over the years getting successively worse. But the
0:31:28 > 0:31:34work we did together was largely before that. The paper we roped
0:31:34 > 0:31:42together in the royals fight on the singularity question was something
0:31:42 > 0:31:48which he had difficulty in speaking, at that time. Most of the
0:31:48 > 0:31:51collaboration, curiously enough, was done over the telephone. There was
0:31:51 > 0:31:56only one meeting when he came to where I was working.I interviewed
0:31:56 > 0:32:00him once. I had no idea how much harder it was to communicate than
0:32:00 > 0:32:05had been let on by the media. When it was broadcast at the interview,
0:32:05 > 0:32:11it was a fluent interview, I asked the question and there came an
0:32:11 > 0:32:17answer. But the answers took a long time to prepare.Yes. And the
0:32:17 > 0:32:21curious thing, when I conversed with him when he could talk, I could get
0:32:21 > 0:32:25on quite well as long as it was an science or mathematics. Then there
0:32:25 > 0:32:29was the odd point when he would say something I couldn't understand at
0:32:29 > 0:32:37all. It was either a joke or an invitation to dinner. It was quite
0:32:37 > 0:32:42curious than... That the scientific communication was much easier.You
0:32:42 > 0:32:46collaborated for ages, but then you drifted apart.We did. The main
0:32:46 > 0:32:51difference was to do with quantum mechanics. Although there was a
0:32:51 > 0:32:55slight moment, to do with his discoveries about the black hole if
0:32:55 > 0:32:59evaporation and all that, and the implications of that, and the
0:32:59 > 0:33:02questions of whether black holes actually swallow information, which
0:33:02 > 0:33:10is what he said originally, and I agree with. But later on, he came to
0:33:10 > 0:33:15the conclusion that because of the general principles of quantum
0:33:15 > 0:33:19mechanics, it can't swallow information. So he went over to a
0:33:19 > 0:33:24different camp.He went over to the other side! The early Stephen
0:33:24 > 0:33:30Hawking with your collaborator.We still got on very well.Help us out
0:33:30 > 0:33:35on how great a physicist he was, and how he will be remembered by
0:33:35 > 0:33:40physicists. We know that the public are very taken with the man and the
0:33:40 > 0:33:44story.We have to separate the remarkable fact of what he did with
0:33:44 > 0:33:49the physical condition he had. It is astounding, no doubt about that. You
0:33:49 > 0:33:55cannot compare him with Einstein, who created theories which
0:33:55 > 0:33:59encompassed huge areas of physics, which were different to theories
0:33:59 > 0:34:04that existed before. He didn't do that. He worked within theories that
0:34:04 > 0:34:09were accepted at the time, and then he combined work with general
0:34:09 > 0:34:15activity on quantum mechanics with the one major thing that nobody
0:34:15 > 0:34:20disputes was due to him, which was this black hole evaporation.You
0:34:20 > 0:34:25told me earlier that you did see him a couple of months ago at a lecture.
0:34:25 > 0:34:31I did indeed.Thank you so much for coming in.Thank you.
0:34:31 > 0:34:33The German general election seems like an age ago now,
0:34:33 > 0:34:35it was back on the 24th September last year.
0:34:35 > 0:34:38And today, almost six months later, Angela Merkel was sworn in for her
0:34:38 > 0:34:40fourth term as Chancellor.
0:34:40 > 0:34:42It was the obvious outcome of that election, but boy,
0:34:42 > 0:34:43it took a long time coming.
0:34:43 > 0:34:45The German President, Frank-Walter Steinmeier,
0:34:45 > 0:34:46formally appointed Merkel's new Cabinet and said
0:34:46 > 0:34:49"It is good that the time of uncertainty is over,
0:34:49 > 0:34:50"these are testing years for democracy".
0:34:50 > 0:34:52He was talking about the world in general -
0:34:52 > 0:34:54and we know what he means.
0:34:54 > 0:34:56But it's certainly been a testing few months for Germany,
0:34:56 > 0:34:59as it has confronted the idea that Merkel may not be forever.
0:34:59 > 0:35:02Gabriel Gatehouse has been to a small town in south west
0:35:02 > 0:35:03Germany to test the mood there.
0:35:03 > 0:35:10Here's his report.
0:35:15 > 0:35:21Welcome to Hassloch - the most average town in Germany.
0:35:21 > 0:35:25In fact, this little place, population 21,400, is so ordinary
0:35:25 > 0:35:33that market researchers use it to test out products.
0:35:38 > 0:35:41But are they buying their new coalition government?
0:35:41 > 0:35:45In terms of democratics and political leanings,
0:35:45 > 0:35:48Hassloch is a mirror of Germany as a whole,
0:35:48 > 0:35:55and under the surface, all is not well.
0:36:02 > 0:36:04Hassloch's main attraction is its holiday park,
0:36:04 > 0:36:09closed now for the winter.
0:36:09 > 0:36:12During the warmer months, residents have free access to the rides.
0:36:12 > 0:36:17It's something that brings the townsfolk together.
0:36:17 > 0:36:20They collect their passes from Rosa Tischenko at the citizens'
0:36:20 > 0:36:28office, who's worked here for nearly two decades.
0:36:49 > 0:36:53In truth, no one in Hassloch seemed particularly excited
0:36:53 > 0:37:01by Angela Merkel's reannointment as Chancellor this morning.
0:37:01 > 0:37:03She's got her fourth term thanks to another coalition deal
0:37:03 > 0:37:09between her Conservatives and the centre-left SPD.
