:00:00. > :00:00.The gay cake row in the courts again as Ashers lose their appeal.
:00:07. > :00:07.But is it an affront to religious freedom,
:00:08. > :00:12.We're also talking waiting lists and the health service.
:00:13. > :00:16.The minister has an action plan, but will it deliver for you?
:00:17. > :00:18.And there's music from Tony Christie as well.
:00:19. > :00:50.Live from the BBC, get ready for the big show!
:00:51. > :00:54.The Christian owners of Ashers bakery refused to make a cake
:00:55. > :00:58.because of the slogan 'Support Gay Marriage'.
:00:59. > :01:03.They were taken to court and a judge ruled that it discriminated
:01:04. > :01:06.On Monday they lost their appeal against that decision.
:01:07. > :01:16.Let's see what was said from both sides after the verdict.
:01:17. > :01:25.The three judges made a decision that said the judge made the correct
:01:26. > :01:28.judge and -- judgment that when Gareth ordered the cake he was
:01:29. > :01:33.discriminated against. We are extremely disappointed with the
:01:34. > :01:37.ruling. If equality law means people can be punished politely refusing to
:01:38. > :01:42.other people's causes then it needs to change. It undermines democratic,
:01:43. > :01:44.religious freedom and free speech. Joining me is Naomi Long, who just
:01:45. > :01:47.a couple of hours ago was elected as the new Alliance Party leader,
:01:48. > :01:49.DUP MP Gregory Campbell, And from our Foyle studio,
:01:50. > :02:05.SDLP MLA Mark H Durkan. Set this out for us, Gregory. We
:02:06. > :02:10.have to respect the court's decision and the judge's view. A lot of
:02:11. > :02:16.controversy though. Yes, and I think for many people Monday was a sad
:02:17. > :02:19.day. One comforting factor I would take from it has been the
:02:20. > :02:26.consequences of Tuesday and today. If you look at the leader writers
:02:27. > :02:30.and commentators, people who start of their contributions by saying if
:02:31. > :02:36.this was a same-sex marriage row I would be in the opposite corner to
:02:37. > :02:39.the bakery, but I firmly reject and resent them being forced to do
:02:40. > :02:45.something they do not want to do. That appears to be a theme running
:02:46. > :02:52.across society and that is good. At the very heart of this, essentially
:02:53. > :02:56.what the judge said, he said, look, if you were to put a football team
:02:57. > :03:01.on a cake as a baker it doesn't mean that you support them. If it is
:03:02. > :03:05.Halloween and you put a witch on a cake, you don't believe in
:03:06. > :03:11.witchcraft. It was unfortunate the use of those arguments. Does anyone
:03:12. > :03:22.seriously make that vacation can be made between what happened in Ashers
:03:23. > :03:25.and a baker who is a Liverpool supporter being asked for a
:03:26. > :03:31.Manchester United kick? It is completely different. The judge is
:03:32. > :03:36.saying that because you do something as a business doesn't mean you
:03:37. > :03:42.believe in it. The fact you are here doesn't mean you believe in the BBC.
:03:43. > :03:46.The religious and moral lifestyle people adapt to whatever their
:03:47. > :03:52.religion is something that is life changing, nothing to do with
:03:53. > :03:55.football. And the stuff about witchcraft, people celebrate and
:03:56. > :04:00.will be dressing up as all sorts of things this weekend for Halloween.
:04:01. > :04:06.To say that is life changing in the same way as a religious and moral
:04:07. > :04:09.outlook and someone wanting to force you to do something against your
:04:10. > :04:17.will and against your conscience and freedom of religion, there is no
:04:18. > :04:21.analogy like that at all. First of all, the judges upheld the fact that
:04:22. > :04:28.you are entitled as an individual to protection of your own beliefs. They
:04:29. > :04:32.said you cannot be forced to do anything as a business but they said
:04:33. > :04:36.you cannot offer a service to one group of people in a certain way and
:04:37. > :04:41.then decide because you don't agree with something somebody wants, if
:04:42. > :04:47.you are a printer or a baker, you cannot say you will do this book
:04:48. > :04:51.takes at not ones you don't agree with the opinion. If you don't want
:04:52. > :04:56.to have to put political or religious messages you do not like
:04:57. > :05:02.on cakes then do not offer that as a service. But you cannot say you will
:05:03. > :05:09.print some religious messages you agree with but not ones you do not
:05:10. > :05:18.agree with. Why not? We have the freedom to say we don't agree. If
:05:19. > :05:23.someone wants to the door to ask for a service they should be treated
:05:24. > :05:26.like anyone else. It is not a dispute of opinion, it is about our
:05:27. > :05:33.business providing a service. We know in Northern Ireland how easy it
:05:34. > :05:38.is for opinions to be shut down if they're not the majority and is not
:05:39. > :05:43.healthy. The court decisions were not easy or simple but they're not
:05:44. > :05:52.talking about forcing people to do things. Yes, you are. They will be
:05:53. > :05:56.forcing them to have a policy which treats every request the same way.
:05:57. > :06:02.Force them to do what they don't want to. No. Somebody goes up on the
:06:03. > :06:38.Schenkel Road -- Shankill Road and says print a cake
:06:39. > :06:47.with "Up to provos"? There are laws against that. All hassle it has
:06:48. > :06:59.cost, is it really worth it, going to court? Is it? That has a point I
:07:00. > :07:07.wanted to raise. Does the Equality Commission and should they, have a
:07:08. > :07:17.mediation role? We are talking about the ethical issue here. If whenever
:07:18. > :07:21.someone comes into a commercial premises and there is a dispute
:07:22. > :07:28.about who should supply what, someone has asked for something and
:07:29. > :07:35.they do not get it, if they go to the Equality Commission and they say
:07:36. > :07:42.they have written to the supplier and they have not done what they
:07:43. > :07:45.wanted so they have gone to court. What is the problem for providing
:07:46. > :07:52.what it is that you want and is there a way round that? Why have
:07:53. > :07:57.they not asked for that power? If that emerges over the course of the
:07:58. > :08:02.next six or 12 months, will be be prepared to say they will mediate?
