0:00:30 > 0:00:33On our panel this evening, Prof Mari Lloyd-Williams
0:00:33 > 0:00:36who specialises in palliative care at Liverpool University,
0:00:36 > 0:00:41the Labour MP for Anglesey, Albert Owen, a late change due to illness,
0:00:41 > 0:00:45a Plaid Cymru councillor from Anglesey Council, Sian Gwenllian,
0:00:45 > 0:00:50and the manager of the Pavilion Theatre in Rhyl, Gareth Owen.
0:00:50 > 0:00:53Please give them a warm welcome. APPLAUSE
0:01:01 > 0:01:06Good evening and welcome to another episode of Pawb a'i Farn.
0:01:06 > 0:01:08It's nice to have you with us.
0:01:08 > 0:01:12We had a good start in Ceredigion last Thursday
0:01:12 > 0:01:16and tonight we're in Rhyl - a town which has seen significant
0:01:16 > 0:01:21changes since thousands of us came here on Sunday School trips.
0:01:21 > 0:01:26We are in Denbighshire and the audience is full of local people
0:01:26 > 0:01:29at the campus of Rhyl High School.
0:01:29 > 0:01:33There were plenty of Tweets about our programme in Pontrhydfendigaid.
0:01:33 > 0:01:36If you want to join in tonight,
0:01:36 > 0:01:40the Twitter and e-mail addresses are on the screen.
0:01:40 > 0:01:45Let's get our first question in Rhyl from Gwyn Evans at the back.
0:01:45 > 0:01:48What's your question?
0:01:48 > 0:01:53High schools in Wales were placed in bands today.
0:01:53 > 0:01:58At the start of the week, the Government put £1.4 billion
0:01:58 > 0:02:01towards improving buildings.
0:02:01 > 0:02:05Will these things improve the standards of education?
0:02:05 > 0:02:09This is one of the big stories of the day.
0:02:09 > 0:02:12Welsh high schools were placed in bands today
0:02:12 > 0:02:19and the Government has invested £1.4 billion in school buildings.
0:02:19 > 0:02:25Will this improve the standards of education?
0:02:25 > 0:02:28May I start with you, Sian Gwenllian,
0:02:28 > 0:02:31and thank you for joining us at such short notice.
0:02:31 > 0:02:36You're welcome. There are two parts to this question.
0:02:36 > 0:02:38The banding, to begin with,
0:02:38 > 0:02:43and I must say that I'm concerned about this direction.
0:02:43 > 0:02:48It's going to create a market in the field of education
0:02:48 > 0:02:51and people are already starting to ask,
0:02:51 > 0:02:56in which band is this school and that school?
0:02:58 > 0:03:03It's dangerous because it diverts attention away from what should be
0:03:03 > 0:03:09getting attention at the moment - the development of our children
0:03:09 > 0:03:12and improving standards.
0:03:12 > 0:03:16Doesn't this show parents what each school is like
0:03:16 > 0:03:18and how well it's doing?
0:03:18 > 0:03:21The more information parents are given, the better.
0:03:21 > 0:03:25Parents want to know how their school is performing
0:03:25 > 0:03:29but I feel there's a fairer way of doing this.
0:03:29 > 0:03:34Publishing the annual reports would be better.
0:03:34 > 0:03:38Results aren't everything.
0:03:38 > 0:03:44Parents choose schools not only on the basis of results
0:03:44 > 0:03:46but they also want to know what the ethos is,
0:03:46 > 0:03:50- what the policies are on bullying... - But results must be most important.
0:03:50 > 0:03:54Well, yes, for the majority of people.
0:03:54 > 0:03:58I worry that we're focusing too much on that
0:03:58 > 0:04:01and that results are everything.
0:04:01 > 0:04:03Mari, as someone involved in education,
0:04:03 > 0:04:06what do you make of these developments?
0:04:06 > 0:04:10I think it's good that, in Denbighshire,
0:04:10 > 0:04:13we don't have any schools in band five.
0:04:13 > 0:04:18Schools are doing their best with the resources they have.
0:04:18 > 0:04:23When you're looking at banding, it's not just high schools,
0:04:23 > 0:04:26primary schools need to come into it.
0:04:26 > 0:04:30But more important than all of this is the way our children are raised.
0:04:30 > 0:04:34The parents determine how children behave at school.
0:04:34 > 0:04:36We like to blame the teachers
0:04:36 > 0:04:39but the responsibility lies with the parents.
0:04:39 > 0:04:42We have deprived communities in Wales
0:04:42 > 0:04:45where families need more support.
0:04:45 > 0:04:47Regarding the buildings,
0:04:47 > 0:04:52that budget is a third of what it was to begin with.
0:04:52 > 0:04:55I do think buildings are important.
0:04:55 > 0:04:58If children are in a school where the roof is leaking
0:04:58 > 0:05:01and the paint's coming off the walls,
0:05:01 > 0:05:05it doesn't suggest we have much respect for those children.
0:05:05 > 0:05:09But do better buildings mean a better education?
0:05:09 > 0:05:12No, I'm not saying that,
0:05:12 > 0:05:15but it's important that we have buildings
0:05:15 > 0:05:18which are modern and comfortable.
0:05:18 > 0:05:22Children in newer buildings will have more self respect
0:05:22 > 0:05:28and I hope that would reflect in their behaviour.
0:05:28 > 0:05:31But the standard of teaching is what matters.
0:05:31 > 0:05:35Exactly. A lot of factors go into that.
0:05:35 > 0:05:37Albert Owen?
0:05:37 > 0:05:40We have to raise standards in Wales
0:05:40 > 0:05:44because there is a gap between Wales and England.
0:05:44 > 0:05:47I'm not sure how the banding will work.
0:05:47 > 0:05:49There's a GCSE criteria.
0:05:49 > 0:05:55The schools need more A-C grades, or something like that.
0:05:55 > 0:05:58They should have support to improve.
0:05:58 > 0:06:02That's the second thing I was going to mention.
0:06:02 > 0:06:04The parents need support.
0:06:04 > 0:06:07The parents want information and that is important.
0:06:07 > 0:06:12I'm not sure whether bands are the answer. We need something.
0:06:12 > 0:06:17Why did we get rid of league tables? A Labour Government abolished those.
0:06:17 > 0:06:20- Yes... - And now we're back in the same place.
0:06:20 > 0:06:24They are still doing it in England and they've been successful.
0:06:24 > 0:06:26So Labour has learnt its lesson?
0:06:26 > 0:06:29You'll have to ask the Minister in the Assembly.
0:06:29 > 0:06:33- I'm asking you, Albert. - I'm happy to give my opinion.
0:06:33 > 0:06:36I was against the foundation schools in England
0:06:36 > 0:06:40because I don't want schools competing with each other.
0:06:40 > 0:06:44That's important. I support community schools.
