:00:11. > :00:20.We have an excellent show tonight. We have Jude Collins, or compare the
:00:21. > :00:27.Boys' Brigade to dissident republicans. We will hear from
:00:28. > :00:29.television presenter Anthea Turner and have music from Andrew Strong
:00:30. > :01:02.from The Commitments. Hello. A well-known writer has
:01:03. > :01:08.caused outrage by comparing the Boys' Brigade two young children
:01:09. > :01:12.taking part in Republican marchers. He has refused to apologise. The
:01:13. > :01:20.Boys' Brigade called it highly offensive and dangerous. We are
:01:21. > :01:32.joined by Jude Collins and Christopher Stalford from the DUP. I
:01:33. > :01:44.saw that at wheat had been re-tweeted which said, shocking
:01:45. > :01:53.images of children at a parade. It had a picture of masked men with the
:01:54. > :02:07.back to the camera. One girl was in a dress. More likely a young man. --
:02:08. > :02:16.battle dress. I thought it was wildly exaggerated. If there were
:02:17. > :02:43.any, there was only one child. So half in jest, I replied. We can all
:02:44. > :02:50.have a look at what you said. That was you comparing them to dissident
:02:51. > :02:57.republicans. I said it was a bit like this. I think it was no more
:02:58. > :03:13.exaggerated dust on the original comment. I said, are there any
:03:14. > :03:19.elements of militarism in the Boys' Brigade. The fact of the matter is
:03:20. > :03:28.that there are. The Boys' Brigade were founded at the end of the 19th
:03:29. > :03:35.century. It was founded by someone who was a soldier. He drilled with
:03:36. > :03:44.his men during the day and then he would take Sunday school. And the
:03:45. > :03:47.boys were bored stiff. He thought he would introduce the same elements of
:03:48. > :03:57.drilling and parading and marching into the Boys' Brigade. And it
:03:58. > :04:02.worked like a dream. The Boys' Brigade is for sport, it is for fun.
:04:03. > :04:13.To draw any type of parallel with Republican marchers. These masked
:04:14. > :04:19.thugs in dissident regalia. You are doing this deliberately. You are
:04:20. > :04:22.misunderstanding my point. I did not see from one moment that the Boys'
:04:23. > :04:33.Brigade was a paramilitary organisation. No, but are you
:04:34. > :04:45.arguing that it could be viewed as such. It is a history we're it draws
:04:46. > :04:52.its success to the fact that William Smith combined Sunday school with
:04:53. > :04:58.militaristic endeavours. You probably hear what the Boys' Brigade
:04:59. > :05:02.answer was to this. This is the statement. You have not apologised.
:05:03. > :05:19.This is what they said. I did not compel them to the masked
:05:20. > :05:27.paramilitaries. I did not say that. The parallel I was drawing was the
:05:28. > :05:34.effect of these paramilitaries on perhaps these young children. It is
:05:35. > :05:42.the effect of paramilitaries. And there are effects of having a
:05:43. > :05:49.structure of the Boys' Brigade which has elements are trappings of
:05:50. > :05:55.militarism. The effect is that the Boys' Brigade is an organisation
:05:56. > :06:03.which if exists for the youth. I was in the Boys' Brigade for 15 years.
:06:04. > :06:10.The people who I encountered, the leaders of it, were the most decent
:06:11. > :06:13.people I have ever encountered. There will be thousands of people
:06:14. > :06:25.whose children are in the Boys' Brigade. I absolutely defend Jude
:06:26. > :06:30.Collins to have the right to see what he said. Many people will be
:06:31. > :06:41.deeply hurt by what he said. The comparison between the Brigade and a
:06:42. > :06:47.bit like this, the words you use,. When we talked on the radio earlier
:06:48. > :06:54.today, you said you were not drawing a direct comparison. I accept that.
:06:55. > :06:59.I think the comparison is so vulgar and so wrong that you should just
:07:00. > :07:09.admit that you got it wrong. You should say sorry. As far back as the
:07:10. > :07:15.1930s, there were people who had severe doubts about the elements of
:07:16. > :07:19.militarism within the Boys' Brigade. The success of the organisation in
:07:20. > :07:27.the first place was William Smith introducing elements of drilling.
