0:00:05 > 0:00:09Every day, Britain's discovering just how much more men
0:00:09 > 0:00:11are earning than women.
0:00:11 > 0:00:14The gender pay gap's been revealed at hundreds...
0:00:14 > 0:00:20Female employees earning up to 43% less than male
0:00:20 > 0:00:21employees at Barclays.
0:00:21 > 0:00:24Nearly 50 years after equal pay became the law, could this be
0:00:24 > 0:00:26the year that things finally change?
0:00:26 > 0:00:30We're not little ladies any more, we do just as much hard work.
0:00:30 > 0:00:32Chanting"What do we want? Equal pay!
0:00:32 > 0:00:34When do we want it? Now".
0:00:34 > 0:00:37The BBC, my own employer, has found itself at the centre of the row.
0:00:37 > 0:00:40I felt somebody had to do it, somebody had to call management out.
0:00:40 > 0:00:43When you're in a talent business, there are many, many reasons
0:00:43 > 0:00:50as to why people might be paid slightly differently.
0:00:50 > 0:00:53Now I'm off around the country, and beyond, to find out what's
0:00:53 > 0:00:56behind Britain's Equal Pay Scandal.
0:01:11 > 0:01:13The glitzy enclave of Monaco might seem an unlikely place to begin
0:01:13 > 0:01:20a story about equal pay in Britain.
0:01:20 > 0:01:25I've come to Monte Carlo, to meet someone who wants to speak
0:01:25 > 0:01:27to me about the BBC and equal pay.
0:01:27 > 0:01:30She's a world famous sports star and she's spent years
0:01:30 > 0:01:35appearing on the BBC.
0:01:35 > 0:01:37The BBC reveals the pay of its top stars.
0:01:37 > 0:01:40Of the list of 96 best paid, only a third are women
0:01:40 > 0:01:45and the top seven are all men.
0:01:45 > 0:01:49Guest of honour here at a sports awards, but she isn't one
0:01:49 > 0:01:52of the BBC's best paid stars...
0:01:52 > 0:01:55Martina Navratilova.
0:01:55 > 0:02:03I left my country, which was a totally terror regime,
0:02:04 > 0:02:08Czech Republic, communist country - I left that country
0:02:08 > 0:02:11because I couldn't speak out, so I'm speaking out because it
0:02:11 > 0:02:13affects so many, so many women across the board.
0:02:13 > 0:02:19The BBC's published one tennis pundit's pay.
0:02:19 > 0:02:22John McEnroe is getting £150-200,000 for his Wimbledon fortnight.
0:02:22 > 0:02:24Good evening to you, I'm looking forward to discussing
0:02:24 > 0:02:25and dissecting this match.
0:02:25 > 0:02:27We're going to...
0:02:27 > 0:02:30His earnings were news to his fellow Wimbledon commentator,
0:02:30 > 0:02:32Martina Navratilova.
0:02:32 > 0:02:35It's hard to really compare exactly, because some people work
0:02:35 > 0:02:36a little longer days, maybe fewer or more
0:02:36 > 0:02:40programmes, whatever.
0:02:40 > 0:02:42But overall, it was a shock because John McEnroe
0:02:42 > 0:02:49makes at least £150,000.
0:02:49 > 0:02:54I get about £15,000 for Wimbledon, and unless John McEnroe's doing
0:02:54 > 0:02:56a whole bunch of stuff outside of Wimbledon,
0:02:56 > 0:02:59he's getting at least ten times as much money.
0:02:59 > 0:03:00Ten times?
0:03:00 > 0:03:01For very comparable work, so, yeah...
0:03:01 > 0:03:03At the moment, that's what I know.
0:03:03 > 0:03:04How do you feel about that?
0:03:04 > 0:03:06Not happy, needless to say.
0:03:06 > 0:03:09I mean, it's shocking.
0:03:09 > 0:03:12It's extremely unfair and it makes me angry for the other women
0:03:12 > 0:03:20that I think go through this.
0:03:20 > 0:03:23The BBC might say, well John McEnroe does more hours
0:03:23 > 0:03:24or he's on air longer.
0:03:24 > 0:03:25Ten times as much?
0:03:25 > 0:03:26I don't think so.
0:03:26 > 0:03:28Commentator:And the dream has come true!
0:03:28 > 0:03:32A pioneer, an activist, an icon...
0:03:32 > 0:03:37Martina Navratilova has won Wimbledon more
0:03:37 > 0:03:41times than John McEnroe.
0:03:41 > 0:03:44As a pundit, last year Panorama estimates he made about three
0:03:44 > 0:03:46times as many appearances during the tournament as she did.
0:03:46 > 0:03:53You cannot be serious, man, you cannot be serious!
