0:00:24 > 0:00:26On today's panel in Amlwch -
0:00:26 > 0:00:29The General Secretary of the Union of Welsh Independents,
0:00:29 > 0:00:31the Reverend Dr Geraint Tudur.
0:00:31 > 0:00:35Two MPs. From Aberconwy, the Conservative, Guto Bebb.
0:00:35 > 0:00:37From Dwyfor Meirionydd, Elfyn Llwyd from Plaid Cymru.
0:00:37 > 0:00:42Completing the panel, the clinical psychologist, Dr Mair Edwards.
0:00:42 > 0:00:45Please give them a warm welcome.
0:00:58 > 0:01:03Good evening. It's Thursday night and time for another hour of discussion.
0:01:03 > 0:01:07Welcome to the first edition of Pawb a'i Farn in 2012.
0:01:07 > 0:01:11We start the year in the north of Anglesey, in the town of Amlwch.
0:01:11 > 0:01:14We haven't been here for many years
0:01:14 > 0:01:18but I'm sure one of our topics was discussed the last time as well.
0:01:18 > 0:01:21A handful of questions have already been chosen.
0:01:21 > 0:01:25I'm grateful to our audience for offering so many of them.
0:01:25 > 0:01:28We have people here from all over the island and some have travelled
0:01:28 > 0:01:34over the Menai knowing they'll be part of the same constituency soon.
0:01:34 > 0:01:36If you want to join us in the next few weeks,
0:01:36 > 0:01:40we'll be in Newcastle Emlyn, Ruthin and Cardiff.
0:01:40 > 0:01:44You're welcome to contribute to the discussion as usual on Twitter
0:01:44 > 0:01:46or by send us an e-mail.
0:01:46 > 0:01:49The addresses are on the screen.
0:01:49 > 0:01:54That's enough from me, let's have our first question asked by Dylan Morgan.
0:01:54 > 0:01:55What's your question?
0:01:55 > 0:02:00The International Journal of Cancer has published results
0:02:01 > 0:02:04by three scientific bodies in France which show an increase
0:02:04 > 0:02:07in child leukaemia near nuclear power stations.
0:02:07 > 0:02:10Similar results have been published in Germany.
0:02:10 > 0:02:15Is it morally right to carry on with plans to build
0:02:15 > 0:02:17new nuclear power stations?
0:02:17 > 0:02:21Dylan talking about research work done in France and Germany
0:02:21 > 0:02:23that shows an increase in child leukaemia
0:02:23 > 0:02:25near nuclear power stations.
0:02:25 > 0:02:32Is it morally right to carry on with plans to build new nuclear stations?
0:02:32 > 0:02:34Let's start with Guto Bebb.
0:02:34 > 0:02:37I think the world 'moral' is interesting here.
0:02:37 > 0:02:41If every report that's been published about the connection
0:02:41 > 0:02:45between cancer and nuclear power stations,
0:02:45 > 0:02:48if every one of them said there was a definite connection
0:02:48 > 0:02:50then I would say it immoral.
0:02:50 > 0:02:54But while some people can name studies from France and Germany
0:02:54 > 0:02:57I can sit here and mention reports from Switzerland.
0:02:57 > 0:03:00The Swiss held research on 1. 3 million children
0:03:00 > 0:03:02that were born in the last 20 years.
0:03:02 > 0:03:05There are five nuclear stations in Switzerland,
0:03:05 > 0:03:09and the report concluded there was no connection.
0:03:09 > 0:03:11In the same way there's a committee in Britain
0:03:11 > 0:03:14that's been looking at the situation here since 1969
0:03:14 > 0:03:18have come to the conclusion there is no statistical connection...
0:03:18 > 0:03:21But what Dylan has said seems to be sound evidence.
0:03:21 > 0:03:24The International Journal of Cancer.
0:03:24 > 0:03:26I hope you're not suggesting that Berne University
0:03:26 > 0:03:30is likely to be misleading people with their studies.
0:03:30 > 0:03:33We have different evidence from different sources.
0:03:33 > 0:03:37In those circumstances, using the word 'moral' is unfortunate.
0:03:37 > 0:03:39Or too strong a word?
0:03:39 > 0:03:43It's too strong in the fact that the evidence isn't consistent.
0:03:43 > 0:03:46The climate change committee in the Commons
0:03:46 > 0:03:49has conducted a study on nuclear power station safety
0:03:49 > 0:03:51following what happened in Japan.
0:03:51 > 0:03:55They have come to the conclusion the Government needs to move on
0:03:55 > 0:03:56with nuclear power stations.
0:03:56 > 0:04:00Can I jump in and ask, do you accept there is uncertainty,
0:04:00 > 0:04:04there is evidence on the one hand and on the other.
0:04:04 > 0:04:05There is uncertainty.
0:04:05 > 0:04:08I haven't read the report from France
0:04:08 > 0:04:11but when you look at Switzerland who has looked at every child
0:04:11 > 0:04:14born in the last 20 years, the population is 10 million,
0:04:14 > 0:04:171.3 million children have been part of the study.
0:04:17 > 0:04:21- I think the study...- So in your opinion there is no uncertainty.
0:04:21 > 0:04:24I am suspicious. As a father of five who lives near Anglesey
0:04:24 > 0:04:28I wouldn't want a station that endangers my children's health.
0:04:28 > 0:04:31I don't think there is that danger.
0:04:31 > 0:04:34There is a basic question here.
0:04:34 > 0:04:37In Anglesey, we are losing our young people.
0:04:37 > 0:04:42We see it in my constituency of Conwy, in Anglesey and Gwynedd,
0:04:42 > 0:04:45we see this high unemployment in young people.
0:04:45 > 0:04:48We need to consider the economic contribution
0:04:48 > 0:04:51a new station would make. We have to take this into consideration.
0:04:51 > 0:04:53Elfyn Llwyd, where do you stand on this?
0:04:53 > 0:04:58Well, for once I agree with Guto, the majority of what he's said.
0:04:58 > 0:05:02There is a committee called the COMARE Committee
0:05:02 > 0:05:07which has been dealing with this work for some years.
0:05:07 > 0:05:11They have conducted research around the 13 nuclear stations
0:05:11 > 0:05:13in the British Isles.
0:05:13 > 0:05:16They haven't found any evidence to justify what's being said
0:05:16 > 0:05:17in this study.
0:05:17 > 0:05:21I'd like to know the sample size of this study,
0:05:21 > 0:05:27where it was done. We can all throw figures about.
0:05:27 > 0:05:31But if I thought there was a definite danger
0:05:31 > 0:05:34I wouldn't be sitting here saying anything but close them.
0:05:34 > 0:05:37- I don't see it like that. - You don't see any uncertainty?
0:05:37 > 0:05:39I don't...
0:05:39 > 0:05:41It's not definite one way or the other...