0:06:44 > 0:06:49But there is more than one way of doing banding
0:06:49 > 0:06:53because of lot of schools in band four
0:06:53 > 0:06:57do good things in the community, for example.
0:06:57 > 0:07:02But isn't the danger that people won't choose schools in band four?
0:07:02 > 0:07:05Unfortunately, that's human nature.
0:07:05 > 0:07:08They look at the tables in England and I worry about that.
0:07:08 > 0:07:10Sian?
0:07:10 > 0:07:15Your party in the Assembly is pushing the creation of bands.
0:07:15 > 0:07:17Over the last five years,
0:07:17 > 0:07:20the standard has gone down so we have to do something.
0:07:20 > 0:07:24It's fine to complain, but you have to come up with a solution.
0:07:24 > 0:07:26We'll see how banding works.
0:07:26 > 0:07:30Personally, I'm not a fan of schools competing.
0:07:30 > 0:07:31Gareth Owen,
0:07:31 > 0:07:35will banding and improving schools raise standards?
0:07:35 > 0:07:41I don't know about banding - I don't have enough information.
0:07:41 > 0:07:44In terms of spending on buildings,
0:07:44 > 0:07:47Denbighshire will get £70 million
0:07:47 > 0:07:51to spend between 2014 and 2021.
0:07:51 > 0:07:55But we need the money now.
0:07:55 > 0:08:00At Ysgol Glan Clwyd, they're teaching in portacabins in the yard.
0:08:00 > 0:08:03At Rhyl High School, at Ysgol Bodnant, Prestatyn,
0:08:03 > 0:08:06they want to spend on the buildings.
0:08:06 > 0:08:12- But money is scarce.- There will be £70 million there for Denbighshire.
0:08:12 > 0:08:15Do you think that education will improve
0:08:15 > 0:08:17because of the standard of buildings?
0:08:17 > 0:08:23There's a link between the standard of buildings and results.
0:08:23 > 0:08:26Of course teachers are important.
0:08:26 > 0:08:29I was born and educated in Eglwys Bach.
0:08:29 > 0:08:34D Lesley Phillips was head teacher, Alun Jones was deputy head.
0:08:34 > 0:08:39It was an honour to receive that education.
0:08:39 > 0:08:41Teachers are important,
0:08:41 > 0:08:44but we must remember that buildings are important.
0:08:44 > 0:08:47I'll come back to the panel. Gwyn Evans?
0:08:47 > 0:08:50We need to improve the standard of every school,
0:08:50 > 0:08:55not just one or two, but all the schools in Wales,
0:08:55 > 0:08:58from the small ones to the bigger ones.
0:08:58 > 0:09:02Time after time, you hear that employers are taking on students
0:09:02 > 0:09:04who aren't ready to work.
0:09:04 > 0:09:06We have to do something about that.
0:09:06 > 0:09:10Do they say that to the Federation of Small Businesses?
0:09:10 > 0:09:15Do children leave schools without the necessary skills these days?
0:09:15 > 0:09:17It said in the paper
0:09:17 > 0:09:21that Sainsbury's had taken on 186 students
0:09:21 > 0:09:24and had to send three quarters back to school
0:09:24 > 0:09:27to improve their education.
0:09:27 > 0:09:31- How about you?- To echo what you said regarding buildings,
0:09:31 > 0:09:37I work at Rhyl High School and today it was windy and raining
0:09:37 > 0:09:43and windows and doors were leaking water.
0:09:43 > 0:09:48There's a lot of work to be done and I welcome this money.
0:09:48 > 0:09:53It will go some way towards improving the buildings.
0:09:53 > 0:09:58But will improving buildings improve the standard of education?
0:09:58 > 0:10:00What evidence is there of that?
0:10:00 > 0:10:05The infrastructure of schools, IT, for example,
0:10:05 > 0:10:11can't cope with the demand of modern day education.
0:10:11 > 0:10:15It's important that we have this money to move forward.
0:10:15 > 0:10:19At the end of the day, the teachers and children benefit.
0:10:19 > 0:10:22Yes, you in front of me.
0:10:22 > 0:10:27In some areas, like Denbighshire, you don't have a choice anyway.
0:10:27 > 0:10:30You only have one school. That's the way it is.
0:10:30 > 0:10:34My son complains about a 30 minute journey to school.
0:10:34 > 0:10:37Would he want to spend an hour travelling to school?
0:10:37 > 0:10:39There's no choice anyway.
0:10:39 > 0:10:42- So the banding's irrelevant? - To a degree.
0:10:42 > 0:10:45At least you would know how good the school is
0:10:45 > 0:10:47and you could campaign to improve it.
0:10:47 > 0:10:49That's possible.
0:10:49 > 0:10:53- Yes?- One of the biggest problems with the banding...
0:10:53 > 0:11:00when Mr Blair was in government, it was education, education, education.
0:11:00 > 0:11:03He was playing and this government is doing exactly the same.
0:11:03 > 0:11:05In what way?
0:11:05 > 0:11:10They are playing because they're using education like bullet points
0:11:10 > 0:11:14to take to the press rather than doing the job properly.
0:11:14 > 0:11:19A generation of children is missing out.
0:11:19 > 0:11:23Every game they play, with tables, or whatever,
0:11:23 > 0:11:25costs another generation.
0:11:25 > 0:11:28I teach at a college in Bangor
0:11:28 > 0:11:31and I see the difference in the children leaving.
0:11:31 > 0:11:35The biggest crime is that while we're discussing these tables,
0:11:35 > 0:11:38we're forgetting about the children.
0:11:38 > 0:11:40So there's no point having tables?
0:11:41 > 0:11:48Well, I don't know enough about how it's done to answer that properly.
0:11:48 > 0:11:52I'll ask one or two pupils from Glan Clwyd in a moment
0:11:52 > 0:11:54but I'll come to you first.
0:11:54 > 0:11:58Looking back a long way at my own school days,
0:11:58 > 0:12:02what has stayed with me is some teachers.
0:12:02 > 0:12:06I could name three or four, I won't,
0:12:06 > 0:12:10but they had fire in their bellies for their subject.
0:12:10 > 0:12:14They acted as if it was the most important thing on earth.
0:12:14 > 0:12:18"Forget about mathematics, my subject is what's important."
0:12:18 > 0:12:20The personality inspired you.
0:12:20 > 0:12:24- You don't remember the buildings. - No. Exactly.
0:12:24 > 0:12:30That person stays with you and inspires you in a certain way.
0:12:30 > 0:12:33I don't know whether every teacher
0:12:33 > 0:12:36understands the responsibility they have.
0:12:36 > 0:12:41- Are you suggesting some teachers aren't as good as others?- Exactly.
0:12:41 > 0:12:45That's true in every field. What about the buildings?
0:12:45 > 0:12:49Gareth suggested money needs to be spend on Glan Clwyd.
0:12:49 > 0:12:51Does that worry any of you?
