:00:16. > :00:19.Can it be justified when tragedy keeps striking?
:00:20. > :00:24.We've entertainment you won't believe and a star act
:00:25. > :00:27.And it's all in front of a live Nolan audience.
:00:28. > :00:51.The North West 200 has once again been overshadowed by tragedy.
:00:52. > :00:54.Rising motorbike star Malachi Mitchell-Thomas
:00:55. > :00:58.lost his life at the weekend at the age of just 20.
:00:59. > :01:00.And so the debate about road racing starts up again.
:01:01. > :01:15.Should it be promoted and celebrated?
:01:16. > :01:26.I don't think it should be promoted or celebrated. I think it's a sad
:01:27. > :01:34.thing that men want to do this. Many people had dripped it to a --
:01:35. > :01:48.addicted to be adrenaline buzz I'm going to the edge of what is
:01:49. > :01:52.possible. That is what they do. They challenge themselves. But you go so
:01:53. > :01:56.fast and you narrow the margin of error to the point where it doesn't
:01:57. > :02:00.exist and then you can die and what these men are doing is not
:02:01. > :02:05.necessary. If they want to do it, they can. But I would say this is
:02:06. > :02:08.not something to celebrate. This is not something to be happy about,
:02:09. > :02:13.that there is this culture of fixation on speed. There is also a
:02:14. > :02:22.measure of preoccupation with mortality in it. When you look at
:02:23. > :02:26.riders such as Lee Murphy and the poem he wrote before he died which
:02:27. > :02:29.anticipated the way he would die and when you speak to riders and when
:02:30. > :02:34.they talk about the acceptance of death as the price to be paid for
:02:35. > :02:38.the buzz that they get out of it, when they say things like they would
:02:39. > :02:43.not do it but for the danger, then I think they have crossed the line.
:02:44. > :02:47.But you are saying this as a man who has never done it, so you do not get
:02:48. > :02:53.it. I have never taken heroin either. I have never shot anybody.
:02:54. > :02:58.But I do comment on these things. That is a fatuous point, Stephen.
:02:59. > :03:04.What do you mean? It is a fatuous point to say that I cant. I'm not
:03:05. > :03:08.saying you can't comment on it, because we have invited you to
:03:09. > :03:13.comment on it. What I am saying is you do not understand because you
:03:14. > :03:19.haven't done it, the dedication, the thrill, the passion, the commitment
:03:20. > :03:25.that some of these people have two that particular sport. Because you
:03:26. > :03:28.haven't done it, nor have I. These people have been contacting me all
:03:29. > :03:31.day and all week and they have been pouring into my Twitter feed and
:03:32. > :03:39.they are telling me that these men feel that it is almost worthwhile to
:03:40. > :03:44.die, and that it is better to have died in that way than any other way,
:03:45. > :03:48.that this is the price to be paid for the thrill that they get. They
:03:49. > :03:52.are telling me that on the Twitter feed. Look at my twitter feed and
:03:53. > :03:55.you will see it and you will see the comments from the people who love
:03:56. > :04:00.these men and who missed them and pine for them and still will say
:04:01. > :04:10.that he got the death he would have wished for. Well, Philip McCallan,
:04:11. > :04:14.you wear one of these men. Yes, it was my career, which I loved and
:04:15. > :04:19.which I was quite successful in. I was the only rider in the world to
:04:20. > :04:24.win five Northwest 's in one day. Do you take part in any sports? I think
:04:25. > :04:29.that is an irrelevant question and I have said that to Steven already. I
:04:30. > :04:33.do appreciate your opinion. You are entitled to it and everyone is, but
:04:34. > :04:38.I don't think you have ever had that satisfaction of winning and sport
:04:39. > :04:43.that you get and people who haven't had that. That is not the point. The
:04:44. > :04:51.point is people are dying. In every way of life, to be honest you, the
:04:52. > :04:55.amount of people who live their lives raising is very small to the
:04:56. > :05:00.amount to die on roads, the amount... And I am not here to slack
:05:01. > :05:03.off any other sport. I am only putting a comparison in. Passport
:05:04. > :05:13.takes less lives than many other sports. -- passport. What is your
:05:14. > :05:22.motive behind this? Now, there is a question. I do not think that
:05:23. > :05:26.anything good can be said about a young man of 20 dying at high speed
:05:27. > :05:30.on a motorbike for the entertainment of an audience. I cannot find
:05:31. > :05:36.anything of Merit in that. I can understand that people who look at
:05:37. > :05:39.him, you love that man, will try to rationalise it in some way, that
:05:40. > :05:44.there was some good in it, but there is no good in it. But we don't go
:05:45. > :05:50.out there to entertain you with death. Death is a very, very sad
:05:51. > :05:56.part of our sport, and an intrinsic part of it. Would you agree that men
:05:57. > :06:01.would not do it but for the danger? We are not addicted to the danger.
:06:02. > :06:07.The danger is a very sad part of the sport, so it is, and we do not wish
:06:08. > :06:13.that to happen anywhere. It is an inevitable part of your sport, isn't
:06:14. > :06:17.it, that some people will die? It is a possibility. Tell me why people
:06:18. > :06:22.are dying more now in the last ten years than in any decade since the
:06:23. > :06:28.1970s. Why is the death toll going up? I can't answer that exactly.
:06:29. > :06:32.Well, you should be able to. You are a man who knows bikes and who knows
:06:33. > :06:39.racing and you are quick to lecture me about how little I know, but tell
:06:40. > :06:42.me now why is that? It could be people training harder or accidents.