0:05:41 > 0:05:43But isn't that uncertainty?
0:05:43 > 0:05:48Well, you can't... Dylan's laughing, he's the one calling it immoral.
0:05:48 > 0:05:51He can't prove his figures more than I can prove mine.
0:05:51 > 0:05:53Dylan, you can respond in a second.
0:05:53 > 0:05:57I'd rather depend on a study that's been done over several years
0:05:57 > 0:06:01in 13 stations by a completely independent committee.
0:06:01 > 0:06:06So, you're 100% in favour of a new station in Anglesey?
0:06:06 > 0:06:10I'm not saying that this moral justification to close them,
0:06:10 > 0:06:13that that stacks up. In my opinion, it doesn't.
0:06:13 > 0:06:17If it did, I'd agree with him.
0:06:17 > 0:06:19- Mair Edwards.- I've read the paper.
0:06:19 > 0:06:24What it says there is that within five kilometres
0:06:24 > 0:06:30of the nuclear stations in France, there's twice the number
0:06:30 > 0:06:35of child leukaemia cases in those areas
0:06:35 > 0:06:37compared with the general population.
0:06:37 > 0:06:43What it also says is they can't prove it's a direct connection
0:06:43 > 0:06:46but they need to do more research.
0:06:46 > 0:06:49Part of the problem with this type of research is
0:06:49 > 0:06:54only a small number has leukaemia.
0:06:54 > 0:06:59But, of course, for those individual it is a terrible experience.
0:06:59 > 0:07:06From having all the data, collecting all the date together,
0:07:06 > 0:07:11studies are needed across the world to look at all the figures.
0:07:11 > 0:07:13But what would you say?
0:07:13 > 0:07:20As a mother, I think it would be very difficult
0:07:20 > 0:07:24to live close to a power station if I thought there was any risk,
0:07:24 > 0:07:28that my child would suffer as a result of this.
0:07:28 > 0:07:32Until we have more information,
0:07:32 > 0:07:35we should use the research work carefully
0:07:35 > 0:07:39in order to make very different decisions
0:07:39 > 0:07:41considering that we need energy.
0:07:41 > 0:07:48We can't be totally dependable on renewable energy now.
0:07:48 > 0:07:50I know the audience are dying to respond.
0:07:50 > 0:07:54Let's have the last panellist. Geraint, what do you think?
0:07:54 > 0:07:58I haven't been completely opposed to nuclear energy
0:07:58 > 0:08:01and neither have I been enthusiastic for it.
0:08:01 > 0:08:05The industry isn't without its problems.
0:08:05 > 0:08:07We know accidents can happen.
0:08:07 > 0:08:14We know the power stations are targets for terrorists.
0:08:15 > 0:08:18We know there are big problems around getting rid of the waste
0:08:18 > 0:08:21that comes from them.
0:08:21 > 0:08:27But if there's a collection of scientists, and they're talking about three inquiries here,
0:08:27 > 0:08:36in France, and one in Germany, if a collection of scientists express the opinion
0:08:36 > 0:08:43that there is reason to believe that there is a connection between leukaemia,
0:08:43 > 0:08:50personally, let me just differentiate, the fact that it's in children doesn't...
0:08:52 > 0:08:58The fact that it could be harmful to any person is enough of a cause.
0:08:58 > 0:09:02- But more emotional, perhaps, when you talk about that.- It's more emotional.
0:09:02 > 0:09:06That's the point. We often use children's health for emotional effect.
0:09:06 > 0:09:09But it's generally true - if there is reason to believe,
0:09:09 > 0:09:15and we can't think that all these studies are done in the same way with the same experiments done,
0:09:15 > 0:09:21perhaps the latest scientists are finding different ways ...
0:09:21 > 0:09:24What about this word, moral? Would it be moral?
0:09:24 > 0:09:28If there is reason to believe that harm is being caused, of course it's immoral.
0:09:28 > 0:09:31We need to wait and get to grips with the matter,
0:09:31 > 0:09:36- and bring these people together to...- Right.
0:09:38 > 0:09:41We'll come back to you panellists. Let's turn to the audience.
0:09:41 > 0:09:44Dylan, you come in, since you asked the question first.
0:09:44 > 0:09:49There's evidence from every direction. Why should we depend on this evidence?
0:09:49 > 0:09:55Just to put this report in context, it was prepared between 2002 and 2007.
0:09:55 > 0:10:00They found 2,753 cases of leukaemia around 19 stations in France.
0:10:03 > 0:10:08I'll also refer to the report from Germany which was published some two years ago.
0:10:08 > 0:10:14Now, that report, it was prepared on the orders of the government,
0:10:14 > 0:10:17so the German government has accepted that report,
0:10:17 > 0:10:21and as a result of that and the Fukushima disaster, of course,
0:10:21 > 0:10:28the German government is closing every nuclear station on German soil by 2022.
0:10:28 > 0:10:33And that report not only referred to leukaemia in children,
0:10:33 > 0:10:37but other types of cancer in adults.
0:10:37 > 0:10:43Yes. Why don't other scientists agree and believe this evidence is the kind of question Guto's sure to ask.
0:10:43 > 0:10:45Come in at the back there.
0:10:45 > 0:10:52We wouldn't expect any better from Guto Bebb, because he's the voice of the British establishment in Wales.
0:10:52 > 0:10:57- But having said that...- Well, Elfyn Llwyd's comments weren't dissimilar.
0:10:57 > 0:11:02But I've been shocked by what Elfyn Llwyd has said here today.
0:11:02 > 0:11:05Elfyn Llwyd is a Plaid Cymru politician.
0:11:05 > 0:11:11Elfyn Llwyd's job is to look after the interests of Welsh communities.
0:11:11 > 0:11:17What he's done tonight is look after the interests of a large global capitalist company...
0:11:17 > 0:11:21- No.- ..which is completely obsessed with making money,
0:11:21 > 0:11:25which is completely obsessed with building a nuclear power station
0:11:25 > 0:11:28which will be dangerous, not only to our children's health,
0:11:28 > 0:11:32but to culture and the language in the north west.
0:11:33 > 0:11:37- Shall we give Elfyn a chance to... - And it's very unfortunate, Elfyn,
0:11:37 > 0:11:40- that you don't show more backbone on this matter...- Right. I've...
0:11:40 > 0:11:46..and follow politicians like Jill Evans and Gwynfor Evans
0:11:46 > 0:11:49who have showed nothing but backbone.
0:11:49 > 0:11:53But your standpoint is unfounded, weak and spineless.
0:11:53 > 0:11:57- Those are serious accusations. Elfyn Llwyd.- If I can answer just a couple of points,
0:11:57 > 0:12:02I have lived within some 12 miles as the crow flies of Trawsfynydd for most of my life,
0:12:02 > 0:12:08and I've made sure that if I thought any harm was being caused in Montgomeryshire,
0:12:08 > 0:12:10I'd have a strong opinion otherwise.
