0:00:26 > 0:00:30On our panel this week in Ruthin - farmer and author Alun Elidir,
0:00:30 > 0:00:32Labour MP Susan Elan Jones,
0:00:32 > 0:00:36a member of the Assembly, the Liberal Democrat Aled Roberts,
0:00:36 > 0:00:39and the director of the Chartered Management Institute,
0:00:39 > 0:00:41Huw Hilditch-Roberts.
0:00:41 > 0:00:43Please give them a warm welcome.
0:00:43 > 0:00:45APPLAUSE
0:00:54 > 0:00:59Good evening and welcome to another edition of Pawb A'i Farn,
0:00:59 > 0:01:02and another chance on a Thursday night to put the world to rights.
0:01:02 > 0:01:07For the first programme in February, we've travelled to the north-west,
0:01:07 > 0:01:11where an audience of people from the Vale of Clwyd
0:01:11 > 0:01:13have joined us in the sports hall of Ruthin School,
0:01:13 > 0:01:16one of the oldest private schools in Britain.
0:01:16 > 0:01:20Our discussion tonight, on the other hand, is as public as it gets,
0:01:20 > 0:01:23and you're welcome to contribute via Twitter or e-mail.
0:01:23 > 0:01:26If you want to join the audience, by the way,
0:01:26 > 0:01:28our next two programmes are coming from Cardiff Bay,
0:01:28 > 0:01:31and the from Brangwyn Hall in Swansea,
0:01:31 > 0:01:34when we'll dedicate the whole hour to discuss the Welsh language,
0:01:34 > 0:01:39half a century after Saunders Lewis gave his famous lecture on its fate.
0:01:39 > 0:01:43Back to tonight, and our first question here in Ruthin
0:01:43 > 0:01:46comes from Jo Thomas in the back. Jo, what's your question, please?
0:01:46 > 0:01:48In many of our towns,
0:01:48 > 0:01:52the high street is deteriorating and losing businesses.
0:01:52 > 0:01:57Why aren't the politicians in Cardiff and London
0:01:57 > 0:02:00doing more to improve the situation?
0:02:00 > 0:02:04Jo's question - with some passion in her voice, as a business person in this town.
0:02:04 > 0:02:06In many of our towns,
0:02:06 > 0:02:09the high street is deteriorating and losing businesses.
0:02:09 > 0:02:12Why aren't the politicians in Cardiff and London
0:02:12 > 0:02:15trying to improve the situation?
0:02:15 > 0:02:18The two cohorts Susan and Aled represent.
0:02:18 > 0:02:20Aled, can I start with you?
0:02:20 > 0:02:22Well, there is an emergency.
0:02:22 > 0:02:24That's quite clear by now.
0:02:24 > 0:02:31I think the government in Cardiff has been quite slow to respond
0:02:31 > 0:02:33compared to the government in England.
0:02:33 > 0:02:37There was a reduction in business rates in England,
0:02:37 > 0:02:41and it took two or three months for the government in Cardiff,
0:02:41 > 0:02:47but to be fair to them, at the moment, they're conducting a review
0:02:47 > 0:02:49of the business rates system.
0:02:49 > 0:02:53A panel has been established, but it's not just a matter of -
0:02:53 > 0:02:59everyone's complaining about business rates, that's for certain, but there are greater problems.
0:02:59 > 0:03:02Shopping patterns are changing,
0:03:02 > 0:03:05the internet is creating more competition for small shops,
0:03:05 > 0:03:09we have problems in Wales with to do with how much...
0:03:09 > 0:03:15Well, there are problems with the internet in rural towns,
0:03:15 > 0:03:17but there is also pressure -
0:03:17 > 0:03:22a planning application has been made in Llangollen today, for example,
0:03:22 > 0:03:26where Tesco have said they want to build.
0:03:26 > 0:03:29There are similar plans in Llanrwst and towns like that.
0:03:29 > 0:03:33We as politicians have to respond, but I do accept your point.
0:03:33 > 0:03:35You had enough chance as leader of Wrexham Council
0:03:35 > 0:03:38before you were elected to the Assembly.
0:03:38 > 0:03:41Did you feel you were doing all you could have done?
0:03:41 > 0:03:43We were doing things, we were planning,
0:03:43 > 0:03:49we had free parking in the town centre to try to help things,
0:03:49 > 0:03:51but this new situation, you know -
0:03:51 > 0:03:55the shops aren't the same as they were 20 years ago.
0:03:55 > 0:03:58- All right.- We have to accept that, as well.
0:03:58 > 0:04:00Huw, as a businessman, to tell the truth, come on,
0:04:00 > 0:04:02what would you do in this situation?
0:04:02 > 0:04:05- Are things deteriorating? - Yes, they are.
0:04:05 > 0:04:10The town is so important to Wales. It's a part of life, for young people and the people of the town.
0:04:10 > 0:04:12And I think we have to look at where we are.
0:04:12 > 0:04:16Big businesses and small businesses are leaving the high streets.
0:04:16 > 0:04:20But I don't think taxes and parking are everything.
0:04:20 > 0:04:24- I think we have to look at... - So parking for free isn't...
0:04:24 > 0:04:27No, it's part of it, but it's not a big strategy.
0:04:27 > 0:04:30The big picture is, where there's..
0:04:30 > 0:04:33What we're trying to do in our towns, how we move ahead.
0:04:33 > 0:04:38A big problem I see is that we don't market our towns effectively enough.
0:04:38 > 0:04:41Ruthin, for example, has a fantastic place.
0:04:41 > 0:04:4490,000 come in to this craft centre each year,
0:04:44 > 0:04:49but they don't come into the town centre. And that's where the shoppers are...
0:04:49 > 0:04:54Who's to blame for that? Who's responsible for this marketing? Who should we blame? These people?
0:04:54 > 0:04:58No. It's the job of the people of the town to co-operate with the council,
0:04:58 > 0:05:01and it's also important for people in Westminster and Cardiff
0:05:01 > 0:05:06to work together to find a package that supports the local businesses to make things happen.
0:05:06 > 0:05:09- Aled, come back in.- Businesses also have a responsibility,
0:05:09 > 0:05:14because when we tried to do that in Wrexham, the businesses themselves weren't ready to,
0:05:14 > 0:05:18because their financial situation was quite... they were in difficulties,
0:05:18 > 0:05:22they didn't have the resources to put the money in.
0:05:22 > 0:05:26But they couldn't expect theunty council to do everything either.
0:05:26 > 0:05:30- These businesses have to do... - Stand up for themselves.- Yes.
0:05:30 > 0:05:32And that isn't happening.
0:05:32 > 0:05:34Well, not everywhere.
0:05:34 > 0:05:37Right, Jo, you own a business here in Ruthin, if I remember rightly.
0:05:37 > 0:05:42How about it? You don't do enough to stand on your own two feet, according to Aled Roberts.
0:05:42 > 0:05:44I'm a terrible person, aren't I(!)
0:05:44 > 0:05:51Fair play, the Assembly has helped us with taxes for two years now,
0:05:51 > 0:05:53and I only hope they're going to keep that going,
0:05:53 > 0:05:55because the recession is still here.