:06:43. > :06:51.Is it because the bikes are more powerful, can go faster? The speed,
:06:52. > :06:54.to be honest, the amount of crashes at 200 mph minimum, the crashes are
:06:55. > :07:01.happening at much less speed than that. So it is not 200 mph that is
:07:02. > :07:07.causing that. It is an accident. It is an accident that happens and it
:07:08. > :07:11.since -- it happens in all sports. I am not here to slack off other
:07:12. > :07:16.sports but we get thrills in different ways from different
:07:17. > :07:21.sports. But what price is too much? How many people would it take to die
:07:22. > :07:26.on our roads during this sport for people to say that is enough? One or
:07:27. > :07:34.two M deaths in Northern Ireland every other year, is that OK? If it
:07:35. > :07:38.became ten, would we start to contemplate stopping it? What is too
:07:39. > :07:43.much? One death is too many anywhere. One death is just not
:07:44. > :07:47.acceptable anywhere. Well, it is acceptable because the sport
:07:48. > :07:51.continues. Yes, it continues because people want to do it. The only way
:07:52. > :07:55.the sport continues its competitors want to compete and people want to
:07:56. > :08:01.watch it. We have a great heritage in this country of maybe 100 years
:08:02. > :08:07.of motorcycle racing and motorcycle racing contributes a lots to this
:08:08. > :08:15.country. Yes, death is a terrible thing, but motorcycle racing, that
:08:16. > :08:21.programme, the North West 200 goes out to many hundred million homes
:08:22. > :08:27.worldwide and it contributes approximately ?4.5 million into the
:08:28. > :08:32.local economy. 800 people take part in the North West 200, starting on
:08:33. > :08:37.St Patrick's Day. There are a lot of people contributing to the sport and
:08:38. > :08:42.there is a lot of business benefits. So are you going to take ?4.5
:08:43. > :08:51.million away? I am not saying stop it, but I would not want our economy
:08:52. > :08:56.to become dependent on it. Some people work hard to prevent deaths
:08:57. > :09:00.at these races with the chicanes and whatever. The way to prevent deaths
:09:01. > :09:04.at these races is to start discouraging young men from it,
:09:05. > :09:08.instead of encouraging them. That is what we are doing by covering it and
:09:09. > :09:11.through businesses like yours selling to them and through the
:09:12. > :09:15.promotion of racing, we are encouraging young men to take this
:09:16. > :09:18.up. We are having fathers of young men who have done this and died at
:09:19. > :09:23.it saying that it was a great thing that they did. And there has to be a
:09:24. > :09:27.counter voice saying this is not a great thing. And there is a father
:09:28. > :09:32.sitting beside me who lost his son. And all due respect and I hope I am
:09:33. > :09:40.not upsetting you. Stewart, your son Simon died at the North West 200 in
:09:41. > :09:49.2014. He was 29. 31. The riders all tell lies. What are your thoughts
:09:50. > :09:54.around this? I understand both sides of the argument. I can see the
:09:55. > :09:59.reasons for both of it at. However, it is all about the riders. You
:10:00. > :10:02.should remember that the North West 200, nobody drags these guys are the
:10:03. > :10:05.teams they are screaming and howling. The guys are professional
:10:06. > :10:09.sportsman and they want to perform and they want to perform against
:10:10. > :10:13.themselves as well as with the machinery. It is in their spirit.
:10:14. > :10:16.Whether you can take it out of the blood, I don't know, but most of
:10:17. > :10:21.them really enjoy the racing, and what you were saying earlier about
:10:22. > :10:24.the people on your Twitter feed and all of that, but that is not my
:10:25. > :10:28.experience with most of the riders. Most of them trained very hard, they
:10:29. > :10:32.do a lot of research and they never believe anything is going to happen
:10:33. > :10:37.to them. Did you try to stop your son doing it? No. He was a grown
:10:38. > :10:41.man. We talked about it. The only thing we ever said was 11 days
:10:42. > :10:46.before he went to the North West 200 and died, I sent him and e-mail
:10:47. > :10:48.saying that we always agreed Wonderwall and if it stopped
:10:49. > :10:54.becoming fun, you would stop doing it, and he said fine. He said he was
:10:55. > :11:03.having so much fun and was enjoying himself. He had an accident. Many
:11:04. > :11:11.people have had accidents and gone back to it. Robert Dunlop, it was
:11:12. > :11:15.the machine who let him down, so the idea that you can have the skill
:11:16. > :11:20.that will get you out of these difficulties is a myth as well.
:11:21. > :11:30.Well, the only thing I would say when that is Simon was that the
:11:31. > :11:34.Lamont 24-hour and he went off and the break got caught and it threw
:11:35. > :11:38.him off and he smashed into a while antigrowth -- broke both of his
:11:39. > :11:43.legs, punctured his long, brokers spying in three places and that was
:11:44. > :11:49.on the 21st, ruptured both of these eyes, and that was on the 21st of
:11:50. > :11:53.September. On the 11th of December, he was already and I took into Egypt
:11:54. > :11:56.and then by the April, he was back again and he was with this company
:11:57. > :12:02.doing the physio and all he wanted to do was get back on the motorbike
:12:03. > :12:07.and race. It was his happiest time, racing his motorbike. What is that
:12:08. > :12:11.all about? What is the thrill? What is the dicing with danger? What of
:12:12. > :12:15.the appeal of that? I don't think it is just icing with danger, I think
:12:16. > :12:19.it is all about they take a long time to wear their trying to get two
:12:20. > :12:24.and they trained very hard and there is no money. They do not make any
:12:25. > :12:28.money at all. It is just the fact of humanity against the machine. Let me
:12:29. > :12:34.speak to the audience. Hello. I go to the North West 200 every year and
:12:35. > :12:38.I also go to the Isle of Man TT every year and it is a fantastic
:12:39. > :12:45.event. I have always wondered about the local communities, and I can say
:12:46. > :12:51.that it paints Northern Ireland in the fantastic light. The riders know
:12:52. > :12:56.the risks but they love the sport. But as a society, we curtail risk,
:12:57. > :13:01.don't we? And we draw a line in all walks of life, so we are not allowed
:13:02. > :13:05.to drive down the road without a seat belt on because society decides
:13:06. > :13:11.you are not doing that, whether you want to or not. We cannot drive on
:13:12. > :13:15.the roads at 100 mph if we want to because society decides it is too
:13:16. > :13:18.dangerous for us and others, so this argument I keep hearing that these
:13:19. > :13:20.guys know the risks and that makes it OK, does it?
