0:00:03 > 0:00:06Our abortion laws are being challenged as never before.
0:00:06 > 0:00:10My body! My life! My right to decide!
0:00:10 > 0:00:15200,000 women terminate unwanted pregnancies each year.
0:00:15 > 0:00:19I remember coming out of the clinic and heading back towards my car
0:00:19 > 0:00:22and thinking, huh, that was easy!
0:00:22 > 0:00:26Abortions are being signed off by doctors
0:00:26 > 0:00:28on questionable mental health grounds.
0:00:28 > 0:00:31That's not only immoral, it's also illegal.
0:00:31 > 0:00:34It's a form of perjury.
0:00:34 > 0:00:36Yet, in another part of the UK, women and doctors
0:00:36 > 0:00:38risk being jailed for life.
0:00:38 > 0:00:40I counted up the number of times
0:00:40 > 0:00:43the phone volunteers have put in the notes,
0:00:43 > 0:00:46"She said she'd rather be dead than pregnant."
0:00:46 > 0:00:52Tonight, on Panorama, we ask, is it time to update our abortion laws?
0:01:07 > 0:01:11It's 46 years since abortion was legalised,
0:01:11 > 0:01:13but now it's back in the headlines.
0:01:13 > 0:01:16WHISTLE BLOWS
0:01:19 > 0:01:23My body! My life! My right to decide!
0:01:26 > 0:01:30The pro-life movement has taken its opposition to abortion
0:01:30 > 0:01:33to the doorsteps of clinics in American-style protests.
0:01:34 > 0:01:36Some protesters approach women
0:01:36 > 0:01:39to try to talk them out of having an abortion.
0:01:44 > 0:01:49One prominent group, Abort 67, display graphic images.
0:01:49 > 0:01:52I found them shocking and so do passers-by.
0:02:06 > 0:02:09These images are informing women
0:02:09 > 0:02:12and informing society of what abortion really is.
0:02:13 > 0:02:16They want to defend choice and reproductive rights.
0:02:16 > 0:02:18We are forcing them to defend
0:02:18 > 0:02:22killing innocent and defenceless, unborn human beings.
0:02:22 > 0:02:27We're trying to reach the general public, the broader population.
0:02:27 > 0:02:29Yeah, a very nice way of
0:02:29 > 0:02:31communicating with the general public!
0:02:31 > 0:02:33Very pleasant!
0:02:35 > 0:02:39Groups like Abort 67 have been accused of traumatising women
0:02:39 > 0:02:41going into abortion clinics.
0:02:41 > 0:02:46Many women I see will be distressed by the protesters outside
0:02:46 > 0:02:51and some are just completely in pieces. Just distressed.
0:02:51 > 0:02:52Just horrible.
0:02:53 > 0:02:55Really crying, really upset.
0:02:57 > 0:02:59Are you comfortable with potentially adding
0:02:59 > 0:03:02to their already distressed state?
0:03:02 > 0:03:04I don't think that's the case.
0:03:04 > 0:03:06Looking at these pictures is upsetting.
0:03:06 > 0:03:10That's because killing unborn babies is upsetting,
0:03:10 > 0:03:12but these women are going to be making decisions
0:03:12 > 0:03:14that they will later regret,
0:03:14 > 0:03:16that they will be distressed about.
0:03:16 > 0:03:19But the truth is that, across their lifetimes,
0:03:19 > 0:03:22one in three women will have an abortion.
0:03:22 > 0:03:26The UK has one of the highest abortion rates in Western Europe.
0:03:26 > 0:03:30Last year, 200,000 women terminated a pregnancy.
0:03:30 > 0:03:31Is that simply too many?
0:03:33 > 0:03:37I don't think that the UK does have particularly high abortion rates.
0:03:37 > 0:03:39We live in a society where
0:03:39 > 0:03:42there is a strong belief that we should be able to decide
0:03:42 > 0:03:46when we want to have children.
0:03:46 > 0:03:52In those circumstances, it's not difficult to understand why women,
0:03:52 > 0:03:54when they do have unwanted pregnancies,
0:03:54 > 0:03:56take the decision to end them.
0:04:01 > 0:04:04Pro-life campaigners say the law is being abused.
