6:53:10 > 6:53:12Three, two, one...
6:53:12 > 6:53:17It is Britain's most iconic brand,
6:53:17 > 6:53:21but has Rolls-Royce's success been fuelled by corruption?
6:53:22 > 6:53:25Their business model has been based on
6:53:25 > 6:53:28the systematic use of agents or middlemen
6:53:28 > 6:53:32to effectively try and bribe their way to contracts.
6:53:32 > 6:53:36We travel to places where Rolls-Royce
6:53:36 > 6:53:38is accused of paying bribes.
6:53:38 > 6:53:41He states the names of several companies
6:53:41 > 6:53:43that he received bribes from.
6:53:43 > 6:53:46One of those companies is Rolls-Royce.
6:53:46 > 6:53:52'We find the middleman who reveals how corruption wins business.'
6:53:52 > 6:53:55Wouldn't it be reasonable, then, for Rolls-Royce to say,
6:53:55 > 6:53:56"We don't know what they were doing"?
6:53:56 > 6:53:59They had to have known, they would have known.
6:53:59 > 6:54:01It's just the way it works.
6:54:01 > 6:54:02Mr Ginger?
6:54:02 > 6:54:05'And why would an arms salesman
6:54:05 > 6:54:08'pay a bag full of cash into a Swiss bank?'
6:54:08 > 6:54:11Was the money that went into your Swiss account a bribe?
6:54:11 > 6:54:14Was the money that went into that Swiss account,
6:54:14 > 6:54:16- was that a bribe, sir? - Don't be ridiculous!
6:54:28 > 6:54:31CROWD CHANTS
6:54:40 > 6:54:43'People are on the streets in Rio.
6:54:46 > 6:54:49'The Brazilian President has just been forced from office
6:54:49 > 6:54:51'and the country is divided.'
6:54:51 > 6:54:53Fora Temer!
6:54:53 > 6:54:57'It is a political crisis caused by corruption.
6:54:57 > 6:55:02'For years, politicians and state officials have been taking bribes.'
6:55:04 > 6:55:08I never saw my countrymen so angry as in the last couple of years.
6:55:09 > 6:55:14If you are afraid of losing your job and then you watch TV and you see
6:55:14 > 6:55:17all these guys taking millions of dollars in bribes,
6:55:17 > 6:55:20you are going to feel angry - very, very angry.
6:55:24 > 6:55:26'Now the truth is coming out
6:55:26 > 6:55:30'and it doesn't look good for Rolls-Royce.
6:55:34 > 6:55:38'It all centres on Brazil's state oil company.
6:55:38 > 6:55:41'It's called Petrobras and it's huge.'
6:55:43 > 6:55:48This gives you a sense of the scale of the Petrobras operation.
6:55:48 > 6:55:51This facility is just off the coast of Rio.
6:55:51 > 6:55:54Petrobras is one of the biggest companies in South America,
6:55:54 > 6:55:58it produces two million barrels of oil every day
6:55:58 > 6:56:00and it does that using equipment
6:56:00 > 6:56:04supplied by foreign companies, like Rolls-Royce.
6:56:05 > 6:56:08'For Rolls-Royce, this was big business.
6:56:08 > 6:56:13'One contract alone was worth 100 million.
6:56:13 > 6:56:18'But to win contracts like this, companies were paying bribes.'
6:56:21 > 6:56:25TRANSLATION:
6:56:31 > 6:56:33'This is Pedro Barusco,
6:56:33 > 6:56:38'one of the Petrobras executives who handled the bribes.'
6:56:46 > 6:56:51'He's done a deal and named the companies who paid bribes.
6:56:51 > 6:56:53'This is the first time
6:56:53 > 6:56:56'the prosecutor has spoken about Rolls-Royce and Barusco.'
6:56:56 > 6:57:00I could point you towards a deposition
6:57:00 > 6:57:03where he states the names of several companies
6:57:03 > 6:57:08that he received bribes from. One of those companies is Rolls-Royce.