0:12:10 > 0:12:13What I said was that I wouldn't campaign against it.
0:12:13 > 0:12:15I didn't say I'd campaign in favour.
0:12:15 > 0:12:19Can I just say this to you. You talk about the interests of children and young people.
0:12:19 > 0:12:26Do you want to see £42 million leaving the economy of one of the poorest areas in the British Isles?
0:12:26 > 0:12:29- APPLAUSE - If that's what you want, fine.
0:12:30 > 0:12:36What about spending that money on creating sensible, sustainable jobs
0:12:36 > 0:12:40which will be jobs for life, here on Anglesey,
0:12:40 > 0:12:43not jobs for a few years, as building jobs in Wylfa will be.
0:12:43 > 0:12:501,500 people would work in the station once it was built, I understand.
0:12:50 > 0:12:54But it's a matter for you and the people of... And it's not just for Anglesey, either.
0:12:54 > 0:12:58Remember that this decision will be made in London,
0:12:58 > 0:12:59and I won't play a part in that.
0:13:00 > 0:13:03It's fine for you voice your opinion, but consider...
0:13:03 > 0:13:06..the population of Anglesey - if you want to see depopulation...
0:13:06 > 0:13:11..and the language suffering, remove those millions from the economy.
0:13:11 > 0:13:13Right. I'm going up to the back row.
0:13:13 > 0:13:16You're a member of the Caerdegog family.
0:13:16 > 0:13:20You can explain your situation as well as contribute to the debate.
0:13:20 > 0:13:24You may have heard of us. We live right next to the site...
0:13:24 > 0:13:27..where they want to build Wylfa B.
0:13:27 > 0:13:30They're trying to take half of the farm.
0:13:30 > 0:13:35It's a farm where the family has lived for over 300 years.
0:13:35 > 0:13:39What I wanted to ask the panel is wouldn't it be better...
0:13:39 > 0:13:43...for us to concentrate on what we'll lose...
0:13:43 > 0:13:46..rather than what we can gain from this development?
0:13:46 > 0:13:52- Losing what, specifically? - Losing our culture, our language.
0:13:52 > 0:13:56Cemmaes has already lost a lot. I've heard Dad talk about it.
0:13:56 > 0:14:00Cemmaes as a village in the north west of Anglesey...
0:14:00 > 0:14:04..and Welsh was the spoken language years ago.
0:14:04 > 0:14:07When I was at school, English was spoken.
0:14:07 > 0:14:11- That shows the effect of Wylfa A. - You blame Wylfa for that?
0:14:11 > 0:14:15- Hasn't it kept young people on Anglesey?- I don't think so.
0:14:15 > 0:14:20I live in Cemmaes, but I work in Caernarfon.
0:14:20 > 0:14:23I've chosen to live in Cemmaes, but if Wylfa B comes...
0:14:23 > 0:14:27- ..I will consider leaving Cemmaes. - Right. Gareth Jones.
0:14:27 > 0:14:30As someone who lives in the village, we've been to Switzerland...
0:14:30 > 0:14:33..and France, everywhere, I choose to live in Cemmaes.
0:14:33 > 0:14:37Friends of mine who work at Wylfa, no-one in the village has leukaemia.
0:14:37 > 0:14:41I don't know if you have the figures for Cemmaes, Dylan?
0:14:41 > 0:14:44None whatsoever. That's the truth. There are none.
0:14:44 > 0:14:49And if you want to save jobs and the language...
0:14:49 > 0:14:54..keep young people in the village, give them jobs and a future.
0:14:54 > 0:14:57My daughter works in Guildford. She's already left.
0:14:57 > 0:15:01She said before Christmas, "I'm not coming back."
0:15:01 > 0:15:04- That's the truth and we hear this rubbish!- Emlyn Richards.
0:15:04 > 0:15:10I think it's about time... I've lived here for 50 years...
0:15:10 > 0:15:15..when the Wylfa power station was built.
0:15:15 > 0:15:18And we're still playing around.
0:15:18 > 0:15:24We have a fantastic panel. I've never heard such answers.
0:15:24 > 0:15:26It's about time...
0:15:26 > 0:15:30It's about time we got somewhere.
0:15:30 > 0:15:33Germany has turned them down.
0:15:33 > 0:15:38Guto Bebb is shaking his head. That is the truth!
0:15:38 > 0:15:40Finish your sentence.
0:15:40 > 0:15:45Other countries... Japan, they've refused.
0:15:45 > 0:15:50it's time we reached a decision. We're caught between two ideas.
0:15:50 > 0:15:53People's health is at stake.
0:15:53 > 0:15:57Yes, we need to safeguard our young people today.
0:15:57 > 0:16:03- Let's keep them alive and healthy. - You can come back in on that.
0:16:03 > 0:16:07In the first place, I think the audience response shows...
0:16:07 > 0:16:10..what most people on Anglesey think regarding this matter.
0:16:10 > 0:16:15Secondly, I hope the gentleman is referring that other gentleman...
0:16:15 > 0:16:19..someone from Cemmaes who is worried about the language...
0:16:19 > 0:16:21and the future of young people in this
0:16:21 > 0:16:24They do not have comfortable jobs in the public sector...
0:16:24 > 0:16:27..and cannot afford to protest regularly.
0:16:27 > 0:16:31The truth is in my constituency, there are Welsh areas...
0:16:31 > 0:16:35..losing the younger generation and the opportunity for jobs...
0:16:35 > 0:16:39..and all we hear is this bunch wanting to turn down opportunities.
0:16:39 > 0:16:43Elfyn said he was with Dafydd Elis-Thomas on this matter.
0:16:43 > 0:16:48What we need is jobs and a chance to develop within those jobs.
0:16:48 > 0:16:51If Wylfa goes and it is not replaced, we don't just lose jobs...
0:16:51 > 0:16:55..on Anglesey, we lose those jobs at Trawsfynydd.
0:16:55 > 0:17:00It's shameful from people who claim to be worried about the language...
0:17:00 > 0:17:03..that someone defending the need for jobs in rural Wales...
0:17:03 > 0:17:06..is the voice of a British institution.
0:17:06 > 0:17:11I'd rather be that than the voice of the comfortable middle classes.
0:17:13 > 0:17:19We won't have a language or culture if we have 6,000 workers...
0:17:19 > 0:17:22..coming here from Europe and everywhere else.
0:17:22 > 0:17:26Where do the young people of Anglesey live today?
0:17:26 > 0:17:29They live in Guildford and in London and in Manchester.
0:17:29 > 0:17:32How many people attend your chapel these days?
0:17:32 > 0:17:37Not many, I'd guess. We're losing our young people.