:13:21. > :13:30.the risk, does it make it OK? People go there for other reasons as well,
:13:31. > :13:32.they go for the racing and the music aspect. There are so many different
:13:33. > :13:39.varieties there that attract people both to the North 200 and Isle of
:13:40. > :13:45.Man TT. So are we saying, over the next few years, some young men will
:13:46. > :13:52.die, it is part and parcel of the sport, we will just continue
:13:53. > :13:55.counting them, it might be one the year, maybe one year will be lucky
:13:56. > :14:03.and it will be two the next, is that tolerable, is that what you are
:14:04. > :14:07.saying? No death is acceptable. What does that mean, if it is not
:14:08. > :14:11.acceptable what does it mean? I came across here at six o'clock this
:14:12. > :14:19.evening and by now we are at 11pm and probably three people have been
:14:20. > :14:22.killed on the road in the UK and we accept that. I looked at the quarter
:14:23. > :14:32.figures because I knew it would come into this, in the last quarter of
:14:33. > :14:35.2015 1780 people were killed on the road. But we tell people to reduce
:14:36. > :14:45.their speed because speed kills. What would you say to a man have 20
:14:46. > :14:48.who said that he wanted to get into this, get on a bike and race, would
:14:49. > :14:57.you say that was a wonderful thing to do? I would say talk to your
:14:58. > :15:00.parents seriously about it because there are no guarantees you will be
:15:01. > :15:03.safe doing anything in this life and unfortunately we all lose people we
:15:04. > :15:05.love. In my village two people were killed just walking down the road
:15:06. > :15:15.couple of weeks before the North West 200. No matter how we look at
:15:16. > :15:26.it, my condolences to the family. Malachi's father Kevin paid tribute
:15:27. > :15:40.to his son after his death. I've lost my best friend, I've lost
:15:41. > :15:43.my son. He was a fantastic personality, not a bad bone in his
:15:44. > :15:46.body and no one has a bad word to say about him. I want to thank the
:15:47. > :15:51.paramedics for trying to save him at the roadside and the organisers for
:15:52. > :15:55.putting on a fantastic event, the information that came out, the way
:15:56. > :15:58.they helped me when things went wrong. It was a great event and it
:15:59. > :16:17.was saddened by his loss. That note said, if I'm going to go
:16:18. > :16:24.it will be fast and on a bike. My goodness, that is powerful. He
:16:25. > :16:27.anticipated he would die on a bike and many of them do, and many of
:16:28. > :16:40.them leave clues in their writing and the things they say. Lee Greg is
:16:41. > :16:43.the director of research and policy -- Neil Gregg at IAM Road Smart. Is
:16:44. > :16:47.there an acceptable death toll? There can never be an acceptable
:16:48. > :16:58.death toll. If you look at Formula 1,
:16:59. > :17:02.Moto GP, circuit racing, that is the kind of targets, it is rated seed
:17:03. > :17:04.deaths in these sports, and in history it tends to be the drivers
:17:05. > :17:07.and riders who have driven that improvement. But in road racing it
:17:08. > :17:14.seems the riders do understand the risks, that is what they are
:17:15. > :17:16.therefore, that is the buzz they get, and they are not pressing from
:17:17. > :17:24.proof months. Formula 1 drivers got together and said no more deaths in
:17:25. > :17:27.Formula 1 and they designed the cars and circuits to drive down the
:17:28. > :17:34.deaths. There is a constant effort to upgrade safety and people get
:17:35. > :17:36.killed. I want to show you this at home.
:17:37. > :17:38.On the same stretch of road where Malachi Mitchell-Thomas died,
:17:39. > :17:40.two days beforehand, another racer, Ryan Farquhar, also crashed
:17:41. > :17:44.Do you know what, I'm actually in two minds
:17:45. > :17:53.We are talking about how safe this sport is, and whether they should
:17:54. > :17:58.We are going to show you the footage of Ryan's crash -
:17:59. > :18:09.just a warning that some of you might find this uncomfortable.
:18:10. > :18:22.Cooper was looking to pass far quite. It will all come down to the
:18:23. > :18:25.last lap. Oh, dear, huge one. Ryan Farquhar went down and Ben Cooper
:18:26. > :18:35.hit the debris, so there will be a stoppage almost certainly. Look at
:18:36. > :18:37.that human beings spinning along the road. Unfortunately it was an
:18:38. > :18:45.accident. When you are striving to try to be the best at things and win
:18:46. > :19:00.races, accidents can happen. He's in his 40s, he gave up motor racing in
:19:01. > :19:03.2012 and he went back to it. He knew the risks, people keep saying they
:19:04. > :19:06.know the risks as if this is a positive thing, I say it is an odd
:19:07. > :19:08.thing that somebody knows these risks. We will all die someday and
:19:09. > :19:14.some people are better prepared for it than others. I would like to die
:19:15. > :19:27.at 120. Your wish is not going to come true. Ryan's wish, those boys
:19:28. > :19:30.wishes was to win races and have a career out of it. Unfortunately it
:19:31. > :19:32.is sad sometimes, and mistake happens, but we strive different
:19:33. > :19:42.ways. You want to write the best paragraph, the best paper, the best
:19:43. > :19:44.thing. You have heard the argument many times, why not stop boxing,
:19:45. > :19:49.horse racing, rugby, martial arts, UFC, diving, would you ban all those
:19:50. > :19:58.things, would you try to curtail all those sports? Would you stop people
:19:59. > :20:00.mountaineering or fishing? I would have problems with people who go man
:20:01. > :20:05.to nearing in ludicrous conditions, but at the same time, the point
:20:06. > :20:11.about road racing is different from motorsport in that is about --
:20:12. > :20:16.different from other sports in that it is about facing deaths. Part of
:20:17. > :20:32.your commentary is about how the BBC makes this sport exciting. That's
:20:33. > :20:34.right. Butchered the BBC not be making sport exciting? I think what
:20:35. > :20:36.we should be doing around this sport is playing it down, discouraging
:20:37. > :20:38.young people from getting involved in it, recognising that there is
:20:39. > :20:43.something slightly odd about people wanting to go that fast. It is not
:20:44. > :20:49.for them to encourage it. This is not like Rory McIlroy in the golf
:20:50. > :20:59.and a fine young man going out and hitting a ball faster and further
:21:00. > :21:02.and more accurately than anyone else, this is about a man getting on
:21:03. > :21:05.a bike and going on speeds way his life will be at stake. Talking about
:21:06. > :21:09.the BBC, during your commentary, this is what the BBC decides is
:21:10. > :21:18.unacceptable on air, this is part of your commentary, was it last week?