6:57:10 > 6:57:15'And Barusco told the authorities about that 100 million contract.'
6:57:17 > 6:57:20Rolls-Royce made some payments.
6:57:20 > 6:57:23He does not remember exactly who benefited
6:57:23 > 6:57:25from the division of bribes,
6:57:25 > 6:57:30but remembers he got at least 200,000 US dollars.
6:57:30 > 6:57:35'The Rolls-Royce bribes were paid by a middleman.
6:57:35 > 6:57:38'It was the standard way of moving the corrupt money.'
6:57:40 > 6:57:44With the foreign companies, the most common means to pay bribes
6:57:44 > 6:57:47would be to hire a consultant,
6:57:47 > 6:57:51and that person would be responsible to deliver the money
6:57:51 > 6:57:54to Petrobras directors or the politicians.
6:57:57 > 6:58:02'Prosecutors in Brazil say Rolls-Royce is co-operating.
6:58:04 > 6:58:07'But its reputation here has been badly damaged.'
6:58:09 > 6:58:12What do you think, then, of a company like Rolls-Royce
6:58:12 > 6:58:15that's paying bribes to get contracts?
6:58:15 > 6:58:17I think they are a big part of the problem.
6:58:17 > 6:58:20Perhaps even a bigger part than the Brazilian government is,
6:58:20 > 6:58:23in the sense that... Come on! We're talking about
6:58:23 > 6:58:25VERY rich companies, you know, very powerful.
6:58:25 > 6:58:28They operate everywhere across the globe.
6:58:28 > 6:58:31So they come to Brazil to do that?!
6:58:31 > 6:58:34They are just like the bad companies in Brazil.
6:58:34 > 6:58:36I mean, that's awful!
6:58:42 > 6:58:47'So how has Rolls-Royce ended up in this position?
6:58:49 > 6:58:53'The company doesn't make cars any more - that was sold to BMW.
6:58:58 > 6:59:03'This promotional video shows what Rolls-Royce is famous for now -
6:59:03 > 6:59:06'building engines for aircraft.
6:59:06 > 6:59:10'It employs 23,000 people in the UK.'
6:59:10 > 6:59:15Every day, aircraft are taking off with British wings,
6:59:15 > 6:59:18British landing gear, Rolls-Royce engines.
6:59:18 > 6:59:21We can be incredibly proud of this industry.
6:59:23 > 6:59:27'Up until a couple of years ago, growth was spectacular.
6:59:27 > 6:59:32'In 15 years, the company's sales tripled,
6:59:32 > 6:59:34'profits increased fivefold.'
6:59:34 > 6:59:37Rolls-Royce is that sort of Great British tradition
6:59:37 > 6:59:41of engineering excellence which I think people really respect.
6:59:41 > 6:59:42It is a respected and trusted brand.
6:59:42 > 6:59:45The company has been through phenomenal growth.
6:59:45 > 6:59:49It entered into new markets, it went into new geographic territories
6:59:49 > 6:59:51and it became a real global power.
6:59:55 > 6:59:58'But serious questions are being asked
6:59:58 > 7:00:02'about just how Rolls-Royce managed to grow so quickly.
7:00:03 > 7:00:05'Alongside The Guardian newspaper,
7:00:05 > 7:00:08'we've been investigating the company.'
7:00:09 > 7:00:13We've got evidence that Rolls-Royce was using dubious middlemen
7:00:13 > 7:00:18to win contracts in countries where corruption was widespread.
7:00:18 > 7:00:21One of Britain's most prestigious companies
7:00:21 > 7:00:23was bribing its way around the world.
7:00:31 > 7:00:36'In 2013, the Serious Fraud Office in the UK started investigating
7:00:36 > 7:00:40'the way Rolls-Royce had won contracts for jet engines.
7:00:42 > 7:00:44'A former Rolls-Royce employee
7:00:44 > 7:00:48'claimed big bribes had been paid in Indonesia.