0:17:37 > 0:17:41It's a disgrace we're not moving forward and discussing this.
0:17:41 > 0:17:44Thank you, Guto Bebb.
0:17:44 > 0:17:49I'm surprised that you politicians are blinded...
0:17:49 > 0:17:52..by these potential jobs.
0:17:52 > 0:17:56We know that most of these jobs are not jobs for local people.
0:17:56 > 0:18:01The first Wylfa proved that, as there was so much in migration.
0:18:01 > 0:18:06What makes you so certain they are not jobs for local people?
0:18:06 > 0:18:10We know there aren't that many unemployed on Anglesey.
0:18:10 > 0:18:16And there are far better ways and safer ways...
0:18:16 > 0:18:21..to create jobs. The politicians have known about the closure...
0:18:21 > 0:18:23..of Wylfa for years.
0:18:23 > 0:18:26There are 500 decommissioning jobs, in the first place.
0:18:26 > 0:18:32- There are other ways to create jobs. - Right, up to the back row.
0:18:32 > 0:18:35Let's get the microphone over to you.
0:18:35 > 0:18:38If we return to the original question...
0:18:38 > 0:18:43..recently Y Byd Ar Bedwar covered similar allegations...
0:18:43 > 0:18:46..to the question being asked tonight.
0:18:46 > 0:18:51Straightaway, Public Health Wales disassociated itself...
0:18:51 > 0:18:56..from that statement and said it is not correct...
0:18:56 > 0:19:00..for the reasons given by the two politicians here tonight.
0:19:00 > 0:19:06They are correct. These facts do not show the dangers...
0:19:06 > 0:19:10- But there is uncertainty.- You can say that about all industries.
0:19:10 > 0:19:15But if there is uncertainty, isn't that a reason to wait...
0:19:15 > 0:19:17..slow down and postpone?
0:19:17 > 0:19:21You know the situation regarding energy in Britain right now.
0:19:21 > 0:19:25We need power stations in the near future.
0:19:25 > 0:19:27We know what will happen otherwise.
0:19:27 > 0:19:32We have a representative here from Horizon, Richard Foxhall.
0:19:32 > 0:19:36What do you make of the contributions made here tonight?
0:19:36 > 0:19:41As a Welsh speaker, I have raised three sons...
0:19:41 > 0:19:45..and I don't want to see them move away from the area.
0:19:45 > 0:19:49We made a decision to bring them up in a Welsh speaking community.
0:19:49 > 0:19:53I live in a Communities First area and there is despair...
0:19:53 > 0:19:56..among young people regarding the future.
0:19:56 > 0:20:01As far as the company, we have already invested £80 million...
0:20:01 > 0:20:05..in the Anglesey apprenticeship scheme, along with Coleg Menai...
0:20:05 > 0:20:09..and other businesses to train local young people...
0:20:09 > 0:20:12..for the next generation of engineers.
0:20:12 > 0:20:16As far as the jobs, we make this clear...
0:20:16 > 0:20:20..we foresee that at our busiest, there will be 5,000 jobs.
0:20:20 > 0:20:23- How many will go to local people? - We cannot say yet.
0:20:23 > 0:20:27We haven't chosen the technology. There are two kinds.
0:20:27 > 0:20:32- We are in talks. - But will there be 5,000 coming in?
0:20:32 > 0:20:37No. What we are saying is times have changed since Wylfa was built.
0:20:37 > 0:20:42There is a greater emphasis on corporate responsibility.
0:20:42 > 0:20:46We are already in talks with Anglesey Council...
0:20:46 > 0:20:50..and officials from the Welsh Government...
0:20:50 > 0:20:55..and the local supply chain and we are determined...
0:20:55 > 0:20:58..to provide as many jobs as we can for local people.
0:20:58 > 0:21:03Once the place is built, there will be 800 permanent jobs...
0:21:03 > 0:21:07- ..to run the place for 60 years. - Thank you. Where were those hands?
0:21:07 > 0:21:13Well, I returned to Anglesey around 40 years ago.
0:21:13 > 0:21:19I did my degree at Bangor University.
0:21:19 > 0:21:22It has given me a good opportunity to raise my children...
0:21:22 > 0:21:24..in a Welsh speaking area.
0:21:24 > 0:21:29I have grandchildren on Anglesey and I hope they will have jobs.
0:21:29 > 0:21:32You have mentioned 6,000 people coming in.
0:21:32 > 0:21:36It is maybe half, and we are maybe talking about 5,000.
0:21:36 > 0:21:42What we must do on Anglesey is to make sure everyone on Anglesey...
0:21:42 > 0:21:45..who wants a job at Wylfa gets a job.
0:21:45 > 0:21:51Can I just finish? Coleg Menai has invested millions...
0:21:51 > 0:21:56..in educating young people so they have the resources to get a job.
0:21:56 > 0:21:59- I hope that they do. - Right. John Lee.
0:21:59 > 0:22:03I've been lucky and unlucky with cancer.
0:22:03 > 0:22:09I am 100% against it and the reason is...
0:22:09 > 0:22:13..I'm involved with Ysbyty Gwynedd Radio on a Tuesday night...
0:22:13 > 0:22:19..and I go to the Alaw Ward to visit the patients.
0:22:19 > 0:22:24Most of them are from Anglesey and the Lleyn Peninsula.
0:22:24 > 0:22:29And at the moment, in the paper, even in Amlwch...
0:22:29 > 0:22:33..you will see people spending money on children with cancer.
0:22:33 > 0:22:38Do you see a direct link between the power station and your situation?
0:22:38 > 0:22:43- I would give that a tick, yes. - That's your opinion.
0:22:43 > 0:22:46Let's hear from this corner. Yes.
0:22:46 > 0:22:52I just wanted to say following on from what that person said...
0:22:52 > 0:22:58..that Wylfa provided my husband with a job for over 40 years...
0:22:58 > 0:23:00..41 years, to be honest.
0:23:00 > 0:23:04We wouldn't have half the things we have without Wylfa.
0:23:04 > 0:23:08- The events in Fukushima don't worry you.- No.
0:23:08 > 0:23:12Imagine something like that happening here.
0:23:12 > 0:23:16there wouldn't be anyone living in Amlwch and Llangefni.
0:23:16 > 0:23:22No, but there was another factory in Amlwch that was also dangerous.
0:23:22 > 0:23:27- Doesn't it make you think again? - No, and the reason is...
0:23:27 > 0:23:31..things have happened in Russia and we've seen it come across the water.
0:23:31 > 0:23:35It doesn't matter where it is. If it blows up, it will affect us.
0:23:35 > 0:23:41We might as well have it here because we know the standards.
0:23:41 > 0:23:44I never thought I'd agree with Guto Bebb.
0:23:44 > 0:23:49- I'm 100% in agreement. - Right. What about you?