:07:28. > :07:37.But we'll know in 2016. Surely it is about kids doing something other
:07:38. > :07:47.than hanging around honesty corner. -- on a street corner. I know many
:07:48. > :07:54.people who have had very helpful and positive memories of the Boys'
:07:55. > :08:04.Brigade. But there is the military in structure. In 2006, the Sunday
:08:05. > :08:11.teams carried a report which said the Boys' Brigade was going to do
:08:12. > :08:19.eight ?215,000 rebranding to rid itself of the image of militarism. I
:08:20. > :08:27.have two C, over the course of this, your attempts to defend what you
:08:28. > :08:31.have said have become more pronounced that you actually no
:08:32. > :08:34.sound even more hostile towards the Boys' Brigade than you originally
:08:35. > :08:44.dead. It is bizarre. It is frankly bizarre. To be resorting to attacks,
:08:45. > :08:49.which I think was slanderous on him as an organisation, which exist
:08:50. > :09:00.forbidden from the benefit of the community. See if the state picked
:09:01. > :09:05.up the tab for the amount of work these people do in the community, it
:09:06. > :09:12.would cost an absolute fortune. Surely people being involved in
:09:13. > :09:19.groups might actually discourage them to get involved in dissident
:09:20. > :09:28.activities? The person with his hand up. The Boys' Brigade was founded on
:09:29. > :09:37.the basis of Christianity -- Christianity. It is an insult to
:09:38. > :09:40.decent law-abiding people what you have said. There is enough trouble
:09:41. > :09:52.in this country without you trying to stir it up. I am not intending to
:09:53. > :09:56.insult anybody. I know many people who have been in the Boys' Brigade
:09:57. > :10:02.and who have enjoyed a completely positive experience. All I am saying
:10:03. > :10:13.is through the deep decades, there is the militaristic element to it.
:10:14. > :10:17.Like many Christian organisations, many of which were founded in the
:10:18. > :10:24.Victorian and Edwardian times, there was an element of Christianity but
:10:25. > :10:36.also a question of militaristic connection. I do not have a moral
:10:37. > :10:42.objection to them. Do you think the Boys' Brigade is to militaristic? I
:10:43. > :10:45.think if it is organised on the basis of militarism, I think it
:10:46. > :10:54.would be better being done otherwise. It exists for good, the
:10:55. > :11:00.organisation. The paramilitary groups exist for bad. But as the
:11:01. > :11:06.marching and staff knocked out of the total date for the current model
:11:07. > :11:15.planes? When I was in the Boys' Brigade, it was more of a uniform,
:11:16. > :11:22.but it is more of the jumper that people we're there were days. For
:11:23. > :11:27.any way for them to become clear that in a really weird was wrong.
:11:28. > :11:36.But why should children be marching about anyway? It was founded on the
:11:37. > :11:45.basis of Christian principle. It was the notion of discipline,
:11:46. > :11:49.self-respect. William Smith was a man who came from a military
:11:50. > :11:56.background and there is no denying that. But to draw comparisons
:11:57. > :12:00.between the Boys' Brigade and organisations that exist for bad, I
:12:01. > :12:09.really think you have got this badly wrong. What would you say to the
:12:10. > :12:13.thousands of people out there who are offended by the comparison that
:12:14. > :12:19.you drew that you are sorry. I am actually worth Jude Collins on this
:12:20. > :12:30.one. The Boys' Brigade is very militaristic. What Tatum did you
:12:31. > :12:36.address the person in charge of your unit? You called the captain. I do
:12:37. > :12:46.not think it is necessarily bad, but I do think it is out of touch there
:12:47. > :12:52.were days. It is effectively a military organisation. I think that
:12:53. > :13:01.is a huge overreaction to this over nothing.
:13:02. > :13:12.That is an interesting response. When usual men in masks and
:13:13. > :13:20.dissidents and see the about like them, well you not put off? It is
:13:21. > :13:25.military. That was the sense he was meaning. Actually, the Boys' Brigade
:13:26. > :13:37.as a paramilitary organisation. For goodness sake! You for real, the
:13:38. > :13:45.Boys' Brigade as a paramilitary organisation? It is not the meaning
:13:46. > :13:51.of the word. It is any organisation that takes on the trappings of the
:13:52. > :14:00.military. Both the Boys' Brigade take on a military standing. I fully
:14:01. > :14:05.support both organisations, but they are military in organisation and
:14:06. > :14:11.that is exactly just what he was seeing. Exactly. She has said that
:14:12. > :14:22.better than I could. Please go ahead. I was a volunteer in both the
:14:23. > :14:30.Boys' Brigade and the Guild Brigade. I think the comparisons are odious.
:14:31. > :14:35.We do drill for about 15 minutes late and the boys really enjoy it.
:14:36. > :14:42.It is all about instilling discipline and respect for the
:14:43. > :14:50.leadership. To compare it to a paramilitary organisation is wrong.
:14:51. > :14:57.What would you say, this is all about your lot throwing a hissy fit.
:14:58. > :15:03.You were the one who invited me on to discuss this.
:15:04. > :15:11.I was glad to come on and discuss this, because I was someone who was
:15:12. > :15:18.a boy in the Boys' Brigade for 15 years, and the experience I had, and
:15:19. > :15:23.the example but was said to us by the people that belonged to my
:15:24. > :15:29.church but basically the people who ran our BB company, decent, upright
:15:30. > :15:33.people who would never harm another human being, and for a comparison to
:15:34. > :15:40.be drawn between an organisation like the Boys' Brigade and -- and an
:15:41. > :15:45.organisation that -- like we saw at that recent event, I think is
:15:46. > :15:52.grossly hurtful. The Boys' Brigade has said this is dangerous. O'Kane?
