0:00:05 > 0:00:08Russia's most famous dissident tells me he believes Putin
0:00:08 > 0:00:13himself has lost control of the Russian state.
0:00:13 > 0:00:17TRANSLATION:Today, in my opinion, this inner circle
0:00:17 > 0:00:20within the criminal gang has learned how to manipulate Putin
0:00:20 > 0:00:21quite effectively.
0:00:21 > 0:00:25And we've seen this demonstrated a number of times.
0:00:25 > 0:00:30Meanwhile, Russia's defence agency accuses the government
0:00:30 > 0:00:32here of intellectually impotency and calls the defence
0:00:32 > 0:00:33minister a vulgar old harpy.
0:00:33 > 0:00:34They were responding to this:
0:00:34 > 0:00:38Russia should go away - it should shut up.
0:00:38 > 0:00:40Jeremy Corbyn seems to have been more cautious.
0:00:40 > 0:00:41Was he right to be?
0:00:41 > 0:00:47Or does he risk isolating his own party?
0:00:47 > 0:00:50Also tonight, seven years to the day since the Syrian uprising began,
0:00:50 > 0:00:52thousands flee Eastern Ghouta.
0:00:52 > 0:00:55We speak to one who's remained.
0:00:55 > 0:00:59And a post-Joy Luck Club Amy Tan talks to Stephen Smith.
0:00:59 > 0:01:03I had to find something as a distraction but also I had
0:01:03 > 0:01:05to find beauty in the world.
0:01:05 > 0:01:12I had to be able to see it.
0:01:15 > 0:01:17Good evening.
0:01:17 > 0:01:19The Russians tend not to mince their words.
0:01:19 > 0:01:23Having accused the Defence Secretary of intellectual impotence,
0:01:23 > 0:01:26the Russian Ministry of Defence described Great Britain
0:01:26 > 0:01:28as "the headquarters for fake scandal", and called Russia's
0:01:28 > 0:01:30accusers "completely insignificant".
0:01:30 > 0:01:34Presumably including the Prime Minister herself.
0:01:34 > 0:01:38Russia's Foreign Minister, Sergei Lavrov, then called her
0:01:38 > 0:01:41accusations crazy, and suggested the British government
0:01:41 > 0:01:43was probably keen to deflect attention from its troubles
0:01:43 > 0:01:44over Brexit.
0:01:44 > 0:01:48May's European allies, however, have rallied to the cause.
0:01:48 > 0:01:51Tonight, we have an exclusive interview with an oligarch in exodus
0:01:51 > 0:01:53- once Russia's richest man, and once a convict
0:01:53 > 0:01:56in a Siberian gulag.
0:01:56 > 0:01:58He sees things rather differently to the government back home.
0:01:58 > 0:02:01First to Mark Urban on the latest from Salisbury and how
0:02:01 > 0:02:06the West responds now.
0:02:06 > 0:02:11What is your sense of how things are hotting up diplomatically?You have
0:02:11 > 0:02:17the war of words you had some of the quotes from, this remarkable
0:02:17 > 0:02:21statement from the Foreign Minister, Sergey Lavrov, that it is an attempt
0:02:21 > 0:02:24to deflect from Brexit. You also have the more formal business that
0:02:24 > 0:02:31has been going on, the contact with allies, issuing this statement today
0:02:31 > 0:02:37from the UK, France, Germany and the United States, pretty tough from the
0:02:37 > 0:02:42so-called Quad, it read like it was drafted from the British. Their
0:02:42 > 0:02:47language, highly likely the Russians did it, etc, but what we will see
0:02:47 > 0:02:51emerging from this and we will have further steps from Nato and possibly
0:02:51 > 0:02:54at the European summit next week is a feeling they have caught the
0:02:54 > 0:02:58Russians between two fires, eye that you did it or are you allowed
0:02:58 > 0:03:02something you had to be stolen or used by someone who should not have
0:03:02 > 0:03:07had it. It is a violation of one of the most important end of Cold War
0:03:07 > 0:03:10treaties, the chemical weapons Convention, and this is a big moment
0:03:10 > 0:03:15in terms of that wider diplomacy as well as trying to get to the bottom
0:03:15 > 0:03:21of how the Skripals were poisoned. What else have we learned about the
0:03:21 > 0:03:27investigation itself?There was a meeting tonight with the police and
0:03:27 > 0:03:29health authorities to talk to local people who were concerned and more
0:03:29 > 0:03:35came out in that. They revealed that 46 people had been to hospital
0:03:35 > 0:03:38complaining of symptoms, all had been checked but allowed to go home.