0:12:51 > 0:12:56There's a lack of space at Glan Clwyd.
0:12:56 > 0:13:02We have a small canteen so there isn't room for pupils to have lunch.
0:13:02 > 0:13:07The classrooms are also small and that affects the education
0:13:07 > 0:13:11because if you're sharing a small classroom with a lot of pupils,
0:13:11 > 0:13:14it's hard to keep them concentrating.
0:13:14 > 0:13:18Also, regarding the banding, I disagree with it
0:13:18 > 0:13:22because you don't capture the atmosphere of a school
0:13:22 > 0:13:27or the relationship the pupils have with the teachers
0:13:27 > 0:13:29and the way they benefit from that.
0:13:29 > 0:13:32Have you checked which band Glan Clwyd is in?
0:13:32 > 0:13:37- I know what it is, yes. - You can tell me what it is.
0:13:37 > 0:13:42It's created competition because Angharad was on her laptop
0:13:42 > 0:13:46and people are already saying, your school is a band lower than mine.
0:13:46 > 0:13:49Is that a good thing? Angharad?
0:13:49 > 0:13:54It doesn't create a good atmosphere because, as Bethany said,
0:13:54 > 0:13:58the relationship between the pupils and teachers is important as well,
0:13:58 > 0:14:01not just the grades, you know...
0:14:02 > 0:14:06They should be promoting a close relationship between schools
0:14:06 > 0:14:08rather than conflict.
0:14:08 > 0:14:13Very interesting. Albert Owen, it's creating competition between schools.
0:14:13 > 0:14:16What worries me is we talk young people down.
0:14:16 > 0:14:21A lot of them work hard at school and they get good grades.
0:14:21 > 0:14:26We have to say that. Many of them are ready to work.
0:14:26 > 0:14:30But there is a link between the buildings and the teaching.
0:14:30 > 0:14:35We have to improve the standard of both.
0:14:35 > 0:14:38And the rest of you, briefly. Mari?
0:14:38 > 0:14:42I think there's a lot more to banding than that
0:14:42 > 0:14:46but it is important to spend on buildings.
0:14:46 > 0:14:49You can have the last word, Sian.
0:14:49 > 0:14:53The buildings in which the children are being taught are important,
0:14:53 > 0:14:57but it's not the whole picture.
0:14:57 > 0:14:58Thank you.
0:14:58 > 0:15:03Let's move on with our second question.
0:15:03 > 0:15:08A lot of money has been spent on Rhyl over the years,
0:15:08 > 0:15:11but the town's image isn't improving.
0:15:11 > 0:15:15Does this prove that throwing money at a problem
0:15:15 > 0:15:17doesn't always solve it?
0:15:17 > 0:15:20We had to discuss this in Rhyl.
0:15:20 > 0:15:24I hope local people will tell it as it is.
0:15:24 > 0:15:28A lot of money has been spent on Rhyl over the years,
0:15:28 > 0:15:30but its image hasn't improved.
0:15:30 > 0:15:32I'll ask you if that's true in a moment.
0:15:32 > 0:15:38Does that prove that throwing money at a problem doesn't always fix it?
0:15:38 > 0:15:40Gareth, you work here.
0:15:40 > 0:15:43There's another strategy
0:15:43 > 0:15:48and an additional £10 million coming in to Rhyl.
0:15:48 > 0:15:51It's a four-part strategy.
0:15:51 > 0:15:56Building homes for families in the west of Rhyl.
0:15:56 > 0:16:01Tourism and the coastal path.
0:16:01 > 0:16:05Attracting high quality shops to the high street.
0:16:05 > 0:16:07Those are the aims. Are they attainable?
0:16:07 > 0:16:13I think so. And improving houses and the residential areas.
0:16:14 > 0:16:18In terms of Rhyl Pavilion, for example,
0:16:18 > 0:16:25Professor Dominic Shellard carried out an independent investigation
0:16:25 > 0:16:29and the economic impact of Rhyl Pavilion
0:16:29 > 0:16:33was worth £4 million a year to the area.
0:16:33 > 0:16:37Tourism is very important.
0:16:37 > 0:16:41For example, Evita is playing at Rhyl Pavilion
0:16:41 > 0:16:44with a cast and crew of 38.
0:16:44 > 0:16:48They live in Rhyl for a week, they spend money in the town,
0:16:48 > 0:16:52they pay for taxis and newspapers and so on.
0:16:52 > 0:16:55People come in to the area.
0:16:55 > 0:16:58- You're saying Rhyl is on the up? - Yes.
0:16:58 > 0:17:03Well, it's not down at the bottom, that's the truth,
0:17:03 > 0:17:05and we have an opportunity,
0:17:05 > 0:17:08with this strategy, to improve it again.
0:17:08 > 0:17:15- The Rhyl young farmers' eisteddfod...- We saw that on S4C.
0:17:15 > 0:17:20People came from all over Wales and spent money in the town.
0:17:20 > 0:17:23It will improve four things.
0:17:23 > 0:17:28Tir Glas, tourism, shops and homes.
0:17:28 > 0:17:32- Have we got the wrong impression? - I think so.
0:17:32 > 0:17:36The people are the heart and soul of Rhyl
0:17:36 > 0:17:39and a lot of good things go on here.
0:17:39 > 0:17:43You've spoken on behalf of the town.
0:17:43 > 0:17:46I heard a few people behind me. What do you think?
0:17:46 > 0:17:48I've lived in Rhyl for over 50 years.
0:17:48 > 0:17:52I've worked for the Fire Service for over 30 years.
0:17:52 > 0:17:55The town has changed
0:17:55 > 0:17:59but it's no worse than other places in North Wales
0:17:59 > 0:18:00or across Wales.
0:18:02 > 0:18:04The money that's being...
0:18:04 > 0:18:09It's not being thrown at Rhyl, it's being spent, we must remember that.
0:18:09 > 0:18:12Are we using it wisely? We're talking about millions of pounds.
0:18:12 > 0:18:14Yes, yes. I don't think it's being wasted.
0:18:14 > 0:18:17I don't think so at all.
0:18:17 > 0:18:19When you look at the houses
0:18:19 > 0:18:24that were built in the town centre,
0:18:24 > 0:18:27that's where there are problems.
0:18:27 > 0:18:32Those houses aren't suitable for modern lifestyles.
0:18:32 > 0:18:34They best thing they can do
0:18:34 > 0:18:39is knock most of them down and build modern spaces for people to live in.
0:18:39 > 0:18:42There are problems with people coming into Rhyl
0:18:42 > 0:18:47in the period leading up to the last 10 or 20 years.
0:18:49 > 0:18:53It's one of the poorest areas, not just in Wales but in Britain.
0:18:53 > 0:18:56I can't for the life of me understand
0:18:56 > 0:18:59where they get those figures from,
0:18:59 > 0:19:02if we look at other areas like Colwyn Bay and Llandudno.
