0:00:00 > 0:00:00watching?I will be there! I'm so excited!You are a very lucky woman.
0:00:00 > 0:00:08Thank you very much for joining us tonight, Emma Bullimore. Now, it is
0:00:08 > 0:00:18time for Newswatch.
0:00:19 > 0:00:21Hello, welcome to Newswatch with me, Samira Ahmed.
0:00:21 > 0:00:22Today we've got a special edition of Newswatch.
0:00:22 > 0:00:25We're devoting the whole show to an exclusive interview
0:00:25 > 0:00:27with the outgoing director of news and current affairs, James Harding.
0:00:27 > 0:00:30We ask him about his record during his four years in the role,
0:00:30 > 0:00:33and what advice he has for his successor, Fran Unsworth,
0:00:33 > 0:00:39who's just been appointed.
0:00:39 > 0:00:42So, come the New Year, BBC News will have a new boss.
0:00:42 > 0:00:44James Harding is off to set up his own news media venture.
0:00:44 > 0:00:50But who is he and what challenges has he faced?
0:00:50 > 0:00:53James joined the BBC in 2013, having left his previous role as editor
0:00:53 > 0:00:55of The Times newspaper the year before.
0:00:55 > 0:00:59It was his first job in broadcasting, heading up
0:00:59 > 0:01:02the largest broadcast news operation in the world.
0:01:02 > 0:01:06He presided over BBC News during one of the most divisive times in recent
0:01:06 > 0:01:07British political history.
0:01:07 > 0:01:10The Scottish independence referendum, Brexit,
0:01:10 > 0:01:12and two general elections.
0:01:12 > 0:01:16He's also had to deal with a series of pay rows at BBC News,
0:01:16 > 0:01:18including the pay gap between male and female presenters.
0:01:18 > 0:01:21But he is credited with the appointment of the BBC's first
0:01:21 > 0:01:24female political editor, Laura Kuenssberg.
0:01:24 > 0:01:29James's replacement will be Fran Unsworth,
0:01:29 > 0:01:33a long-term BBC journalist who is currently his
0:01:33 > 0:01:35deputy, and director of the BBC World Service.
0:01:35 > 0:01:37Well, I've been speaking to James Harding and began
0:01:37 > 0:01:40by asking him about Brexit, and what he says to the many viewers
0:01:40 > 0:01:43who thought the BBC was part of the establishment
0:01:43 > 0:01:44during the EU referendum.
0:01:44 > 0:01:49Clearly favouring Remain.
0:01:49 > 0:01:51I think that the referendum was, of course, an incredibly
0:01:51 > 0:01:53polarising time, as you say, Samira.
0:01:53 > 0:01:55But actually what's interesting is, of course, we've had
0:01:55 > 0:01:59complaints from both sides and what we try to do,
0:01:59 > 0:02:02and I think when you look back and you look at the coverage,
0:02:02 > 0:02:05what we actually did do, was set about trying to explain
0:02:05 > 0:02:07what the choice was, trying to report out
0:02:07 > 0:02:08what the choice was.
0:02:08 > 0:02:11If you look back over the last few years, there have been
0:02:11 > 0:02:13an extraordinary number of democratic moments, two
0:02:13 > 0:02:15referendums, two general elections, a host of others around the world.
0:02:15 > 0:02:19I think one of the real lessons of the last few years is you can't
0:02:19 > 0:02:20predict what's going to happen.
0:02:20 > 0:02:25You can't rely on either political predictions or polls,
0:02:25 > 0:02:33and that means for us we have to do what we're here for,
0:02:33 > 0:02:38we've got to make sure that people get a sense of what the choice is.
0:02:38 > 0:02:41You mention the need for the BBC to provide informed news about that
0:02:41 > 0:02:44issue, and there was a big accusation from many viewers
0:02:44 > 0:02:46that the BBC was in fact, during the referendum,
0:02:46 > 0:02:48too timid in calling out things, notably statistical claims
0:02:48 > 0:02:53being made by one side or another that just weren't true.
0:02:53 > 0:02:56There's no question at all, the BBC and, as a news organisation,
0:02:56 > 0:03:00a group of journalists, what we set out to do
0:03:00 > 0:03:04is to understand the world presented to us and make choices.
0:03:04 > 0:03:07In that there is no question at all that the BBC has to make
0:03:07 > 0:03:11judgments, and we do.