:21:19. > :21:21.Yes. It's just unbelievable, the best feeling you've had in the
:21:22. > :21:27.world, it's better than that. That's you talking about going at 200 mph.
:21:28. > :21:37.It's just unbelievable, better than the best feeling you've ever had in
:21:38. > :21:40.the world. Have you ever been in a position where you have in courage
:21:41. > :21:50.to people to go into biking and they have been injured? I have never
:21:51. > :21:52.encouraged anyone. What message does that send to kids? That is your
:21:53. > :21:55.opinion, this is my opinion. But what message does it send to kids
:21:56. > :21:58.watching the BBC, the best feeling you've had in your life, 200 miles
:21:59. > :22:04.an hour feels better, is that responsible? If it is in a closed
:22:05. > :22:12.circuit in control conditions there is no problem. Those crashes are not
:22:13. > :22:15.at 200 miles an hour. There have been very minimal crashes, in fact
:22:16. > :22:20.there has never been a crash at 200 miles an hour. That is not causing
:22:21. > :22:28.the crashes. The crashes are on the bends. I was expressing the feeling
:22:29. > :22:31.is the way you were -- my feelings. We all have feelings in different
:22:32. > :22:39.ways, some people get that going up a mountain. RJ is here tonight.
:22:40. > :22:45.Would you want your children to race? I have been down this street
:22:46. > :22:52.before, there is no point playing the same record. I am all for road
:22:53. > :22:59.racing, but you have to remember a public road isn't a controlled
:23:00. > :23:03.environment. I have a motorcycle and I wouldn't dream of going over 60
:23:04. > :23:15.miles an hour because the amount of times I have come across mistake saw
:23:16. > :23:17.sunlight or something on the road, and a closed environment has a
:23:18. > :23:21.medical team. I am talking about the tan druggie 100, the North West 200
:23:22. > :23:27.is a big operation. In the paper last year usage you would want your
:23:28. > :23:35.kids to raise. I wouldn't want to be in this gentleman's position. If my
:23:36. > :23:38.child chose to race I guide them the way I have guided myself. My father
:23:39. > :23:50.told me if I ever brought a motorbike home he would destroy it.
:23:51. > :23:52.When I learned the circuits I built it up and had time to think between
:23:53. > :23:54.corners and learner circuit. You were talking about Ryan Farquhar,
:23:55. > :23:59.thankfully he is recovering and he is a very close friend of mine. I
:24:00. > :24:07.took the notion of doing the Manx Grand Prix in 2013, and I wanted the
:24:08. > :24:13.best bike available, not the fastest, bikes with brand-new burns
:24:14. > :24:15.and wheels. I think we should continue this conversation, we have
:24:16. > :24:30.been talking about it quite a lot, let's continue it on our
:24:31. > :24:32.different social media channels. I'm sorry what happened to your son.
:24:33. > :24:33.Thank you very much. Please thank our guests.
:24:34. > :24:35.APPLAUSE. We have to leave the debate there,
:24:36. > :24:38.but don't forget you can let Tweet me @stephennolan,
:24:39. > :24:41.or use our hashtag #BBCNolan. Or you can text us 81771
:24:42. > :24:44.texts will be charged And as ever, we'll also keep
:24:45. > :24:49.the conversation going on the Nolan radio show tomorrow morning on Radio
:24:50. > :25:07.Ulster. The Nolan radio show, Monday to
:25:08. > :25:14.Friday, nine o'clock. Bringing you the big news of the day. We have to
:25:15. > :25:23.have a fundamental change in policies with regards to our. The
:25:24. > :25:33.debate. But. Longer lunch breaks the people who are obese can eat more.
:25:34. > :25:37.On radio. I am so angry it is just a red mist. On TV and online. The
:25:38. > :25:40.biggest show in the country, the Nolan Show, from the BBC.
:25:41. > :25:42.Now our next guests are not for the faint-hearted -
:25:43. > :25:44.and please don't try any of these stunts at home.
:25:45. > :25:47.Combining bizarre freak show acts with rock n' roll,
:25:48. > :26:19.Welcome to the carnival to the greatest show on Earth, welcome to
:26:20. > :26:29.my freak show. Welcome to the carnival. Welcome to my freak show,
:26:30. > :26:46.yeah. All right! Step inside, step inside, let the
:26:47. > :26:52.revelries begin. Step inside. We've got the tallest, the smallest, the
:26:53. > :27:05.Baptist in the land to feed the curiosities of each and every man.
:27:06. > :27:09.Welcome to the carnival. Welcome to my freak show, yeah, yeah. Freak, so
:27:10. > :27:21.chic! Ladies and gentlemen, introducing
:27:22. > :27:30.the world's greatest sword swallower! We love in very cynical
:27:31. > :27:36.signs -- times and people do not believe that the sword swallowing is
:27:37. > :27:40.true. They think the sword retracts into the handle. Of course, it
:27:41. > :27:46.doesn't. There are sword swallower is all over the world proving
:27:47. > :27:54.otherwise. We intend to prove that sword swallowing is indeed a genuine
:27:55. > :27:59.art and we are going to do that because the first sword he is going
:28:00. > :28:06.to swallow has no handle. It is 18 inches long and attached to a handle
:28:07. > :28:13.of chains. We will ask him to put the sword into his mouth, into his
:28:14. > :28:29.throat, passed his lungs, until only the chain is protruding. Here goes.