:15:53. > :15:56.For those people who you have offended, do you think -- do you
:15:57. > :16:04.apologise? I don't think I have anything to apologise for. I suspect
:16:05. > :16:10.two things, one is there are people who if I said the sky was blue, they
:16:11. > :16:19.would say I was a Fenian liar. Secondly... So you think people are
:16:20. > :16:23.out to get you? No, that -- simply that there are people like that.
:16:24. > :16:29.Secondly, I am simply trying to deal with what seems to me to be a fact
:16:30. > :16:34.that this lady indicated. I can see that some people like Christopher
:16:35. > :16:40.perhaps have very happy memories of their boyhood in the Boys' Brigade,
:16:41. > :16:46.and I think some of those are hard because I seem to be trampling on
:16:47. > :16:56.something they treasure as a childhood memory. Did any of your
:16:57. > :17:00.relatives go through the BB? Your nephew or what have you? If you had
:17:01. > :17:04.experience of the organisation you would see what a positive
:17:05. > :17:12.organisation it is, and for you to draw this comparison, I think is
:17:13. > :17:17.deeply offensive. I do not denigrate the BB, I am simply saying it has
:17:18. > :17:22.militaristic elements, and I suspect it has some influence on the young
:17:23. > :17:29.people who go through it. It's only ever been an influence for good. But
:17:30. > :17:34.why would they start spending ?215,000 to rebrand the
:17:35. > :17:39.organisation, if it was... Because youth organisations across the board
:17:40. > :17:44.are declining in numbers. They suspected militarism was keeping
:17:45. > :17:53.them back. Dude, I thank you for coming in. You got a lot of support
:17:54. > :18:00.in this audience. -- chewed. -- Jude Collins. Let's move on, still to
:18:01. > :18:06.come tonight, this gorilla had not attacked this child but he came this
:18:07. > :18:12.close. The zoo shot the gorilla, but did it deserve to die? My next guest
:18:13. > :18:19.was never off our screens as one of the biggest TV presenters in the
:18:20. > :18:22.1990s, but she's been in the headlines recently after her divorce
:18:23. > :18:33.and is here to tell us how she is ready to bounce back, ladies and
:18:34. > :18:42.gentlemen, Anthea Turner. Hello! Get to see you. I thought they were
:18:43. > :18:47.going to start on the Brownies, and then I would be really upset!
:18:48. > :18:58.Sometimes guests say "What is this show?" You are fine. You are used to
:18:59. > :19:05.so much telly over decades. What was really ought, I was walking round
:19:06. > :19:11.the back of the screens here, and something you said, I went, oh my
:19:12. > :19:26.goodness, this June, I have been in television for 30 years. 30 years!
:19:27. > :19:32.Has it been a good ride? I think so, I just get up and do a job or get a
:19:33. > :19:39.bit of work here or there. I don't see it as... I've never seen it as a
:19:40. > :19:46.career actually. Come on! What were you, the second-highest paid start
:19:47. > :19:54.in TV after Cilla Black? That is somebody out to make a career. I
:19:55. > :20:00.don't think I earn that much. We are not on millions? If only I had been.
:20:01. > :20:04.I would have been much better off. No, I remember reading some of these
:20:05. > :20:11.figures that you are supposed to arm and thinking, if only. And
:20:12. > :20:15.especially at GMTV, none of the figures bandied around were true.
:20:16. > :20:21.But the silly thing was it was never in your interests to go "No, I am
:20:22. > :20:27.not earning that at all, you can half it!" When we see -- said GMTV
:20:28. > :20:32.to this Northern Ireland audience they immediately think of probably
:20:33. > :20:38.the most popular presenter that there has ever been in Northern
:20:39. > :20:45.Ireland, Eamon Holmes. Let's have a look at you two together. This is
:20:46. > :20:50.going back quite a few years. The Independent has a lottery
:20:51. > :20:56.special today. You may think this is Anthea's granny, but this is the
:20:57. > :21:05.image of Anthea in the year 2015. 20 years from now, that could be you,
:21:06. > :21:12.Anthea! It will never happen! " Has Anthea combed her hair this morning,
:21:13. > :21:19.it looks a mess!" It is fine now. It is like having a Dulux dog beside
:21:20. > :21:26.you. It all falls back into place. 20 years, something like that?
:21:27. > :21:28.Absolutely. And the stories have all been well rehearsed that
:21:29. > :21:33.behind-the-scenes while all the smiles were going on, you don't like
:21:34. > :21:39.each other... What was it really like? They were widely -- while the
:21:40. > :21:44.exaggerated. He could have been a bit grumpy in the morning, like a
:21:45. > :21:50.lot of men. Do you know, it was so funny because obviously we kissed
:21:51. > :21:57.and made up, here actually, in the studio. And I think like a lot of
:21:58. > :22:03.these things, a lot is written in newspapers, there is a grain of
:22:04. > :22:08.truth that gets exploded... He nicknamed you Princess Tippy toes.
