0:00:24 > 0:00:25On our panel tonight -
0:00:25 > 0:00:29Professor R. Gwynedd Parry from Swansea University's law department.
0:00:29 > 0:00:34The presenter and editor of Wedi 7, Angharad Mair.
0:00:34 > 0:00:38Labour's Llanelli AM, Keith Price Davies.
0:00:38 > 0:00:42And Myrddin Edwards, a Liberal Democrat official.
0:00:42 > 0:00:44Please welcome them. APPLAUSE
0:00:52 > 0:00:59Good evening and welcome to another edition of Pawb a'i Farn
0:00:59 > 0:01:01on a very wintry Thursday night.
0:01:01 > 0:01:05Before we begin our debate, I'd like to wish everyone here
0:01:05 > 0:01:07and you at home a very merry Christmas.
0:01:07 > 0:01:132011 ends in Llanelli and our audience tonight has decided
0:01:13 > 0:01:17to set aside an hour to discuss the issues of the day
0:01:17 > 0:01:19despite the fact it's a busy time of year.
0:01:19 > 0:01:25The questions have been chosen and if you want to contribute to the debate,
0:01:25 > 0:01:30our Twitter and e-mail details are on the screen.
0:01:30 > 0:01:35I found out through Twitter this week that we have one viewer in Australia.
0:01:35 > 0:01:37It's a small world!
0:01:37 > 0:01:41Our first question in Llanelli comes from Elin Leyshon.
0:01:41 > 0:01:43What's your question?
0:01:43 > 0:01:47I wanted to ask the panel if they think David Cameron
0:01:47 > 0:01:50has made the right decision by listening to his party
0:01:50 > 0:01:53instead of going with the majority
0:01:53 > 0:01:58and looking after Britain's interests in Europe?
0:01:58 > 0:02:02Thank you. Does the panel think David Cameron has done the right thing
0:02:02 > 0:02:05by listening to his own party
0:02:05 > 0:02:08in order to protect Britain's interests in Europe?
0:02:08 > 0:02:12This has been the big story of the week. Let's start with you, Keith.
0:02:12 > 0:02:16I completely disagree with what David Cameron has done.
0:02:16 > 0:02:17He's looking after the city of London
0:02:17 > 0:02:20rather than the rest of the UK.
0:02:20 > 0:02:26If you want to win an argument, you don't isolate yourself and pull out.
0:02:26 > 0:02:30You stay in and argue, and then maybe you'll win.
0:02:30 > 0:02:36What concerns me most is that we as a country, Wales,
0:02:36 > 0:02:39export around £5 billion to Europe.
0:02:39 > 0:02:44500 million people live in Europe.
0:02:44 > 0:02:49That supports over 150,000 jobs in Wales.
0:02:49 > 0:02:54Are people on the Continent now going to buy goods from us,
0:02:54 > 0:02:57or are they going to say, "You don't want to be with us,
0:02:57 > 0:03:00"so forget exporting to us."
0:03:00 > 0:03:04The second thing is that companies from the Far East
0:03:04 > 0:03:10and the USA have invested in Wales because they see a way into Europe.
0:03:10 > 0:03:14Now that we've withdrawn, I think we're in a very dangerous situation.
0:03:14 > 0:03:18So despite all the concerns that have been expressed,
0:03:18 > 0:03:21you'd have been a part of this agreement, and you'd have stayed in?
0:03:21 > 0:03:24I would have stayed in and then argued.
0:03:24 > 0:03:27If you pull out, you won't win any battle.
0:03:27 > 0:03:30But if they weren't willing to compromise,
0:03:30 > 0:03:34what was the point of staying in?
0:03:34 > 0:03:36You keep them there until they do. You put pressure on them.
0:03:36 > 0:03:39In any argument, the worst thing you can do is pull out,
0:03:39 > 0:03:43because you've given up then, and that's what he did.
0:03:43 > 0:03:46Myrddin Edwards, you're part of the coalition
0:03:46 > 0:03:49that's decided that pulling out was the best thing to do.
0:03:49 > 0:03:51We weren't part of the discussions in Europe.
0:03:51 > 0:03:55I'm very disappointed with the result of what happened last week.
0:03:55 > 0:03:58I don't think Cameron did enough work to lay a foundation
0:03:58 > 0:04:01with the other countries before the discussions.
0:04:01 > 0:04:05It's not good enough that he came back with nothing from the table.
0:04:05 > 0:04:08I agree with Keith. You've got to compromise.
0:04:08 > 0:04:11But where was your leader,
0:04:11 > 0:04:15to make sure that he did compromise with these people?
0:04:15 > 0:04:17The leaders of the other countries were there
0:04:17 > 0:04:19but Nick Clegg wasn't in the room.
0:04:19 > 0:04:23Only Merkel and Sarkozy and David Cameron, the heads of government.
0:04:23 > 0:04:27But didn't David Cameron go into that room knowing Nick Clegg's views?
0:04:27 > 0:04:30Or didn't Nick Clegg's opinions count?
0:04:30 > 0:04:33They agreed before he went in, but I think David Cameron used the veto
0:04:33 > 0:04:36without contacting Nick Clegg
0:04:36 > 0:04:38and I don't think that was the right thing to do.
0:04:38 > 0:04:41What does it say about Nick Clegg's influence?
0:04:41 > 0:04:43I think David Cameron
0:04:43 > 0:04:47was protecting the interests of the Tory backbenchers.
0:04:47 > 0:04:53There's a saying that a politician looks after his party and himself,
0:04:53 > 0:04:56but a statesman looks after a country and its people.
0:04:56 > 0:05:00I don't think David Cameron has done a good job in Europe this week.
0:05:00 > 0:05:04But it's not a veto, is it, because the discussions are continuing.
0:05:04 > 0:05:07If you veto, everything stops and a decision is made,
0:05:07 > 0:05:09but that's not what's happened.
0:05:09 > 0:05:13He walked away without saying he was going to be a part
0:05:13 > 0:05:15of this group of 27 that are going to move forwards.
0:05:15 > 0:05:17But who's to say that he was wrong?
0:05:17 > 0:05:19There are reports coming from a few countries
0:05:19 > 0:05:23that they will reconsider and look at this with some suspicion.
0:05:23 > 0:05:29I hear that Sweden and Hungary are seriously reconsidering this
0:05:29 > 0:05:33now that they've gone back to their own parliaments.
0:05:33 > 0:05:37I heard on the radio on the way here that Cameron can go back
0:05:37 > 0:05:41to listen to the discussions and have the option of going back in.
0:05:41 > 0:05:42We'll have to see what he does then.
0:05:42 > 0:05:46I'll come back to the other two on the panel,
0:05:46 > 0:05:51but is there anyone in the audience who's ready to defend David Cameron?
0:05:51 > 0:05:52Huw Richards?
0:05:52 > 0:05:58I don't want to defend Cameron but the big problem with Europe is
0:05:58 > 0:06:00you can't have one policy for 27 countries.
0:06:00 > 0:06:02Back in the 80s,
0:06:02 > 0:06:06I went to Europe almost every month to talk about farming.
0:06:06 > 0:06:10It was impossible then to have one policy
0:06:10 > 0:06:12and that's the problem we've got now.
0:06:12 > 0:06:15You can't have a policy from the Arctic Circle to the Mediterranean,
0:06:15 > 0:06:18from the Atlantic to the Black Sea.
0:06:18 > 0:06:21That's what it all comes down to.
0:06:21 > 0:06:24If we're there, we've got to be a part of it,
0:06:24 > 0:06:27but we shouldn't be controlled by them.
