:00:07. > :00:14.The black boy and funeral we look to the legacy of Martin McGuinness.
:00:15. > :00:21.What do you think it should be? Statesman or gunman? Here is how we
:00:22. > :00:26.reacted when police Constable Stephen Carroll was shot. There is a
:00:27. > :00:30.duty and responsibility on me to lead from the front. I think I am
:00:31. > :00:39.reading from the front and I suspect people will follow because these
:00:40. > :00:46.people are traitors to Ireland. But the former IRA leader is taking many
:00:47. > :00:52.secrets to his grave. Let me ask the question. I was a member of the IRA
:00:53. > :00:55.and the IRA killed members of the RUC and that it is the
:00:56. > :00:59.responsibility for being a member of the IRA then I have to accept the
:01:00. > :01:07.responsibility, but that was in the past. I wonder if I am sitting here
:01:08. > :01:11.looking at a teller. You can wonder all you want but I wonder what will
:01:12. > :01:18.happen now and in the future. -- killer. Also tonight, Britain's most
:01:19. > :01:24.senior child protection officer says not all people who download images
:01:25. > :01:30.should be prosecuted. We debate that and meet a group personally hunting
:01:31. > :01:38.down paedophiles. This one targeted a 14-year-old child. And what is he
:01:39. > :02:14.saying? Just normal chatter, do you want to be my girlfriend?
:02:15. > :02:21.Welcome, and I am sure you know that Martin McGuinness, who doesn't know
:02:22. > :02:24.that he died yesterday at the age of 66, and immediately since his death
:02:25. > :02:29.there has been an outpouring of opinion, strong divided opinion, as
:02:30. > :02:40.to whether he should be remembered as a man of violence or of peace.
:02:41. > :02:46.Martin McGuinness was a political visionary. He played an alarmist
:02:47. > :02:50.part in delivering fundamental change in the society and in
:02:51. > :02:58.transforming the relationships on this island and between Irelands.
:02:59. > :03:02.History will judge and then all things history will have final say
:03:03. > :03:07.and it is precisely because of his past and his involvement with the
:03:08. > :03:11.IRA in the 70s and 80s and of his influence within that those circles
:03:12. > :03:13.he was able to play the role he played in bringing the republican
:03:14. > :03:19.movement towards choosing peaceful and democratic means, and because of
:03:20. > :03:30.all of that I doubt we will see his like again. As the officer
:03:31. > :03:32.commanding, can use safe whether the bombing is likely to stop in future
:03:33. > :03:58.in response to public demand? I am a man of peace. I am a peaceful
:03:59. > :04:01.person but I have been forced into believing and supporting the only
:04:02. > :04:12.method which I feel can remove the British from my country.
:04:13. > :04:19.We don't believe that winning elections and any kind of votes will
:04:20. > :04:22.bring freedom to Ireland and at the end of the day it is the cutting
:04:23. > :04:33.edge of the IRA that will bring freedom.
:04:34. > :04:38.Today the elected representatives of the people of Northern Ireland have
:04:39. > :04:42.taken responsibility for the future of Northern Ireland. It is what
:04:43. > :04:50.people voted for and what has happened.
:04:51. > :04:57.What is the current state of your relationship with the Deputy First
:04:58. > :05:25.Minister? What it always was! No change. No surrender.
:05:26. > :05:32.Do you think it will be well received if you give an apology
:05:33. > :05:37.finally to people for what you did in the past? Imagine how the
:05:38. > :05:43.unionist community would receive that. In terms of the past I am
:05:44. > :05:59.sorry. The only fair thing to do, which I
:06:00. > :06:13.have done today, was make it clear that I would unfortunately, even
:06:14. > :06:37.though it breaks my heart... My heart lies with the people of Derry.
:06:38. > :06:44.My goodness, what divided opinion that has been in Northern Ireland
:06:45. > :06:51.over the last day or two. You have probably heard that on air, is that
:06:52. > :06:56.actually an answer? J is a divided answer in itself, when you try to
:06:57. > :07:01.assess Martin McGuinness. It is important to look at the whole
:07:02. > :07:06.picture, and to be truthful, we should be careful of what we say but
:07:07. > :07:09.we should be truthful. There are divisions of opinion in the Irish
:07:10. > :07:16.Republic and there are different opinions if you look at GB
:07:17. > :07:19.newspapers, a whole range of opinions. Some will emphasise more
:07:20. > :07:24.the early years and the violence and the terrorism. Some will focus more
:07:25. > :07:30.on the latter years with the political involvement, and they are
:07:31. > :07:35.all part of the man. What is important is that for the sake of
:07:36. > :07:40.the victims, we should not allow that part of the story to be written
:07:41. > :07:46.out, and in some cases there has not been adequate focus on that. Let's
:07:47. > :07:58.go on to the audience. Who wants to speak about this first tonight. I
:07:59. > :08:04.think, and you even said that the various dart of the programme about
:08:05. > :08:08.the legacy, and Michelle O'Neill constantly says it about Sinn Fein,
:08:09. > :08:14.that legacy issues are to be discussed with the DUP, and I don't
:08:15. > :08:18.think it's fair to forget Martin McGuinness's legacy and that he did
:08:19. > :08:23.what he did. What is his legacy to you? I have the good fortune of
:08:24. > :08:27.being born after the Good Friday agreement was signed so I am going
:08:28. > :08:35.by what I have been called and have read, and to me, he was both sides
:08:36. > :08:40.of the coin. On one side he was a terrorist and on the other a
:08:41. > :08:46.peacemaker and that so I it. It is not one view or the other, that is
:08:47. > :08:54.the way it is. You have very different impression? My dad was a
:08:55. > :09:00.chief prison officer in 1983 and he was shot by the IRA as he left the
:09:01. > :09:04.National Stadium in Dublin, shot in the back of the neck, and he was
:09:05. > :09:14.paralysed and brain damaged and eventually passed away. The IRA
:09:15. > :09:22.denied responsibility for the over 30 years until I basically badgered
:09:23. > :09:26.Gerry Adams and to meeting the and we met an IRA commander and we got
:09:27. > :09:30.an admission after 30 years that they had actually carried out the
:09:31. > :09:38.attack. But on Martin McGuinness what is your view? We should never
:09:39. > :09:44.deny the last few years of his life and the work that he did in
:09:45. > :09:50.reconciling with political unionism but equally we should not and cannot
:09:51. > :09:55.deny what went before. People say it is in the past and Martin McGuinness
:09:56. > :10:00.used those terms in 2011, particularly down south, when
:10:01. > :10:03.victims approached him and particularly in the media. On one
:10:04. > :10:08.particular field he was very strident and seeing the victims
:10:09. > :10:17.should move on, but the victims are living with the legacy of Martin
:10:18. > :10:20.McGuinness today. I am thinking about friends who have a spare seat
:10:21. > :10:23.at the table where loved ones would have been. They are living with
:10:24. > :10:28.that. I guess for those who support Martin McGuinness they would say
:10:29. > :10:33.there would be far more victims but for people like him? Absolutely, but
:10:34. > :10:38.we cannot still lose sight and must look at the legacy in its totality,
:10:39. > :10:42.not just a small portion. We need to look at it in the round and not
:10:43. > :10:57.forget the people that are still suffering
:10:58. > :11:05.And he said he was proud of his IRA past. For me, and people like me,
:11:06. > :11:11.that means he was proud of killing my father. He didn't kill your
:11:12. > :11:17.father, did he? No, but his organisation did. Go ahead, says. Do
:11:18. > :11:23.we have a mike for this gentleman here? I think when we are talking
:11:24. > :11:28.about Martin McGuinness, we need to put his life in context. Martin
:11:29. > :11:32.McGuinness was born into a company that was occupied by the British,
:11:33. > :11:40.Festival. -- born into a country. First of all, the war came to his
:11:41. > :11:45.backyard. He didn't have a choice not to pick up a gun? When he
:11:46. > :11:50.witnessed... Didn't have a choice to join an organisation that puts
:11:51. > :11:55.people into a lorry? Unarmed people in front of his very AIDS. We need
:11:56. > :12:00.to put this in context, what made Martin McGuinness do certain things.
