:00:00. > :00:15.On the show republicans kill again. How should
:00:16. > :00:29.we respond? A sugar tax, how sweet is that? Music from level 40 two.
:00:30. > :00:32.And this live studio audience. -- Level 42.
:00:33. > :00:55.APPLAUSE Good evening. Thank you for joining
:00:56. > :01:03.us. Have a look at this man. His name is Adrian. He was 52 and a dad
:01:04. > :01:08.of three children. He was a prison officer and he died yesterday, 11
:01:09. > :01:13.days after being involved in a officer and he died yesterday, 11
:01:14. > :01:17.dissident car bomb attack. The Northern Ireland prison service said
:01:18. > :01:20.his family are devastated and beyond shocked
:01:21. > :01:20.his family are devastated and beyond us to talk
:01:21. > :01:31.his family are devastated and beyond together. How should we, as a
:01:32. > :01:45.society, respond to the dissidents? A Republican Sinn Fein president is
:01:46. > :01:54.here tonight. Let me start with you. I am just wondering what it
:01:55. > :01:58.achieves, a man, that man, let's personalise him, dying. I am
:01:59. > :02:09.wondering how that gets closer to any goal? Absolutely. Any death is a
:02:10. > :02:15.tragedy -- tragedy. It diminishes society itself. What we need to do,
:02:16. > :02:24.it makes it all the more incumbent on those of us engaged in politics
:02:25. > :02:31.to create the context and create the basis for moving that cycle. We have
:02:32. > :02:36.had that in the country for the last 40 years. We need to look at the
:02:37. > :02:41.root causes so that they are addressed once and for all. You
:02:42. > :02:45.would have no difficulty in saying to people who did that, to the
:02:46. > :02:52.dissidents who did that, that gets you know closer to any political
:02:53. > :02:56.goal? What I am saying is, we have a cycle, unfortunately, in this
:02:57. > :03:00.country. Over the last 90 years we have had five agreements and not had
:03:01. > :03:09.a settlement. There has not been a full, final, lasting just
:03:10. > :03:15.settlement. -- and just settlement. I have not talked about any death.
:03:16. > :03:21.There is a specific man, a father and husband, who has lost his life.
:03:22. > :03:27.I able to say to people that killed him, it has not got them any closer
:03:28. > :03:31.to their political goal. As I said at the outset, Stephen, every debt,
:03:32. > :03:39.every single loss of life is a tragedy. I am not going to shout at
:03:40. > :03:45.you tonight all be aggressive but I want you to listen to the question.
:03:46. > :03:50.Do you think a death like that achieves any kind of proximity to a
:03:51. > :03:54.united Ireland? Any death diminishes, including the death of
:03:55. > :04:01.this particular man. It diminishes all of us as human beings, as a
:04:02. > :04:07.society. My question is focused. The people who did that think they may
:04:08. > :04:11.be doing it in the name of achieving a united Ireland. I am sitting,
:04:12. > :04:16.trying to stretch my imagination to a point of understanding how it
:04:17. > :04:23.does. Can you say to those people tonight, or not, that that man's
:04:24. > :04:29.death gets them any closer to a united Ireland? It does not, does
:04:30. > :04:34.it? Any death we have suffered over the last decades, none of them lead
:04:35. > :04:41.us any further anywhere. What we need, and this is what I am
:04:42. > :04:50.saying... Why kill? We need to look at the political context. It is not
:04:51. > :04:55.a context. As long as that remains the case, the cycle is not being
:04:56. > :05:03.broken. There is no context, the man is being dead -- is dead. There have
:05:04. > :05:09.been many deaths. Each and every one of them is a tragedy, tragedy for
:05:10. > :05:16.the families and the community and society. What I am saying is we can
:05:17. > :05:19.reduce it. That is by. Ultimately they are all individuals coming
:05:20. > :05:25.human beings. What we need to do is look at the round, otherwise we're
:05:26. > :05:31.back into this kind of politics of condemnation. That does not lead us
:05:32. > :05:36.anywhere. Any to deal with the issues and create a context where we
:05:37. > :05:41.can finally break that cycle and move us forward to the kind of
:05:42. > :05:46.lasting and just settlement for all the people of Ireland. Sometimes on
:05:47. > :05:54.a show like this I would ask a question ten, 15, 20 times. Do you
:05:55. > :06:02.condemn his death? I'm not here to condone or condemn. I am not here to
:06:03. > :06:07.speak on behalf... I'm here to make a political analysis on what is
:06:08. > :06:14.happening in terms of the situation. I lied to you. I will ask you one
:06:15. > :06:19.more time, do you condemn the death? I am neither here to condone or
:06:20. > :06:24.condemn. It does not lead us any further down the road. We need to
:06:25. > :06:29.deal with the situation, the kind of issues that lie at the cause of
:06:30. > :06:34.conflict in our country, which leads to the kind of tragedies we have had
:06:35. > :06:42.witnessed, including this latest one. Until we arrive at point,
:06:43. > :06:47.unfortunately... Do you just write off on people who would support file
:06:48. > :06:54.on this? Do you just write off murders as some kind of collateral
:06:55. > :07:01.damage? The heartbreak that there is. That human reaction, that human