0:03:11 > 0:03:16I suppose that on the issue of statistics, the specific question
0:03:16 > 0:03:20you're asking about numbers, actually, we made a very clear
0:03:20 > 0:03:24choice to try and challenge those numbers, question those numbers,
0:03:24 > 0:03:28and more than that, we didn't do it in a sort of ad hoc way,
0:03:28 > 0:03:31we took something called reality check, right, which was our system
0:03:31 > 0:03:34for fact checking, we really increased the resources,
0:03:34 > 0:03:38the number of people working on it and we've made that a permanent part
0:03:38 > 0:03:42of the way in which we cover politics and policy.
0:03:42 > 0:03:44So, rather than stepping back from analysing statistics
0:03:44 > 0:03:49and numbers, we've actually stepped into it.
0:03:49 > 0:03:51With hindsight, should the BBC have done representation of different
0:03:51 > 0:03:53political views differently?
0:03:53 > 0:03:55We've had many complaints from some viewers over the years about,
0:03:55 > 0:04:00for example, too much Nigel Farage.
0:04:00 > 0:04:04So, I think it's a really good and important issue, this,
0:04:04 > 0:04:09and one that we spend an enormous amount of time thinking about.
0:04:09 > 0:04:12So, if you got into the team, for example, on Question Time,
0:04:12 > 0:04:15which would be a good place to start, we are really
0:04:15 > 0:04:20careful in trying to think about where we hold the programme,
0:04:20 > 0:04:23so we get the best possible spread of audiences,
0:04:23 > 0:04:25who's on the panel,
0:04:25 > 0:04:28not just in the context of who's on the panel
0:04:28 > 0:04:32on a particular Thursday night, but who's on the panel over
0:04:32 > 0:04:34the course of a year, over the course of an entire
0:04:34 > 0:04:35political or electoral cycle.
0:04:35 > 0:04:38So, we do really think about it a great deal.
0:04:38 > 0:04:42And actually if you look over time, if you look over all of the BBC,
0:04:42 > 0:04:44what we call output, all of the BBC programmes,
0:04:44 > 0:04:47it's something that we think really carefully about.
0:04:47 > 0:04:50Actually, if it's all right with you, I think there's something
0:04:50 > 0:05:00different that is really worth thinking about.
0:05:00 > 0:05:02It's not about the representation of political parties, it's about
0:05:02 > 0:05:05the representations of views and personal points of view that
0:05:05 > 0:05:09are not necessarily captured by political parties
0:05:09 > 0:05:12but are captured by groups of people come individuals who feel
0:05:12 > 0:05:14as though their voice should be heard on the BBC.
0:05:14 > 0:05:17One of the things we've really tried to do is change that, too.
0:05:17 > 0:05:22Trust in BBC News has been eroded under your watch, hasn't it?
0:05:22 > 0:05:26Well, actually, it moves, so the truth is with trust, it moves.
0:05:26 > 0:05:30I think that obviously I arrived here on the back
0:05:30 > 0:05:33of Savile and McAlpine, and those were big issues facing the BBC
0:05:33 > 0:05:34and confidence in BBC News.
0:05:34 > 0:05:37Actually, that trust and confidence was significantly restored.
0:05:37 > 0:05:42But you're right, there's also a very profound argument
0:05:42 > 0:05:45going on around trust in the media generally in the light of what's
0:05:45 > 0:05:46happening politically.
0:05:46 > 0:05:52I don't just mean party politically, I don't just mean Brexit and Trump,
0:05:52 > 0:05:55I mean the extent to which people feel as though they're seen by,
0:05:55 > 0:05:58if you like, the system.
0:05:58 > 0:06:00By politicians, by the media. In your resignation letter,
0:06:00 > 0:06:03you said you were going to set up a media company with
0:06:03 > 0:06:04a clear point of view.
0:06:04 > 0:06:08Does that mean you think the BBC's aim of impartial news isn't working
0:06:08 > 0:06:09in the age of fake news?
0:06:09 > 0:06:15No, no, it doesn't, it means exactly the opposite,
0:06:15 > 0:06:18it means that the BBC's offer is working and should be what it is,
0:06:18 > 0:06:20which is impartial, but not necessarily taking a position.