0:06:27 > 0:06:31- So David Cameron was right? - To some degree.
0:06:31 > 0:06:34A little support for him there. I saw another hand up.
0:06:34 > 0:06:38- Bill Hughes, I'm sure you'll say a word in his defence.- I will.
0:06:38 > 0:06:41It's easy for us.
0:06:41 > 0:06:45We've heard from the BBC and from newspapers that support him
0:06:45 > 0:06:47and from newspapers that are against him.
0:06:47 > 0:06:49But at the end of the day,
0:06:49 > 0:06:52there's been no organisation in Europe at all.
0:06:52 > 0:06:56I was there between '93 and '97 on the regions committee,
0:06:56 > 0:06:59and it was a waste of time and money.
0:06:59 > 0:07:03If you didn't pay your taxes tomorrow,
0:07:03 > 0:07:06they'd be after you and you could go to prison.
0:07:06 > 0:07:13But in Europe, it's not written by any kind of accountant.
0:07:13 > 0:07:24Martha Andreas told Kinnock that we can't sign the European results
0:07:24 > 0:07:27because they're not available. That was 35 years ago!
0:07:27 > 0:07:33- And things haven't improved?- They don't do it now.- Harri Roberts?
0:07:33 > 0:07:37From the point of view of his own party, it seems that he's right.
0:07:37 > 0:07:39He's played to the gallery.
0:07:39 > 0:07:42But that's exactly what Nick Clegg has done us well.
0:07:42 > 0:07:45He's played up to his own MPs.
0:07:45 > 0:07:48I'd like to make one other point.
0:07:48 > 0:07:51There are 26 countries that are willing to continue to discuss
0:07:51 > 0:07:54to try and reach an agreement, but what David Cameron has done
0:07:54 > 0:07:57is refuse and close the door on the opportunity
0:07:57 > 0:08:00for the British Government to contribute to the argument.
0:08:00 > 0:08:03The 26 are continuing without the British Government
0:08:03 > 0:08:05and we in Wales, and people in Scotland,
0:08:05 > 0:08:09will suffer because of that, just as Alex Salmond said yesterday
0:08:09 > 0:08:12when there was concern about the discussions regarding the fishing.
0:08:12 > 0:08:17Thank you. Brian Walters? Let's get the microphone to you.
0:08:17 > 0:08:21But would the Labour Party had agreed to it? That's the question.
0:08:21 > 0:08:25The leaders of the Labour Party are also playing to their members.
0:08:25 > 0:08:30We'll ask Keith about that. In the front here, from Ysgol Gyfun Gwyr.
0:08:30 > 0:08:34I just want to ask the panel, more specifically on this matter,
0:08:34 > 0:08:38will the coalition have a negative effect
0:08:38 > 0:08:42on what David Cameron has done in Europe,
0:08:42 > 0:08:48or will the Lib Dems feel happy that Cameron has gone ahead
0:08:48 > 0:08:51without taking any notice of Nick Clegg?
0:08:51 > 0:08:56I'm not happy about the fact that he went ahead without talking to Nick
0:08:56 > 0:09:00and that he withdrew without trying to compromise
0:09:00 > 0:09:02with Angela Merkel and Sarkozy.
0:09:02 > 0:09:04But even before this coalition was formed,
0:09:04 > 0:09:07Cameron moved a group of European MPs from the Conservative group
0:09:07 > 0:09:11in the centre, if you like, to the extreme group,
0:09:11 > 0:09:13the most extreme people.
0:09:13 > 0:09:17So even before the coalition was formed,
0:09:17 > 0:09:22David Cameron tried to isolate himself from Europe.
0:09:22 > 0:09:25Let's hear from Angharad.
0:09:25 > 0:09:29David Cameron certainly hasn't done the right thing
0:09:29 > 0:09:31and he wasn't looking after Britain's interests
0:09:31 > 0:09:34and he certainly wasn't protecting Wales' interests.
0:09:34 > 0:09:36I doubt he considered Wales at all.
0:09:36 > 0:09:39So why did David Cameron do what he did?
0:09:39 > 0:09:43Well, in order to protect the interests of the bankers,
0:09:43 > 0:09:47the interests of the City in London, because the financial sector
0:09:47 > 0:09:49is so important now to the British economy.
0:09:49 > 0:09:53And therefore, it should be protected, shouldn't it?
0:09:53 > 0:09:57But the Labour Party under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown
0:09:57 > 0:10:00pandered to the bankers and the City just us much as David Cameron.
0:10:00 > 0:10:04The result of this is that Britain's wealth
0:10:04 > 0:10:11is now centralised in one small corner of south east England.
0:10:11 > 0:10:15That's harmful to somewhere like Wales
0:10:15 > 0:10:18because if the wealth is there, all the jobs are there.
0:10:18 > 0:10:21Wales needs Europe.
0:10:21 > 0:10:22But what's completely staggering
0:10:22 > 0:10:26is that the Liberal Democrats are still in the coalition.
0:10:26 > 0:10:31If Nick Clegg had any self respect,
0:10:31 > 0:10:33he'd have pulled out of the coalition.
0:10:33 > 0:10:37APPLAUSE
0:10:38 > 0:10:42It's easy for you to say that but pulling out at this point
0:10:42 > 0:10:46is very difficult because of the country's economic situation.
0:10:46 > 0:10:49You don't want to go through another election
0:10:49 > 0:10:54and see the markets go crazy because there's no stability in the country.
0:10:54 > 0:10:57You're in this coalition and you've to go through with it.
0:10:57 > 0:11:00Yes, difficult situations arise and things I don't agree with,
0:11:00 > 0:11:03but walking away is the easy way out.
0:11:03 > 0:11:06As a politician, you have to have principles.
0:11:06 > 0:11:11Once you turn your back on your principles, you're only there
0:11:11 > 0:11:15because you've started to enjoy the power, and there's no purpose to it.
0:11:15 > 0:11:17APPLAUSE
0:11:17 > 0:11:20That's why Nick Clegg wants to back to Europe,
0:11:20 > 0:11:23to try and restore the relationship with Europe,
0:11:23 > 0:11:25to make sure that we don't become an isolated country.
0:11:25 > 0:11:28We've an important part to play in Europe
0:11:28 > 0:11:31and it's better to be inside the tent than outside the tent
0:11:31 > 0:11:33in order to make those changes.
0:11:33 > 0:11:36That's what we're going to fight for in the coalition.
0:11:36 > 0:11:40- Gwynedd Parry?- What we've seen is something very timely,
0:11:40 > 0:11:41and that's a pantomime.
0:11:41 > 0:11:44There are several characters in this pantomime.
0:11:44 > 0:11:48The main character, of course, is David Cameron.
0:11:48 > 0:11:52It was a diplomatic disaster, there's no doubt about that.
0:11:52 > 0:11:55I think the situation has improved a little since then,
0:11:55 > 0:11:58but it was a political disaster for him personally.
0:11:58 > 0:12:03- It was one person against the rest. - But his party didn't think that.
0:12:03 > 0:12:07His party were very happy. People like Bill Hughes were overjoyed.
0:12:07 > 0:12:12It's unbelievable that they can feel that way.
0:12:12 > 0:12:16In this pantomime, think of the pantomime horse.
0:12:16 > 0:12:21If Cameron was the front end, then Clegg was the back end!
0:12:21 > 0:12:22LAUGHTER
0:12:22 > 0:12:26That's because Clegg was completely in the dark.
0:12:26 > 0:12:29I don't know what this definition is of a coalition.
0:12:29 > 0:12:31At one time, I thought there was such a thing
0:12:31 > 0:12:34as collective responsibility in government.