:07:02. > :07:12.motion that the majority of us have. It is repulsing what happened to
:07:13. > :07:19.that man. Is he collateral damage? Certainly not. All deaths are a
:07:20. > :07:23.tragedy. Any rational being wants to see an end to violence in our
:07:24. > :07:27.society. The Irish people can also choose of the Irish people, have
:07:28. > :07:30.suffered enough of that what I am saying, and Ira Peter to game, we
:07:31. > :07:37.need to break that cycle. There has been a cycle in Irish history, to
:07:38. > :07:45.break the cycle by addressing the root causes of the conflict. The
:07:46. > :07:47.root causes of the conflict in our country are British occupation of
:07:48. > :07:52.part of the country until we reach a point where the issues are being
:07:53. > :07:58.addressed in a realistic manner and not ignoring damn. The option this
:07:59. > :08:05.country has... I am listening to you very calmly. The logic behind people
:08:06. > :08:09.like you and others, and I am not suggesting you are responsible for
:08:10. > :08:15.this man's death but you will not condemn it. The logic is that all of
:08:16. > :08:19.these people who voted for the Good Friday Agreement, unless all of
:08:20. > :08:24.these people who voted that it would be a democratic way forward, that
:08:25. > :08:29.would determine the status of Northern Ireland, Ireland, call it
:08:30. > :08:34.what you will. Actually, the people who are the dissidents and people
:08:35. > :08:43.like you, your logic is, you break the cycle by giving us a united
:08:44. > :08:49.Ireland and that is it. It is about giving the Irish people these same
:08:50. > :08:53.right that is inherent to all nations, the right to determine
:08:54. > :09:01.their future as a unit. That has been denied them. It was denied them
:09:02. > :09:05.in 1998 and continually since then. Paul... I do not know how anybody
:09:06. > :09:11.can sit here and not condemn taking the lives of Adrian Ismay. If you
:09:12. > :09:16.are not in a position to condemn that death, you are not in a
:09:17. > :09:20.position to be part of the future of Northern Ireland. That is how we, as
:09:21. > :09:25.a society, have to deal with the people that are responsible for
:09:26. > :09:31.this. Our community must unite and condemn, without question, the
:09:32. > :09:35.murder of Adrian Ismay. He put on a uniform to defend everybody in
:09:36. > :09:39.Northern Ireland, not Protestants not Catholics, but all of us. He
:09:40. > :09:50.worked to reform people and make this place a better place. They are
:09:51. > :09:53.not in a position to condemn his death. I think that is a despicable
:09:54. > :10:00.place for you to be in and you should be ashamed of that. The death
:10:01. > :10:06.of any person, be it Adrian Ismay or anybody else, is a tragedy. It is a
:10:07. > :10:12.tragedy for everyone concerned. All of these deaths, that is the tragedy
:10:13. > :10:25.of our nation and our country that has been enjoyed. -- end George will
:10:26. > :10:31.stop there is a cycle that have to be broken. We all want to see an end
:10:32. > :10:36.to this kind of conflict in our country. We want a brighter future
:10:37. > :10:40.for all sections of the Irish people. What do we do about the
:10:41. > :10:46.dissidents? What do we do? There is not much we can do. You are in a
:10:47. > :10:51.very weak position tonight. You represent a very small number of
:10:52. > :10:53.people. You say we need a settlement on the issues of
:10:54. > :10:58.people. You say we need a settlement British occupation, as you call it.
:10:59. > :11:04.people. You say we need a settlement There was a settlement in 98,
:11:05. > :11:11.people. You say we need a settlement You are in this tiny group of
:11:12. > :11:13.people, this tiny bit of thought that says, we understand the proper
:11:14. > :11:16.destiny of that says, we understand the proper
:11:17. > :11:23.anyone else. That that says, we understand the proper
:11:24. > :11:28.other thing is, I have forgotten. that says, we understand the proper
:11:29. > :11:30.is so appalling. You are using the same language now that Gerry
:11:31. > :11:33.is so appalling. You are using the and Martin McGuinness were using,
:11:34. > :11:41.round about and Martin McGuinness were using,
:11:42. > :11:42.logic did impress the people in that country at that time and they went
:11:43. > :11:46.with country at that time and they went
:11:47. > :11:50.They eventually came round to saying country at that time and they went
:11:51. > :11:57.there is a settlement needed, a cannot be a compromise. You are
:11:58. > :12:01.saying a united Ireland or nothing. It is worth while allowing people,
:12:02. > :12:04.endorsing people, carrying out murder to promote that when they
:12:05. > :12:09.have no prospect of actually achieving it.
:12:10. > :12:18.That is one of the primary conditions. There is no
:12:19. > :12:22.That is one of the primary success. Do you accept that? First
:12:23. > :12:31.of all, I'm not to promote or defend armed action by any group or
:12:32. > :12:38.organisation. If the IDF had shot a Republican, you would be condemning
:12:39. > :12:41.that. You would not condemn anything? The politics of
:12:42. > :12:51.condemnation in the past did not get us anywhere. Regarding democracy of
:12:52. > :12:58.this, what we had in 1998 was two votes in two different states.