0:23:49 > 0:23:51Let's get the microphone over here.
0:23:51 > 0:23:55Everyone is talking about the young people and as one of them...
0:23:55 > 0:23:59..there are a number of us here tonight, we want jobs on Anglesey.
0:23:59 > 0:24:03Dylan's research may suggest there are problems arising from nuclear...
0:24:03 > 0:24:08..but there is other research and there will be more next year too.
0:24:08 > 0:24:11We need jobs and we need clean energy.
0:24:11 > 0:24:15Nuclear isn't entirely clean, but it is an option.
0:24:15 > 0:24:17Briefly, the final contribution.
0:24:17 > 0:24:23I noticed what was being said about certainty and uncertainty.
0:24:23 > 0:24:27He said recently that if there was an accident at Wylfa...
0:24:27 > 0:24:33..the wisest thing would be to move towards Wylfa.
0:24:33 > 0:24:37Right, and behind you. Hold on a minute.
0:24:37 > 0:24:42As someone who will lose their livelihood if we get Wylfa B...
0:24:44 > 0:24:49..I feel that Caerdegog has sustained my family...
0:24:49 > 0:24:52..for centuries, along with many other families.
0:24:52 > 0:24:59- Will Wylfa B sustain these families? - You can answer that.
0:24:59 > 0:25:04- Richard Foxhall.- Briefly, we have taken into consideration...
0:25:04 > 0:25:08..the concerns of Mr Jones' family and we have written to him.
0:25:08 > 0:25:11We're keen to sit down with him because we've returned...
0:25:11 > 0:25:15..to the original plan and there may be an option not to buy the land.
0:25:15 > 0:25:20- We want to discuss the options.- I don't want to be entirely scientific.
0:25:20 > 0:25:23But we might as well have a vote.
0:25:23 > 0:25:27Who wants to see a new power station at Wylfa?
0:25:27 > 0:25:29Hands up.
0:25:31 > 0:25:33Who is against?
0:25:34 > 0:25:38Well, it's pretty close. I can see two hands up over there!
0:25:39 > 0:25:43I think it may be slightly in favour, but not by much.
0:25:43 > 0:25:46Thank you and thank you to the panel for your contributions.
0:25:46 > 0:25:50Join us again in Amlwch after the break.
0:26:06 > 0:26:10Welcome back to this week's Pawb a'i Farn. We're in Amlwch.
0:26:10 > 0:26:14We're enjoying another lively debate.
0:26:14 > 0:26:18Let's move on to our second question. It comes from Brian Owen.
0:26:18 > 0:26:24Is it acceptable that Wales is likely to lose...
0:26:24 > 0:26:29..a quarter of our MPs and that the constituency of Anglesey...
0:26:29 > 0:26:31..will become part of the mainland?
0:26:31 > 0:26:36Brian asking if it is acceptable for Wales to lose a quarter of its MPs...
0:26:36 > 0:26:40..along with Anglesey becoming part of the mainland. Elfyn Llwyd?
0:26:40 > 0:26:42Not in my opinion.
0:26:42 > 0:26:46The process is not a process I would approve.
0:26:46 > 0:26:49Years ago, when the Borders Commission was looking...
0:26:49 > 0:26:53..at making changes, they looked at the community, the language...
0:26:53 > 0:26:58..in which way people are looking within a community.
0:26:58 > 0:27:01Anglesey is an unique community. It's an island.
0:27:01 > 0:27:05We argued that Anglesey needs to stand alone...
0:27:05 > 0:27:08..as the Scottish islands do.
0:27:08 > 0:27:13They are liberals and get to do so. They're with Guto's people.
0:27:13 > 0:27:16- So they're fine.- They're SNP. They're more like you.
0:27:16 > 0:27:20Most of these changes, it is the Liberals who have benefited...
0:27:20 > 0:27:24- ..in Scotland.- No, it's one SNP and one Liberal seat.
0:27:24 > 0:27:28- Let someone else speak. - Get your facts right.
0:27:28 > 0:27:31Give someone else a chance. You might learn something.
0:27:31 > 0:27:37- Well, stick to the facts.- And in the long term, I think the island...
0:27:37 > 0:27:42..should stand alone, but the reality is I don't think it will...
0:27:42 > 0:27:45..because I don't think the Commission will listen to anyone.
0:27:45 > 0:27:49They will have their figures and if you reach 75,000, that's it.
0:27:49 > 0:27:53For example, I represent Dwyfor Meirionnydd.
0:27:53 > 0:27:56They're talking about bringing in part of Powys...
0:27:56 > 0:28:00..Machynlleth and the Dyfi Valley and Caernarfon and the Conwy Valley.
0:28:00 > 0:28:05I think they are lovely areas but it will be 12,000 square miles.
0:28:05 > 0:28:09Let's be fair - why should someone like you or Guto...
0:28:09 > 0:28:13..represent possibly 40,000 people and other constituencies...
0:28:13 > 0:28:16..in England with 80-90,000?
0:28:16 > 0:28:21Quite simply, Dewi, it would have been considered in the past...
0:28:21 > 0:28:26..because when I go to a meeting, it takes me an hour and a half...
0:28:26 > 0:28:30..to travel there, another hour and a half to travel back...
0:28:30 > 0:28:33..and I know people representing areas in Cardiff, Liverpool...
0:28:33 > 0:28:37..Birmingham, London, they get through there in three minutes.
0:28:37 > 0:28:41They have a larger population, I have longer distances to travel.
0:28:41 > 0:28:45I know you're dying to contribute, Guto, but I'd like to speak...
0:28:45 > 0:28:47..to the other two first of all.
0:28:47 > 0:28:51As someone born and brought up in Bangor and who still lives there...
0:28:51 > 0:28:56..I have no opposition to my part of the country being linked...
0:28:56 > 0:29:01..with Anglesey, but I'm not sure that the people of Anglesey...
0:29:01 > 0:29:04..want us from the mainland.
0:29:05 > 0:29:08No? No! There we are.
0:29:08 > 0:29:12I thought as much. But I agree with Elfyn.
0:29:12 > 0:29:16There is something strange about this idea.
0:29:16 > 0:29:21Anglesey is a unit in itself, of course, as it is an island.
0:29:21 > 0:29:26And it has its community and its people.
0:29:26 > 0:29:33It seems to me that bureaucracy and hitting targets...
0:29:33 > 0:29:36..is taking over from commonsense.
0:29:36 > 0:29:39But what about this idea of losing 10 MPs?
0:29:39 > 0:29:45You could say that is an inevitable result of devolution.
0:29:45 > 0:29:49We need fewer representatives in London.
0:29:49 > 0:29:54Having fewer representatives in number doesn't worry me.
0:29:54 > 0:29:57What we need is high quality representatives...
0:29:57 > 0:30:00..to speak up for us, to represent us.