7:00:48 > 7:00:50'He said 20 million was given
7:00:50 > 7:00:54'to the former president's son Tommy Suharto
7:00:54 > 7:00:59'to make sure Indonesia's main airline used Rolls-Royce engines.'
7:01:01 > 7:01:05The fact that there is credible evidence from inside the company
7:01:05 > 7:01:07that the company is paying bribes
7:01:07 > 7:01:10to people very closely linked to senior politicians
7:01:10 > 7:01:15suggests, in all instances, prima facie evidence of corruption.
7:01:18 > 7:01:23'Tommy Suharto has denied the allegations, but in 2011,
7:01:23 > 7:01:27'a second whistle-blower, using the cover name Soaringdragon,
7:01:27 > 7:01:31'suggested Rolls-Royce had paid bribes
7:01:31 > 7:01:34'to win contracts at two airlines in China.
7:01:35 > 7:01:37'According to Soaringdragon,
7:01:37 > 7:01:41'a middleman paid bribes to a Chinese airline executive.'
7:01:45 > 7:01:47The Chinese authorities investigated
7:01:47 > 7:01:52and the airline executive involved was convicted of taking bribes.
7:01:52 > 7:01:55Now, he has been jailed for life,
7:01:55 > 7:01:58but no action has been taken against Rolls-Royce.
7:02:01 > 7:02:04'Crucial parts of the case have been kept secret,
7:02:04 > 7:02:08'including the name of the company paying the bribes,
7:02:08 > 7:02:13'but Rolls-Royce secured contracts worth 2 billion
7:02:13 > 7:02:15'from two Chinese airlines
7:02:15 > 7:02:18'in the same period that the bribes were paid.'
7:02:19 > 7:02:21If one puts the information
7:02:21 > 7:02:24that we have been able to glean from the court case,
7:02:24 > 7:02:28in which someone was sentenced to a life term for corruption,
7:02:28 > 7:02:31if we look at the sort of aircraft involved,
7:02:31 > 7:02:34the sorts of engines that that aircraft uses,
7:02:34 > 7:02:38if we look at the allegations made by Soaringdragon,
7:02:38 > 7:02:41that were instrumental to this court case,
7:02:41 > 7:02:44all of those things together point to Rolls-Royce.
7:02:49 > 7:02:52'Rolls-Royce says it's fully co-operating with the authorities
7:02:52 > 7:02:56'and cannot comment on ongoing investigations.
7:02:58 > 7:02:59'It says it completed
7:02:59 > 7:03:02'a thorough review of its anti-corruption policies,
7:03:02 > 7:03:06'including the use of advisers and intermediaries.
7:03:15 > 7:03:17'Rolls-Royce has sold equipment
7:03:17 > 7:03:21'in some of the most corrupt countries on the planet.
7:03:23 > 7:03:25'It used middlemen to help.
7:03:29 > 7:03:31'I've come to the south of France
7:03:31 > 7:03:33'to meet someone who knows how it works.'
7:03:39 > 7:03:42Right now, I'm probably the only guy that is stepping up to the plate,
7:03:42 > 7:03:44kind of giving you a kind of inside look
7:03:44 > 7:03:47from my perspective on how it worked when I was there.
7:03:47 > 7:03:53'Lindsey Mitchell used to work for a Monaco-based company called Unioil.
7:03:53 > 7:03:58'It's also under investigation by the Serious Fraud Office.'
7:03:58 > 7:04:01You know, you became the guy that had the connections.
7:04:01 > 7:04:04'Unioil worked for Rolls-Royce
7:04:04 > 7:04:08'in countries like Iraq, Angola and Kazakhstan.'
7:04:08 > 7:04:11Just beyond this FedEx truck, on the right-hand side,
7:04:11 > 7:04:14is the Unioil office.
7:04:14 > 7:04:17- Just down there? - Yeah. Right in there.
7:04:17 > 7:04:21'This is the first time Lindsey has talked about
7:04:21 > 7:04:23'the corruption he saw when he worked here.'