:12:59. > :13:04.The late Mo Mowlam let the cat out of the bag before the referendum
:13:05. > :13:10.when she said that the vote that would count would the one that will
:13:11. > :13:21.take place here in the six counties. I want to bring in Raymond McCartney
:13:22. > :13:26.who is in our Foyle studio. What would you say to people like Des
:13:27. > :13:33.Dalton? I want to send out the strong message that what happened to
:13:34. > :13:37.Adrian Ismay was wrong. Yesterday, when we heard that he had died, I
:13:38. > :13:43.think what we have to say to people is that we should stop and then the
:13:44. > :13:49.challenge for people like Des is simple. He has to accept that there
:13:50. > :13:53.is no issue in terms of the political institutions programmes in
:13:54. > :13:59.front of us, which cannot be resolved by peaceful and democratic
:14:00. > :14:04.means. But they seem not saying now what you said 20 years ago, and
:14:05. > :14:07.people like you, and Martin McGuinness who is now helping to
:14:08. > :14:12.lead this country? Why should they not sit back and think to
:14:13. > :14:18.themselves, this is exactly what Sinn Fein was saying years ago? In
:14:19. > :14:23.1998 there was an historic negotiation which everyone with a
:14:24. > :14:27.mandate on the island of Ireland sat round the table, we sat down with
:14:28. > :14:29.the British government and come up with a political framework which
:14:30. > :14:35.would allow everyone, without prejudice and precondition to
:14:36. > :14:41.determine how we would go forward. But until there was a political game
:14:42. > :14:48.that you agreed with, you shared the philosophy of people like Des. When
:14:49. > :14:51.you say "Until", but was a realisation that there was a
:14:52. > :14:56.stalemate, when the British government in particular knew that
:14:57. > :15:01.there had to be a political negotiation and in that, there would
:15:02. > :15:05.be a political framework. That allowed everyone, politically, to
:15:06. > :15:11.pursue their objectives by peaceful and democratic means. That is when
:15:12. > :15:15.the compromise was made. And we saw the mandate to go forward and in
:15:16. > :15:19.increasing numbers across the island, that has been endorsed by
:15:20. > :15:24.people who would call themselves either Republican or Nationalist. I
:15:25. > :15:29.am trying to get my head around it, you tell me, you are sitting in your
:15:30. > :15:39.living room now, and this is what well-placed Celsius have told the
:15:40. > :15:45.BBC, -- that some of the dissident prisoners celebrated by smoking
:15:46. > :15:53.cigars to celebrate the death of a father. What an earth is the
:15:54. > :15:58.mindset? How on earth do you start talking to people like that? What
:15:59. > :16:03.kind of human being does that? Can you attribute a descriptor to human
:16:04. > :16:10.beings who celebrate the death of a father, man and husband? Subhuman.
:16:11. > :16:16.That is what it is for those individuals to celebrate the death
:16:17. > :16:20.of Adrian. I spoke to a prison officers who was working there who
:16:21. > :16:25.witnessed that. He witnessed that. What did he say? He said,
:16:26. > :16:30.individuals smoking cigars, singing party tunes, is what was happening.
:16:31. > :16:36.Goading prison officer is about the death of a dream. As they did the
:16:37. > :16:43.death of David Black. -- of Adrian. I find it disgusting that
:16:44. > :16:48.individuals would do that. And there is no justification both now for the
:16:49. > :16:53.death of Adrian and his killing and there is no justification whenever
:16:54. > :16:57.Raymond McCartney and Sinn Fein was supporting the Provisional IRA.
:16:58. > :17:02.There is no justification for the taking of life in the pursuit of
:17:03. > :17:06.political aims. I have to explain to you all at home, usually we have
:17:07. > :17:13.lots of the audience wanting to talk about the debates. We don't have
:17:14. > :17:18.that many tonight because part of what people do when they instil fear
:17:19. > :17:24.in people in the community, there is a man who wants to speak to us. Go
:17:25. > :17:31.ahead. I would like to speak to the member from Republican Sinn Fein.
:17:32. > :17:37.Des Dalton. You will not condemn the killing because you want the cycle
:17:38. > :17:42.to break. Because you want a 32- County Ireland, but there are lots
:17:43. > :17:50.of people from the unionist background who don't want to end
:17:51. > :17:56.this, we want partition to remain. Do we not -- do we need to be dealt
:17:57. > :18:08.with like Adrian Ismay N order to break the cycle, so? -- in order to.
:18:09. > :18:15.Absolutely not. Republicans and Republican Sinn Fein were very
:18:16. > :18:20.mindful and conscious of that. That is why, for instance, the proposals
:18:21. > :18:28.contained in the document for a new Ireland which were formulated the
:18:29. > :18:31.early 1970s, and the talks in 1974 with representatives of unionism...
:18:32. > :18:36.You're reminiscing. Answer the question. The Republicans are
:18:37. > :18:43.conscious of the need that all sections of the Irish people are
:18:44. > :18:47.owners of that Irish nation and need to be part of building that new
:18:48. > :18:52.Ireland. They need to be part of that conversation, that process, an
:18:53. > :18:57.essential part, and not frozen out of it as they were to a large
:18:58. > :19:01.degree, in many of the various agreements that were put in place
:19:02. > :19:05.over the last 20 years. As I understand it, you said you could
:19:06. > :19:10.not condemn the killing of this man, this father, there's husband,
:19:11. > :19:14.because of this cycle. I am wondering if a lot of unionists, who
:19:15. > :19:20.really want to keep Northern Ireland, I would come from that
:19:21. > :19:23.background myself, I defend the Good Friday agreement and I am glad to
:19:24. > :19:30.see Sinn Fein in government, they have a mandate to be there, but I'm
:19:31. > :19:33.rather scared when people start killing people who they perceive as
:19:34. > :19:39.standing in the way of them getting their 32- County Ireland, that they
:19:40. > :19:43.are next. That is what worries me. Perhaps, maybe, if you tried it at
:19:44. > :19:49.the ballot box, to see if you got Perhaps, maybe, if you tried it at
:19:50. > :19:59.mandate, then you would have as much right as anybody else to enter
:20:00. > :20:04.Stormont or the Dail or anywhere, and then, perhaps through
:20:05. > :20:06.Stormont or the Dail or anywhere, you can break the cycle. If we
:20:07. > :20:07.Stormont or the Dail or anywhere, distance it from Des Dalton, can I
:20:08. > :20:12.remind you that some distance it from Des Dalton, can I
:20:13. > :20:15.you're trying to communicate with our the human beings. Paul called
:20:16. > :20:17.them subhuman. Somebody on the radio this morning called them monsters.