0:03:38 > 0:03:45It is only those three, the Skripal Bubba and Detective Sergeant Bailey
0:03:45 > 0:03:50who are in hospital. I also worked out, and they must be referring to
0:03:50 > 0:03:56customers in the pub and in the Zizzi restaurant, is that 131 people
0:03:56 > 0:04:05may have been exposed to the nerve agent when it was
0:04:05 > 0:04:07agent when it was on the Skripals. But we don't have much information
0:04:07 > 0:04:12on their condition, they say critical but stable, but I have been
0:04:12 > 0:04:16told they are in a coma and are on life support but are there still
0:04:16 > 0:04:21signs of life in those two people? And do we know anything more about
0:04:21 > 0:04:26where the nerve agent could have come from?For some days now we have
0:04:26 > 0:04:31been talking of the importance of the car and if you trace things
0:04:31 > 0:04:36backwards, they don't, for example, talk about traces of the nerve agent
0:04:36 > 0:04:42in the home. Some of these theories, did the door to bring something from
0:04:42 > 0:04:45Moscow, that opened up and contaminated them, you would have
0:04:45 > 0:04:49expected that in the home. The police clearly feel the car is
0:04:49 > 0:04:54critical. It was heavily contaminated from even the tow truck
0:04:54 > 0:05:01that took it away was contaminated. The feeling is, could somebody had
0:05:01 > 0:05:07got into it between the hours of 1pm and 1:40pm, this was the police
0:05:07 > 0:05:11appeal a couple of days ago. We still don't know exactly where it
0:05:11 > 0:05:16was, who could have had access to it and depending on where it was, can
0:05:16 > 0:05:20they get CCTV coverage that might show someone getting access to it?
0:05:20 > 0:05:22Thank you very much.
0:05:22 > 0:05:24Last week, Theresa May pointed the finger at Putin.
0:05:24 > 0:05:27But what if Putin himself is being controlled?
0:05:27 > 0:05:30It was a theory put to me today by Russia's most famous dissident.
0:05:30 > 0:05:32Earlier, I sat down with Michael Khodorkovsky,
0:05:32 > 0:05:36at one time Russia's richest man as the billionaire owner of Yukos
0:05:36 > 0:05:43oil who spent ten years in a Siberian gulag under Putin.
0:05:43 > 0:05:45He admitted to me the atmosphere has dramatically changed now
0:05:45 > 0:05:51for Russians living in London.
0:05:51 > 0:05:53And, in an extraordinary interview, he alleged that Russia's president
0:05:53 > 0:05:56is now surrounded by criminal gangs who may now have more
0:05:56 > 0:05:57power than Putin himself.
0:05:57 > 0:06:00I began by asking if he thought the Russian state was behind
0:06:00 > 0:06:03the poisoning of Sergei Skripal.
0:06:13 > 0:06:21Which do you think it is?
0:06:31 > 0:06:40Just explain to me, do you think the GRU now has more power potentially
0:06:40 > 0:06:43than Putin?
0:07:19 > 0:07:28So does Putin ultimately control this gang or not?
0:08:13 > 0:08:20What could the West do now to make Putin changes actions? Is it
0:08:20 > 0:08:26sanctions? Is it kicking people out, boycotting the World Cup? Do any of
0:08:26 > 0:08:32those stand a chance of having a diplomatic impact if, as you say,
0:08:32 > 0:08:36they are dealing with criminals?
0:08:51 > 0:09:00So it is about losing face? So it is about refusing him access or time on
0:09:00 > 0:09:12the international stage at a G-7 or G8 or a of leaders?
0:09:15 > 0:09:22Let me ask you bluntly, you have accused Putin of criminal behaviour,
0:09:22 > 0:09:28do you not fear for your life here?
0:09:32 > 0:09:36It has been said there are more spies from Russia in London now that
0:09:36 > 0:09:41at the height of the Cold War, do you believe that?
0:09:46 > 0:09:50What would you call them?
0:09:56 > 0:10:00You have the elections in Russia on Sunday, what should Russian people
0:10:00 > 0:10:04do when it comes to voting? Do you think the electorate control the
0:10:04 > 0:10:10outcome?
0:10:33 > 0:10:44What will make Putin feel he is done?
0:11:44 > 0:11:51This is extraordinary to hear. Your painting Putin himself as a puppet
0:11:51 > 0:11:58of terminal elements of a gang. -- criminal elements.
0:12:07 > 0:12:12Michael Khodorkovsky, thank you very much.
0:12:12 > 0:12:14Is the extent of my Russian.
0:12:14 > 0:12:18Did Jeremy Corbyn misread the mood of his party in the Commons
0:12:18 > 0:12:19yesterday when he refused to point the finger at Russia?
0:12:19 > 0:12:24Last night, a group of Labour backbenchers said it unequivocally
0:12:24 > 0:12:26accepts the Russian state's culpability for the spy poisoning.