7:04:23 > 7:04:25Strange to see it again?
7:04:25 > 7:04:26Very strange.
7:04:26 > 7:04:30'He is about to make an extraordinary confession.
7:04:30 > 7:04:35'He bribed an oil official to try to help a client win business.'
7:04:36 > 7:04:39I don't call it a bribe, I call it a facility payment or commission,
7:04:39 > 7:04:42but in layman terms, it would be called a bribe.
7:04:45 > 7:04:49I...made the payment at the gentleman's house
7:04:49 > 7:04:52at 11 o'clock at night, dropped it off.
7:04:52 > 7:04:54How heavy was the envelope?
7:04:54 > 7:04:56Thick.
7:04:56 > 7:04:58- Thick with money?- Yeah.
7:04:58 > 7:05:01I just dropped it off, "Here is your gift," yeah.
7:05:01 > 7:05:02And what did he say?
7:05:02 > 7:05:04"Thank you, let's have a coffee."
7:05:04 > 7:05:06So we had a coffee.
7:05:06 > 7:05:08And that's it?
7:05:08 > 7:05:09- That's it.- That how it works?
7:05:09 > 7:05:11That's how it works.
7:05:11 > 7:05:13But Unioil was happy to pay that bribe?
7:05:14 > 7:05:16They were happy to pay the facility payment.
7:05:17 > 7:05:21'Rolls-Royce wasn't one of Lindsey's clients,
7:05:21 > 7:05:26'but he believes Unioil paid bribes for Rolls-Royce too.'
7:05:26 > 7:05:29If they are representing Rolls-Royce,
7:05:29 > 7:05:31it would be Unioil's responsibility
7:05:31 > 7:05:34to make sure that the commissions, the facility payments,
7:05:34 > 7:05:36and/or you want call them bribes,
7:05:36 > 7:05:39were made to the proper officials to make the...
7:05:39 > 7:05:40er...
7:05:40 > 7:05:42the sale.
7:05:42 > 7:05:44Would it be reasonable, then, for Rolls-Royce to say,
7:05:44 > 7:05:47"Look, we went to Unioil to get us work,
7:05:47 > 7:05:49"we don't know what they were doing"?
7:05:49 > 7:05:51They had to have known, they would have known.
7:05:51 > 7:05:55Someone within the management of Rolls-Royce or any other company
7:05:55 > 7:05:58that Unioil represented knew there was facility payments
7:05:58 > 7:06:00or commissions being paid to get business.
7:06:03 > 7:06:04It's just the way it works.
7:06:08 > 7:06:11'There is evidence that appears to support what Lindsey is saying.
7:06:13 > 7:06:17'Unioil e-mails that were leaked to the Fairfax Media Group
7:06:17 > 7:06:21'suggest paying bribes was commonplace.
7:06:21 > 7:06:23'And some involve Rolls-Royce.
7:06:26 > 7:06:31'This document shows Unioil put aside 284,000
7:06:31 > 7:06:36'for middlemen or sub-agents on a Rolls-Royce job in Iraq.
7:06:36 > 7:06:39'And this e-mail shows how gifts were bought
7:06:39 > 7:06:42'for an official involved with the contract.'
7:06:44 > 7:06:48Mr X is our key contact to obtaining the current contract
7:06:48 > 7:06:51valued at 17 million,
7:06:51 > 7:06:55and I am pursuing him hard for the next set of turbines
7:06:55 > 7:06:59valued in excess of 23 million.
7:06:59 > 7:07:04'The e-mails show that Unioil took the official shopping in London,
7:07:04 > 7:07:09'spending more than 2,000 on luxury goods.
7:07:09 > 7:07:12'They even spell out why they are doing it.'
7:07:12 > 7:07:17Spending 2,684 on a key decision-maker
7:07:17 > 7:07:20is worth 100 times that value,
7:07:20 > 7:07:24without which we would have no contract in our hands now.