:20:18. > :20:22.Those people actually jump up and this morning called them monsters.
:20:23. > :20:24.down and celebrate the death of this morning called them monsters.
:20:25. > :20:28.human being. How can you communicate with them's how can you
:20:29. > :20:30.human being. How can you communicate about democracy. Shakespeare said,
:20:31. > :20:32.human being. How can you communicate if you pick me, will I not laugh?
:20:33. > :20:37.They must be if you pick me, will I not laugh?
:20:38. > :20:42.something happened to them or if you pick me, will I not laugh?
:20:43. > :20:50.should go down that road and try and educate these people. We appreciate
:20:51. > :20:55.your time this evening. Going back to how negotiations
:20:56. > :20:55.your time this evening. Going back British government at some stage
:20:56. > :21:04.started talking to British government at some stage
:21:05. > :21:09.remember these dissidents are tiny, absolutely tiny. Let's not give them
:21:10. > :21:13.any credibility beyond the tiny fraction of existence that they
:21:14. > :21:14.any credibility beyond the tiny Can you see any situation
:21:15. > :21:16.any credibility beyond the tiny people should reach out and try to
:21:17. > :21:23.negotiate with them, speak to them? people should reach out and try to
:21:24. > :21:28.Lo, first of all, Stephen, I don't know if Adrian Ismay's widow or
:21:29. > :21:33.three children are watching this programme but my heart goes out to
:21:34. > :21:38.that family, because the idea that we could be talking about dialogue
:21:39. > :21:41.when Adrian was brutally murdered, and that is what we are put -- we
:21:42. > :21:45.are talking about, the murder and that is what we are put -- we
:21:46. > :21:51.very decent man who cannot be part of any dialogue now, because some
:21:52. > :21:56.lunatics, totally deranged eagle, have taken it into their own hands
:21:57. > :22:00.and killed him. -- people. Let me be very clear. Northern Ireland has
:22:01. > :22:05.devolved politics. I am saying this very clear. Northern Ireland has
:22:06. > :22:09.in London looking at that place that I have only admiration and love for.
:22:10. > :22:15.And I absolutely condemn what has happened to him in the same way that
:22:16. > :22:19.I really go through a day when I did remember, in 2009, learning that
:22:20. > :22:24.Stephen Carroll had been murdered, and in the same way, it served no
:22:25. > :22:29.purpose and should be treated for what it is, which is murder, and
:22:30. > :22:36.achieve Constable is absolutely right to be conducting a murder
:22:37. > :22:42.inquiry. -- the Chief Constable. So what do you do with these
:22:43. > :22:45.dissidents? Yew tree them in the way that they should be treated, which
:22:46. > :22:52.is that they are criminals. -- you treat them. You have law and order
:22:53. > :22:56.in Northern Ireland, and nobody is above the law. People who wish to be
:22:57. > :23:01.above the law must face the law, must face justice and they need to
:23:02. > :23:04.go to prison and serve sentences for the crimes which they have
:23:05. > :23:09.committed, which is nothing to do with politics. It is a brutal murder
:23:10. > :23:14.of a decent man who served the community of Northern Ireland, and
:23:15. > :23:17.tonight, the tragedy is that Sharon and three daughters are against all
:23:18. > :23:24.at home, because some people thought that they were better than the law,
:23:25. > :23:28.and they should face the law and they should base their crime and
:23:29. > :23:36.they should go to prison. APPLAUSE
:23:37. > :23:44.What would you, Des Dalton, say to Shaun Woodward? I would say that his
:23:45. > :23:48.government's and estate's involvement in Ireland has been the
:23:49. > :23:52.root cause of violence over many decades and centuries. Until it is
:23:53. > :23:56.accepted that they don't have a positive, neutral role to play in
:23:57. > :24:05.Ireland, can be then create a space within which we can address the
:24:06. > :24:08.concerns of this gentleman RPO,... Until all sections of the Aries
:24:09. > :24:11.people are allowed to express their view about the kind of Ireland that
:24:12. > :24:19.we wish to live in, and that involve the dialogue of all sections,
:24:20. > :24:23.Protestant, Catholic and the centre, everybody has to be involved in that
:24:24. > :24:35.and that is an essential and integral part of this. You have to
:24:36. > :24:42.hear that. Gerry Adams and others in time heard that. If you do not hear
:24:43. > :24:45.that and don't understand that they are British and that they define
:24:46. > :24:49.themselves as British, and that they have a right to, no matter if you
:24:50. > :24:54.disagree, then you will never get any dialogue with them at all. There
:24:55. > :24:59.is something that that is annoying me and that is the use of language
:25:00. > :25:04.like subhuman and deranged. I don't think that is particularly helpful.
:25:05. > :25:10.There was a danger in the political process that, by having, what the
:25:11. > :25:14.dissidents are doing today and killing people like Adrian Ismay,
:25:15. > :25:20.and trying to kill others, which is stupid, pointless and futile and
:25:21. > :25:23.brutal exercise, is not different in character and nature from what was
:25:24. > :25:29.done by the paramilitaries before the peace process. It is the same.