0:30:00 > 0:30:02Are we short of them?
0:30:02 > 0:30:07Well, most of us were furious...
0:30:07 > 0:30:11..when we realised what was going on regarding MPs' expenses.
0:30:11 > 0:30:14And that's when the people of Britain realised...
0:30:14 > 0:30:19- ..things weren't as they should be. - Geraint, thank you. Mair Edwards.
0:30:19 > 0:30:23Of all the constituencies, I think Anglesey is the tidiest...
0:30:23 > 0:30:27..and it's the one that should remain by itself...
0:30:27 > 0:30:31- ..and not join us.- But if it doesn't reach the right amount...?
0:30:31 > 0:30:37Well, it's still a constituency that is together...
0:30:37 > 0:30:41..and is far easier to administer in that way.
0:30:41 > 0:30:45I think it's a problem when an MP is going to have to work...
0:30:45 > 0:30:50..across a number of local authorities.
0:30:50 > 0:30:54That is going to make it complicated.
0:30:54 > 0:30:58And as far as some of the other constituencies...
0:30:58 > 0:31:02..they are so big, it wouldn't be possible to be democratic.
0:31:02 > 0:31:06I think Wales' situation is slightly different to the situation...
0:31:06 > 0:31:10- ..in more populated areas in England.- Brian, what do you think?
0:31:10 > 0:31:16The Menai is a natural border between Anglesey and the mainland.
0:31:16 > 0:31:19What's wrong with the people of Bangor?
0:31:19 > 0:31:23I don't think they want us any more than we want them!
0:31:25 > 0:31:31But it is so much easier to administer 1,500 people...
0:31:31 > 0:31:34..in a town than it is in a rural area.
0:31:34 > 0:31:41And I think the people will lose out, not the MPs.
0:31:41 > 0:31:44Anyone else to contribute on this from the audience?
0:31:44 > 0:31:47No, you're pretty quiet on this subject. Dylan Jones.
0:31:47 > 0:31:51I'm happy Anglesey has been red for ten years...
0:31:51 > 0:31:55- ..and I hope...- Are you worried it won't be if the borders change?
0:31:55 > 0:32:00- No. I'm sure we could keep Bangor too.- Confident words.
0:32:00 > 0:32:06- Yes?- Everyone is worried about in migration...
0:32:06 > 0:32:09..but maybe it would raise those numbers on Anglesey!
0:32:09 > 0:32:15We're back to the previous question. Guto, what about these changes?
0:32:15 > 0:32:18It would help if Elfyn was factually correct.
0:32:18 > 0:32:22- Where was he incorrect?- There are two seats safeguarded in Scotland.
0:32:22 > 0:32:25Shetland, with the Liberals, and Western Isles, the SNP.
0:32:25 > 0:32:29If Elfyn is suggesting the Conservative Government...
0:32:29 > 0:32:32..is making a decision to safeguard the SNP, then fine.
0:32:32 > 0:32:36It is a simple situation. I represent 46,000 people.
0:32:36 > 0:32:39Elfyn represents 45,000 people.
0:32:39 > 0:32:43In England, on average, MPs represent around 75,000 people.
0:32:43 > 0:32:47There are seats in the north of England that are bigger.
0:32:47 > 0:32:52Charles Kennedy's seat in Scotland is bigger than Belgium.
0:32:52 > 0:32:55I haven't heard complaints he is ineffective in his patch.
0:32:55 > 0:33:02The situation is all MPs will have a similar amount of people.
0:33:02 > 0:33:07Something around 75,000. And to be honest, we in Wales...
0:33:07 > 0:33:11..we also have AMs working in all these constituencies...
0:33:11 > 0:33:14..with 20 policy matters devolved.
0:33:14 > 0:33:19This change means we'll have the same amount of MPs per head...
0:33:19 > 0:33:23..as in England, but we will also have an Assembly...
0:33:23 > 0:33:27..which will legislate in 20 policy fields.
0:33:27 > 0:33:30I can't see a sensible argument against it.
0:33:30 > 0:33:34- Does it matter we'll lose ten? - I could be one of the ten.
0:33:34 > 0:33:40- My seat, Aberconwy, is likely to go. - So what does it matter?
0:33:40 > 0:33:44I think it's difficult to argue that Wales deserves...
0:33:44 > 0:33:49..more MPs per head, especially as we have an Assembly.
0:33:49 > 0:33:55We need a radical change. England needs its own parliament...
0:33:55 > 0:33:59..and then the other countries come together...
0:33:59 > 0:34:04..so there representation from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland
0:34:04 > 0:34:09That will then deal with the policies that affect everyone.
0:34:09 > 0:34:14Just two quick points. 7.5% cuts in England...
0:34:14 > 0:34:17- ..25% in Wales - that's not right. - That doesn't seem fair.
0:34:17 > 0:34:22Let me finish my point. The second point...
0:34:22 > 0:34:27..is we can cut the number of seats in London...
0:34:27 > 0:34:29..when we have a full parliament.
0:34:29 > 0:34:34The most important point is there was a speaker's conference...
0:34:34 > 0:34:37..during the '40s which said Wales should never have fewer...
0:34:37 > 0:34:40..than 38 seats. They're talking about 30.
0:34:40 > 0:34:45The situation has changed. We have had devolution.
0:34:45 > 0:34:48And we will need cuts further on down the line.
0:34:48 > 0:34:51We could have five now and five later.
0:34:51 > 0:34:57Elfyn's wrong on the speaker's conference too. It was 35.
0:34:57 > 0:35:02We've already seen Scotland cutting from 72 to 59.
0:35:02 > 0:35:05I would have agreed with Elfyn...
0:35:05 > 0:35:11..had we not voted in favour of further devolution in May.
0:35:11 > 0:35:15But we as a people have chosen to have a parliament in Cardiff...
0:35:15 > 0:35:18..which can legislate. I think this is entirely reasonable.
0:35:18 > 0:35:21There are elements of process in this.
0:35:21 > 0:35:25As the National Assembly in Cardiff is strengthened...
0:35:25 > 0:35:29..the need for so much representation in London...
0:35:29 > 0:35:32..is sure to diminish.
0:35:34 > 0:35:39And if the process means five now and maybe five later...
0:35:39 > 0:35:45..people like Elfyn and Guto are in a better place to decide...
0:35:45 > 0:35:48..on that process than someone like me.
0:35:48 > 0:35:54But I'm looking forward to the day, I hope I will see it...
0:35:54 > 0:36:00..when we do not have any MPs and it will all go to the Assembly.
0:36:06 > 0:36:10Right. I think we'll bring that topic to an end for now.
0:36:10 > 0:36:14We're going for a break before closing with two more questions.
0:36:14 > 0:36:16Join us again in Amlwch after the break.