:08:03. > :08:06.First of all, the Equality Commission have a duty under law as
:08:07. > :08:12.the law stands. If someone comes with a complaint then they have to
:08:13. > :08:17.investigate. They have to write to Everest complained against. I don't
:08:18. > :08:21.think this is a debate about what the Equality Commission should or
:08:22. > :08:32.should not be doing. It is about a business person in this country
:08:33. > :08:36.being forced. I agree that a non-litigated solution would be
:08:37. > :08:40.better. If there was opportunity to negotiate an outcome everyone was
:08:41. > :08:43.happy with that would be preferable but that is not something the
:08:44. > :08:57.Equality Commission can do. But they offered not to go to court. They
:08:58. > :09:01.offered advice. I've got friends in England who cannot believe that this
:09:02. > :09:08.has actually reached international news. The story about the icing on a
:09:09. > :09:19.cake has gone to court and has been appealed. ?200,000 the cost. Because
:09:20. > :09:24.of the gay marriage issue in Northern Ireland issue, it has
:09:25. > :09:31.brought it up even more. It makes Northern Ireland look like it's in
:09:32. > :09:35.the dark ages. It cake! It is much more than a cake. It is about being
:09:36. > :09:43.forced to do something against your will. It is not. It is. It is being
:09:44. > :09:52.forced to have a policy that treats everyone the same. You can refuse to
:09:53. > :09:56.put political messages on cakes. What is wrong with someone saying
:09:57. > :10:02.sorry I am a Christian and I did not believe in gay marriage? There isn't
:10:03. > :10:09.anything wrong with that. Therefore I am not helping to promote that
:10:10. > :10:14.message. What is wrong? There is nothing wrong with someone having
:10:15. > :10:19.that view, a person has a right to opinion and free speech but when you
:10:20. > :10:23.run a business you have additional duties, duties of care to your staff
:10:24. > :10:26.and boys and you work within a legislative framework and one of the
:10:27. > :10:30.things is that you treat all customers the same so you have to
:10:31. > :10:33.have a policy that treats everyone that comes through your door of the
:10:34. > :10:40.same way and what happens if you have an unpopular opinion but it is
:10:41. > :10:46.not illegal or offence of, just not popular, and suddenly we have a lot
:10:47. > :10:57.of people saying they will not print their material? They no longer have
:10:58. > :11:03.freedom of speech. The point is that a bakery whose owners are Christians
:11:04. > :11:08.feel they were pressurised by the Equality Commission, not offered any
:11:09. > :11:14.mediation, offered no way out, all they were offered was... They want
:11:15. > :11:24.an admission of guilt, the Equality Commission. And the courts agreed.
:11:25. > :11:28.The courts can be wrong as well. We have a right to disagree with them.
:11:29. > :11:32.When the Equality Commission took the case, I think it was justified
:11:33. > :11:39.by the fact that the law court and the appeals court upheld the view.
:11:40. > :11:44.Why hasn't been that since Monday people who were on the other side of
:11:45. > :11:51.the argument queueing up to say they think this bakery company has been
:11:52. > :12:00.wronged. I want to know what happens now if someone else goes in for a
:12:01. > :12:06.gay marriage cake and they refuse? They decided they are going to stop
:12:07. > :12:15.providing the cake printing service and Apple just be doing birthday
:12:16. > :12:18.cakes. ?200,000, there is kids going without and all the money is wasted
:12:19. > :12:39.over a cake and I don't understand it. Do you think someone on whatever
:12:40. > :12:45.road it is on a loyalist community who objects to what Sinn Fein stand
:12:46. > :12:51.for in should they be forced to bake a cake which says happy birthday,
:12:52. > :12:59.Sinn Fein? They shouldn't be. For the same reason that Ashers
:13:00. > :13:07.shouldn't be forced to do what they were asked to. There are vocal LGBT
:13:08. > :13:13.activists out there. If there was a bakery owned by an LGBT activist and
:13:14. > :13:21.the question came in and demanded a cake saying we oppose same-sex
:13:22. > :13:26.marriage, if LGBT owner came to me and said they object, I would back
:13:27. > :13:27.them because they were forced to do something they fundamentally agree
:13:28. > :13:38.-- disagree with. Ashers has spent the last two and a
:13:39. > :13:41.half years they don't support equal marriage and they have every right
:13:42. > :13:45.to spend the next 20 years they don't support equal marriage but
:13:46. > :13:49.it's when they refuse to provide a service because of their political
:13:50. > :13:53.opinion. The fundamental thing that we need to consider here is the idea
:13:54. > :13:58.that a printer printing something means that they are supporting or
:13:59. > :14:00.promoting a particular message. You should speak to printers across
:14:01. > :14:05.Northern Ireland to see if they agree with that because that is a
:14:06. > :14:09.dangerous precedent to set in law. Printing something is not promoting
:14:10. > :14:12.it. It's dangerous to say that they are therefore responsible and they
:14:13. > :14:21.have promoted that particular message. The analogy I just
:14:22. > :14:24.betrayed, if there was an LGBT owner of the Beagrie Andy Kristian came in
:14:25. > :14:29.and asked predicate to be iced in the way that I've outlined, what
:14:30. > :14:32.would you stand speakers mac if they provide a service without any
:14:33. > :14:40.restrictions on what they are printing... Would you support the
:14:41. > :14:44.right of that person not to proceed in the same way as I supported
:14:45. > :14:50.Ashers? If they have to provide the service, they have to provide the
:14:51. > :14:53.service. What the least being consistent. You're denying rights to
:14:54. > :15:00.everybody then. It's the right of free speech. We all have a right to
:15:01. > :15:08.free speech. We have made their position clear on equal marriage, no
:15:09. > :15:13.one has stop them. You picked a scenario to me. Let me put a
:15:14. > :15:16.scenario to you. If the people who provide the service to Ashers, we
:15:17. > :15:20.are not going to provide you any more service because of your
:15:21. > :15:25.position on equal marriage, would that be very? Because it's exactly
:15:26. > :15:29.the same. They aren't being asked to provide a service. You're providing
:15:30. > :15:32.and delivering the product. If they said based on your political
:15:33. > :15:38.opinion, we are not going to provide you with that because we are not
:15:39. > :15:43.letting you continue opposition to equal marriage. If they were
:15:44. > :15:47.supplying flour to Ashers, that would be to beat a plethora of
:15:48. > :15:53.things. You're not going to individually separating the might.