0:06:20 > 0:06:24The public funds, we are funded by the licence fee payer,
0:06:24 > 0:06:26and everyone who pays the licence fee, I think,
0:06:26 > 0:06:29has a decent expectation
0:06:29 > 0:06:32that the BBC should operate in such a way that it reports what's
0:06:32 > 0:06:38happening but doesn't take a position.
0:06:38 > 0:06:41Doesn't take a stand in the way in which newspapers or websites
0:06:41 > 0:06:43or other individuals might do.
0:06:43 > 0:06:47No, actually, I really believe in it.
0:06:47 > 0:06:50If you look at the BBC's trust, the BBC trust
0:06:50 > 0:06:52levels are so much higher than any other news organisation.
0:06:52 > 0:06:54That's the simple fact.
0:06:54 > 0:06:57And we still have to keep on working on trust,
0:06:57 > 0:07:00but it is the thing that is the most impressive about the BBC and the
0:07:00 > 0:07:01public's relationship with the BBC.
0:07:01 > 0:07:04The first female political editor was employed under your
0:07:04 > 0:07:05watch, Laura Kuenssberg.
0:07:05 > 0:07:07Why do you think she has been getting unprecedented levels
0:07:07 > 0:07:10of vitriol and hatred?
0:07:10 > 0:07:13I don't know, I think it's shameful that she is,
0:07:13 > 0:07:18because she is an unbelievably impressive journalist.
0:07:18 > 0:07:21She is one of the most extraordinary journalists I've ever worked with.
0:07:21 > 0:07:23If you look at just the thoughtfulness, the diligence
0:07:23 > 0:07:28and the quality of the work, I'm just amazed that
0:07:28 > 0:07:30people are so personal, even if they don't like the politics
0:07:30 > 0:07:34they see in front of them.
0:07:34 > 0:07:40The fact they're willing to attack Laura, the fact
0:07:40 > 0:07:44they're willing to do that, I find is really shocking,
0:07:44 > 0:07:46and is bad for the way in which journalism is conducted
0:07:46 > 0:07:47and public debate.
0:07:47 > 0:07:51So, all I can say is that I know a few people do this.
0:07:51 > 0:07:54I do also have to say that I'm in a happy position that many people
0:07:54 > 0:07:56come up to me and say what an extraordinary
0:07:56 > 0:07:57job she's doing.
0:07:57 > 0:08:00We get lots of complaints from viewers that the BBC
0:08:00 > 0:08:04is anti-Jeremy Corbyn and focused on Labour Party divisions.
0:08:04 > 0:08:07Do you agree that the BBC has collectively failed on the whole
0:08:07 > 0:08:12to treat him fairly and seriously?
0:08:12 > 0:08:16No, I don't think that, although I do think there is a really
0:08:16 > 0:08:17interesting lesson in the coverage of Jeremy Corbyn.
0:08:17 > 0:08:20There was obviously great disquiet, great opposition to him
0:08:20 > 0:08:21within the Parliamentary Labour Party.
0:08:21 > 0:08:23And we reported that, we reported obviously not just
0:08:23 > 0:08:25the opposition to him, but the efforts that
0:08:25 > 0:08:27were made to get rid of him.
0:08:27 > 0:08:31There were leadership contests that were precisely about that.
0:08:31 > 0:08:34The question is, did we get that mix right alongside the mix
0:08:34 > 0:08:36of changes that were happening within the membership
0:08:36 > 0:08:42of the local Labour Party, and people who were not members?
0:08:42 > 0:08:48So, I would say the in course of the 2017 general election,
0:08:48 > 0:08:50we really DID capture that mood.
0:08:50 > 0:08:54If you go and you look at the way in which we were covering
0:08:54 > 0:08:55Jeremy Corbyn's rallies, we were the people saying
0:08:55 > 0:08:58the polls might say X, but look what's happening in terms
0:08:58 > 0:08:59of the rallies.
0:08:59 > 0:09:02We also, I like to think, really got to grips with the questions that
0:09:02 > 0:09:05were the heart of Jeremy Corbyn's proposal to the country
0:09:05 > 0:09:06in the nature of the manifesto.
0:09:06 > 0:09:08Once again trying to examine the choice, rather
0:09:08 > 0:09:16than the horse race.