0:19:02 > 0:19:06- Your friend, here. - He's my brother!
0:19:06 > 0:19:11I apologise. I've learned something here tonight.
0:19:11 > 0:19:14- I'm sure you're also his friend. - I hope so!
0:19:14 > 0:19:19I have lived in Colwyn Bay for years, and I have moved from there.
0:19:19 > 0:19:22- Is it better than Rhyl? - There are serious problems there.
0:19:22 > 0:19:24There are big problems in Colwyn Bay,
0:19:24 > 0:19:28but as Harri said, we need to look at,
0:19:28 > 0:19:32there are big problems in a lot of towns.
0:19:32 > 0:19:37It's easy to look at the negatives.
0:19:37 > 0:19:40We need to look at the positives and work on them.
0:19:40 > 0:19:43I agree with Gareth's points.
0:19:43 > 0:19:45And we don't hear enough of those.
0:19:45 > 0:19:48Well, we're certainly hearing them tonight.
0:19:48 > 0:19:50There was a hand up there.
0:19:50 > 0:19:53I was a social worker...
0:19:54 > 0:19:56OK? I used to be a social worker
0:19:56 > 0:19:59and used to visit people in their homes.
0:19:59 > 0:20:02In Rhyl there is a problem in one part.
0:20:02 > 0:20:08Because of that one area, the whole town is misrepresented?
0:20:08 > 0:20:11Yes, but it is the same in other parts of north Wales like Llandudno.
0:20:11 > 0:20:16When I was working, I used to think Colwyn Bay was much worse than Rhyl.
0:20:16 > 0:20:20When you go through Colwyn Bay, it looks even worse.
0:20:20 > 0:20:22- APPLAUSE - I agree!
0:20:22 > 0:20:25It's becoming a battle between Colwyn Bay and Rhyl!
0:20:25 > 0:20:31Why is one well-known shop threatening to leave?
0:20:31 > 0:20:33Because of parking.
0:20:33 > 0:20:38Just because of parking? Not because of the town's image?
0:20:38 > 0:20:40I wouldn't say so. Prestatyn is a welcoming place.
0:20:40 > 0:20:43All it will do is kill off Prestatyn
0:20:43 > 0:20:45if their high street shop closes.
0:20:45 > 0:20:47I saw another hand up over there.
0:20:47 > 0:20:50Another girl from Glan Clwyd.
0:20:50 > 0:20:52I think money can help in Rhyl,
0:20:52 > 0:20:59but it is people that make a town at the end of the day.
0:21:02 > 0:21:07It's the people that need support, rather than the buildings.
0:21:07 > 0:21:10Right.
0:21:10 > 0:21:14Support for the people in which way? It strikes me as a very good point.
0:21:14 > 0:21:17There is a lot of unemployment. A lot of unemployment.
0:21:17 > 0:21:21There was a programme about unemployment in Rhyl
0:21:21 > 0:21:23on television recently.
0:21:23 > 0:21:26We need more support to help people who are poor.
0:21:26 > 0:21:30That would help Rhyl in the long-term.
0:21:30 > 0:21:32So you need to bring businesses in?
0:21:32 > 0:21:38Rhys is a businessman from the area. What do you make of it?
0:21:38 > 0:21:40People tend to kick a man when he's down.
0:21:40 > 0:21:45When people want to cover a place for a news story,
0:21:45 > 0:21:48"Where will we go? We'll go to Rhyl."
0:21:48 > 0:21:52People say that Rhyl is a hole of a place for because it's sensational.
0:21:52 > 0:21:57Parts of Rhyl are horrible, so are parts of Cardiff and Swansea.
0:21:57 > 0:22:01The problem is, sensationalism sells the place.
0:22:01 > 0:22:05They are not giving Rhyl a chance, it is improving,
0:22:05 > 0:22:08and the problems are disappearing.
0:22:08 > 0:22:13I'm in favour of demolishing those houses.
0:22:13 > 0:22:15- Things are improving? - Things are improving.
0:22:15 > 0:22:20But that golden era when we all came here on day trips has gone?
0:22:20 > 0:22:22No. No.
0:22:22 > 0:22:28Everybody today, whether you're in business or in Rhyl,
0:22:28 > 0:22:32everybody has a frown on their face.
0:22:32 > 0:22:37We have to work together with Denbighshire and Pretatyn
0:22:37 > 0:22:41and go forward with confidence because Rhyl is improving.
0:22:41 > 0:22:43Where were the other hands up? Go on.
0:22:43 > 0:22:46We have to promote the place.
0:22:46 > 0:22:50I have grown up in Rhyl and lived here all my life.
0:22:50 > 0:22:53I have seen a great improvement in Rhyl.
0:22:55 > 0:22:59A lot of things have been created for young people like me.
0:22:59 > 0:23:03There is too much emphasis on the negative aspects
0:23:03 > 0:23:06that come from one part of Rhyl.
0:23:06 > 0:23:08There are loads of things.
0:23:08 > 0:23:11For instance, like,
0:23:11 > 0:23:15a lot of money was spent on the cinema and it is brilliant.
0:23:17 > 0:23:20But will you stay here?
0:23:20 > 0:23:23- Or will you come back if you go away? - Yes, I will.
0:23:23 > 0:23:29A lot of different people have come here in the last 10 or 20 years.
0:23:29 > 0:23:35They are different from the people who actually come from the town.
0:23:35 > 0:23:40A lot of people with a lot of problems. The needy.
0:23:42 > 0:23:45They give this town a bad image.
0:23:45 > 0:23:48They come here because they are attracted here
0:23:48 > 0:23:52to live in the houses on the promenade.
0:23:52 > 0:23:54That poses a lot of problems.
0:23:54 > 0:24:00I was born and raised here. This was a lovely place to grow up.
0:24:00 > 0:24:03I'm pleased to hear the young people talking in the same way.
0:24:03 > 0:24:09It still is a lovely place, but these people are harming the town.
0:24:09 > 0:24:14I know that you're not from Rhyl, but you know Rhyl. What do you think?
0:24:14 > 0:24:17I agree 100%. I come here to shop.
0:24:17 > 0:24:20It'll be a big loss when M&S leaves.
0:24:20 > 0:24:23But there is a snobbish element
0:24:23 > 0:24:27that I have to say exists in both England and Wales
0:24:27 > 0:24:29that Rhyl is not a nice place
0:24:29 > 0:24:32and people look down their noses at it.
0:24:32 > 0:24:37If local people cannot support our town, who will?
0:24:37 > 0:24:42And we do, as Rhys Jones said, we complain too much.
0:24:42 > 0:24:44Money is being spent in Rhyl,
0:24:44 > 0:24:47there is also a problem with the county council.
0:24:47 > 0:24:51They provide money for projects, for two or three years,
0:24:51 > 0:24:55we all know, if we're doing community work it's not long enough.