:12:01. > :12:03.-- unarmed people in front of him. He also left a state where the
:12:04. > :12:09.Nationalists, their voice could be heard. Although Martin -- if we are
:12:10. > :12:15.going to describe Martin's life, we need to be real about it and look at
:12:16. > :12:19.the whole life. Nelson? There has been some revisionism in that Martin
:12:20. > :12:22.McGuinness was already a member of the IRA long before bloody Sunday.
:12:23. > :12:26.To say that he signed up because of what he saw on bloody Sunday would
:12:27. > :12:31.be untrue. He was already a member before that. If you look at the
:12:32. > :12:37.early years of the Troubles, and he has in the past admitted that he was
:12:38. > :12:44.a member of the IRA in the early years of the Troubles, you're
:12:45. > :12:48.looking back to events in 1972. Not so far away from Londonderry. Nine
:12:49. > :12:54.people, including children, murdered by the IRA. We talk about
:12:55. > :13:00.peacemakers. But you only need peacemakers when there are piece
:13:01. > :13:05.rakers. In those early -- piece breakers. In the early years, the
:13:06. > :13:10.IRA was culpable for an proudly boasted of some of the most heinous
:13:11. > :13:12.crimes. If you look back to some other newspapers, more news was
:13:13. > :13:17.there where they were boasting and eulogising. They carried out these
:13:18. > :13:22.evil crimes, whether it was in Northern Ireland or the Republic.
:13:23. > :13:28.Patricia? What I'm hearing tonight gives me a lot more hope. Austin has
:13:29. > :13:32.been very eloquent and forthright in setting up the story of his life. I
:13:33. > :13:36.acknowledge his loss and I'm very sorry for your loss. But what's
:13:37. > :13:39.given me hope in what he has said is that he has forgiveness in his heart
:13:40. > :13:46.for the people who did wrong to his family. Nelson brought up the issue
:13:47. > :13:49.of the bombing. Yesterday I heard the brother of young Catherine
:13:50. > :13:55.Aitken, Child killed in the bombing, talk about his road to forgiveness
:13:56. > :13:59.and his road with Martin McGuinness. Let's not forget what we are saying
:14:00. > :14:02.here in the last couple of days - victims and survivors are leading
:14:03. > :14:07.the way and showing that this is how we heal our society. This is how we
:14:08. > :14:10.create a new society where we have respect for one another. Martin
:14:11. > :14:15.McGuinness's life has to be taken in the round. Every saint has a pass
:14:16. > :14:20.and everything has a future. We are all in that boat. We cannot simply
:14:21. > :14:24.say, let's forget the good that he did in terms of bringing Republicans
:14:25. > :14:31.to the negotiating table. Arthur, you were the editor of the Derry
:14:32. > :14:37.Journal. The Martin McGuinness that you knew in that community, who very
:14:38. > :14:40.much came out many times to support, how did that contrast against what
:14:41. > :14:46.has been said tonight? The balance that he supported as a IRA
:14:47. > :14:52.supporter? Well, he has openly admitted that. He's always admitted
:14:53. > :14:57.that. You've got to think of those days, Martin McGuinness came along
:14:58. > :15:01.taking major risks. He decided at one stage in his life that there was
:15:02. > :15:06.no way forward. That's why he went for the ballot box. He talked the
:15:07. > :15:12.leading members of Sinn Fein and other Nationalists into getting them
:15:13. > :15:15.to embrace his way of thinking. I think that's what's happening over
:15:16. > :15:19.the last ten years. Do you think you should be admired for that? I didn't
:15:20. > :15:25.they admired. I think you should be respected for what he's done. He's
:15:26. > :15:29.achieved great things in his career. His had a remarkable career from
:15:30. > :15:34.leaving school at 15 years of age to end up, in my opinion, an
:15:35. > :15:40.international statesman. He is among his community in Derry the Nelson
:15:41. > :15:45.Mandela of Ireland. He has taken this process so far forward, and I'd
:15:46. > :15:51.like to remember that a lot of Unionists have actually admitted
:15:52. > :15:57.that. Lets talk to the audience. I was just going to say, I don't know
:15:58. > :16:04.how I feel. How disgraceful and how disrespectful we Sandy Row bonfires
:16:05. > :16:08.were. Is that of Unionist opinion, that they celebrated the death?
:16:09. > :16:14.Though there were some bonfires that were lit to celebrate the death of
:16:15. > :16:20.Martin McGuinness. I'm not aware of that, but I can... You end up
:16:21. > :16:26.getting into the whole role of what about it? Do you think it's
:16:27. > :16:32.appropriate? If you would let me make my point without interrupting.