:28:30. > :28:38.The next sword he will swallow is in fact a curved cutlass with 845
:28:39. > :28:44.degrees curve upon it. To allow Hannibal to swallow this beauty, he
:28:45. > :28:48.has to have even more body modifications. We will show you some
:28:49. > :28:52.of those later, but meanwhile, he will take the curved cutlass, place
:28:53. > :28:58.it inside his mouth, force it down his throat, his whole head, neck,
:28:59. > :29:04.and body must bend to the curvature of the blade. If he fails to do this
:29:05. > :29:08.correctly, you will surely appears his oesophagus again. Ladies and
:29:09. > :29:22.gentlemen, Hannibal! From darkest Africa, the voodoo
:29:23. > :30:35.warrior! Cheering. You have been watching
:30:36. > :30:45.Hannibal and Maria and are voodoo warrior.
:30:46. > :30:49.APPLAUSE I don't know if I want to come
:30:50. > :30:58.anywhere near you. That is just bizarre. Thank you. Insane. And this
:30:59. > :31:03.man looks completely and utterly like he needs locked up. And believe
:31:04. > :31:10.it or not, when he first joined the circus and I first met him, he was a
:31:11. > :31:13.tax inspector. In his native Germany, where we wear for a month
:31:14. > :31:18.in Munich to see the show, he fell in love with the show and decided to
:31:19. > :31:28.leave work in the civil service and become a sword swallower. So George
:31:29. > :31:33.Osborne, there is hope for him yet. So you are coming to Northern
:31:34. > :31:41.Ireland. What will be gay be? -- gig. It will be a performance with
:31:42. > :31:47.musicians and a great amalgamation of rock music and bizarre stuff and
:31:48. > :31:51.also acts of great beauty. We turn a negative word, horror, into a very
:31:52. > :32:00.positive word. People really enjoy themselves. People all over the
:32:01. > :32:06.world. Great to be back here where I started my performing career. At 11
:32:07. > :32:10.years old, I was... I had not known my dad for a very long because he
:32:11. > :32:16.had run away from my mum. There is a picture of me as a fire eater. There
:32:17. > :32:19.is one of me as a baby. My dad deserted us in that very van there
:32:20. > :32:25.when I was six months old and did not see him for 11 years. My mum
:32:26. > :32:31.tried to sue him for maintenance and then the courts managed to get them
:32:32. > :32:35.together. What is he doing with his ribs? He has many body
:32:36. > :32:45.modifications. He has the teeth and the tongue. Does he speak? Yes, no
:32:46. > :32:53.problem. I can speak. What did you do with your ribs? They were broken
:32:54. > :33:08.so that the swords can go down. We got them floating ribs. Show him.
:33:09. > :33:15.Argh! We are going to see a sword go in. Yes, and you're going help us.
:33:16. > :33:37.Ask him to take the sword. Once it is deep inside him, he will
:33:38. > :33:53.bend forward, pushing his internal organs and you are going to pull it
:33:54. > :34:01.out. New go, Stephen. Argh! I could feel the vibration. I thought it was
:34:02. > :34:08.plastic or a trick. Unbelievable. We look forward to the show.
:34:09. > :34:13.APPLAUSE Thank you, thank you.
:34:14. > :34:15.Before we get into our next debate, let's touch on politics.
:34:16. > :34:18.The folks on the hill are still in talks about agreeing
:34:19. > :34:20.a way forward at Stormont and a programme for government.
:34:21. > :34:25.So we sent Vinny out onto the streets.
:34:26. > :34:33.We're asking people about Stormont, the new Assembly. What is important
:34:34. > :34:40.to you? Did strike to get work for young parents with children and more
:34:41. > :34:47.childcare help facilities. It doesn't meant -- it doesn't benefit
:34:48. > :34:52.me to work because of childcare. What should they be prioritising?
:34:53. > :35:01.Gay rights. I think it is high time Northern Ireland came into the 20s
:35:02. > :35:05.-- 21st century. What do our politicians need to be doing?
:35:06. > :35:14.Getting their finger out. Welfare system. Just job wise for people and
:35:15. > :35:21.things like that. Education. It is really important that they focus in
:35:22. > :35:25.special education. Stop arguing and fighting. I want you to look down at
:35:26. > :35:30.lens until the politicians what you want them to do for you. I want the
:35:31. > :35:34.politicians at Stormont to make a better future for my children.
:35:35. > :35:42.Anything you would like to add? Nothing at all. Wouldn't change
:35:43. > :35:50.anything. Same old, same old. APPLAUSE
:35:51. > :35:50.He may be out and about near you for next week.
:35:51. > :35:53.Abortion is back in the headlines - and on Stormont's agenda.
:35:54. > :35:55.MLAs from different parties are planning fresh
:35:56. > :35:58.Official figures this week showed 833 women from Northern Ireland
:35:59. > :36:00.travelled to Great Britain for a termination last year.
:36:01. > :36:03.And then you have the big issue of abortion pills available online.
:36:04. > :36:06.Does that undermine the laws we have?
:36:07. > :36:14.And should women who buy and use these pills be prosecuted?
:36:15. > :36:16.Joining me is Marion Woods from Life NI,
:36:17. > :36:18.Dawn McAvoy from the Evangelical Alliance,
:36:19. > :36:21.Emma Campbell from Alliance For Choice,
:36:22. > :36:23.And from a studio in Copenhagen, Dr Rebecca Gomperts
:36:24. > :36:33.who is a physician and human rights activist.
