:00:24. > :00:31.Thank you for joining us. We are talking about the dissident threat
:00:32. > :00:36.level in Northern Ireland. What has happened across the world? In other
:00:37. > :00:40.parts of the UK, what was the dissident threat level has been
:00:41. > :00:52.increased. Previously, it said an attack was possible but not likely.
:00:53. > :00:55.That is what is known as moderate. Just to be clear, the threat level
:00:56. > :01:12.is now known as severe. Do the people in the leafy
:01:13. > :01:16.suburbs not care here in Northern Ireland that people are being shot
:01:17. > :01:19.on the streets? I think it is probably a wake up to some people
:01:20. > :01:23.who live in other parts of the UK who do not follow what happens here
:01:24. > :01:26.and certainly there are times whenever people are shot and killed
:01:27. > :01:31.when it does not make the news headlines quite the same way it does
:01:32. > :01:38.over there. For example, this week one person was shot here in Belfast.
:01:39. > :01:43.I am talking about here. I am talking about pockets of Northern
:01:44. > :01:46.Ireland where they are kind of indifferent to it because they do
:01:47. > :01:52.not live close to it. I think it's is a shock whenever it happens. The
:01:53. > :01:57.prison officer who died because of a bomb attack on his vanity was
:01:58. > :02:01.driving to work, I do think that struck home and you will remember at
:02:02. > :02:05.the time, the police giving a stark warning that they were concerned
:02:06. > :02:10.about dissident republicans. Particularly concerned about this
:02:11. > :02:18.group that is now being known as the New IRA. That group is becoming more
:02:19. > :02:21.organised. Ian McCann, what should we do about this? I have to say that
:02:22. > :02:29.having sat through the various pieces of evidence from MI5 at the
:02:30. > :02:34.Savile enquiry and at other enquiries as well, I am not about to
:02:35. > :02:39.take their word for anything. It may well be that the assessment is
:02:40. > :02:42.accurate. There has always been support for a continuation of what
:02:43. > :02:46.Republicans call armed struggle, and you speak to the people involved now
:02:47. > :02:53.and they will over and over again quote the precedent of the
:02:54. > :02:56.provisional IRA, and they got respectability and they could have
:02:57. > :03:01.gone further and one and they are continuing the struggle. Let me cut
:03:02. > :03:05.to the chase. Before we came on the show, we say to the audience what we
:03:06. > :03:09.are going to talk about and none of them want to talk, certainly before
:03:10. > :03:14.the show, they said they did not want to talk about the dissident
:03:15. > :03:17.threat. Can you blame them? They are probably as terrified as anyone else
:03:18. > :03:24.that if they talk about it the dissidents will shoot them and do
:03:25. > :03:33.whatever it is that those people do. So the reality is that we have
:03:34. > :03:37.politicians. Now you are one of them. And they will say all the
:03:38. > :03:41.right things, we condemn this, society needs to condemn it, society
:03:42. > :03:44.needs to tell them they are wrong, but actually they have got the upper
:03:45. > :03:48.hand to the extent that they are creating fear and ordinary decent
:03:49. > :03:54.people are terrified of them. Yes, well the people who are most
:03:55. > :04:07.terrified of such violence are people who live in deprived, working
:04:08. > :04:14.class areas. Until a bomb has exploded across the water. That has
:04:15. > :04:19.ten times the impact of a bomb over here. I have heard you talk on your
:04:20. > :04:22.radio show to people from working class, Catholic areas who are well
:04:23. > :04:28.willing to talk about this but not willing to speak out. Some people,
:04:29. > :04:34.it is not just fear that stops them, it is the fact that they understand
:04:35. > :04:41.why these things are happening. The hysteria, for example, about drugs
:04:42. > :04:46.in this society and other societies is absolutely bewildering and is
:04:47. > :04:50.just wrong. You hear decent, moderate, peaceful people saying,
:04:51. > :04:55.mind you, when they shoot drug dealers, I have no problem with
:04:56. > :04:58.that, so exceptions are made for a particular category of people and
:04:59. > :05:03.once you do that you have implicitly sanctioned what is happening in
:05:04. > :05:07.general. Yes, there is a dirty trick to Northern Ireland that some of you
:05:08. > :05:13.watching this programme tonight -- dirty truth. You will condone
:05:14. > :05:17.certain types of violence because if it is a drug dealer or a thief, you
:05:18. > :05:24.will not mind if they die, and what you're doing is are you empowering
:05:25. > :05:28.those lunatics who are the dissidents with their bombs and
:05:29. > :05:31.their bullets? Because it is all right to do that, maybe it is right
:05:32. > :05:34.to murder someone as well, is what would be in the warped mind of some
:05:35. > :05:40.of those people who think like that. We do have one hand up tonight. Go
:05:41. > :05:43.ahead. It is not only drug dealers that they are shooting. They shot
:05:44. > :05:48.young Michael McGibbon who was only 33 and had nothing to do with any
:05:49. > :05:52.organisation, no drug dealer, a family man, and they murdered him in
:05:53. > :06:01.cold blood. You cannot tell me that that is the law. If it was Lot... If
:06:02. > :06:06.they have the evidence, why can't they go and handed in to the
:06:07. > :06:10.organisations that are there to deal with that? If they are saying that
:06:11. > :06:15.he was shot because he was a drug dealer, prove it. In any court of
:06:16. > :06:21.law and any land, you prove it. You're innocent until you are proven
:06:22. > :06:25.guilty. I am sorry that you have misunderstood me there. I was not
:06:26. > :06:29.saying that anyone is a legitimate target for killing. What I was
:06:30. > :06:35.saying is that when there is support for the killing... You just said you
:06:36. > :06:42.would be in agreement with them shooting a drug dealer. No, he
:06:43. > :06:47.didn't. I was saying the opposite. Hold on. Let me make it clear. He
:06:48. > :06:55.actually said the opposite of that and what you have done... I do
:06:56. > :07:01.apologise. Jude Collins, how do we act as a society get the upper hand?
