Who's Watching the Detectives?

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:00:11. > :00:17.The Police Watchdog's just been handed the task of investigating

:00:17. > :00:21.one of the biggest policing scandals in British history.

:00:21. > :00:25.Hillsborough. And all that means is still strongly with me 23 years

:00:25. > :00:29.later. We cannot allow a police force to behave like this ever

:00:29. > :00:33.again. But is the Independent Police

:00:33. > :00:39.Complaints Commission independent enough to do its job? When you look

:00:39. > :00:42.at the number of ex-police officers that are operating there, you do

:00:42. > :00:47.wonder whether the canteen feels like a police canteen, it's almost

:00:47. > :00:50.like an old boys' club. Tonight, Panorama investigates the case

:00:50. > :01:00.where is police have been exonerated despite evidence of

:01:00. > :01:05.serious wrongdoing. And we hear from families who've been failed.

:01:05. > :01:12.Why should anyone have any faith or confidence in a body that behaves

:01:12. > :01:16.in this manner? It's disgusting. The IPCC investigating were sitting

:01:16. > :01:26.behind us and every now and again we'd look at him and think, shame

:01:26. > :01:36.

:01:36. > :01:42.August last year and Tottenham in North London was ablaze. Over four

:01:42. > :01:47.days of mayhem and rioting, police are attacked and businesses looted.

:01:47. > :01:51.The trigger was the shooting of a young black man by police.

:01:51. > :01:56.As with all police shootings, the watchdog, the Independent Police

:01:56. > :02:03.Complaints Commission, or the IPCC, launched an investigation. It would

:02:03. > :02:12.get off to a disUSA rous start. IPCC has admitted it may have

:02:12. > :02:15.misled journalists into believing that the man may have fired at them.

:02:15. > :02:19.The information may have misled a journalists and ultimately the

:02:19. > :02:23.family as well. This mistake did lit toll dampen the rising tensions

:02:23. > :02:28.as a result of Mark Duggan's shooting. The worst riots seen in

:02:29. > :02:31.Britain for a generation followed. Duggan is one of a number of high-

:02:31. > :02:36.profile cases which have contributed to a breakdown in

:02:36. > :02:40.confidence in the IPCC. Among them, the heavy criticism the Commission

:02:40. > :02:44.received in 2009 during the early stages of its inquiry into the

:02:44. > :02:50.death of newspaper vendor, Ian Tomlinson.

:02:50. > :02:55.The local MP for Tottenham, David Lammy, has lost faith in the IPCC,

:02:55. > :02:58.since he watched his community go up in flames. The Commission is

:02:58. > :03:02.still to deliver its final report on the Duggan case, but he believes

:03:02. > :03:07.the body's earlier failures contributed to the violence. What

:03:07. > :03:10.you needed was a sense that someone was going to investigate and

:03:10. > :03:13.importantly, that that investigation was on the side of

:03:13. > :03:19.the people, getting to the truth quickly.

:03:19. > :03:24.On this occasion, they put out very quickly information that was wrong

:03:24. > :03:28.and actually was fatally wrong. I think the test of a really

:03:28. > :03:33.powerful watchdog is how it copes under pressure and again and again

:03:33. > :03:37.and again, when you need that independence, the IPCC has not kept

:03:37. > :03:43.the faith of families, it's not kept the faith of communities, it's

:03:43. > :03:48.not kept the faith of the country. The point of creating the IPCC in

:03:48. > :03:51.2040 was to replace the discredited Police Complaints Authority, a body

:03:51. > :03:57.considered too weak to hold the police to account.

:03:57. > :04:01.With a budget of around �34 million and 371 staff, the IPCC covers

:04:01. > :04:05.England and Wales. It handled more than 6,000 appeals

:04:05. > :04:08.last year from people unhappy about how police dealt with their

:04:08. > :04:12.complaint. But crucially, it has the power to

:04:12. > :04:17.launch its own investigations into the most serious and high profile

:04:17. > :04:21.cases like deaths in custody. In its first eight years, with

:04:21. > :04:27.around 300 independent investigations, it has had some

:04:27. > :04:30.notable successes. In the Rachel Nickell murder, the IPCC's 2010

:04:30. > :04:33.investigation uncover add catalogue of errors by the Metropolitan

:04:33. > :04:38.Police. Cleveland Chief Constable, Sean

:04:38. > :04:43.Price, was sacked last months after the IPCC found he'd bully and

:04:43. > :04:46.intimidated staff. Earlier this year, the Commission found senior

:04:46. > :04:48.officers from Scotland Yard has shown poor judgment in

:04:48. > :04:54.relationships with News of the World journalists.