0:05:55 > 0:05:58I'm sorry, but this new government, it's still new in my mind, anyway,
0:05:58 > 0:06:03hasn't grasped things in the right way.
0:06:03 > 0:06:07I saw a big difference when they put VAT up, for instance.
0:06:07 > 0:06:12Who on earth thought of raising VAT?
0:06:12 > 0:06:17You know, you're telling people now, don't buy anything, keep your money,
0:06:17 > 0:06:20you're paying me, the government, not me personally.
0:06:20 > 0:06:24- That's been a blow for you, has it? Raising VAT.- When they raised VAT,
0:06:24 > 0:06:28customers were thinking it was going into my pocket.
0:06:28 > 0:06:31But the other thing that's... Oh...
0:06:31 > 0:06:36- We also need local government help. - Right.
0:06:36 > 0:06:39But fair play, they're all being squeezed as well.
0:06:39 > 0:06:42- But...- Yes.- The Assembly is trying to help,
0:06:42 > 0:06:45but I'm sure the London government could help more.
0:06:45 > 0:06:49Right. Thanks, Jo. You've given us a very lively picture.
0:06:49 > 0:06:51Susan, you come in.
0:06:51 > 0:06:54I agree with you, I think the problem is a very big one,
0:06:54 > 0:06:59and I think, as you said, we're not just talking about high streets.
0:06:59 > 0:07:03It's relevant to the macro-economic situation,
0:07:03 > 0:07:06and when you talk about the increase in VAT,
0:07:06 > 0:07:11I think the British Retail Consortium were talking about
0:07:11 > 0:07:17something like £3.5 billion missing because of the shops...
0:07:17 > 0:07:19- What about the VAT business? - Well, that's it.
0:07:19 > 0:07:24We had to do that because your government had made such a mess in terms of the debt.
0:07:24 > 0:07:28- Well, we can... If you think now about...- Is that true? - If you think...- Is it true?
0:07:28 > 0:07:32- I'll answer, if that's all right. - But I'm asking if that's true.
0:07:32 > 0:07:35- No.- We had to raise it because of the mess your government made.
0:07:35 > 0:07:38No... Can I answer the question, please.
0:07:38 > 0:07:42If you think about what's happening now with the new government,
0:07:42 > 0:07:47they'll have to borrow around £158 million more
0:07:47 > 0:07:52to do what they're doing, and what you get, the projections now,
0:07:52 > 0:07:55for how the economy is growing - the economy isn't growing.
0:07:55 > 0:07:59You go to the quarterly forecasts, it's like some kind of fiction,
0:07:59 > 0:08:02like going to the cinema to see a film.
0:08:02 > 0:08:05- A pound from every £4...- Yes, Aled.
0:08:05 > 0:08:10£1 out of every £4 being raised in this country has to go towards paying debt.
0:08:10 > 0:08:14Yes, but if you think about what your government... We're at it again.
0:08:14 > 0:08:18- What do you think the government... They said they wouldn't do this.- No, that's it.
0:08:18 > 0:08:24- People from Rhosllanerchrugog will be watching, and they don't want... - Come on, answer the question.
0:08:24 > 0:08:29- But if you look at what's happened with the VAT increase...- Right.
0:08:29 > 0:08:34You see that people don't have the money to spend,
0:08:34 > 0:08:38you see that the money isn't coming in, and as Jo says,
0:08:38 > 0:08:42you see things like the Assembly's Enterprise and Business Committee
0:08:42 > 0:08:45providing some ideas about parking costs and so on.
0:08:45 > 0:08:48There we go. Let's ask Alun. What do you think?
0:08:48 > 0:08:52- It's my fault.- It's your fault? - People like me.
0:08:52 > 0:08:57- Yes.- You're ready to confess, then. - I admit it! I was driving through here,
0:08:57 > 0:09:02and I saw on the outskirts of the town, Tesco. Who's allowed Tesco to come here? What's happened?
0:09:02 > 0:09:07Tesco has taken out a great deal of the variety of high street shops.
0:09:07 > 0:09:12It's undermined their ability to live,
0:09:12 > 0:09:16so the high street shops have to discover some kind of specialism,
0:09:16 > 0:09:18they have to be more creative.
0:09:18 > 0:09:21But then, ordinary blokes like me have to go there and support them.
0:09:21 > 0:09:26- Yes.- The local word I was hearing, it's key.
0:09:26 > 0:09:31Local people have to take the reins and manage things, devise new ways to promote themselves,
0:09:31 > 0:09:36and we have to remember that these shops have to live in the winter as well as the summer.
0:09:36 > 0:09:38We can all target tourists in our own way,
0:09:38 > 0:09:41and we're successful, farmers' markets and so on, but in winter,
0:09:41 > 0:09:44it's you out there who'll keep high street shops open,
0:09:44 > 0:09:45and don't forget that.
0:09:45 > 0:09:49Every time you go to Tesco and buy what you want, and maybe you buy something extra,
0:09:49 > 0:09:53remember that you can get the extra thing somewhere else,
0:09:53 > 0:09:58perhaps in the pharmacy, and flowers for your wife to take home, think a bit more responsibly.
0:09:58 > 0:10:00APPLAUSE
0:10:03 > 0:10:08- But people still go to Tesco. - I like ordinary people and I don't blame them, to tell the truth.
0:10:08 > 0:10:10- It's my fault.- Yes, exactly.
0:10:10 > 0:10:12That is, people go there all the same.
0:10:12 > 0:10:14- Where to?- Somewhere like Tesco.
0:10:14 > 0:10:17No, I almost never do. Certainly never to buy meat.
0:10:17 > 0:10:19DEWI LAUGHS
0:10:19 > 0:10:21Yes, Aled, you come back.
0:10:21 > 0:10:27Well, I accept myself that we all have a tendency, don't we, to go,
0:10:27 > 0:10:31we complain about losing shops, but in the end, we're the ones who go to Tesco and Asda.
0:10:31 > 0:10:35The produce is higher quality if we go to smaller specialist shops...
0:10:35 > 0:10:38Hasn't there been a serious expansion of things like that?
0:10:38 > 0:10:42These out-of-town developments, and this has all happened in the last 20 years.
0:10:42 > 0:10:48Yes, and the Assembly is currently doing a review of planning policy,
0:10:48 > 0:10:52because it's very difficult for any county council at the moment...
0:10:52 > 0:10:56- Very good.- ..because of the retail assessment done by the supermarkets,
0:10:56 > 0:10:59- it's very hard to refuse consent. - Alun.
0:10:59 > 0:11:03It is, and what Aled's saying, in a complicated way, very simply,
0:11:03 > 0:11:08in the end, Tesco's budget will beat a county council's budget to oppose planning permission.
0:11:08 > 0:11:12They're going to win in the end, and even the strongest county council can't oppose them.
0:11:12 > 0:11:16That's not right, and we need some kind of legislation
0:11:16 > 0:11:20- to control the power of the supermarkets. There's no doubt about it.- Yes.
0:11:20 > 0:11:23Let's hear from you, the people of Ruthin. Have you heard?
0:11:23 > 0:11:26It's your fault for not supporting these small shops. Yes, come in.
0:11:26 > 0:11:29They're all wrong. The trouble is that we're all too lazy.