:07:02. > :07:08.I think we make politics succeed. I think the dissident threat happens
:07:09. > :07:10.to the degree that people see politics not going forward. Sinn
:07:11. > :07:16.Fein are essentially has said that we have a political path. We have
:07:17. > :07:23.had a fresh start. And most people feel that it is a dish that has been
:07:24. > :07:27.read. We would like to think that it will be a truly fresh start, but it
:07:28. > :07:31.will have two require a change of attitude and a change of will and a
:07:32. > :07:36.partnership to address issues that affect everybody here, and God knows
:07:37. > :07:41.we have enough of them. But the bass majority of people who voted in our
:07:42. > :07:46.recent election, they voted for the peace process. How many people have
:07:47. > :07:50.been shot in recent times? You have three people shot on Monday in
:07:51. > :07:53.Belfast. You had, in the last month, you had Michael Gibbons, he was
:07:54. > :07:58.mentioned, you got Dan Murray, who was killed this week, and those are
:07:59. > :08:03.people who have been killed. And what about the capacity of these
:08:04. > :08:06.dissidents? The people who you are talking to, what do they tell you
:08:07. > :08:11.about the weaponry at their disposal and their expertise? It seems very
:08:12. > :08:20.clear at this stage that some of the explosives that have been used are
:08:21. > :08:23.birdie. That indicates they have access to IRA weapons. There are
:08:24. > :08:29.also indications that they have growing links to drug gangs in the
:08:30. > :08:33.Republic and that means they probably have access to guns from
:08:34. > :08:36.there as well as from here and from paramilitary stocks. On top of that,
:08:37. > :08:40.the big concern that has been coming through from senior officers is just
:08:41. > :08:44.these concerned that the new IRA, as it is being called, is better
:08:45. > :08:49.organised than perhaps dissidents have been for some time. Whenever
:08:50. > :08:54.you talk to the police, they have said they are splintered and
:08:55. > :08:57.infiltrated by informers and all over the place. There is a slight
:08:58. > :09:00.concern about this new group that they are better organised and I know
:09:01. > :09:04.from speaking to be built today that this was not a decision that was
:09:05. > :09:08.made overnight to have this. It has been months to decide to increase
:09:09. > :09:13.the threat level. This is probably a difficult question for you in your
:09:14. > :09:17.role as the Ireland correspondent, but let's do it. Do you think
:09:18. > :09:23.actually people in the rest of the UK care more about someone being
:09:24. > :09:26.shot if it is in the rest of the UK than here in Northern Ireland?
:09:27. > :09:29.Because if it is in Northern Ireland, there is that sense that it
:09:30. > :09:33.is always happening and they are used to it there. I think that
:09:34. > :09:36.certainly it is the case that whenever a murder happens, the
:09:37. > :09:39.circumstances of that murder will depend on how people react to it.
:09:40. > :09:43.There are murders that have been all over England that you don't see on
:09:44. > :09:47.the national news. It is not the case and sometimes we think to
:09:48. > :09:51.ourselves that we are any place where murder happens and that is not
:09:52. > :09:54.reflected on the national news. However, there is certainly the case
:09:55. > :09:58.that Northern Ireland still has an idea of the old Troubles and that's
:09:59. > :10:01.the old Troubles are still there and certainly when you take a look at
:10:02. > :10:03.the shootings that have taken place over the past month, that really
:10:04. > :10:15.reminds you of the Troubles. David McCann? It is about making
:10:16. > :10:19.politics work. If people feel that they can do this through the
:10:20. > :10:22.political process, there is no need to turn to violence. You are
:10:23. > :10:25.suggesting there is some type of sane thinking for these people who
:10:26. > :10:32.call themselves dissidents. Is there? There are certain elements of
:10:33. > :10:35.criminality as well, but the key point is making the political
:10:36. > :10:41.process work, because we know from our history that when people feel
:10:42. > :10:44.disenfranchised, it is immensely destabilising. The thing you're
:10:45. > :10:49.saying about dissidents having the upper hand, I would disagree with
:10:50. > :10:52.that. I think our entire political system is opposed to distant
:10:53. > :11:01.Republicanism. I didn't say they had the hand. I said some elements of
:11:02. > :11:06.the community in terms of the year for people coming forward. We had an
:11:07. > :11:11.election last week. The overwhelming majority of people voted for the
:11:12. > :11:15.peace process and for stable and democratic parties. That is the
:11:16. > :11:20.building block that we can build on. Let's move on to the wider issue of
:11:21. > :11:26.politics. Is it just more of the same? Is that what we are going to
:11:27. > :11:32.get another nail and? -- in Northern Ireland? We have certainly returned
:11:33. > :11:36.an Assembly very similar to the one we had previously. From I
:11:37. > :11:41.perspective, we are obviously delighted in the Green Party that we
:11:42. > :11:45.did gain a seat, and there are others. But it is whether the other
:11:46. > :11:51.parties are willing to come together and focus on delivery. You are going
:11:52. > :11:55.to scare them. You're going to be barking at them and scaring them,
:11:56. > :12:01.rocking the boat. Certainly in terms of our own record, pushing a road
:12:02. > :12:05.agenda, think we have been successful on Beijing legislation
:12:06. > :12:09.such as children's services and a ban on fracking. -- pushing
:12:10. > :12:14.legislation. The record of delivery of the last Executive in the last
:12:15. > :12:20.five years has not been good, and I think looking at that, if we have
:12:21. > :12:26.the same parties in power, will we get anything different? I have been
:12:27. > :12:29.hearing, both on the radio and on this television show, we get a lot
:12:30. > :12:33.of people slagging off the politicians at the top, the big main
:12:34. > :12:37.parties, saying they are a waste of space and this kind of stuff. And
:12:38. > :12:46.yet those parties, both Sinn Fein and the DUP, can sit back after this