:04:54. > :05:00.I think that it's significantly better than the Police Complaints

:05:00. > :05:05.Authority. I think immediately on setting up the IPCC, it was

:05:05. > :05:11.incredibly successful at creating new confidence amongst those people

:05:11. > :05:17.who were involved in supporting families, of people who'd been

:05:17. > :05:21.injured or killed, the lawyer community and the police. It's

:05:21. > :05:24.crucial the IPCC is about seeking the truth and making decisions only

:05:24. > :05:27.on the basis of evidence and in a sense no-one being given the

:05:27. > :05:32.benefit of the doubt one way or another.

:05:32. > :05:35.But if the critics are right, something has gone badly wrong

:05:35. > :05:40.along the way. It isn't easy investigating the

:05:40. > :05:43.police. But in ten years as a reporter at the BBC, make

:05:43. > :05:49.programmes about police racism and corruption, I've learned how

:05:49. > :05:56.crucial it is to have a powerful watchdog. So we've decided to focus

:05:56. > :06:03.our investigation on one of the IPCC's most important functions -

:06:03. > :06:08.death in custody inquiries. I don't think they had any choice

:06:08. > :06:14.but to investigate Sean's death. We were left with no choice because we

:06:14. > :06:18.weren't seeing an investigation happen.

:06:18. > :06:23.He was a real protective big brother. We had a really good time,

:06:23. > :06:27.you know. We used to go to jazz clubs. He was a dancer. We really

:06:27. > :06:35.admired him for that. He was a brilliant, brilliant dancer. Sean

:06:35. > :06:41.Rigg was also making a name for himself in London as a rapper. But

:06:41. > :06:51.off stage, Sean was fighting a private battle. He'd suffered from

:06:51. > :06:52.

:06:52. > :06:55.schizophrenia since he was 20. In 2008, Sean was gripped by a

:06:55. > :07:05.psychotic episode. Staff at the supported hostel in Brixton where

:07:05. > :07:40.

:07:40. > :07:44.he lived were so concerned, they Despite increasingly desperate

:07:44. > :07:48.calls from hostel staff, police refused to attend.

:07:48. > :07:52.Sean leaves the hostel. More emergency calls are made by the

:07:52. > :07:57.public about his increasingly bizarre behaviour on the street.

:07:57. > :08:03.He's doing karate kicks. He tried to drop kick him into the bushes.

:08:03. > :08:08.This time the police respond and arrest him. In less than two hours,

:08:08. > :08:13.this physically fit 40-year-old would die surrounded by officers on

:08:13. > :08:18.the floor. After a two-year investigation, the

:08:18. > :08:23.IPCC handed the family its conclusions.

:08:23. > :08:31.The IPCC report wasn't worth the paper it was printed on. They found

:08:31. > :08:37.there was no case to answer, that the police did no wrong and that

:08:37. > :08:42.the police officers acted impeccably.

:08:42. > :08:46.From early on, the Riggs sensed the IPCC would not deliver the answers

:08:46. > :08:51.they craved. So the family started their own investigation into the

:08:51. > :09:00.case, painstakingly analysing hours of CCTV, paperwork and statements.

:09:00. > :09:05.What they found shocked them. We're looking at the CCTV when the

:09:05. > :09:08.van arrives with the arresting officers and Sean is at the back of

:09:08. > :09:13.the van. Along with their brother, Wayne, the Riggs piece together

:09:13. > :09:20.Sean's final movements, uncovering a series of allegations about the

:09:20. > :09:30.police' actions, missed by the IPCC. Custody sergeant, Paul White, had

:09:30. > :09:42.

:09:42. > :09:47.claimed to the IPCC that he'd been What's the significance of this?

:09:47. > :09:52.The significance of that is that Sergeant White lied when he said he

:09:52. > :09:57.went to the van but he doesn't leave the catered area and he

:09:57. > :10:01.doesn't go to the van. The family believe this was a lie designed to

:10:01. > :10:05.hide the fact Sean was seriously ill at this point and in need of

:10:05. > :10:14.urgent medical attention. This is the time when Sean is taken

:10:14. > :10:21.from the van. He's immediately on the floor. Flat out. Do you think

:10:21. > :10:26.that at this point an ambulance had been called -- that had an

:10:26. > :10:36.ambulance been called his life would have been saved? Absolutely.

:10:36. > :10:43.

:10:43. > :10:48.At this point Sean doesn't move at "He's feigning unconsciousness and

:10:48. > :10:54.fitting?"? Yes. He's clearly in a terrible way. Sean didn't stand a

:10:54. > :10:58.chance with any of them. The IPCC concluded that none of this was

:10:58. > :11:01.inappropriate or that they didn't conclude that they hadn't acted

:11:01. > :11:05.fast enough? No, they didn't. They found quite the opposite. But in

:11:05. > :11:09.July this year, a coroner's inquest into Sean's death returned a

:11:09. > :11:13.damning verdict on the police and the IPCC.

:11:13. > :11:18.The jury found that police had more than minimally contributed to

:11:18. > :11:24.Sean's death by using unsuitable and unnecessary force. The key had

:11:24. > :11:27.been the family's discovery that these photos were taken four

:11:27. > :11:35.minutes apart, fatally undermining the police account that they'd only

:11:35. > :11:38.restrained Sean for a few seconds. The IPCC had this within hours of

:11:38. > :11:46.arriving at Brixton police station on the night. The evidence was

:11:46. > :11:52.always available. How does that make you feel? The IPCC are not fit

:11:52. > :11:56.for purpose. The jury's verdict was clear - they

:11:56. > :12:02.didn't believe the police. A purgery investigation is now

:12:02. > :12:05.under way and in an unprecedented move, the IPCC has announced an

:12:05. > :12:09.exterm inquiry into their own handling of the case. But how is it

:12:09. > :12:14.that the jury was able to reach such a damning verdict based on

:12:14. > :12:23.exactly the same evidence that was available to the IPCC? It begs the

:12:23. > :12:28.question, is the watchdog too close to the police? I wanted to ask John

:12:28. > :12:32.Wadham, the man who helped launch the IPCC, whether it was truly

:12:32. > :12:38.independent. There are people at the IPCC

:12:38. > :12:42.pushing to make it more courageous and there were counter-vaiding

:12:42. > :12:47.forces from outside and elsewhere that were making that more

:12:47. > :12:52.difficult. It's about the confidence that that the IPCC needs

:12:52. > :12:56.to have to make decisions despite the fact that other people will be

:12:56. > :13:00.annoyed with it, despite the fact that the next time it meets the

:13:00. > :13:06.Chief Constable, the Chief Constable will be annoyed, the Home

:13:06. > :13:11.Secretary won't like it, perhaps we weren't as confident in the vision

:13:11. > :13:17.of independence and searching for the truth than perhaps we should

:13:17. > :13:22.have been. The chair of the IPCC, Dame Anne

:13:22. > :13:29.Owers declined to be interviewed but provided a statement saying

:13:29. > :13:32.there were the eIPCC robustly challenged police evidence". She

:13:32. > :13:36.said an expert inquiry was under way to see whether there were

:13:36. > :13:40.lessons to be learned in the Rigg case. Panorama's discovered another

:13:40. > :13:47.case where the IPCC's independence has been called into question, this

:13:47. > :13:51.time in the Thames Valley area. Given how the IPCC have behaved,

:13:51. > :13:57.why should we have any confidence in them? All they've done is wasted

:13:57. > :14:02.what, four years of our lives and they continue to waste our life.

:14:02. > :14:12.Habib Ullah was part of a loving family and a devoted father to two

:14:12. > :14:16.

:14:16. > :14:20.He had a habit. He had been using drugs on and off the four years. It

:14:20. > :14:24.was a managed habit. He had the support strut around him in the

:14:24. > :14:28.family. But it would be drugs that would bring about his final

:14:28. > :14:33.encounter with the police. One evening he and two others were

:14:33. > :14:38.followed by police officers into a car-park. Four Police officers

:14:38. > :14:42.brought into the ground and restrained him after they found him

:14:42. > :14:52.swallowing a small packet of drugs. The struggle ensued which ended

:14:52. > :15:03.