:16:33. > :16:36.In any situation, always people who do things that would be better not
:16:37. > :16:40.done. Is it appropriate, though? Simple question, yes or no. Was it
:16:41. > :16:46.an appropriate response to the death of a father, husband and
:16:47. > :16:53.grandfather. Just a minute, Patricia. Is a simple question. It's
:16:54. > :16:57.a simple question, but your approach to this is inappropriate. The point
:16:58. > :17:00.I was making before I was interrupted was that I can remember
:17:01. > :17:03.when Margaret Thatcher 's eye. There were people who celebrated with
:17:04. > :17:08.bonfires. Though these things do happen. Two wrong state make it
:17:09. > :17:18.right. It's a simple question. THEY TALK OVER EACH OTHER
:17:19. > :17:26.Am I doing a job for you here... APPLAUSE
:17:27. > :17:30.You can play to the audience all you want. It's disrespectful to victims,
:17:31. > :17:35.to anybody. The truth of the matter is I wouldn't be doing it, I think
:17:36. > :17:39.it's wrong. But it has happened in the past. You would condemn it?
:17:40. > :17:44.These things shouldn't happen. For Margaret Thatcher, or anybody else.
:17:45. > :17:47.It's wrong and that's my view. If you had given me the chance to
:17:48. > :17:54.speak, I could have said that right at the beginning. If you want to
:17:55. > :17:57.come back, go ahead. You, go ahead. Nelson, the same person who these
:17:58. > :18:03.bonfires were lit for actually condemned and said bad things about
:18:04. > :18:06.any bonfires lit on Margaret Thatcher's death. That may well be.
:18:07. > :18:13.I have no knowledge about, to be honest. Go-ahead. I was just going
:18:14. > :18:19.to say that I agree with this lad here that Martin McGuinness in fact
:18:20. > :18:25.condemned people eulogising Margaret Thatcher's death. I think that the
:18:26. > :18:34.point the gentleman made earlier on about Martin McGuinness, I don't
:18:35. > :18:40.think... He never denied his past. As Ian Paisley Junior, whom I think
:18:41. > :18:46.a lot of members of the DUP could take a lead from, I think he was
:18:47. > :18:49.very respectful, very measured. Martin McGuinness was? No, Ian
:18:50. > :18:59.Paisley Junior. Speaking about Martin McGuinness. He said it wasn't
:19:00. > :19:04.about a person's past. It was where they are now. And Martin McGuinness
:19:05. > :19:09.has committed over 20 years to mainstream political thinking. And
:19:10. > :19:21.he brought people along, as Tony Blair said. He brought people along.
:19:22. > :19:28.Mrs Foster. Should Arlene Foster go to Martin McGuinness's tunable? She
:19:29. > :19:31.should. She should go because she was the joint first Deputy Minister
:19:32. > :19:36.with Martin McGuinness. Today instalment I thought she spoke very
:19:37. > :19:41.well. Do you think she should go, Austin? As leader of unionism, as
:19:42. > :19:46.the First Minister, I think she should go. If there was political
:19:47. > :19:51.trappers, I think that might be extremely difficult for her. I don't
:19:52. > :19:54.know if there is going to be paramilitary trappers, I'm not aware
:19:55. > :19:58.of that. If there wasn't, I don't see any reason why she shouldn't go.
:19:59. > :20:04.We have no indication that one will be any trappings. There was an
:20:05. > :20:08.article that there will not be. So I don't think that is any stumbling
:20:09. > :20:13.block. I think Arlene Foster, Austin is absolutely right. She should lead
:20:14. > :20:17.by example as the former First Minister, as the leader of the
:20:18. > :20:21.largest party. And as Martin McGuinness's leader in government, I
:20:22. > :20:25.think she ought to go. I think it would create a very positive sense
:20:26. > :20:29.of goodwill in the current talks process if she did. Should Arlene
:20:30. > :20:35.Foster go to the funeral tomorrow? Well, talking about hope, I entirely
:20:36. > :20:40.agree. As soon as Austin said about forgiving the past, I couldn't be...
:20:41. > :20:45.Someone who is too long to have lived through the -- as someone who
:20:46. > :20:50.is too young to have lived through the Troubles, that's remarkable to
:20:51. > :20:54.me. I think although we have two C Martin McGuinness as someone who did
:20:55. > :20:57.try to take the gun out of politics, was also having held one himself. To
:20:58. > :21:03.say this and to savour both views are being held imbalance does give
:21:04. > :21:09.me hope as a young person in Northern Ireland. And I think seeing
:21:10. > :21:12.Arlene Foster there at the funeral would be entirely appropriate. It
:21:13. > :21:18.shows the balance of the two parties now. The DUP are still in a
:21:19. > :21:22.position. The public position at the moment is that they are undecided.
:21:23. > :21:26.They're thinking about Arlene Foster going, or not going and are making
:21:27. > :21:36.up their mind. What would it mean to you if she meant? Good or bad, what
:21:37. > :21:38.do you think? Where would we be ten years ago if Martin McGuinness
:21:39. > :21:45.didn't stand up for the people of Ireland and get this peace process
:21:46. > :21:47.going? Can you understand, Patricia, you're a former victims
:21:48. > :21:52.commissioner, why Arlene Foster would not possibly want to go to the
:21:53. > :21:57.funeral of a man who led an organisation which tried to kill her
:21:58. > :22:01.father? Absolutely. Of course I can understand. That's a natural and
:22:02. > :22:07.human reaction. But the sad and unfortunate truth is that we all do
:22:08. > :22:12.things... Let me start that again. It's not sad, nor unfortunate. But
:22:13. > :22:15.we are in a process of building trust and peace, and coming to a
:22:16. > :22:20.sense of reconciliation within our communities. Martin McGuinness went
:22:21. > :22:25.to Windsor Castle and shook the hand of the Commander in Chief of the
:22:26. > :22:29.British Army that has killed 14 citizens, 14 of his friends and
:22:30. > :22:34.neighbours on Bloody Sunday. That was a huge gesture from Martin
:22:35. > :22:37.McGuinness to make. It should be reciprocated. For Arlene Foster to
:22:38. > :22:41.do something of this nature, to go to the funeral, that is a huge
:22:42. > :22:49.gesture of reconciliation and are trying to put the past... Trying to
:22:50. > :22:54.reconcile our past with one another. Lady in the glasses, go ahead. I
:22:55. > :22:57.want to say that by taking the position she has taken politically,
:22:58. > :23:05.I think she has a responsibility to go to one of her closest colleague's
:23:06. > :23:14.tunable. -- closest colleagues peel funeral. What does that say about
:23:15. > :23:18.her father? She has shown commitment to Northern Ireland by taking that
:23:19. > :23:23.on. But that comes out of her past. Her interest in politics comes out
:23:24. > :23:27.of her personal experience. But the commitment she has made, she really
:23:28. > :23:32.has a responsibility to go. Arthur, do you think she should go?