:15:54. > :15:56.If they said we will not provide you service because of a political
:15:57. > :16:04.opinion, would that be lawful? It's not the same analogy at all. It is
:16:05. > :16:09.up slightly disclaimer. It's as bad as the football analogy. You dismiss
:16:10. > :16:13.those analogies. It's because they're ludicrous. Reay a lot of
:16:14. > :16:17.questions with the dressing up in schools at Halloween is contrary to
:16:18. > :16:30.their beliefs. That is not a trivial issue, Gregory. They're obsessed
:16:31. > :16:35.with people dressing up as nurses. You need to get out a lot more at
:16:36. > :16:39.the end of October and sees what goes on at Halloween. The dress up
:16:40. > :16:46.as anything and everything. What do you dress up as a Halloween? Am not
:16:47. > :16:52.going to tell you. And you know why? It's my right not to tell you. Free
:16:53. > :16:57.speech. When Ashers I is a cake and says happy birthday somebody. I be
:16:58. > :17:06.thinking that experience sentiment? The are providing a service which
:17:07. > :17:09.they are not endorsing. Peter is a prominent gay rights campaigner and
:17:10. > :17:16.you are on the side of Ashers on this case. I totally disagree with
:17:17. > :17:22.Ashers stands against equal marriage. And saddens the support
:17:23. > :17:28.discrimination against the LGBT community in Northern Ireland. That
:17:29. > :17:32.is not a Christian value at all. They are entitled to their
:17:33. > :17:39.interpretation of their religious belief which is that gay marriage is
:17:40. > :17:45.wrong. Having said that, I do defend their right to hold that view and my
:17:46. > :17:52.concern in this case is that although I have great sympathy with
:17:53. > :17:59.the position outlined by LGBT organisations, I think on balance,
:18:00. > :18:03.it is important to be on the side of freedom of conscience and
:18:04. > :18:07.expression. This particular case, Ashers did not disconnect against
:18:08. > :18:12.Gareth Lee because he was gay, they discriminated against the message he
:18:13. > :18:15.wanted on the cake. In my view, discrimination against people is
:18:16. > :18:21.always wrong, never acceptable but discrimination against ideas I think
:18:22. > :18:26.is legitimate any free and democratic society. Me and Peter
:18:27. > :18:31.agree and disagree a lot of things. He has every right in his opinion on
:18:32. > :18:37.this matter. A printer printing something is not the endorsement of
:18:38. > :18:41.it. There is legislation was... There is logic behind that. Printer
:18:42. > :18:48.printing something doesn't mean they're endorsing it. Yes and no. If
:18:49. > :18:53.a printer is printing something, they may decide that what we are
:18:54. > :18:57.being asked to print is incompatible with conscientious beliefs. I would
:18:58. > :19:05.be very reluctant to force them under legal sanction to do so. If
:19:06. > :19:11.the far right extremist went to a Jewish printer and demanded that he
:19:12. > :19:15.or she printed a book denying the Holocaust, I would not like the
:19:16. > :19:20.Jewish printer to be in a situation where he or she would fear being
:19:21. > :19:27.sued if they failed deliver that. Naomi? I understand the point Peter
:19:28. > :19:30.makes and respect him. I differ from it and the respect that in Northern
:19:31. > :19:33.Ireland we have a particular quality laws that protect people from the
:19:34. > :19:39.termination of their political opinions and beliefs. If we don't
:19:40. > :19:43.uphold those laws properly in court, what will end up with is essentially
:19:44. > :19:47.a situation where because of your political opinion or belief, you
:19:48. > :19:51.could be denied services, denied access to things are entitled to and
:19:52. > :19:56.I think that's wrong. I understand the issue of free speech that
:19:57. > :20:02.someone is not actually endorsing a view. The people who print Gregory's
:20:03. > :20:07.poster also print my posters. The are clearly not taking sides. I
:20:08. > :20:12.don't know about you specifically. There might not be any more after he
:20:13. > :20:14.signed at that. The are not endorsing either of us and I
:20:15. > :20:18.wouldn't want to think that someone who disagreed with me would think
:20:19. > :20:22.that that printer was responsible for my views and message. One of the
:20:23. > :20:26.beauties of this programme being live tonight, there are lots and
:20:27. > :20:31.lots of different ways you can get in touch with us tonight. There are
:20:32. > :20:35.a lot of people on Facebook and my Twitter feed at Stephen Nolan and
:20:36. > :20:40.text sending is different views. Here is a teacher he was just text
:20:41. > :20:44.with me in the last few minutes. It says, Stephen if my religious
:20:45. > :20:46.beliefs stated that I could not promote homosexuality, does that
:20:47. > :20:52.mean that I could choose not to teach gay children? What a
:20:53. > :20:56.fascinating text, actually. It's a question for you. Riding a service
:20:57. > :20:59.to the public means you don't get to choose who you provide the service
:21:00. > :21:05.too. Let's take that direct question from a teacher. There is a child who
:21:06. > :21:12.identifies as gay and woody teacher have a right to say, sorry, I'm not
:21:13. > :21:17.teaching that child? That is not a fair and analogy. It's very, very
:21:18. > :21:23.clear. Ashers was not refusing to serve Gareth Lee because he was gay.