0:24:55 > 0:24:57Three years isn't long either.
0:24:57 > 0:25:00The small projects are financed,
0:25:00 > 0:25:04and when they come to an end, there is no money left.
0:25:04 > 0:25:07It would make more sense if they put more strategic finances
0:25:07 > 0:25:11towards helping the good work that is going on in the communities.
0:25:11 > 0:25:15There is some good work going on,
0:25:15 > 0:25:17and we need to get more agencies.
0:25:17 > 0:25:21And we need to encourage them to work together.
0:25:21 > 0:25:24We need to get people to work together and help the community.
0:25:24 > 0:25:26The town has many good qualities.
0:25:26 > 0:25:29Albert Owen.
0:25:29 > 0:25:32My wife was born in Rhyl so I have to be careful what I say!
0:25:32 > 0:25:35The important thing is, and there's a consensus here,
0:25:35 > 0:25:38money has come here,
0:25:38 > 0:25:42and it has brought people together, and that is important.
0:25:42 > 0:25:45Well, it has done that.
0:25:45 > 0:25:47Many people are working in partnership.
0:25:47 > 0:25:51They are helping the area, but I am worried about unemployment.
0:25:51 > 0:25:53That is a big problem.
0:25:53 > 0:25:57We have to invest in businesses to make sure there is work.
0:25:57 > 0:26:00We have to invest in education as well.
0:26:00 > 0:26:03But Labour has had a chance to do that during the last 20 years
0:26:03 > 0:26:05whether it be in Westminster or Cardiff!
0:26:05 > 0:26:09We have done it. Things have improved, as people have said.
0:26:09 > 0:26:14I remember a lot of people leaving Rhyl in the '80s and '90s.
0:26:14 > 0:26:17I am very encouraged tonight.
0:26:17 > 0:26:20As somebody from outside the area,
0:26:20 > 0:26:25I did have an image in my mind of Rhyl as a place full of problems.
0:26:25 > 0:26:27But the enthusiasm here tonight
0:26:27 > 0:26:32makes me think I have got the wrong end of the stick.
0:26:32 > 0:26:36I'm aware there's unemployment and poverty.
0:26:36 > 0:26:42Especially in one area. And we need to tackle that problem.
0:26:42 > 0:26:45We need schemes to work with families in that situation.
0:26:45 > 0:26:47Gareth, what do you make of that?
0:26:47 > 0:26:51People acknowledge that Rhyl has good qualities.
0:26:51 > 0:26:54Mick, you asked the question.
0:26:54 > 0:26:56I come from a tourism angle.
0:26:56 > 0:26:59That's the world I'm involved in.
0:26:59 > 0:27:03People come here on caravan holidays.
0:27:03 > 0:27:08We have been hearing that things will happen in Rhyl for many years.
0:27:08 > 0:27:12They return year after year. And nothing's been done.
0:27:12 > 0:27:13They've got rid of the fair now.
0:27:13 > 0:27:16They promised various things would happen but they never have.
0:27:16 > 0:27:19It's all right for us locals to know things will happen,
0:27:19 > 0:27:21but come here from Birmingham
0:27:21 > 0:27:24and the town looks exactly the same from one year to the next.
0:27:24 > 0:27:27Are people still coming?
0:27:27 > 0:27:30People have stopped coming here because there is nothing to do.
0:27:30 > 0:27:33They looked forward to the fair, which has gone.
0:27:33 > 0:27:36We don't even have donkeys on the beach any more!
0:27:36 > 0:27:41But there are still a lot of people staying in caravans around here.
0:27:41 > 0:27:45But more people are buying caravans than hiring them.
0:27:45 > 0:27:49You can carry on with your discussion during the break.
0:27:49 > 0:27:52Mick and the two brothers.
0:27:52 > 0:27:56It's time for a break. Join us in a few minutes.
0:28:12 > 0:28:13Welcome back to the programme.
0:28:13 > 0:28:16You're watching Pawb a'i Farn.
0:28:16 > 0:28:20As you heard in the last ten minutes it's coming from Rhyl
0:28:20 > 0:28:23and they were still talking during the advert break.
0:28:23 > 0:28:26Let's go to our next question from Angharad Rowlands.
0:28:26 > 0:28:28We've already heard from you.
0:28:28 > 0:28:31Wind turbines can be seen right across Denbighshire
0:28:31 > 0:28:34and there are more to come.
0:28:34 > 0:28:37Is this the answer to our energy problems?
0:28:37 > 0:28:40A question there about wind turbines in Denbighshire.
0:28:40 > 0:28:44Is this the answer to our energy problems?
0:28:44 > 0:28:48Let's start with Albert Owen.
0:28:48 > 0:28:51I don't think it is the answer.
0:28:51 > 0:28:54We have to look at every way of creating energy.
0:28:54 > 0:28:58We need the baseload they're all talking about.
0:28:58 > 0:29:02Nuclear is part of the answer. I think we should look at nuclear.
0:29:02 > 0:29:05We should also have wind turbines
0:29:05 > 0:29:09and the best place to have them is out at sea.
0:29:09 > 0:29:14We need to look at how to mix up different ways of energy production.
0:29:14 > 0:29:20We have to look at solar and tidal energy as well as wind turbines.
0:29:20 > 0:29:23But you don't want them on the land?
0:29:23 > 0:29:26If we have them on the land,
0:29:26 > 0:29:30every authority in Wales and Britain must make sure they have a plan.
0:29:30 > 0:29:34They need to consult local people first,
0:29:34 > 0:29:39so that it's not just the government in Cardiff saying,
0:29:39 > 0:29:43"This is the area where they will be erected."
0:29:43 > 0:29:45We need a strategy.
0:29:45 > 0:29:50Local people need to give their opinion. It is important.
0:29:50 > 0:29:53At the end of the day we have to have the baseload,
0:29:53 > 0:29:57and we need to have clean coal or nuclear.
0:29:57 > 0:30:00- So you say nuclear is needed? - Yes.
0:30:00 > 0:30:02More than a second Wylfa station?
0:30:02 > 0:30:07If we reach the target of low carbon emissions then it will be fine.
0:30:07 > 0:30:10We need to get the baseload right.
0:30:10 > 0:30:13Wind turbines can't satisfy the need.
0:30:13 > 0:30:19- Sian Gwenllian.- We have to move towards renewable energy.
0:30:19 > 0:30:21We can't carry on as we are,
0:30:21 > 0:30:26unless we choose to live a much simpler lifestyle.
0:30:26 > 0:30:28That is also an option.
0:30:28 > 0:30:34Saving energy with better insulation and so forth is very important.
0:30:34 > 0:30:37We can't forget about that.
0:30:37 > 0:30:40I think that tends to be forgotten in this argument.
0:30:40 > 0:30:45Yes, wind farms have their place
0:30:45 > 0:30:49but we need plans that are tailored for each area.