:12:47. > :12:49.election and very much say, what an achievement. What a brilliant
:12:50. > :12:53.collection for them. Who are these people? Who are people like me
:12:54. > :12:56.facilitating? And they have the mandate now to say they have
:12:57. > :13:00.basically got the will of the people. So maybe we should stop
:13:01. > :13:08.complaining about it. The guy up there, go ahead. My question would
:13:09. > :13:14.be, if there is no opposition, who is would hold Sinn Fein and the DUP
:13:15. > :13:21.to account and ensure the fossil there -- they fulfilled their
:13:22. > :13:28.election pledges? Are you just Jim Allister Mach two, Ayman? No, my
:13:29. > :13:34.ideas will be very different to Jim Allister's. I think we have an
:13:35. > :13:40.important role to play, People Before Profit and the Greens, in the
:13:41. > :13:43.politics of the Assembly. Our vote certainly reflected the sense of
:13:44. > :13:47.disillusionment and even anger, particularly among young people. You
:13:48. > :13:54.only got four seats! You under the Greens together! That is perfectly
:13:55. > :13:59.true, but equally interesting as a statistic of the fact that you
:14:00. > :14:04.mentioned, 98% or 95% of the people who voted voted for parties that
:14:05. > :14:10.support the peace process and the Good Friday Agreement. Actually that
:14:11. > :14:13.is 90% of 54%, because one of the most innovative aspects of the
:14:14. > :14:17.elections was the fact that almost half of those entitled to vote did
:14:18. > :14:22.not turn out to vote, and there are thousands of others, as anybody who
:14:23. > :14:26.has been canvassing won't endorse Knowles, who are not registered
:14:27. > :14:30.deliberately because they see no point. But you can call that for
:14:31. > :14:34.certain, because actually you cannot register that as dissatisfaction.
:14:35. > :14:42.Maybe they are so happy that they did not feel the need to vote. The
:14:43. > :14:50.right-wing Liberals who hate the likes of the DUP, they must be
:14:51. > :14:58.gutted. -- the right on Liberals. We have been told by the DUP, that they
:14:59. > :15:03.most likely will block same-sex marriage. That was said before the
:15:04. > :15:06.election. What happened to the DUP? They had a very successful election.
:15:07. > :15:11.So actually, guess what? They are the biggest party in the country.
:15:12. > :15:15.They put out their mandates and same-sex marriage did not run them
:15:16. > :15:19.at all. That is true, and people like me find that very depressing.
:15:20. > :15:23.Nevertheless, I would say if you look at public opinion polls, and if
:15:24. > :15:27.you judge things just by the people you meet, the general tone of
:15:28. > :15:31.conversation around the north, there is no doubt at all that the majority
:15:32. > :15:36.of people your support same-sex marriage. That will sooner or later
:15:37. > :15:44.be reflected in all the political parties, including the DUP. No sign
:15:45. > :15:53.of it when people go out to vote. Well, it seems to me that... Sorry
:15:54. > :15:58.to interrupt you. I got a text at 2am, it actually woke me up, and
:15:59. > :16:02.they said to me after the election result that people have spoken. And
:16:03. > :16:14.that is what an election, I guess, is all about. Going up here, go
:16:15. > :16:20.ahead. Being a youth, I feel that no matter who we elect, it is not going
:16:21. > :16:26.to change. What would you want to change? What is a policy that is
:16:27. > :16:32.important to your? For a start, jobs for years. The youth do not have any
:16:33. > :16:34.jobs. People want to get apprenticeships and things, but
:16:35. > :16:41.there is nothing too fond of the schemes. I think no matter who we
:16:42. > :16:45.voting, at the end of the day, once they get in, that is it. They don't
:16:46. > :16:48.really care about anything. They just want to get their monthly check
:16:49. > :16:59.and their expense bill. APPLAUSE
:17:00. > :17:05.At a man just pointed out, 47% of people did not vote at the last
:17:06. > :17:08.election, so you are one of a growing number that did not vote.
:17:09. > :17:13.But the only way you ever get change, as we know from our history,
:17:14. > :17:17.is by people getting up and being engaged in the system. I totally
:17:18. > :17:21.understand that you can be frustrated about different aspects.
:17:22. > :17:25.We have spoken about same-sex marriage and positions of concern.
:17:26. > :17:29.But the only way you can change that is by using ten minutes of your day
:17:30. > :17:34.on polling day, getting out and voting for those candidates who do
:17:35. > :17:39.represent your political views. If you look at the numbers, 46%, every
:17:40. > :17:42.single election result in Northern Ireland could have been changed and
:17:43. > :17:46.people who didn't vote had voted in a different way. You could have an
:17:47. > :17:50.entirely different Assembly. While people are entitled not to vote, if
:17:51. > :17:54.you don't vote then you don't make a difference and you don't have your
:17:55. > :17:59.say, and that is the way it is. That is not true. Actually you can make a
:18:00. > :18:02.proactive choice not to vote, and that can be a principle, and that in
:18:03. > :18:07.itself can make a difference. But it doesn't give USA. It gives them a
:18:08. > :18:15.say that he cannot be bothered with any of them. But within those range,
:18:16. > :18:17.you can tell me what you think yourself, but if you would write
:18:18. > :18:24.down that card, either not people who perhaps the catcher 's interest?
:18:25. > :18:31.Whether Greens, People Before Profit, whoever, if you look, you
:18:32. > :18:35.can find your best choice. I can post a post on Facebook and get
:18:36. > :18:41.bigger and more attention than what these guys do, and they are getting
:18:42. > :18:47.80 grand a year. They are not getting 80 grand a year. I think an
:18:48. > :18:55.MLA salary is 49 grand a year. So you have nearly just doubled it,
:18:56. > :19:03.you're exaggerating. The Jaguar. -- the guy here. I took a pay cut this
:19:04. > :19:07.year to keep a permanent job, and I am a cleaner. I am taking pay cuts
:19:08. > :19:13.and caring for my mum, who I do not get a single penny for looking after
:19:14. > :19:21.from anybody. What is your message? I voted this year. I wish I didn't.