0:09:16 > 0:09:18But there is a question which is, from the time
0:09:18 > 0:09:22Jeremy Corbyn was elected
0:09:22 > 0:09:24through to 2017, there are obviously changes within some of those
0:09:24 > 0:09:26constituency Labour Party...
0:09:26 > 0:09:28Parts of the constituency Labour Party, and a politics
0:09:28 > 0:09:30element of that that is also really interesting.
0:09:30 > 0:09:32But also to the mood of certain parts of the electorate,
0:09:32 > 0:09:34and particularly young people.
0:09:34 > 0:09:37And getting to that and making sure we continue to get to that I think
0:09:37 > 0:09:38is really important.
0:09:38 > 0:09:40Briefly, do you have any regrets?
0:09:40 > 0:09:42Oh, yeah, I'm sure I have a fair few.
0:09:42 > 0:09:44I'm not sure that Newswatch is the most brilliant place to,
0:09:44 > 0:09:46sort of, unburden myself of all of them.
0:09:46 > 0:09:47I think it is.
0:09:47 > 0:09:48Licence fee payers...
0:09:48 > 0:09:50All right, let's have a go at it.
0:09:50 > 0:09:57I think that the...
0:09:57 > 0:10:00The biggest issues I've got are the one I raise about how
0:10:00 > 0:10:03are we going to change an organisation when the behaviour
0:10:03 > 0:10:05of people around news is changing so fast?
0:10:05 > 0:10:08So, that's a long way of saying, we still have huge audiences
0:10:08 > 0:10:16for the 6pm and 10pm News.
0:10:16 > 0:10:18The Today programme, 5 live and Newsbeat.
0:10:18 > 0:10:21Yet we can also see people changing the way in they consume news.
0:10:21 > 0:10:23Are we moving fast enough to make those changes?
0:10:23 > 0:10:25And not just in terms of the devices, also
0:10:25 > 0:10:26the way we tell stories.
0:10:26 > 0:10:28Your successor, Fran Unsworth, is an internal candidate.
0:10:28 > 0:10:30Which some might say reflects the decision to go
0:10:30 > 0:10:32a different way for the BBC.
0:10:32 > 0:10:37Do you have any advice for her?
0:10:37 > 0:10:40Well, I chose Fran when I joined as my deputy, and she has been
0:10:40 > 0:10:43an extraordinary person to work with.
0:10:43 > 0:10:46For people who don't know her, Fran has worked at the BBC
0:10:46 > 0:10:48for pretty much her entire career and knows and understands it.
0:10:48 > 0:10:51Most recently she was running the BBC World Service.
0:10:51 > 0:10:53What you see with Fran is an incredibly thoughtful
0:10:53 > 0:10:55manager of people.
0:10:55 > 0:11:01A really intelligent judge of news, and a fantastic
0:11:01 > 0:11:04ambassador for the BBC.
0:11:04 > 0:11:07But most of all, she has the capacity to enable great people
0:11:07 > 0:11:12to do exceptional work.
0:11:12 > 0:11:15And when you are the director of news and current affairs,
0:11:15 > 0:11:18that's the thing you really want to do, it's not what you do.
0:11:18 > 0:11:24The leadership of the organisation is enabling other people to do great
0:11:24 > 0:11:27things and no-one does that better in my experience, than Fran.
0:11:27 > 0:11:29So I think she will be a brilliant director of news
0:11:29 > 0:11:30and current affairs.
0:11:30 > 0:11:33I've loved working with her and a great many people
0:11:33 > 0:11:34in the BBC feel the same way.
0:11:34 > 0:11:35Thank you, James Harding.
0:11:35 > 0:11:36Thank you very much.
0:11:36 > 0:11:38And that's all from us this week.
0:11:38 > 0:11:41If you want to share your thoughts on what James Harding had to say
0:11:41 > 0:11:44or any aspect of BBC News and current affairs,
0:11:44 > 0:11:45you can call us on...
0:11:45 > 0:11:47Or e-mail...
0:11:47 > 0:11:49You can find us on Twitter...
0:11:49 > 0:11:52And do have a look at our website for previous interviews.
0:11:52 > 0:11:56The address for that is...
0:11:56 > 0:12:01We're off now till the New Year, but do join us again on January 5th.
0:12:01 > 0:12:04Until then, from all of us on the programme, have a very
0:12:04 > 0:12:08Merry Christmas and a happy New Year.