0:12:34 > 0:12:37This man is the Deputy Prime Minister.
0:12:37 > 0:12:41His reaction at the beginning of the week was incredible.
0:12:41 > 0:12:43He didn't turn up in the House of Commons for the discussion.
0:12:43 > 0:12:47He sulked. What kind of politics do we've here?
0:12:47 > 0:12:49What kind of coalition is this?
0:12:49 > 0:12:53Can I also add the point about the Labour Party.
0:12:53 > 0:12:55At the end of the day, in my opinion,
0:12:55 > 0:12:58Cameron didn't have much choice.
0:12:58 > 0:13:02This is the economic legacy of the Labour Party,
0:13:02 > 0:13:08who installed the bankers as Britain's economic brokers.
0:13:08 > 0:13:11They have so much influence and status.
0:13:11 > 0:13:15And of course, what did Brown do when he rescued the banks?
0:13:15 > 0:13:17He didn't put in place any rules.
0:13:17 > 0:13:20He didn't take the opportunity to reform the regulation system
0:13:20 > 0:13:24of the bankers at all and that's what people in Europe are saying.
0:13:24 > 0:13:27Of course, Cameron was right. He was right.
0:13:27 > 0:13:29That's what the rest of Europe wants to do.
0:13:29 > 0:13:32It wants to cut London's greedy bankers down to size.
0:13:32 > 0:13:35So according to the law professor,
0:13:35 > 0:13:38all of the three main parties are at fault.
0:13:38 > 0:13:42I'm reminded of the words of Aldous Huxley, who said,
0:13:42 > 0:13:44"We have the leaders that we deserve."
0:13:44 > 0:13:48Unfortunately, it's a sad situation,
0:13:48 > 0:13:51but that's how a lot of people feel, I'm afraid.
0:13:51 > 0:13:53I'll come back to you. Over to you over here.
0:13:53 > 0:13:57I'm sure other people in Wales feel the same as me.
0:13:57 > 0:14:00I'm worried about the influence the Conservative backbenchers have had.
0:14:00 > 0:14:03They're over represented in Westminster
0:14:03 > 0:14:05from Wales' point of view.
0:14:05 > 0:14:10They've had a big influence on Wales' future position in Europe.
0:14:10 > 0:14:14It worries me that Nick Clegg didn't stand up for the people of Wales
0:14:14 > 0:14:16and represent the whole of Britain,
0:14:16 > 0:14:20and it's the Tory backbenchers that have had a big influence.
0:14:20 > 0:14:22Elin, you asked the question.
0:14:22 > 0:14:25I certainly think that as a Prime Minister,
0:14:25 > 0:14:27you have to show conviction.
0:14:27 > 0:14:31As a field officer myself, I work with young people,
0:14:31 > 0:14:35and it's given us a wonderful starting point for discussions
0:14:35 > 0:14:37in globalisation sessions.
0:14:37 > 0:14:41There's been a lot of response to this decision,
0:14:41 > 0:14:45but then he's shown conviction
0:14:45 > 0:14:49and as a Prime Minister, you have to make difficult decisions.
0:14:49 > 0:14:53Let's go back to the two politicians on the panel.
0:14:53 > 0:14:55Gwynedd Parry suggested
0:14:55 > 0:14:59that you put us in this mess in the first place, Keith Davies.
0:14:59 > 0:15:03That's why Gordon Brown didn't win the last election.
0:15:03 > 0:15:06But of course, we have Ed Miliband now.
0:15:06 > 0:15:10But going back to Cameron, what's disgraceful,
0:15:10 > 0:15:13not only on this issue but on other issues us well,
0:15:13 > 0:15:15is that he has no Plan B.
0:15:15 > 0:15:19If Plan A doesn't work, there's no Plan B,
0:15:19 > 0:15:21and I don't think he's prepared well enough.
0:15:21 > 0:15:24He thought he was going to have his own way.
0:15:24 > 0:15:28Myrddin Edwards, you had two main principles.
0:15:28 > 0:15:32One was PR and you've lost that. That's not going to happen.
0:15:32 > 0:15:37Europe was another cornerstone and that's a mess now as well.
0:15:37 > 0:15:39What's the point of being in the coalition?
0:15:39 > 0:15:44If you think back to the election, no party had a majority
0:15:44 > 0:15:48so we made the difficult decision of forming a stable government.
0:15:48 > 0:15:51We now have 57 MPs
0:15:51 > 0:15:55and about 70% of our manifesto is in the government's plans.
0:15:55 > 0:15:5865% of the Conservatives' policies are...
0:15:58 > 0:16:02So despite what's happened this week, you're happy.
0:16:02 > 0:16:05- You forgot student fees, Dewi. - Student fees is another one.
0:16:05 > 0:16:08I'm not happy about what's happened in Europe
0:16:08 > 0:16:11and that's why I hope Nick Clegg will go back to Europe
0:16:11 > 0:16:13to try and re-establish our relationship.
0:16:13 > 0:16:14We'll see what happens.
0:16:14 > 0:16:17Thank you audience, for your loyalty to Pawb a'i Farn
0:16:17 > 0:16:19on a night like tonight.
0:16:19 > 0:16:23It's time for a break. Join us again in Llanelli in two minutes.
0:16:36 > 0:16:40Welcome back. You're watching this week's edition of Pawb a'i Farn.
0:16:40 > 0:16:42It's our final programme before Christmas.
0:16:42 > 0:16:45Let's move on to our next question, which comes from Rhydian Huws.
0:16:45 > 0:16:47What's your question?
0:16:47 > 0:16:53Mary Portas has made comments about out of town retail parks.
0:16:53 > 0:16:57Is it too late for a town like Llanelli?
0:16:57 > 0:16:59Thank you, Rhydian.
0:16:59 > 0:17:01Mary Portas, we've heard a lot about her this week,
0:17:01 > 0:17:05has made recommendations on how to save the high street,
0:17:05 > 0:17:10but is it too late for many places, including Llanelli?
0:17:10 > 0:17:13Angharad Mair?
0:17:13 > 0:17:16It's been too late for Llanelli for over five years.
0:17:16 > 0:17:18It's heartbreaking for me,
0:17:18 > 0:17:20and I work in the centre of Llanelli every day,
0:17:20 > 0:17:23to see the huge deterioration that's taken place in the town
0:17:23 > 0:17:25over the last few years.
0:17:25 > 0:17:28It's important to note that it's not the economy
0:17:28 > 0:17:30that's caused this deterioration,
0:17:30 > 0:17:38but a lack of vision by the people who were making decisions years ago
0:17:38 > 0:17:43who didn't realise the far reaching effects
0:17:43 > 0:17:46of following the fashion that was happening in big towns and cities
0:17:46 > 0:17:49across Britain for a small town like Llanelli,
0:17:49 > 0:17:55by moving shops out of the town and building a retail park.
0:17:55 > 0:17:57It's heartbreaking.
0:17:57 > 0:18:01What's happened is that Llanelli is a poor town
0:18:01 > 0:18:04and it's the poorest people who are being punished
0:18:04 > 0:18:07because they can't afford to over to Trostre.
0:18:07 > 0:18:11And of course, once one shop goes to Trostre, they all follow.
0:18:11 > 0:18:15Once you make the decision to establish a retail park,
0:18:15 > 0:18:18you have no control over the decisions those shops make.
0:18:18 > 0:18:23But is that park successful? People go there. They enjoy going there.
0:18:23 > 0:18:24Of course.