7:07:24 > 7:07:28The value of that jacket starts to show now.
7:07:30 > 7:07:33"Spending 2,700 on a key decision-maker
7:07:33 > 7:07:35"is worth 100 times that value,
7:07:35 > 7:07:38"without which we would have no contract in our hands now."
7:07:38 > 7:07:42- These are all internal Unioil e-mails?- That's right.
7:07:42 > 7:07:46They refer to people who are working on Rolls-Royce accounts.
7:07:46 > 7:07:50'We showed the evidence to a bribery expert.'
7:07:51 > 7:07:53The e-mail is describing
7:07:53 > 7:07:56gifts entirely intended to secure business.
7:07:56 > 7:07:59When there's quite clearly stated
7:07:59 > 7:08:03the object of giving the gifts is to get access to a decision-maker
7:08:03 > 7:08:06who might otherwise not favour your business,
7:08:06 > 7:08:11then it plainly is intended to induce a positive decision.
7:08:11 > 7:08:14Some of the numbers are quite small, just over 2,000,
7:08:14 > 7:08:16things like a leather jacket.
7:08:16 > 7:08:18It seems very small amounts.
7:08:18 > 7:08:19It doesn't matter.
7:08:19 > 7:08:22What matters is the purpose for which the gift is given.
7:08:22 > 7:08:27If the expectation is, and plainly what these e-mails reveal,
7:08:27 > 7:08:29is that these things were done
7:08:29 > 7:08:32with a clear expectation of business being granted,
7:08:32 > 7:08:33that's bribery.
7:08:36 > 7:08:41'Unioil told us any allegations of corruption are denied
7:08:41 > 7:08:45'and it would be inappropriate to make further comment
7:08:45 > 7:08:47'because of the ongoing investigation.
7:08:47 > 7:08:50'The company...'
7:09:12 > 7:09:15Rolls-Royce faces questions around the world
7:09:15 > 7:09:17about the way it does business,
7:09:17 > 7:09:20but some of the biggest are here in India.
7:09:23 > 7:09:27'Rolls-Royce has already been caught out here.
7:09:27 > 7:09:33'In 2014, it offered to pay back £1.8 million commission
7:09:33 > 7:09:36'that it had secretly paid to a middleman.'
7:09:38 > 7:09:40Rolls-Royce actually wrote,
7:09:40 > 7:09:44offering the return of the money that it had paid in those deals.
7:09:44 > 7:09:45Is the suggestion, then,
7:09:45 > 7:09:48that there were bribes involved, that there were kickbacks?
7:09:48 > 7:09:51Why was the agent being paid that kind of money
7:09:51 > 7:09:53if it was not something illegal?
7:09:59 > 7:10:04'The most serious questions relate to the biggest deals
7:10:04 > 7:10:08'and, for Rolls-Royce, they're often defence contracts.'
7:10:10 > 7:10:16No big defence deal takes place without money changing hands.
7:10:16 > 7:10:18Defence deals are big deals.
7:10:18 > 7:10:21Most of government consists of small-ticket items,
7:10:21 > 7:10:23building a bridge here, or building a road there,
7:10:23 > 7:10:25but once you come to defence,
7:10:25 > 7:10:28you suddenly get into multi-million dollars,
7:10:28 > 7:10:30or 10 billion, 5 billion,
7:10:30 > 7:10:31so the payoffs there are huge.
7:10:41 > 7:10:45CROWD CHEERS
7:10:45 > 7:10:50'Rolls-Royce supplies engines for the Hawk jet used by the Red Arrows.
7:10:53 > 7:10:57'The Indian government bought 123 of them
7:10:57 > 7:11:02'and that earned Rolls-Royce around £400 million.
7:11:02 > 7:11:05'David Cameron was in India to celebrate.
7:11:08 > 7:11:12'It's just one of Rolls-Royce's defence deals in India
7:11:12 > 7:11:18'and, once again, they are said to involve a secretive middleman.