:19:22. > :19:30.Who did you vote for? Seven people. But the DUP. Why? Because he was the
:19:31. > :19:36.only one in west Belfast. No other choice. We all know Sinn Fein. But
:19:37. > :19:39.did you identify the DUP policies that impact on your life, or was it
:19:40. > :19:44.because of what side of the fence they are on? Side of the fence.
:19:45. > :19:51.Trying to keep Sinn Fein out, basically. So you voted DUP to keep
:19:52. > :19:55.Sinn Fein out. That is the kind of politics we are saddled with, and
:19:56. > :20:03.the kind of politics that feeds dissident militants. How does it
:20:04. > :20:11.feed dissidents? If you see the whole lot of them are not good, and
:20:12. > :20:15.they say, Sinn Fein said it would make a difference, and then the guy
:20:16. > :20:19.making no difference, they think the only way to do it is with violence.
:20:20. > :20:26.Anybody who does not vote as Rob themselves of the opportunity to
:20:27. > :20:30.criticise politicians. Eamon McCann? I think there are many people who
:20:31. > :20:35.chose not to vote and it was a positive choice, as your
:20:36. > :20:37.correspondent has said. A considerable section of the
:20:38. > :20:42.population think that they are all the same and nothing will change. In
:20:43. > :20:46.that situation, if you have a broad swathe of people, many young people,
:20:47. > :20:51.who have no hope the future, and are totally disillusioned with the
:20:52. > :20:56.conventional political system, then you are going to have people moving
:20:57. > :21:01.to organisations like the IRA. I would say, as you would expect me to
:21:02. > :21:04.say, if you want to support somebody else, perhaps you should support
:21:05. > :21:08.another outlet for your anger against the futility of the
:21:09. > :21:16.conventional political process, and in my view of course, that would be
:21:17. > :21:19.People Before Profit. If you don't vote for an organisation, we can
:21:20. > :21:25.same during the election campaign, we are neither Orange and are green,
:21:26. > :21:32.but we are up for the last phrase is very important. -- we are neither
:21:33. > :21:37.orange nor green. We wanted to relate to young people with no hope
:21:38. > :21:49.for the future. We did not do it to the extent we want to do, -- we
:21:50. > :21:54.wanted to do. Ryan Paul, you are a first-time voter. Do you think you
:21:55. > :21:58.have made a difference? I think it is hard for an individual soldiers
:21:59. > :22:02.need to make a difference. I not had anything to complain about. This is
:22:03. > :22:08.my first time voting. -- an individual such as myself to make a
:22:09. > :22:12.difference. I do not have the benefit of hindsight. For e-voting
:22:13. > :22:16.was not as obligated as this party is aligned with this and this party
:22:17. > :22:19.is aligned with that and I am unhappy with this issue because of
:22:20. > :22:26.historical fact and what not. Who did you vote for a? I voted for
:22:27. > :22:33.Greens. You are welcome. APPLAUSE
:22:34. > :22:37.For me personally it aligned with my liberal views. Alliance were second.
:22:38. > :22:44.I think in relation to your question, I cannot make a difference
:22:45. > :22:49.may all, but it is up to the other 46%. 54% of us voted. I know I'm
:22:50. > :22:53.going to get a lot of answers here, but my question is why doesn't
:22:54. > :23:00.everybody to know to vote to make an impact? Do you think voting should
:23:01. > :23:03.be compulsory? I definitely do. It has got to the point where you
:23:04. > :23:09.almost have a minority deciding for the majority. At least everybody
:23:10. > :23:13.would have a say, even if they just wanted to write something rude on
:23:14. > :23:20.the ballot paper. Do you think it would change the results? If you
:23:21. > :23:27.look at those really are, with compulsory voting, 97% turnout in
:23:28. > :23:35.every election. Just wait and we will get a microphone to you. Go
:23:36. > :23:39.ahead. I think the issue is with the smaller parties, there is not enough
:23:40. > :23:44.easily accessible information on what they stand for. I didn't vote.
:23:45. > :23:56.I have always been an active voter. -- I did vote. But a lot of my
:23:57. > :24:00.friends in the clear community art unemployed, feel maligned. I voted
:24:01. > :24:07.for the Greens and Alliance, and I know I aligned with their parties,
:24:08. > :24:12.but it is simply on two issues, same-sex marriage and abortion.
:24:13. > :24:15.Trying to find other issues on what they stand for and what they plan on
:24:16. > :24:25.changing in Government, it is impossible. I tried to get some
:24:26. > :24:29.answers out of them. I am also talking about the bigger parties.
:24:30. > :24:35.There is not enough information. Most parties will publish their
:24:36. > :24:43.manifestos on their websites. Go ahead. I just wanted to ask about
:24:44. > :24:46.making it compulsory to vote. Surely if you made it compulsory, the
:24:47. > :24:51.results of the vote will not be substantial, because it will change
:24:52. > :24:55.will stop if I am made to vote, I may just vote for the hell of it,
:24:56. > :25:01.and what we will that leave the country? Thank you. We are out of
:25:02. > :25:05.time. Please thank our panel. APPLAUSE
:25:06. > :25:10.More than 90,000 people are expected to attend by the end of the week.
:25:11. > :25:13.We thought it was time the biggest show in the country headed
:25:14. > :25:16.to the country to see what all the fuss was about.