:23:33. > :23:36.Absolutely. It would do her no harm whatsoever. I think it's very
:23:37. > :23:40.important that she comes. After all, former President Clinton will be
:23:41. > :23:42.there. Mr Blair will be there. The Catholic statement have released a
:23:43. > :23:50.statement saying there will be no paramilitary trappings. What message
:23:51. > :23:54.do you think it would send out if essentially the leader of unionism
:23:55. > :23:59.went? I think it's very important because it would send out a message
:24:00. > :24:02.that politics is not dead. I think it's a situation where they would
:24:03. > :24:09.appreciate what's happened in Derry. We have a grieving family and
:24:10. > :24:13.community. A man is going to be put to rest after doing so much, in
:24:14. > :24:17.their opinion, over the last ten years. We do think in the interest
:24:18. > :24:22.of power-sharing and equality, it's very important that Mrs Foster be
:24:23. > :24:28.present and respectfully present, that is, at his funeral tomorrow.
:24:29. > :24:32.Backing to the audience, front Row. At the end of next week, if she
:24:33. > :24:37.can't even go to the funeral. Is that even possible? How can you
:24:38. > :24:44.share power with somebody for the best part of a decade and then not
:24:45. > :24:49.do that? Because presumably you could argue that going to the
:24:50. > :24:53.funeral of Mr McGuinness would be a very personal gesture from Arlene
:24:54. > :25:00.Foster. She can do business with Sinn Fein, can't she?
:25:01. > :25:09.let me interrupt you. Arlene Foster, and I don't recall if it was today,
:25:10. > :25:12.but I certainly have a statement in which she said she had been in touch
:25:13. > :25:17.with Martin McGuinness during his illness. She has shown great
:25:18. > :25:22.compassion and humanity in doing that and she needs to keep following
:25:23. > :25:30.it up. It is the decent Christian thing to do, to go to the funeral of
:25:31. > :25:35.her colleague. On top of that statement, Arlene Foster is the de
:25:36. > :25:39.facto leader of the community. It has to be a political decisions
:25:40. > :25:46.rather than personal. You have to take the personal out of it. A lot
:25:47. > :25:49.of people would take issue with the president down south going to it but
:25:50. > :25:56.he is the elected head of state. Arlene Foster is the political head
:25:57. > :26:04.of state up here so from a political perspective she probably needs to
:26:05. > :26:09.go. Go ahead. Arlene Foster has to put differences aside to lead the
:26:10. > :26:17.country forward and it shows no good will to move forward especially
:26:18. > :26:20.after the death. And go ahead. Martin McGuinness did the hard work
:26:21. > :26:27.in bringing the two parallels closest together and if he went to
:26:28. > :26:32.Ian Paisley's humans funeral itself, and if Arlene Foster didn't call it
:26:33. > :26:41.would widen the gap again. Martin McGuinness has always said his heart
:26:42. > :26:45.is in the Bogside. Our correspondence is an Derry this
:26:46. > :26:52.evening overlooking where the funeral will take place tomorrow.
:26:53. > :26:56.What is the middle looking like? The mood is pensive and there is a sense
:26:57. > :27:00.of anticipation and it is very quiet on the streets behind me but the
:27:01. > :27:06.picture was very diffident earlier this evening when hundreds filed
:27:07. > :27:10.through to the McGuinness family home and it was the same yesterday
:27:11. > :27:15.and it gives you a sense of the scale of the numbers we're talking
:27:16. > :27:20.about. Mobile signs around the corrected on the outskirts of the
:27:21. > :27:24.city directing the traffic. We expect the signs to be in place
:27:25. > :27:28.tomorrow because thousands are expected to descend tomorrow but it
:27:29. > :27:33.is sure to be one of the biggest funerals the city has ever
:27:34. > :27:40.witnessed. And any indication yet as to who will go to the funeral? We
:27:41. > :27:43.already know the former American President Bill Clinton will be there
:27:44. > :27:52.and the Irish president Michael Higgins will be in attendance as
:27:53. > :27:56.well the Taoiseach. We know Mike Nesbitt, the Ulster union as, and
:27:57. > :28:00.the other political leaders in Stormont, but still no official word
:28:01. > :28:04.as to whether or not Arlene Foster will be there, but the feeling
:28:05. > :28:07.tonight is that Arlene Foster will be in attendance tomorrow because a
:28:08. > :28:13.lot of people are looking to her speech today and her tribute as in a
:28:14. > :28:17.sense clearing the way for her attendance because people will find
:28:18. > :28:23.it very strange if she said what she said today and didn't show up at the
:28:24. > :28:26.funeral tomorrow afternoon, and a lot of people also take the view
:28:27. > :28:33.that it will set the right tone for the negotiations being had at
:28:34. > :28:39.Stormont. Another couple of comments from the audience. Go ahead. I was
:28:40. > :28:43.going to say that you have to remember Martin shook hands with the
:28:44. > :28:48.Queen which was a massive symbol of hope and the least Arlene Foster
:28:49. > :28:51.could do it attend the funeral. Certainly the vast majority of
:28:52. > :29:00.people I have gone to in this audience feels that she should go.