0:11:29 > 0:11:33We'll park the car at Tesco, go in and out,
0:11:33 > 0:11:39why would you walk into town? It's so easy. It's the same as TV programmes these days.
0:11:39 > 0:11:43I see that some programmes are cut - look at Countryfile now,
0:11:43 > 0:11:46they go back and forth to the same place two or three times,
0:11:46 > 0:11:50they won't take one topic and finish it,
0:11:50 > 0:11:53they go on to something else and come back.
0:11:53 > 0:11:55It's our fault.
0:11:55 > 0:11:56Interesting. What do you think?
0:11:56 > 0:12:00We only get the high street we deserve, in a way.
0:12:00 > 0:12:04It's like everything else, newspapers and TV,
0:12:04 > 0:12:07we get what we deserve, that's what people do, as Alun said.
0:12:07 > 0:12:14We all go down to the supermarket, then we only deserve a high street,
0:12:14 > 0:12:19with all due respect to the lady who's trying to keep a shop in Ruthin, we all...
0:12:19 > 0:12:23- There are sympathetic noises behind you.- Dewi?- Yes?
0:12:23 > 0:12:28We also, of course, can't live without supermarkets. I admit that.
0:12:28 > 0:12:29That is, I as a farmer,
0:12:29 > 0:12:32I could create a specialist brand for my farm and sell it,
0:12:32 > 0:12:35but that big market, we have to have that big market as well,
0:12:35 > 0:12:39so I'm not claiming to have the answer to anything at all,
0:12:39 > 0:12:43but we need a balance in these markets.
0:12:43 > 0:12:44Yes, Huw?
0:12:44 > 0:12:47I just, the heart has gone out of town centres, in a way.
0:12:47 > 0:12:51My family has just taken a shop in Denbigh,
0:12:51 > 0:12:54and it's been a worthwhile experience for us
0:12:54 > 0:12:56to see this happening.
0:12:56 > 0:13:00We've had fantastic support from local people. I can't thank them enoughhat.
0:13:00 > 0:13:05But it is hard. The taxes we have to pay,
0:13:05 > 0:13:08and for a business that has just come in,
0:13:08 > 0:13:13no-one welcomed us and came to see how we were bringing it on. I think we have to co-operate.
0:13:13 > 0:13:17If we don't co-operate, the town's brand will die.
0:13:17 > 0:13:21Yes, some other voices? Eryl Williams, come in, as a county councillor.
0:13:21 > 0:13:25Should the councils be doing more, as Jo suggested earlier?
0:13:25 > 0:13:27I've lost £10 now because of you!
0:13:27 > 0:13:30- I'd bet them that I wouldn't speak. - DEWI LAUGHS
0:13:30 > 0:13:32I didn'tmuch choice, I'm afraid.
0:13:32 > 0:13:35But there won't be VAT on it, so you'll be fine.
0:13:35 > 0:13:40But the big thing is, no-one's mentioned, we've mentioned taxes,
0:13:40 > 0:13:43Tesco, the tax Tesco pays, it's nothing.
0:13:43 > 0:13:48It's nothing. Raising fair taxes, on the profits that they make,
0:13:48 > 0:13:51and the size of the shed, that site,
0:13:51 > 0:13:56that money could come back into Wales. It doesn't come back into Wales.
0:13:56 > 0:14:00The taxes they pay out are too small, compared with Jo's shop at the top of the square...
0:14:00 > 0:14:04They create lots of jobs, and people shop there every day in their hundreds.
0:14:04 > 0:14:07That's not... The taxes for the buildings they're in,
0:14:07 > 0:14:12they're nothing compared with the profit they make from all the things they sell.
0:14:12 > 0:14:17- Yes.- That's why fairness laws should be brought in, to ensure that the money comes back into the town,
0:14:17 > 0:14:19to be spent on improving the town.
0:14:19 > 0:14:22You don't accept Jo's point, then, that the council could do more.
0:14:22 > 0:14:25I do, I do. And Jo knowself that I'm 100% behind her,
0:14:25 > 0:14:30and I've brought in cheap parking for two years, 50p for two hours,
0:14:30 > 0:14:31- in Ruthin.- Right.
0:14:31 > 0:14:33- I stand with Jo. - Right, Gareth Thomas?
0:14:33 > 0:14:37What's happening on the high street reflects what's happening
0:14:37 > 0:14:39in the economylly.
0:14:39 > 0:14:44The recession is really squeezing in this part of Wales.
0:14:44 > 0:14:47We need to change the economic climate,
0:14:47 > 0:14:49we need growth in the economy,
0:14:49 > 0:14:51we need to put more money in people's pockets.
0:14:51 > 0:14:53But on the other hand, in the long term,
0:14:53 > 0:14:56I think we should have more sustainable economies
0:14:56 > 0:14:58- in our communities.- Right.
0:14:58 > 0:15:02- Perhaps...- Can I close with Jo, are you hopeful for Ruthin's high street?
0:15:02 > 0:15:03I have to be.
0:15:03 > 0:15:06- Yes.- That's the only way we can...
0:15:06 > 0:15:09And we have to move forward together,
0:15:09 > 0:15:12and hopefully the Assembly and Westminster will help us.
0:15:12 > 0:15:16There we are, a concise answer to close. ThankJo, and thank you panellists.
0:15:16 > 0:15:21Let's move on to our next question from Glain Vaughan Evans. Where are you? Right at the back.
0:15:21 > 0:15:26The future of Welsh-language broadcasting was a topic of discussion today
0:15:26 > 0:15:29in a meeting between the First Minster, Carwyn Jones,
0:15:29 > 0:15:31and the chairman of the BBC.
0:15:31 > 0:15:35How hopeful can we be after the announcement
0:15:35 > 0:15:37that Wedi 7's North Wales office will close soon?
0:15:37 > 0:15:40Thank you, Glain. Our second question tonight,
0:15:40 > 0:15:43the future of Welsh-language broadcasting was a topic of discussion today
0:15:43 > 0:15:45between Carwyn Jones and the BBC chairman.
0:15:45 > 0:15:49But can we be hopeful, having seen the announcement we saw this week,
0:15:49 > 0:15:51that Wedi 7's North Wales office will close?
0:15:51 > 0:15:55Thank you, Glain, for your question. I'll turn to Alun first, if I may,
0:15:55 > 0:15:58- as the broadcasterel tonight.- Thanks very much.
0:15:58 > 0:16:00We have to be hopeful,onest.
0:16:00 > 0:16:06As the new chiefutive, Ian Jones, suggests today in the Daily Post newspaper,
0:16:06 > 0:16:12he is very confident that the new arrangement between S4C and the BBC will work.
0:16:12 > 0:16:15It at least gives us some kind of certainty over five years.
0:16:15 > 0:16:18We have to remember,
0:16:18 > 0:16:20in relatingNorth Wales service Tinopolis had,
0:16:20 > 0:16:23yes, they're going to have to close and office,
0:16:23 > 0:16:25because Wedi 7 as a programme has ended.
0:16:25 > 0:16:28But new programmes will be made as partthe broadcasts
0:16:28 > 0:16:30from March 1st onwards.
0:16:30 > 0:16:34- But no office in North Wales, it seems.- No office in North Wales. - Is that a loss?