0:12:26 > 0:12:28Overnight they were joined by senior frontbenchers
0:12:28 > 0:12:31who command the defence and foreign affairs briefs.
0:12:31 > 0:12:33Today, Corbyn clarified, stressing his condemnation
0:12:33 > 0:12:37of the attack and saying the evidence pointed towards Russia.
0:12:37 > 0:12:39But he reiterated the need not to rush ahead of evidence
0:12:39 > 0:12:42in what he refered to as the fevered atmosphere of Westminster.
0:12:42 > 0:12:44Is he right to go slowly?
0:12:44 > 0:12:48Or is more cross-party solidarity called for at a time when a foreign
0:12:48 > 0:12:50agent appears to be targeting people on British soil?
0:12:50 > 0:12:58Here's David Grossman.
0:12:58 > 0:13:00Does Labour have a Russia problem?
0:13:00 > 0:13:02That, at least, is the worry of a significant number
0:13:02 > 0:13:05of Labour backbenchers.
0:13:05 > 0:13:09That yesterday's Commons performance from Jeremy Corbyn
0:13:09 > 0:13:10was insufficiently robust, too willing to criticise
0:13:10 > 0:13:13the British government, not prepared to lay the blame
0:13:13 > 0:13:16squarely on Russia.
0:13:16 > 0:13:17This is the early day motion then?
0:13:17 > 0:13:19Yeah.
0:13:19 > 0:13:23John Woodcock is a long-term Labour critic of Mr Corbyn and he's getting
0:13:23 > 0:13:25Labour MPs to sign a Commons motion to signal support for
0:13:25 > 0:13:30the government response.
0:13:30 > 0:13:34What I think the public can be reassured on is that the vast
0:13:34 > 0:13:37majority of MPs from all sides of the house back this approach
0:13:37 > 0:13:40that the government has set out and we will stand firm together
0:13:40 > 0:13:42against the threat that Russia poses.
0:13:42 > 0:13:45Why do you think your leader has a problem being as clear
0:13:45 > 0:13:48as you would like him to be, it appears?
0:13:48 > 0:13:51I don't know and I'm sure he will come on to Newsnight
0:13:51 > 0:13:58to tell you why himself, or maybe his spokesman will.
0:13:58 > 0:14:03There is obviously, around Jeremy, for many years, been people who have
0:14:03 > 0:14:05had strong links to former Soviet Russia and
0:14:05 > 0:14:13the current regime.
0:14:15 > 0:14:19It might seem strange that such admiration of Russia from sections
0:14:19 > 0:14:21of the British left should survive the fall of communism.
0:14:21 > 0:14:26Not so, says this historian.
0:14:26 > 0:14:30I think you need to see that their view for many years
0:14:30 > 0:14:33was that because the Soviet Union was socialist, as they were,
0:14:33 > 0:14:35the Soviets were essentially their allies against the capitalist
0:14:35 > 0:14:38West, particularly America.
0:14:38 > 0:14:40That was the view that existed right the way
0:14:40 > 0:14:43through until the fall of communism.
0:14:43 > 0:14:49But that pervading dislike, hatred even, of the capitalist West,
0:14:49 > 0:14:54of America, of Nato, has stayed with the British left.
0:14:54 > 0:14:59And as it's stayed with the British left, they've actually looked
0:14:59 > 0:15:01to some of those nations like Russia as potential allies.
0:15:01 > 0:15:03So, although the Russian system has actually has morphed
0:15:03 > 0:15:07into mega capitalism, or whatever you might
0:15:07 > 0:15:10like to describe it, in point of fact, they still see
0:15:10 > 0:15:12Russia as a potential ally against the number one enemy.
0:15:12 > 0:15:13Which is?
0:15:13 > 0:15:14Which is America.
0:15:14 > 0:15:16Which is the capitalist West.
0:15:16 > 0:15:18Which is Nato.
0:15:18 > 0:15:19Good on you, Jeremy.
0:15:19 > 0:15:21You're the only one who's speaking sense.
0:15:21 > 0:15:22Thanks, mate.
0:15:22 > 0:15:23Thank you.
0:15:23 > 0:15:24Jeremy Corbyn himself was in Carlisle today.
0:15:24 > 0:15:26He denies he's been unclear or equivocal
0:15:26 > 0:15:30on the Salisbury attack.
0:15:30 > 0:15:34But he did today use a much stronger form of words.
0:15:34 > 0:15:39The evidence points towards Russia on this, therefore,
0:15:39 > 0:15:42the responsibility must be brought by those that made the weapon,
0:15:42 > 0:15:44those that brought the weapon into the country and those that
0:15:44 > 0:15:46used the weapon.
0:15:46 > 0:15:50What I was asking was questions, questions about the identity
0:15:50 > 0:15:52of the weapon, questions about the reference to the weapons
0:15:52 > 0:15:56Convention, and also the support of other allies in this.