:21:24. > :21:29.It was simply about the message. Of course, a teacher should have a
:21:30. > :21:40.right to refuse to teach a pupil. What if that pupil... OK, fair
:21:41. > :21:46.enough. What if the people any teacher's classroom said, sir, I
:21:47. > :21:49.want is my essay for this week to write an essay about why gay
:21:50. > :21:52.marriage is a great thing in Northern Ireland. Busy teacher have
:21:53. > :21:56.a right to say sorry, that's against my religious beliefs. He will not do
:21:57. > :22:05.that McGlashan. I don't think the issue has ever came up. This is a
:22:06. > :22:09.teacher asking the question. There already is provision in schools for
:22:10. > :22:14.people for example parents of children who want them exempted from
:22:15. > :22:17.whatever is, worship or whatever, but all they do they go to the
:22:18. > :22:21.principal teacher and said I would prefer that my tale is excused and
:22:22. > :22:26.they are excused. Again, that is because we have an overriding
:22:27. > :22:33.principle... The teachers are not exempt. There is no law in Northern
:22:34. > :22:37.Ireland. You've turned the question on its head. The question was about
:22:38. > :22:40.what the teacher's response would have to be in the teacher is the
:22:41. > :22:43.provider of the service would have to allow the tail to write the
:22:44. > :22:53.essay, submitted an market whatever they may think about it. Go sir.
:22:54. > :22:57.Basically in 2012 in Colorado, there was a Christian beaker there who had
:22:58. > :23:01.a similar case brought against him and two years later on, the scene
:23:02. > :23:05.but she is part than Northern Ireland. If the equality commission
:23:06. > :23:08.was so far on Vicky Wright and cheering everyone equal, why can
:23:09. > :23:11.they have marriage in England, Wales, Scotland and Southern
:23:12. > :23:15.Ireland, why isn't there a commission taken the assembly to
:23:16. > :23:18.court and the determination on gay marriage? The majority of people in
:23:19. > :23:24.the assembly voted for gay marriage here in Northern Ireland and the GDP
:23:25. > :23:31.decided that they would threaten to use a petition to block it. It
:23:32. > :23:36.depends on which occasion you're referring to. On a number of
:23:37. > :23:44.occasions... The assembly voted by a majority on a number of occasions
:23:45. > :23:46.not to proceed. And despite using the petition of concern it would
:23:47. > :23:58.have been one anyway on those occasions. Absolutely. It's been
:23:59. > :24:03.voted on and on a number of occasions. What you're trying to say
:24:04. > :24:09.is that the tide is turning. No doubt it will come up again. Are you
:24:10. > :24:13.trying to see the most recent Wood is an relevant? So you go to the
:24:14. > :24:22.next would? I said it's been voted on on a number of occasions. Joining
:24:23. > :24:27.us from the SDLP in our studio, Mark, I've seen the comments coming
:24:28. > :24:31.into the radio show and there is genuine division in our country will
:24:32. > :24:35.reverse around people being forced against their will to deliver a
:24:36. > :24:41.service. Those people, no one is handing them money. They get up out
:24:42. > :24:47.of bed, create a business, create employment and then the are forced
:24:48. > :24:52.to do something against their will. Absolutely, they do. There is huge
:24:53. > :24:57.division about this issue and the opinion that matters, it's not minor
:24:58. > :25:03.Naomi's, it's the opinion of the court and the court has now given
:25:04. > :25:08.that opinion again. Don't get me wrong, free expression and political
:25:09. > :25:15.expression is a cornerstone of our democracy and we do everything to do
:25:16. > :25:21.that. It doesn't seem to apply to Ashers, does that? This case was
:25:22. > :25:25.about equality. This judgment is in necessary fortification of air
:25:26. > :25:30.quality framework. We do welcome it in that respect and people know that
:25:31. > :25:34.they can go into the business for it advertises a service and they can
:25:35. > :25:38.expect to get that service regardless of their own political
:25:39. > :25:46.views, provided their views themselves don't break the law. This
:25:47. > :25:51.has much wider implications than just political and religious issues.
:25:52. > :25:54.This is Government overreach. It's going to fire and telling business
:25:55. > :25:59.owners that you don't have a right of choice here. You do exactly what
:26:00. > :26:03.we tell you to do. There is no conscience clause. They can't
:26:04. > :26:07.disagree. Like Doctor Michael, the head of the equality commission on
:26:08. > :26:12.Monday, he was giving the example of the flag seller on the whether they
:26:13. > :26:16.would sell Unionist flags, if somebody came in and unions flags
:26:17. > :26:21.went available, could they be taken to court? He could have provided
:26:22. > :26:24.clarity about that but he actually did not. It was clear that he is
:26:25. > :26:29.just as confused by the consequences of this court decision as everyone
:26:30. > :26:39.else. He said he couldn't offer advice. Someone can be forced to
:26:40. > :26:44.provide a product or a service that they don't already provide. They
:26:45. > :26:47.can't go into flag shop and say, do you provide tricolours? Well, I
:26:48. > :26:58.demand tricolours. You can't demand that. The only thing they're
:26:59. > :27:09.required to do is not discriminate. No one is being forced to do
:27:10. > :27:12.anything. The Ashers bakery where in existence first 15 years. I presume
:27:13. > :27:18.there are policies didn't change in the chorus of those 15 years. It
:27:19. > :27:22.wasn't until the equality commission entered the arena after Gareth Lee
:27:23. > :27:34.had gone to the equality commission that they were then... How were a
:27:35. > :27:50.forced to do anything? They haven't made the cake, they're not going to.
:27:51. > :27:55.Called an! No one is being forced to produce material or to ice things on
:27:56. > :28:00.cakes that they don't want to eyes but what they cannot do... They are
:28:01. > :28:12.having to withdraw products and services. Very quickly. Gregory said
:28:13. > :28:19.there was extensions and schools are people that believe in things. We
:28:20. > :28:29.are going to move on. Very quickly, Mark.
:28:30. > :28:36.Gregory was working in a bakery and I asked him to take me a Glasgow
:28:37. > :28:40.Celtic cake congratulating him on their latest league victory, how
:28:41. > :28:45.would he feel about that? I don't think it is a life changing or moral
:28:46. > :28:53.issue. Footballers and life changing? It is important but not
:28:54. > :28:55.life changing and people do not establish a moral code with it.