:25:30. > :25:32.And there were instances, then, of people cheering that murder. So it
:25:33. > :25:37.is not that different in any respect. But an example has been
:25:38. > :25:41.set. An example was set with the peace process that we will talk, we
:25:42. > :25:47.will deal with people, we can find common ground with them, we can take
:25:48. > :25:49.the killer, the one that the previously called the range, and
:25:50. > :26:01.treat them like a civilised all edition. -- politicians. What
:26:02. > :26:05.happened is subhuman, it is beneath contempt. A normal human being does
:26:06. > :26:09.not take the life of another and the pursuit of political objectives. And
:26:10. > :26:12.I take issue with what you said, in that you need to have the prospect
:26:13. > :26:17.of a successful outcome to have a just war. That does not justify
:26:18. > :26:23.murder. It did not justify it in the past. I had a close family relative
:26:24. > :26:29.of mine whose car was riddled with 13 bullets by the Provisional IRA
:26:30. > :26:35.because he was a prison officer. I was one of the people he was most
:26:36. > :26:41.adamant in standing against the Provisional IRA, inside republican
:26:42. > :26:44.communities. I am trying to make an argument to Des that aside from
:26:45. > :26:47.there for loss of these that he is dealing with, all of their theology,
:26:48. > :26:52.there has to be some prospect in his own mind of success, and there
:26:53. > :26:57.isn't. We need to have a recognition, and this is where I
:26:58. > :27:02.want to get active tonight, because Adrian's wife has lost a husband,
:27:03. > :27:07.her children have lost their father, and we have to bear in mind the
:27:08. > :27:11.sacrifice that Adrian's father has made, and prison officers have made
:27:12. > :27:16.for decades, and often I feel like they are the forgotten service. In
:27:17. > :27:19.Northern Ireland, we have moved forward, people enjoy a relative
:27:20. > :27:26.peace, but there are still a group of people in our community, prison
:27:27. > :27:30.officer and police offers, who do not enjoy that same liberty that
:27:31. > :27:33.others have. We need to stand in solidarity and show support for them
:27:34. > :27:38.and collectively stand united against the ideology being espoused
:27:39. > :27:41.by the Republican Sinn Fein, because it is an acceptable, and nobody
:27:42. > :27:52.should countenance it. What is your message to the
:27:53. > :27:59.dissidents? It is clear, that it should stop. But we are talking
:28:00. > :28:03.about housing, education and health, the primary objective of
:28:04. > :28:09.Republicans, it cannot be resolved by peaceful and democratic means.
:28:10. > :28:13.The message has to go out very clearly that, since then, the Sinn
:28:14. > :28:18.Fein mandate has increased because people are saying that what Sinn
:28:19. > :28:25.Fein is doing is right and proper, providing leadership and direction.
:28:26. > :28:30.We have not compromised in our hope and intention to bring this about by
:28:31. > :28:38.peaceful and democratic means. I will leave it there. Give our guests
:28:39. > :28:43.a round of applause. ) I think what we need to do, there is more
:28:44. > :28:47.territory in that. We need to continue to discuss that. We tried
:28:48. > :28:56.to give you lots of platforms on the BBC to do that. You can go to our
:28:57. > :29:00.Twitter page and our Facebook page. It is a discussion we need to
:29:01. > :29:11.continue to have. Now we will go into a more light-hearted item. Two
:29:12. > :29:17.special guests have come off the stage of the grand Opera house.
:29:18. > :29:28.Please welcome Jason Munford and filled Jupiters.
:29:29. > :29:47.-- Phil Jupitus. I am in the mood for a laugh! How did they link into
:29:48. > :29:52.us? What is it like? The car flies. You have seen the
:29:53. > :30:06.us? What is it like? The car flies. I play the part of Dick Van
:30:07. > :30:11.us? What is it like? The car flies. -- Trudie Scrumptious. Is the
:30:12. > :30:20.Belfast crowd different from others? There is an energy about Belfast.
:30:21. > :30:32.Absolutely. The first time I ever came here was about 1990. I got
:30:33. > :30:43.Absolutely. The first time I ever taken to Lavery's. That got a laugh!
:30:44. > :30:54.People came up and said, I had just one -- done one thing on television
:30:55. > :30:59.they go, would you like a drink? I go, I have four here. I said, would
:31:00. > :31:03.you like a drink question by the end of the evening I have a small
:31:04. > :31:09.brewery lined up along the bar. They closed the pub and I had to abandon
:31:10. > :31:14.all these pipes. It is a very weird evening. I remember playing the
:31:15. > :31:17.Empire when I was on the circuit. That was an odd feeling to come
:31:18. > :31:33.Empire when I was on the circuit. and... It depends how you pitch it
:31:34. > :31:38.gags. I did a gig two years ago, the Friendship Festival, the Peace
:31:39. > :31:48.Festival. I had to come back from Afghanistan. It was interesting. I
:31:49. > :31:50.thought, this will be a fun story about my time in Afghanistan. I have
:31:51. > :31:55.thought, this will be a fun story said, I did some gigs in
:31:56. > :32:01.Afghanistan. In England you get an immediate round of applause. I
:32:02. > :32:10.Afghanistan. In England you get an booed. Did they do you? In a panto,
:32:11. > :32:15.jolly way. It was what was expected. I was going, the Taliban won't stop
:32:16. > :32:22.at the water, folks. I remember getting heckled by a guy at the
:32:23. > :32:27.waterfront. I am sure this is a typical Belfast thing that I had
:32:28. > :32:31.never heard it before. We had gone to the Titanic exhibition. It was
:32:32. > :32:36.great fun. On the stage that night, I thought, I would take the Mickey
:32:37. > :32:42.out of the Titanic and have a bit of fun. Most people went along with it.