7:11:18 > 7:11:22'He is a London-based billionaire who has built a business empire -
7:11:22 > 7:11:25'Sudhir Choudhrie. Here he is,
7:11:25 > 7:11:30'picking up a business achievement award from Theresa May.'
7:11:31 > 7:11:34The entire community was there, the Asian community,
7:11:34 > 7:11:38and everyone was very delightful.
7:11:38 > 7:11:39'The Choudhrie family
7:11:39 > 7:11:44'has given more than £1.6 million to the Liberal Democrats
7:11:44 > 7:11:48'and Mr Choudhrie is now an adviser on India
7:11:48 > 7:11:51'to party leader Tim Farron.'
7:11:51 > 7:11:54Sudhir Choudhrie is a most important defence agent in India
7:11:54 > 7:11:58and he probably is among the world's most powerful arms agents today.
7:11:58 > 7:12:00He is a global figure.
7:12:00 > 7:12:04We are talking about billions of dollars of money worth of deals.
7:12:04 > 7:12:07'But Sudhir Choudhrie
7:12:07 > 7:12:11'was not registered as a defence agent in India.
7:12:11 > 7:12:15'It is illegal to pay secret middlemen to win defence contracts,
7:12:15 > 7:12:19'but that seems to be what Rolls-Royce was doing.'
7:12:20 > 7:12:24When the defence scam surfaced in this country,
7:12:24 > 7:12:27the ministry and the government banned agents
7:12:27 > 7:12:30and they said companies have to deal
7:12:30 > 7:12:33through recognised offices opened in the country.
7:12:33 > 7:12:37They are not allowed to deal through these little agents, you know,
7:12:37 > 7:12:41who represent opportunities for unseen diversion of funds.
7:12:50 > 7:12:56'A man who knows India's murky world of agents agreed to meet me.
7:13:02 > 7:13:05'He wanted to remain anonymous, but what he told us
7:13:05 > 7:13:11'links Sudhir Choudhrie to both Rolls-Royce and the Hawk deal.'
7:13:19 > 7:13:22Does Sudhir Choudhrie work for Rolls-Royce?
7:13:22 > 7:13:26I was approached by someone from the Sudhir Choudhrie team in India.
7:13:26 > 7:13:29They wanted an introduction to government.
7:13:29 > 7:13:31It was to do with the Hawk deal.
7:13:31 > 7:13:34They were representing Sudhir Choudhrie, it was very clear.
7:13:40 > 7:13:43Why would Rolls-Royce hire such a guy?
7:13:43 > 7:13:46Why does it need a consultant with a shady background?
7:13:48 > 7:13:54'Panorama understands Rolls-Royce secretly paid around £10 million
7:13:54 > 7:13:57'to companies owned by the Choudhrie family.
7:13:57 > 7:14:02'Now, Mr Choudhrie denies being paid by Rolls-Royce,
7:14:02 > 7:14:05'but he hasn't answered our question
7:14:05 > 7:14:08'about payments going to family companies.
7:14:18 > 7:14:20'We've also found out
7:14:20 > 7:14:24'what the Indian authorities think of Mr Choudhrie.
7:14:24 > 7:14:26'Rolls-Royce's man in India
7:14:26 > 7:14:30'is officially suspected of corrupt or irregular practices.'
7:14:33 > 7:14:36We've got hold of the government's secret list
7:14:36 > 7:14:38of undesirable contact men.
7:14:38 > 7:14:42Now, it warns civil servants and government ministers
7:14:42 > 7:14:46to take extra care when dealing with such unscrupulous persons.
7:14:46 > 7:14:49Sudhir Choudhrie is on that list.
7:14:53 > 7:14:55It's a blacklist of men with whom
7:14:55 > 7:14:58government employees or officials should not deal with,
7:14:58 > 7:15:02men who should not be given any contracts, and Sudhir Choudhrie
7:15:02 > 7:15:05has had a very prominent position in the UCM list for years.