:29:01. > :29:03.Absolutely. Interesting. I want to point out that they were able to go
:29:04. > :29:08.to the funeral of someone deeply involved with the UVF so why not
:29:09. > :29:12.someone who has done much for the peace process. What would it say
:29:13. > :29:16.symbolically to US she went? It would see the recognised what he did
:29:17. > :29:23.for the peace process and he has done a lot recently and they should
:29:24. > :29:28.recognise that. The Queen sent the message to Martin's family giving
:29:29. > :29:36.condolences. What has Arlene Foster got to lose? What is the problem
:29:37. > :29:42.with are showing up to a funeral? As we conclude this part of the
:29:43. > :29:48.programme, we will start with you. How would you sum up Martin
:29:49. > :29:57.McGuinness? I would sum him up as a great leader, one who has played an
:29:58. > :30:02.important role in removing guns from politics. I think he leaves a legacy
:30:03. > :30:09.that future generations will not fear getting blown up, they move on
:30:10. > :30:16.with a good power-sharing assembly with equal rights the priority. We
:30:17. > :30:22.cannot deny the good that Martin McGuinness dead in the last number
:30:23. > :30:29.of years. I feel we must not and cannot be naive the fact that he
:30:30. > :30:32.went to his grave with a lot of secrets particularly in relation to
:30:33. > :30:38.the Frank Hegarty case and others and we should look at the legacy in
:30:39. > :30:42.totality and not forget the past because there are people today are
:30:43. > :30:47.with the past. We must also look at the last few years and take it in
:30:48. > :30:51.conjunction with everything else and take Martin McGuinness's legacy in
:30:52. > :30:56.its totality. How would you sum up Martin McGuinness? Clearly he played
:30:57. > :31:01.a very significant role in Northern Irish political life over the last
:31:02. > :31:05.few years. There is that other part of the story and there are tonight
:31:06. > :31:13.people who are still hurting because of the activities of the Provisional
:31:14. > :31:20.IRA. Bloody Friday, Donegal Street, the atrocities already mentioned,
:31:21. > :31:23.those are an important part of the story, and it would be a tragedy if
:31:24. > :31:30.the victims has suffered as a result of those incidents and atrocities
:31:31. > :31:33.were to be ignored and marginalised. They need to be very much in our
:31:34. > :31:45.thoughts and focus tonight. Patricia. How would I sum up Martin
:31:46. > :31:49.McGuinness? As a devoted husband and father, a very proud grandfather and
:31:50. > :31:57.fishermen, loving dog walk around for my part a good friend. Someone
:31:58. > :32:03.who supported my family in difficult times and I will remember his
:32:04. > :32:06.kindness and compassion. At 2pm tomorrow the funeral mass for the
:32:07. > :32:12.late Martin McGuinness will be celebrated in Saint Columbus Church.
:32:13. > :32:27.Please give our panel a round of applause. Right. Let's move on
:32:28. > :32:31.tonight. The NSPCC has reported recently that the numbers of people
:32:32. > :32:35.recorded as an possession of child abuse images has gone up by 70% in
:32:36. > :32:40.Northern Ireland in the last year alone. However, one of the most
:32:41. > :32:44.senior police officers and UK has said that because of a lack of
:32:45. > :32:48.resources we should be not be prosecuting all those who view child
:32:49. > :32:53.abuse images and those not judged to pose a physical risk should be
:32:54. > :32:58.arrested and given a caution and rehabilitation instead. Maybe you
:32:59. > :33:00.find that abhorrent, they thought we would not be aggressively going
:33:01. > :33:03.after every single person who chooses to exploit and a damaged
:33:04. > :33:08.children by watching these images for sexual gratification. We will
:33:09. > :33:11.debate that in a moment but first I want you to meet a group who say
:33:12. > :33:17.they are doing some of the police's work for them. They are posing
:33:18. > :33:18.online for children to smoke the paedophiles out and then they
:33:19. > :33:32.confront them. Can I have a word with you please? I
:33:33. > :33:39.can tell you at this point of time you are being detained. For planning
:33:40. > :33:47.to meet a 13-year-old girl called Jessica, yes? No comment. That's
:33:48. > :33:53.fine. Do you think it's acceptable to be doing what you've been doing?
:33:54. > :34:08.You know she was 13? What about your five friends? They
:34:09. > :34:21.wanted to come and have sex with this child? The 13-year-old girl.
:34:22. > :34:32.Yes? He was coming to meet her round was going to be sticking his hand up
:34:33. > :34:39.her dress. That man was subsequently convicted and the footage was shot
:34:40. > :34:45.by the vigilantes themselves. They came to Belfast to explain to me why
:34:46. > :34:50.they spend their time hunting paedophiles, you may find some of
:34:51. > :34:54.this disturbing. Basically, we go online and create profiles of young
:34:55. > :35:03.males and females on a wide range of social media websites. We remind
:35:04. > :35:09.them of the age and that they get sick shall we will attend the
:35:10. > :35:14.meeting. I am trying to understand if you are in trapping people who
:35:15. > :35:18.would not otherwise do this. We are not really in trapping people. They
:35:19. > :35:23.come to us and that is their choice to become sexual and their choice to
:35:24. > :35:27.top to that child. It is their choice to do run-up to the meeting
:35:28. > :35:32.place. What do you say to them when you meet them? We phoned the police
:35:33. > :35:40.and once we know the unit has been dispatched then we go over and
:35:41. > :35:44.basically approached them about their behaviour and what they have
:35:45. > :35:50.been doing online. What gives you the right to do this? We are not the
:35:51. > :35:52.police, we are just exercising our right as citizens and we see the
:35:53. > :35:56.problem with government not giving enough money to the police to be
:35:57. > :36:01.able to do this so you have to be the change that you want to see in
:36:02. > :36:07.society. But you are suggesting to me that this is so prolific that
:36:08. > :36:12.every single time you try this, there are many people attempting to
:36:13. > :36:20.groom children. That happens on a regular basis. What is regular, not
:36:21. > :36:24.every time you go on? Yes, we get messages every time we go on. And
:36:25. > :36:33.how quickly after you post to the comment? Ten seconds. It couldn't be
:36:34. > :36:37.that prolific! It is pretty bad. As soon as you go on, it is just
:36:38. > :36:42.message after message and I have an application on my phone with a good
:36:43. > :36:50.30 people chatting. A good 30, 40 people. Chatting to children? What
:36:51. > :36:56.they think is a child. You have that in your pocket now? Can you sure
:36:57. > :37:00.what are some of the conversation, what age do they think they are
:37:01. > :37:08.talking to? This one thinks he is talking to a 14-year-old. And what
:37:09. > :37:13.is he saying? This is further down, just normal conversation, do you
:37:14. > :37:17.want to be my girlfriend? I like how old you are and I promise I won't