0:15:56 > 0:15:58Those are the questions I was asking.
0:15:58 > 0:16:01That's what oppositions are there for.
0:16:01 > 0:16:05Shadow Cabinet allies of Mr Corbyn told me that it's absolutely not
0:16:05 > 0:16:09the case that Labour is in any way blind to the sinister character
0:16:09 > 0:16:13of the Russian government.
0:16:13 > 0:16:16I think it's important that people take me at my word on this.
0:16:16 > 0:16:20I am no friend of Mr Putin.
0:16:20 > 0:16:23His human rights record, his autocracy, his kleptocracy.
0:16:23 > 0:16:26But nonetheless, we have learnt in this country in recent years
0:16:26 > 0:16:32the importance of complying with international law.
0:16:32 > 0:16:35And do you think Mr Corbyn may have, in hindsight, have phrased himself
0:16:35 > 0:16:36differently yesterday?
0:16:36 > 0:16:41Do you think that might have helped?
0:16:41 > 0:16:49I think that Jeremy Corbyn is with me on this, and I am with him.
0:16:50 > 0:16:52Getting professional advice on how to clean up a mess?
0:16:52 > 0:16:55It's not clear that a single member of the public queueing for selfies
0:16:55 > 0:16:58with Mr Corbyn today had any concerns about his stance on Russia.
0:16:58 > 0:17:01Among his MPs back at Westminster, it is another story and one that may
0:17:01 > 0:17:09yet have consequences.
0:17:10 > 0:17:12That was David Grossman.
0:17:12 > 0:17:14I am now joined by Ayesha Hazarika.
0:17:14 > 0:17:16She is a writer, commentator and broadcaster who has previously
0:17:16 > 0:17:19been a special advisor to both Harriet Harman and Ed Miliband.
0:17:19 > 0:17:20Also joining us, Chris Williamson.
0:17:20 > 0:17:23He's a cheerleader for the Corbyn leadership who won back his
0:17:23 > 0:17:26Derby North seat in 2017 after losing it at the 2015
0:17:26 > 0:17:27general election.
0:17:27 > 0:17:30He said his campaign in Derby North was "a shining example of how Labour
0:17:30 > 0:17:33can win broad support in marginal constituencies whilst maintaining
0:17:33 > 0:17:36socialist principles to its core".
0:17:36 > 0:17:41A long introduction but it gives you a bit of hinterland. I'm going to
0:17:41 > 0:17:44start with you, Chris. Jeremy Corbyn seems to have firmed up his response
0:17:44 > 0:17:50today. I wonder if you think he sensed he got the mood wrong in the
0:17:50 > 0:17:55Commons yesterday.No, the Conservative backbenchers were
0:17:55 > 0:17:58indulging in bellicose rhetoric that was unhelpful and Jeremy was clear
0:17:58 > 0:18:02and statesman-like in what he said. Clearly, it looks like the evidence
0:18:02 > 0:18:06points to Russia and he made that clear. Before we leap into action we
0:18:06 > 0:18:12need to make sure, it seems to me, that we do get the facts right. We
0:18:12 > 0:18:15know the kind of crony capitalism in Russia and the kind of oligarch...
0:18:15 > 0:18:19The difference is he wasn't unequivocal and his front bench
0:18:19 > 0:18:23were, we heard from Neil Griffiths and Emily Thornberry who were in
0:18:23 > 0:18:27stark contrast to him, very clear that they should be aligned with the
0:18:27 > 0:18:32government on this and they had no hesitation...Jeremy has been on the
0:18:32 > 0:18:36right side of history for the last 35 years, on the right side of
0:18:36 > 0:18:40history on Libya, Afghanistan and in relation to Iraq.Which side of
0:18:40 > 0:18:46history is he on now? Is he on the Russian side of history?It's not
0:18:46 > 0:18:49about being nice to Russia, it's about taking a statesman-like
0:18:49 > 0:18:52approach and making sure we get our ducks in a row and get our facts
0:18:52 > 0:18:56straight. It looks pretty clear that this nerve agent came from Russia.