0:18:24 > 0:18:27That park succeeds because people from a wide area
0:18:27 > 0:18:29go to the Trostre park to shop.
0:18:29 > 0:18:34But town councillors have a duty to their own people
0:18:34 > 0:18:39and the town of Llanelli should have been better looked after.
0:18:39 > 0:18:41On a positive note, I have to say,
0:18:41 > 0:18:46there is a revival now on the eastern side of the town.
0:18:46 > 0:18:50A new theatre is being built next door to us in Tinopolis
0:18:50 > 0:18:54and it'll open next year and I'm looking forward to that.
0:18:54 > 0:18:57So steps are being taken now to make up for the mistakes
0:18:57 > 0:19:01that were made by Llanelli councillors years ago.
0:19:01 > 0:19:05So councillors, and Carmarthenshire County councillors as well, I assume.
0:19:05 > 0:19:06Gwynedd Parry?
0:19:06 > 0:19:12Llanelli is not unique in this regard. Swansea is very similar.
0:19:12 > 0:19:15The centre of Swansea is in a poor state.
0:19:15 > 0:19:18It's a disgrace really that Swansea's main street
0:19:18 > 0:19:20is in the state it's in.
0:19:20 > 0:19:22So Llanelli is not unique. But Angharad is right.
0:19:22 > 0:19:25There's been a lack of vision over the years.
0:19:25 > 0:19:27Vision with regard to planning.
0:19:27 > 0:19:29I don't think anyone ever sat down
0:19:29 > 0:19:31and thought about town planning in Wales
0:19:31 > 0:19:35and thought how to create areas, not only for shops,
0:19:35 > 0:19:38and this is the problem with this Portas report,
0:19:38 > 0:19:40all the emphasis is on the shops.
0:19:40 > 0:19:44We need to create towns that are social places.
0:19:44 > 0:19:46She does suggest that, to be fair.
0:19:48 > 0:19:50It isn't enough, in my opinion.
0:19:50 > 0:19:53It doesn't get to grips with the problem Angharad mentioned,
0:19:53 > 0:19:56these out of town shopping centres.
0:19:56 > 0:20:00It kind of avoids that issue, from what I can see.
0:20:00 > 0:20:05I'd like to see more vision and an emphasis on town centre development.
0:20:05 > 0:20:07Like what? We need ideas.
0:20:07 > 0:20:11It's easy to criticise but how do we move forward?
0:20:11 > 0:20:14The town centre needs to be a place of leisure and socialising.
0:20:14 > 0:20:17It needs to be open to children and families,
0:20:17 > 0:20:19not somewhere that shuts down at 5:00pm
0:20:19 > 0:20:21and turns into a ghost town.
0:20:21 > 0:20:23Right, you look eager to weigh in.
0:20:23 > 0:20:27I don't think it's too late. I disagree with Angharad.
0:20:27 > 0:20:29It's never too late,
0:20:29 > 0:20:32and I totally agree with what Mary Portas is trying to do.
0:20:32 > 0:20:36There was a striking picture in the paper a while ago
0:20:36 > 0:20:38of a high street around 30 years ago.
0:20:38 > 0:20:41You see the butcher and the women's outfitters.
0:20:41 > 0:20:43It's too late to return to that.
0:20:43 > 0:20:46Yes, but then it shows a present day picture of the street
0:20:46 > 0:20:48and you see Marks and Spencer's and KFC,
0:20:48 > 0:20:51two charity shops and two empty shops.
0:20:51 > 0:20:55That is a scene which is reflected across Wales.
0:20:55 > 0:20:59But there are things we can do and I'm glad the Assembly Government
0:20:59 > 0:21:03has followed the Westminster Government
0:21:03 > 0:21:06in extending tax breaks for small businesses.
0:21:06 > 0:21:09That's what hurts and that's what helps, the tax rates.
0:21:09 > 0:21:12So if you extend tax breaks for small businesses,
0:21:12 > 0:21:15that will save them money
0:21:15 > 0:21:20and perhaps provide a boost for new town centre businesses.
0:21:20 > 0:21:22Thanks for now.
0:21:22 > 0:21:24People of Llanelli, how do you feel about this?
0:21:24 > 0:21:29- Emyr Phillips, you owned a business. - Yes, in Burry Port.
0:21:29 > 0:21:33I remember at one point being able to get a made-to-measure suit
0:21:33 > 0:21:35on Burry Port high street.
0:21:35 > 0:21:38Now I can't even get a pair of socks there!
0:21:38 > 0:21:43- Everything's moved to Trostre. - Is that a bad thing?- Yes.
0:21:43 > 0:21:45Yes, what is your point?
0:21:45 > 0:21:48The cost of parking in town,
0:21:48 > 0:21:50in Swansea, is quite expensive,
0:21:50 > 0:21:54and it's free for out of town shopping.
0:21:54 > 0:21:58We need to change those places outside.
0:21:58 > 0:22:01Mary Portas certainly suggested changes to parking. Yes.
0:22:01 > 0:22:05I was going to make the same point that parking is cheap at Trostre
0:22:05 > 0:22:09and it's expensive to park in Llanelli, Cardiff and Swansea.
0:22:09 > 0:22:14Am I right in saying that it's cheap to park in Llanelli over Christmas?
0:22:14 > 0:22:17Yes. But only for a short period of time.
0:22:17 > 0:22:19The county council strategy here is a mess.
0:22:19 > 0:22:23They need to totally reconsider what it is they're trying to do.
0:22:23 > 0:22:25David Darkin.
0:22:25 > 0:22:28There was a report on the news about
0:22:28 > 0:22:31the increase in Christmas shopping carried out on the internet.
0:22:31 > 0:22:36- Is that part of the problem? - That's certainly an issue.
0:22:36 > 0:22:40Llanelli is undergoing change, it's in the middle of change.
0:22:40 > 0:22:45They might take another five years
0:22:45 > 0:22:50before the town sort of fits into the county's strategy.
0:22:50 > 0:22:55We've got the coastline and the tourism centre down by the sea.
0:22:55 > 0:22:57People arrive by train,
0:22:57 > 0:23:03so how are they going to walk down to the tourism centre?
0:23:03 > 0:23:07We need to think creatively.
0:23:08 > 0:23:11Maybe there should be bikes, as there are in Cardiff.
0:23:11 > 0:23:15Two people could be transported down to the tourist centre.
0:23:15 > 0:23:20The problem is the money. Ken Rhys, one of the area's councillors.
0:23:20 > 0:23:23I've been going on about connecting the two places for ages
0:23:23 > 0:23:26via a bus shuttle service.
0:23:26 > 0:23:30So who is against the idea? The town's tradespeople.
0:23:30 > 0:23:33They think that people will go from the town over to there.
0:23:33 > 0:23:35There's another way of looking at it.
0:23:35 > 0:23:38They'll be down there anyway, won't they?
0:23:38 > 0:23:42Yes but there are no unique shops there, only multi-chain stores.
0:23:42 > 0:23:44The small businesses are in the town.
0:23:44 > 0:23:48You can't buy a stamp down there, there are no hair salons.
0:23:48 > 0:23:53We need a link from down there to the town via bus.
0:23:53 > 0:23:59Put it on to cheaply connect the two areas.
0:23:59 > 0:24:02Gethin Thomas, the head teacher of the primary school.
0:24:02 > 0:24:04Gwyneth was talking about the architecture of the town.
0:24:04 > 0:24:07Recently, the school pupils have been doing some work
0:24:07 > 0:24:10on the town's architecture, looking at buildings,
0:24:10 > 0:24:13and if investment had been made in the town,
0:24:13 > 0:24:16it would have built and developed the town exactly
0:24:16 > 0:24:20as has happened in Carmarthen. Because Carmarthen is succeeding.