:22:09. > :22:23.Were you deserving of that? I called myself that. To this day, if I text
:22:24. > :22:30.him or he texts me, it is Princess Tippy toes. What did you call him,
:22:31. > :22:40.if it is not vulgar? It was Lorraine who started it, and I picked it up.
:22:41. > :22:45.No, I can't! Now... No. And, there was a little bit of tension at the
:22:46. > :22:49.time, for reasons which Eamon and I know about, between ourselves, and
:22:50. > :22:55.they were a lot to do with things that were going on, more so in
:22:56. > :23:00.Eamon's life at the time. And I was the person he saw every day, and if
:23:01. > :23:06.you are going to take it out on anybody, it is the person you see
:23:07. > :23:11.all the time! But it was wildly exaggerated, and I have the utmost
:23:12. > :23:16.respect for him. This is the peace agreement that happened in Northern
:23:17. > :23:20.Ireland many years later. When you two met up.
:23:21. > :23:23.Earlier today it emerged that Eamon Holmes and Anthea Turner have
:23:24. > :23:28.decided to forget their stormy past and become friends again, whilst
:23:29. > :23:39.signing up to what will be known as the Good Friday show agreement.
:23:40. > :23:48.Oh, look! It is a roller-coaster, this industry, though. It is just a
:23:49. > :23:52.gossip mongering industry, and I have been around for a long time so
:23:53. > :24:00.some of it hurts and some of it doesn't. Some of it you just brush
:24:01. > :24:07.off, and that is what it is. But it does hurt, I think. If you are a
:24:08. > :24:11.thin skinned, normal person, it does hurt. And your life is so public
:24:12. > :24:17.then that for example when you get divorced it is all over the
:24:18. > :24:24.papers... Yes, but the deal is it is a double edged sword, you cannot use
:24:25. > :24:28.the media if you are promoting a television show, or some fitness
:24:29. > :24:34.video or whatever, and then when something goes wrong, shut it out.
:24:35. > :24:37.You have to roll with it. It is not pleasant, and I think if anybody
:24:38. > :24:42.ever looked into a crystal ball and said this is what your life is going
:24:43. > :24:46.to be, you would go and do another job. But it becomes what you do, and
:24:47. > :25:01.you accept it, and it is part of it, that's it. How hurtful was
:25:02. > :25:06.Flakegate? How many people do their weddings with a magazine? But never
:25:07. > :25:10.ever was there any deal at all with Cadbury 's chocolate. In fact the
:25:11. > :25:14.proprietor of the magazine has a book out at the moment, his
:25:15. > :25:21.autobiography, and he has put that right. That was about 12 o'clock at
:25:22. > :25:28.night, and somebody came up and said: we have a picture taken with
:25:29. > :25:33.one of these? How destructive was that for your career? Absolutely
:25:34. > :25:39.terrible, because it made me out," oh, God, you sold your wedding for a
:25:40. > :25:44.chocolate bar?" No, it was just a normal deal with a magazine for some
:25:45. > :25:49.wedding pictures. When you think of something like that, do you think,
:25:50. > :25:53.what if that hadn't happened, where would I be? It was destructive, but
:25:54. > :25:59.not that destructive because I have worked since, and I think probably
:26:00. > :26:03.the most difficult thing for my career, and it doesn't matter what
:26:04. > :26:09.the rights and wrongs at or whatever, what I know to be true is
:26:10. > :26:15.the fact that I through quite... Grant and I got together, he has
:26:16. > :26:21.three children and I went from being miss Blue Peter, to all of a sudden
:26:22. > :26:26.the Antichrist. And I hold my hands up, that caused a lot of problems
:26:27. > :26:36.for me. What about the psychological pressure? Well, I'm in, no, it was
:26:37. > :26:41.absolutely awful, but cut forward to now, obviously Grant and I are
:26:42. > :26:48.divorced, but I have, you know, we have maintained a family life, 16
:26:49. > :26:54.years, the girls are as much in my life as they ever have been on a
:26:55. > :27:01.daily basis. The little one, let's say little, she is 19... She is
:27:02. > :27:06.there with me all the time, and the other two are in and out of my life
:27:07. > :27:11.constantly, on a daily basis. I am keen to get the real deal from you
:27:12. > :27:15.about some of the stuff I have read. Some of the stuff I have read
:27:16. > :27:20.recently is you used to live in a ?10 million mansion and now you live
:27:21. > :27:32.in a flat. That our flats and flats and flats. -- there are flats... No,
:27:33. > :27:37.my husband was bankrupt so that property was sold, and I now have a
:27:38. > :27:42.very nice flat in a lovely area called Richmond in Surrey, and I am
:27:43. > :27:48.very happy there. I have a completely different life, it is
:27:49. > :27:58.different. So all the big-money's gone? Well, most of it was owned by
:27:59. > :28:05.the bank in any case! Do you miss it? No, that whole downsizing, did I
:28:06. > :28:10.even want it in the first place? No, it was somebody else's life, who are
:28:11. > :28:16.married, and I went along with stuff. But it was never really my
:28:17. > :28:21.life. And I actually have my life back now the way I live my life. It
:28:22. > :28:35.is much smaller and more accessible and easier.