7:15:05 > 7:15:06Why is he on the list?
7:15:06 > 7:15:10For the fact that he is known and is accused of
7:15:10 > 7:15:12manipulating defence procurement.
7:15:14 > 7:15:19So why was Rolls-Royce involved with someone like Sudhir Choudhrie?
7:15:22 > 7:15:26For a company like Rolls-Royce to be using, as a middleman,
7:15:26 > 7:15:29somebody who clearly has a very poor reputation
7:15:29 > 7:15:32suggests that they have very few scruples
7:15:32 > 7:15:35about the way they go about their practice of business in India.
7:15:40 > 7:15:42'Mr Choudhrie's lawyers told us he...
7:15:49 > 7:15:51'And on the Undesirable Contact Men list,
7:15:51 > 7:15:53'they said he has...
7:15:57 > 7:16:02'In 2014, Sudhir Choudhrie was arrested in the UK as part of
7:16:02 > 7:16:06'that Serious Fraud Office investigation into Rolls-Royce.
7:16:06 > 7:16:11'His son Bhanu Choudhrie was arrested, too.
7:16:11 > 7:16:14'Both men were released without charge.
7:16:16 > 7:16:19'They both own houses in this exclusive London square.'
7:16:21 > 7:16:24We have found evidence that suggests Bhanu Choudhrie
7:16:24 > 7:16:29may have helped Rolls-Royce win that multi-million-pound Hawk deal
7:16:29 > 7:16:34and it involves paying what on the face of it looks like a bribe.
7:16:38 > 7:16:41'It centres on this man, Peter Ginger.
7:16:44 > 7:16:46'He played a key role in selling
7:16:46 > 7:16:51'military jets with Rolls-Royce engines to the Indian government.
7:16:55 > 7:16:59'We've discovered that Mr Ginger visited Switzerland
7:16:59 > 7:17:02'with Bhanu Choudhrie in 2007.
7:17:02 > 7:17:06'He opened a Swiss bank account under the name of Portsmouth
7:17:06 > 7:17:10'and paid in a large quantity of cash.
7:17:10 > 7:17:13'His account later showed a million Swiss francs.
7:17:19 > 7:17:22'A source at the bank agreed to speak to us anonymously.'
7:17:24 > 7:17:26The documents do show one bank account
7:17:26 > 7:17:29containing hundreds of thousands of Swiss francs
7:17:29 > 7:17:31opened for Peter Ginger.
7:17:31 > 7:17:35I understand that Peter Ginger lodged all of this money in one go,
7:17:35 > 7:17:37in cash, in Switzerland.
7:17:41 > 7:17:46'So did all that cash have anything to do with Rolls-Royce?
7:17:46 > 7:17:50'We asked Peter Ginger what he was doing in Switzerland
7:17:50 > 7:17:55'with Bhanu Choudhrie, the son of Rolls-Royce's man in India...'
7:17:55 > 7:17:56Sorry, sir.
7:17:56 > 7:17:59'..but he wouldn't answer the question...'
7:17:59 > 7:18:01So, Mr Ginger, I think, is just over here.
7:18:01 > 7:18:04'..so I caught up with him for a chat.'
7:18:04 > 7:18:06Mr Ginger?
7:18:06 > 7:18:08Hiya, I'm Richard Bilton from BBC Panorama.
7:18:08 > 7:18:10Can I ask you a quick question?
7:18:10 > 7:18:12- You...- No, I can't talk to you,
7:18:12 > 7:18:14you know I can't talk to you, and please take me off camera.
7:18:14 > 7:18:17You put cash worth hundreds of thousands of pounds in your Swiss...
7:18:17 > 7:18:19- No, I'm not... - Was that a bribe, sir?
7:18:19 > 7:18:22- Don't be ridiculous!- Was it a bribe? Now's your chance to tell us.
7:18:22 > 7:18:24I'm interested. Don't touch that, just tell me the truth.