0:24:20 > 0:24:24There are small retail parks around,
0:24:24 > 0:24:26but the people are at the centre of the town.
0:24:26 > 0:24:29The town is the focus. Cardiff is the same.
0:24:29 > 0:24:31We heard about Swansea,
0:24:31 > 0:24:35and we're hearing about areas in the south-east
0:24:35 > 0:24:39where people travel to Bristol, Cardiff, to these places,
0:24:39 > 0:24:42so they can get all those facilities.
0:24:42 > 0:24:44Too late for Llanelli?
0:24:44 > 0:24:45Not yet, I don't think.
0:24:45 > 0:24:48I think the latest development moving on,
0:24:48 > 0:24:50that will be an exciting development.
0:24:50 > 0:24:54But again, if we could move back and develop further,
0:24:54 > 0:24:55that would be very interesting.
0:24:55 > 0:24:58Voices behind you. You first. Yes.
0:24:58 > 0:25:02I think the county council hasn't been fair to everyone.
0:25:02 > 0:25:06If you park in Llanelli, you don't pay any more.
0:25:06 > 0:25:08The county council has got rid of that.
0:25:08 > 0:25:10I live in Ammanford and I have to pay,
0:25:10 > 0:25:14and we have problems in the town centre, too.
0:25:14 > 0:25:16Yes. Huw Richards, you had something to add.
0:25:16 > 0:25:18Every town is under these pressures.
0:25:18 > 0:25:20It's a fact that supermarkets started the problem,
0:25:20 > 0:25:23because they have killed the small shops.
0:25:23 > 0:25:27- We all go to them. Don't you go to them, Huw?- I do.- There we go.
0:25:27 > 0:25:29But they've killed all the small businesses.
0:25:29 > 0:25:33And the fact, now, that we're trying to re-correct the problem
0:25:33 > 0:25:38and bring these developments into parts of the town.
0:25:38 > 0:25:40Keith Davies, is it too late for Llanelli?
0:25:40 > 0:25:42No, it's not too late for Llanelli.
0:25:42 > 0:25:45As someone has said already, a lot of towns in Wales are like that.
0:25:45 > 0:25:47I've been looking at the statistics,
0:25:47 > 0:25:51because the Enterprise and Business Committee in the Assembly
0:25:51 > 0:25:56has been looking at reviving Wales's towns.
0:25:56 > 0:25:59One of the things they agree on is what Mary Portas did,
0:25:59 > 0:26:02that you have to have a number of things.
0:26:02 > 0:26:06Attractions, as Angharad said, to draw people in.
0:26:06 > 0:26:09But you have to be able to have attractions.
0:26:09 > 0:26:12In Llanelli town centre, is there somewhere we can have a market?
0:26:12 > 0:26:14Well, there is a market there.
0:26:14 > 0:26:18Someone mentioned Furnace, I think Angharad mentioned Furnace.
0:26:18 > 0:26:21We spend millions on Llanelly House.
0:26:21 > 0:26:23Reasons to come into the town.
0:26:23 > 0:26:27The other thing that'll come out of our report in the Assembly is this,
0:26:27 > 0:26:31if you drive through the High Street in Llanelli now, look up.
0:26:31 > 0:26:34Gethin was talking about driving through the street.
0:26:34 > 0:26:37I was going through the street, and you'll see there
0:26:37 > 0:26:39that there are shops on the ground floor,
0:26:39 > 0:26:43but there are then three or four storeys which are empty.
0:26:43 > 0:26:47We're looking for a way to get people affordable housing.
0:26:47 > 0:26:51You were a councillor before you went to the Assembly, Keith.
0:26:51 > 0:26:56Have councils got it wrong, lack of vision, going in the wrong direction?
0:26:56 > 0:27:00Following, what Angharad said earlier, following the fashion.
0:27:00 > 0:27:04But what we're doing now, I think Trostre is flourishing.
0:27:04 > 0:27:07People come from South Wales to shop at Trostre.
0:27:07 > 0:27:08But what we need to do now...
0:27:08 > 0:27:10But not to the centre of Llanelli. That's it.
0:27:10 > 0:27:12But we need to work on that now.
0:27:12 > 0:27:14You didn't have hope at the start, Angharad,
0:27:14 > 0:27:16is there a glimmer of hope now?
0:27:16 > 0:27:19There is certainly a revival, but it follows the fashion you see
0:27:19 > 0:27:21that works well in places like Cardiff,
0:27:21 > 0:27:24where there are enough people and enough shops
0:27:24 > 0:27:27to support the retail park and the city centre,
0:27:27 > 0:27:29and the large cities and towns of England.
0:27:29 > 0:27:32Our problem sometimes in Wales is that we don't remember
0:27:32 > 0:27:35that we're a small country and we have to protect
0:27:35 > 0:27:38these small pockets we have, in a rural country, as well,
0:27:38 > 0:27:41rather than seeing what's happening in big towns
0:27:41 > 0:27:44and thinking they're right. They're not.
0:27:44 > 0:27:47It sounds to me as if the audience agrees with that on the whole.
0:27:47 > 0:27:49Let's move on to our third question tonight.
0:27:49 > 0:27:54That question comes, if you're ready, from Huw Lewis, at the back.
0:27:54 > 0:27:59Considering binge drinking will be a big problem again this Christmas,
0:27:59 > 0:28:04is it time shops were prevented from selling alcohol cheaply?
0:28:04 > 0:28:06Huw asks, considering that binge drinking
0:28:06 > 0:28:08will be a big problem again this Christmas,
0:28:08 > 0:28:12is it time that shops were prevented from selling alcohol cheaply?
0:28:12 > 0:28:15I'll start with you, Gwynedd Parry, this time.
0:28:15 > 0:28:20This is a big problem, of course. I was speaking to a circuit judge
0:28:20 > 0:28:23who sits at Swansea Crown Court just last week,
0:28:23 > 0:28:27and he said that what he's noticed in the last 10 or 15 years
0:28:27 > 0:28:30is the increase in the number of criminals who appear before him
0:28:30 > 0:28:33who have abused drugs, especially, but also alcohol.
0:28:33 > 0:28:36After all, alcohol is a drug, anyway.
0:28:36 > 0:28:38This is, then, a big problem.
0:28:38 > 0:28:40I think there are two elements to it.
0:28:40 > 0:28:45Firstly, this problem of availability, that it's cheap.
0:28:45 > 0:28:46This is a big problem.
0:28:46 > 0:28:52I think two things can be done. Firstly, you can make it expensive,
0:28:52 > 0:28:55that is, getting to grips with the issue of cost,
0:28:55 > 0:28:58perhaps through taxation or some other way.
0:28:58 > 0:29:00- Would you be in favour of legislation?- I certainly would.
0:29:00 > 0:29:03And the second thing would be to strengthen laws
0:29:03 > 0:29:06in terms of licensing places that can sell alcohol.
0:29:06 > 0:29:11They need to be strengthened to ensure that it's not possible
0:29:11 > 0:29:14to buy alcohol in your local shop,
0:29:14 > 0:29:17in that way, making it difficult to get hold of it,
0:29:17 > 0:29:20being stricter in terms of licensing.
0:29:20 > 0:29:24The other thing, of course, is the cultural side of the whole thing.
0:29:24 > 0:29:30You have advertising, of course, that went for smoking years ago.
0:29:30 > 0:29:33Smoking has become very, very unfashionable now.