:32:43. > :32:51.I have a picture of both of you at the Titanic. That is us. What is
:32:52. > :32:56.that? Just getting into the vibe of the Titanic. He would not call me
:32:57. > :33:03.jack all day. I do draw him like a Frenchwoman. I was taking the Mickey
:33:04. > :33:07.out of it and having a bit of fun. The guys said, leave the Titanic
:33:08. > :33:12.alone. He was genuinely angry about it. I said, I am not having a go but
:33:13. > :33:19.what you built was not great, was it? Probably not the best thing to
:33:20. > :33:24.say. If you told me to name one of the worst ships, it would be up
:33:25. > :33:29.there. I was digging a hole. He said, it was all right when it left
:33:30. > :33:35.here. I had never heard that before but it was a brilliant heckle. We
:33:36. > :33:41.both know you from the television. That is completely different from
:33:42. > :33:47.being on the road, being on the heck it -- on the circuit. We are in
:33:48. > :33:54.theatre now and it is different rules. I have been told to have lost
:33:55. > :33:58.a stone and a half. I knew I needed to lose weight. You know you need to
:33:59. > :34:05.say, my hand was getting too fat to fit into a Pringles tube. I've
:34:06. > :34:10.thought, sort this! When you are out of breath after your dinner and
:34:11. > :34:16.stuff like that. I need to sort it. Coming into the show, there is a
:34:17. > :34:21.dance routine call the old bamboo. Dick Van Dyke expertly does that. He
:34:22. > :34:26.learnt it in a week. It ticks me for months. That is as in the middle of
:34:27. > :34:34.it. It is just a great routine. It is so full on. So energetic. It is
:34:35. > :34:38.crazy. I have to basically dance around one bed with Michelle
:34:39. > :34:45.Collins. That is made for the night. I products about a bit in my
:34:46. > :34:50.pyjamas. It is like being at home. Both of you have kids. Is it hard to
:34:51. > :34:57.be out on the road, leaving the kids behind? My kids are 25 and 22 and
:34:58. > :35:04.one of them have emigrated. He has well gone. They do their own thing.
:35:05. > :35:12.I like the travelling around because you get to see things. I like
:35:13. > :35:19.Belfast a lot. People are always... You ask on Twitter and say, is there
:35:20. > :35:25.any that dashes anywhere I should go? One of the first jokes someone
:35:26. > :35:29.learns, you go to transport Museum, which is much ruder in the local
:35:30. > :37:39.accent. There is a chip shop in Edinburgh
:37:40. > :37:47.were they said they will decry anything. And the bloke went in and
:37:48. > :37:51.said can you fry my iPhone, and they covered it in batter and put it in
:37:52. > :37:59.the fryer. And it did not work. My mum was only 17 when she had me.
:38:00. > :38:11.Only two weeks after her birthday, I popped along. She's looking younger
:38:12. > :38:17.than her age. Tell them the one at the restaurant. All that I said, I
:38:18. > :38:25.did not mean to be insulting, I was making conversation, I said when did
:38:26. > :38:28.you start stand-up's 1983. I said, that is weird, because when you are
:38:29. > :38:41.learning to do stand-up, I was learning to stand up! I didn't mean
:38:42. > :38:43.it as an insult, I was just joking. We love it on this show when
:38:44. > :38:51.household names like you just pop in. You are continuing, what is it,
:38:52. > :38:58.March 27? We are here until another week and a half. Even that night,
:38:59. > :39:02.Whee Kim out and met people in their 80s, right down to kids aged three
:39:03. > :39:08.and four. It is a lovely show for everyone in between. Good luck with
:39:09. > :39:16.it. Thank you. Thank you. Let's take a breather and
:39:17. > :39:19.it. Thank you. Thank you. Let's take with some classic 80s pop. Playing
:39:20. > :39:26.the waterfront Hall in Belfast, here they are with the most successful
:39:27. > :39:38.single, the top ten single, lessons in love.
:39:39. > :40:01.# I've been trying to reach your shore
:40:02. > :40:10.# All the dreams that we were building
:40:11. > :40:57.# All the homes that we were building
:40:58. > :41:21.# We should use it, we could use it, yeah
:41:22. > :42:26.# All the dreams that we were building
:42:27. > :43:02.# We should use it, we could use it, yeah
:43:03. > :43:27.The big news in the budget was the sugar tax on soft drinks. Chancellor
:43:28. > :43:32.George Osborne said that the move would raise ?530 million and the
:43:33. > :43:37.government will end the money on primary school sports in England.
:43:38. > :43:41.Here in Northern Ireland, could we can decide how to spend it. Critics
:43:42. > :43:45.have labelled it another nanny state move under tax on the poor. What do
:43:46. > :43:51.you make of this? I don't think it is going to help taxing one sugary
:43:52. > :43:56.product. The cause sugar is so widely hidden in so many foods. You
:43:57. > :44:04.want lots taxed? If you start taxing them you should tax those foods.
:44:05. > :44:12.Although then's what are we trying to achieve? To achieve a reduction
:44:13. > :44:14.in obesity. We are trying to address obesity reduction and we need to
:44:15. > :44:19.look where it is coming from, which means that it is about education,
:44:20. > :44:24.about calories, about what people are eating, not just about one food.