0:16:34 > 0:16:38It is a loss, but North Wales, and Caernarfon in particular,
0:16:38 > 0:16:43are keeping their service, luckily, with people like Cwmni Da,
0:16:43 > 0:16:49who have a positive influence on the local economy, the media, that's acknowledged.
0:16:49 > 0:16:51It is a shame that S4C
0:16:51 > 0:16:55will no longer have many companies anywhere else in Wales.
0:16:55 > 0:17:00Therefore it's hard to keep that variety of representation
0:17:00 > 0:17:04when you have the centralising in Cardiff in particular,
0:17:04 > 0:17:07but Tinopolis, I wish them the best.
0:17:07 > 0:17:09They're going to get a budget of £8 million now
0:17:09 > 0:17:12to provide new daytime and evening programmes,
0:17:12 > 0:17:14which sounds like a lot of money.
0:17:14 > 0:17:17- A very respectable sum. - It's not, I can assure you.
0:17:17 > 0:17:21For what it costs to make television programmes,
0:17:21 > 0:17:24they're doing it on very little, and we as the Ffermio crew...
0:17:24 > 0:17:29But in this age of scarce money, do we have to accept that there'll be cuts and programmes won't be as good?
0:17:29 > 0:17:34That's true, and I hope the programmes will keep their standard,
0:17:34 > 0:17:39and that's one of the most important things Ian Jones has said,
0:17:39 > 0:17:45that the audience will be the most important, and you have to take the responsibility.
0:17:44 > 0:17:49The audience has lots of responsibility to this new service,
0:17:49 > 0:17:54and let Ian Jones and the people down in Cardiff who have perhaps been insulated for years,
0:17:54 > 0:17:57to pay attention to what you want on your channel.
0:17:57 > 0:18:00Because this channel is important, not because it's entertaining,
0:18:00 > 0:18:04but it's central to our culture, and it's important that we persuade the BBC of that.
0:18:04 > 0:18:09- Is the channel attractive, or do people take their remote, "I'm sorry..."- Not at all.
0:18:09 > 0:18:14We want entertainment, we want information, we want a variety of programmes, we want documentaries,
0:18:14 > 0:18:18we need it as we're a big country in a small one.
0:18:18 > 0:18:21- Would another channel turn it all off?- You wouldn't get it in Welsh.
0:18:21 > 0:18:23- Susan. - Yes, thanks for your question.
0:18:23 > 0:18:27I think the situation's a very worrying one.
0:18:27 > 0:18:33I remember last year, when lots of us were campaigning for S4C,
0:18:33 > 0:18:37and I remember at one time, Cymdeithas yr Iaith campaigners
0:18:37 > 0:18:40were on top of the S4C building down in Cardiff,
0:18:40 > 0:18:43and I remember the banner they had - it said, "Wake up."
0:18:43 > 0:18:47And to be honest, I think sometimes that we haven't woken up
0:18:47 > 0:18:50to what's happened to broadcasting in Wales.
0:18:50 > 0:18:54If you look at what's happening to the budget,
0:18:54 > 0:18:59they've had a cut in the BBC budget, but S4C has had a much larger cut,
0:18:59 > 0:19:04and I think the situation, I still think some things have improved,
0:19:04 > 0:19:07but the situation is still very fragile for S4C,
0:19:07 > 0:19:11and I think a situations shows us just how fragile it is
0:19:11 > 0:19:14for broadcastingles, and to be honest,
0:19:14 > 0:19:18I believee to think that this is a very serious situation,
0:19:18 > 0:19:24- I hope things will improve...- Right.
0:19:24 > 0:19:28..but to be honest, we have to have news and programmes from North Wales and...
0:19:28 > 0:19:33There will be news contributions to ensure that, and Pawb A'i Farn will still come to North Wales,
0:19:33 > 0:19:35if that's any consolation.
0:19:35 > 0:19:37Glain, come in, if you will, with your opinion on S4C.
0:19:37 > 0:19:41I think there should be more variety of programmes on S4C,
0:19:41 > 0:19:46because moment there are too many of the same programmes
0:19:46 > 0:19:51being shown lots of times one after the other,
0:19:51 > 0:19:54and not so many things, especially for young people -
0:19:54 > 0:19:58there are no programmes for people in the age group from 13 to 18.
0:19:58 > 0:20:00How much S4C do you watch, Glain?
0:20:00 > 0:20:04- Not much.- How about your friend?
0:20:04 > 0:20:07I don't think there's enough variety of programmes
0:20:07 > 0:20:10to attract people to watch the channel.
0:20:10 > 0:20:14You need different kinds of programmes
0:20:14 > 0:20:21so the channel appeals to everyone not just have a few programmes.
0:20:21 > 0:20:24It is difficult. Let's have someone else.
0:20:24 > 0:20:28Let's have the microphone over there. It has to be everything to everyone.
0:20:28 > 0:20:31That's the problem. We have one Welsh channel
0:20:31 > 0:20:33and we're trying to please everyone.
0:20:33 > 0:20:36It's impossible. I agree, there are a lot of repeats.
0:20:36 > 0:20:39But it surprises me these television companies say
0:20:39 > 0:20:43they're going to keep standards but their budget's being cut by 20%.
0:20:43 > 0:20:48How can they do it? How will they maintain standards with 80%?
0:20:48 > 0:20:51That's the challenge. Doing things to the same standard with less money.
0:20:51 > 0:20:53How about you?
0:20:53 > 0:20:57I'm sad to hear that Tinopolis is closing its North Wales office.
0:20:57 > 0:21:01People who work there have their roots in North Wales.
0:21:01 > 0:21:05- We're going to miss that. - Do we need an office to do that?
0:21:05 > 0:21:09People from South Wales will come up then to report on the north.
0:21:09 > 0:21:12I think that's a mistake by Tinopolis.
0:21:12 > 0:21:16In front of you here, let's have the microphone.
0:21:19 > 0:21:23It is sad that Tinopolis is moving.
0:21:23 > 0:21:26But there has been a time
0:21:26 > 0:21:30when the majority of the work was to be had in the north.
0:21:30 > 0:21:32We need a balance.
0:21:32 > 0:21:37I don't think it's very important where the base is situated.
0:21:37 > 0:21:42What is important is the standard of programmes that will attract
0:21:42 > 0:21:48more people to watch them rather than having repeat after repeat.
0:21:48 > 0:21:53Although I enjoy the game, it's time to stop showing rugby on S4C.
0:21:53 > 0:21:54We need less of it.
0:21:56 > 0:21:58That is a controversial topic.
0:21:58 > 0:22:05Saturday night is a very boring evening unless they like sport.
0:22:05 > 0:22:10But they attract a lot of viewers. I think that's why S4C broadcasts them.
0:22:10 > 0:22:13- They have high viewing figures. Is that a reason?- No.
0:22:13 > 0:22:15That's not enough of a reason?
0:22:15 > 0:22:19But if they have high viewing figures, they're obviously popular.
0:22:19 > 0:22:22Yes, they attract viewers but look at the audiences
0:22:22 > 0:22:25that watch the matches compared with Ireland.
0:22:25 > 0:22:28When those clubs play you get 20,000 watching.
0:22:28 > 0:22:30The answer is, they stay at home and watch them on S4C.