0:18:56 > 0:19:00What isn't clear is whether the Russian state was involved, or
0:19:00 > 0:19:06indeed some Mafi McCallum Dynavolt. The Soviet Union comprised a number
0:19:06 > 0:19:10of different countries...That's exactly what the Prime Minister was
0:19:10 > 0:19:19saying -- or indeed some
0:19:20 > 0:19:26saying -- or indeed some Mafi -- Mafia faction.All parties have
0:19:26 > 0:19:29dissidents from time to time but they are irrelevant and not in
0:19:29 > 0:19:32keeping with the vast majority of the British public and Labour Party
0:19:32 > 0:19:37members.His point was the opposition ask questions and he is
0:19:37 > 0:19:40the opposition and he did it in a moderate tone.I think he misjudged
0:19:40 > 0:19:45the tone in the Commons and I think he has sort of acknowledged that by
0:19:45 > 0:19:47his clarifying article in the Guardian today which I think is the
0:19:47 > 0:19:53right thing to have done. Because people were not completely clear
0:19:53 > 0:19:57about what he was saying. And actually, some very, very senior
0:19:57 > 0:20:01members of the Shadow Cabinet who are great supporters of Jeremy
0:20:01 > 0:20:05Corbyn, have privately said to me, they just wished that in that moment
0:20:05 > 0:20:10he had been completely crystal clear about the condemnation.What was
0:20:10 > 0:20:19holding him back do you think?I don't know. I think possibly, as
0:20:19 > 0:20:23Chris alluded to, he wants to tread cautiously. Make no mistake, there
0:20:23 > 0:20:28is nothing ignoble about proceeding with a cool head but nobody is
0:20:28 > 0:20:33suggesting a sort of rushed to war or anything. But in this
0:20:33 > 0:20:38situation... I don't know if that's entirely fair. But in this situation
0:20:38 > 0:20:41it's a big moment. You have two people who have had an attempted
0:20:41 > 0:20:45assassination and a police officer injured, imagine if the nerve agent
0:20:45 > 0:20:51had gone off in the London Tube. What did you want from?It was a
0:20:51 > 0:20:54real moment, he's made fantastic progress on domestic issues but on
0:20:54 > 0:20:57the international question come on security which is a concern to a lot
0:20:57 > 0:21:02of people, I wanted him to rise to the location and send a message he
0:21:02 > 0:21:05took this seriously and it wasn't a time for party politics, it was a
0:21:05 > 0:21:11time for the national interest.The perception David Grossman raised in
0:21:11 > 0:21:14the film was that there was a grip on the left who had this undying
0:21:14 > 0:21:17affection for all things Russian that seem not to have moved on from
0:21:17 > 0:21:25Soviet Russia to Putin be oligarch, the kleptocracy, the modern Russia
0:21:25 > 0:21:31that we know now.In relation to judging the mood of the
0:21:31 > 0:21:35parliament...Just answer that one. I will come onto that the Jeremy
0:21:35 > 0:21:38judged the mood of the nation, that's the important thing.
0:21:38 > 0:21:42Parliament gets things wrong and they got things wrong on Iraq and
0:21:42 > 0:21:49Libya.And on Syria, you could argue.I've debated with him, the
0:21:49 > 0:21:55guy is obsessed and it is utter nonsense. Jeremy and the left...You
0:21:55 > 0:21:59think he is obsessed with saying that the left has an affection for
0:21:59 > 0:22:04Russia? So there is no affection amongst...Jeremy, John MacDonald,
0:22:04 > 0:22:07the Labour Party has been calling for action against the oligarchy,
0:22:07 > 0:22:12the dirty money in this country, against money-laundering. We called
0:22:12 > 0:22:18for a version of the Magnitsky Act. If we are serious about dealing with
0:22:18 > 0:22:24this kind of crony capitalism, dealing with the Mafia state, why is
0:22:24 > 0:22:27it this government voted down attempts to bring in that
0:22:27 > 0:22:32legislation? Why is it they are in hock to Russian oligarchs? They are
0:22:32 > 0:22:37accepting millions of pounds from these characters.There is a lot in
0:22:37 > 0:22:41that and definitely starving the cache is an important part of this.
0:22:41 > 0:22:46We have been calling for that for a long time.We need to take a step
0:22:46 > 0:22:50back and where I disagree with Chris is this has come through to people,
0:22:50 > 0:22:53I was speaking to people not in our political bubble and they are
0:22:53 > 0:22:56worried about this and there are now potentially 14 other deaths that are
0:22:56 > 0:23:02being investigated as having links to the Kremlin. This is a very, very
0:23:02 > 0:23:07serious situation. Shami Chakrabarti is right. We are a party that is
0:23:07 > 0:23:10internationalist in our approach, we believe in human rights,
0:23:10 > 0:23:13international law and processes and you can't just have another country
0:23:13 > 0:23:18going around assassinating people on your soil without any consequences.