:28:36. > :28:48.And you have written any self-help book on divorce? Yes, it is trying
:28:49. > :28:56.to kill people, if you do go round this road, there are certain things
:28:57. > :29:12.which can help you deal with that. -- go down. There is no way back
:29:13. > :29:17.from anger. When people get divorced, it is about two people and
:29:18. > :29:26.we are ready by a sphere of life. There may be children involved. They
:29:27. > :29:34.are involved and you have to protect them. You have to protect all of the
:29:35. > :29:43.people, your friends, your family and keep it all together somehow. It
:29:44. > :29:54.is difficult, but it can be done. We are nearly out of time. I wanted
:29:55. > :30:09.to ask you about fitness. The audience here see me as being a
:30:10. > :30:18.rather something of a model for how to look after yourself. I can see
:30:19. > :30:34.that! And I know more about you than you think. I have the crazy diet.
:30:35. > :30:40.What is it. I am 40 days into it. I thought I would maybe break my diet
:30:41. > :30:53.for me -- for you. I do not want you to do that. I know we had the
:30:54. > :31:08.situation all these years ago. Come over and get a picture of this. If
:31:09. > :31:12.you and I do this, it means you have got to marry me. That may be a
:31:13. > :31:23.bigger story than you realise. Thank you for being such a good
:31:24. > :32:02.sport. Thank you. we are going to take a look at this
:32:03. > :32:04.dramatic footage. This is when a three-year-old boy get into the
:32:05. > :32:31.gorilla enclosure at Cincinnati zoo. No, that happened last weekend. To
:32:32. > :32:38.rescue the child, the short the gorilla bed. The gorilla was cold
:32:39. > :32:44.Harambe. Animal rights activists have been up in arms, but those who
:32:45. > :32:55.have defended what the dead. We are joined by the animal rights activist
:32:56. > :33:05.John Carmody and Matt Walsh. What should have happened to it? When it
:33:06. > :33:13.is a human shield versus E Carella, there is no discussion. You kill the
:33:14. > :33:19.gorilla to save the child. You cannot preserve both lives. You
:33:20. > :33:23.preserve the human life. I do not clear how many gorillas you have to
:33:24. > :33:30.kill, you preserve the human life. It is an inherent truth. You do not
:33:31. > :33:38.give a dam about the gorilla? Once we start stacking the gorilla
:33:39. > :33:43.against the Child, there is nowhere to go. When I watched the video, I
:33:44. > :33:55.was terrified. Imagine thinking that was my child. My overriding feeling
:33:56. > :34:03.was relief when really aren't that the Child had only minor injuries.
:34:04. > :34:08.As a secondary concern, we don't know us, it was that it was too bad
:34:09. > :34:15.about the gorilla. There was no decision to make here. This could
:34:16. > :34:21.have been completely preventable. What I would say is that I do not
:34:22. > :34:28.want to see who was to blame or for its life was more important. Surely
:34:29. > :34:36.that is the story. We should be asking ourselves that in this day
:34:37. > :34:39.and age, should be be incarcerating these magnificent creatures from the
:34:40. > :34:47.wild and keeping it in a concrete prison. If anything, people should
:34:48. > :34:56.be worried about the fact that they are incarcerated. Was the Zune rate
:34:57. > :35:01.to shoot the gorilla. I think, in the situation, the dead have little
:35:02. > :35:07.choice. But I think we have to look at this in the future. I think they
:35:08. > :35:23.should be reducing the bleeding programmes and getting rid of zoos
:35:24. > :35:27.going for work. The reports are that the gorilla had ten times the
:35:28. > :35:35.strength of the normal human, it could have ripped the children to
:35:36. > :35:46.bits. I do not think I there should really be any animal rights issue
:35:47. > :35:58.about this. By definition, the zoo is meant to protect the animals. It
:35:59. > :36:07.was no fault of the gorilla. Her point is that zoo the is the to
:36:08. > :36:14.protect animals, not to kill them. It is easy to see that they should
:36:15. > :36:19.not exist. But they do preserve a lot of these species. But in the
:36:20. > :36:24.real occasion when something like this happens, they have to respond
:36:25. > :36:31.to it. Of course it is not the gorilla 's fault. But does that mean
:36:32. > :36:43.that you would you actually take a chance with a Child of the life. It
:36:44. > :36:50.was not me who took their chance. The appearance for not supervising
:36:51. > :36:55.them. So, you are seeing let the child died because the appearance
:36:56. > :37:05.let the men there. I think that is not only a wrong position, but it is
:37:06. > :37:16.deeply than wicked. I agree that the safety of the Child is paramount.
:37:17. > :37:29.You have gone beyond this. You have said you could kill a million
:37:30. > :37:41.guerrillas rather than take human lives. In RSI that situation is not
:37:42. > :37:45.going to occur. The principle is that human life is infinitely more
:37:46. > :37:55.valuable. Animal lives are always subjugated under human lives. Could
:37:56. > :38:06.I explained, I was trying to say you were being clever, just for the red.