:44:25. > :44:29.The support the government sure tax or not's absolutely not. It is
:44:30. > :44:32.politicians trying to make themselves look good, to show that
:44:33. > :44:39.they want to do something when, in reality, this is not the solution.
:44:40. > :44:45.You work closely with Jamie Oliver on this. Back off, let us live our
:44:46. > :44:52.own lives and decide what we want to eat. That would be fine if industry
:44:53. > :44:58.was responsible in how they marketed and sold food and told you what the
:44:59. > :45:03.sugar content was. We have a situation in Northern Ireland with
:45:04. > :45:08.7% of children out a beast, 21% overweight, with dental decay a
:45:09. > :45:11.serious issue and getting worse in terms of the number of tooth
:45:12. > :45:14.extraction is that children have to go into hospital for, this is an
:45:15. > :45:20.issue that we need to solve, and put out step I step a number of
:45:21. > :45:26.different measures. Does your friend Jamie make cakes? Sugary drinks are
:45:27. > :45:33.the number one source of sugar in children's... Jamie Oliver has done
:45:34. > :45:38.something that many other restaurants would look to follow
:45:39. > :45:47.here in the UK, which is that his restaurants have imposed a 10p per
:45:48. > :45:52.drink quality levy on sugary drinks. But you are prepared to sell them.
:45:53. > :45:59.What we are talking about here is choice, we are not banning a
:46:00. > :46:03.product, but we are saying that we want, it is parents who are saying
:46:04. > :46:10.that there is too much sugar in people's diets... We will talk about
:46:11. > :46:16.the broader issue of the sugar tax. I did see Jamie Oliver jumping up
:46:17. > :46:21.and down in an orgasmic way this morning. We can action we see this.
:46:22. > :46:29.Look at that. That is the man who does sell full sugar drinks in his
:46:30. > :46:34.restaurants, doesn't he? He has imposed a voluntary levy on those
:46:35. > :46:42.drinks to get people to have the choice to say, if you want to have
:46:43. > :46:46.these drinks, this is the extra. This is something worth celebrating.
:46:47. > :46:51.This is a really good day for children's health. It should be the
:46:52. > :46:55.first of many good days if both the government in the UK and hopefully
:46:56. > :47:00.in Northern Ireland... Sugar is in so many products that people don't
:47:01. > :47:03.even know about. And the food labelling legislation is impossible
:47:04. > :47:08.to read. I have been in this business 20 years, and I cannot tell
:47:09. > :47:12.you looking at the food labelling -- labelling how many spoonfuls of
:47:13. > :47:19.sugar are in there, because it is hidden. We need to start from
:47:20. > :47:23.educating people and the result is obviously, immediately, change the
:47:24. > :47:28.food labelling legislation, but what they try to do is change the tax so
:47:29. > :47:36.that we take the focus on what we should... Hold on. On the labelling
:47:37. > :47:43.side, this is something the UK Government has said, we want this
:47:44. > :47:46.new front of packed nutrition labelling. Some retailers were good
:47:47. > :47:51.at saying, yes, we are going to implement that. Manufacturers were
:47:52. > :47:57.much lower and there are a number that have not done it. -- slur.
:47:58. > :48:04.Industry leadership will not get us to where we need to be. I totally
:48:05. > :48:12.accept we should reduce the amount of sugar being taken into people's
:48:13. > :48:19.bodies. Sugar is implicated in certain types of cancers. But it is
:48:20. > :48:23.a stealth tax against poorer people. ?530 million raised in revenue
:48:24. > :48:28.through taxes. If the government wants to cut the name of a sugar
:48:29. > :48:32.going into people's diets, it only needs to make a lossing that you can
:48:33. > :48:36.only put XML of sugar in each product. It is an attack on the poor
:48:37. > :48:48.and on working families, but not as much as the ?4.4 billion of cuts to
:48:49. > :48:53.Personal Independence Payments. When you consider the rise in childhood
:48:54. > :48:58.obesity and diabetes, I think there's a vast amount of sugar in
:48:59. > :49:02.soft drinks, and they have no nutritional value. This is a valid
:49:03. > :49:07.step in helping to prevent a rising epidemic. But people know nowadays
:49:08. > :49:13.that fizzy drinks have sugar in them. It is actually a very small
:49:14. > :49:21.percentage. The hidden sugar in food products that people are not aware
:49:22. > :49:26.of, what about all of the yoghurt, all the sources of sugar that we
:49:27. > :49:29.don't know about? For children and young people, young adults, sugary
:49:30. > :49:33.drinks are the number one source of sugars in their diets.
:49:34. > :49:35.drinks are the number one source of absolutely right. The confectionery
:49:36. > :49:41.industry needs to back up its game. absolutely right. The confectionery
:49:42. > :49:47.Their loss of different ways that we get sugar in our diet. But sugary
:49:48. > :49:51.things, that is what per-pupil drink. What about the kind of foods
:49:52. > :49:56.and products that some of the richer people consume? Sugary drinks are
:49:57. > :50:03.non-essential part of our diet. So are chocolate bars. But it is that
:50:04. > :50:11.they have no nutritional benefits apart from those extra calories.