:36:34. > :36:45.Doctor Gompertz, you sell these pills. Is that correct? No, we do
:36:46. > :36:53.not sell pills. It is a service that is giving information to women that
:36:54. > :36:57.contact us and for the women who need to be told that they can go to
:36:58. > :37:01.England and get medicines locally and if they have no other options,
:37:02. > :37:05.we can refer them to our doctors who prescribe the pills and then we ask
:37:06. > :37:11.for a donation. The women who cannot afford the donation, they can take
:37:12. > :37:16.it. We are working together with a pharmacy in India who provides the
:37:17. > :37:20.medicine. So you facilitate people getting them? Why are you doing
:37:21. > :37:28.that? You just want to flout the law, do you? Well, no. It is a very
:37:29. > :37:33.well-known way to increase access to health services where they are not
:37:34. > :37:37.available. At the moment, in the US and Australia there are also these
:37:38. > :37:40.kind of abortions. But they are not available because people in a local
:37:41. > :37:45.area have a democracy and the politicians who create legislation,
:37:46. > :37:48.given a mandate by the citizens in that country, decide that they
:37:49. > :37:56.should not be lawful. What you do is undermine that. So this law of
:37:57. > :38:01.Northern Ireland is from 1870. Since then, there have been a lot of human
:38:02. > :38:05.rights convention signed and all of these human rights conventions say
:38:06. > :38:08.that women's rights are being violated when abortion is being
:38:09. > :38:13.criminalised. These conventions overrule all of the local laws. I am
:38:14. > :38:18.complying with international human rights laws. Right, so you are
:38:19. > :38:25.overruling our laws here in Northern Ireland from Copenhagen. You know a
:38:26. > :38:30.lot about Northern Ireland? What happens is that women in Northern
:38:31. > :38:36.Ireland have urgent medical needs. They need safe abortions. They don't
:38:37. > :38:39.have any other option. How much, Rebecca, do you know about these
:38:40. > :38:47.women before you facilitate them getting these pills? Do you ever
:38:48. > :38:51.meet them? Well, it is about medical care on a distance so it has been
:38:52. > :38:55.proven to be extremely safe. What we do is we ask exactly the same
:38:56. > :39:01.questions as a face-to-face doctor consultation would do. That is
:39:02. > :39:04.enough and has been proven by research, by the World Health
:39:05. > :39:13.Organisation, to find safe abortion services. Dawn, what is your
:39:14. > :39:16.reaction? The 1861 act, the fact that it dates from them is
:39:17. > :39:21.irrelevant. It is not the date of the law, it is the content that
:39:22. > :39:25.matters. There is no human right to abort because both lives matter and
:39:26. > :39:29.there are two lives involved here. We reject completely the charge that
:39:30. > :39:37.human rights should be used to end human life. There is no human right
:39:38. > :39:40.to abortion. The law here defends, recognises both laws, recognises the
:39:41. > :39:45.humanity of the on-board and so we defend the law as it stands. But you
:39:46. > :39:49.can have all of the laws that you want, but if these pills are freely
:39:50. > :39:54.available online, the law is undermined. It is more than an
:39:55. > :39:57.individual woman's right to choose we would encourage the judicial
:39:58. > :40:01.system and the police to consider how best to deal with illegal
:40:02. > :40:09.abortion bills. Abortion isn't health care. It is not necessary for
:40:10. > :40:13.women. The last year still values human life, that it sits under
:40:14. > :40:17.criminal law. We're not talking about a handbag that should be under
:40:18. > :40:24.civil law, it is not property. The unborn child is not the property of
:40:25. > :40:33.the mother, it added value. -- it has value. Well, life Northern
:40:34. > :40:36.Ireland believes in the intrinsic value of life from conception and
:40:37. > :40:41.what we strive to do is to support women who find themselves in these
:40:42. > :40:44.difficult situations and as a caring charity, we have every sympathy for
:40:45. > :40:48.any woman who finds themselves in a situation where they think that they
:40:49. > :40:52.have no other option but to turn to an abortion pill. But we would
:40:53. > :40:56.remind them, especially whenever they are purchasing pills online,
:40:57. > :40:59.they do not know what they are getting. They cannot guarantee that
:41:00. > :41:03.what they receive in the post is what they actually have asked for.
:41:04. > :41:06.Not only that, they are risking their own health and obviously they
:41:07. > :41:11.are terminating the life of the unborn child. We know that women in
:41:12. > :41:16.Northern Ireland turn to services like women on the web, simply
:41:17. > :41:19.because the access to the very safe health care is not available under
:41:20. > :41:25.the law in Northern Ireland. The current law, as it stands, is happy
:41:26. > :41:32.for women to go to England and need the Netherlands and further afield
:41:33. > :41:36.to access abortion. The MLAs are only interested in criminalising
:41:37. > :41:39.women who have abortions here using very safe medicine. They are happy
:41:40. > :41:43.for women in Northern Ireland to have abortions as long as they do
:41:44. > :41:48.not have them in Northern Ireland. I think that is a nonsense. I am
:41:49. > :41:54.sorry. It is not a matter of... How would you stop women? Do you suggest
:41:55. > :41:59.that we don't let women leave? The law is valid here in Northern
:42:00. > :42:04.Ireland because the MLAs have chosen to be pro life in their stands. I
:42:05. > :42:08.honestly do not believe that the majority of women believe that they
:42:09. > :42:12.need an abortion in order to flourish, and a society that tells
:42:13. > :42:16.us that we need abortion in order to flourish is not a society that I
:42:17. > :42:21.think we should be living in. You can't talk about women as a whole.
:42:22. > :42:28.You can't talk about what women think because different women think
:42:29. > :42:32.differently. differently. I was going to say, yes, different women
:42:33. > :42:37.will think differently. But what you can say is no matter what the
:42:38. > :42:48.situation, since humans have started to reproduce, is the development of
:42:49. > :42:50.the unborn child in the womb, and that's what we would ask people to
:42:51. > :42:57.think carefully about and educate themselves. Go-ahead. It was clear
:42:58. > :42:59.from the statistics this week and women buying abortion pills online
:43:00. > :43:04.that the Lord Rennard island are not stopping women having Washington's,
:43:05. > :43:09.it stops them having safely. -- having abortions. I think it's time
:43:10. > :43:18.we trusted women to make decisions relating to their own bodies. As I
:43:19. > :43:23.said, I think the law is showing that it is protecting unborn lives
:43:24. > :43:35.because for four live births across the water there is one abortion. For
:43:36. > :43:37.Northern Ireland figures there are 25 live births for one abortion.