:28:56. > :29:04.It was a big day at Stormont yesterday, the Health Minister
:29:05. > :29:06.Michelle O'Neill spelt out her ten-year vision for how she's
:29:07. > :29:16.She's described it as "breaking point".
:29:17. > :29:20.She is going to get you off it as quickly as possible.
:29:21. > :29:48.It is a good news day, a fresh start for the health service, we have an
:29:49. > :29:53.executive endorsement for a strategic plan for the next ten
:29:54. > :29:56.years. There is no quick fix for the problems we have in the health
:29:57. > :30:02.service but what I set out is a direction of travel, a vision for
:30:03. > :30:07.delivering outcomes. I'm delighted it has been endorsed. It is the
:30:08. > :30:10.first time we have seen a plan for delivering transformation in the
:30:11. > :30:18.health service which the executive has fully endorsed. You have one
:30:19. > :30:24.sentence about your actions as to waiting lists. Develop a
:30:25. > :30:29.comprehensive approach to waiting lists. It is a longer term solution
:30:30. > :30:36.to waiting lists, one of the biggest challenges we have. There are two
:30:37. > :30:41.aspects. One is short-term, one is long-term. In the short-term,
:30:42. > :30:47.additional investment, alongside that we have to buy in services from
:30:48. > :30:50.independent sector. Not where I want to be but I will go there to make
:30:51. > :30:55.sure patients are seen in a timely manner. In terms of short-term
:30:56. > :31:03.action, will the money be derived from recurring funding or from the
:31:04. > :31:13.monetary amount? Mixture's budget. -- next year. Then you're doing
:31:14. > :31:16.nothing from now until next year. Iron engaging with staff daily and
:31:17. > :31:29.they're depressed at the attention waiting lists get because the health
:31:30. > :31:35.service is... What are you doing in November and December? We need to
:31:36. > :31:41.make sure the health service is up to full capacity. Are you investing
:31:42. > :31:48.single penny of extra money to waiting lists before next budget? I
:31:49. > :31:58.am actively doing everything I possibly can to bring down waiting
:31:59. > :32:02.lists. How much more? We had ?40 million and it is still going
:32:03. > :32:07.through the system. We have extra clinics, we have brought in private
:32:08. > :32:15.sector services. We have to have the whole system transformed. The
:32:16. > :32:22.private sector money is gone. We have in-house services and buying in
:32:23. > :32:31.external services. What is your target for reducing? We have to
:32:32. > :32:35.tackle the root causes and transform the health service to mature people
:32:36. > :32:43.are supported in communities. We will increase the number of GPs,
:32:44. > :32:45.nurses by 100, GPs by 26, named district health visitors, social
:32:46. > :32:52.workers and nurses working with GP surgeries. And your target for year
:32:53. > :32:59.one? This will transform the health and social care system. We have a
:33:00. > :33:05.21st-century service. I am asking what you're going to deliver. You
:33:06. > :33:14.would like me to change everything tomorrow morning. I didn't mention
:33:15. > :33:17.tomorrow morning I said in one year. We have done a significant body of
:33:18. > :33:24.work and I have said I will publish a plan over the next five years to
:33:25. > :33:31.change... In January you're going to publish another plan? Do you have a
:33:32. > :33:37.target? I have a target that I will produce a report... I have a target
:33:38. > :33:45.in the report that says we will reduce waiting lists incrementally
:33:46. > :33:53.over the next five years. How much? Incrementally. Which means over a
:33:54. > :34:03.certain year to reach a target. When I just the plan in January I am
:34:04. > :34:09.happy to come back. So another plan. We have many reports. Which is why I
:34:10. > :34:14.am pushing your little today. This is the fourth report. There is
:34:15. > :34:20.fatigue in the system of reports. This shows we have a plan for the
:34:21. > :34:28.next ten years and I think it is as significant itself. This will be a
:34:29. > :34:33.long incremental change. I set out 18 point two deliver in year one
:34:34. > :34:43.that shows we are going to design services. I just told you about
:34:44. > :34:55.waiting lists. If you're waiting to be seen by the health service. You
:34:56. > :35:02.might be thinking at home at least she has set a target of 10% and then
:35:03. > :35:12.if they hear the word incremental they will think you're going to
:35:13. > :35:20.reduce it further. Your focus on one area of the health service. You have
:35:21. > :35:29.no target on waiting lists. Waiting lists are unacceptable and I will do
:35:30. > :35:35.everything in my part. Is it costed? Yes. It points to how to redesign
:35:36. > :35:42.the health service in future, working with patients, staff. We are
:35:43. > :35:52.going to make sure that I set out how I am going to do it. What did
:35:53. > :35:59.the total cost of the visions? There is an executive process. That
:36:00. > :36:07.executive process would release the money. What is the total cost of
:36:08. > :36:14.your vision? I would go through the process with the executive first.