0:30:49 > 0:30:53We can't have all the wind turbines in Denbighshire.
0:30:53 > 0:30:56It needs to be shared out.
0:30:56 > 0:31:00We need a Welsh energy strategy
0:31:00 > 0:31:04so we look strategically at the resources and areas.
0:31:04 > 0:31:10So a mixture of different sources, would you agree with nuclear energy?
0:31:11 > 0:31:14I am not in favour of nuclear energy.
0:31:14 > 0:31:20I would not want to see any more nuclear power stations in Wales.
0:31:20 > 0:31:22I agree.
0:31:22 > 0:31:25I think we need a combination of energy sources.
0:31:25 > 0:31:29I don't agree with nuclear energy either.
0:31:29 > 0:31:33The people who complain about these wind things,
0:31:33 > 0:31:36I look out of my window and I can see wind turbines,
0:31:36 > 0:31:38they are far away,
0:31:38 > 0:31:42but I prefer to see them than nuclear power stations.
0:31:42 > 0:31:47We have to look at it from an environmental perspective as well.
0:31:47 > 0:31:50What if they were a hundred yards from the house?
0:31:50 > 0:31:54I'm sure I wouldn't like it a hundred yards from my home.
0:31:54 > 0:31:57I'm sure I wouldn't like it.
0:31:57 > 0:31:59We need to look at schemes.
0:31:59 > 0:32:04We have to think about when we get energy, how we can save energy.
0:32:04 > 0:32:08We live energy-hungry lifestyles.
0:32:08 > 0:32:12- I think we use too much energy. - But that is such a long process.
0:32:12 > 0:32:14But it makes a difference.
0:32:14 > 0:32:17All of us can make a difference and there should be an Assembly policy.
0:32:17 > 0:32:20As you have strong feelings in this area,
0:32:20 > 0:32:24if you lived in Powys, you would not sympathise with these people
0:32:24 > 0:32:30who are now protesting in Cardiff Bay against pylons and wind-turbines?
0:32:30 > 0:32:34I live a hundred yards from a pylon.
0:32:34 > 0:32:36I think a wind turbine is better than a pylon,
0:32:36 > 0:32:38and a lot safer as well.
0:32:38 > 0:32:41I am worried about radiation and nuclear power.
0:32:41 > 0:32:43You're against another nuclear station on Anglesey?
0:32:43 > 0:32:45- Certainly. - Albert.
0:32:45 > 0:32:50If the wind is not blowing and we don't have sun for the solar panels,
0:32:50 > 0:32:56you'll need something and the price of fossil fuels will rocket.
0:32:56 > 0:33:00Unless we go nuclear, you'll need to pay more.
0:33:00 > 0:33:03We have to insulate our homes.
0:33:03 > 0:33:05Energy efficiency is very important.
0:33:05 > 0:33:08But nuclear has to be part of our energy future
0:33:08 > 0:33:12if we want to maintain our lifestyles and industries.
0:33:12 > 0:33:16We have to change the way we deal with this.
0:33:16 > 0:33:22One reduces and the other grows. It won't develop at the same rate.
0:33:22 > 0:33:26Without wind, wind turbines will not work.
0:33:26 > 0:33:29Gareth, why don't you weigh in on this?
0:33:29 > 0:33:32There is a worldwide agreement
0:33:32 > 0:33:37that we have to have 15% renewable energy by 2020 in this country.
0:33:37 > 0:33:42We have to have wind turbines for that.
0:33:42 > 0:33:46Do they appeal to you?
0:33:46 > 0:33:49Yes, and no. I will tell you later.
0:33:49 > 0:33:52You don't have time. Tell us now.
0:33:52 > 0:33:57Turbines are normally situated in areas of natural beauty,
0:33:57 > 0:33:59because that's where the wind is.
0:33:59 > 0:34:04When I was in Amsterdam, you saw a lot of windmills
0:34:04 > 0:34:08and wind-turbines on the beach and that didn't bother me at all.
0:34:08 > 0:34:13Well, what about these out in the sea here?
0:34:13 > 0:34:14No, they don't bother me either.
0:34:14 > 0:34:18I've got a good view from my office window.
0:34:18 > 0:34:20But, you know, with nuclear energy,
0:34:20 > 0:34:25I am not a big fan of nuclear energy.
0:34:25 > 0:34:30Last year there was a concert here with the Chernobyl children.
0:34:30 > 0:34:33It was 25 years since that disaster.
0:34:33 > 0:34:36You also have the problems in Japan after the tsunami.
0:34:36 > 0:34:39I am not comfortable with nuclear energy.
0:34:39 > 0:34:41There is real concern, Albert Owen.
0:34:41 > 0:34:46Certainly. There is risk connected to any means of energy production.
0:34:46 > 0:34:49People are still dying in the coal mines.
0:34:49 > 0:34:54There are problems. The risk is there but nuclear energy is safe.
0:34:54 > 0:34:57The people of Anglesey support it.
0:34:57 > 0:35:01It is good for the economy and energy security.
0:35:01 > 0:35:05- Angharad, what do you think about this?- I
0:35:05 > 0:35:08am not in favour of nuclear energy either.
0:35:08 > 0:35:15I can't understand the problem with having these wind turbines,
0:35:15 > 0:35:17they do help the environment.
0:35:17 > 0:35:20We created the problems with the environment.
0:35:20 > 0:35:23- We have to sort it out. - Some people find them very ugly.
0:35:23 > 0:35:30As you said, they're not as bad as nuclear power stations.
0:35:32 > 0:35:35I come from Llangernyw and I sit on our community council.
0:35:35 > 0:35:42Recently they thought about building wind turbines in Gwytherin.
0:35:42 > 0:35:47If they had done that they would have taken over the local area.
0:35:47 > 0:35:50- They would have drowned the area. - In what way drowned?
0:35:50 > 0:35:53They would drown the community.
0:35:53 > 0:36:00The wind turbines they were going to install were going to be so high,
0:36:00 > 0:36:03you know, like fighter jets if they were on their ends,
0:36:03 > 0:36:07they would have ripped the community apart.
0:36:07 > 0:36:11It true to say that they're all right as long as they are not in our area?
0:36:11 > 0:36:15But if you look into planning,
0:36:15 > 0:36:18there's there's so much concrete being put into the land
0:36:18 > 0:36:22as foundations for these turbines.
0:36:22 > 0:36:26It's easy to be negative, but what would you be in favour of?
0:36:26 > 0:36:29Would you like to see a nuclear power station in Conwy Valley?
0:36:29 > 0:36:32- No. - No. Right.
0:36:32 > 0:36:37As somebody who lives near Wylfa power-station on Anglesey,
0:36:37 > 0:36:39I have been brought up next to it.
0:36:39 > 0:36:43My children have been brought up next to it and they are fine.
0:36:43 > 0:36:46From my front door I can see Wylfa,
0:36:46 > 0:36:49from my back door I can see wind turbines.