0:04:04 > 0:04:08They point to the rising number of repeat abortions.
0:04:09 > 0:04:12Over a third of women having an abortion
0:04:12 > 0:04:14have had at least one before.
0:04:15 > 0:04:19So, are some women using abortion instead of contraception?
0:04:21 > 0:04:24I've come to Croydon to try to find out.
0:04:24 > 0:04:27It's one of the largest, most diverse
0:04:27 > 0:04:30and most deprived boroughs in London.
0:04:30 > 0:04:32And it has one of the highest repeat abortion rates
0:04:32 > 0:04:33in the country.
0:04:36 > 0:04:42Here, I met Maria, who had abortions when she was 15, 16 and 17
0:04:42 > 0:04:44and she's had two more later in life.
0:04:46 > 0:04:50I was a child. I was a child in my head, in my thinking.
0:04:50 > 0:04:53You know, my whole life I was a child
0:04:53 > 0:04:55so the idea of having a child was just ridiculous.
0:04:57 > 0:04:59She says her chaotic lifestyle
0:04:59 > 0:05:02and bad relationships left her with little choice.
0:05:02 > 0:05:05People hearing that you'd had multiple abortions
0:05:05 > 0:05:07over a period of 15 years
0:05:07 > 0:05:10might be really shocked. What would you say to them?
0:05:10 > 0:05:12Not to be shocked, not to judge.
0:05:12 > 0:05:15It's not something I would have wanted to do,
0:05:15 > 0:05:18but in the circumstance it was what I had to do.
0:05:18 > 0:05:20Yeah, I might look on it now and think
0:05:20 > 0:05:23I could have had X amount of children,
0:05:23 > 0:05:24but could I have looked after them?
0:05:24 > 0:05:26That's another story.
0:05:29 > 0:05:34For women aged 13 to 19 in Croydon,
0:05:34 > 0:05:3750% of repeat abortions took place within a year.
0:05:39 > 0:05:43So, what are young people's attitudes to abortion?
0:05:43 > 0:05:48I joined one community group trying to reduce unwanted pregnancies.
0:05:48 > 0:05:51I think abortion nowadays is so easy to have.
0:05:51 > 0:05:53I've heard girls say, "It's all right if I get pregnant,
0:05:53 > 0:05:56"just get an abortion." And I think, like...
0:05:56 > 0:05:59you shouldn't "just get an abortion".
0:05:59 > 0:06:03It's so easy for young people to go into clinic and get an abortion.
0:06:03 > 0:06:05Cos if you get an abortion,
0:06:05 > 0:06:08your parents wouldn't know about it, so I think that's why it's high.
0:06:08 > 0:06:11Do you think young people are that flippant? They just think,
0:06:11 > 0:06:13I'll just get an abortion?
0:06:13 > 0:06:14I don't think it's being flippant,
0:06:14 > 0:06:18I think it's just avoiding any issue until the last moment.
0:06:18 > 0:06:22Like, you avoid confronting someone on whether to use a condom.
0:06:22 > 0:06:26You haven't bought the morning after pill, so you have an abortion.
0:06:26 > 0:06:29But then for the same thing to happen again...?
0:06:29 > 0:06:33It just suggests you haven't learned any lessons.
0:06:33 > 0:06:35I think it's just, they have an abortion
0:06:35 > 0:06:37because it's the only option left.
0:06:37 > 0:06:40For a guy it's easier because you aren't carrying the baby.
0:06:40 > 0:06:43We can just run away, do whatever we want to do.
0:06:43 > 0:06:45But, as a girl, she's got to carry the baby,
0:06:45 > 0:06:47look after it, raise it, whatever.
0:06:47 > 0:06:52Isn't that an issue in society as well? So, it's like a double whammy.
0:06:52 > 0:06:55Abortion or single-parent? Which one do you go for?
0:06:59 > 0:07:02Community workers here say women can have good reasons
0:07:02 > 0:07:05for needing more than one abortion.
0:07:05 > 0:07:11You could have one at 17 or 15 and you could have one at 45.
0:07:11 > 0:07:15Your reasons might be very different at both ends of the spectrum,
0:07:15 > 0:07:17but the statistics would still have you down
0:07:17 > 0:07:19as having had a repeat abortion.