:15:03. > :15:13.with Habib Ullah losing By the time the paramedics got

:15:13. > :15:13.

:15:13. > :15:18.there, he was dead. This meant an IPCC investigation. The family had

:15:18. > :15:22.concerns about the amount of force used. But instead of interviewing

:15:22. > :15:28.the officers involved and putting them under criminal Corsham, the

:15:28. > :15:32.watchdog allowed them to submit their statements and challenged. In

:15:32. > :15:35.March, 2010, two years after his death, the IPCC gave the family

:15:35. > :15:40.their report which cleared the police of any wrongdoing.

:15:40. > :15:43.actually thought that the IPCC had gone and interviewed each of the

:15:43. > :15:47.police officers separately. Through our own work it became apparent

:15:47. > :15:52.that they had allowed the police to confer, sit around comfortably over

:15:52. > :15:56.tea and biscuits, put a story together. Once more it would be an

:15:56. > :16:01.inquest and not the IPCC which would uncover the whole truth.

:16:01. > :16:07.Eight days into the coroner's proceedings, the police story and

:16:07. > :16:10.the IPCC's investigation began to unravel. Under oath, police claimed

:16:10. > :16:14.that they had been told by a police lawyer to remove key passages from

:16:14. > :16:22.their statements that they were preparing for the IPCC

:16:22. > :16:31.investigators. The family believe that the decision to withhold

:16:31. > :16:37.evidence suggesting the police knew his decision -- condition could be

:16:37. > :16:42.life threatening, was designed to throw investigators off the scent.

:16:43. > :16:46.What did you think? Utterly gobsmacked. Disgusted. As was

:16:46. > :16:53.everybody else that was sitting in the public gallery, not least the

:16:53. > :16:56.jury itself. One by one, under intense cross-examination, police

:16:56. > :17:02.officers admitted to removing potentially key evidence from the

:17:02. > :17:08.statements. You are advised by the solicitors to take out the evidence

:17:08. > :17:13.in your statement that you had seen him being gripped by the throat.

:17:13. > :17:17.That is right. I was advised by my solicitor to remove that. What

:17:17. > :17:21.should have happened, right at the outset, there should have been a

:17:21. > :17:24.robust investigation, where the police's evidence was tested in

:17:24. > :17:27.interview conditions and the officers were not invited to

:17:27. > :17:34.prepare statements and send them to the IPCC for later consideration at

:17:34. > :17:40.the inquest. The Police Federation lawyer denies any wrongdoing. The

:17:40. > :17:42.inquest had to be abandoned. Those police officers are now under

:17:42. > :17:46.criminal investigation for alleged manslaughter and the lawyer

:17:46. > :17:52.involved faces allegations of perverting the course of justice.

:17:52. > :17:56.But how could the IPCC have missed something so potentially serious?

:17:56. > :18:02.Panorama can now reveal an internal email sent from the IPCC's Deputy

:18:02. > :18:06.Chair Deborah Glass to the case's lead investigator. Could this give

:18:06. > :18:11.an insight into the way that the IPCC was handling death in custody

:18:11. > :18:17.cases? In her email, Deborah Glass warns that if the police officers

:18:17. > :18:20.were put on notice that they were being investigated, from being very

:18:20. > :18:24.co-operative, police officers might become hostile if they were being

:18:24. > :18:27.treated as suspects in a suspicious death. With the real possibility

:18:27. > :18:32.that in future incidents, police officers would be much more

:18:32. > :18:38.reluctant to co-operate with our investigators. She advises,

:18:38. > :18:42.handling this very carefully if you do not want the barriers to go up.

:18:42. > :18:45.Even though the police officers were later put on notice that they

:18:45. > :18:49.were being investigated, they were never interviewed under criminal

:18:50. > :18:53.court and. This concerned the family so much that they lodged the

:18:54. > :19:03.failed legal attempt to force the IPCC to treat the officers as

:19:04. > :19:05.