:38:07. > :38:17.I think the onus is with the parents. If I was at a zoo and had
:38:18. > :38:22.any children with me, I would keep them well back. Is that not very
:38:23. > :38:25.easy to see in retrospect. Peel and sometimes can take the eye of the
:38:26. > :38:35.Child for a few seconds, which is what happened here. That was a
:38:36. > :38:40.beautiful creature. There is footage of the gorilla holding hands with
:38:41. > :38:47.the boy. Is it possible that the gorilla was trying to protect the
:38:48. > :38:57.child? People were pending the blame on the gorilla. But we believe that
:38:58. > :39:05.the gorilla was trying to protect the child. In the way you want,
:39:06. > :39:17.guerrillas are a very timid creature. Come on, we have seen
:39:18. > :39:27.Disney movies. Are they going to break out into a musical number? We
:39:28. > :39:33.saw the gorilla tracking the Child by his leg through the water. The
:39:34. > :39:47.child could offset its head in the concrete and drowned. We can have a
:39:48. > :39:54.look at all of this. Initially, this is what he would probably do with
:39:55. > :40:04.his own young. He looks rather confused by what is going on. He is
:40:05. > :40:16.clearly perturbed by what is going on. We need to do things in
:40:17. > :40:22.perspective. We have to talk about zoos and the purported conservation
:40:23. > :40:27.schemes. We keep getting told we do not know what we are talking about
:40:28. > :40:36.with regard to animals zoos and. They are often in the centre of very
:40:37. > :40:44.busy cities. They are not really part of true conservation. The zoo
:40:45. > :40:51.inner London spent more than ?5 million on in enclosure with only
:40:52. > :41:00.three animals in it. This is all about what zoos really are. I think
:41:01. > :41:15.it is time we question the validity of such establishments. Witness
:41:16. > :41:25.reports say the Child was asked to go in to the enclosure with the
:41:26. > :41:33.gorilla. If I had the theoretical Child who wanted to go in the. You
:41:34. > :41:41.have gone far not been a great parenting or even being a parent at
:41:42. > :41:53.all. If the child had asked me to go into the enclosure, I think I may
:41:54. > :41:58.have my eye on my Child. Does that make sense? We will soon find out
:41:59. > :42:06.when you are a Fowler. There is a serious issue. The idea that gorilla
:42:07. > :42:12.should not be in captivity and the first place. This really as a
:42:13. > :42:22.separate issue. I disagree. I think they preserve the species. As the
:42:23. > :42:31.more superior creatures in the air, I think we have a noble purpose and
:42:32. > :42:37.preserving these animals. The bigger issue is that there are people in
:42:38. > :42:45.the world who clearly care more for animal life than human life. That is
:42:46. > :42:49.why animal rights activists in to be more worried about the animals in
:42:50. > :42:55.captivity than human beings suffering and been killed all across
:42:56. > :42:57.the call. When the sort of thing happens we know it has to debate
:42:58. > :43:11.that the gorilla should have been saved in place of the infant. Surely
:43:12. > :43:19.there is no debate. This idea that we care more for animals and humans.
:43:20. > :43:24.It is indicative of this idea that we keep animals captive for our own
:43:25. > :43:34.entertainment. To conserve the species and activity is -- captivity
:43:35. > :43:41.is wrong. Everything here could've avoided. People blame the parents,
:43:42. > :43:48.people blame the gorilla. If the boy had fallen and died, the zoo would
:43:49. > :43:59.of been held responsible. I think it was sad that the gorilla
:44:00. > :44:06.had to be killed, but the zoo's priority had to be the child's
:44:07. > :44:10.safety. Where were the parents? I think they hold full responsibility
:44:11. > :44:21.for this sad incidents. But none of us were there.
:44:22. > :44:26.Zoos should never have to see this happen. Zoos should look at the
:44:27. > :44:31.enclosures. Ten seconds... This could be easily
:44:32. > :44:37.settled if we could understand the true language of gorillas. We would
:44:38. > :44:39.hang our heads in shame that we have incarcerated these magnificent
:44:40. > :44:45.creatures in glass and concrete enclosures. Where are you in
:44:46. > :44:48.America? I am in Washington, DC. Thank you
:44:49. > :45:00.for joining us. Give our guests a round of applause.
:45:01. > :45:10.Just a quick reminder that there is still time to apply for tickets for
:45:11. > :45:20.next week's show. Go on the BBC website. And the radio show is on
:45:21. > :45:30.Friday from 9p until half past ten. -- from nine o'clock till 1030. Lets
:45:31. > :45:38.see who's online one. They have to uphold our laws. I am incensed by
:45:39. > :45:42.what you have said. The biggest show in the country. A
:45:43. > :45:46.report for the International Monetary Fund has said the
:45:47. > :45:49.Government's cutting down on spending can do the economy more
:45:50. > :45:58.harm than good. The Chancellor says we need to type type -- Titan arbour
:45:59. > :46:04.-- belts. We keep on hearing about cuts. Are they necessary?