0:07:20 > 0:07:24Those repeat abortion statistics include women like Zaphena.
0:07:24 > 0:07:28She was married and already had a child when she got pregnant again.
0:07:30 > 0:07:32The doctor had a look at my notes
0:07:32 > 0:07:35and said that the medication I'd been taking
0:07:35 > 0:07:37over the last six months or so
0:07:37 > 0:07:42could have caused physical deformities,
0:07:42 > 0:07:46mental disabilities within my child.
0:07:46 > 0:07:50And that he would recommend that,
0:07:50 > 0:07:54if I don't think I was up for the challenge, to have a termination.
0:07:54 > 0:07:58It was something Zaphena never expected to go through again,
0:07:58 > 0:08:01but, after having a son, she then separated from her husband.
0:08:03 > 0:08:04Earlier this year,
0:08:04 > 0:08:07you discovered you were pregnant again with your boyfriend,
0:08:07 > 0:08:10despite using contraception.
0:08:10 > 0:08:12Tell us what happened.
0:08:12 > 0:08:14My son was about to go into primary school,
0:08:14 > 0:08:19I'd just started a new job, I'd signed up to finish my degree.
0:08:19 > 0:08:21It just wasn't the right time in my life
0:08:21 > 0:08:24to throw another baby into the mix.
0:08:26 > 0:08:28What's clear from Croydon is that there are many reasons
0:08:28 > 0:08:32why women might want repeat abortions.
0:08:32 > 0:08:35But is this what our law was designed for?
0:08:38 > 0:08:43Abortion was legalised in England, Scotland and Wales in 1967.
0:08:43 > 0:08:46The law was changed after years of campaigning.
0:08:46 > 0:08:48Hundreds of women had been dying every year
0:08:48 > 0:08:52after backstreet or self-induced abortions.
0:08:52 > 0:08:54Some caused themselves horrific injuries
0:08:54 > 0:08:57using coat hangers and knitting needles.
0:08:58 > 0:09:03In desperation, I tried to insert a knitting needle.
0:09:03 > 0:09:06I'd no idea where to direct it, where to put it.
0:09:06 > 0:09:09I was in such a state of mind where I just didn't care.
0:09:09 > 0:09:12If a woman's desperate, she doesn't want another child,
0:09:12 > 0:09:15she just doesn't want another child.
0:09:15 > 0:09:19I would go through it again because you forget pain after a while.
0:09:24 > 0:09:27The 1967 Abortion Act was intended to prevent
0:09:27 > 0:09:33that kind of desperation, but it did not give women abortion on demand.
0:09:36 > 0:09:38An abortion is only legal
0:09:38 > 0:09:40if it is carried out under one of the medical grounds
0:09:40 > 0:09:42defined in the Act,
0:09:42 > 0:09:47and 98% are allowed for one particular reason.
0:09:47 > 0:09:51The overwhelming majority of abortions are approved after
0:09:51 > 0:09:52two doctors sign a document
0:09:52 > 0:09:55that says a woman could face mental health problems
0:09:55 > 0:09:58if she continues with the pregnancy.
0:09:58 > 0:10:01But are so many women really at risk?
0:10:01 > 0:10:03Or are doctors bending the law?
0:10:05 > 0:10:08In 2011, the Royal College of Psychiatrists
0:10:08 > 0:10:11reviewed the mental health risks of abortion.
0:10:11 > 0:10:15They concluded that, for women with an unwanted pregnancy,
0:10:15 > 0:10:17rates of mental health problems were the same
0:10:17 > 0:10:21whether they had an abortion or gave birth.
0:10:21 > 0:10:22So there wasn't strong evidence
0:10:22 > 0:10:26that having an abortion protects a woman's mental health.
0:10:27 > 0:10:30Pro-life groups say this raises serious legal questions.
0:10:32 > 0:10:34The key point is that the risk to mental health
0:10:34 > 0:10:37of continuing with the pregnancy
0:10:37 > 0:10:42has to be greater than the risk of having an abortion.