:43:38. > :43:41.Those are reported figures. Even if it were doubled that... Many women
:43:42. > :43:47.don't give a Northern Irishman postcode. We also know our figures
:43:48. > :43:51.are similar to the Republic of Ireland, and last year 1300 packages
:43:52. > :44:01.of abortion pills were seized. What do you think of these pills? The
:44:02. > :44:04.World Heath Organisation says they are safer than Viagra and aspirin
:44:05. > :44:07.and they have saved hundreds of women's lives. You have helped women
:44:08. > :44:13.get them here. I have worked with Rebecca on many occasions. So you
:44:14. > :44:16.have aided women to get these pills which is against the law? It is none
:44:17. > :44:21.of my business why a woman wants to continue with a pregnancy or not and
:44:22. > :44:28.it is safer that she has access to these pills from a reputable source.
:44:29. > :44:39.It is against the law although the law has been shown to contravene
:44:40. > :44:42.many human rights standards. So you decide you are going to break the
:44:43. > :44:44.law, and by the way it is also against medical advice, isn't it? It
:44:45. > :44:54.is not. I can read to you from Murray Stopes who ran campaigns in
:44:55. > :44:55.favour of abortion services. "We Do not recommend taking medical
:44:56. > :45:02.abortion pills without the supervision of a trained family
:45:03. > :45:07.planning professional". Which is what the women consult online.
:45:08. > :45:11.Someone on the other side of the world? We are forcing women to
:45:12. > :45:17.travel to England to get help because the MLAs had too frightened
:45:18. > :45:28.to change the law. Do not purchase them online, says Murray Stopes
:45:29. > :45:39.comic you may be risking your-. Not from Women Help Women. They
:45:40. > :45:41.interview women to make sure they have no contraindications. Despite
:45:42. > :45:44.you knowing it is against the law, when a woman wants these pills you
:45:45. > :45:53.help get them, do you deliver them? It used to be against the law in
:45:54. > :45:56.Northern Ireland to have gay sex and people still did it because it is a
:45:57. > :46:00.human rights now recognised. Do you deliver them? I will not tell you
:46:01. > :46:06.what I do. I help women who need it. I also volunteer at Murray Stopes
:46:07. > :46:11.and help women in. Have the police questioned you? They have questioned
:46:12. > :46:16.me to do with my escort in women to marry Stopes. Have they questioned
:46:17. > :46:20.you about breaking the law in terms of these pills or arrested or
:46:21. > :46:30.cautioned you? They haven't. Why not, Chief Constable? We have a
:46:31. > :46:42.statement from the police we can read. Let's have a look at this.
:46:43. > :46:46.Is it for the police to get involved in emotion? I thought they just
:46:47. > :46:49.followed the law, why are they saying it is a most if -- it is
:46:50. > :47:07.emotive? Police would remind the public not
:47:08. > :47:17.to tape and prescribed prescription jugs as it is potentially harmful
:47:18. > :47:20.without appropriate medical supervision -- prescription drugs.
:47:21. > :47:22.That is the police statement. Is it not an extraordinary situation that
:47:23. > :47:32.someone in the studio tonight is saying she breaks the law and the
:47:33. > :47:35.police don't go near it. It is not for me to say if you should be
:47:36. > :47:44.prosecuted, that is for the CPS, but they don't question you. Can I ask
:47:45. > :47:47.you something? Yes. We are talking about real women in real lives and
:47:48. > :48:01.not just about an abstract law. We have so
:48:02. > :48:04.many e-mail correspondence, there are many women in Northern Ireland
:48:05. > :48:07.who are extremely poor, who don't have the money to travel to England.
:48:08. > :48:10.This is a matter of social justice. Women are poor who are entitled to
:48:11. > :48:15.the same health care. Said the answer to poverty is the ending of
:48:16. > :48:24.the human life? Breeder Hughes from the Royal College of midwives. I
:48:25. > :48:29.think the Royal College of midwives is very clear that abortion is in
:48:30. > :48:36.fact a health-care issue, not a moral issue, it is a health-care
:48:37. > :48:40.issue. But across the world women died because they cannot access
:48:41. > :48:49.safe, legal abortions. Not in Northern Ireland. With women having
:48:50. > :48:59.access to pills on the web, which are as Emma has said perfectly safe
:49:00. > :49:09.if taken possibly... How do you know what's in them? They are the kosher
:49:10. > :49:15.substance, they are safe. The Royal College of midwives this week also
:49:16. > :49:26.called for complete decriminalisation without asking
:49:27. > :49:29.their midwives or consulting them and would say abortion throughout
:49:30. > :49:32.the UK... Can I go back to what I said before I was interrupted? These
:49:33. > :49:44.drugs are safe if taken as directed and if the women are counselled. Can
:49:45. > :49:45.that happen online? Lots of people have telephone conversations and
:49:46. > :49:48.medicines prescribed with their doctors. What happens in Northern
:49:49. > :49:52.Ireland if a woman buys these pills because she doesn't have the money
:49:53. > :49:59.to go to Britain, she suffers a adverse effect and she is afraid to
:50:00. > :50:11.seek medical help because she fears she
:50:12. > :50:14.will be prosecuted. I think until now there has been complacency,
:50:15. > :50:16.people saying, they will never prosecute a woman for this. They
:50:17. > :50:19.have, and there was another case adjourned today, and at least two
:50:20. > :50:22.more from the justice system. We think the police service should
:50:23. > :50:35.prosecute these women, -- I den think it is the in -- in the
:50:36. > :50:38.interest of health and Society. We are out of time but there is clearly
:50:39. > :50:40.more discussions to have on this tonight. Thank you to our guests,
:50:41. > :50:40.give them a round of applause. APPLAUSE.