0:22:30 > 0:22:35- That affects the clubs. - But someone here was applauding you.
0:22:35 > 0:22:39I should think that the majority of the audience
0:22:39 > 0:22:44that watches S4C on a Saturday evening are the older generation.
0:22:44 > 0:22:46The youngsters are out.
0:22:46 > 0:22:50All they get on a Saturday night is rugby and repeats.
0:22:50 > 0:22:54The audience don't want so much of it.
0:22:56 > 0:22:57How about the youngsters here?
0:22:57 > 0:23:03Have you got an opinion on S4C, pupils of Bryn Hyfryd?
0:23:03 > 0:23:06I think rugby targets a lot of young people.
0:23:06 > 0:23:11- I don't think you should get rid of it.- You'll watch the rugby?- Yes.
0:23:11 > 0:23:14I'll watch it too.
0:23:14 > 0:23:17- What about it?- No. - No rugby?- Not at all.
0:23:20 > 0:23:24I like watching rugby. I play it as well so...
0:23:24 > 0:23:27How about other programmes? Does anything interest you?
0:23:27 > 0:23:31I don't watch a lot of S4C to be honest.
0:23:31 > 0:23:36I agree with what Glain said about not enough variety.
0:23:36 > 0:23:38I agree with that.
0:23:38 > 0:23:47When I switch S4C on I don't see a lot I want to watch.
0:23:47 > 0:23:51- But if the rugby is on I will watch it.- How about Teulu on a Sunday?
0:23:57 > 0:23:59I'm not saying anything!
0:23:59 > 0:24:03Is the camera coming down one?!
0:24:03 > 0:24:08I won't put Gaynor in a difficult situation. Aled, come in on this.
0:24:08 > 0:24:11Alun Ffred Jones was calling for Welsh broadcasting to be devolved.
0:24:11 > 0:24:15How about moving the HQ to somewhere else?
0:24:15 > 0:24:18That's a question for every establishment in Wales.
0:24:18 > 0:24:21There is a tendency for every establishment in Wales
0:24:21 > 0:24:23to have its HQ in Cardiff.
0:24:23 > 0:24:27We have an opportunity now with Ian Jones.
0:24:27 > 0:24:31He's worked outside of Wales for many years
0:24:31 > 0:24:33and maybe he'll have some ideas.
0:24:33 > 0:24:39- I think it's stale.- What, S4C?- Yes.
0:24:39 > 0:24:42To be fair, the same complaints are made about the BBC
0:24:42 > 0:24:44and ITV on Saturday nights.
0:24:44 > 0:24:48I don't think that's just a problem for S4C.
0:24:48 > 0:24:52But S4C has to have a wide ranging appeal.
0:24:52 > 0:24:55It's quite interesting to hear what the young people
0:24:55 > 0:24:57are saying about sport.
0:24:57 > 0:25:00A lot of non-Welsh speakers watch programmes like Sgorio
0:25:00 > 0:25:02and the rugby.
0:25:02 > 0:25:05That's important to the channel as well.
0:25:05 > 0:25:09They have to appeal to more than the core audience of 600,000 people.
0:25:09 > 0:25:13- But it's important to keep that.- Oh, yes. It's important we keep them.
0:25:13 > 0:25:15You're not going to keep them
0:25:15 > 0:25:18with just Noson Llawen and Dechrau Canu Dechrau Canmol.
0:25:18 > 0:25:23Huw, you've been away for a time travelling. Do you watch it?
0:25:23 > 0:25:28I record Pobol y Cwm and I'm shocked at Denzil's death! It's important...
0:25:32 > 0:25:35I remember Ffalabalam, my children watch Cyw.
0:25:35 > 0:25:37It's all part of growing up.
0:25:37 > 0:25:40It's something that we have to make sure we keep them.
0:25:40 > 0:25:43We have an opportunity with Ian Jones.
0:25:43 > 0:25:47We have to look at the BBC and see what we can get from them
0:25:47 > 0:25:49to make our channel better.
0:25:49 > 0:25:52They do things that we can learn from
0:25:52 > 0:25:56and put into S4C to improve the standard of television in Wales.
0:25:56 > 0:26:03So you see this partnership with the BBC has something positive?
0:26:03 > 0:26:07The budget has been cut so we have to look at how to slice up the cake.
0:26:07 > 0:26:11If we can use the BBC we might as well use it.
0:26:11 > 0:26:13Alun.
0:26:13 > 0:26:15We shouldn't be too paranoid about it
0:26:15 > 0:26:20because there are people from the Orkneys who watch Ffermio.
0:26:20 > 0:26:24We have things people outside Wales want to watch
0:26:24 > 0:26:29so we have to look outside Wales and insist on attention.
0:26:29 > 0:26:32Wales is important to the world.
0:26:32 > 0:26:37We have to feel like that about our channel and think that way.
0:26:37 > 0:26:41With those words, we'll being this part of the programme to an end.
0:26:41 > 0:26:43Join us in Ruthin in a few minutes.
0:26:58 > 0:27:01Welcome back to this week's edition of Pawb a'i Farn
0:27:01 > 0:27:03which tonight comes from Ruthin.
0:27:03 > 0:27:07Let's move on to our third question which is asked by Clwyd Spencer.
0:27:07 > 0:27:10What's your question?
0:27:10 > 0:27:14Is the British Government right to insist that a single home
0:27:14 > 0:27:17shouldn't receive more than £26,000 in benefits?
0:27:17 > 0:27:20There we go, one of the biggest topics of the new year.
0:27:20 > 0:27:24Is it right to insist that a single home shouldn't receive
0:27:24 > 0:27:29more than £26,000 in benefits a year? Huw, let's start with you.
0:27:29 > 0:27:33Um, I don't think it's right.
0:27:33 > 0:27:36It's important to have a fair system that supports people
0:27:36 > 0:27:40who want to go back to work.
0:27:40 > 0:27:43It's not right that people who work every day receive less
0:27:43 > 0:27:48than people who sit at home who can work.
0:27:48 > 0:27:52It's important we tackle that immediately.
0:27:52 > 0:27:56Let's get this straight. You do think the government is right?
0:27:56 > 0:28:00No, No. I want a fair system without caps.
0:28:00 > 0:28:03Every individual should be looked at individually.
0:28:06 > 0:28:10So you're happy to see people earning more than £26,000 in benefits?
0:28:10 > 0:28:12It depends on their situation.
0:28:12 > 0:28:17If there's a fair system, and that's what I'm asking for,
0:28:17 > 0:28:23in force, that measures and can be transparent, that is fair, I think.
0:28:23 > 0:28:30- Susan?- Well, I think work has to pay and that is important.
0:28:30 > 0:28:36But if you heard the debate yesterday from Westminster,
0:28:36 > 0:28:40I think the most interesting debate
0:28:40 > 0:28:44was the one about homes and the housing benefits.
0:28:44 > 0:28:48To be honest with you, if you think about it,
0:28:48 > 0:28:53the majority of people who receive housing benefit in Britain work.
0:28:53 > 0:28:56We have to think more and more
0:28:56 > 0:29:00about what to do with the money.
0:29:00 > 0:29:04Not giving it to the people but to the homeowners.
0:29:04 > 0:29:08That's something we have to do something about.