:25:17. > :25:37.I have no idea around this place. You have two walk around and there
:25:38. > :25:40.are farmers. Can you think of anything worse than farmers and
:25:41. > :25:43.contractors and boys like this year? I bet you are a farmer. How did I
:25:44. > :26:11.guess you were a farmer? HIP HOP MUSIC PLAYS. We are trying
:26:12. > :26:26.to find a cow. I hate this. How are you doing? I'm not allowed any. I
:26:27. > :26:30.don't want to go in. It is supposed to be, isn't this wonderful and it
:26:31. > :26:35.is rotten. The smell is rotten. I don't like animals. I don't like
:26:36. > :26:47.cows. If it goes any further, I am not going to like anything about it.
:26:48. > :26:51.The last time I was down on a farm, and we will actually show you some
:26:52. > :26:55.of it now, it was one of the most notorious things I have done and it
:26:56. > :27:10.was a long time ago. The smell in itself made me book. -- baulk. I was
:27:11. > :27:21.baulking all over the place. I could possibly be in a very bad place. Do
:27:22. > :27:26.you want to have a go? Not particularly, but in the spirit of
:27:27. > :27:34.the Balmoral show. I think a couple of women in the BBC have hairy legs.
:27:35. > :27:54.This is exactly why I can't stand this place! Here comes the smell.
:27:55. > :28:14.Wonderful day out at the Balmoral show. I hate this. Think that is
:28:15. > :28:24.funny, didn't you? Goats and pigs. What are you doing? Why are you
:28:25. > :28:39.putting talcum powder on hit? They can look cleaner. He doesn't like
:28:40. > :28:45.it. No, no, no, no. Then I just say that I was completely stitched up
:28:46. > :28:50.there, right? Because those two ice creams, I did not eat and against
:28:51. > :28:58.this dirty wee rot bag of a team have edited that is if I walked off
:28:59. > :29:01.with two ice creams. I did not. Three, is that what you said is
:29:02. > :29:09.there? Which one of you fat boys said three? You will be removed
:29:10. > :29:15.later, son. And also, of course, there was a young Vincent up with me
:29:16. > :29:16.and he left my collar. One caller was out and one was in.
:29:17. > :29:25.Unbelievable. My next act... in the United States and is just
:29:26. > :29:29.back from another stint These days, she now calls
:29:30. > :29:32.Northern Ireland home and was one of the stars of the Proms
:29:33. > :29:36.in the Park here two years ago. Singing When I Was Queen,
:29:37. > :30:05.it's Dana Masters! MUSIC: When I Was Queen by Dana
:30:06. > :30:17.Masters. # when I was Queen. # when I was Queen. # making was here, he
:30:18. > :30:29.was not missing. # his hands were strong, his hands were steady, when
:30:30. > :30:36.I was Queen. # my crown grew heavy, Michael did not carry the weight. #
:30:37. > :30:42.my sorrow, the pain of all I lost. # they tore microbes and they stole my
:30:43. > :30:53.home, but I want the down for long. # when I was Queen. # your heart had
:30:54. > :30:58.everything in me. # you were fears and you were free. # when I was
:30:59. > :31:23.Queen. # when I was Queen. # people were so afraid of our
:31:24. > :31:31.court. # when I was Queen. # but my crown grew heavy, my throne did not
:31:32. > :31:35.carry the weight of my sorrows and pain of all I lost. # they toured
:31:36. > :31:56.microbes and they stole my home but I want the down for long. # be
:31:57. > :32:20.released. # chains go and be released.
:32:21. > :32:32.# my crown grew heavy, my throne could not carry the weight of my
:32:33. > :32:39.sorrow and pain of all I lost. # they tore my robes and they stole my
:32:40. > :32:46.home, but I won't be down for long. # my crown grew heavy, might the
:32:47. > :32:52.road could not carry the weight of my sorrow and the pain of all our
:32:53. > :32:54.last. # they tore my robes and they stole my home, but I won't be down
:32:55. > :33:28.for long. OK. Beautiful, beautiful stuff.
:33:29. > :33:33.There was a technical issue at the top of the programme tonight. There
:33:34. > :33:38.was nearly a technical issue with my trousers tonight because what
:33:39. > :33:43.actually happened, maybe you are glad you missed it. What actually
:33:44. > :33:47.happened was in the audience all know this. I don't think people at
:33:48. > :34:00.home actually solve as this evening, but I came into the studio in a very
:34:01. > :34:04.different way tonight. Have a look. Watch out!
:34:05. > :34:27.APPLAUSE Hello, everybody. Well come along to
:34:28. > :34:30.a brand-new series of Nolan Live. If you are wondering why we came in
:34:31. > :34:34.like this, just wait until you see the end of the show. I am telling
:34:35. > :34:37.you, you will never have seen the like of it in your life. It is going
:34:38. > :34:49.to be an astonishing. APPLAUSE
:34:50. > :34:57.Is all I am a fine specimen, aren't I? I promise you, just wait for a
:34:58. > :34:58.feud minutes and you are going to see something quite unbelievable in
:34:59. > :34:59.my view. What changing rooms
:35:00. > :35:01.and public toilets should And the debate is bound
:35:02. > :35:07.to grow here too. When it comes to transgender rights,
:35:08. > :35:10.is it all down to individual choice It's an issue that even
:35:11. > :35:28.President Barack Obama was speaking You should feel encouraged just by
:35:29. > :35:31.virtue of the fact that I think social attitudes on this issue have
:35:32. > :35:39.changed faster than I have seen on any other issue. It doesn't feel
:35:40. > :35:44.fast enough for you or for those who are impacted and that is good. You
:35:45. > :35:45.shouldn't feel satisfied. You should keep pushing.
:35:46. > :35:47.So what do people think on this issue here?
:35:48. > :35:51.Vinny has been hitting the streets in Belfast to find out.