0:10:42 > 0:10:48And, when a doctor knowingly and willingly puts his or her signature
0:10:48 > 0:10:51to a statutory document
0:10:51 > 0:10:53saying something for which
0:10:53 > 0:10:56there isn't actually any medical evidence base,
0:10:56 > 0:11:00then, I believe, that is not only immoral,
0:11:00 > 0:11:02it is also illegal.
0:11:02 > 0:11:04It's a form of perjury.
0:11:05 > 0:11:08Some women who've had an abortion agree that it's too easy.
0:11:09 > 0:11:12Personally, I would have liked someone to have stopped and said,
0:11:12 > 0:11:16you have to see a counsellor before you do this,
0:11:16 > 0:11:19even if it's just to clarify your reasons why.
0:11:19 > 0:11:21I remember actually coming out of the clinic
0:11:21 > 0:11:27and heading back towards my car and thinking, "Huh, that was easy!"
0:11:30 > 0:11:33Doctors admit the law is interpreted liberally.
0:11:33 > 0:11:36If a woman says she doesn't want to be pregnant
0:11:36 > 0:11:37that is usually taken as evidence
0:11:37 > 0:11:40that it's a risk to her mental health.
0:11:41 > 0:11:45I think it's a realistic interpretation of the legislation.
0:11:45 > 0:11:49There isn't a blood test one can use to predict
0:11:49 > 0:11:52whether someone is going to get mental health problems.
0:11:52 > 0:11:54What we have is what the woman tells us.
0:11:54 > 0:11:57It isn't for me to judge her or to be moralistic.
0:11:57 > 0:12:00It isn't for me to explore the potential other options,
0:12:00 > 0:12:02but to take her at face value.
0:12:05 > 0:12:07While some women are genuinely at risk,
0:12:07 > 0:12:12there is no evidence that's true of 98% of women who get an abortion.
0:12:16 > 0:12:19I think we need to distinguish between, on the one hand,
0:12:19 > 0:12:24people being upset about a certain decision and, on the other hand,
0:12:24 > 0:12:29being at greater risk of having a real mental health problem -
0:12:29 > 0:12:33a recognised mental health condition like an anxiety disorder,
0:12:33 > 0:12:37depression, drug and alcohol abuse, suicide and so on -
0:12:37 > 0:12:42if they carry on with the pregnancy.
0:12:44 > 0:12:46Back in 2008, you said
0:12:46 > 0:12:49"Women have to pretend they'll have a nervous breakdown
0:12:49 > 0:12:53"if they continue with their pregnancy,
0:12:53 > 0:12:55"and doctors have to pretend to believe them."
0:12:55 > 0:12:57Do you still stand by that?
0:12:57 > 0:13:01I think that doctors would be far happier with a situation
0:13:01 > 0:13:04where they didn't have to go through
0:13:04 > 0:13:08the arrangements that exist at the moment.
0:13:08 > 0:13:11But, because they do, we all make it work.
0:13:18 > 0:13:19So, in most of the UK,
0:13:19 > 0:13:24the law is being interpreted liberally to give women a choice.
0:13:28 > 0:13:31But I've come to another part of the country,
0:13:31 > 0:13:33where women have no choice at all.
0:13:35 > 0:13:37These pro-life protesters
0:13:37 > 0:13:39show the strength of feeling in Northern Ireland.
0:13:39 > 0:13:44Here, a woman can't get an abortion even if she has been raped.
0:13:44 > 0:13:46THEY SING
0:13:47 > 0:13:51Doctors can be jailed for life for performing abortions
0:13:51 > 0:13:54and if a woman takes abortion pills by herself,
0:13:54 > 0:13:57she can still be charged with murder.
0:13:57 > 0:14:03THEY SAY PRAYERS
0:14:03 > 0:14:06But some women are willing to take that risk.
0:14:10 > 0:14:14Sarah already had three young children when she discovered that,
0:14:14 > 0:14:15despite being on the pill,
0:14:15 > 0:14:17she was pregnant again.
0:14:20 > 0:14:24She bought abortion pills online from a reputable website.
0:14:26 > 0:14:29It was completely a crisis point.
0:14:29 > 0:14:32We couldn't afford it in any aspect, financially, emotionally.
0:14:32 > 0:14:37It just was not the right time for us to have another child.