0:29:33 > 0:29:36We need to get to grips with what supports this culture
0:29:36 > 0:29:40that makes binge drinking an acceptable thing.
0:29:40 > 0:29:44But isn't that British culture that won't be easily changed?
0:29:45 > 0:29:49Well, it's a very deep problem, I accept that,
0:29:49 > 0:29:52but you can take some steps to get to grips with that.
0:29:52 > 0:29:55Advertising, education, of course, is very important.
0:29:55 > 0:29:56But that happens.
0:29:56 > 0:30:01Aren't people aware of the seriousness of liver diseases
0:30:01 > 0:30:02caused by alcohol?
0:30:02 > 0:30:05For some reason, the message doesn't hit home, does it?
0:30:05 > 0:30:09So we have to think of other ways of communicating this message.
0:30:09 > 0:30:12Thank you very much, Gwynedd. Myrddin Edwards.
0:30:12 > 0:30:16I'm not sure if I completely agree with raising the price of alcohol,
0:30:16 > 0:30:19because it's not fair that we punish the sensible majority
0:30:19 > 0:30:22for the faults of the minority.
0:30:22 > 0:30:25So no to a minimum price?
0:30:25 > 0:30:28I'd like to see the effect it has in another country
0:30:28 > 0:30:31before we think about introducing it in Wales.
0:30:31 > 0:30:33To tell the truth, I don't think we have the powers yet.
0:30:33 > 0:30:35Scotland is doing something...
0:30:35 > 0:30:39They've got rid of these deals you see in Tesco or Asda,
0:30:39 > 0:30:42where you get three bottles of wine for £10. They've got rid of that.
0:30:42 > 0:30:45And, as I say, I don't think you should punish the majority
0:30:45 > 0:30:47for the faults of the minority,
0:30:47 > 0:30:50but I do agree that more awareness needs to be raised
0:30:50 > 0:30:53about the effect this has on people's health.
0:30:53 > 0:30:55We've seen anti-smoking campaigns,
0:30:55 > 0:31:00and it's true that people's smoking levels have gone down.
0:31:00 > 0:31:05But I'd like to see the same kind of campaigns aimed at binge drinking.
0:31:05 > 0:31:08Not drinking, because we all enjoy a drink now and then,
0:31:08 > 0:31:11but binge drinking, which can have effects on your health,
0:31:11 > 0:31:14and it's also a great expense for the health service.
0:31:14 > 0:31:17Huw Lewis, it's obviously a cause for concern for you.
0:31:17 > 0:31:18What's your position on this?
0:31:18 > 0:31:21Would you like to see a minimum price?
0:31:21 > 0:31:24I think it would help, but much more that that needs to be done.
0:31:24 > 0:31:29I think there's an opportunity here for all the parties to co-operate
0:31:29 > 0:31:33on the biggest social problem we have facing us today.
0:31:33 > 0:31:36It's much worse than any other drug.
0:31:36 > 0:31:40This is the most dangerous drug to people's health.
0:31:40 > 0:31:45It was on the news recently there's an epidemic of liver diseases
0:31:45 > 0:31:51in young people, and a specialist doctor was talking about it.
0:31:51 > 0:31:55And not only that, but it even affects babies in the womb.
0:31:55 > 0:31:57It's unbelievable.
0:31:57 > 0:32:02A report was published last year by Swansea University
0:32:02 > 0:32:06which showed the cost of alcohol misuse to the country,
0:32:06 > 0:32:07to the taxpayers.
0:32:07 > 0:32:10- It's high time the politicians... - But how does it change?
0:32:10 > 0:32:13- You clearly think that the drinking culture is to blame.- Of course.
0:32:13 > 0:32:15How do you change that culture?
0:32:15 > 0:32:18Well, I think each party needs to come together and work on the laws
0:32:18 > 0:32:24and the culture, too, and certainly in the world of education.
0:32:24 > 0:32:25Gethin Thomas again?
0:32:25 > 0:32:31I'd agree that it's time to put quite a tough price on drink.
0:32:31 > 0:32:34The problem is, when it's available in the supermarkets
0:32:34 > 0:32:36it's considerably cheaper,
0:32:36 > 0:32:41people go there, and we see the problems here in the town.
0:32:41 > 0:32:44They don't hide the fact and it's in every area
0:32:44 > 0:32:47because young people have the chance to access it
0:32:47 > 0:32:53and that leads to the anti-social problems that come as a result.
0:32:53 > 0:32:56So I'm very worried, and I'd like to see a price rise.
0:32:56 > 0:32:58Gethin referring to young people. Rhydian?
0:32:58 > 0:33:02I'd say that the cause of binge drinking in this country
0:33:02 > 0:33:06is the terrible unemployment that's been here since the 1980s,
0:33:06 > 0:33:09since Thatcher destroyed manufacturing in this country.
0:33:09 > 0:33:13We see it in countries like Russia,
0:33:13 > 0:33:19after the collapse of the Soviet Union, people's workplaces closed,
0:33:19 > 0:33:22and people lost hope, and it's happening here.
0:33:22 > 0:33:26When people lose hope, they turn to the bottle for hope.
0:33:26 > 0:33:30So my suggestion would be to reopen factories and coal mines in Wales,
0:33:30 > 0:33:36and give work to people, instead of just keeping on shouting.
0:33:36 > 0:33:38An interesting opinion from Rhydian there.
0:33:38 > 0:33:41What about that? Would you agree that a lack of hope
0:33:41 > 0:33:43leads people to turn to drink?
0:33:43 > 0:33:46Binge drinking is an old thing. I'll tell you a story about a minister
0:33:46 > 0:33:49who served in Cwm Gwendraeth, but he came from Tumble.
0:33:49 > 0:33:50He was known as Lewis Tumble.
0:33:50 > 0:33:54He was giving a sermon one Sunday morning at Capel Canna in Meidrim,
0:33:54 > 0:33:56a short distance outsideCarmarthen.
0:33:56 > 0:33:58The topic of the sermon was "the demon drink,"
0:33:58 > 0:34:01and he told the congregation, "As you know, I come from Tumble.
0:34:01 > 0:34:04"We have a pub in Tumble called the Tumble Inn,
0:34:04 > 0:34:06"but you walk in and you tumble out."
0:34:06 > 0:34:08That was... Lewis Tumble died in 1947.
0:34:08 > 0:34:10That was seven decades ago.
0:34:10 > 0:34:11LAUGHTER
0:34:11 > 0:34:14Yes, that is, it's an old problem.
0:34:14 > 0:34:18Thanks for the story and some humour on a Thursday night like this.
0:34:18 > 0:34:21Yes... At the front, here.
0:34:21 > 0:34:26Perhaps the problem is drinking has become very cool for young people,
0:34:26 > 0:34:31and they think drinking is an attractive thing to do.
0:34:31 > 0:34:32Perhaps that's a problem,
0:34:32 > 0:34:36that binge drinking happens amongst young people,
0:34:36 > 0:34:39and then it worsens as they get older.
0:34:39 > 0:34:41Is that true, Rhydian, can I ask you?
0:34:41 > 0:34:44It's become a very cool thing amongst young people.
0:34:44 > 0:34:46- Yes, it has. - But wasn't it always like that?
0:34:46 > 0:34:51Perhaps not always, but it has been getting more and more popular.
0:34:51 > 0:34:56I don't drink at all, but that's not true of the people in my class.
0:34:56 > 0:34:58Would you describe it as a problem?
0:34:58 > 0:35:01- Yes, I would.- That is, do they drink heavily?- Yes.- Yes.
0:35:01 > 0:35:04What, every weekend? Going out means drinking heavily, does it?