0:36:49 > 0:36:51The first wind farm to be built in Wales.
0:36:51 > 0:36:57I'm a photographer and on the coldest day of the year last year,
0:36:57 > 0:36:59it was minus six Celsius,
0:36:59 > 0:37:04I went out to take photographs and I was on the headland.
0:37:04 > 0:37:07I was looking at the nuclear power station working
0:37:07 > 0:37:11and no wind turbine was turning.
0:37:11 > 0:37:15When you need that energy to create heat for the elderly,
0:37:15 > 0:37:18those wind turbines will not work.
0:37:18 > 0:37:20You say they are ineffective.
0:37:20 > 0:37:24Wind turbines, in the front row.
0:37:24 > 0:37:26I am an architect.
0:37:26 > 0:37:31I design homes with insulation and all sorts of things in them,
0:37:31 > 0:37:34but new homes are not a problem, it is the old houses.
0:37:34 > 0:37:37You must reduce their energy consumption
0:37:37 > 0:37:42before looking at energy production sources.
0:37:42 > 0:37:44So what's the answer? Demolish old houses?
0:37:44 > 0:37:50There are ways of insulating these houses using different ways.
0:37:50 > 0:37:54We shouldn't be distracted by the green bling.
0:37:54 > 0:38:00- What does the architect think of wind turbines?- They're pretty.
0:38:00 > 0:38:02We have spent 10 minutes
0:38:02 > 0:38:05talking about the importance of tourism to this town.
0:38:05 > 0:38:08We are being surrounded by wind farms.
0:38:08 > 0:38:12If 300 more turbines are going to be erected out at sea,
0:38:12 > 0:38:18and our hills are full of them, we don't want more on the land.
0:38:18 > 0:38:20Will it deter people from coming?
0:38:20 > 0:38:23This will change the area's image.
0:38:23 > 0:38:28If all can see when you sit on Rhyl's beaches are wind turbines,
0:38:28 > 0:38:30it is not the best view.
0:38:30 > 0:38:33I think certain parts of the country
0:38:33 > 0:38:36are taking the burden of these wind farms.
0:38:36 > 0:38:41So you don't want them on land or at sea.
0:38:41 > 0:38:46I'd rather they were at sea than on the mountains.
0:38:46 > 0:38:49We need to make sure we don't put too many in one place.
0:38:49 > 0:38:52I'll posit that question to the man in tourism.
0:38:52 > 0:38:54Will wind turbines deter people from coming?
0:38:54 > 0:38:56I haven't had any complaints.
0:38:56 > 0:38:59The areas they come from don't have any.
0:38:59 > 0:39:01I wouldn't say they were a good thing.
0:39:01 > 0:39:04They weren't around today in this stormy weather!
0:39:04 > 0:39:07I haven't heard any complaints.
0:39:07 > 0:39:09You get the last word.
0:39:09 > 0:39:13What about water mills?
0:39:13 > 0:39:17That is what we used before we had electricity everywhere.
0:39:17 > 0:39:21If you think of all the rivers that run through Wales,
0:39:21 > 0:39:23what is wrong with them?
0:39:23 > 0:39:25Somebody must have thought of it.
0:39:25 > 0:39:28Nobody talks about them.
0:39:28 > 0:39:31Is anybody going to answer that question?
0:39:31 > 0:39:33Micro generation is important.
0:39:33 > 0:39:36A wind turbine is fine for a small village,
0:39:36 > 0:39:38on the scale we're talking about, they're a problem.
0:39:38 > 0:39:41We are going to take another break.
0:39:41 > 0:39:45Join us in a couple of minutes for the final part of the programme.
0:40:00 > 0:40:05Welcome back. We're in Rhyl for this week's edition of Pawb a'i Farn.
0:40:05 > 0:40:08If you want to join in the discussion,
0:40:08 > 0:40:10don't forget out Twitter address.
0:40:10 > 0:40:15Let's go to our next question, and it comes from Curtis Shay.
0:40:15 > 0:40:16What's your question?
0:40:16 > 0:40:19Once again this week, a patient from Britain has travelled
0:40:19 > 0:40:22to a clinic in Switzerland to end their life.
0:40:22 > 0:40:25Isn't it time to make it legal in this country?
0:40:25 > 0:40:29Thank you very much, Curtis. Another very serious question.
0:40:29 > 0:40:32Once again this week, a patient from Britain has travelled
0:40:32 > 0:40:34to a clinic in Switzerland to end their life.
0:40:34 > 0:40:38Isn't it time to make it legal in this country? Mari?
0:40:38 > 0:40:40To start with,
0:40:40 > 0:40:44we all sympathise with Geraldine McClelland and her family
0:40:44 > 0:40:46and the fact that she wrote this letter
0:40:46 > 0:40:49which was to be published after her death.
0:40:49 > 0:40:53Us a doctor, and because of my personal and religious views,
0:40:53 > 0:40:56I don't agree with euthanasia at all
0:40:56 > 0:40:59and I can't see any reason to agree with it.
0:40:59 > 0:41:02The problem is, if you go down the road
0:41:02 > 0:41:08of having a law that allows people to be killed,
0:41:08 > 0:41:12and that's what it is, and say it's because someone has an illness
0:41:12 > 0:41:15and is only going to live for a week or a fortnight,
0:41:15 > 0:41:17nobody can be certain of that.
0:41:17 > 0:41:19I've been a doctor for 15 or 20 years
0:41:19 > 0:41:22and I'm no better at estimating how long
0:41:22 > 0:41:26a very ill patient is going to live now than I was 20 years ago.
0:41:26 > 0:41:28It's not something that's easy to do.
0:41:28 > 0:41:31The other problem is that things change.
0:41:31 > 0:41:36I've seen patients that have been given a terrible diagnosis
0:41:36 > 0:41:40and someone has told them, "You've got two months to live."
0:41:40 > 0:41:43Five years later, they're still alive. Things change.
0:41:43 > 0:41:47But if it's the patient's wish,
0:41:47 > 0:41:52shouldn't he or she have the right to do what he or she wishes to do?
0:41:52 > 0:41:57We all have different choices to make in our lives,
0:41:57 > 0:42:01but having a law that allows that choice, whatever it is,
0:42:01 > 0:42:03is something very different.
0:42:03 > 0:42:07I think it would be dangerous for our society.
0:42:07 > 0:42:09I think it would be very dangerous.
0:42:09 > 0:42:10What are the dangers?
0:42:10 > 0:42:13If you go down that road,
0:42:13 > 0:42:18it's going to allow the most fragile people in our society
0:42:18 > 0:42:21to feel under threat.
0:42:21 > 0:42:25We live in a society today where we don't value older people,
0:42:25 > 0:42:30people who are ill, or people with disadvantages.
0:42:30 > 0:42:34We're perfect people and we're this and that.