0:03:53 > 0:03:56Did you ever say to theBBC, "Am I earning a comparable amount
0:03:56 > 0:03:57to a man doing a similar job?"
0:03:57 > 0:04:00Absolutely, and we were told yes, I was getting a compatible amount,
0:04:00 > 0:04:02so we were not told the truth.
0:04:02 > 0:04:09That's for sure.
0:04:09 > 0:04:12Because it's 50 years now since the Equal Pay Act in Britain.
0:04:12 > 0:04:13Wow.
0:04:13 > 0:04:14Yeah, 50 years since equal pay.
0:04:14 > 0:04:15So it's the law!
0:04:15 > 0:04:17And BBC is a public corporation.
0:04:17 > 0:04:18Yeah, they've got to do better.
0:04:18 > 0:04:23Bbc sport told Panorama the two pundits are simply not compatible.
0:04:23 > 0:04:26John McEnroe is contracted to be on call throughout the tournament.
0:04:26 > 0:04:29His role is of a different scale, scope and time commitment
0:04:29 > 0:04:32to Martina Navratilova.
0:04:32 > 0:04:40# I want to spend my life with a girl like you...#.
0:04:40 > 0:04:44The fight for equal pay in Britain is as old as this Ford Cortina.
0:04:44 > 0:04:47Made in Dagenham, the same year that women's sewing machinists here went
0:04:47 > 0:04:49on strike to establish they were as skilled as the men
0:04:49 > 0:04:51and should be paid the same.
0:04:51 > 0:04:53How far are you prepared to go in striking to insist
0:04:53 > 0:04:54on being skilled labour?
0:04:54 > 0:04:56As far as it takes.
0:04:56 > 0:04:59It seems incredible that it's 50 years since women
0:04:59 > 0:05:01here at Ford Dagenham fought for equal pay.
0:05:01 > 0:05:04That's half a century, and women across britain are still fighting.
0:05:04 > 0:05:07Do you believe in this women's strike?
0:05:07 > 0:05:09No, I don't, they should get the same as lads.
0:05:09 > 0:05:11You don't believe in equal pay?
0:05:11 > 0:05:14No, no, no.
0:05:14 > 0:05:17The Ford women were laughed at when they demanded their rights
0:05:17 > 0:05:19and equal pay, but they united, fought back and took
0:05:19 > 0:05:25their case to Parliament.
0:05:25 > 0:05:30Our legislation will provide, therefore, that by the end of 1975,
0:05:30 > 0:05:33it will at last be illegal to discriminate against
0:05:33 > 0:05:41women in rates of pay.
0:05:41 > 0:05:49APPLAUSE
0:05:53 > 0:05:56The Equal Pay Act established that women and men must
0:05:56 > 0:05:58be paid equally for equal work, even if the jobs are different.
0:05:58 > 0:06:00But how you establish that is complicated, and,
0:06:00 > 0:06:02to this day, it's been open to argument.
0:06:02 > 0:06:054000 women have taken the region's biggest council to an employment
0:06:05 > 0:06:08tribunal in a fight to get the same pay as men.
0:06:08 > 0:06:10I'm on my way to Birmingham, this city at the centre
0:06:10 > 0:06:11of a landmark case.
0:06:11 > 0:06:14It was here a decade ago the principle of equal pay for work
0:06:14 > 0:06:16of equal value was established.
0:06:16 > 0:06:17Women council workers, carers and cleaners argued
0:06:17 > 0:06:20they should be paid the same as binmen and they won.
0:06:20 > 0:06:22It's been three years in the planning, hasn't it?
0:06:22 > 0:06:29We've been trying to get it through and it's a milestone
0:06:29 > 0:06:31for all the ladies who work for Birmingham City Council.
0:06:31 > 0:06:34Jobs that were done predominantly by men were getting generally bonus
0:06:34 > 0:06:36payments that were substantially greater than the women were...
0:06:36 > 0:06:39I mean, the women didn't get any bonuses, so they had men
0:06:39 > 0:06:42and women on the same grade, where the men were getting 100-200%
0:06:42 > 0:06:46more than the women for jobs that were rated as equivalent.
0:06:46 > 0:06:49Winning their equal pay case meant six years' backpay for the women.
0:06:49 > 0:06:56It cost Birmingham Council more than £1 billion.
0:06:56 > 0:07:03It had to sell off the National Exhibition Centre.
0:07:03 > 0:07:05I was at the opening of the NEC when the Queen came,
0:07:05 > 0:07:09back in the '70s, and to see it being sold off was a very
0:07:09 > 0:07:10sad day in my life.