0:35:04 > 0:35:05Yes, it does.
0:35:05 > 0:35:08You look at Facebook and Twitter, and all you have to do
0:35:08 > 0:35:11is scroll down a little bit, and somebody's talking about
0:35:11 > 0:35:14how they've been steaming over the weekend,
0:35:14 > 0:35:16or about how they've been out, and it's bad.
0:35:16 > 0:35:18It's bad to look at.
0:35:18 > 0:35:21Right, there we are. Let's return to the panel. Keith, come in.
0:35:21 > 0:35:23Well, one thing, I think, is this advertising.
0:35:23 > 0:35:25TV advertising, and that leads young people.
0:35:25 > 0:35:30There are more young people getting drunk now than ever before
0:35:30 > 0:35:33and someone mentioned that they go to hospital now
0:35:33 > 0:35:37to get treatments on their liver in their twenties,
0:35:37 > 0:35:39where it used to be in your forties and so on.
0:35:39 > 0:35:42But is it a new problem?
0:35:42 > 0:35:44It's a new problem because of the supermarkets
0:35:44 > 0:35:48where you can buy drink cheaper and one other thing I've noticed
0:35:48 > 0:35:51is that some nightclubs charge £5 to get in,
0:35:51 > 0:35:58then you get into the nightclub and you can get a drink for 10p.
0:35:58 > 0:36:01And that leads young people to...
0:36:02 > 0:36:05So the decision made by the Labour Westminster Government
0:36:05 > 0:36:08to extend opening hours to 24 hours a day didn't help.
0:36:08 > 0:36:11I don't think that has affected things that much.
0:36:11 > 0:36:16- It's the supermarkets that are the problem.- You are sighing.
0:36:16 > 0:36:19You can come back in. Wait a minute. I'd like to hear from Angharad.
0:36:19 > 0:36:24Hear, hear, regarding the gentleman who asked the original question.
0:36:24 > 0:36:28There are 13,000 new cases of cancer every year in the UK,
0:36:28 > 0:36:30as a result of alcohol.
0:36:30 > 0:36:34There are many deaths among young people
0:36:34 > 0:36:38aged 15-24 as a result of alcohol.
0:36:38 > 0:36:44You were talking about the SNP doing great work in Scotland.
0:36:44 > 0:36:49They have ensured that there is a minimum price for alcohol.
0:36:49 > 0:36:52They've stopped a lot of the deals.
0:36:52 > 0:36:54Certainly, we need a minimum price, as they do.
0:36:56 > 0:36:58But it's an old problem,
0:36:58 > 0:37:01and yet, looking back to when I was 18 years old,
0:37:01 > 0:37:06alcohol was expensive, you couldn't buy it at supermarkets, you had
0:37:06 > 0:37:10to either go to an off licence or you had to go to a pub to drink it.
0:37:10 > 0:37:12We didn't have the alcopops either,
0:37:12 > 0:37:17drinks that are made to taste sweet, so that children can drink alcohol.
0:37:17 > 0:37:23All that has changed during the past 30 years.
0:37:23 > 0:37:27This problem is much worse than it has been.
0:37:27 > 0:37:32And I'm grateful Scotland are leading the way, especially
0:37:32 > 0:37:37the SNP, leading the way in trying to safeguard people from alcohol.
0:37:37 > 0:37:41You can sum up, like every good judge!
0:37:41 > 0:37:44Well, this is not a problem for the poor.
0:37:44 > 0:37:48What about it being the problem of the unemployed and those in despair?
0:37:48 > 0:37:52It is also that, but it's a problem for young people,
0:37:52 > 0:37:56it's a problem for students and the middle aged,
0:37:56 > 0:38:00rich people, the elderly. This goes right across society.
0:38:00 > 0:38:03We are all responsible for this.
0:38:03 > 0:38:08We cannot put it in a box and say it's a problem for the poor.
0:38:08 > 0:38:12We must look at this in its entirety and have strict measures.
0:38:12 > 0:38:15As Angharad said,
0:38:15 > 0:38:19we need the Government to do something about this.
0:38:19 > 0:38:22We have opened the door on that debate.
0:38:22 > 0:38:26Thank you and thank you to the audience, here in Llanelli.
0:38:26 > 0:38:28Join us once more after the break.
0:38:45 > 0:38:49Welcome back to this week's Pawb a'i Farn.
0:38:49 > 0:38:51We're in Llanelli, where it is cold,
0:38:51 > 0:38:53but the debate is keeping us warm.
0:38:53 > 0:38:58Now, we move on to the next question from David. What is your question?
0:38:58 > 0:39:03In this area, cuts are threatening hospitals, elderly services
0:39:03 > 0:39:07and libraries and yet cuts must be made.
0:39:07 > 0:39:11- What would the panel do? - Cuts, cuts and more cuts.
0:39:11 > 0:39:15This was a subject we discussed at the start of the year.
0:39:15 > 0:39:19David is asking, in this area there are cuts threatening hospitals,
0:39:19 > 0:39:24elderly services and libraries and yet cuts must be made.
0:39:24 > 0:39:26How would you deal with this?
0:39:26 > 0:39:30The services you have mentioned are vitally important to the community.
0:39:30 > 0:39:34I don't think you need to close any of those services.
0:39:34 > 0:39:38Money is short, but we must ensure that the local authorities
0:39:38 > 0:39:43and the health boards running these services spend this money wisely.
0:39:43 > 0:39:47The health service, for example, is going through a difficult time,
0:39:47 > 0:39:50although it has had a lot of money over the years,
0:39:50 > 0:39:53over the past decade, we have seen growth in the health budget,
0:39:53 > 0:39:58but now the health boards are receiving less money...
0:39:58 > 0:40:02- They are in debt.- They are in debt.
0:40:02 > 0:40:06Unless they get enough money by the end of March,
0:40:06 > 0:40:08they will be in difficulty.
0:40:08 > 0:40:12Let's be specific. What about Prince Philip Hospital in Llanelli?
0:40:12 > 0:40:16- Would you make cuts there?- No.
0:40:16 > 0:40:20There have been a lot of cuts at the hospital already,
0:40:20 > 0:40:24such as maternity services and emergency services.
0:40:24 > 0:40:28We don't want to see more services going from that hospital.
0:40:28 > 0:40:32It's a hospital for people in Llanelli.
0:40:32 > 0:40:38But the local health boards are not spending the money wisely.
0:40:38 > 0:40:44For example, there is a problem with a shortage of doctors.
0:40:44 > 0:40:48They have to pay for locum doctors and agency nurses.
0:40:48 > 0:40:52There are problems in that they cannot provide the continual care
0:40:52 > 0:40:55that people need and also, agency nurses
0:40:55 > 0:40:58and locums cost a lot of money.
0:40:58 > 0:41:02So the problem isn't the cuts, it's that money is not spent wisely.
0:41:02 > 0:41:04Yes, that is the problem.
0:41:04 > 0:41:08We have seen growth in budgets over the years, over the past decade.
0:41:08 > 0:41:09But when it comes down to it,
0:41:09 > 0:41:14Labour and the health boards didn't prepare for these tough times.
0:41:14 > 0:41:18They spent money without thinking about spending it wisely.
0:41:18 > 0:41:22As a member of the party in Wales, Keith, what do you think?
0:41:22 > 0:41:25We've tried to rescue the NHS in Wales this past year
0:41:25 > 0:41:28by giving them extra money
0:41:28 > 0:41:33and I agree with what has been said, we must look at the health boards.
0:41:33 > 0:41:37Hywel Dda has had £47 million extra this year.