0:36:30 > 0:36:35Welcome back. You're watching this week's Pawb a'i Farn.
0:36:35 > 0:36:39We're at Amlwch leisure centre. Let's go to our next question...
0:36:39 > 0:36:41..from Cerian Gruffydd.
0:36:41 > 0:36:47Doesn't the fate of Peacocks this week prove...
0:36:47 > 0:36:51..the Westminster Government's economic policy isn't working?
0:36:51 > 0:36:56Doesn't the fate of Peacocks prove the Westminster Government's...
0:36:56 > 0:37:02..economic policy is not working? Geraint Tudur, I'll begin with you.
0:37:02 > 0:37:07To be honest, I wasn't aware we needed to hear about Peacocks...
0:37:07 > 0:37:13..to know that the Government's economic policy doesn't work.
0:37:15 > 0:37:21It's obvious there are major problems.
0:37:21 > 0:37:24There is a debt that needs to be repaid.
0:37:24 > 0:37:28But it seems to me there are double standards.
0:37:28 > 0:37:31There are two pots of money at the Treasury.
0:37:31 > 0:37:37They can nine billion from one to host an Olympics for a fortnight.
0:37:37 > 0:37:43They can also fund the war in Afghanistan from one pot.
0:37:43 > 0:37:50When it comes to care for our people and our communities...
0:37:50 > 0:37:56..services, the NHS and so on, we're suddenly hit by poverty.
0:37:56 > 0:38:03And these double standards causes people to be angry.
0:38:04 > 0:38:08I think that Peacocks' problems stand outside...
0:38:08 > 0:38:13..of the Government's economic policy.
0:38:13 > 0:38:20We have a business culture and according to that culture...
0:38:20 > 0:38:25..a company must constantly expand and improve on the previous year.
0:38:25 > 0:38:29And do better than the year before that.
0:38:29 > 0:38:35These companies are urged to expand and to grow and increase...
0:38:35 > 0:38:39Isn't that what how we're supposed to succeed?
0:38:39 > 0:38:43That is the capitalism David Cameron is talking about.
0:38:43 > 0:38:48You see TV reports saying a company made 5% less profit this year.
0:38:48 > 0:38:53The suggestion is made that this is a sign of failure.
0:38:53 > 0:38:58The company may have still made £10 million in profit.
0:38:58 > 0:39:02- Thank you. Mair?- The sad thing about Peacocks' situation...
0:39:02 > 0:39:05..is that it is a profitable company.
0:39:05 > 0:39:12But the debt from trying to expand and the debts from the RBS bank...
0:39:12 > 0:39:16..and that they have called in the debt...
0:39:16 > 0:39:19..that has put them in this situation.
0:39:19 > 0:39:24That is the sad thing, that the bailout provided for the banks...
0:39:24 > 0:39:27..cannot be provided for a company like Peacocks.
0:39:27 > 0:39:32It will be a great loss for communities in south Wales...
0:39:32 > 0:39:36- ..especially at the distribution centres.- This is a regular complaint
0:39:36 > 0:39:40The Government can help the banks, but no-one else.
0:39:40 > 0:39:45- Yes...- And why can't the banks help a company like Peacocks?
0:39:45 > 0:39:47Yes. It's interesting.
0:39:47 > 0:39:50I've met with RBS over recent months...
0:39:50 > 0:39:54..at my office to try and persuade them to change their attitude.
0:39:54 > 0:39:58Regarding Peacocks, we have to be careful how we look at it.
0:39:58 > 0:40:00Peacocks is an example of failure...
0:40:00 > 0:40:03..under the model developed by Gordon Brown.
0:40:03 > 0:40:09They haven't failed because they have failed to grow...
0:40:09 > 0:40:13..the reason they've failed is they were bought by venture capitalists.
0:40:13 > 0:40:18They borrowed £240 million, which was affordable at the time...
0:40:18 > 0:40:20..but is maybe no longer affordable.
0:40:20 > 0:40:24The reason why they did that is Gordon Brown created a situation...
0:40:24 > 0:40:29..where as a company you were paying 18% tax.
0:40:29 > 0:40:33If you were cleaning the offices of such a company, you paid 20% tax.
0:40:33 > 0:40:39He also promoted a situation where lending companies money paid off.
0:40:39 > 0:40:43What is happening with Peacocks is that a business model...
0:40:43 > 0:40:46..that worked in 2006 has failed in 2012.
0:40:46 > 0:40:50It has nothing to do with any policy from the present Government.
0:40:50 > 0:40:53You don't think the banks should have offered...?
0:40:53 > 0:40:57As regards RBS, we need to consider what we want RBS to do.
0:40:57 > 0:41:02If we want the taxpayers' investment repaid...
0:41:02 > 0:41:05..we must decide if that is what we want.
0:41:05 > 0:41:10If we want RBS to be responsible for safeguarding failing businesses...
0:41:10 > 0:41:14- ..that is another matter.- And unemployment continues to rise.
0:41:14 > 0:41:18Unemployment is continuing to rise, but it is worse on the Continent.
0:41:18 > 0:41:22- That proves our policies are succeeding.- It's disgraceful...
0:41:22 > 0:41:25..RBS are pulling the plug on a company like Peacocks.
0:41:25 > 0:41:279,000 jobs down the drain.
0:41:27 > 0:41:32Regardless, venture capitalists were succeeding until now...
0:41:32 > 0:41:3727 million operating profits last year.
0:41:37 > 0:41:42- I said that.- Well, we agree on that. That's profit they made last year.
0:41:42 > 0:41:46They tried to restructure the debt and RBS said no.
0:41:46 > 0:41:50At the same time, they're offering a £1.2 million bonus...
0:41:50 > 0:41:54..to the chairman of RBS and we own 80% of the company.
0:41:54 > 0:41:59This government is happy because their City mates are making money.
0:41:59 > 0:42:04It doesn't matter about the jobs. Thatcher didn't care either!
0:42:04 > 0:42:089,000 people going as a result of this. Pulling the plug.
0:42:08 > 0:42:11- It's disgraceful. - What would you have done?
0:42:11 > 0:42:16The government owns 80% of the bank.
0:42:16 > 0:42:20Surely there's a minister somewhere who can have a word and say...
0:42:20 > 0:42:24"We're not happy with 9, 000 redundancies!"
0:42:24 > 0:42:28If Elfyn had listened to my answer, the simple answer is...
0:42:28 > 0:42:31..do we want the taxpayers' money repaid...
0:42:31 > 0:42:35..or do we want to use RBS as a bank that goes round saving businesses?
0:42:35 > 0:42:38That is a governmental decision.
0:42:38 > 0:42:43As regards the bonus, the Prime Minister has announced today...
0:42:43 > 0:42:46..that no-one at RBS will receive a bonus over £2,000.