0:23:18 > 0:23:23Is that still... This is one area Jeremy Corbyn has properly stuck to
0:23:23 > 0:23:31his arms and his guts and it's a very different position to...I wish
0:23:31 > 0:23:35I had... And in some ways I admire your moral certainty about Jeremy
0:23:35 > 0:23:39being on the right side of everything. These conflicts and
0:23:39 > 0:23:44geopolitics is really difficult. There aren't any glib right and
0:23:44 > 0:23:48wrong easy solutions in all of this and I think right now you have a
0:23:48 > 0:23:52tiger by the tail and nobody knows how to handle Putin. He is a thug
0:23:52 > 0:23:58writ large across the world. Look at Ukraine, him propping up Assad in
0:23:58 > 0:24:03Syria, this isn't a person we want to be associated with.And
0:24:03 > 0:24:08Venezuela.As the opposition we need to show responsibility and
0:24:08 > 0:24:12solidarity for the national interest and not just party interest.That's
0:24:12 > 0:24:16what Jeremy did and it's not just about going along with the crowd.I
0:24:16 > 0:24:20think he missed the moment, the initial moment.I disagree.Thank
0:24:20 > 0:24:28you for joining us. Thousands of civilians have fled the Syrian town
0:24:28 > 0:24:31of Hammouriyeh and its surrounding areas in the rebel enclave of
0:24:31 > 0:24:34eastern Ghouta.
0:24:34 > 0:24:36The Observatory for Human Rights - a watchdog based in Britain -
0:24:36 > 0:24:38called it the biggest exodus of displaced people since the regime
0:24:38 > 0:24:41launched an offensive on the enclave a month ago.
0:24:41 > 0:24:43Today marks seven years since the uprising in Syria
0:24:43 > 0:24:45began when activists - once optimistic of change -
0:24:45 > 0:24:46called for a Day of Rage.
0:24:46 > 0:24:48Seven years that have transformed and wrecked a country.
0:24:48 > 0:24:51Seven years that have killed more of its people than may
0:24:51 > 0:24:54ever be fully counted.
0:25:34 > 0:25:35Allahu akbar.
0:26:08 > 0:26:11Allahu akbar.
0:26:56 > 0:26:59Looking at the history of the war in years.
0:26:59 > 0:27:01Joining me now is Ahmad Khanshour, a father and activist
0:27:01 > 0:27:02based in Eastern Ghouta.
0:27:02 > 0:27:08Thank you for joining us. You were one of the original activists who
0:27:08 > 0:27:13decided to take on that March seven years ago. Cast your mind back and
0:27:13 > 0:27:23tell us what you believe they would achieve there.Good evening, Emily.
0:27:23 > 0:27:26Well, that video brought a lot of memories to me and a lot of emotion.
0:27:26 > 0:27:32In fact, it has been a tough seven years. It was the toughest but
0:27:32 > 0:27:39despite all the violence we still have hope. We still keep faith and
0:27:39 > 0:27:43personally I never believed more in my right as a human being for
0:27:43 > 0:27:49freedom and democracy. I surely remember seven years ago I couldn't
0:27:49 > 0:27:53do it, by the way on the 15th, I did it on the 18th because I was away
0:27:53 > 0:28:06from my city. Per day when I hugged my first friend who was shot by
0:28:06 > 0:28:11Bashar Al-Assad's security services. That day I was determined that I
0:28:11 > 0:28:16shall
0:28:16 > 0:28:20shall rise up and fight for my rights.You and your family were
0:28:20 > 0:28:30caught up after that in the sarin attack of 2013.Exactly. It has many
0:28:30 > 0:28:35milestones in our journey towards where we are right now. I live in
0:28:35 > 0:28:41Eastern Ghouta. I have always loved Eastern Ghouta, as I love my country
0:28:41 > 0:28:49Syria, as you love your country, Emily. We were caught in the middle
0:28:49 > 0:28:55of the brutal siege since the beginning of 2013. We have been
0:28:55 > 0:29:02caught in the sarin attacks, which killed over 1200 people. 1200
0:29:02 > 0:29:08people, can you believe it, in the 21st-century, were killed because of
0:29:08 > 0:29:16sarin gas in Syria? Me, myself, my family, were among the people who
0:29:16 > 0:29:20suffered, wounded because of that attack. Many were lucky that they
0:29:20 > 0:29:28died. Many milestones.Did you think that would be the end of the war?
0:29:28 > 0:29:35Did you think that would be the turning point?Exactly, exactly. I
0:29:35 > 0:29:39thought the first time I held somebody who was shot by the Assad
0:29:39 > 0:29:43regime I thought that's it, nobody will allow this maniac to keep on
0:29:43 > 0:29:49killing innocent people just because they asked for some freedom. But
0:29:49 > 0:29:57nobody even cared. When the siege was very tight amongst us we had to
0:29:57 > 0:30:07eat the grass is from the land and the ground. I thought, that's it.