0:42:34 > 0:42:37We don't look after these people in our communities.
0:42:37 > 0:42:41That means that those people feel that their lives are worthless
0:42:41 > 0:42:42and they can't make a contribution.
0:42:42 > 0:42:45Thank you, Mari. Gareth Owen?
0:42:45 > 0:42:47This is very close to my heart
0:42:47 > 0:42:52because my wife died of cancer a year last February.
0:42:52 > 0:42:56This is a very difficult question,
0:42:56 > 0:42:59when you've seen someone you love become very ill.
0:42:59 > 0:43:02In the end, it's a question of conscience.
0:43:02 > 0:43:11In my personal experience, I have to thank St David's Hospice.
0:43:11 > 0:43:13In my circumstances,
0:43:13 > 0:43:18I would never have managed without the St David's Hospice.
0:43:18 > 0:43:21But there were times, especially at the end,
0:43:21 > 0:43:24when she didn't want to live.
0:43:24 > 0:43:28I think it's a matter of conscience in the end.
0:43:28 > 0:43:34But I can see what Mari's saying. I take your point.
0:43:34 > 0:43:38- As an MP, Albert, would you want legislation in this field?- No.
0:43:38 > 0:43:41A lot of people have written to me and I've been straight with them.
0:43:41 > 0:43:45- You get letters about this?- Yes. - Asking you to legislate?
0:43:45 > 0:43:48Yes, and my immediate answer is,
0:43:48 > 0:43:50I'll never vote in favour of euthanasia.
0:43:50 > 0:43:52I do feel strongly about this.
0:43:52 > 0:43:58As Mari said, the elderly think they're in the way,
0:43:58 > 0:44:01in the family's way, and this is the way out.
0:44:01 > 0:44:03But we're not talking about the elderly.
0:44:03 > 0:44:07We're talking about someone who's seriously ill at the age of 60.
0:44:07 > 0:44:10But it's about people having the choice.
0:44:10 > 0:44:13As an MP, I don't want to vote to give someone
0:44:13 > 0:44:16the option of ending their own life.
0:44:16 > 0:44:20I think there is a sanctity of life.
0:44:20 > 0:44:24I think that's important because if you lose that...
0:44:24 > 0:44:27So they can go to Switzerland but definitely not here?
0:44:27 > 0:44:30I'm not happy about them going to Switzerland but...
0:44:30 > 0:44:34But they can't do it here among their family and in their own homes?
0:44:34 > 0:44:38I think it's wrong to have euthanasia in Switzerland
0:44:38 > 0:44:39and in Britain.
0:44:39 > 0:44:43We can't legislate for people in Switzerland
0:44:43 > 0:44:46but we can do it here and I'll never vote in favour of it.
0:44:46 > 0:44:48I'll remind you of the question once again.
0:44:48 > 0:44:52Once again this week, a patient from Britain has travelled to Switzerland.
0:44:52 > 0:44:54Is it time to legalise euthanasia? Sian?
0:44:54 > 0:44:58I think it is time to seriously consider this again.
0:44:58 > 0:45:04I don't really understand the argument about the choice,
0:45:04 > 0:45:06because there is no choice.
0:45:06 > 0:45:09Someone can choose to carry on living
0:45:09 > 0:45:13but a person doesn't have the option of ending their own life
0:45:13 > 0:45:15if he or she wishes to do so.
0:45:15 > 0:45:20In some circumstances, I don't see why that can't happen.
0:45:20 > 0:45:26But that's completely different, isn't it, because anyone...
0:45:26 > 0:45:30And I know I'm saying something quite difficult now.
0:45:30 > 0:45:34People can decide sometimes to end their own life.
0:45:34 > 0:45:38That's terrible and sad when it happens.
0:45:38 > 0:45:40But we're talking about something different.
0:45:40 > 0:45:45Is it a sad thing if someone genuinely feels...
0:45:45 > 0:45:47You know, not because of depression.
0:45:47 > 0:45:50I can see that it can become a problem then,
0:45:50 > 0:45:56defining the mental state of that person and so on.
0:45:56 > 0:46:03But say I decided, if I became very ill,
0:46:03 > 0:46:08that I wanted to end my own life, why can't I have that right?
0:46:08 > 0:46:15- You have that right, personally. - But it's against the law.
0:46:15 > 0:46:18Euthanasia is against the law.
0:46:18 > 0:46:26The problem is, people will think there's no point having any care.
0:46:26 > 0:46:30Having legislation in favour of euthanasia
0:46:30 > 0:46:34means that you have no obligation to offer care to these people.
0:46:34 > 0:46:39Let's hear from the audience. Curtis, you first.
0:46:39 > 0:46:42I don't see how you think you've got the right,
0:46:42 > 0:46:45if someone wants to end their life,
0:46:45 > 0:46:49it's not your business to say yes or no.
0:46:49 > 0:46:52It's something personal.
0:46:52 > 0:46:59In today's society, people don't like talking about death,
0:46:59 > 0:47:07but euthanasia helps people to cope better with everything.
0:47:07 > 0:47:09Can I ask you at the back?
0:47:09 > 0:47:16If an animal is suffering, the kind thing to do is to put it to sleep.
0:47:16 > 0:47:19What's the difference between a person
0:47:19 > 0:47:21and an animal that's suffering?
0:47:21 > 0:47:24There's quite a big difference.
0:47:24 > 0:47:26You can respond but there are a lot of hands up.
0:47:26 > 0:47:30If you consider someone who's suffering
0:47:30 > 0:47:33from motor neurone disease, for example,
0:47:33 > 0:47:35their body breaks down gradually.
0:47:35 > 0:47:37I remember seeing a programme
0:47:37 > 0:47:41about a man who was suffering from the disease and in a few weeks,
0:47:41 > 0:47:46he was going to lose the ability to swallow and to use his body.
0:47:46 > 0:47:48He wouldn't be living, he'd be existing.
0:47:48 > 0:47:52He didn't want to put his family through that pain
0:47:52 > 0:47:54and he didn't want to be in a situation
0:47:54 > 0:47:56where he couldn't say anything.
0:47:56 > 0:47:58Thank you. Yes, behind you?
0:47:58 > 0:48:00Life is very precious
0:48:00 > 0:48:06and it's the only thing we don't have real control over.
0:48:06 > 0:48:08I think if it was legalised,
0:48:08 > 0:48:14there might be a problem with it being misused.
0:48:14 > 0:48:19I think that would be very serious.
0:48:19 > 0:48:25A lot of people go through a lot pain and tragedy in their lives...
0:48:25 > 0:48:28I have to stop you there. Thank you very much.
0:48:28 > 0:48:32It's a very sobering issue to end this programme with,
0:48:32 > 0:48:34but thank you to the audience and the panellists.
0:48:34 > 0:48:37We'll be in Llanelli next week.
0:48:37 > 0:48:39Until then, thank you for watching, and goodbye.