0:14:37 > 0:14:39We're protecting her identity
0:14:39 > 0:14:43because she could face life imprisonment for taking the pills.
0:14:43 > 0:14:45I think I got so far in my life,
0:14:45 > 0:14:49I got to 37 I think without really breaking the law ever,
0:14:49 > 0:14:53so I think it makes you feel utterly undignified.
0:14:53 > 0:14:55I was very happy and grateful
0:14:55 > 0:14:58that I could do the procedure myself at home,
0:14:58 > 0:15:01because it caused the least amount of disruption to my family.
0:15:01 > 0:15:05But to have to worry about every step of the way,
0:15:05 > 0:15:07to worry whether the postman knew...
0:15:07 > 0:15:10It's not something I would ever want to go through again.
0:15:12 > 0:15:16Abortion here is still regulated by Victorian legislation.
0:15:16 > 0:15:20Terminations are allowed, but only in exceptional circumstances.
0:15:22 > 0:15:24The woman's life has to be in danger.
0:15:25 > 0:15:30Last year, there were just 75 legal abortions in Northern Ireland.
0:15:31 > 0:15:33Today's demonstration is about the opening
0:15:33 > 0:15:37of the first private abortion clinic here.
0:15:37 > 0:15:40It has come as an unwelcome surprise to many people.
0:15:42 > 0:15:47I think what really strikes you is how adamant people are that abortion
0:15:47 > 0:15:49is illegal in Northern Ireland,
0:15:49 > 0:15:53and actually they think the opening of a Marie Stopes clinic in Belfast
0:15:53 > 0:15:55is going to lead to illegal abortions.
0:15:59 > 0:16:02We have the lowest maternal mortality rate in the whole world.
0:16:02 > 0:16:05In fact, Ireland's the safest place in the world to have a baby.
0:16:05 > 0:16:07Why do we need to perform abortions?
0:16:07 > 0:16:09Why do we need Marie Stopes International?
0:16:09 > 0:16:13We're offering medical termination under nine weeks.
0:16:13 > 0:16:17- The abortion pill, as people colloquially call it.- Yes.
0:16:17 > 0:16:22That's a two-stage process with two different types of medication.
0:16:22 > 0:16:26But what's really important is that you cannot walk into the clinic
0:16:26 > 0:16:28and just get that treatment from us.
0:16:28 > 0:16:32We will not be involved in providing anything that's illegal.
0:16:34 > 0:16:36Marie Stopes wouldn't be opening here
0:16:36 > 0:16:40unless the legislation allowed abortion in certain circumstances.
0:16:40 > 0:16:42That remains to be seen.
0:16:42 > 0:16:45There's an investigation at this time into whether Marie Stopes
0:16:45 > 0:16:47will be able to perform abortions here.
0:16:47 > 0:16:49In fact, if I've anything to do with it,
0:16:49 > 0:16:53Marie Stopes will not be performing any abortions in Northern Ireland.
0:16:53 > 0:16:54They can open the clinic,
0:16:54 > 0:16:57but in terms of what they do within the clinic,
0:16:57 > 0:17:00is the business of our justice system and our government.
0:17:04 > 0:17:07The pro-life movement has significant support here.
0:17:07 > 0:17:13Opposition to abortion unites Protestant and Catholic politicians.
0:17:13 > 0:17:15The Health Minister is an evangelical Christian
0:17:15 > 0:17:18and a vocal opponent of abortion.
0:17:20 > 0:17:23The word or term "pro-choice"
0:17:23 > 0:17:28is really a term which means no choice for thousands of children,
0:17:28 > 0:17:31and millions of children when it comes to GB.
0:17:31 > 0:17:35And I will always resist the 1967 Abortion Act
0:17:35 > 0:17:36coming to Northern Ireland.
0:17:36 > 0:17:37- MINISTERS:- Hear, hear.
0:17:42 > 0:17:45Doctors at the new clinic will be walking a legal tightrope.
0:17:46 > 0:17:50If they get it wrong, they could be charged with murder.
0:17:52 > 0:17:55Ultimately, will it be the two doctors at your clinic that make
0:17:55 > 0:18:00the final decision that a woman fits the legal criteria for an abortion?