:36:15. > :36:18.Hospitals in Northern Ireland, you're saying you're going to pass
:36:19. > :36:25.the decision-making on as to whether services should be centralised. In
:36:26. > :36:30.the public have more confidence knowing clinicians are involved in
:36:31. > :36:35.decisions. Will they make the decisions? They will make
:36:36. > :36:39.recommendations. I am going to show political leadership year. This is a
:36:40. > :36:54.time and they have to deliver better outcomes. If we keep doing things
:36:55. > :37:00.the way we are... Is a 90% of the current budget? Everything will
:37:01. > :37:06.change with inflation so it is 90% of the block grant. If the medical
:37:07. > :37:09.profession say cancer services should be centralised in one
:37:10. > :37:19.hospital, do you all the right to overrule them? I have to listen to
:37:20. > :37:25.clinicians but take decisions guided by that. I have had so many
:37:26. > :37:31.difficult decisions as a health minister but I will do it if it
:37:32. > :37:36.delivers better health. I am here to make a difference. Health services
:37:37. > :37:45.out of date and cannot deliver and waiting lists are a symptom of a
:37:46. > :37:54.poor system. Promise people what you will reduce waiting lists by in the
:37:55. > :37:59.first year. I promise I will transfer... Transform the health
:38:00. > :38:19.service for the better. I will bring down waiting lists. She has a ten
:38:20. > :38:23.year vision for everyone. Did you take out of that interview,
:38:24. > :38:29.genuinely open question, that they have got a plan for short-term
:38:30. > :38:33.planning? Some people have been sitting on a waiting list for one or
:38:34. > :38:39.two years and they contact me and say we are desperate. We have no
:38:40. > :38:52.money for the independent sector and we cannot get seen. I think there
:38:53. > :38:57.are a couple of things. First of all, in terms of investment in the
:38:58. > :39:03.longer term, I think if the health minister does what she said then it
:39:04. > :39:05.is a good thing and she will have my support and that of the party in
:39:06. > :39:10.doing it because difficult decisions need to be made and it is more
:39:11. > :39:13.important that we have the best possible service available to people
:39:14. > :39:18.than necessarily where we actually deliver. We have to front-load the
:39:19. > :39:24.system so fewer people get sick in the first place, so it means
:39:25. > :39:27.investing in GPs, counselling, health professionals, and then
:39:28. > :39:33.dealing with issues of when people do get sick and to hospital so they
:39:34. > :39:41.have the best possible care. Dalston and is party representative -- the
:39:42. > :39:45.Ulster Unionist Party representative said he would be against
:39:46. > :39:49.centralising services so what they are essentially saying as part of
:39:50. > :39:54.this plan is if you take a heart attack or a stroke then the evidence
:39:55. > :40:00.is it would be better for you to pass some local hospitals and go to
:40:01. > :40:04.a hospital where there is specialist service. Why is it controversial? It
:40:05. > :40:07.means you're passing your local hospital and some people want to
:40:08. > :40:14.keep their local hospital open and some politicians get my cards saying
:40:15. > :40:17.we want to save our local hospital, even if the outcome for you and your
:40:18. > :40:22.family might be worse. This is a game changer and you support
:40:23. > :40:29.centralising acute services like heart and stroke? Yes. If I was
:40:30. > :40:34.going to be admitted to hospital for a heart attack or a stroke then my
:40:35. > :40:38.focus wouldn't be on how many miles I spent in the ambulance but on what
:40:39. > :40:42.my long-term health outcome is going to be invented and if I will get
:40:43. > :40:47.better treatment by going an extra few miles then that is a better
:40:48. > :40:53.outcome. The placard stuff, you are right. It is easy to play games like
:40:54. > :41:00.this. But you wouldn't be serving the public who elect to. Gregory,
:41:01. > :41:03.there is something confusing me and it is because of a phone call I got
:41:04. > :41:09.a few hours before we came on air and it is this. It has been
:41:10. > :41:18.suggested that the health minister has not bid for any extra money for
:41:19. > :41:22.the October monitoring round. In terms of dealing with waiting lists.
:41:23. > :41:28.Why is that significant? Simon Hamilton in your party last year
:41:29. > :41:35.fought for and got ?40 million to deal with waiting lists. This year
:41:36. > :41:41.and Michelle O'Neill has not got a single penny in the monitoring round
:41:42. > :41:44.to deal with waiting lists. They got it .7 million for essential
:41:45. > :41:51.maintenance and the purchase of ambulance to February to us --
:41:52. > :41:55.defibrillators. You would need to know what the health service budget
:41:56. > :42:03.is at the moment and whether or not she needs to apply for monitoring
:42:04. > :42:07.round money. She needs money for the health service, big-money, but the
:42:08. > :42:12.point is I don't know and I don't think you know either what the
:42:13. > :42:18.internal debate is within the health service about the best way to
:42:19. > :42:26.allocate the money. Why is she not asking for money? Why didn't you ask
:42:27. > :42:31.her. She is the health minister and you didn't ask in the interview and
:42:32. > :42:40.now you're asking me? Yes, you're the government. Do you think she
:42:41. > :42:44.should have asked for money? I think she should ensure and do our best to
:42:45. > :42:48.ensure that waiting lists are reduced and that means applying for
:42:49. > :42:53.monitoring round money then she should but I don't know what her
:42:54. > :42:58.budgetary arrangements are like. Waiting lists are going through the
:42:59. > :43:01.roof and the people who voted for you in your constituency are sitting
:43:02. > :43:10.on a waiting list for six, nine, 12 months. Why did she ask for money? I
:43:11. > :43:16.don't know and we need to find out and you needed to find out
:43:17. > :43:20.yesterday. We need clarification. It is serious and I will tell you why
:43:21. > :43:25.in a second. It has been suggested tonight that Michelle O'Neill may
:43:26. > :43:30.get money in January so there is big-money that they get every year
:43:31. > :43:33.to handle her budget and then extra money, the monitoring round, extra
:43:34. > :43:37.money that they get because money taken from other departments and not
:43:38. > :43:42.spent and they give it to where there is a priority. It has been
:43:43. > :43:48.suggested that she will get money if she asks for it in January. Why is
:43:49. > :43:53.that interesting? Lots of questions will be asked about this. With that
:43:54. > :43:57.money, they have got to spend it by the end of March. What did Simon
:43:58. > :44:04.Hamilton have to do last year? He got 40 million. He couldn't spend
:44:05. > :44:10.the whole thing, he spent 25 and 15 went elsewhere. But they're not
:44:11. > :44:13.asking for it now and if they ask in January they are two months further
:44:14. > :44:18.down the line of asking for it than last year. Is that not concerning?
:44:19. > :44:23.How are they going to spend this money in January?