0:41:37 > 0:41:42Last week, I think they were estimating they were going
0:41:42 > 0:41:46to overspend £4 million by the end of the financial year.
0:41:46 > 0:41:50The minister has said there is no more money available.
0:41:50 > 0:41:54But if you look at yesterday's Llanelli Star
0:41:54 > 0:42:00and today's Western Mail, the health board has appointed some bloke
0:42:00 > 0:42:05from Rochdale to come down from Rochdale to plan a strategy.
0:42:05 > 0:42:10That's because they're not spending wisely, according to Myrddin.
0:42:10 > 0:42:16I agree. But the cost of that bloke's wages will be £100,000.
0:42:16 > 0:42:19That was in the paper today.
0:42:19 > 0:42:21In today's Western Mail,
0:42:21 > 0:42:26they're appointing someone at Trinity College.
0:42:26 > 0:42:30They're going to overspend. How can they appoint these people?
0:42:30 > 0:42:36- Labour are in charge. Can't you tell them?- I'll be writing to them.
0:42:36 > 0:42:41- I only read about it today. - So what is the problem in this area?
0:42:41 > 0:42:46If you look back at the history, they're moving the money away
0:42:46 > 0:42:53from Llanelli to Carmarthen, even though most people live in Llanelli.
0:42:53 > 0:42:58- Ken Rees?- They're centralising specialist services in Carmarthen.
0:42:58 > 0:43:03We're losing out in Llanelli. Most of the population is here.
0:43:03 > 0:43:09But the days when we had a general hospital on the doorstep have gone.
0:43:09 > 0:43:12Yes, but specialist services...
0:43:12 > 0:43:17Prince Philip Hospital is doing well with what they have got.
0:43:17 > 0:43:21The problem is the health board is not accountable to the local people.
0:43:21 > 0:43:23They're accountable
0:43:23 > 0:43:27to the minister in Cardiff, to an extent, but locally,
0:43:27 > 0:43:30we don't have a voice as the people of Llanelli
0:43:30 > 0:43:33who want a hospital in Llanelli.
0:43:33 > 0:43:39- Angharad, come in on this. - Let's expand the matter a little.
0:43:39 > 0:43:45Where should cuts be made in such a tough economic time?
0:43:45 > 0:43:50Cut defence. That's the answer.
0:43:53 > 0:43:57If I can return to the question, this rhetoric
0:43:57 > 0:44:01in the London newspapers, Great Britain leaving Europe.
0:44:01 > 0:44:06- It's nonsense.- But in the case of Wales,
0:44:06 > 0:44:10the Assembly Government does not have a defence budget.
0:44:10 > 0:44:13No, but the question was where the cuts are needed.
0:44:13 > 0:44:17It was dangerous the way that Labour and Britain followed the US
0:44:17 > 0:44:23into Iraq and spent billions of pounds, it is still being wasted.
0:44:23 > 0:44:27There wouldn't be a problem in places like Llanelli
0:44:27 > 0:44:31because there would be more money coming to Wales.
0:44:31 > 0:44:33But looking specifically at something
0:44:33 > 0:44:36like Prince Philip Hospital, we need a general hospital
0:44:36 > 0:44:40in a town like Llanelli, including emergency services.
0:44:40 > 0:44:42Carmarthen is 20 miles away.
0:44:42 > 0:44:48If anything happens to anyone living in the town, 20 miles is too far.
0:44:48 > 0:44:51But to get the best possible care, shouldn't we be centralising more?
0:44:51 > 0:44:57- It's fine to centralise specialist services.- 20 miles isn't far.
0:44:57 > 0:44:59It's fine with specialist services,
0:44:59 > 0:45:03but when you come to something like emergency services, everyone knows
0:45:03 > 0:45:08if anything happens to you that first ten minutes is critical.
0:45:08 > 0:45:12But imagine you lived Aberdaron and had to go to Ysbyty Gwynedd.
0:45:12 > 0:45:15Llanelli is a big town, Carmarthen is a big town,
0:45:15 > 0:45:17Aberystwyth is a big town.
0:45:17 > 0:45:23Managing finance, you need to make efficiency savings.
0:45:23 > 0:45:25That is part of the story.
0:45:25 > 0:45:28But we forget the other part of the story.
0:45:28 > 0:45:33If you want quality public services, you need income. And that's tax.
0:45:33 > 0:45:35- Raising taxes.- Raising taxes.
0:45:35 > 0:45:40We're the country that pays the least amount of tax in Europe,
0:45:40 > 0:45:43- apart from Switzerland. - People wouldn't vote for you!
0:45:43 > 0:45:45You can't have it all ways.
0:45:45 > 0:45:48You can't complain that public services are poor
0:45:48 > 0:45:54- and then avoid paying tax. - Would you pay higher taxes? No, no.
0:45:56 > 0:45:59There's your answer. They wouldn't.
0:45:59 > 0:46:03As long as people accept that is the choice, they can't have it all ways.
0:46:03 > 0:46:06The Labour government of Brown gave people the impression
0:46:06 > 0:46:11you can have quality public services without paying tax.
0:46:11 > 0:46:14We all know what happened to him. Debt.
0:46:14 > 0:46:19- You have to live within your means. - You don't like Gordon Brown.
0:46:19 > 0:46:22That's the second time you've criticised him.
0:46:24 > 0:46:29I'd like to move on and fit in one more question
0:46:29 > 0:46:33and maybe finish on a Christmassy note.
0:46:33 > 0:46:36The question comes from Sam Davies.
0:46:37 > 0:46:40- Away you go, Sam.- OK.
0:46:40 > 0:46:43Well, according to a survey this week,
0:46:43 > 0:46:48a lot of men believe women go to too much trouble at Christmas.
0:46:48 > 0:46:51- What does the panel think? - According to a survey this week,
0:46:51 > 0:46:56a lot of men believe women go to too much trouble at Christmas.
0:46:56 > 0:47:00What does the panel think? Shall I start with or end with Angharad?
0:47:02 > 0:47:05Men, be brief. Myrddin.
0:47:05 > 0:47:09Mam and Dad are in Cardiff shopping right now
0:47:09 > 0:47:12and Mam is dragging him round the shops.
0:47:12 > 0:47:15I don't think he's enjoying himself.
0:47:15 > 0:47:19I don't think there's much truth in it.
0:47:19 > 0:47:22- Keith, what happens at your house? - I agree with the question.
0:47:22 > 0:47:24That means I don't have to do anything!
0:47:24 > 0:47:28- So you're prepared to take it easy. - Yes, she can do everything.
0:47:28 > 0:47:30I disagree.
0:47:30 > 0:47:35- May I thank my wife Meinir publicly for all the work she does!- Oh!
0:47:37 > 0:47:40There's a Christmas present for Gwynedd!
0:47:40 > 0:47:42You have half a minute, Angharad.
0:47:42 > 0:47:47I was in a meeting this time last year with a group of men
0:47:47 > 0:47:51like these and they were all calm and that was because they had wives.
0:47:51 > 0:47:56I have a poor dab of a husband at home and I work,
0:47:56 > 0:47:59so he has to do his share and I thank him for that.
0:47:59 > 0:48:03That's it. I think we'll end on that note.
0:48:03 > 0:48:05Thank you to the people of Llanelli.
0:48:05 > 0:48:10It's been lovely being here on such a busy night.
0:48:10 > 0:48:15And thank you to the panel for your contributions. That's it for 2011.
0:48:15 > 0:48:20We'll be back in the New Year, kicking off in Amlwch.
0:48:20 > 0:48:25But for now, Merry Christmas and good night.