:50:12. > :50:17.Will we tax fatty foods like burgers next? Scarily, it is people on lower
:50:18. > :50:21.incomes, lower social economic classes who have the worst health,
:50:22. > :50:25.who suffer the most from dental decay and it is a number of things
:50:26. > :50:29.which includes changing the way of marketing to get away from this
:50:30. > :50:40.environment where we are confronted with marketing of high-fat, high
:50:41. > :50:44.sugar foods. Would you tax burgers, would you tax chips? Would you have
:50:45. > :50:49.an extra levy on all of that, and on my favour, chicken, chips, peas and
:50:50. > :50:55.gravy and on pawn crackers? -- favourites. The evidence is that the
:50:56. > :51:03.tax on sugary drink is proportionate and it works, it works in Mexico, it
:51:04. > :51:06.works in... Can give you an anecdotal example? There was a 22
:51:07. > :51:14.stone man sitting in this studio drinks diet cola. That is me. I love
:51:15. > :51:21.my chicken, chips, peas and gravy, crisps, burgers and chocolate, and I
:51:22. > :51:31.drink diet cola! Stick that in your pipe and smoke it!
:51:32. > :51:35.APPLAUSE You may be the exception. What we
:51:36. > :51:40.are talking about is the population as a whole, these are population
:51:41. > :51:45.level measures. And the cost to the NHS is huge, the cost to our
:51:46. > :51:49.economic well-being as well as on physical and mental health and
:51:50. > :51:52.well-being, is huge. We need to do many of these things, whether it is
:51:53. > :52:01.about tackling junk food marketing, better labelling, better education
:52:02. > :52:04.of food... I hope that I'm not being rude, there are lots of people
:52:05. > :52:10.trying to get in, from the audience. The lady in front with the flowery
:52:11. > :52:15.dress. It is a great idea and it is not a tax on the tour. The best
:52:16. > :52:24.drink any human being can have is water from the tap, and it is free,
:52:25. > :52:31.cheap and the limited. -- Unlimited. Talking about sugar tax, that drives
:52:32. > :52:34.people towards thy drinks which are full of aspartame and visual
:52:35. > :52:40.sweeteners which can be equally or even more dangerous than sugar. What
:52:41. > :52:46.does mark think about that? You are absolutely right. Irrespective of
:52:47. > :52:51.what the evidence shows on the artificial sweeteners, it is
:52:52. > :52:59.inconclusive, but I agree, some people have valid concerns. The
:53:00. > :53:05.evidence isn't there to say that we should not be switching away from
:53:06. > :53:11.them. At least he is trying here, hold on, Mark, you are sitting there
:53:12. > :53:17.saying that we don't really know, we need to be educated. Of course we
:53:18. > :53:23.know what we are eating. Yes, but we are eating sugar across-the-board.
:53:24. > :53:31.Just focusing on one product... You really think that 50, 60p more is
:53:32. > :53:37.going to stop people now drinking less of the fizzy drinks? One M5
:53:38. > :53:45.children in Northern Ireland are now overweight or obese. Absolutely, and
:53:46. > :53:50.we don't argue. The figures are horrendous. It is affecting our
:53:51. > :53:53.health, it is having horrendous consequences with chronic
:53:54. > :53:56.conditions. This is why we need to first of all start Rory know that it
:53:57. > :54:02.is going to make a difference, make it clear with food labelling that
:54:03. > :54:08.people know what they are getting, a flavoured yoghurt which has up to
:54:09. > :54:11.five teaspoons of sugar, these products are marketed for children,
:54:12. > :54:17.they are yoghurt, they look like they are healthy, and they are
:54:18. > :54:24.almost... Rosemary Mullen is a dentist. What do you say? Sugar is
:54:25. > :54:32.the sole cause of the epidemic of dental decay. Let me give you some
:54:33. > :54:36.figures. The quick, if you can. 25,000 teeth were taken out under
:54:37. > :54:43.general anaesthetic in Northern Ireland in 2013. From 5000 patients.
:54:44. > :54:51.That is an average of five teeth each patient. And of those, a
:54:52. > :54:55.significant average were baby teeth. In 2013 in one year, in Northern
:54:56. > :55:02.Ireland. Andy Saull cause of dental decay is sugar. -- and the sole
:55:03. > :55:07.cause. 10% rise in admission to general anaesthetic for tooth
:55:08. > :55:15.extraction in the last four years, getting worse. We did make some
:55:16. > :55:23.improvements, and yes, those are horrendous figures, and this is
:55:24. > :55:32.preventable disease. Is anybody here a full sugar cola drink man? That is
:55:33. > :55:39.the sugar you will be drinking in just one can. Does anybody like a
:55:40. > :55:46.Chai latte? That is the sugar that is in one Chai latte. When you start
:55:47. > :55:51.looking at that, I've found that astonishing. It is part of the
:55:52. > :55:59.debate, why should we, in one way, be focusing on sugary cola, sugary
:56:00. > :56:03.fizzy drinks when that is what is in a Chai latte? Just, your reaction to
:56:04. > :56:21.that, anybody? It is unbelievable. OK. There you
:56:22. > :56:25.go, thank you very much indeed. I want to say thank you very much that
:56:26. > :56:30.all of you for watching this series tonight. We are on a for six weeks
:56:31. > :56:35.every time. It is because of your support that we have been continuing
:56:36. > :56:41.for over ten years now. We will end with a reminder that it is Paddy 's
:56:42. > :56:46.Day tomorrow. And we will leave you with some Irish than sing with a
:56:47. > :56:58.difference, these guys were semifinalists on Britain's Got
:56:59. > :57:12.Talent. To take the series out, a big Wellcome -- a big welcome to...