:44:24. > :44:30.You're assuming she will bid for a 60 million in January by which then
:44:31. > :44:34.she has two months to spend it. I don't know if the case. The only
:44:35. > :44:43.person who knows is the health minister. Exactly. Gregory has hit
:44:44. > :44:46.the nail on the head perhaps inadvertently because the committee
:44:47. > :44:49.that scrutinises the health ministers should have access to the
:44:50. > :44:53.monitoring rounds should be able to see what the Minister has bid for,
:44:54. > :44:59.should be able to see Freddy pressures in system are. But also to
:45:00. > :45:02.support the Minister if she has a genuine pressure, the committee is
:45:03. > :45:06.there to advise and support the Minister as well as hold her to
:45:07. > :45:09.account. Since the DUP Sinn Fein have gone into Government on their
:45:10. > :45:12.own, it was monitoring rounds have come to us. Martin McGuinness said
:45:13. > :45:17.in the chamber when I asked him what happened with the monitoring round
:45:18. > :45:21.that we would get that information. We would definitely get them in
:45:22. > :45:25.October but we haven't and there already been the statement in the
:45:26. > :45:30.chamber that the monitoring rounds... The health committee has
:45:31. > :45:32.not been able to have this discussion with the health minister
:45:33. > :45:36.it so that they can have this discussion with you because it's
:45:37. > :45:46.your money, it's your health service and you should know what's going on.
:45:47. > :45:49.I know when you start hearing about monitoring rounds you probably fall
:45:50. > :45:52.asleep but here is what is so important. If you are setting and
:45:53. > :45:58.you've been waiting a year and you're in pain, you don't know last
:45:59. > :46:04.October, you knew that Simon Hamilton fought for ?40 million to
:46:05. > :46:10.tackle waiting lists there and then, Michelle O'Neill has not got one
:46:11. > :46:15.extra penny as we sit here to tackle waiting lists next month. Not one
:46:16. > :46:18.extra penny or indeed in December and why is she waiting until
:46:19. > :46:23.January? We don't even know what she's going to ask for in January.
:46:24. > :46:27.Because the waiting for a plan, is that it? I don't know but I'll tell
:46:28. > :46:30.you what, there will be lots of people asking her tomorrow on behalf
:46:31. > :46:38.of every person in this country sitting on a waiting list. I'm going
:46:39. > :46:41.to come from this from the perspective of cancer. If you're any
:46:42. > :46:44.waiting list and you have a suspect to cancer, this is a
:46:45. > :46:48.life-threatening situation. The sooner it is found and dealt with,
:46:49. > :46:54.the much better your prognosis is. The stats have now changed, half of
:46:55. > :46:57.us will have cancer, it is fast becoming Northern Ireland's biggest
:46:58. > :47:00.killer and I'm disappointed in Michelle O'Neill not addressing what
:47:01. > :47:05.is possibly going to be Northern Ireland's biggest killer at all
:47:06. > :47:11.specifically. That's not fair because she very much has a big plan
:47:12. > :47:15.of things to do. For example, I will show you. She doesn't have targets
:47:16. > :47:21.for costings in this document around waiting times. But have a look at
:47:22. > :47:24.this, what she does have. She has basically promised in terms of
:47:25. > :47:29.things that she's actually to achieve and his bit dates beside
:47:30. > :47:35.them. That is the wrong clip. That's her ministerial targets. I will read
:47:36. > :47:37.it out when I find it in this document. She's essentially promised
:47:38. > :47:59.in March of next year... She has picked time frames around
:48:00. > :48:03.that type of stuff, around doctors. That's not the cancer strategy that
:48:04. > :48:06.I assume the lady who asked the question would like to see brought
:48:07. > :48:09.forward. It's not a thing the health minister has done nothing but in
:48:10. > :48:13.terms of the cancer strategy it is really important there is a proper
:48:14. > :48:16.strategy in place to deal with this right from the moment where somebody
:48:17. > :48:20.get a red flag at the GP, right through to the point where they get
:48:21. > :48:23.treatment and that strategy needs to be in place because people need to
:48:24. > :48:26.be trained in terms of specialisms and doctors and GPs need to be
:48:27. > :48:33.trained in terms of how to actually diagnose. We are in danger of
:48:34. > :48:36.agreement with each other here. In terms of the health professionals,
:48:37. > :48:39.if they come to the health Department and the executive and
:48:40. > :48:43.there is a broad consensus that there does need to be change, in
:48:44. > :48:47.terms of the long term, there are short-term issues and pressures that
:48:48. > :48:51.have to be dealt with, but I looked at the figures earlier on today. 15
:48:52. > :48:59.years ago at the century, one third of a smaller brock brand was going
:49:00. > :49:03.to health, now 50% of a larger grant is going to health and I presumed
:49:04. > :49:06.that is why the minister came out with the figure from the report
:49:07. > :49:11.which says if we go on with this, it will be 90%. There would be no money
:49:12. > :49:16.for roads, education, for all the other departments that the right. We
:49:17. > :49:24.need an analysis from the professionals. You've had it and
:49:25. > :49:27.she's had four weeks, months. We now need to see it implemented and we
:49:28. > :49:33.need to ensure there is a political consensus behind that. I agree with
:49:34. > :49:36.Gregory and he is right. If the minister is willing to take those
:49:37. > :49:40.tough decisions, we're not going to play political football with this.
:49:41. > :49:47.It's far too serious an issue. Here's my concern. We sat in the
:49:48. > :49:51.chamber yesterday while the justice minister talked about not losing
:49:52. > :49:55.court rooms. Most of us in here and never want to be inside a courthouse
:49:56. > :49:59.in our lives if we can avoid it. But she wasn't willing to do that to
:50:00. > :50:02.save ?1.1 million is adjusted budget to then be able to spend that on
:50:03. > :50:08.delivery of the Justice service because it was an decision. If that
:50:09. > :50:12.same approach is taken with respect and hospitals then we are in real
:50:13. > :50:16.trouble. If the same populism we have seen with hospitals which we
:50:17. > :50:19.will all end up on at some point in our lives if that approach is taken,
:50:20. > :50:29.we will not do the reform that we need. You were on the waiting list?