7:18:24 > 7:18:26Did you...? Was that a bribe? Did that money come from...?
7:18:26 > 7:18:29I am... Look, you've asked me the questions,
7:18:29 > 7:18:31it's now with my lawyer.
7:18:31 > 7:18:35I'm not answering any questions, my lawyer will answer the questions.
7:18:35 > 7:18:37You've received a letter from him.
7:18:37 > 7:18:40'His lawyer has never contacted us.'
7:18:40 > 7:18:42- You haven't responded... - I don't... I will not respond!
7:18:42 > 7:18:45Yeah, but you did tell us something that's untrue, because you told us
7:18:45 > 7:18:48that you hadn't been to Switzerland with Mr Choudhrie and you had.
7:18:48 > 7:18:50- Go away!- What did Mr Choudhrie want?
7:18:50 > 7:18:52- Go away. - What did Mr Choudhrie want, sir?
7:18:52 > 7:18:55I'm getting into a taxi, don't follow me.
7:18:55 > 7:18:57Was the money that went into your Swiss account a bribe?
7:18:57 > 7:18:59- The lawyer...- I'm not pushing you.
7:18:59 > 7:19:01Was the money that went into that Swiss account,
7:19:01 > 7:19:03- was that a bribe, sir? - Don't be ridiculous!
7:19:03 > 7:19:05I've told you that before.
7:19:05 > 7:19:06Deal with my lawyer.
7:19:13 > 7:19:17'Mr Ginger told us he has never acted for Rolls-Royce
7:19:17 > 7:19:20'or had any financial dealings with the company
7:19:20 > 7:19:24'and he says he's never taken nor paid any bribes.
7:19:24 > 7:19:27'Bhanu Choudhrie's lawyers told us
7:19:27 > 7:19:31'he's never been paid to secure deals for Rolls-Royce in India,
7:19:31 > 7:19:34'including the sale of Hawk jets.
7:19:34 > 7:19:36'They add Mr Choudhrie has...
7:19:40 > 7:19:43'..and has no knowledge of Mr Ginger's banking arrangements.
7:19:50 > 7:19:52'The Serious Fraud Office
7:19:52 > 7:19:55'now has 30 investigators on the Rolls-Royce case.
7:19:55 > 7:20:00'There is a separate investigation in the United States.
7:20:00 > 7:20:03'Rolls-Royce could face enormous fines.
7:20:03 > 7:20:07'Employees past or present could be jailed.'
7:20:08 > 7:20:12Why should our viewers care if a company like Rolls-Royce,
7:20:12 > 7:20:17an iconic UK brand, is using middlemen to pay bribes?
7:20:17 > 7:20:21They should care because Rolls-Royce is, or should be, better than that.
7:20:21 > 7:20:25It's an important brand and it's a brand that should be entirely clean.
7:20:27 > 7:20:29'Rolls-Royce says it...
7:20:34 > 7:20:36'..and has intensified its...
7:20:39 > 7:20:41'It says it has...
7:20:46 > 7:20:50I think it's extremely unfortunate the way Rolls-Royce has behaved.
7:20:50 > 7:20:54I think their business model has been based on
7:20:54 > 7:20:57the systematic use of agents or middlemen
7:20:57 > 7:21:01to effectively try and bribe their way to contracts.
7:21:01 > 7:21:03I think that that makes,
7:21:03 > 7:21:08not only United Kingdom, but the world in which we trade,
7:21:08 > 7:21:11a more corrupt place, a less democratic place
7:21:11 > 7:21:17and a far more volatile and unstable place in which to do business.
7:21:19 > 7:21:23'The golden years for Rolls-Royce seem to be over.
7:21:23 > 7:21:27'The company has issued five warnings about falling profits
7:21:27 > 7:21:29'in the last two years.
7:21:31 > 7:21:34'It's now under scrutiny as never before.
7:21:34 > 7:21:36'Bribing its way around the world
7:21:36 > 7:21:39'is no longer an option for Rolls-Royce.'