:37:18. > :37:23.tell if you don't. I could get in lots of trouble. And that is
:37:24. > :37:31.happening right now? Yes, just over the last few days. Wish you were
:37:32. > :37:41.here, I would love to kiss you, I am being naughty. He said about how it
:37:42. > :37:50.would feel to touch you. I said, really? He said, is it bad that I
:37:51. > :37:56.think about that? And I said I don't know. He said would you touch
:37:57. > :37:58.yourself to start with? And what will you then do next with that
:37:59. > :38:11.person? We will go and confront him. It is just shocking, horribly
:38:12. > :38:15.disgusting. I realise there would be anyone in the studio tonight or
:38:16. > :38:20.indeed at home who want have been shocked by that but let's remember
:38:21. > :38:24.what our debate is tonight. Chief Constable Simon Bailey, one of most
:38:25. > :38:31.senior police officers in the area of child protection in the UK, has
:38:32. > :38:35.said that we should not prosecute everyone who they believe are
:38:36. > :38:40.viewing child abuse images online. That means people downloading child
:38:41. > :38:44.abuse imagery. Those who are not judged to pose a physical risk
:38:45. > :38:50.should be arrested and given a caution and they instead. Let's just
:38:51. > :38:55.get your immediate reaction. I think he has shaped the message in a very
:38:56. > :38:59.poor away. If he is saying there are too many she should be demanding a
:39:00. > :39:03.greater level of investment in fender Management but that is
:39:04. > :39:08.endemic of the fight, and I say this as a former police officer myself,
:39:09. > :39:12.policing in England most definitely has been politically neutered, so
:39:13. > :39:15.they won't commit and demand what they need from government but will
:39:16. > :39:21.simply try to divert the conversation in a way they feel is
:39:22. > :39:25.clever, but it is not. We are now concentrating on this instead of
:39:26. > :39:30.focusing on victims and providing support. But what about what he is
:39:31. > :39:34.saying is that if the RSS does not posing a risk of going out and
:39:35. > :39:37.physically harming a child, prioritise the these authors to
:39:38. > :39:41.those who are wanting to meet up with children. What he actually said
:39:42. > :39:47.was that it is someone who has looked at a low-level image. Some of
:39:48. > :39:50.the worst offenders get off looking at child care catalogue so we have
:39:51. > :39:53.to be careful. We have to be careful. Where someone has been
:39:54. > :39:57.identified and held to account they will be coming back out so there has
:39:58. > :40:01.to be a mechanism to manage that. Managing the risk is one thing but
:40:02. > :40:04.talking in terms with it is something really need therapy is
:40:05. > :40:09.sending the wrong message and will not do terry predator from going
:40:10. > :40:12.online tonight. The thought we are going to commit resources and track
:40:13. > :40:14.them down regardless is going to the terror of them and by others to seek
:40:15. > :40:22.different avenues. I agree with what Jim is saying, we
:40:23. > :40:31.need to have a different approach to dealing with this stuff. You mean by
:40:32. > :40:34.Chief Constable? Yes, I do. We need a multifaceted approach. We simply
:40:35. > :40:38.can't be simply responding to what there. We have do have a
:40:39. > :40:43.preventative measure. Why can't we go after every single person,
:40:44. > :40:47.paedophile is actually the word, that is looking at images of
:40:48. > :40:50.children? The first thing I would say is that if people are looking at
:40:51. > :40:55.images, they have to be prosecuted under the law. That goes without
:40:56. > :40:59.saying. However, we also have to prevent people from looking at it.
:41:00. > :41:05.We can't rely on a criminal justice response. There has to be more
:41:06. > :41:13.happening up front. The happy bowl -- there has to be more happening.
:41:14. > :41:16.What about those who do not pose a risk of physically abusing a child?
:41:17. > :41:26.In other words, just let them off with Anna caution -- just let them
:41:27. > :41:30.off with a caution? I don't think that, but there are other things we
:41:31. > :41:36.can do in responding to these people than just a criminal justice
:41:37. > :41:39.response. Have you got enough resource to go after every single
:41:40. > :41:45.person in Northern Ireland? I think this has got to be contextualised.
:41:46. > :41:50.In England and Wales, 50% of Crown Court timers dedicated to
:41:51. > :41:58.investigations of this type. That's not where we are in Northern
:41:59. > :42:02.Ireland. The team of the PSNI have protected the resources in this
:42:03. > :42:06.field. To illustrate, we would have carried out around 38-40 searchers
:42:07. > :42:10.looking for sexual abuse imagery that has been downloaded and viewed.
:42:11. > :42:15.In this financial year, and there are a number of days left, but in
:42:16. > :42:19.this financial year we will hit around 140, possibly 150 searches.
:42:20. > :42:26.That shows the level of resource dedicated to this. Is it your
:42:27. > :42:29.understanding that there are thousands of people, they're saying
:42:30. > :42:35.tens of thousands of people, in England, across the water. That
:42:36. > :42:38.thousands of people here every day, do you feel, searching for this type
:42:39. > :42:42.of images? I think those vigilantes came at it from a particular
:42:43. > :42:49.perspective. The first thing I would say is the appropriate agency to
:42:50. > :42:52.safeguard and attack defenders and make people safe in this part of the
:42:53. > :42:56.world is law enforcement, the police. The vigilantes can't do
:42:57. > :43:00.that. They don't gather evidence that is admissible. They may well
:43:01. > :43:03.talk about contacting the police on their way there, but they don't know
:43:04. > :43:07.what else the police already done. So you don't support what they're
:43:08. > :43:11.doing? No. But they're finding paedophiles and handing them over.
:43:12. > :43:15.If they have information, the thing to do is to pass that information on
:43:16. > :43:18.to the police. But they're doing what you are doing, presumably,
:43:19. > :43:23.which is their posing as children to smoke these people out. I'm not
:43:24. > :43:27.going to get into what the police do or don't do, but they shouldn't
:43:28. > :43:30.assume they know exactly what the police are doing. Secondly, what
:43:31. > :43:32.they delay acting in that way is they potentially alert the
:43:33. > :43:39.paedophile offender to their behaviour without a criminal
:43:40. > :43:45.justice. Jim? There are insufficient resources. Since 2012, child abuse
:43:46. > :43:49.investigation has gone up by 80%. Police resources in the UK have gone
:43:50. > :43:55.down by about 30 2000. I don't support vigilantes, but I think they
:43:56. > :44:00.teach us a lesson. We could use volunteers are members of the public
:44:01. > :44:03.to properly recruited, vetted and trained who can go in and volunteer
:44:04. > :44:12.on a Wednesday or Thursday night to do that job. Do you support what.