0:07:10 > 0:07:12Do you think that people realise how expensive,
0:07:12 > 0:07:14how ruinous - potentially - equal pay cases could be
0:07:14 > 0:07:19across the country?
0:07:19 > 0:07:23No I don't, no I don't, and I don't think that we really
0:07:23 > 0:07:24have started to see the full ramifications of
0:07:24 > 0:07:26the equal pay claims.
0:07:26 > 0:07:28Councils would say that you're an ambulance chaser,
0:07:28 > 0:07:31you're making a lot of money out of these equal pay cases
0:07:31 > 0:07:33and councils are suffering and services are suffering,
0:07:33 > 0:07:39and you're making money.
0:07:39 > 0:07:43Well, I'll only make money if I win and I don't get paid until I win.
0:07:43 > 0:07:45And you've won quite a lot of cases?
0:07:45 > 0:07:49Well, then I'm good at what I do.
0:07:49 > 0:07:54Chanting: "Equal pay or we walk away!"
0:07:54 > 0:07:56Glasgow council workers mark 100 years since the suffragettes won
0:07:56 > 0:07:59women the right to vote.
0:07:59 > 0:08:01These women, cleaners and carers, have also been fighting for more
0:08:01 > 0:08:09than ten years to be paid the same as street sweepers and binmen.
0:08:09 > 0:08:12We're still fighting in Glasgow, as we were in Birmingham.
0:08:12 > 0:08:14It's like deja vu all over again.
0:08:14 > 0:08:19They fought the litigation, the cases were resolved,
0:08:19 > 0:08:23they changed their pay system, we have to sue them all over again.
0:08:23 > 0:08:29Amongst the glasgow protesters was Amanda Green, a home carer.
0:08:29 > 0:08:32It's just quite sad that the women risked their lives back then
0:08:32 > 0:08:34for voting, and I think they would be very disappointed
0:08:34 > 0:08:38if they knew it was happening today, that women were still doing the same
0:08:38 > 0:08:41stuff and trying to fight for equal pay against a man.
0:08:41 > 0:08:44Days later, as snow brought the city to a standstill,
0:08:44 > 0:08:49Amanda was preparing to go out in subzero temperatures.
0:08:49 > 0:08:57She walks five miles daily to care for 15 housebound people.
0:08:57 > 0:08:59We work with machinery, we're going to people who have
0:08:59 > 0:09:01dementia and that is a hard job.
0:09:01 > 0:09:04We're sort of like counsellors, you could say, just trying
0:09:04 > 0:09:07to make them feel better.
0:09:07 > 0:09:08Some people don't even have family, so we're the only
0:09:08 > 0:09:10people that they see.
0:09:10 > 0:09:13Does anybody want a cup of tea or coffee?
0:09:13 > 0:09:19All the women in this family are carers.
0:09:19 > 0:09:21Amanda, her mother Nancy and sister Samantha.
0:09:21 > 0:09:25Nancy's been involved in the equal pay fight right from the start.
0:09:25 > 0:09:28The money must be there because they found the money
0:09:28 > 0:09:33for the gentlemen, how are they not finding the money for the ladies?
0:09:33 > 0:09:36Nancy's husband, Michael, used to be a bin man -
0:09:36 > 0:09:40the very job she thinks is of equal value to hers.
0:09:40 > 0:09:45Nancy used to work 50-60 hours a week, just to get a decent wage.
0:09:45 > 0:09:49And I worked for another council and I could work a lot less hours
0:09:49 > 0:09:50and still bring home more money.
0:09:50 > 0:09:54It's terrible.
0:09:54 > 0:09:58I'm staying with my mum and dad, I'm 26.
0:09:58 > 0:10:05I am trying to save for a house, and I've been saving up
0:10:05 > 0:10:13up but if I had more, like obviously the same money
0:10:14 > 0:10:16that the men were getting, then that meant that
0:10:16 > 0:10:20I could have been saving more, I could have bought a house quicker.
0:10:20 > 0:10:25The women say the Labour council and the trades unions fought
0:10:25 > 0:10:33against their equal pay claim for years, but now the SNP
0:10:34 > 0:10:37is running Glasgow City Hall and the mood has changed.
0:10:37 > 0:10:43But there's no deal, yet.
0:10:43 > 0:10:46I've come to meet the leader of Glasgow City Council; a woman.
0:10:46 > 0:10:49She was elected last year on a pledge to put right the equal
0:10:49 > 0:10:50pay issues facing the city.
0:10:50 > 0:10:52The spectre's been raised, Glasgow could face a bill
0:10:52 > 0:10:55of half a billion pounds, that could impact services and mean
0:10:55 > 0:10:56selling off valuable property.