:35:52. > :35:57.Do you think people should be able to self identify as either male or
:35:58. > :36:07.female depending on how they feel? Yes. Why? Because it is about
:36:08. > :36:15.equality. I think it is up there unconscious, isn't it Mushy what if
:36:16. > :36:21.I said I will -- what if I said I identified as a five foot Chinese
:36:22. > :36:27.lady? That's fine. That's who you are. If somebody seriously
:36:28. > :36:32.identifies as something I think they should be allowed to be really want
:36:33. > :36:38.to be. When it comes to toilets, which ones should they be able to
:36:39. > :36:42.use? Anyone. I'm afraid that is a bit dangerous. If they feel they are
:36:43. > :36:48.a male or female, let them go to the toilet. If you are a male, you are a
:36:49. > :36:53.male. It depends what you are down below. You should just go to the
:36:54. > :36:58.bathroom you're supposed to go to, like. I do think I would like them
:36:59. > :37:02.in the bathroom with me. What if it is your girlfriend or your children
:37:03. > :37:06.and there? And you have me going up there and saying I am a female. They
:37:07. > :37:16.will wonder what I am doing there. Big issue there.
:37:17. > :37:18.Joining me to discuss this is Ella Whelan,
:37:19. > :37:22.assistant editor of Spiked Online, John O'Doherty, director of LGBT
:37:23. > :37:34.support group the Rainbow Project, Ellen Murray.
:37:35. > :37:39.I think most people like me are sick of talking about toilets and where
:37:40. > :37:42.people can go to the toilet because it seems like such a nonissue and it
:37:43. > :37:50.is an issue that I think has been made so huge by... So what should a
:37:51. > :37:54.transgender person do? They should go where they want. Wherever they
:37:55. > :38:00.feel like going to. I think most people would accommodate that. And
:38:01. > :38:05.where does that stop? So, OK, they can choose to go into whatever
:38:06. > :38:10.toilet they choose to go into. Whether society may view them as a
:38:11. > :38:15.man or a woman is how they self identified. So if I take that to an
:38:16. > :38:23.extreme. There is a naked woman that walks into communal showers full of
:38:24. > :38:29.men. And the woman says, why are you questioning me? I am a man. And now
:38:30. > :38:38.she is standing there, or he is standing there, actually, if I am
:38:39. > :38:42.going to be respectful, and he has a joiner -- he has female genitals and
:38:43. > :38:47.he says do not question me, I am a man. I think the difference is that
:38:48. > :38:50.people should be allowed to question each other and people should be
:38:51. > :38:53.allowed a personal interactions. Where I see the problem is where the
:38:54. > :38:56.state and the authorities get involved and that's where you have a
:38:57. > :39:00.lobbying path that certain people can't go somewhere or that certain
:39:01. > :39:06.people say something that somebody did not say that they do not believe
:39:07. > :39:08.they are a man. People should be free to have these personal
:39:09. > :39:13.interactions that could be unpleasant. So there are no
:39:14. > :39:19.boundaries in communal areas? It should be worked out by the people
:39:20. > :39:24.in that situation. Presumably, there would be settings such as communal
:39:25. > :39:27.showers. Some people would say hold on a minute. And you would have to
:39:28. > :39:34.deal with that. Unless it becomes violent, in which case... But it is
:39:35. > :39:37.people's personal interactions. There is no need for the state
:39:38. > :39:42.getting involved in that public sphere, which is wrong. Zach
:39:43. > :39:46.Freeman, give us a sense of what is happening in the US from your
:39:47. > :39:49.perspective? At least here in Washington state, our human rights
:39:50. > :39:53.commission passed a regulation that essentially made it unlawful for
:39:54. > :39:57.people to ask unwelcome questions in the sort of facilities. Like many
:39:58. > :40:03.Americans, we are not really as concerned about transgender people
:40:04. > :40:09.using the bathroom, I think, with this rule that was made, they kind
:40:10. > :40:12.of lumped batter and then with locker rooms and spa facilities and
:40:13. > :40:13.where people have reasonable expectation for a high-level
:40:14. > :40:22.privacy. Am I right in saying the plan in
:40:23. > :40:29.North Carolina is to force people to use the facilities of the changing
:40:30. > :40:34.room of their birth? I can speak to North Carolina's lot. I can tell you
:40:35. > :40:39.that Washington's is the inverse of that. North Carolina made a decision
:40:40. > :40:42.to basically say that businesses could not make policies, and
:40:43. > :40:48.Washington's actually said that businesses had to allow people in
:40:49. > :40:54.without any standard for entry. And I are not allowed to ask question
:40:55. > :40:58.around it, is that correct? Correct. In Washington you are not allowed to
:40:59. > :41:08.ask unwelcome question, is how it was worded. So this idea as it was
:41:09. > :41:17.brutal couple more visible, and a good man -- the idea of a naked
:41:18. > :41:21.person with female genitalia -- with male genitalia walking into female
:41:22. > :41:29.showers and saying they are women, no question can be asked about that?
:41:30. > :41:32.In Washington that is correct. This has happened in communal showers and
:41:33. > :41:36.a locker rooms where women have said that a man or a person with male
:41:37. > :41:42.genitalia was there watching them and there was nothing they could do
:41:43. > :41:55.about it. Would you like to speak? Go ahead. Hello. I am from the
:41:56. > :42:01.transgender community myself. This law has been brought up as an excuse
:42:02. > :42:05.to discriminate against us. They are saying that men could go in wearing
:42:06. > :42:13.a dress to commit sex offences, but the last time I checked, offenders
:42:14. > :42:19.of no matter what crime it was would be dealt with by the law. And you
:42:20. > :42:23.want to speak, go ahead. Does anybody may be think that men are
:42:24. > :42:30.being discriminated against us as much as transgender people by being
:42:31. > :42:34.branded rapists? I think there is a distortion here of the reality and
:42:35. > :42:37.how this is being experience. We should not be challenging people on
:42:38. > :42:41.the basis of their gender identity for using facilities. We should
:42:42. > :42:43.challenge people on their hit her, and if their behaviour is an
:42:44. > :42:50.appropriate, that should be challenged. -- challenge people on
:42:51. > :42:56.their behaviour. Most trials people will not want to use communal
:42:57. > :43:03.facilities and will receive unisex facilities being provided. Here in
:43:04. > :43:10.Northern Ireland some places have had unisex facilities for 15 years
:43:11. > :43:15.without any issues being raised. So that would be needed in every public
:43:16. > :43:19.facility? Not necessarily every public facility, but I don't know
:43:20. > :43:24.about anybody else, but I would prefer to use a shower that nobody
:43:25. > :43:30.else is using. So where that service can be provided, I think it should
:43:31. > :43:34.be provided. I don't know why people think -- what people think trans
:43:35. > :43:37.people are getting up to an toilet, or why they would want to access
:43:38. > :43:41.these trailers for some obscure reason. We should be challenging
:43:42. > :43:44.people on their behaviour, and if it is inappropriate, they should be
:43:45. > :43:52.challenged, but not on how they look. So self identification isn't
:43:53. > :43:59.individual -- is an individual human rights? Yes, on the basis of gender.