0:30:07 > 0:30:15Many of the world leaders drew red lines that if a -- Assad stepped on
0:30:15 > 0:30:18them they would be changed and he stepped on many of them and stepped
0:30:18 > 0:30:26on many words and nobody did anything.Let me just ask you, many
0:30:26 > 0:30:33have left Eastern Ghouta now. You have chosen to remain. Why?I will
0:30:33 > 0:30:40remain. Do you remember your first car, do you remember the first time
0:30:40 > 0:30:47you redecorated your home? Why should I leave it? Why should I put
0:30:47 > 0:30:51myself in a situation that I have to be killed under bombardment or leave
0:30:51 > 0:31:00my country and never come back? I've seen people that have left their
0:31:00 > 0:31:09cities everywhere. They were unfortunately in displacement and
0:31:09 > 0:31:14many other cities. If I leave now I know I will never come back. There
0:31:14 > 0:31:19is too much love I have for this country, for this city.Ahmad
0:31:19 > 0:31:22Khanshour, thank you for talking to us.
0:31:22 > 0:31:25No one who witnessed those first pictures of the Grenfell fire can
0:31:25 > 0:31:27forget watching how quickly those flames took hold.
0:31:27 > 0:31:30Today, investigators revealed that fire doors tested from the tower
0:31:30 > 0:31:33could only hold back flames for half the time they were supposed to.
0:31:33 > 0:31:36Experts took an undamaged door from the block and discovered it
0:31:36 > 0:31:39could withstand a blaze for merely 15 minutes - not the 30 promised.
0:31:39 > 0:31:41Today the Housing Secretary, Sajid Javid, confirmed
0:31:41 > 0:31:43the Government would carry out further tests but said
0:31:43 > 0:31:46there was no evidence that this was a systemic issue.
0:31:46 > 0:31:47Chris Cook, who led the investigation for Newsnight
0:31:47 > 0:31:54into the cladding on Grenfell, is here now to explain more.
0:31:55 > 0:31:57Tell us what you make of the significance of what they found
0:31:57 > 0:32:05today.It is a very small binding, about one door they have taken from
0:32:05 > 0:32:11Grenfell. They are testing other doors of the same design. When you
0:32:11 > 0:32:15put up a big building, you have to install component of a certain
0:32:15 > 0:32:19amount of fire resistant but the problem with this one is that it was
0:32:19 > 0:32:24sold as a 30 minute door and it is only a 15 minute door and if more of
0:32:24 > 0:32:28the doors that were similarly under resistant it can explain why the
0:32:28 > 0:32:35fire could move so quickly.What broader questions does it raise?If
0:32:35 > 0:32:39I were selling a new fire door I would have to get the design mocked
0:32:39 > 0:32:44up, take a prototype to the lab and get it tested and make sure that
0:32:44 > 0:32:49what I sold in the shops was the same as the prototype I had tested.
0:32:49 > 0:32:52This rates question about whether the testing process and the
0:32:52 > 0:32:55certification process of the blood on the market is up to scratch in
0:32:55 > 0:33:01England. -- of the goods on the market.Thank you.
0:33:01 > 0:33:04The Chinese-American writer Amy Tan has brought The Joy Luck Club
0:33:04 > 0:33:05to millions of readers around the world.
0:33:05 > 0:33:08Now she's turned her hand to a memoir, Where The Past Begins,
0:33:08 > 0:33:11which tells the stories of the women who inspired her fiction, including
0:33:11 > 0:33:12her own mother and grandmother.
0:33:12 > 0:33:14It makes for often uncomfortable reading -
0:33:14 > 0:33:16forced marriages, abandoned children, and mental illness,
0:33:16 > 0:33:18as well as her own experience of sexual assault.
0:33:18 > 0:33:24She spoke to Stephen Smith.
0:33:28 > 0:33:31The stories of my grandmother keep shifting.
0:33:31 > 0:33:39She became a widow and then she was forced to become a concubine.
0:33:39 > 0:33:42The man got into the bed, put a knife to her throat
0:33:42 > 0:33:47and said, "I will kill you if you do not submit."
0:33:47 > 0:33:50Some say that he put a knife to his own throat and said,
0:33:50 > 0:33:56"I will kill myself if you don't marry me."
0:33:56 > 0:33:58She got the best room in that house.
0:33:58 > 0:34:02She was the most powerful.
0:34:02 > 0:34:04And this is rather odd because she became the fourth
0:34:04 > 0:34:11wife, the oldest wife.
0:34:14 > 0:34:18In her memoir, Amy Tan is telling the stories of the Chinese women
0:34:18 > 0:34:20who have inspired her bestselling novels, women like her own
0:34:20 > 0:34:26grandmother and her mother.
0:34:26 > 0:34:30Her first husband was an abusive man and she tried to leave that marriage
0:34:30 > 0:34:32for a very long time.
0:34:32 > 0:34:37It was 1949 when she decided to leave.