0:18:00 > 0:18:02It will be the two doctors working in the clinic,
0:18:02 > 0:18:06but they will work in conjunction with other healthcare professionals
0:18:06 > 0:18:09that may have been involved in the care of that woman,
0:18:09 > 0:18:12to make sure that we're working within the law.
0:18:14 > 0:18:17The dangers of the Northern Ireland approach were highlighted
0:18:17 > 0:18:20by a death across the border in the Republic of Ireland.
0:18:20 > 0:18:23Savita Halappanavar died after her family say
0:18:23 > 0:18:26she was refused a termination in hospital.
0:18:28 > 0:18:31The Republic of Ireland has similar legislation on abortion
0:18:31 > 0:18:33to Northern Ireland.
0:18:33 > 0:18:36Critics say it leaves doctors scared to act,
0:18:36 > 0:18:39even when a woman's life is in danger.
0:18:39 > 0:18:41This could happen to any one of us.
0:18:41 > 0:18:44It could happen to any woman going in to give birth
0:18:44 > 0:18:47in an Irish hospital, both north and south of the border.
0:18:52 > 0:18:55If you don't want to risk jail, the safest way of ending
0:18:55 > 0:18:58an unwanted pregnancy is a visit to an English clinic.
0:19:01 > 0:19:03It's a journey women from Northern Ireland
0:19:03 > 0:19:06have been taking for almost 50 years.
0:19:14 > 0:19:15Women like Rachel.
0:19:17 > 0:19:21I was in a short-term relationship, it was quite a volatile
0:19:21 > 0:19:23and abusive relationship.
0:19:23 > 0:19:25And that's when I found out that I was pregnant.
0:19:25 > 0:19:27I knew that I wasn't ready to be a parent,
0:19:27 > 0:19:29I wasn't ready to be a mother.
0:19:29 > 0:19:32I wanted to have an abortion, I wanted to terminate the pregnancy.
0:19:32 > 0:19:34Rachel had to wait two months
0:19:34 > 0:19:38to save the £1,000 she needed to go to England.
0:19:38 > 0:19:41The delay meant she had to have a more difficult, surgical abortion.
0:19:43 > 0:19:48The journey itself was fine, I was familiar with London.
0:19:48 > 0:19:50And it wasn't, I suppose,
0:19:50 > 0:19:54until I knocked on the door of the B&B that it hit me.
0:19:54 > 0:19:58It was just me sitting on a bed in a single room with a suitcase.
0:19:58 > 0:20:01I just remember getting the knock at the door
0:20:01 > 0:20:04and somebody telling me that the clinic was ready for me.
0:20:10 > 0:20:13Around 1,000 women a year travel from Northern Ireland
0:20:13 > 0:20:15to get an abortion.
0:20:15 > 0:20:17When they reach England,
0:20:17 > 0:20:20some of them get help from volunteers like Mara Clarke.
0:20:22 > 0:20:23Her charity can offer women
0:20:23 > 0:20:25financial support and a place to stay.
0:20:30 > 0:20:34OK, so we've got lots of steps and stairs.
0:20:34 > 0:20:37And this is where you would bring a woman
0:20:37 > 0:20:39who had come over here for an abortion?
0:20:39 > 0:20:43Yeah, the host would arrange to pick them up at the clinic,
0:20:43 > 0:20:45so the woman wouldn't have to navigate her way.
0:20:45 > 0:20:48And then the first thing that we would do is tell them
0:20:48 > 0:20:51to make themselves at home - this is where you can hang your coat,
0:20:51 > 0:20:53this is where the kitchen is here.
0:20:53 > 0:20:55And I'd show them where the tea is and the water and the glasses,
0:20:55 > 0:20:59this is where the loo is, these are your towels,
0:20:59 > 0:21:00this is where the paracetamol is.
0:21:00 > 0:21:03I would show them where they're going to be sleeping.
0:21:03 > 0:21:05Do you help some women who find themselves
0:21:05 > 0:21:07in catastrophic circumstances?
0:21:07 > 0:21:09Those are the only women that we help,
0:21:09 > 0:21:12because if you think about it, the stigma against abortion
0:21:12 > 0:21:16in Northern Ireland is so great that there are women who have called us
0:21:16 > 0:21:19and we've been the first person they've told that they were raped.