0:29:08 > 0:29:14The new government had the opportunity to draw up
0:29:14 > 0:29:18further regulations but they didn't do that.
0:29:18 > 0:29:23Labour wanted it done, Plaid Cymru wanted it done,
0:29:23 > 0:29:27some of the Lib Dems wanted it done, but the government didn't listen.
0:29:27 > 0:29:32You were happy to vote against the £26,000 cap?
0:29:32 > 0:29:38We were thinking about the current housing benefit situation.
0:29:38 > 0:29:42That's why people are talking about it.
0:29:42 > 0:29:49The current rules state you have to have a house
0:29:49 > 0:29:55that is in the 30% band...
0:29:55 > 0:29:58I'm eager to keep this to the £26,000 cap.
0:29:58 > 0:30:01You're more than happy to go against that?
0:30:01 > 0:30:07No. What I was saying was about the housing.
0:30:07 > 0:30:12I don't want to be in the situation where 20,000 people in London
0:30:12 > 0:30:20are homeless and then who will have to pay for them? The county council?
0:30:20 > 0:30:25It's worse than that. They're all going to move to the poorest areas.
0:30:25 > 0:30:29Where are they? Somewhere similar to areas in north Wales.
0:30:29 > 0:30:33If this capping goes ahead, the relocation that's going to happen
0:30:33 > 0:30:37will mean ghettos of poor people in areas where they're all on benefit.
0:30:37 > 0:30:42Yes, there is a problem with the benefits system.
0:30:42 > 0:30:44If we believe what we read in the tabloids,
0:30:44 > 0:30:49they say 200 families costing £12 million.
0:30:49 > 0:30:53They're scare stories. They're the extremes.
0:30:53 > 0:30:57- Some are factually correct.- Some of those families have 13 children.
0:30:57 > 0:30:58Iain Duncan Smith reminds us
0:30:58 > 0:31:01many of them are Pakistanis and Bangladeshis.
0:31:01 > 0:31:05- Isn't there a racist element here? - You don't want to cap £26,000 either?
0:31:05 > 0:31:11- No.- Are you happy to see people receive more than that?
0:31:11 > 0:31:14I want the people to be able to live,
0:31:14 > 0:31:18I don't know what the equivalent wage is here, but it isn't £26,000.
0:31:18 > 0:31:24- That's the British average. - But isn't £26,000 a good wage?
0:31:24 > 0:31:30- We need to raise the minimum. This is keeping the poorest, poor.- Susan.
0:31:30 > 0:31:34I'm not against the idea of a cap but what I need is a fairer system.
0:31:34 > 0:31:40So you're not against the cap? You voted against it.
0:31:40 > 0:31:43I'm not against the idea of a cap. But we need a fairer system.
0:31:43 > 0:31:47If we get the system the government wants
0:31:47 > 0:31:51we'll have a lot of homeless people who work but are homeless.
0:31:51 > 0:31:53That's not fair at all.
0:31:53 > 0:31:58As Alun says, you can't have people living in Wales's rural areas
0:31:58 > 0:32:03and working in London. That's not real and won't work.
0:32:03 > 0:32:07Alun, I'll come back to you. Clwyd?
0:32:07 > 0:32:11That £26,000 sounds like a lot of money to me.
0:32:11 > 0:32:14I agree with those on the panel who say we need a fair system.
0:32:14 > 0:32:19To receive the £26,000 you have to be earning £35,000 with tax
0:32:19 > 0:32:25and everything. Jobs that pay £35,000 are....
0:32:25 > 0:32:28They mean to every home, so that's two wages.
0:32:28 > 0:32:33I'm trying to raise four children on less than that.
0:32:33 > 0:32:40- There is sense in everything. - How about you?
0:32:40 > 0:32:43- You were shaking your head. - I agree with Clwyd.
0:32:43 > 0:32:47The housing benefit problem started with the Tory government
0:32:47 > 0:32:51and then the Labour government did nothing about council houses.
0:32:51 > 0:32:54If we still had council houses we wouldn't have to house people
0:32:54 > 0:32:57in £2 million mansions in London.
0:32:57 > 0:33:01This whole attitude of 'what I deserve from the state'.
0:33:01 > 0:33:04Fine, give people £26,000, but as tax payers
0:33:04 > 0:33:07we have to expect something in return.
0:33:07 > 0:33:11They have to make sure their children go to school,
0:33:11 > 0:33:14that they are law abiding and everything else.
0:33:14 > 0:33:19£26,000 in Wales is more than enough for a family to live on.
0:33:19 > 0:33:24- Esmor Davies.- After Christmas we needed three or four men.
0:33:24 > 0:33:29Those men wouldn't start working for less than £340.
0:33:29 > 0:33:37That's the wages they wanted. They had that when they were out of work.
0:33:37 > 0:33:44That's wrong. That's £510 a week. There's no sense in it.
0:33:44 > 0:33:50I didn't pay £340 a week and they refused to come to work for us.
0:33:50 > 0:33:53There's high unemployment in this country and it's disgraceful
0:33:53 > 0:33:56that people are offered £26,000 for doing nothing.
0:33:56 > 0:34:00- Behind you.- The same as Esmor said.
0:34:00 > 0:34:04The country says they want people back to work.
0:34:04 > 0:34:06They want the economy going.
0:34:06 > 0:34:10If you're going to make it possible for a man, woman and three children
0:34:10 > 0:34:14to stay at home doing nothing, and give them £26,000 a year,
0:34:14 > 0:34:17I wouldn't get up in the morning.
0:34:17 > 0:34:20They won't get the money. That's the new system.
0:34:20 > 0:34:23But there are ways around these systems.
0:34:23 > 0:34:28- What will make you get up and work hard.- You're saying that's too much?
0:34:28 > 0:34:30- It's too much.- Huw Williams?
0:34:30 > 0:34:34- Where do you stand on this? - I think it's very unfair.
0:34:34 > 0:34:37We work seven days a week, me and the wife.
0:34:37 > 0:34:39To see figures like that...
0:34:39 > 0:34:43I've got four children and it's disgraceful they receive
0:34:43 > 0:34:44so much money.
0:34:44 > 0:34:48The system is wrong. The people aren't to blame, the system is.
0:34:48 > 0:34:52- The system needs to be sorted out. - It was the Labour Party system.
0:34:52 > 0:34:57- The Labour government has left us in this mess.- I don't think so...
0:34:57 > 0:34:59It has to be.
0:34:59 > 0:35:03If you go back to the housing benefit history,
0:35:03 > 0:35:07it's the Tory government in the 90s.
0:35:07 > 0:35:11But you agree that it was expanded when Labour were in power?
0:35:11 > 0:35:17What we need now is, just as the audience has said,
0:35:17 > 0:35:22many people work hard and that includes people in London
0:35:22 > 0:35:28- who have to have... - But this what the opinion polls say.
0:35:28 > 0:35:32People aren't happy that this is available.
0:35:32 > 0:35:36But I think that the most important thing now is to have
0:35:36 > 0:35:39a fairer system and to have more people in jobs.
0:35:39 > 0:35:42That's important.
0:35:42 > 0:35:44Aled, I am coming to you. Two in the back.