:44:13. > :44:20.Just -- do you support what Dark Justice do? Know, but people within
:44:21. > :44:23.the community could come in as volunteers, have their character
:44:24. > :44:26.checked, have been properly vetted, and let them come in three or four
:44:27. > :44:29.nights a week to a police station where they will be properly
:44:30. > :44:33.supervised. I'm talking to a number of forces at the moment about how
:44:34. > :44:37.this could be done. Simon Bailey says with pride, we are arresting
:44:38. > :44:43.400 a month. That's less than seven per police force, per month across
:44:44. > :44:48.the country. Lets see what we think. I know you're saying that these
:44:49. > :44:53.people are posing a risk. But if you're not going for people looking
:44:54. > :44:56.at the photos, there should be no deterrent and it should only serve
:44:57. > :45:00.to potentially encourage people to look at these images. I know you are
:45:01. > :45:04.saying they are low risk, but what is to say that by letting you do
:45:05. > :45:09.these things... I'm not saying they're low risk. But before you're
:45:10. > :45:16.saying you don't want to waste the resources. There is the problem with
:45:17. > :45:19.Simon Bailey's message. It starts in the wrong place. The only person who
:45:20. > :45:24.will be happy about the way he framed the messages the paedophiles
:45:25. > :45:28.sitting thinking there is too few of them, they're not going to catch me,
:45:29. > :45:36.and if they do, I'm not well, semi for therapy. I have a 14-year-old
:45:37. > :45:41.daughter. Daily she brings me on social media to men who are trying
:45:42. > :45:48.to send her images of herself nude. Daily, I get these. And the
:45:49. > :45:52.police... Have you reported it to the police? The police have said
:45:53. > :45:59.they don't have enough time. It's getting too much.
:46:00. > :46:03.The police in Northern Ireland have said that? Yass. You are telling the
:46:04. > :46:07.other mother there are paedophiles trying to get access to our
:46:08. > :46:11.daughters, and the police are telling you that they don't have
:46:12. > :46:15.enough time? Yes. You want to respond to that, George Clark. I
:46:16. > :46:20.don't recognise that comment. If the police come forward to the police,
:46:21. > :46:23.we should recognise that. Perhaps to constantly directly. If somebody is
:46:24. > :46:28.attempting to groom a child and asking that child to send an
:46:29. > :46:32.indecent images, that's a matter for us. I'm told there's not enough
:46:33. > :46:39.people, or time. How recently were you told this? A month ago. By a
:46:40. > :46:47.police district in Northern Ireland? Yes. That's shocking, if that's
:46:48. > :46:54.true. I'm not disputing that. I would give you details, but she...
:46:55. > :46:58.Will you share this information with George after the programme?
:46:59. > :47:04.Absolutely. Yes, sir, go ahead. First of all, Dark Justice, I think
:47:05. > :47:13.they're doing a great job. Macro APPLAUSE
:47:14. > :47:17.Second of all, I think we should be doing more for the kids, educating
:47:18. > :47:20.them all. I think they should be able to recognise a situation where
:47:21. > :47:25.they are in danger and we should be doing something like that. Are you
:47:26. > :47:30.not worried about vigilantes essentially setting themselves up as
:47:31. > :47:37.investigators? Yeah, 100%. But you're supporting them doing it? I
:47:38. > :47:40.support what they're doing and the idea, but I also agree that it
:47:41. > :47:43.should be supervised, maybe a police station. It's just that someone is
:47:44. > :47:48.making the effort to go out there and do it. The third thing is to say
:47:49. > :47:58.that if these paedophiles, because they are still paedophiles, aren't
:47:59. > :48:03.posing a physical risk, I think... If there is not an adequate
:48:04. > :48:07.punishment or persecution, it will happen more often and it will lead
:48:08. > :48:10.to worse offences, not just dealing indecent images, they will do worse
:48:11. > :48:14.and worse things. Something does need to be done. But I do think it's
:48:15. > :48:18.the job for the police to take action, and not members of the
:48:19. > :48:23.public. Keirin? I would say something does need to be done. I
:48:24. > :48:26.would go back to the previous gentleman's comments about education
:48:27. > :48:30.and I would say we need to do more education in schools and ingenuity
:48:31. > :48:36.is around what sexual abuse is common parent should be looking out
:48:37. > :48:40.for, so that people know what the warning signs are and what the
:48:41. > :48:43.triggers. And I would also say that while we've been talking a lot about
:48:44. > :48:47.the police tonight, Internet service providers have a role in this.
:48:48. > :48:53.Google, Facebook have a role in this as well. How come they haven't shut
:48:54. > :48:56.a lot of it down, or have they? Can they do more? Facebook is in a
:48:57. > :49:00.different place than it was ten years ago. I went to Facebook ten
:49:01. > :49:03.years ago and have the fight over them putting a button into the
:49:04. > :49:07.environment. They're not where they should be, but their algorithms are
:49:08. > :49:12.better. I've just come from a school tonight and I think education
:49:13. > :49:17.empowering parents, children and teachers is important. But actually
:49:18. > :49:19.the worst sights on Facebook. There are sites online when you can
:49:20. > :49:24.actively talk to strangers, and people are going there. So we get
:49:25. > :49:27.lost in looking. The top five sites that represent a real risk to
:49:28. > :49:32.children on sites that will roll off the tongue of any parent in this
:49:33. > :49:35.room. For my position, we need to begin from an active deterrent where
:49:36. > :49:40.paedophiles go online in fear of being captured. At the minute, that
:49:41. > :49:44.doesn't happen, so we need greater investment in the police. We need to
:49:45. > :49:49.empower local citizens to help. We need stronger offender management
:49:50. > :49:54.once they caught. Do you need more money? For this, in this area. How
:49:55. > :49:58.prolific is it in Northern Ireland? It's difficult to say how prolific
:49:59. > :50:03.it is anywhere, because it's difficult to monitor the Internet.