:46:05. > :46:09.Absolutely, because what is happening... Not according to the
:46:10. > :46:14.IMF report. They are an elite we don't have to worry about. I am a
:46:15. > :46:19.businessman who was a member of the Tory party. What we have at the
:46:20. > :46:26.moment is last month the debts in the United Kingdom got to ?1.6
:46:27. > :46:30.trillion. Which is 1 million million. To put that in context for
:46:31. > :46:34.your audience tonight, everybody in this audience tonight is ?100,000 in
:46:35. > :46:43.debt, because of Government borrowing. We are paying out. My
:46:44. > :46:49.mortgage is bigger than that! Yes, but you can afford it, Stephen. Your
:46:50. > :46:58.Government put us in ?100,000 of debt. It is not my Government. It is
:46:59. > :47:01.your party. We are in debt today because the banks collapsed, we had
:47:02. > :47:07.to bail them out and we are now paying the price for it. So we got
:47:08. > :47:13.hit twice, we had to bail out the banks, and secondly we lost
:47:14. > :47:19.services. We cannot go back year -- years and years blaming the banks.
:47:20. > :47:25.The day after we stop paying for the banks, we can stop blaming them. The
:47:26. > :47:29.IMF are four was absolutely right. There is a massive problem of
:47:30. > :47:33.underinvestment in the economy... We should say to the people who are
:47:34. > :47:39.hiding their money in Panama, start paying your way in the economy. Come
:47:40. > :47:45.into the real world. We cannot afford to continually increased...
:47:46. > :47:49.We are going to get to a ?2 trillion debt. What about the people who do
:47:50. > :47:58.not pay their taxes? Make them pay their taxes. They are also ?100,000
:47:59. > :48:05.in debt. Because of your Government. I wish you would stop saying that.
:48:06. > :48:07.This man here, go ahead. If austerity actually works, then why
:48:08. > :48:13.for the last five years as the national debt doubled from ?800
:48:14. > :48:18.billion to ?1.7 trillion? We have been doing austerity for five years,
:48:19. > :48:25.and it has doubled. George Osborne brought in austerity five years ago.
:48:26. > :48:27.There are people sitting... There are disabled people sitting in
:48:28. > :48:38.nappies because they have dug deep to care for them for the last three
:48:39. > :48:42.or four macro years. In the last six years the debt has gone up by ?600
:48:43. > :48:52.billion, so we have borrowed ?600 billion... Figures are important,
:48:53. > :48:57.but that man has nailed it. Disabled people are feeling austerity in this
:48:58. > :49:05.country. You are saying it has not happened? Get into the real world!
:49:06. > :49:10.We are paying 120 -- 100 ?20 million every day in interest on those
:49:11. > :49:15.borrowings. We have not borrowed money to pay for public services or
:49:16. > :49:18.to help the disabled or to help people in our communities. We have
:49:19. > :49:24.borrowed money to bail out banks and to bail out failing businesses. That
:49:25. > :49:32.was the Labour Government... That's over the last six years. The United
:49:33. > :49:37.States has not done austerity, in the last five years they spent money
:49:38. > :49:40.on infrastructure etc, and its economy is growing. Our economy is
:49:41. > :49:50.absolutely stagnating. We need to change something. Go ahead, front
:49:51. > :49:54.row. Is it not morally repulsive to chase a political goal when you are
:49:55. > :49:59.dealing with real people's lives? Everybody here's in debt, we all
:50:00. > :50:06.have a moral obligation to the most vulnerable. Have you felt the cuts,
:50:07. > :50:11.or people around you felt it? More so people around me, and members of
:50:12. > :50:16.my family, they depend on housing benefit and things like that. It is
:50:17. > :50:22.not fair on them when they don't have that much control over their
:50:23. > :50:26.own lives. How do you respond to that? We cannot continue to borrow,
:50:27. > :50:32.you cannot borrow your way out of debt. We have to get it down, we
:50:33. > :50:36.have to start -- stop paying ?120 million per day. You can argue for
:50:37. > :50:40.more taxes, but we can't keep spending money we are not earning.
:50:41. > :50:44.You know what it is like with your budget every month, you have income
:50:45. > :50:48.and expenditure, if you continually spend more than you earn, sooner or
:50:49. > :50:52.later your bank will call you in and say you are getting no more. That is
:50:53. > :51:01.what is going to happen sooner or later. Showed Stormont challenge
:51:02. > :51:09.Aust -- austerity, this new Government? They are cooperating
:51:10. > :51:11.with austerity, they are implementing David Cameron's
:51:12. > :51:20.programme. They should be standing up for the people of Northern
:51:21. > :51:25.Ireland. Actually I heard myself... The fresh start agreement is an
:51:26. > :51:28.austerity agreement, and the Northern Ireland Assembly intends to
:51:29. > :51:37.implement 20,000 private -- public service job cuts. I work in
:51:38. > :51:42.education... Up to 20,000. Secondly, we have a new Finance Minister, who
:51:43. > :51:52.has said he is going to push back against austerity and he has said in
:51:53. > :51:58.fact he wants to borrow more... If politicians would cut the money they
:51:59. > :52:04.spend on segregation in this country... The expenditure is there.