0:37:09 > 0:37:12Angela Merkel's new coalition promises a new dynamism,
0:37:12 > 0:37:15a new cohesion for Germany.
0:37:15 > 0:37:18In reality, though, these are the same two parties that have
0:37:18 > 0:37:21run this country for eight out of the past 12 years,
0:37:21 > 0:37:24and now Germans can look forward to four more years
0:37:24 > 0:37:28of the same old faces.
0:37:28 > 0:37:31The SPD initially resisted another coalition, but the pull of Merkel
0:37:31 > 0:37:35and the logic of Germany's consensus politics led inexorably
0:37:35 > 0:37:43back to the status quo.
0:38:07 > 0:38:09As in the rest of Germany, so in Hassloch, at the last
0:38:09 > 0:38:12election, the two main traditional parties won their smallest share
0:38:12 > 0:38:15of the vote since the war, losing out to the right
0:38:15 > 0:38:19wing, nationalist AfD.
0:38:19 > 0:38:22It's the development of the refugees in Germany.
0:38:22 > 0:38:24That's the main reason?
0:38:24 > 0:38:30It's the main reason, I think, and you have to find these answers.
0:38:30 > 0:38:33Did Angela Merkel mishandle the refugee crisis?
0:38:33 > 0:38:35I don't think...
0:38:35 > 0:38:42From the human side, she has to do this.
0:38:42 > 0:38:45You don't see many refugees on the streets of Hassloch,
0:38:45 > 0:38:53but it's not hard to find people who are worried about them.
0:38:53 > 0:38:56We were invited into the home of a local policeman.
0:38:56 > 0:39:02He once voted CDU, but the refugee crisis prompted him to join the AfD.
0:39:02 > 0:39:06His book shelf, at first glance, looks alarming.
0:39:06 > 0:39:08Oh, bloody hell!
0:39:08 > 0:39:10I thought this was banned in Germany.
0:39:10 > 0:39:12No.
0:39:12 > 0:39:13This only commentary.
0:39:13 > 0:39:17It turns out to be the legally sanctioned, academically annotated
0:39:17 > 0:39:19version of Mein Kampf.
0:39:19 > 0:39:22The policeman says he has no time for Nazis, but he's also lost
0:39:22 > 0:39:30patience with mainstream politics.
0:39:41 > 0:39:43A few streets away, but on the opposite end
0:39:43 > 0:39:46of the political spectrum, we meet a local pastor.
0:39:46 > 0:39:49In his spare time, he fixes old bicycles to give
0:39:49 > 0:39:54away to refugees who, he says, are welcome in Germany.
0:39:54 > 0:39:57But on one subject he and the policeman agree.
0:39:57 > 0:40:00Under Merkel, politics is stagnated.
0:40:00 > 0:40:03Yes, because it's the same, the same people.
0:40:03 > 0:40:04The same people?
0:40:04 > 0:40:06The same people.
0:40:06 > 0:40:08It's Merkel, it's SPD, and I have no hope that
0:40:08 > 0:40:12anything changes with her.
0:40:12 > 0:40:20Germany has to wait for a new government after her.
0:40:20 > 0:40:22Like Manchester United!
0:40:22 > 0:40:25But in Hassloch that an average town, political differences are very
0:40:25 > 0:40:27much alive and kicking.
0:40:27 > 0:40:29In the evening, Peter the policeman invites us
0:40:29 > 0:40:31to his local football club.
0:40:31 > 0:40:31Hello.
0:40:31 > 0:40:35How are you?
0:40:35 > 0:40:36We go!
0:40:36 > 0:40:38What's going on?
0:40:38 > 0:40:39It's not a friend of AfD.
0:40:39 > 0:40:41Oh, OK.
0:40:41 > 0:40:43You want not to remain?
0:40:43 > 0:40:46You make decision...
0:40:50 > 0:40:51We go.
0:40:51 > 0:40:53We go in.
0:40:53 > 0:40:54All right.
0:40:54 > 0:40:56Thank you very much.
0:40:56 > 0:41:04Some political disagreement, I think.
0:41:04 > 0:41:06In this time we have problem.
0:41:06 > 0:41:07Right.
0:41:07 > 0:41:09In the club.
0:41:09 > 0:41:13Because 50% want not AfD.
0:41:13 > 0:41:14Right.
0:41:14 > 0:41:16And the other want AfD.
0:41:16 > 0:41:17I see.
0:41:17 > 0:41:18So are you losing friends?
0:41:18 > 0:41:19Yes, maybe.
0:41:19 > 0:41:21And this is you here, is it?
0:41:21 > 0:41:22Yes.
0:41:22 > 0:41:23Looking at your phone?
0:41:23 > 0:41:25Looking at the wrong place?
0:41:25 > 0:41:27Peter split with Merkel over the refugee crisis,
0:41:27 > 0:41:29but his views on this subject are in fact less radical
0:41:29 > 0:41:36than you might expect.
0:41:43 > 0:41:44Right, so you think you should let in people from Syria,
0:41:44 > 0:41:46from Iraq, from Afghanistan?
0:41:46 > 0:41:47Yes.
0:41:47 > 0:41:50You should?
0:41:53 > 0:41:58The issue of refugees has become a totemic dividing line.
0:41:58 > 0:42:00To many Germans, yet another coalition government feels
0:42:00 > 0:42:03like going round in circles.
0:42:03 > 0:42:05And here's the paradox.
0:42:05 > 0:42:13The more the mainstream cultivates consensus,
0:42:13 > 0:42:20the more society seems polarised.
0:42:20 > 0:42:28That's all we have time for - good night.