:50:30. > :50:38.Yes. How long are you waiting? A year very hacked joint. Arguing
:50:39. > :50:45.pain? Yes. We were told we would be called in October, then he has been
:50:46. > :50:51.bumped down the list by eight months to October 20 17. How does that
:50:52. > :51:00.feel? It's unbelievable. It's a waste of money. They haven't reduced
:51:01. > :51:04.waiting lists. You are the type of case I am talking about that these
:51:05. > :51:10.questions and bring into the public debate tonight. You are exactly a
:51:11. > :51:17.case. You are now being told that you are going to have to wait until
:51:18. > :51:21.October 20 17. Why is the Minister not fighting right now, like Simon
:51:22. > :51:27.Hamilton dead, for that extra money that would pool waiting lists down?
:51:28. > :51:33.Why is she not doing that for people like you? I don't know. He is an
:51:34. > :51:41.urgent case. Why and half weeks of the bumped from March 2017 to
:51:42. > :51:48.October 20 17. He should be getting bumped down the list. It's a concern
:51:49. > :51:54.for anybody else join in a list. What does it feel like having to
:51:55. > :52:03.keep being pushed down that list List I feel very sick. Very sick
:52:04. > :52:14.indeed. Hold on, with respect. Take your time, I want you to take your
:52:15. > :52:18.time. I conceive what it means to you. What would it mean to you if
:52:19. > :52:29.you got treated? It would mean a whole lot to me. When you listen to
:52:30. > :52:34.what you said, you can be touched by it. The problem that we have in the
:52:35. > :52:40.health service is the multiplication of problems, elongate in the waiting
:52:41. > :52:44.time. You've outlined exactly what happened. You thought you were going
:52:45. > :52:49.to get the procedure done this month. And then early next year and
:52:50. > :52:54.there it could be this time next year. We have to try and develop a
:52:55. > :52:58.better way of doing this so that waiting time, if it's not
:52:59. > :53:04.eliminated, is shortened rather than keep getting longer as more and more
:53:05. > :53:12.people are joining the waiting list. Still here, Stephen. What's your
:53:13. > :53:17.reaction to this? We gave a cautious welcome to the statement and the
:53:18. > :53:21.review Mac. It's fair to say we drew some criticism from the Government
:53:22. > :53:25.because we weren't doing cartwheels at the launch of this report. I
:53:26. > :53:29.think that position is being vindicated today and will be
:53:30. > :53:33.vindicated as we go forward. I have no problems with what is in the
:53:34. > :53:36.report. Some of the improvements that will be carried out, some are
:53:37. > :53:43.very necessary improvements that will improve patients. Our problems
:53:44. > :53:50.are with what isn't there. There is a distinct lack of detail. Are you
:53:51. > :53:54.surprised the are not fighting for and announcing money right now for
:53:55. > :53:57.waiting lists like they did last year? I am surprised and
:53:58. > :54:01.disappointed that someone made that phone call to you today to bring
:54:02. > :54:06.that teacher attention because those are point I was hoping to make
:54:07. > :54:14.tonight. We have the whole palaver worked Simon Hamilton last year.
:54:15. > :54:16.Around the fact that she hadn't got money in this monitoring rate
:54:17. > :54:21.despite the fact that she says in that interview that she did need
:54:22. > :54:33.additional investment, she needed to get money. Hello. What's your
:54:34. > :54:37.reaction to this? The impact on cancer patients is that lady said
:54:38. > :54:42.someone who thinks they have cancer and on a waiting list the anxiety
:54:43. > :54:46.grows and grows for the family and them and it is very worrying. We do
:54:47. > :54:51.want fewer people to get cancer and those who do, we want the best
:54:52. > :54:57.possible outcomes that we are disappointed. I like the direction
:54:58. > :55:00.of the Bengoa. It is the clear targets and the accountability that
:55:01. > :55:05.we are looking for. We suggested they should be a transformation
:55:06. > :55:09.panel. We can hold the Minister to account politically and also with
:55:10. > :55:15.those who work in the service so we can actually see the progress being
:55:16. > :55:19.made. OK. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you. We promise we
:55:20. > :55:21.will pick up a lot of the questions we've been asking tomorrow morning.
:55:22. > :55:24.We started the show with a row over a cake.
:55:25. > :55:27.And there could be more rows over cake and who deserved to win
:55:28. > :55:31.Local star Andrew Smyth from Holywood was in the final earlier.
:55:32. > :55:33.But there was no icing on the cake for him,
:55:34. > :55:38.But it was still an incredible achievement to make the final.
:55:39. > :55:48.Let's have a look at some of his highlights.
:55:49. > :55:55.You're nervous about anything that small thing that goes wrong could be
:55:56. > :56:13.your last day in the tent. That's a really nice cake.
:56:14. > :56:18.Congratulations, Andrew. You are a star Baker. OK. That was the big
:56:19. > :56:21.show tonight. That was a big show tonight,
:56:22. > :56:24.but before we go we have a real He will be back in Northern Ireland
:56:25. > :56:29.next month for four shows, But singing us out with his number
:56:30. > :56:33.one hit Is This The Way To Amarillo, # When the day is dawning
:56:34. > :56:58.on a Texas Sunday morning # With Marie who's
:56:59. > :57:05.waiting for me there # Every lonely city
:57:06. > :57:12.where I hang my hat # Ain't as half as pretty
:57:13. > :57:19.as where my baby's at # Every night I've
:57:20. > :57:28.been hugging my pillow # Dreaming dreams of Amarillo
:57:29. > :57:33.and sweet Marie who waits for me # Show me the way to Amarillo,
:57:34. > :57:37.I've been weeping like a willow # Crying over Amarillo and sweet
:57:38. > :57:47.Marie who waits for me # Hear the song of joy
:57:48. > :58:09.that it's singing # For the sweet Maria and the guy
:58:10. > :58:16.who's coming to see her # Just beyond the highway,
:58:17. > :58:23.there's an open plain # And it keeps me going
:58:24. > :58:30.through the wind and rain # Every night I've
:58:31. > :58:39.been hugging my pillow # Dreaming dreams of Amarillo
:58:40. > :58:44.and sweet Marie who waits for me # Show me the way to Amarillo,
:58:45. > :58:52.I've been weeping like a willow # Crying over Amarillo and sweet
:58:53. > :59:02.Marie who waits for me # And Marie who waits for me.