:44:00. > :44:06.So I mean no offence by this, but if I was the city and say, I am self
:44:07. > :44:12.identifying -- to sit here and say I am self identifying as ten stone,
:44:13. > :44:17.six foot five black man, is that OK for me to do that? I think a lot of
:44:18. > :44:20.people would ask if you have issues with your body and bodiless morphia
:44:21. > :44:26.if you're self representing yourself as being different than you are. But
:44:27. > :44:31.if you're allowed to self identify, where does that stop? What would be
:44:32. > :44:36.the result or the impact of that? The result would be that I am
:44:37. > :44:42.clearly not black or ten stone. But if you look at these bitter fix of
:44:43. > :44:48.gender. -- the specifics of gender... I don't think this is
:44:49. > :44:53.funny, by the way. I think it is an important issue. There is a huge
:44:54. > :45:04.amount of evidence from a scientific perspective showing that people
:45:05. > :45:08.experience gender beyond the binary. The logical conclusion of the
:45:09. > :45:11.identifying as female is not somebody else identifying as a
:45:12. > :45:15.different height or a different weight. It is not the same thing.
:45:16. > :45:20.The rights and experiences of trans people have been documented for many
:45:21. > :45:23.years, since time began, probably. And we have been using the same
:45:24. > :45:28.bathrooms and the same showers as all of you in the studio for a very
:45:29. > :45:33.long time. The alloy North Carolina is based on literally zero cases.
:45:34. > :45:38.This is not to you based law or policy. Cubase law and policy that
:45:39. > :45:41.restricts access to things on behaviour, and we already have laws
:45:42. > :45:47.that cover public order and assault offences. But that has already told
:45:48. > :45:51.us that in America, people know I'm not even able to ask a question
:45:52. > :45:57.around someone's identity. He says it is against the law. It doesn't
:45:58. > :46:04.reflect reality, and it does not reflect the benefits higher issue
:46:05. > :46:09.for the trans people who find improved access. I just want to know
:46:10. > :46:15.how they are going to enforce this year. We'll be doing gender checks,
:46:16. > :46:20.for example? If I decided I wanted to be Stephanie, how would you tell
:46:21. > :46:24.I was Stephen before? This is what they are doing in North Carolina. We
:46:25. > :46:27.now have men who identify as men walking into women's bathrooms and
:46:28. > :46:37.trailing women out. That is already happening. Self identification is an
:46:38. > :46:44.individual choice, and no person has a right to force other people to
:46:45. > :46:53.descend to the yard. And the lady here, go ahead. -- to defend
:46:54. > :46:58.themselves. I agree that it is very much a nonissue, in terms of why is
:46:59. > :47:04.anybody even bothering? A huge issue in the States at the moment. It is
:47:05. > :47:07.mainly because of the Christian right, and the family oriented,
:47:08. > :47:13.crazy about sex and what is going on in people's bedrooms and
:47:14. > :47:18.bathrooms... That, I think she might be talking about you obsessed with
:47:19. > :47:27.what happens in people's bedrooms? This is not a religious issue, but
:47:28. > :47:32.an issue of safety and privacy. If you don't think it is a religious
:47:33. > :47:39.issue, that is not true. It is about the religious right wanting to make
:47:40. > :47:44.sure that the control what people do with their private lives. The people
:47:45. > :47:48.in Washington really just want to see the rule from the Washington
:47:49. > :47:51.Human Rights Commission repealed. Nobody is out here intentionally to
:47:52. > :47:54.discriminate. The reality is there is probably a way we can find a
:47:55. > :47:58.solution that would work for everybody, but this just is not it.