:50:04. > :50:06.That's a reality. The key point, and we've talked a lot about education,
:50:07. > :50:11.the key point is educating people to come forward to get help when they
:50:12. > :50:15.detect this happening. To be an active parent, to be involved in the
:50:16. > :50:19.circumstances described in coming to you in being able to tell you what
:50:20. > :50:22.has happened. That's important and powerful because that's how we get
:50:23. > :50:24.into those sites and understand what's happening in places other
:50:25. > :50:30.than where we might imagine. But we do know, Simon Bailey has said there
:50:31. > :50:35.were 100,000 people in any given time in the UK downloading indecent
:50:36. > :50:39.images of children. In an exercise in 2012, there were between
:50:40. > :50:45.50-60,000. In England and Wales of 2014 reconvicted the same number of
:50:46. > :50:50.people for drunken driving. The numbers aren't too big. It's got to
:50:51. > :50:53.be about focus, investment and priorities. Until we treat those
:50:54. > :50:57.people that view images, and use them to sexually satisfy themselves,
:50:58. > :51:00.because that is what this is about, until we treat them as a real threat
:51:01. > :51:05.and not a novelty on the Internet, we've got a problem because those
:51:06. > :51:10.are the people that are working in every walk of life. If you look at
:51:11. > :51:13.people in the recent abuse cases, we could have saved many of them years
:51:14. > :51:17.ago if we would have had the technology we have today. I think
:51:18. > :51:20.it's important to come back and say what Simon Bailey is saying is he
:51:21. > :51:24.starting a debate in English and Welsh context. He starting a
:51:25. > :51:27.discussion about the appropriate way to respond. It's not the way we're
:51:28. > :51:32.responding in Northern Ireland this moment in time. It's not the way we
:51:33. > :51:37.propose to respond. We intend to continue along the line of rest,
:51:38. > :51:41.investigation. At this moment in time, police policy will continue.
:51:42. > :51:46.Thank you, very much indeed. Ladies and gentlemen, give our panellists a
:51:47. > :51:50.round of applause. If you've been affected by any of
:51:51. > :51:53.the issues raised in tonight's programme, details of organisations
:51:54. > :51:55.offering information and support with sexual abuse are available at
:51:56. > :52:23.our website. Right, now, my next guest was once
:52:24. > :52:28.part of one of the most successful girl groups of all time. The Spice
:52:29. > :52:32.Girls! She has gone on to have a solo career under her own name
:52:33. > :52:35.according to macro number one hits. She has recently released their
:52:36. > :52:40.seventh album. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Mel C.
:52:41. > :52:48.APPLAUSE Hello, there. Hallow! Lovely to see
:52:49. > :52:52.you. Lovely to see you. We don't have much time, such is the nature
:52:53. > :52:57.of a live show. But you are going to sing for us tonight. I am! I wanted
:52:58. > :53:05.to know is life better out of the big group now, or is it the same? At
:53:06. > :53:09.this time in my life, it's better. Everything I did with the Spice
:53:10. > :53:14.Girls was amazing. I think it's very much a young person's game. We had
:53:15. > :53:18.no responsibilities, we went around the world. Our lives were our own.
:53:19. > :53:25.But I have a family now, so being able to do things... We saw the
:53:26. > :53:31.things that One Direction were under. Are you under that pressure?
:53:32. > :53:34.It was incredible, it was fairy tale. But there was a dark side.
:53:35. > :53:39.What's that, earning millions? That is one of the wonderful things, but
:53:40. > :53:42.you are away from your home and family. He read people'sopinions
:53:43. > :53:48.about you, which we all do these days. But back then... Surely you're
:53:49. > :53:52.bigger than that when you're in one of the most powerful groups in the
:53:53. > :53:56.world? You don't read Twitter and Facebook and care, do you? That's
:53:57. > :54:01.why I feel for bands like One Direction, because there were no
:54:02. > :54:05.escape. At least it was only the tabloids being nasty about Austen.
:54:06. > :54:10.But we were young. You have a dream to be a pop star, but in your early
:54:11. > :54:14.20s you don't know who you are. What is life like now? I think it's
:54:15. > :54:18.pretty normal. I've got a little girl, she's incredible. I love to do
:54:19. > :54:22.the school will have a normal life with her. But I still have the
:54:23. > :54:26.opportunity to do music and play live. I'm back on the 12th of April
:54:27. > :54:30.playing Mandela Hall and I'm in Dublin on the 13th. It's just
:54:31. > :54:35.wonderful to still be making music, still going out and playing live.
:54:36. > :54:38.Best of both worlds. My goodness, think of some of the people you've
:54:39. > :54:44.met. Nelson Mandela being one of them.
:54:45. > :54:52.Compare that to picking your kid up on the school run. How wonderful to
:54:53. > :54:58.be able to do both. That is a lovely thing to say. Tell us about this new
:54:59. > :55:02.album? It is quite different, more electronic than anything in the
:55:03. > :55:07.past, still very much a pop record than my voice is familiar to
:55:08. > :55:13.millions but it is nice to do a new single. This is a lovely song you
:55:14. > :55:25.are going to sing and it is ending our series. Very excited to have an
:55:26. > :55:28.opportunity to say thanks to you, and I mean that from watching the
:55:29. > :55:36.CDs and all we have done over the years. We will be back in the autumn
:55:37. > :55:47.but they are back tomorrow morning, the television might be off. It is
:55:48. > :55:59.9am and the Nolan show with a big show today. They have to uphold our
:56:00. > :56:09.laws. You have to tell me what you mean by that. I am incensed. Use
:56:10. > :56:11.near a bit over his car? It is the chance to tell me at home what you
:56:12. > :56:30.have to say. Whatever you think, see it on the
:56:31. > :56:36.Nolan Show. That is it for this evening and the series and playing
:56:37. > :56:57.us out, the former Spice Girl Mel C with this beautiful song.
:56:58. > :57:27.Don't give up, don't lose faith. Time has faded and time goes on. Can
:57:28. > :57:42.we hold on? Hold on. Hold this love. Hold this love.
:57:43. > :57:57.Questions answered, darkness clears. Eyes wide open, facing all our
:57:58. > :58:06.fears. Hope is born. Can we stayed together and welcome a new dawn. I
:58:07. > :58:14.don't want to walk, I don't want to walk away! I don't want to walk. I
:58:15. > :58:27.want you to stay. Can we hold on? Hold on, hold on. Hold on. Hold on
:58:28. > :58:49.to this. Can we hold on? Hold on? Hold onto this love.
:58:50. > :59:05.I never wanted to let you down. So the conversation circles around. We
:59:06. > :59:09.could leave it all and walk away. The star of social, I am asking you
:59:10. > :59:26.to hold onto this love. Hold on, hold on. Hold on to this love. Can
:59:27. > :59:42.we hold on? Hold on. Hold onto this love.
:59:43. > :59:53.Can we hold on? Hold on? Hold on, hold onto love.