:19:05. > :19:09.suspects. Do you want to read this Good grief. OK. Why should it be a

:19:09. > :19:14.matter of the police officers having to co-operate politely? It

:19:14. > :19:18.is a matter of them having to comply, surely? This was the

:19:18. > :19:22.framework of the investigation into Habib Ullah's death. This is from

:19:22. > :19:26.the deputy chair of the IPCC? This is how they want to conduct

:19:26. > :19:34.themselves, so why should anyone have any faith or confidence in a

:19:34. > :19:38.body that behaves in this manner? It is disgusting. The IPCC told us

:19:38. > :19:44.that it had repeatedly asked for powers to compel officers to attend

:19:44. > :19:47.interviews. Regarding the Deborah Glass email, it said that putting

:19:47. > :19:54.officers on notice of investigation earlier in a previous case had led

:19:54. > :20:00.to war wall of silence, but in another case, detailed statements

:20:00. > :20:04.were taken from the police officers. The Sean Rigg case has highlighted

:20:04. > :20:08.major failings, but what about other experiences of the IPCC?

:20:08. > :20:11.Regular surveys show that the majority of the general public has

:20:11. > :20:16.confidence in the body, but are these the right people to be

:20:16. > :20:22.asking? It seemed strange to me that they had never asked those who

:20:22. > :20:29.would have had genuine experience of those that had had an

:20:29. > :20:33.independent IPCC investigation. We decided to do a survey of our own.

:20:33. > :20:39.We tracked down as many families as we could that it had the relative

:20:39. > :20:43.die in an incident involving the police since 2004. -- that had had

:20:43. > :20:50.a relative die. We sent a questionnaire to 20 families and

:20:50. > :20:54.received 15 responses, 75%. The results appeared to be damning. 14

:20:54. > :20:58.out of the 15 respondents said they were dissatisfied or very

:20:58. > :21:03.dissatisfied about investigation into their relative's death. Only

:21:03. > :21:06.one was satisfied. 12 out of 15 said they were dissatisfied or very

:21:06. > :21:12.dissatisfied by the level of professionalism and respect shown

:21:12. > :21:18.by IPCC investigators. Only two out of 15 thought that the

:21:18. > :21:22.investigation was done in a timely fashion. 8 out of nine of the IPCC

:21:22. > :21:28.senior investigators and just under half of their deputies of former

:21:28. > :21:33.police officers. The result is there is a perception that it is

:21:33. > :21:37.the police investigating the police, and how can that be independent?

:21:37. > :21:41.The IPCC is stuffed with former Police officers operating in the

:21:41. > :21:46.IPCC at the very highest levels. You do sometimes wonder whether

:21:46. > :21:51.their canteen feels like a police canteen. It is almost like an old

:21:51. > :21:57.boys' club. Eight years on, you would have expected them to develop

:21:57. > :22:00.their own investigation expertise, their own investigators. The IPCC

:22:00. > :22:05.said that all independent investigations were overseen by the

:22:05. > :22:15.Commissioner of who by law may not have worked for the police. They

:22:15. > :22:16.

:22:16. > :22:24.said that only 40% had been previously employed by the police.

:22:24. > :22:29.What do we want? Justice. Since the IPCC was formed, there have been at

:22:29. > :22:35.250 deaths in police custody. That the most serious cases that the

:22:35. > :22:44.IPCC can investigate. -- those are perhaps the most serious cases.

:22:44. > :22:49.Nobody has ever been convicted for causing such a death. Former Chief

:22:49. > :22:54.Inspector of Prisons Dame and ours was appointed as chair of the IPCC

:22:54. > :22:57.in February this year. The move was welcomed by critics. In the same

:22:57. > :23:01.month, the Commission launched a review into how it handles death in

:23:01. > :23:03.custody investigations, and sitting on the advisory panel will be the

:23:03. > :23:08.human rights barrister who represented the family of Ian

:23:08. > :23:12.Tomlinson. To their credit, in my view, one of the things they have

:23:12. > :23:17.wanted to do is make short that that review include people that

:23:17. > :23:22.have been critical of the IPCC in the past. -- make sure. And people

:23:22. > :23:27.that when representing necklines and interested parties have seen

:23:27. > :23:32.floors in the way the IPCC handles things. The arrival of the chair to

:23:32. > :23:38.the IPCC is a very positive sign. Her track record of making

:23:38. > :23:41.important effective change is very good in public bodies. It is

:23:41. > :23:47.important for those that want to see change to at least give it a

:23:47. > :23:51.chance. There is another issue looming for the IPCC. One of

:23:51. > :23:58.Parliament's most powerful bodies is carrying out the root and branch