0:21:19 > 0:21:21They are so afraid even to tell a rape crisis agency
0:21:21 > 0:21:22that they were raped,
0:21:22 > 0:21:25because they are afraid they will be forced to have the baby.
0:21:28 > 0:21:32Imagine what it would take to be calling a total stranger
0:21:32 > 0:21:35in a foreign country and begging for money.
0:21:35 > 0:21:38And when we say money, we mean £10, £5, £20.
0:21:51 > 0:21:53So this is where a woman would sleep.
0:21:53 > 0:21:58It's a lovely room, it's warm, and Mara is a lovely person.
0:21:58 > 0:22:01But in the end, you are still on your own.
0:22:06 > 0:22:09I'm so angry, I could jump up and down.
0:22:09 > 0:22:12Making abortion against the law doesn't stop abortion.
0:22:12 > 0:22:17It just makes it inconvenient for women and families with resources,
0:22:17 > 0:22:22and impossible and desperate for women and families without resources.
0:22:22 > 0:22:24I counted up the number of times
0:22:24 > 0:22:27the phone volunteers have put in the notes,
0:22:27 > 0:22:30"She said she'd rather be dead than pregnant."
0:22:32 > 0:22:36Having to make this journey could put women at greater risk.
0:22:39 > 0:22:42The simplest abortions are in the first few months of pregnancy.
0:22:42 > 0:22:44But women who travel from Northern Ireland
0:22:44 > 0:22:47are likely to need a surgical procedure,
0:22:47 > 0:22:50because by the time they get over here to a clinic,
0:22:50 > 0:22:52they are further along in their pregnancy.
0:22:52 > 0:22:56It's hard to believe that such a disparity exists between women
0:22:56 > 0:22:59living in different parts of the UK.
0:23:00 > 0:23:04Most abortions take place early on in the pregnancy.
0:23:04 > 0:23:09In England and Wales, 91% are performed at under 13 weeks.
0:23:09 > 0:23:12Just 1% take place over 20 weeks.
0:23:14 > 0:23:18The current legal time limit for abortion is 24 weeks.
0:23:22 > 0:23:26If we see babies from 12 weeks and later who are stepping,
0:23:26 > 0:23:30smiling, frowning, sucking their thumbs and so on in the womb,
0:23:30 > 0:23:33many people seeing those pictures,
0:23:33 > 0:23:35seeing the humanity of the pre-born baby,
0:23:35 > 0:23:38feel that we shouldn't be aborting babies at that level.
0:23:40 > 0:23:44Although it would have little effect on the number of abortions,
0:23:44 > 0:23:48some MPs want the time limit reduced to 20 weeks.
0:23:49 > 0:23:54I think it's wrong that in an NHS hospital in one room
0:23:54 > 0:23:58you can have a poorly baby which is born at 20 weeks prematurely,
0:23:58 > 0:24:00and have the NHS throw everything they have at that baby
0:24:00 > 0:24:02to save its life,
0:24:02 > 0:24:06and in the next room have a healthy baby being aborted at 24 weeks.
0:24:06 > 0:24:08That anomaly needs to be corrected,
0:24:08 > 0:24:11and I don't think it can continue any longer.
0:24:12 > 0:24:16The calls for change aren't just coming from the backbenches.
0:24:16 > 0:24:20Government ministers Theresa May and Maria Miller have both spoken out
0:24:20 > 0:24:23in a personal capacity in support of a 20-week limit.
0:24:24 > 0:24:28England's Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, wants to go further.
0:24:28 > 0:24:31He favours halving the current limit to 12 weeks.
0:24:33 > 0:24:36The last time Parliament voted on abortion was 2008,
0:24:36 > 0:24:40when MPs decided to keep the limit at 24 weeks.
0:24:40 > 0:24:43But 13 Conservatives who are now in the Cabinet
0:24:43 > 0:24:46voted for a reduction in the limit,
0:24:46 > 0:24:49including Prime Minister David Cameron.
0:24:49 > 0:24:51Pro-choice campaigners are worried
0:24:51 > 0:24:54that some Tories want to change the law.