0:10:56 > 0:10:59Essentially the message that has been given to these women doing
0:10:59 > 0:11:01these essential jobs is, "You don't matter as much as buildings".
0:11:01 > 0:11:03I believe that the historic assets glasgow owns are phenomenally
0:11:03 > 0:11:06important for this city, and we will do everything to avoid
0:11:06 > 0:11:07having to sell them off.
0:11:07 > 0:11:10We need to do the right thing by our women workers.
0:11:10 > 0:11:12It's going to be a difficult process and the resolution
0:11:12 > 0:11:16is going to be difficult, but difficult isn't an excuse.
0:11:16 > 0:11:19Across the country, now the principle of equal pay for equal
0:11:19 > 0:11:21value has been established in the public sector,
0:11:21 > 0:11:27women in the private sector want the same.
0:11:27 > 0:11:31Because everything is on show and easy to reach, housewives
0:11:31 > 0:11:33are finding shopping easier, quicker and more convenient.
0:11:33 > 0:11:35This year, the supermarkets are strongly contesting
0:11:35 > 0:11:42multi-billion pound lawsuits.
0:11:42 > 0:11:44I met up with Linda Wong, a lawyer based in Manchester,
0:11:44 > 0:11:46who's handling 20,000 claims by women against
0:11:46 > 0:11:49their employer, Asda.
0:11:49 > 0:11:51It's massive.
0:11:51 > 0:11:55Asda is the largest private-sector equal pay claim that's been
0:11:55 > 0:11:59brought in UK history.
0:11:59 > 0:12:01Tesco is currently following suit and in Sainsbury's
0:12:01 > 0:12:02it's over 1000 people.
0:12:02 > 0:12:04But this could cripple the supermarkets, the costs
0:12:04 > 0:12:05involved, thousands and thousands of cases?
0:12:05 > 0:12:07Yes, there is a potential fiscal liability to them,
0:12:07 > 0:12:10but you've got to balance that with the fact that these women have
0:12:10 > 0:12:14been underpaid for years.
0:12:14 > 0:12:18One of Linda's clients worked for 16 years on the tills
0:12:18 > 0:12:22and displays at Sainsbury's, jobs mostly done by women.
0:12:22 > 0:12:24Christine Trenchard says she was underpaid compared
0:12:24 > 0:12:30to workers in distribution, jobs mostly done by men.
0:12:30 > 0:12:34We were on less than what the blokes, the men were, yeah.
0:12:34 > 0:12:37My maximum wage is £8.50, and I believe theirs this
0:12:37 > 0:12:38possibly £12 an hour.
0:12:38 > 0:12:39So that's a £4 difference.
0:12:39 > 0:12:41Yeah, yeah.
0:12:41 > 0:12:44What do you say to people who say this could be very expensive
0:12:44 > 0:12:46for the supermarkets, if all these women win
0:12:46 > 0:12:48their legal claims?
0:12:48 > 0:12:52Should have thought of that.
0:12:52 > 0:12:55Sorry, but at the end of the day we're all employed by the same
0:12:55 > 0:12:58people and we're all worthy of the same wage.
0:12:58 > 0:13:01Why should men get more money than what we do?
0:13:01 > 0:13:04The information Linda gets from Christine about her job will be
0:13:04 > 0:13:06used by independent assessors to decide if it's of
0:13:06 > 0:13:13the same value as a job in storage and distribution.
0:13:13 > 0:13:16There is a common misconception that shop floor work is simple
0:13:16 > 0:13:19because you are just replenishing shelves and distribution work
0:13:19 > 0:13:24is more difficult because they're working in difficult conditions
0:13:24 > 0:13:27and it's hazardous.
0:13:27 > 0:13:30When you're looking at the concept of equal value, you will look at,
0:13:30 > 0:13:32yes, conditions of work, but so many other factors will be
0:13:32 > 0:13:37taken into consideration.
0:13:37 > 0:13:41Maybe some thought should be put to all of the other things that go
0:13:41 > 0:13:43on on the shop floor, aside from the shelf stacking,
0:13:43 > 0:13:44because they deal with customers.
0:13:44 > 0:13:47They have do assess age restriction items, whether they can sell knives
0:13:47 > 0:13:53or alcohol to people, that's not easy.
0:13:53 > 0:13:57I'm not doing it for myself, for money, I'm doing it for principle.
0:13:57 > 0:14:00We had Dagenham 50 years ago, where they were fighting for equal pay.
0:14:00 > 0:14:02I don't want my daughters, or my granddaughter that's due,
0:14:02 > 0:14:05in 50 years' time to be fighting the same.
0:14:05 > 0:14:09It's 2018.
0:14:09 > 0:14:11Sainsbury's told us...
0:14:20 > 0:14:24I think what's happening within these supermarkets
0:14:24 > 0:14:27in particular is that you're really seeing how far the hype
0:14:27 > 0:14:30around equal pay has gone.
0:14:30 > 0:14:34That people are claiming gender discrimination by not even
0:14:34 > 0:14:35comparing jobs like-for-like, but comparing their job
0:14:35 > 0:14:38to a completely different role.
0:14:40 > 0:14:44The costs to supermarkets could be huge and very detrimental.
0:14:44 > 0:14:46Who is the knock-on effect really going to hurt and my suspicion
0:14:46 > 0:14:49is that it would hit the employees of these companies.
0:14:49 > 0:14:52These jobs are now at threat.
0:14:52 > 0:14:55Achieving equal pay takes more than lawsuits.
0:14:55 > 0:14:57It requires changing the British workplace,
0:14:57 > 0:15:01by being more open about staff pay.
0:15:01 > 0:15:05That is why the government is making all organisations with more than 250
0:15:05 > 0:15:10employees publish their average wage difference between the sexes.
0:15:10 > 0:15:14It is called the gender pay gap.
0:15:14 > 0:15:19Nationally, on average, men are being paid 18% more than women.
0:15:19 > 0:15:23But the gap is far higher in places like the city.
0:15:23 > 0:15:26Dominated by top earning males.
0:15:26 > 0:15:33At Barclays, it is 48% and at HSBC, it is 59%.
0:15:33 > 0:15:37And then there is the airlines.
0:15:37 > 0:15:40Thousands of girls in Britain want to be air hostesses.
0:15:40 > 0:15:48It is one of the world's top glamour jobs.
0:15:50 > 0:15:54But you have certainly got to be a top flight charmer to win a top
0:15:54 > 0:15:55airline personality contest.
0:15:55 > 0:15:57This was the traditional image of women in the skies.
0:15:57 > 0:15:59And change is proving a slow process.
0:15:59 > 0:16:01The winner was to be presented with a brand-new car.
0:16:01 > 0:16:04And actor Edward Woodward, TV's Callan, was there to hand over
0:16:04 > 0:16:05the keys to the lucky girl.
0:16:05 > 0:16:07We are going to Lisbon today.
0:16:07 > 0:16:09# Come fly with me.
0:16:09 > 0:16:10# Let's fly...
0:16:10 > 0:16:12Marnie Munns is one of easyJet's female pilots,
0:16:12 > 0:16:14but there aren't enough like her.
0:16:14 > 0:16:19EasyJet has a high gender pay gap, over 50%, because most
0:16:19 > 0:16:21of their pilots are men.
0:16:21 > 0:16:24And they are the best paid employees, so there is a big gap
0:16:24 > 0:16:28across the company between what men and women earn.
0:16:28 > 0:16:33EasyJet is trying to train more Marnies.
0:16:33 > 0:16:35The original female intake was 6%.
0:16:35 > 0:16:37We then decided to double the figures from six
0:16:37 > 0:16:39to 12% in two years.
0:16:39 > 0:16:45We would like to recruit 20% by 2020 and that is what we are aiming for.
0:16:45 > 0:16:47At the moment, we are on target to do that.
0:16:47 > 0:16:51But 20% is not 50%, half and half, men and women, is that enough?
0:16:51 > 0:16:55It is not 50% but it is a start and 20% and we are going to be
0:16:55 > 0:16:58looking at other ways that we can increase that, but we have
0:16:58 > 0:17:02got to start somewhere and it is going to take time.
0:17:02 > 0:17:05EasyJet's new male boss has taken a pay cut to match his female
0:17:05 > 0:17:08predecessors' earnings.
0:17:08 > 0:17:10But it will take years and a change in culture and attitudes
0:17:10 > 0:17:16to reduce the gender pay gap across all industries.
0:17:16 > 0:17:19In the time that I hope that I retire, we are going to try
0:17:19 > 0:17:22and normalise seeing a woman pilot or a female pilot, so that
0:17:22 > 0:17:25eventually, this will be a completely normal image.
0:17:25 > 0:17:31# Pack up, let's fly away!
0:17:31 > 0:17:35But the gender pay gap figures do not tell us the full story.
0:17:35 > 0:17:38An organisation only has to declare the average difference
0:17:38 > 0:17:42between what it pays all its men and all its women.
0:17:42 > 0:17:45Not the hard details.
0:17:45 > 0:17:48Such as whether it is paying the same money to a man and a woman
0:17:48 > 0:17:53doing equal work or work of equal value.
0:17:53 > 0:17:55Which begs the question, does gender pay gap reporting
0:17:55 > 0:18:00really solve the problem?
0:18:00 > 0:18:02I wish it would solve the problem.
0:18:02 > 0:18:05But the simple answer is, no.
0:18:05 > 0:18:08It will be an important step forward, but it is not going to,
0:18:08 > 0:18:10for example, force employers to address the pay difference
0:18:10 > 0:18:15once that is reported.
0:18:15 > 0:18:17Press office.
0:18:17 > 0:18:18One moment, please.
0:18:18 > 0:18:21Could you talk to them?
0:18:21 > 0:18:23Get me London airport, will you?
0:18:23 > 0:18:25The BBC is very different today, from when virtually all the bosses
0:18:25 > 0:18:29and presenters were men.
0:18:29 > 0:18:31It's gender pay gap is 9%, half the national average and half
0:18:31 > 0:18:37what its commercial rival, ITN, has published.
0:18:37 > 0:18:41But many BBC women are still angry.
0:18:41 > 0:18:47Want do we want?
0:18:47 > 0:18:48Equal pay!
0:18:48 > 0:18:50When do we want it?
0:18:50 > 0:18:51Now!
0:18:51 > 0:18:53Hundreds of them came out on International Women's Day,
0:18:53 > 0:18:55to support the principle of equal pay at the BBC.
0:18:55 > 0:18:56One that I agree with.
0:18:56 > 0:18:59There was a hero's reception for Carrie Gracie, who had
0:18:59 > 0:19:01taken a dramatic stand, resigning her post as China editor.
0:19:01 > 0:19:09Carrie, Carrie, Carrie, Carrie!
0:19:10 > 0:19:12After four years in China, Carrie Gracie had discovered
0:19:12 > 0:19:19she was earning at least 50% less than two male international editors.
0:19:19 > 0:19:22The BBC offered her a pay rise, she turned it down,
0:19:22 > 0:19:27saying she wanted to fight for the principle of equality.
0:19:27 > 0:19:30I would not go to the wall, just for myself.
0:19:30 > 0:19:35I felt I knew by then that the BBC was not just doing this to me.
0:19:35 > 0:19:38They were doing this, to many, many women.
0:19:38 > 0:19:41It was denying their reality.
0:19:41 > 0:19:43It was breaking the law in respect of their employment.
0:19:43 > 0:19:46You resigned your post as China editor, but you didn't leave
0:19:46 > 0:19:48the BBC, you have still got a well-paid job.
0:19:48 > 0:19:49Yeah.
0:19:49 > 0:19:51People would say you haven't really made a sacrifice,
0:19:51 > 0:19:53you have taken a stand, but what does it mean?
0:19:53 > 0:19:55In a way, they are right.
0:19:55 > 0:19:56I haven't made a sacrifice.
0:19:56 > 0:19:58I feel that...
0:19:58 > 0:20:00This is not yet done.
0:20:00 > 0:20:08I may still have to leave the BBC.
0:20:12 > 0:20:14Carrie Gracie's colleagues went to Parliament to support her
0:20:14 > 0:20:19when she and BBC management were summoned there by MPs.
0:20:19 > 0:20:23They wanted to know if public money had been misused in not paying
0:20:23 > 0:20:27men and women equally.
0:20:27 > 0:20:29They don't trust management.
0:20:29 > 0:20:32They have to put their hands on the table at all times now.
0:20:32 > 0:20:33We need full transparency in the BBC.
0:20:33 > 0:20:35Carrie Gracie's case is astonishing.
0:20:35 > 0:20:38There are only five international editors, so how can it be that one
0:20:38 > 0:20:41of them gets underpaid for a couple of years and no one notices?
0:20:41 > 0:20:42I think...
0:20:42 > 0:20:47This happened because no one was interested, no one cared.
0:20:47 > 0:20:49And they just let it happen.
0:20:49 > 0:20:50I do think that it was an oversight.
0:20:50 > 0:20:52Absolutely, I do.
0:20:52 > 0:20:57And we should have addressed that case earlier and we admit that.
0:20:57 > 0:20:58Why?
0:20:58 > 0:21:02Why has this happened?
0:21:02 > 0:21:04Why are the women not being paid the same as the men?
0:21:04 > 0:21:08Maxine Mawhinney had just left the BBC after 20 years when the list
0:21:08 > 0:21:11of top earning stars was published.
0:21:11 > 0:21:14I do know that I have sat beside men, on TV,
0:21:14 > 0:21:17doing the same job, probably the same experience or I might have
0:21:17 > 0:21:19even been more experienced, and I know they were earning
0:21:19 > 0:21:22more than me.
0:21:22 > 0:21:23Did they tell you?
0:21:23 > 0:21:26Yes.
0:21:26 > 0:21:27Substantially more?
0:21:27 > 0:21:29Substantially more.
0:21:29 > 0:21:32I think there is a lot of truth in the fact that women will not push
0:21:32 > 0:21:35themselves forward as much.
0:21:35 > 0:21:38We will accept more, probably, rather than putting our hands up,
0:21:38 > 0:21:44but that is changing, Jane, it is really changing.
0:21:44 > 0:21:46And women have had enough.
0:21:46 > 0:21:50We have really had enough.
0:21:50 > 0:21:53There has been no admission that the BBC has breached equal pay law.
0:21:53 > 0:21:56But after the parliamentary hearing, there were significant
0:21:56 > 0:22:00developments, behind the scenes.
0:22:00 > 0:22:03I have spoken to half a dozen women who appear here on air at the BBC,
0:22:03 > 0:22:06who claim they haven't been paid equally to men doing
0:22:06 > 0:22:10comparable jobs.
0:22:10 > 0:22:13Over the past few weeks, the BBC has begun to offer these
0:22:13 > 0:22:18women what it calls pay revisions.
0:22:18 > 0:22:19In other words, more money.
0:22:19 > 0:22:26In one case, up to 50% more.
0:22:26 > 0:22:29That sounds to me as if it is admitting they have not been paid
0:22:29 > 0:22:30equally in the past.
0:22:30 > 0:22:31It is.
0:22:31 > 0:22:33I accept that.
0:22:33 > 0:22:35That we are admitting that we did not pay people fairly
0:22:35 > 0:22:38or equally in the past, yes, which is why we are looking
0:22:38 > 0:22:41at all those cases that people are bringing to us,
0:22:41 > 0:22:43going back over a number of months and years
0:22:43 > 0:22:46and we will address them all.
0:22:46 > 0:22:48That does not necessarily mean that we are going to agree
0:22:48 > 0:22:51with everybody, in every case that they bring.
0:22:51 > 0:22:54When you're in a talent business, there are many, many reasons
0:22:54 > 0:22:59as to why people might be paid slightly differently.
0:22:59 > 0:23:01It was the BBC News presenters who grabbed the headlines,
0:23:01 > 0:23:09but there have been concerns raised about BBC Sport and now, tennis.
0:23:09 > 0:23:12What is at the root of it do you think, women don't argue
0:23:12 > 0:23:14enough for equal pay?
0:23:14 > 0:23:17You can argue all you want, but we know what is at the root,
0:23:17 > 0:23:20it is still the good old boys network.
0:23:20 > 0:23:23And, you know, the bottom line is that male voices are valued more
0:23:23 > 0:23:28than women's voices.
0:23:28 > 0:23:30People ask where there days...
0:23:30 > 0:23:33John has a more central role in the whole of the BBC's coverage
0:23:33 > 0:23:38of Wimbledon and none of this is around gender.
0:23:38 > 0:23:40This is around what is the role that these people are actually
0:23:40 > 0:23:43performing for the tournament.
0:23:43 > 0:23:45But he doesn't do ten times as much as Martina Navratilova.
0:23:45 > 0:23:47How can that be justified, then?
0:23:47 > 0:23:50That difference?
0:23:50 > 0:23:53Because time spent doing the work is only one factor in what might
0:23:53 > 0:23:58determine what you pay people.
0:23:58 > 0:24:00Parliament thinks that more transparency, knowing what people
0:24:00 > 0:24:05earn, will deliver equal pay.
0:24:05 > 0:24:08And that means forcing the BBC to reveal all its payments.
0:24:08 > 0:24:10To stars like David Dimbleby and Alan Sugar.
0:24:10 > 0:24:12You're fired.
0:24:12 > 0:24:17And those on Strictly, Eastenders and many other shows.
0:24:17 > 0:24:19Their fees are confidential, because they work through
0:24:19 > 0:24:24independent production companies.
0:24:24 > 0:24:27We would be in the ridiculous situation, for example,
0:24:27 > 0:24:30where the pay of the judges on Strictly Come Dancing would no
0:24:30 > 0:24:33longer be declared and I think the way to resolve it is to make
0:24:33 > 0:24:35the salaries public, whether they are being paid
0:24:35 > 0:24:37directly by the BBC or through a production company.
0:24:37 > 0:24:40If the BBC refuses to do that and they can do,
0:24:40 > 0:24:43because the Charter does not require them, I think we should ask
0:24:43 > 0:24:46the National Audit Office to go in and to order this and to report
0:24:46 > 0:24:47back to Parliament.
0:24:47 > 0:24:49The expansion of Netflix, Amazon, Apple TV...
0:24:49 > 0:24:55the BBC is in a big fight here, for the best ideas, the best talent.
0:24:55 > 0:24:58If we are going to really make it difficult for the independents
0:24:58 > 0:25:01to come and work for the BBC, by subjecting all the people
0:25:01 > 0:25:04who work on it, to the same level of scrutiny that our existing stars
0:25:04 > 0:25:07are, then I don't think that we are going to be producing
0:25:07 > 0:25:12the best programmes.
0:25:12 > 0:25:15On the current battle over equal pay, the BBC points
0:25:15 > 0:25:17to an independent report, which found there was no
0:25:17 > 0:25:23gender bias in on air pay decisions at the Corporation.
0:25:23 > 0:25:25But that won't protect them from possible legal action
0:25:25 > 0:25:28and potentially big bills.
0:25:28 > 0:25:33Do you think the BBC have acted illegally in your case.
0:25:33 > 0:25:34Yes.
0:25:34 > 0:25:35Will you take legal action?
0:25:35 > 0:25:39That is a very hard question.
0:25:39 > 0:25:41Because...
0:25:41 > 0:25:44I don't want any money.
0:25:44 > 0:25:47The BBC is short of money.
0:25:47 > 0:25:51The BBC still has time to do the right thing.
0:25:51 > 0:25:55All I am asking of the BBC is that it can say that for the four
0:25:55 > 0:25:58years that I was China editor, my work was of equal value
0:25:58 > 0:26:01to that of my male peers.
0:26:01 > 0:26:04Would you take a case against the BBC for what you believe
0:26:04 > 0:26:07to be an unequal pay situation?
0:26:07 > 0:26:10If, as some of my other colleagues are exploring at the moment,
0:26:10 > 0:26:14if I find that I was entitled to have been paid at a different
0:26:14 > 0:26:22rate, during the time I was there, of course I would.
0:26:22 > 0:26:23It is a matter of law.
0:26:23 > 0:26:26They are required in law to pay people the same rate
0:26:26 > 0:26:27for jobs of equal value.
0:26:27 > 0:26:31What we have seen, I think, so far, is that the BBC are not doing that.
0:26:31 > 0:26:34They have to demonstrate how they are complying with the law,
0:26:34 > 0:26:37how they have settled cases people have brought to them where they have
0:26:37 > 0:26:39been treated unfairly, and what mechanisms they are going
0:26:39 > 0:26:42to put in place to make sure that people are consistently
0:26:42 > 0:26:44paid in the future.
0:26:44 > 0:26:47Has the BBC acted illegally in the case of Carrie Gracie
0:26:47 > 0:26:50and the issue of equal pay?
0:26:50 > 0:26:57We don't believe we have acted illegally in regard to equal pay.
0:26:57 > 0:26:59That doesn't mean, however, that there won't be instances
0:26:59 > 0:27:04and cases where there is inequality.
0:27:04 > 0:27:07And we need to address those.
0:27:07 > 0:27:10But if there is inequality, it means they are not being paid equally
0:27:10 > 0:27:11and that is breaking the law.
0:27:11 > 0:27:15Well, the law says work of equal value and we need to judge what that
0:27:15 > 0:27:23equal value actually means under the terms of the law.
0:27:23 > 0:27:26In my journey around the country, I have seen a new spirit
0:27:26 > 0:27:30and determination amongst the women I have met.
0:27:30 > 0:27:31We are not little ladies any more.
0:27:31 > 0:27:34We do just as much hard work.
0:27:34 > 0:27:37What is so special about a man, that he can earn more
0:27:37 > 0:27:40money than a woman?
0:27:40 > 0:27:42We need more women, no matter what it is,
0:27:42 > 0:27:45to stand up and be, like, this isn't all right.
0:27:45 > 0:27:48I think they have got away with it for far too long.
0:27:48 > 0:27:50What will you do now when it comes to Wimbledon?
0:27:50 > 0:27:52Will you be asking for more money?
0:27:52 > 0:27:53You'd better believe it!
0:27:53 > 0:27:56I think I will leave it up to my agent, who is very capable,
0:27:56 > 0:27:59but you shouldn't be paying people more because they have a really
0:27:59 > 0:28:02great agent or because they scream a lot, you should pay them
0:28:02 > 0:28:04because it is the right thing to do.
0:28:04 > 0:28:10It is only fair.
0:28:10 > 0:28:12With the deadline less than three weeks away,
0:28:12 > 0:28:14more than two thirds of organisations in Britain have yet
0:28:14 > 0:28:16to report their gender pay gap.
0:28:16 > 0:28:19There may be more shocking figures yet to come.
0:28:19 > 0:28:22Will it take another 50 years before a woman can know she has
0:28:22 > 0:28:24been paid like a man?
0:28:24 > 0:28:32MUSIC: Blondie - 'Atomic'.