:52:05. > :52:08.Teachers are being laid off. We in the union movement are fighting to
:52:09. > :52:13.keep mental health services open. Our members are striking on Friday
:52:14. > :52:19.to try to protect local services in towns across Northern Ireland.
:52:20. > :52:25.Strikes don't help. They send a message to politicians and the
:52:26. > :52:33.electoral officers, jobs are disappearing. Stormont has to live
:52:34. > :52:39.the budget it has. Absolutely. It is time they learn to live within it. I
:52:40. > :52:45.for one, and I don't know about this audience, but spending ?1 billion a
:52:46. > :52:51.year on segregation, keeping you good people apart, that money could
:52:52. > :53:04.be spent on many, many things. Are you saying keeping people in work is
:53:05. > :53:10.crazy? No, keeping people apart. They haven't even tried to start.
:53:11. > :53:16.How would you... How would you repair the divisions in this
:53:17. > :53:21.country? Knock down the peace walls of the night? No, but if you take
:53:22. > :53:26.the time I come from, Ballymena has one leisure centre. If we have the
:53:27. > :53:29.same number of leisure centres as in Belfast we would have sex. There are
:53:30. > :53:35.far too many leisure centres in Belfast, all because of segregation.
:53:36. > :53:43.-- we would have six leisure centres. Segregation and
:53:44. > :53:51.sectarianism is not about making more cuts. That does not help the
:53:52. > :53:56.problem. When you start by saying maybe we have too many leisure
:53:57. > :54:00.centres, do we have too many GPs, hospitals? We do not. We need an
:54:01. > :54:10.economy that is creating jobs, and you would undermine sectarianism...
:54:11. > :54:15.Do you think people are feeling cuts in this country? No, the standard of
:54:16. > :54:19.living in this country... Is anybody in this audience feeling the cuts?
:54:20. > :54:29.Young lady here. Front row, go ahead. Even people here are feeling
:54:30. > :54:34.the cuts. We are just scraping by, scrimping and saving just to pay the
:54:35. > :54:45.rent and have food for the week. You are living on cloud nine, made! --
:54:46. > :54:52.mate. Is she said you are living on cloud nine, mate. The cloud I am
:54:53. > :54:57.living on is one where we are spending money we do not have. But
:54:58. > :55:06.you said people are not feeling the cuts! There are special cases... It
:55:07. > :55:14.is not just -- special cases, it is millions of people in this country!
:55:15. > :55:23.There is only a possibility of 1.7 million. People have seen their
:55:24. > :55:28.health service attack, the education service attack. But you cannot
:55:29. > :55:33.continue borrowing money. We are out of time, give our guests a round of
:55:34. > :55:38.applause, thank you. Right, now, before we go tonight we have a
:55:39. > :55:41.special musical treat. This year marks the 21st anniversary of the
:55:42. > :55:49.hit movie the commitments, and we have a singing star. He is here
:55:50. > :55:50.tonight with a classic song, Mustang Sally, let's hear
:55:51. > :56:12.# Guess you better slow your Mustang down
:56:13. > :56:29.# Guess you better slow that Mustang down
:56:30. > :56:33.# You been runnin' all over the town
:56:34. > :56:49.# I guess you got to put your flat feet on the ground
:56:50. > :56:51.# All you wanna do is ride around, Sally
:56:52. > :56:57.# All you wanna do is ride around, Sally
:56:58. > :57:05.# All you wanna do is ride around, Sally
:57:06. > :57:13.# All you wanna do is ride around, Sally
:57:14. > :57:35.# I'm gonna be wipin' those weepin' eyes
:57:36. > :57:46.# I bought you a brand-new Mustang, it was a natural '65
:57:47. > :57:48.# I bought you a brand-new Mustang, it was a 1965
:57:49. > :57:50.# Now you comin' round signifyin' a woman
:57:51. > :57:52.# Girl you won't, you won't let me ride
:57:53. > :58:03.# Guess you better slow that Mustang down
:58:04. > :58:09.# You been a runnin' all over the town
:58:10. > :58:22.# Oh, I guess you got to put your flat feet on the ground
:58:23. > :58:25.# All you wanna do is ride around, Sally
:58:26. > :58:33.# All you wanna do is ride around, Sally
:58:34. > :58:41.# All you wanna do is ride around, Sally
:58:42. > :58:49.# All you wanna do is ride around, Sally
:58:50. > :59:12.# I'm gonna be wipin' those weepin' eyes
:59:13. > :59:24.That's what I've got to do now, girl... Those weeping hours... Oh,
:59:25. > :00:02.baby! The build-up to the Euro 2016
:00:03. > :00:07.finals continues.