0:42:46 > 0:42:49It's important that Elfyn sticks to the facts.
0:42:49 > 0:42:54He received £2,000 last year and it is going up this year.
0:42:54 > 0:42:59You're wrong there. Guto's talking about repaying the taxpayer...
0:42:59 > 0:43:04..as soon as possible, that reminds me of the Tories years ago...
0:43:04 > 0:43:08..redundancies - a price worth paying.
0:43:08 > 0:43:10they haven't changed at all.
0:43:10 > 0:43:14If we live in an economy where Elfyn thinks money grows on trees...
0:43:14 > 0:43:17..as Gordon Brown believed, fair enough.
0:43:17 > 0:43:21The reason we have problems on the high street is over half the debt...
0:43:21 > 0:43:24..of Europe's credit cards is in Britain.
0:43:24 > 0:43:27We based our economic development on debt.
0:43:27 > 0:43:31- If that's the way forward, fine. - So people are to blame?
0:43:31 > 0:43:35- We're too greedy.- We're just as much to blame as the government.
0:43:35 > 0:43:40- It's a greedy society.- Economic development was based on debt...
0:43:40 > 0:43:44..personal debt, business debt and governmental debt.
0:43:44 > 0:43:47Elfyn can try and give us a fair story...
0:43:47 > 0:43:51..but he's not living in the real world.
0:43:51 > 0:43:54The economy's on the floor, confidence is down...
0:43:54 > 0:43:59- ..people are not shopping. - They are repaying their debts.
0:43:59 > 0:44:03If you're going to talk about greed, that started in the '80s.
0:44:03 > 0:44:09That's when this feeling began that we had a right to everything.
0:44:09 > 0:44:14And to turn round now, Guto, and say it is our fault...
0:44:14 > 0:44:20..when society was urged to spend like crazy...
0:44:20 > 0:44:24But the crazy spending comes from the Labour years, doesn't it?
0:44:24 > 0:44:29- Labour were in power for 13 years. - But it started in the '80s.
0:44:29 > 0:44:32let's hear from Geraint.
0:44:32 > 0:44:37As Mair said, there was a change in atmosphere during the Thatcher era.
0:44:37 > 0:44:41People were being urged to live beyond their means.
0:44:41 > 0:44:48- And there was a culture of debt... - Have we become too greedy?
0:44:48 > 0:44:54Well, we live.. A lot of people live beyond their means.
0:44:54 > 0:44:57And that puts them in debt.
0:44:57 > 0:45:00You have a situation as we have with Peacocks...
0:45:00 > 0:45:07..where they have been urged to go with this debt...
0:45:07 > 0:45:10..and suddenly the rug is pulled from beneath them...
0:45:10 > 0:45:15- ..and 9,000 people lose their jobs. - Let's hear from the audience.
0:45:15 > 0:45:18Where were those hands? Yes, what about you?
0:45:18 > 0:45:22I'd say Peacocks is an example of the failure of capitalism...
0:45:22 > 0:45:25..when it is not regulated.
0:45:25 > 0:45:29Sometimes we need to step back and take a look at the problems.
0:45:29 > 0:45:34If we look at energy for example, what is the problem?
0:45:34 > 0:45:37Why do we need these huge companies for everything?
0:45:37 > 0:45:39Why can't we have local producers?
0:45:39 > 0:45:42There is plenty of work like that for young people.
0:45:42 > 0:45:47Insulating homes - local craftsmen could be doing that.
0:45:47 > 0:45:51We don't need to import skills from abroad.
0:45:51 > 0:45:54I think it's important we start at our feet.
0:45:54 > 0:45:57We'd need the world to be three times the size...
0:45:57 > 0:46:01..for everyone to live in the way we live in this country.
0:46:01 > 0:46:06- You asked the question.- Unemployment is once again the issue.
0:46:06 > 0:46:10We've talked about Wylfa B, but for those who are not interested...
0:46:10 > 0:46:13..in that industry, what else is on offer?
0:46:13 > 0:46:18At the moment, we're sat here... I'm lucky, I have a job...
0:46:18 > 0:46:21..but it's an hour and a half away in Wrexham.
0:46:21 > 0:46:23I travel there to make a living.
0:46:23 > 0:46:28Personally, I'd love to stay on the island and have a family...
0:46:28 > 0:46:32..but at the moment, there's no work. Where do I go?
0:46:32 > 0:46:36- Nothing's being offered. - Do you travel every day?
0:46:36 > 0:46:41No. I travel at least twice a week...
0:46:41 > 0:46:44..and I'm also there now and again too.
0:46:44 > 0:46:47Right, where were we, over here?
0:46:47 > 0:46:51What's the point of saving that money if we have to pay it out...
0:46:51 > 0:46:54..to people on the dole? That doesn't work.
0:46:54 > 0:46:59Going back to the '80s, what we're suffering was started by Thatcher.
0:46:59 > 0:47:02She wanted everyone to buy a house.
0:47:02 > 0:47:05You can't blame the events of 30 years ago.
0:47:05 > 0:47:08He's blaming Gordon Brown, so we'll blame Thatcher!
0:47:08 > 0:47:15I think that's where this feeling came from...
0:47:15 > 0:47:18..that we had a right to all kinds of things...
0:47:18 > 0:47:22..and we lost the roots of society.
0:47:22 > 0:47:24And that does go back 30 years.
0:47:24 > 0:47:28You look back and see things deteriorating back then.
0:47:28 > 0:47:32In a way, this RBS business shows the failure...
0:47:32 > 0:47:35..of the Government's economic policy.
0:47:35 > 0:47:38They're trying to cut back too quickly.
0:47:38 > 0:47:44RBS should consider unemployment as something to avoid.
0:47:44 > 0:47:48Postponing the repayment should be an option to maintain balance.
0:47:48 > 0:47:53The more you have unemployed, the more you pay out in benefit.
0:47:53 > 0:47:57Guto, are you awake worrying at night about the failure of this policy?
0:47:57 > 0:48:01No. If you look at the statistics, compared with the rest of Europe...
0:48:01 > 0:48:03..performance is extremely good.
0:48:03 > 0:48:07The situation is poor across Europe. Half our foreign market is European.
0:48:07 > 0:48:12But as regards Thatcherism, I know we're obsessed with her in Wales...
0:48:12 > 0:48:17..but throughout John Major's time, personal debt fell...
0:48:17 > 0:48:20..banking regulations were changed under Gordon Brown...
0:48:20 > 0:48:23..and personal debt grew. That is the truth.
0:48:23 > 0:48:27Right. Sorry, but that is the end of the programme.
0:48:27 > 0:48:31It's flown by. Thank you to the audience here in Amlwch...
0:48:31 > 0:48:35..and to the panel. Next week we're in Newcastle Emlyn.
0:48:35 > 0:48:38Until then, thank for watching and good night.