0:35:44 > 0:35:46Right, the microphone is there.
0:35:49 > 0:35:53Both of you. Don't look at each other!
0:35:55 > 0:36:00I don't know. It's more complicated than we can sort out tonight.
0:36:00 > 0:36:03It doesn't make sense to me that there
0:36:03 > 0:36:08isn't an incentive for some people to get up in the morning.
0:36:08 > 0:36:11- You have to have something to keep you going.- Beside you?
0:36:11 > 0:36:15I agree. If they're going to receive that much money
0:36:15 > 0:36:19they aren't going to get up in the morning.
0:36:19 > 0:36:22- There's no point in them doing it. - Aled Roberts.
0:36:22 > 0:36:25We all want a welfare state
0:36:25 > 0:36:28but we've lost control of the welfare system. That's the problem.
0:36:28 > 0:36:31We don't want to see poverty coming back
0:36:31 > 0:36:35but the welfare bill doubled under the Labour government.
0:36:35 > 0:36:38That's the problem we have
0:36:38 > 0:36:42and that's why the country is in such a state.
0:36:42 > 0:36:46There are fewer of us working and more on pensions.
0:36:46 > 0:36:51The system is sustainable. I agree.
0:36:51 > 0:36:56We must have a cap of some sort but there are problems
0:36:56 > 0:37:00with the plans being put forward in Parliament.
0:37:00 > 0:37:05But you are in favour of a cap? The only one on the panel, £26,000.
0:37:05 > 0:37:09That £26,000 has come about after people asked
0:37:09 > 0:37:14what the British average wage is.
0:37:14 > 0:37:17That average wage is £26,000.
0:37:17 > 0:37:20It's £35,000 really but you bring £26,000 home.
0:37:20 > 0:37:25I don't think it's fair that people have to work and get less money
0:37:25 > 0:37:28than those who work.
0:37:28 > 0:37:32We don't want poverty but we need to control the situation.
0:37:32 > 0:37:35But you're targeting the weakest people in communities.
0:37:35 > 0:37:37People who could be out on the street.
0:37:37 > 0:37:40There are two problems with this, with the bill
0:37:40 > 0:37:42that's currently in Parliament.
0:37:42 > 0:37:47One, we aren't dealing with large families.
0:37:47 > 0:37:52There are many large families where the children have been raised
0:37:52 > 0:37:55in the current system.
0:37:55 > 0:37:59Also, there's a problem in areas of high rent.
0:37:59 > 0:38:03I admit that if we look at the system as it is,
0:38:03 > 0:38:06there will be a problem with these high rent payments
0:38:06 > 0:38:10- in areas like London.- But on the whole, well done Iain Duncan Smith?
0:38:10 > 0:38:16I think that it's a good scheme but more work needs to be done.
0:38:16 > 0:38:18Let's get Huw first then you, Susan.
0:38:18 > 0:38:20We are raising children who don't want to work.
0:38:20 > 0:38:23That's not a good situation to be in.
0:38:23 > 0:38:25We need to change that attitude.
0:38:25 > 0:38:27That's why the system has to be completely fair,
0:38:27 > 0:38:31completely transparent so that people understand
0:38:31 > 0:38:32we want them to go out to work.
0:38:32 > 0:38:35When I left school, I used to work while in school
0:38:35 > 0:38:36because I wanted money.
0:38:36 > 0:38:40I speak to some children now and they don't want to work
0:38:40 > 0:38:44because their parents who are on this system, don't work,
0:38:44 > 0:38:47- they take advantage and don't go to work.- Susan?
0:38:47 > 0:38:51Aled says there is a problem in some of
0:38:51 > 0:38:55the most expensive areas when it comes to rent.
0:38:55 > 0:39:02His party didn't do that yesterday, apart from a few rebels.
0:39:02 > 0:39:04I'm a rebel.
0:39:04 > 0:39:08That's what you're saying tonight.
0:39:08 > 0:39:12When you talk about the welfare state, to be honest,
0:39:12 > 0:39:16when the Lib Dems talk about it they always mention the tax credits.
0:39:16 > 0:39:20What I think is, the tax credits have been important for us
0:39:20 > 0:39:25because tax credits have been important to those people who work.
0:39:25 > 0:39:30- Do you agree that something needs to be done immediately?- Yes.
0:39:30 > 0:39:34I agree. This culture of not working,
0:39:34 > 0:39:37the children never seeing their parents work,
0:39:37 > 0:39:39that is another matter.
0:39:39 > 0:39:42The question that will be asked is, where are the jobs?
0:39:47 > 0:39:50I think we'll leave it there with Alun's comments being applauded.
0:39:50 > 0:39:54Joins us for the third part of the programme in a few minutes.
0:40:08 > 0:40:12Welcome back. You're watching Pawb a'i Farn from Ruthin.
0:40:12 > 0:40:14In the third part of the programme,
0:40:14 > 0:40:18let's have our next question asked by Dewi Vaughan Jones.
0:40:18 > 0:40:22The Welsh Government's consultation period on organ donation
0:40:22 > 0:40:23finished this week.
0:40:23 > 0:40:29Does the panel agree that presumed consent is the right way forward?
0:40:29 > 0:40:31Thank you for your question.
0:40:31 > 0:40:35The consultation period is over,
0:40:35 > 0:40:41do you agree that presumed consent is the way forward?
0:40:41 > 0:40:43- Aled Roberts?- Yes.
0:40:47 > 0:40:53There we go. That's your most succinct answer for months, Aled!
0:40:53 > 0:40:56It has been a policy for us as a party since 2009.
0:40:56 > 0:40:58We had a discussion in our conference
0:40:58 > 0:41:02and it was in the manifesto I stood with in May.
0:41:02 > 0:41:07- We are very clear on the situation.- No doubts at all?
0:41:07 > 0:41:12A question has been raised which is, what's being called, a soft opt-out.
0:41:12 > 0:41:17If the family has the right to question after the death,
0:41:17 > 0:41:21one of the matters that needs to be discussed
0:41:21 > 0:41:25after the consultation is whether there is a soft opt-out.
0:41:25 > 0:41:29The original plan that the government put forward included that
0:41:29 > 0:41:36but the minister changed her mind during the time it was announced.
0:41:36 > 0:41:39So you're happy with what's being offered,
0:41:39 > 0:41:41depending on what comes after the consultation.
0:41:41 > 0:41:43We have to do something.
0:41:43 > 0:41:46In the end, too many people are on the transplant list.
0:41:47 > 0:41:50Can I turn to you, Dewi, you asked the question.
0:41:50 > 0:41:52Have you got a strong opinion on it?
0:41:52 > 0:41:55I think it should be the individual's right
0:41:55 > 0:41:58if they want to give their organs.
0:41:58 > 0:42:02I know there's a problem with not enough being donated
0:42:02 > 0:42:05but I think more information should be given to people.
0:42:05 > 0:42:08Going back to rugby, over the last few weeks
0:42:08 > 0:42:12they've been advertising the Six Nations championship
0:42:12 > 0:42:17and Mike Phillips' programme nearly after every other S4C programmes.