0:34:37 > 0:34:40China was on the cusp of becoming a Communist country and literally
0:34:40 > 0:34:43on the last boat leaving Shanghai to Hong Kong she was
0:34:43 > 0:34:48able to find a ticket.
0:34:48 > 0:34:51She was not able to take her daughters so these three daughters
0:34:51 > 0:34:59she had by the first marriage were left behind.
0:35:00 > 0:35:02That harrowing experience inspired a storyline in one
0:35:02 > 0:35:04of Tan's best-known books, The Joy Luck Club,
0:35:04 > 0:35:12which was adapted into a film.
0:35:12 > 0:35:14Some people say, oh, what if your mother had
0:35:14 > 0:35:16been a happy person, not a depressed person?
0:35:16 > 0:35:21What if my father and brother hadn't died?
0:35:21 > 0:35:24I wouldn't want to have those as training ground for becoming
0:35:24 > 0:35:27a writer but I think that trauma forces a person to question life,
0:35:27 > 0:35:30to look at why these things happen and continually try to piece
0:35:30 > 0:35:38together a narrative that explains life to oneself.
0:35:40 > 0:35:44Amy Tan's mother remarried in the States and had a second
0:35:44 > 0:35:48family, including Amy herself.
0:35:48 > 0:35:50But her mother's past and her volatile emotions
0:35:50 > 0:35:53were a feature of family life.
0:35:53 > 0:35:56I came home one day and she had a cleaver and she backed me
0:35:56 > 0:36:00into the bedroom and against a wall.
0:36:00 > 0:36:06And she had a crazy look in her eye she said,
0:36:06 > 0:36:10"I'm going to kill you and then John - my little brother -
0:36:10 > 0:36:13and then I'm going to kill myself."
0:36:13 > 0:36:19I said, "Do it, just do it."
0:36:19 > 0:36:23I mean we were all a little crazy.
0:36:23 > 0:36:25And I remember that this was going to be the end
0:36:25 > 0:36:28of my life and it was so sad.
0:36:28 > 0:36:35And then a voice came out of me that said I want to live.
0:36:35 > 0:36:38Amy Tan's father was a minister and she says that as a girl
0:36:38 > 0:36:40she suffered sexual abuse at the hands of a man
0:36:40 > 0:36:43from his church.
0:36:44 > 0:36:48This man came to my house to counsel me because I had been
0:36:48 > 0:36:52caught reading Catcher in the Rye by Salinger.
0:36:52 > 0:36:55We were in my parents' bedroom and he said that I was causing
0:36:55 > 0:36:58more pain to my father, who was dying of a brain tumour,
0:36:58 > 0:37:02than the tumour was causing him.
0:37:02 > 0:37:07And I began to cry.
0:37:07 > 0:37:10And after a while he said, "Don't cry", and he started
0:37:10 > 0:37:16to tickle me and I was breathless because it was so uncomfortable.
0:37:16 > 0:37:22And he molested me and I came out of that room a different girl.
0:37:22 > 0:37:25That made me realise that we do have to talk about these,
0:37:25 > 0:37:29they are so common.
0:37:29 > 0:37:31Every single woman I know has gone through this.
0:37:31 > 0:37:34Raped at age eight.
0:37:34 > 0:37:40I was molested at age 15.
0:37:40 > 0:37:47And these things are with you for life.
0:37:47 > 0:37:50When she's not writing, Tan likes to draw.
0:37:50 > 0:37:52A distraction and a solace, she says, in times of political
0:37:52 > 0:37:59uncertainty and animosity.
0:37:59 > 0:38:02After the election I had to find something as a distraction but also
0:38:02 > 0:38:09I had to find beauty in the world.
0:38:09 > 0:38:13I had to be able to see it and really focus on it.
0:38:13 > 0:38:15I spoke a lot about my fears.
0:38:15 > 0:38:17These people in social media would say things like,
0:38:17 > 0:38:22if you don't like it, go back to China.
0:38:22 > 0:38:24You know, what right do you have to express your opinion?
0:38:24 > 0:38:28I didn't come to this page to hear what you have to say.
0:38:28 > 0:38:31And I thought, this is really funny, this is my Facebook page.
0:38:31 > 0:38:39If you don't like it, you do have the right to leave.
0:38:53 > 0:38:54Amy Tan speaking.
0:38:54 > 0:38:57Well, that's all for this evening.
0:38:57 > 0:39:00But before we go, there's a case that, when Barack
0:39:00 > 0:39:03and Michelle Obama did it in 2008, it broke out from being simply
0:39:03 > 0:39:06the greeting of rappers and basketball players.
0:39:06 > 0:39:09But we think historians will look back upon today as the pivotal
0:39:09 > 0:39:11moment at which the fist bump went truly mainstream.
0:39:11 > 0:39:14Good night.
0:39:17 > 0:39:25HIP HOP MUSIC.