:50:41. > :50:43.Before we end the show tonight, let's talk to a local couple
:50:44. > :50:46.who have won the hearts of the nation, or at
:50:47. > :50:57.Ladies and gentlemen, it's Ian and Ann Marshall!
:50:58. > :51:20.Ladies and gentlemen, it's Ian and Ann Marshall!
:51:21. > :51:39.CHEERING AND APPLAUSE. Hello, have a seat! Well, they recognise you from
:51:40. > :51:42.the big show, don't they, unbelievable. What was it like on
:51:43. > :51:47.the stage? Fabulous, fantastic. You are a bit of a nutter, I saw that
:51:48. > :52:03.straightaway, this woman is completely eccentric. Just like you!
:52:04. > :52:06.APPLAUSE. That's what I said to Simon, you didn't see this in the
:52:07. > :52:09.clip, I said to Simon Cowell, she's just like you, she's a subtle as a
:52:10. > :52:15.brick behind the year. How long have you been married? 44 years. When did
:52:16. > :52:21.you start singing together? A year ago. I am looking at the crowd here
:52:22. > :52:30.because I don't fancy you... LAUGHTER Not until you've tried it,
:52:31. > :52:37.big lad! You see those wooden dolls on that screen, that was taken in
:52:38. > :52:42.Hong Kong, we are like little china dolls, like one of those
:52:43. > :52:46.old-fashioned picture things. But when we went on the show we had a
:52:47. > :53:01.fantastic time, there was a lot you didn't see on the actual show. White
:53:02. > :53:04.and there's so much I am finding out about U2, but there are lots of back
:53:05. > :53:09.stories, for example one of you has lost a lot of weight, who was that?
:53:10. > :53:17.Do you think it was me? Do I look like I needed to lose weight? It was
:53:18. > :53:23.you? He was as big as you last November! And sure you're glad he's
:53:24. > :53:29.not as big as me now. I thought he was going to cut a few pounds of
:53:30. > :53:37.you, the man with the sword. I could give you a few tips but whether you
:53:38. > :53:41.take them and I don't know. The other back story I heard, it you
:53:42. > :53:50.lived on the streets. I was a runaway 14, my father was a bare
:53:51. > :53:52.knuckle fighter and an alcoholic, my mother was sanatorium, no wonder
:53:53. > :54:04.with around, and I ran away because he beat me for not making sure the
:54:05. > :54:07.House was clear enough. And basically I lived on the street from
:54:08. > :54:15.14, and I wanted to tell you this, I didn't steal a thing, I went hungry,
:54:16. > :54:20.I had nothing, I didn't take, I ate rotten food from garbage cans or
:54:21. > :54:31.anything, had my shoes stolen. The thing is, you see, I'm not living on
:54:32. > :54:34.this story. This is a positive. I know, because the big smile on your
:54:35. > :54:43.face and the joy you to clearly have in your marriage... I am a master
:54:44. > :54:48.chef today. The joy he had was meeting a Northern Irishman.
:54:49. > :54:56.APPLAUSE. Will you take us out of the show 's singing. We will bring
:54:57. > :54:59.the show out with you tonight. Go ahead. Give me a kiss first.
:55:00. > :55:01.That's almost it for another action-packed Nolan Live.
:55:02. > :55:04.Wou can continue the conversation with me after the show
:55:05. > :55:07.But singing us out tonight with their fun version
:55:08. > :55:09.of Beyonce's Crazy In Love, it's Ian Ann!
:55:10. > :55:12.of Beyonce's Crazy In Love, it's Ian Anne!
:55:13. > :55:56.# I look and stare so deep in your eyes,
:55:57. > :55:58.# I touch on you more and more every time,
:55:59. > :56:01.# When you leave I'm begging you not to go,
:56:02. > :56:04.# Call your name two or three times in a row,
:56:05. > :56:06.# Such a funny thing for me to try to explain,
:56:07. > :56:09.# How I'm feeling and my pride is the one to blame.
:56:10. > :56:12.# But I just don't understand How your love can do
:56:13. > :56:16.# Got me looking so crazy right now, your love's
:56:17. > :56:18.# Got me looking so crazy right now in love
:56:19. > :56:20.# Got me looking so crazy right now, your touch
:56:21. > :56:25.# Got me hoping you'll page me right now, your kiss
:56:26. > :56:27.# Got me hoping you'll save me right now
:56:28. > :56:30.# Looking so crazy in love's got me looking, got me
:56:31. > :56:58.# Got me looking so crazy right now, your love's
:56:59. > :57:00.# Got me looking so crazy right now in love
:57:01. > :57:03.# Got me looking so crazy right now, your touch
:57:04. > :57:07.# Got me hoping you'll page me right now, your kiss
:57:08. > :57:09.# Got me hoping you'll save me right now
:57:10. > :57:12.# Looking so crazy in love's got me looking, got me
:57:13. > :57:39.# Oh yeah, doo-ba-doo-ba-ba-ba-boom-boom
:57:40. > :57:52.# Got me looking, so crazy, my baby I'm foolish,
:57:53. > :58:18.# Got me looking, so crazy, my baby I'm foolish,
:58:19. > :58:20.# Got me looking so crazy right now, your touch
:58:21. > :58:25.# Got me hoping you'll page me right now, your kiss
:58:26. > :58:27.# Got me hoping you'll save me right now
:58:28. > :58:30.# Looking so crazy in love's got me looking, got me
:58:31. > :58:34.# Got me looking so crazy right now, your love's
:58:35. > :58:36.# Got me looking so crazy right now in love
:58:37. > :58:38.# Got me looking so crazy right now, your touch
:58:39. > :58:43.# Got me hoping you'll page me right now, your kiss
:58:44. > :58:45.# Got me hoping you'll save me right now
:58:46. > :58:49.# Looking so crazy in love's got me looking, got me