0:42:17 > 0:42:21If they gave half of the advertising time
0:42:21 > 0:42:25to give people information, allow people who have received organs
0:42:25 > 0:42:27to talk about their experiences,
0:42:27 > 0:42:30let doctors tell people how to get a card,
0:42:30 > 0:42:34I'm sure you'd get more on the donor list.
0:42:34 > 0:42:38But you don't want a change to the system where the government decides?
0:42:38 > 0:42:40You're not in favour of that?
0:42:40 > 0:42:44But the individual will have the same rights.
0:42:44 > 0:42:48The only thing you have to do, is say you don't want it to happen
0:42:48 > 0:42:52- if you don't want to. - What's wrong with that?
0:42:52 > 0:42:57What I say is, under the new system we don't own it.
0:42:57 > 0:43:00But if you feel so strongly about it you can tell them, I don't want to.
0:43:00 > 0:43:03I think there is a basic opinion for the individual's rights.
0:43:03 > 0:43:09There's too much of the big brother interfering? Your hand was up.
0:43:09 > 0:43:11I think that we have the right.
0:43:11 > 0:43:17All we need to do is sign that we're against it.
0:43:17 > 0:43:22That's how we show we don't want it to happen.
0:43:22 > 0:43:27- You're happy to see the change? - Yes.- Yes, you.
0:43:27 > 0:43:31I just told Rod during the advert break that Aled Roberts
0:43:31 > 0:43:35was talking sensibly and now I've just been disappointed!
0:43:35 > 0:43:40I disagree. I don't think that my body belongs to the state.
0:43:40 > 0:43:42I want to make the decision.
0:43:42 > 0:43:45Like Dewi said, I don't want to take it for granted
0:43:45 > 0:43:47that they own my body.
0:43:47 > 0:43:50We might as well be living in Russia.
0:43:50 > 0:43:56But Aled will tell you that organs are scarce and we need them.
0:43:56 > 0:44:00But in Wales, this is one of the best places in the world
0:44:00 > 0:44:05for donating organs. We just need better advertising.
0:44:05 > 0:44:09- We are among the highest in Europe as it is. How about you?- I agree.
0:44:09 > 0:44:12I think it should be a personal choice.
0:44:12 > 0:44:15Politicians interfere in our everyday lives as it is
0:44:15 > 0:44:18and I don't want them to interfere once we're dead.
0:44:18 > 0:44:20We should be given the choice.
0:44:23 > 0:44:26The enthusiasm we have in the current system
0:44:26 > 0:44:31should be given to a company to promote this choice.
0:44:31 > 0:44:35The type of scheme Dewi had in mind? You were shaking your head here.
0:44:35 > 0:44:38I'm sure there are many people like me who are more than happy
0:44:38 > 0:44:40to give their organs.
0:44:40 > 0:44:43They can take what they like, They'll be no good to me.
0:44:43 > 0:44:46If it's any use to anyone else, they're welcome to it.
0:44:46 > 0:44:48How about you?
0:44:48 > 0:44:52It would be interesting to find out how many people
0:44:52 > 0:44:54here are on the organ donation list.
0:44:55 > 0:45:00- Rod Williams?- May I disagree with the two brothers from Llandyrnog.
0:45:00 > 0:45:02I want to agree 100% with Aled.
0:45:02 > 0:45:05The government should have the right,
0:45:05 > 0:45:07they're no good to anyone else.
0:45:07 > 0:45:09Hywel Richards?
0:45:09 > 0:45:11I was looking at the humanitarian side of it.
0:45:11 > 0:45:14I don't see any sense in these waiting lists.
0:45:14 > 0:45:17I'm quite happy for anyone to have any of my organs.
0:45:17 > 0:45:20But saying that, I've been smoking cigars for 20 years.
0:45:21 > 0:45:24And your eyes look a bit odd too!
0:45:27 > 0:45:30- Alun Elidir, cone in on this. - I am totally in favour.
0:45:30 > 0:45:34I think it's a social responsibility for us to look out for each other.
0:45:34 > 0:45:38It seems that every policy up until now to try
0:45:38 > 0:45:41and be responsible by saying we're going to,
0:45:41 > 0:45:44I remember ticking the box when I had a new driver's licence.
0:45:44 > 0:45:47People know how I feel.
0:45:47 > 0:45:54What about this idea Dewi opposes, big brother watching.
0:45:54 > 0:45:57No, no, no. This is little brother because we're forward thinking.
0:45:57 > 0:46:00The Welsh Government has come up with this,
0:46:00 > 0:46:02it won't happen anywhere else.
0:46:02 > 0:46:05We should be glad that a devolved country has introduced this.
0:46:05 > 0:46:10What concerns me is that the NHS won't be able to cope with it.
0:46:10 > 0:46:14They'll lose an organ or given the wrong organ to the wrong person.
0:46:14 > 0:46:21- Doctors in Ceredigion don't have any faith...- You don't either! Susan.
0:46:21 > 0:46:25I've changed my mind on this.
0:46:25 > 0:46:30I read an article by Kidney Foundation Wales saying that
0:46:30 > 0:46:33one person in Wales dies every week
0:46:33 > 0:46:36because there isn't an organ available.
0:46:36 > 0:46:39If you think of it that way,
0:46:39 > 0:46:42every Thursday night we watch Pawb a'i Farn.
0:46:42 > 0:46:46If you think about it, when we watch Pawb a'i Farn next week
0:46:46 > 0:46:48someone will have died. That's not right.
0:46:48 > 0:46:54If you oppose it, we're right to have this soft opt-out.
0:46:54 > 0:46:57I think that is right.
0:46:57 > 0:47:00If you don't want to, if your family doesn't want to,
0:47:00 > 0:47:04that's how flexible the system will be.
0:47:04 > 0:47:07If you feel strongly about it, just say so.
0:47:07 > 0:47:12I don't want a situation where someone dies every week.
0:47:12 > 0:47:16It's not party political, I think it's a moral matter.
0:47:16 > 0:47:18- If you don't want to, you don't have to.- Huw.
0:47:18 > 0:47:23There are two sides to this and they need to be respected.
0:47:23 > 0:47:26I look at it as a father.
0:47:26 > 0:47:31If my child needs something I'd hope someone could help us.
0:47:31 > 0:47:34If you want to opt-out it's easy enough to do so.
0:47:34 > 0:47:38It's just ticking a box, that's all they're asking.
0:47:38 > 0:47:44If it gives something back to an individual's life,
0:47:44 > 0:47:46it's a good thing.
0:47:50 > 0:47:52Have you been convinced?
0:47:52 > 0:47:55People are under the impression I don't agree with organ donation
0:47:55 > 0:47:58but I do. Everyone should. That's not what I'm saying.
0:47:58 > 0:48:01I object to the way the organs are given.
0:48:01 > 0:48:04Everyone should be more than willing to give their organs.
0:48:04 > 0:48:05There is a way to do it.
0:48:05 > 0:48:08There we go, I'm afraid I'll have to end it there.
0:48:08 > 0:48:11We had two very strong arguments.
0:48:11 > 0:48:14Many thanks to the audience here in the Vale of Clwyd.
0:48:14 > 0:48:19It's lovely to have your company once again and to you too, panellists.
0:48:19 > 0:48:22Next week we'll be in Cardiff Bay in the Senedd building.
0:48:22 > 0:48:23Until then, goodbye.