:23:58. > :24:02.inquiry into the commission. Today Sean Rigg's family is giving

:24:02. > :24:06.evidence to the Home Affairs Select Committee. What the police officers

:24:06. > :24:14.were saying in the interview and on oath was completely the opposite as

:24:14. > :24:19.to what actually happened. I have absolutelyno IPCC whatsoever. --

:24:19. > :24:23.absolutely no faith. The verdict vindicated the family. It is good

:24:23. > :24:28.to see that they have not just put it in the bottom drawer and they

:24:28. > :24:31.are seeing it through. You have got to have hope. Families have fought

:24:31. > :24:39.for many years to make sure that the complaints commission is

:24:39. > :24:44.independent. We are just seeing it through. But the IPCC is about to

:24:44. > :24:48.come under the spotlight like never before. It has been handed the

:24:48. > :24:53.inquiry into one of the biggest policing scandals in history.

:24:53. > :24:57.Remember the author of the email in the Habib Ullah case? It fell to

:24:57. > :25:01.Deborah Glass to set the terms for the Hillsborough investigation.

:25:01. > :25:06.Since the report was published, the IPCC has been undertaking a

:25:07. > :25:15.thorough review of it. We have also begun to examine the 450,000 pages

:25:15. > :25:20.of evidence. The relatives of the 96 who died, like Becky Sharp, who

:25:20. > :25:25.lost her mother that day, will be watching the IPCC investigation

:25:25. > :25:33.very closely indeed. Hillsborough and all that means is still

:25:33. > :25:43.strongly with me 23 years later. I know it always will be. We cannot

:25:43. > :25:44.

:25:44. > :25:51.allow a police force to behave like this ever again. The word injustice

:25:51. > :25:57.is not adequate to describe what we have been through. The 23 years.

:25:57. > :26:04.The onus is on the IPCC to prove to me and to prove to all the other

:26:04. > :26:12.families and survivors that they can deliver what we so badly need.

:26:12. > :26:15.The ball is in their court. But to our survey. Were the respondents

:26:15. > :26:19.confident that the IPCC was independent enough? More than half

:26:19. > :26:24.so that prior to their involvement with the IPCC they would have been

:26:24. > :26:30.confident that it was independent and impartial. But following their

:26:30. > :26:36.experience, 14 out of 15 are not really or not at all confident the

:26:36. > :26:40.IPCC is independent or impartial. The select committee inquiry is due

:26:40. > :26:45.for publication next month. I went to see its chairman, Keith Vaz, and

:26:45. > :26:52.I showed him the survey results. is shocking about any organisation

:26:52. > :26:56.if you have results of that kind. You would expect at the very least

:26:56. > :27:01.some people to be satisfied at the end of a lengthy process. What

:27:01. > :27:05.should we do with the results of the BBC survey? The IPCC should

:27:05. > :27:09.look at it and act upon it. I would want to know every single comment

:27:09. > :27:13.that was made if I was them. When you are dealing with grieving

:27:13. > :27:18.people, you really have to go beyond the call of duty to help and

:27:18. > :27:23.they have failed to do so. The IPCC said the cases surveyed by the

:27:23. > :27:27.programme were not representative by the Commission's work in general

:27:27. > :27:30.or its current approach. They said they noted the Panorama survey

:27:30. > :27:35.responses and they would explore with the families the reasons for

:27:35. > :27:39.the dissatisfaction as part of their current review. At the moment

:27:39. > :27:43.it does not appear to be fulfilling the obligations and the

:27:43. > :27:48.responsibilities that Parliament placed on it. The chair herself

:27:48. > :27:53.says there are problems with it. Can it cope with Hillsborough? I

:27:53. > :28:00.don't think so at the moment. Unless it has the resources. You

:28:00. > :28:04.cannot cope with 2400 people who you have to investigate one at the

:28:04. > :28:11.same time you have fewer members of staff than work for the

:28:11. > :28:14.Professional Standards Department of the Metropolitan Police. I do

:28:14. > :28:22.not see how they can do it. IPCC says they have a robust track

:28:22. > :28:28.record on corruption and misconduct cases. At Hillsborough will be its

:28:28. > :28:34.biggest test yet. The families of the 96 expect. Others just hope

:28:34. > :28:38.that past mistakes will not be repeated. They are supposed to go

:28:38. > :28:43.in baring teeth in that regard. Isn't that the nature of the IPCC,