:47:59. > :48:02.Transgender people have been using bathrooms for decades and nobody
:48:03. > :48:07.knew. That is not what is of concern to people in our state for the bus
:48:08. > :48:12.majority. So what is of concern? It is that people would use that rule
:48:13. > :48:15.to identify and gain access to places they should not be just
:48:16. > :48:22.because they say they feel like a woman. There is no standard by which
:48:23. > :48:29.to know if that person is. There is a history of the classing... Gay
:48:30. > :48:33.people where once per verse because they were different. We are straying
:48:34. > :48:42.dangerously into that area. The solution is that transgender people,
:48:43. > :48:46.in whatever way you identify, it is not that mad to say that I want to
:48:47. > :48:51.look like or be a woman. People have been doing it for years. But the
:48:52. > :48:55.thing is, and this is where the transgender and LGBT community have
:48:56. > :48:59.do pull themselves up, is because they have been for laws and policies
:49:00. > :49:05.that say that people cannot criticise our question, and that is
:49:06. > :49:13.where the tension lives. You are non-binary. I presume that means you
:49:14. > :49:16.are not identifying either as a man or a woman. Yes, I identify as
:49:17. > :49:24.neither male nor the mill but something separate. So what is that
:49:25. > :49:28.separate? If you want to put a word on it is, third gender. It is not a
:49:29. > :49:34.word I like to use because it is appropriating from another culture,
:49:35. > :49:40.but you could say that. It is neither male nor female. And it does
:49:41. > :49:49.that mean that some days you feel you are male and other days the
:49:50. > :49:52.mill? No, that is different. I am non-binary, not gender fluid. I do
:49:53. > :49:57.not feel either like a man or a woman but something separate. You
:49:58. > :50:00.might not feel like it, but do you not having your head that you must
:50:01. > :50:06.be one or the other, because that is what human beings are? No, I never
:50:07. > :50:13.have. You have intersects. You have men, women and intersex. What is
:50:14. > :50:18.intersex? Intersex is someone with undefined chromosomes and the
:50:19. > :50:23.hormones, is not necessarily male or female, their genitalia at birth may
:50:24. > :50:28.not be necessarily defined. They have always existed. So non-Maori
:50:29. > :50:35.people have always existed as well. We are just invisible. -- non-binary
:50:36. > :50:44.people. So what do you write on documents when the question is male
:50:45. > :50:52.or the mill? I put an extra box. -- the question is male or female. What
:50:53. > :51:00.about online forms? I refuse to fill them in, I might. Did you group up
:51:01. > :51:04.as a boy or a girl? I grew up female. I was identified as female
:51:05. > :51:09.first, but I never identified as the mill. -- I was defined at birth as
:51:10. > :51:19.the mill based on the fact that I had a vagina. -- as female. I hope
:51:20. > :51:25.it is OK to say that word. You can say vagina on the BBC! We have said
:51:26. > :51:29.worse. A lot of transgender people always felt different, but in the
:51:30. > :51:34.way they felt more like boys were more like girls. I always just felt
:51:35. > :51:42.different. What does it say on your passport? I am currently challenging
:51:43. > :51:48.them to put an X marker on my Irish passport, and I want to do the same
:51:49. > :51:53.on the British one. Does anyone have an issue with people identifying as
:51:54. > :51:59.neither man nor a woman who would like speak tonight? I would have no
:52:00. > :52:02.problems with that. What about a hermaphrodite who has not gone to
:52:03. > :52:06.the process of choosing one genitalia or another or who does not
:52:07. > :52:12.want to? The correct term is intersex, not hermaphrodite. The
:52:13. > :52:15.issues for intersex are specific and have not been touched on here is is
:52:16. > :52:22.of a quick stop what I worry about is the idea that people will abuse
:52:23. > :52:29.this to get access to spaces. That means that people who are not
:52:30. > :52:38.perceived as their agenda will not get access, and some people who
:52:39. > :52:41.transitioned later life will always be identified as transgender. Most
:52:42. > :52:51.transgender people in this country, they know their place. They use the
:52:52. > :52:55.disabled toilet. If you are pre-op, you use the disabled toilet. No
:52:56. > :52:59.self-respecting transgender person is going to go into a different role
:53:00. > :53:03.it for some sort of sexual thrall. We are not about that. It is about
:53:04. > :53:07.our gender, not our sexuality. APPLAUSE
:53:08. > :53:15.Let's move on. Right, it's the North West 200 this
:53:16. > :53:18.weekend, but what you are about to see now is a motorbike show
:53:19. > :53:30.with a difference. I am joined by Jamie Squibb from
:53:31. > :53:33.Nitro Circus. This is interesting, because what you're about to do here
:53:34. > :53:35.is astonishing. You have been doing this then she were a child, riding
:53:36. > :53:49.bikes. -- since you were a child. Yes. Do
:53:50. > :53:56.not try what you are about to see at all men anyway. You had been injured
:53:57. > :54:06.the years. Yes, fairly long list of injuries. Broken ankles, the, legs,
:54:07. > :54:10.shoulders. A long list. And how do you go from riding a bike in an
:54:11. > :54:15.ordinary way to this crazy stuff? I think you just have a desire to do
:54:16. > :54:20.the crazy stuff. I started riding bikes at section is old, so I have
:54:21. > :54:27.just progressed and progress for the last 30 years. -- at six years old.
:54:28. > :54:33.Are you mad? I don't think were mad, I think we are just... Maybe a
:54:34. > :54:38.little bit mad. And you are coming to Belfast for a gig. We will be at
:54:39. > :54:44.Windsor Park on the 10th of June. We will also be in court and Dublin the
:54:45. > :54:48.same weekend. What we are going to do now, we have the ramps up out the
:54:49. > :54:56.back. This is just a sample of what Nitro Circus life is. This is just
:54:57. > :55:03.three guys. On the life sure we have 12 freestyle guys, 20 or 30
:55:04. > :55:06.skateboarders, the works. I want to see this. This is absolutely amazing
:55:07. > :56:04.stuff. Have a look. I am just going to get my head
:56:05. > :56:10.warmed up. Commentating at the same time is pretty difficult. We go.
:56:11. > :56:16.There are three of us here today. This is just a sample of what you
:56:17. > :56:37.can see at Nitro Circus live on the 10th of June. Pushing my body up
:56:38. > :56:44.above the front. You think this is mad, just look at this! We are going
:56:45. > :56:51.to get all three bikes in the air at the same time. So let's go. All
:56:52. > :57:07.three guys. The year we go. This is what we call a train.
:57:08. > :57:10.APPLAUSE We are going to have 12 riders in
:57:11. > :57:29.the air at the same time upside down. It is completely crazy. Here
:57:30. > :57:39.we go. Using the throttle. Were going to get another trick done now.
:57:40. > :57:48.There we go. Were going to come up for our final jump now. Just going
:57:49. > :57:57.to make some adjustments on the Boris. -- on the bars. Thank you so
:57:58. > :58:09.much for watching tonight. We will see you on the radio tomorrow
:58:10. > :58:12.morning. Good night. OK, and I think that is going to be asked about
:58:13. > :58:18.done. APPLAUSE