0:24:54 > 0:24:57There's absolutely no medical basis for reducing the time limit -
0:24:57 > 0:24:59the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists
0:24:59 > 0:25:00is very clear on this -
0:25:00 > 0:25:03but there is a lot of political pressure on the Government
0:25:03 > 0:25:04from the right.
0:25:04 > 0:25:07We only hope they'll be able to withstand that.
0:25:07 > 0:25:12Control over our own bodies is actually ground zero for every
0:25:12 > 0:25:17social, economic and educational advance women have made in a century,
0:25:17 > 0:25:19so I think the right to choose is vital.
0:25:22 > 0:25:2524 weeks was chosen as the time limit for abortion,
0:25:25 > 0:25:27because from that point
0:25:27 > 0:25:30babies are capable of survival outside the womb.
0:25:30 > 0:25:33The major professional medical bodies don't support a reduction
0:25:33 > 0:25:37in the time limit, because they say this hasn't changed.
0:25:38 > 0:25:41Below 24 weeks, nearly all premature babies will die.
0:25:44 > 0:25:47Not everyone accepts what the medical experts say, however.
0:25:49 > 0:25:51Figures here from 2010
0:25:51 > 0:25:57show that of the 247 babies who were born before 22 weeks,
0:25:57 > 0:25:59only five survived.
0:25:59 > 0:26:02Yes, but you're giving me figures of babies that were born prematurely,
0:26:02 > 0:26:04and they were born prematurely for a reason,
0:26:04 > 0:26:08and that reason is often because those babies are very poorly.
0:26:08 > 0:26:13Now, when you show me babies that have been born at 20 weeks
0:26:13 > 0:26:16who were healthy, from healthy mothers,
0:26:16 > 0:26:19and then have a look at how many of those babies survived,
0:26:19 > 0:26:21then you can compare like with like.
0:26:21 > 0:26:26Abortion has always been a divisive and emotive issue.
0:26:26 > 0:26:28The right of an unborn child
0:26:28 > 0:26:32versus the right of a pregnant woman to choose.
0:26:32 > 0:26:36An unborn child cannot be given any rights
0:26:36 > 0:26:43that take away from the rights, the very real rights,
0:26:43 > 0:26:46of the woman who is carrying it.
0:26:46 > 0:26:50The most fundamental right of all is the right to life.
0:26:50 > 0:26:54And there is no-one more innocent, more vulnerable
0:26:54 > 0:26:58and killed in greater numbers in Britain than the pre-born baby.
0:27:05 > 0:27:08Not the Church, not the state, women will decide their fate!
0:27:08 > 0:27:10It's not your body, hands off!
0:27:12 > 0:27:17I've had miscarriages, I've had children and I've had abortions.
0:27:17 > 0:27:20I've been on all sides of the track,
0:27:20 > 0:27:23and I don't see abortion as being wrong.
0:27:23 > 0:27:29If a doctor or a nurse were to ask any of their patients
0:27:29 > 0:27:32why they were doing it, they would always get a different answer.
0:27:33 > 0:27:36Governments in both London and Belfast
0:27:36 > 0:27:38currently prefer to maintain the status quo.
0:27:40 > 0:27:44So doctors in most of the UK will continue to sign off abortions
0:27:44 > 0:27:47on questionable mental health grounds.
0:27:49 > 0:27:54While in Northern Ireland, women say they are stuck in a Victorian limbo.
0:27:54 > 0:27:57It was the circumstances that make you feel like a convict.
0:27:57 > 0:28:01Imagine if I'm arrested or I'm brought to court for it.
0:28:01 > 0:28:04What will it do to my children? What will it do to my family?
0:28:04 > 0:28:09We have two very different abortion laws, in one country.
0:28:09 > 0:28:12Shouldn't that at least merit another look?
0:28:16 > 0:28:18Next week - Barclays.
0:28:18 > 0:28:20After a series of controversies,
0:28:20 > 0:28:23bosses say they're changing the culture of the bank,
0:28:23 > 0:28:24but what went wrong?
0:28:24 > 0:28:28We investigate the bonus culture that drove one of our biggest banks.
0:28:30 > 0:28:32Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd