0:00:01 > 0:00:03Bearing in mind the cuts to public spending
0:00:03 > 0:00:05and the fragile state of the economy,
0:00:05 > 0:00:12isn't it time the government tried to end the enormous bonus payments to bankers?
0:00:12 > 0:00:16You used to be a prominent player in the financial sector, if I may say so, Carol.
0:00:16 > 0:00:19How would you respond to that question?
0:00:19 > 0:00:24I would respond by saying there are two types of banks.
0:00:24 > 0:00:27One is the type has been bailed out by the government
0:00:27 > 0:00:30and we as individuals own those banks.
0:00:30 > 0:00:33We're talking about the Royal Bank of Scotland and Lloyds,
0:00:33 > 0:00:36they find themselves in that situation.
0:00:36 > 0:00:40The other banks haven't been bailed out by the government.
0:00:40 > 0:00:44I'm certain that banks that have been bailed out
0:00:44 > 0:00:48by the government shouldn't be receiving the same salaries
0:00:48 > 0:00:53that the private sector can offer to these people.
0:00:53 > 0:00:59I think the other point is that bankers' bonuses haven't come down yet.
0:00:59 > 0:01:06They've started coming down but they haven't come down enough to reflect our economic situation today.
0:01:06 > 0:01:08When 2008 happened,
0:01:08 > 0:01:13I remember saying at the time that we faced a difficult 10 years.
0:01:13 > 0:01:17An extremely difficult 10 years to pay back the debt.
0:01:17 > 0:01:18Three years into those 10 years,
0:01:18 > 0:01:21I think we face another 10 years of it.
0:01:21 > 0:01:23- It's as bad as that? - It's as bad as that.
0:01:23 > 0:01:26That's a downbeat start to the programme.
0:01:26 > 0:01:32The truth is that for the banks that are not government owned,
0:01:32 > 0:01:35I think the payments will come down and the market will see sense.
0:01:35 > 0:01:40Forgive me for interrupting but am I right in understanding that
0:01:40 > 0:01:43if that bank belongs to the taxpayers, RBS and Lloyds,
0:01:43 > 0:01:45that there should be no bonus payments?
0:01:45 > 0:01:50But you're happy to see the other banks handing out these enormous payments?
0:01:50 > 0:01:53The truth is they won't be getting them.
0:01:53 > 0:01:57I was at an event in London last night and the mood was muted,
0:01:57 > 0:01:59some people had lost their jobs.
0:01:59 > 0:02:03The truth is that the banking sector is making cutbacks.
0:02:03 > 0:02:06Many people my age have lost their jobs
0:02:06 > 0:02:08and they're unlikely to get another job.
0:02:08 > 0:02:11But in principle, it's fine for them to receive these payments?
0:02:11 > 0:02:16What's his name? Diamond who runs Barclay's, it's fine for him to get three or four million?
0:02:16 > 0:02:18Wait a moment.
0:02:18 > 0:02:24I am trying to make the argument that the market is on top of the situation.
0:02:24 > 0:02:27There aren't many jobs out there.
0:02:27 > 0:02:30The argument that's being posited is that we need to pay a fortune
0:02:30 > 0:02:33to Stephen Hester because to get the best people,
0:02:33 > 0:02:35we need to pay a premium.
0:02:35 > 0:02:37Is that true?
0:02:37 > 0:02:40That has been the case but I think things have changed.
0:02:40 > 0:02:44The government has the right to set the salary
0:02:44 > 0:02:47of employees of publicly owned banks.
0:02:47 > 0:02:49Thank you, Carol.
0:02:49 > 0:02:51Bethan Jenkins?
0:02:51 > 0:02:56I think it's totally daft that people are getting such large bonuses in the City.
0:02:56 > 0:02:59Do nurses get bonuses for saving lives?
0:03:00 > 0:03:04Do teachers get bonuses for teaching effectively? No.
0:03:04 > 0:03:07We need to get to grips with this situation
0:03:07 > 0:03:12and it's hypocritical that Labour is criticising the Tories for the process,
0:03:12 > 0:03:16because they set the system in place in the first place.
0:03:16 > 0:03:19We need to put a stop to the City culture.
0:03:19 > 0:03:22But these are the people bringing in big money to the country,
0:03:22 > 0:03:25a million here and there won't make much of a difference.
0:03:25 > 0:03:31I tell you what, the people who get these bonuses in the City
0:03:31 > 0:03:35from banks that haven't been bailed out by the government pay a lot of tax.
0:03:35 > 0:03:38And in this country we collect taxes, and the City of London,
0:03:38 > 0:03:41and we need to be careful...
0:03:41 > 0:03:46- They contribute to the economy, Bethan, and deserve the money.- No. - I'm not saying that.
0:03:46 > 0:03:51People in my region, people in this city are losing their jobs.
0:03:51 > 0:03:53Take Peacocks as an example.
0:03:53 > 0:03:57What right do these people have to insist on millions of pounds
0:03:57 > 0:04:00more than thousands of people who work hard every day?
0:04:00 > 0:04:03Felix Aubel, as a Conservative, how would you respond to that?
0:04:03 > 0:04:06It's all very well for Bethan to play to the gallery.
0:04:06 > 0:04:11- It sounds good but economically... - That's unfair, it's her opinion!
0:04:11 > 0:04:18The truth is if the bankers succeed in making profit for the company,
0:04:18 > 0:04:22they deserve to be rewarded.
0:04:22 > 0:04:26What I do object to is the fact that some of these bankers
0:04:26 > 0:04:28have received bonuses
0:04:28 > 0:04:32that their record at the bank simply doesn't justify.
0:04:32 > 0:04:35Reward success and punish failure.
0:04:35 > 0:04:38It was the attitude in the old industries
0:04:38 > 0:04:41that were nationalised in the 1970s.
0:04:41 > 0:04:45I remember Sir Monty Finniston, the head of British Steel, saying,
0:04:45 > 0:04:51"I'm pretty happy because the steel industry has only lost £300 million this year."
0:04:51 > 0:04:55That's the same ethos that some of these bankers have.
0:04:55 > 0:04:59They haven't succeed so they don't deserve the bonus.
0:04:59 > 0:05:01If they succeed, they deserve it.
0:05:01 > 0:05:05- How do we measure success?- If they increase the company's profit.
0:05:05 > 0:05:10And if that happens, they deserve a little million here and there?
0:05:10 > 0:05:14At the end of the day, you need to offer people incentives
0:05:14 > 0:05:18or they will move to another country to make money.
0:05:18 > 0:05:25- Is that true?- This is public money, especially with RBS.
0:05:25 > 0:05:27This is government money, public money.
0:05:27 > 0:05:31- So no, they shouldn't get those bonuses.- That's the difference.
0:05:31 > 0:05:35In the banks that have been bailed out like RBS,
0:05:35 > 0:05:38the government should set strict guidelines
0:05:38 > 0:05:43and it's Gordon Brown's fault that when he helped some of these banks,
0:05:43 > 0:05:45he didn't set strict enough guidelines
0:05:45 > 0:05:48like the French government did.
0:05:48 > 0:05:51In the private banks, I can't see how the government
0:05:51 > 0:05:54can interfere but it's daft to award big bonuses to people
0:05:54 > 0:05:58who haven't made profit for the bank.
0:05:58 > 0:06:01I must ask you Carol, would these people leave Britain
0:06:01 > 0:06:04if they didn't get these big payments?
0:06:04 > 0:06:07- No, there's nowhere for them to go. - So that's a false argument.
0:06:07 > 0:06:11People should realise that there's a lot of nonsense about Frankfurt
0:06:11 > 0:06:13- and these other places. - America?
0:06:13 > 0:06:15New York is another matter completely
0:06:15 > 0:06:19but it isn't at the centre of the world.
0:06:19 > 0:06:23It's morning here when the sun goes down in the far east.
0:06:23 > 0:06:26We're up and working when New York is opening up.
0:06:26 > 0:06:28We're in between, here.
0:06:28 > 0:06:33- They won't go anywhere and there's nowhere for them to go.- Gareth Huws.
0:06:33 > 0:06:37We're looking at this in a skewed way.
0:06:37 > 0:06:40You can't get rid of someone's bonus.
0:06:40 > 0:06:43That's not what's wrong in this country.
0:06:43 > 0:06:47What's wrong is that we're not taxing people effectively enough.
0:06:47 > 0:06:52Income tax hasn't gone up in years. There's no tax on wealth.
0:06:52 > 0:06:55There isn't a tax on mansions.
0:06:55 > 0:06:58You could change the focus altogether.
0:06:58 > 0:07:00The question was about cuts.
0:07:00 > 0:07:03That's all people are talking about is cuts.
0:07:03 > 0:07:06Cutting down on public spending.
0:07:06 > 0:07:11Nobody is talking about raising tax in order to pay off the debt.
0:07:11 > 0:07:13That's what we should do.
0:07:13 > 0:07:16And that's where Felix's party is lacking,
0:07:16 > 0:07:20they've only got one tactic and that's to cut, cut, cut.
0:07:20 > 0:07:21Do you want to go back to the time
0:07:21 > 0:07:24when Denis Healey was chancellor of the exchequer
0:07:24 > 0:07:28and people on the highest incomes saw 90% of their incomes
0:07:28 > 0:07:32go and tax and what you got was a brain drain.
0:07:32 > 0:07:36People left the country and you lived in a system where
0:07:36 > 0:07:41industries had been nationalised and the economy was running at a loss.
0:07:41 > 0:07:44You can't ignore profit and the only way you can maintain profit
0:07:44 > 0:07:47is to incentivize and keep taxes low.
0:07:47 > 0:07:53Every country in Europe and America is trying to cut taxation.
0:07:53 > 0:07:57- Respond, Gareth.- We've had low taxes over the last 10 years.
0:07:57 > 0:08:01Tell that to these people! Tell them that taxes are low.
0:08:01 > 0:08:05We've had low taxes over the last 10 years and what's the situation?
0:08:05 > 0:08:08The economy is stagnant.
0:08:08 > 0:08:12Tell that to people who are struggling to hold things together.
0:08:12 > 0:08:16People are paying too much in taxes, rather than not enough.
0:08:16 > 0:08:19We will return to the panel. Luned, you asked the question.
0:08:19 > 0:08:22- What do you think?- I think there are two things.
0:08:22 > 0:08:27The panel has split banks into those which have been bailed out
0:08:27 > 0:08:32but they aren't the only ones to blame for the financial mess
0:08:32 > 0:08:34we're in at the moment.
0:08:34 > 0:08:38It's the responsibility of the financial sector in general
0:08:38 > 0:08:41to make sure that debt and the damage done to society
0:08:41 > 0:08:45and the cuts we've had to make as a result are all paid back.
0:08:45 > 0:08:50One way of doing that, the best way is as Gareth said, taxation.
0:08:50 > 0:08:53But we shouldn't just tax the people.
0:08:53 > 0:08:57One tax which is really popular and the panel hasn't mentioned,
0:08:57 > 0:09:02which is supported by ordinary people across the country, is the Robin Hood tax.
0:09:02 > 0:09:07It is a very small 0.5% tax on those financial transactions
0:09:07 > 0:09:10between bankers at the highest level.
0:09:10 > 0:09:12It could raise billions worldwide
0:09:12 > 0:09:16And solve problems of poverty in this country and abroad.
0:09:16 > 0:09:21Let's ask that to the only panel member with experience of banking. Carol, the Robin Hood tax?
0:09:21 > 0:09:24No, not at all.
0:09:24 > 0:09:27But as Luned said, it's only small. A very small thing.
0:09:27 > 0:09:29You as individuals will be paying for it
0:09:29 > 0:09:32through your pensions and insurance, for instance.
0:09:32 > 0:09:36People think that this business has nothing to do with them.
0:09:36 > 0:09:39Who do you think is taking care of your pension?
0:09:39 > 0:09:44How do you think interest is added to your pensions in the first place?
0:09:44 > 0:09:47That cost will be passed on to the individual.
0:09:47 > 0:09:49Do you want to respond, Luned?
0:09:49 > 0:09:52But it's ironic that this week the TUC has come out and said,
0:09:52 > 0:09:55because Europe, apart from Britain and Czechoslovakia,
0:09:55 > 0:09:57are going to go ahead and do it.
0:09:57 > 0:10:01In the next six weeks, it's quite possible it will go ahead.
0:10:01 > 0:10:05Now, because what people in this country have decided,
0:10:05 > 0:10:09the money will go to the eurozone to help banks there and won't come to us in this country.
0:10:09 > 0:10:13Good luck to them. Their businesses aren't successful at all.
0:10:13 > 0:10:16And look at the European countries.
0:10:16 > 0:10:19Do you want to be like Greece, Portugal or Spain?
0:10:19 > 0:10:22It will come in and our money will go to rescue Europe
0:10:22 > 0:10:25- and we won't see any of it. - No, no, no.
0:10:25 > 0:10:28It's not a great situation is it, Felix?
0:10:28 > 0:10:31It's better than European countries and thank God we're not in the euro
0:10:31 > 0:10:33and we have our own currency.
0:10:33 > 0:10:36Over to you in the back row.
0:10:36 > 0:10:39The panel has been talking about cuts and taxes
0:10:39 > 0:10:42but one of the best ways of moving the economy forward
0:10:42 > 0:10:45is to make sure there's more money flowing through the economy.
0:10:45 > 0:10:50There's a responsibility on government owned banks,
0:10:50 > 0:10:52owned by the taxpayer,
0:10:52 > 0:10:55to lend to small and local businesses
0:10:55 > 0:10:57to make sure they can expand their businesses.
0:10:57 > 0:11:02You see more and more people in Wales choosing to spend their money locally.
0:11:02 > 0:11:06In Canton, where I live, people are shopping locally because it's cheaper.
0:11:06 > 0:11:09Why can't we support these businesses so they can expand,
0:11:09 > 0:11:13create jobs so that there's more money flowing through the economy?
0:11:13 > 0:11:16It's simple and I'm disappointed nobody's raised the point.
0:11:16 > 0:11:19You'll get a chance to respond to that in a moment. Mark Evans.
0:11:19 > 0:11:23We must question the moral implications of this wealth.
0:11:23 > 0:11:25I think we need a wider discussion.
0:11:25 > 0:11:30The audience has practically attacked Gareth for his suggestions.
0:11:30 > 0:11:35We need an incentive, was Felix's suggestion.
0:11:35 > 0:11:37You can collect taxes without doing that
0:11:37 > 0:11:40because you can tax the bonus funds themselves.
0:11:40 > 0:11:42- A small tax on them would raise billions.- OK.
0:11:42 > 0:11:45Kenneth, in the middle row.
0:11:45 > 0:11:47If I can respond to Dr Felix Aubel's comment
0:11:47 > 0:11:49that people need an incentive.
0:11:49 > 0:11:53Ordinary workers aren't offered an incentive
0:11:53 > 0:11:55at the end of the year for doing a good job.
0:11:55 > 0:11:58Ordinary workers don't bring millions into the country.
0:11:58 > 0:12:01That's true but it's the bankers' jobs
0:12:01 > 0:12:05to sort out the banks and to operate the banks
0:12:05 > 0:12:07and if they do that well, they are paid.
0:12:07 > 0:12:11And they get enough money for doing that.
0:12:11 > 0:12:13And you, in front of Kenneth.
0:12:13 > 0:12:16We heard about increasing lending to small companies
0:12:16 > 0:12:19but wasn't it too much lending
0:12:19 > 0:12:22that got us into trouble in the first place?
0:12:22 > 0:12:24A fair point.
0:12:24 > 0:12:26Another one over here.
0:12:26 > 0:12:29I don't understand how it's fair that we have an economy
0:12:29 > 0:12:31that depends on the wealthy,
0:12:31 > 0:12:35with people getting millions of pounds
0:12:35 > 0:12:39while there are people up the street in the valleys
0:12:39 > 0:12:42who can't afford to put food on the table?
0:12:42 > 0:12:48Why must we depend on a system which depends on giving millions of pounds
0:12:48 > 0:12:51to bankers while millions of people are unemployed?
0:12:51 > 0:12:54You mean, why is there such a wealth gap?
0:12:54 > 0:12:56In agreement with Gareth Huws on higher taxes?
0:12:56 > 0:12:59Yes, and don't cut benefits.
0:12:59 > 0:13:02What we're doing as a society is totally stupid.
0:13:02 > 0:13:06We're cutting back on the benefits ordinary people get.
0:13:06 > 0:13:11They are people who would spend, not save, their money.
0:13:11 > 0:13:15When people spend money, what happens?
0:13:15 > 0:13:17The economy benefits.
0:13:17 > 0:13:19That's what we're doing wrong.
0:13:19 > 0:13:24We're being stupid by cutting back and not inflating the economy.
0:13:24 > 0:13:26Carol, will you respond to the point
0:13:26 > 0:13:28that not even the publicly owned banks
0:13:28 > 0:13:31are lending enough to small businesses?
0:13:31 > 0:13:33That's true,
0:13:33 > 0:13:37but many people just don't want to take risks at the moment.
0:13:37 > 0:13:40I was at an event in London recently
0:13:40 > 0:13:45and a chair of one of the big banks was talking.
0:13:45 > 0:13:49He said the problem is that people don't want to innovate at the moment
0:13:49 > 0:13:54and small businesses must innovate.
0:13:54 > 0:13:56Yes, come back in.
0:13:56 > 0:13:59You're right to say that people are afraid to innovate
0:13:59 > 0:14:03because the interest rates linked to the loans are so high
0:14:03 > 0:14:07that the incentive isn't there for people to innovate.
0:14:07 > 0:14:11If we reduce the interest rates, the incentive might be there.
0:14:11 > 0:14:14- They're low enough, in my opinion. - Bethan, come back in.
0:14:14 > 0:14:18We need these powers here in Wales for us to be able to change
0:14:18 > 0:14:21and develop the economy.
0:14:21 > 0:14:24Then we can do things totally differently and bring in new systems
0:14:24 > 0:14:28where small businesses can get more money and we create more jobs.
0:14:28 > 0:14:31That's what we need.
0:14:31 > 0:14:33And then taxes in Wales will be higher than England
0:14:33 > 0:14:36and people will move to England and Wales will default.
0:14:36 > 0:14:39We need to tax the wealthy in society.
0:14:39 > 0:14:43This leads us very smoothly to the second question in today's show
0:14:43 > 0:14:47from Cardiff and that question comes from Jamie.
0:14:47 > 0:14:49What's your question please, Jamie?
0:14:49 > 0:14:52We've heard a lot about Scottish independence recently.
0:14:52 > 0:14:56Would Wales be strong enough to follow the same path?
0:14:56 > 0:14:58Jamie Walker from Glantaf asks,
0:14:58 > 0:15:03"We've heard a lot about Scottish independence recently.
0:15:03 > 0:15:06Would Wales be strong enough to follow the same path?
0:15:06 > 0:15:08Let's start with you, Felix Aubel.
0:15:08 > 0:15:12I would just say that the Scottish independence argument is nonsense.
0:15:12 > 0:15:17They'll have a referendum and the Scottish people will vote no
0:15:17 > 0:15:21because they know that they depend on money from England
0:15:21 > 0:15:24and this is why Alex Salmond doesn't have enough confidence
0:15:24 > 0:15:27to offer just one question in the referendum,
0:15:27 > 0:15:29"Yes or no to an independent Scotland?"
0:15:29 > 0:15:32He wants a second question on devo max,
0:15:32 > 0:15:35that is a self governing system on domestic Scottish matters,
0:15:35 > 0:15:39because he knows the Scottish people are too sensible
0:15:39 > 0:15:41to vote for independence.
0:15:41 > 0:15:45And what's wrong with offering more than one option?
0:15:45 > 0:15:48For the simple fact that what happens here
0:15:48 > 0:15:52if the Scottish electorate votes in favour of independence
0:15:52 > 0:15:5551 for independence and 49 against,
0:15:55 > 0:15:5875 for devo max and 25 against,
0:15:58 > 0:16:01what is the valid result then?
0:16:01 > 0:16:06The truth is that Scotland isn't going to become independent
0:16:06 > 0:16:10and even in Wales, only 10% of people in Wales are in favour
0:16:10 > 0:16:15of Welsh independence and only one in three of Plaid Cymru's supporters
0:16:15 > 0:16:18are in favour of independence for Wales,
0:16:18 > 0:16:21even though this is an official Plaid Cymru policy.
0:16:21 > 0:16:25- More devolution but not independence.- There we go.
0:16:25 > 0:16:28- Is Wales strong enough to follow Scotland's example?- No.
0:16:28 > 0:16:32- Bethan Jenkins.- Of course, Plaid Cymru member I'd say yes.
0:16:32 > 0:16:36Respond to that point from Felix.
0:16:36 > 0:16:39- Not even your own members agree! - We need to build some momentum.
0:16:39 > 0:16:43As we've seen with the SNP in Scotland, they've built momentum
0:16:43 > 0:16:47and it's up to them if they want to hold a referendum,
0:16:47 > 0:16:51not up to the Tories in Westminster to decide on the question.
0:16:51 > 0:16:55The Westminster has the mandate to set it, not Scotland.
0:16:55 > 0:16:58Scotland has oil, of course.
0:16:58 > 0:17:01Here in Wales, we have plenty of natural resources
0:17:01 > 0:17:05such as water which are used for English regions.
0:17:05 > 0:17:08We have no responsibility over our natural resources
0:17:08 > 0:17:11so we need to hold the discussion
0:17:11 > 0:17:15and gauge the public mood in Wales
0:17:15 > 0:17:18on what an independent Wales would look like.
0:17:18 > 0:17:21Is Felix's point a fair one?
0:17:21 > 0:17:26You can't convince your own party members of the argument.
0:17:26 > 0:17:29We need to hold an open discussion on this.
0:17:29 > 0:17:33We've got a leadership race going on at the moment
0:17:33 > 0:17:37and independence is at the top of all of the candidates' agendas.
0:17:37 > 0:17:40That is a good thing for us as a party.
0:17:40 > 0:17:42Yes but the point is, in reality,
0:17:42 > 0:17:47the best thing we can have in Wales is more devolution.
0:17:47 > 0:17:49I supported yes campaign last year
0:17:49 > 0:17:53so that more decisions can be made in Wales
0:17:53 > 0:17:56but if Wales was independent from England,
0:17:56 > 0:18:01we'd lose the Barnett formula, we'd lose benefits
0:18:01 > 0:18:05and taxes in Wales would have to go up after facilities moved to England
0:18:05 > 0:18:08as businesses move to the other side of the Severn.
0:18:08 > 0:18:11What is the British system, as things stand?
0:18:11 > 0:18:15We were talking about banks. How has that system helped Wales? It hasn't.
0:18:15 > 0:18:19We need to have the powers here in Wales so that we can shape our future and develop the economy.
0:18:19 > 0:18:22It isn't up to people in London to decide that over us.
0:18:22 > 0:18:25You're not doing a good job as the Assembly Government!
0:18:25 > 0:18:28Let's not let this descend into an argument. Devo max for Wales?
0:18:28 > 0:18:31- Devo max for Wales.- So that question would be all right for Wales?
0:18:31 > 0:18:34It's fine to get a question on further powers
0:18:34 > 0:18:37but what people in Wales want to see is the Assembly Government
0:18:37 > 0:18:42making use of the powers we campaigned for last year
0:18:42 > 0:18:45and if we succeed, then they should go for further powers.
0:18:45 > 0:18:50Self governance on domestic issues but Westminster should control foreign affairs,
0:18:50 > 0:18:52defence and law and order.
0:18:52 > 0:18:55Gareth and Carol, I haven't forgotten about you.
0:18:55 > 0:18:58Let's open it up to the audience.
0:18:58 > 0:19:01You asked the question Jamie, what do you think?
0:19:01 > 0:19:04At the moment I don't think Wales is powerful enough
0:19:04 > 0:19:09and it hasn't got the financial means to survive as an independent country.
0:19:09 > 0:19:13I'd like Wales to be an independent country but at the moment,
0:19:13 > 0:19:19I think we need to put an emphasis on infrastructure and industry.
0:19:19 > 0:19:23You'd like to see it but we're a long way away, yes? Is that fair?
0:19:23 > 0:19:26Richard Hopkin. Let's get the microphone to you.
0:19:26 > 0:19:29I've got a question for Bethan. If Wales becomes independent,
0:19:29 > 0:19:33what would happen with the pound currency?
0:19:33 > 0:19:36Would it be the Westminster Treasury
0:19:36 > 0:19:39or the Treasury in Frankfurt in the European Union?
0:19:39 > 0:19:44I think that's what it says on your website.
0:19:44 > 0:19:48Or would there be a new currency here in Cardiff? How would it work?
0:19:48 > 0:19:50That question has been raised in the Scottish context
0:19:50 > 0:19:54and Alex Salmond doesn't have an answer to the question.
0:19:54 > 0:19:56You'll get to answer in a moment,
0:19:56 > 0:19:59but not now, Bethan. Let's get the microphone over here.
0:19:59 > 0:20:02Just to respond to the argument that Wales wouldn't survive
0:20:02 > 0:20:05as an independent country.
0:20:05 > 0:20:09Isn't the fact that we're one of the poorest countries in Europe
0:20:09 > 0:20:12show that in our current situation as a British region
0:20:12 > 0:20:14we aren't getting fair financial treatment?
0:20:14 > 0:20:17Right. Fair point. In the back row.
0:20:17 > 0:20:22Just to pick up on Felix's point on Scottish independence,
0:20:22 > 0:20:25I'm not in favour if Welsh or Scottish independence.
0:20:25 > 0:20:29Do you want things to stay as they are?
0:20:29 > 0:20:31Yes. I'm happy with it as it is.
0:20:31 > 0:20:34My question is if they don't want to vote for independence,
0:20:34 > 0:20:39- why did they vote for the SNP in the first place?- Good question.
0:20:39 > 0:20:44The simple fact is that the SNP in Scotland is considered
0:20:44 > 0:20:46the main opposition to the Labour Party
0:20:46 > 0:20:50and many Tories vote for the SNP to kick Labour out
0:20:50 > 0:20:52so it's tactical voting.
0:20:52 > 0:20:55As Dafydd Elis-Thomas said on the programme,
0:20:55 > 0:20:59there are around 2,000 Conservatives in Meirionnydd Nant Conwy
0:20:59 > 0:21:01who vote Plaid Cymru to keep the Labour Party out.
0:21:01 > 0:21:04As you've named one of the three candidates,
0:21:04 > 0:21:07I've got to name the other two. Leanne Wood and Elin Jones.
0:21:07 > 0:21:10Where was the other hand up? There we go.
0:21:10 > 0:21:13Sorry, what was your name?
0:21:13 > 0:21:15- Bethan or Felix Aubel? - Felix. That's it.
0:21:15 > 0:21:19The main problem I have with your argument, Felix,
0:21:19 > 0:21:21is it's as if you're depending on the fact,
0:21:21 > 0:21:23no, not the fact,
0:21:23 > 0:21:28but you're dependent on the current situation staying as it is.
0:21:28 > 0:21:32We need to remember that our resources are running out.
0:21:32 > 0:21:37Many people, scientists say that the height of oil has either passed
0:21:37 > 0:21:40or is going to come in the next 10 or 20 years.
0:21:40 > 0:21:42With that in mind,
0:21:42 > 0:21:46there is huge potential in Wales in the renewable energy sector.
0:21:46 > 0:21:50So you'd be in favour of independence as a result of that?
0:21:50 > 0:21:52I've got one answer to this.
0:21:52 > 0:21:56Wales joined the European Union under the United Kingdom.
0:21:56 > 0:21:58If Wales became independent,
0:21:58 > 0:22:01Wales would technically be outside the European Union
0:22:01 > 0:22:05and would have to reapply to become a member
0:22:05 > 0:22:09and Spain, Portugal and France would veto the application
0:22:09 > 0:22:10and stop Wales coming in
0:22:10 > 0:22:13because if they let Wales in as an independent country,
0:22:13 > 0:22:17the Basques and the minorities in those countries would want the same
0:22:17 > 0:22:20and if one European country says no,
0:22:20 > 0:22:22like de Gaulle did with England in the 1960s,
0:22:22 > 0:22:25Wales would be on its own and it would default.
0:22:25 > 0:22:29A large proportion of your party want out of the European Union.
0:22:29 > 0:22:32The simple fact is we need to consider...
0:22:32 > 0:22:34Wouldn't you be happy to see Wales outside the EU?
0:22:34 > 0:22:38We need to appreciate that economically, because Wales
0:22:38 > 0:22:40has been so dependent on European grants,
0:22:40 > 0:22:42without Europe, Wales would go down the plughole
0:22:42 > 0:22:45and unfortunately, that's Plaid Cymru policy.
0:22:45 > 0:22:49You can respond to that in a moment but Carol, come in now.
0:22:49 > 0:22:54- We're not strong enough. We've been part of England...- Part of England?
0:22:54 > 0:22:59We have been part of England. Look at the history. The Act of Union.
0:22:59 > 0:23:02We have been part of England.
0:23:02 > 0:23:04The Act of Union in 1536
0:23:04 > 0:23:07and we've effectively been a part of England
0:23:07 > 0:23:12since 1282, when Llywelyn the Last died.
0:23:12 > 0:23:17We have been a part of England for a very long time.
0:23:17 > 0:23:20It sounds like you regret the fact we're devolved at all, Carol!
0:23:20 > 0:23:22Would that be fair?
0:23:22 > 0:23:26No, what's important to us is we've got our culture.
0:23:26 > 0:23:30The Scots have kept their own money and legal system and banks.
0:23:30 > 0:23:33I'd rather we were here tonight speaking Welsh
0:23:33 > 0:23:36and living a life in which Welsh plays a central part.
0:23:36 > 0:23:39The things that matter to us as a nation, we've held on to.
0:23:39 > 0:23:42APPLAUSE
0:23:42 > 0:23:45There is support for Carol. Gareth.
0:23:45 > 0:23:49I don't think there's a problem with Wales becoming independent.
0:23:49 > 0:23:53We need to accept the fact that if we want independence,
0:23:53 > 0:23:56we need to think about what kind of country it would be.
0:23:56 > 0:24:00Will it be a rich or poor country? That's the question.
0:24:00 > 0:24:02Felix says there will be high taxes.
0:24:02 > 0:24:06If people insist on independence, they can do so.
0:24:06 > 0:24:09There isn't a problem there.
0:24:09 > 0:24:13The problem is that one audience member says,
0:24:13 > 0:24:16"Which financial system will we use?"
0:24:16 > 0:24:19Could we be financially independent? No!
0:24:19 > 0:24:23You can't be financially independent, I don't think.
0:24:23 > 0:24:26And I don't think there are many European countries
0:24:26 > 0:24:29which are economically independent.
0:24:29 > 0:24:34But it is possible for this country to have a seat in what you
0:24:34 > 0:24:37would call the trappings of independence
0:24:37 > 0:24:40as long as we realise they are trappings.
0:24:40 > 0:24:43We are economically dependent on other countries.
0:24:43 > 0:24:46That's the simple fact.
0:24:46 > 0:24:51Those people who say we're not aren't living in the real world.
0:24:51 > 0:24:55Independence is scaremongering because we're interdependent
0:24:55 > 0:24:59not independent because it's a global world-wide economy.
0:24:59 > 0:25:03Thanks Felix, we want to return to the audience.
0:25:03 > 0:25:06Just to respond to Felix's point on Basques and ethnic minorities
0:25:06 > 0:25:10within France and Spain getting a voice in the European Union.
0:25:10 > 0:25:13In a Democratic system,
0:25:13 > 0:25:18shouldn't those people get the right to vote for or against independence?
0:25:18 > 0:25:23I would welcome a referendum on independence next year in Wales
0:25:23 > 0:25:27and 90% of the people of Wales would vote no.
0:25:27 > 0:25:30Bring it on, I would campaign over the United Kingdom.
0:25:30 > 0:25:33I'm bringing this discussion to an end.
0:25:33 > 0:25:36Bethan Jenkins, you can have the last word.
0:25:36 > 0:25:39I think it's important that the people of Wales are listened to.
0:25:39 > 0:25:42Nobody would want to force independence on us.
0:25:42 > 0:25:46Plaid Cymru needs to introduce the discussion.
0:25:46 > 0:25:49Adam Price researched small countries
0:25:49 > 0:25:53that were capable of becoming independent
0:25:53 > 0:25:55and I don't see why we have to be so defensive
0:25:55 > 0:25:59over the fact we'll get these powers in Wales to rule
0:25:59 > 0:26:02over our own people and we won't be part of England
0:26:02 > 0:26:08but we can team up with them on things like the economy and general policies.
0:26:08 > 0:26:12Would you accept that your goal is decades away from being realised?
0:26:12 > 0:26:16- If at all.- We've just had a referendum and of course we need to use these new powers
0:26:16 > 0:26:20and build up the argument for eventual Welsh independence.
0:26:20 > 0:26:25The truth is Plaid Cymru is afraid on an independence referendum
0:26:25 > 0:26:28because 70% of their own members would vote against it
0:26:28 > 0:26:30because they have common sense.
0:26:30 > 0:26:35There will be a Scottish referendum long before that, I'm sure. Thanks to all four of you.
0:26:35 > 0:26:37Thanks to the audience. It's time to take a break.
0:26:37 > 0:26:39Let's go to the advertisements.
0:26:39 > 0:26:42Come back to us in Cardiff Bay in two minutes' time.
0:26:57 > 0:27:00Welcome back you're watching this week's Pawb a'i Farn
0:27:00 > 0:27:04which is coming from the splendid Senedd building here in Cardiff Bay
0:27:04 > 0:27:07with an audience from the capital city.
0:27:07 > 0:27:09Let's go to our next question.
0:27:09 > 0:27:13A word of warning, we've never discussed this topic on the programme before.
0:27:13 > 0:27:16Here we go, it's a first. The question is from Dr Jeremy Segrot.
0:27:16 > 0:27:18What's your question, Jeremy?
0:27:18 > 0:27:22What with the growing popularity of social media such as Twitter and Facebook,
0:27:22 > 0:27:26some argue that they need to be regulated.
0:27:26 > 0:27:29What does the panel think?
0:27:29 > 0:27:32What with the growing popularity of social media such as Twitter
0:27:32 > 0:27:36and Facebook, some argue that they need to be regulated.
0:27:36 > 0:27:39What does the panel think?
0:27:39 > 0:27:41I don't know about the two on the right
0:27:41 > 0:27:45but I know that the panel members on the left are keen users.
0:27:45 > 0:27:48Gareth Huws, let's start with you.
0:27:48 > 0:27:52Yes. The media in Wales, I think, is suffering.
0:27:52 > 0:27:56Newspaper circulation is down and they are closing down
0:27:56 > 0:27:59because readership is down.
0:27:59 > 0:28:01These new media outlets are important.
0:28:01 > 0:28:05I see them as a kind of people's media.
0:28:05 > 0:28:10I don't want them regulated. There are too many regulations in our society as it is.
0:28:10 > 0:28:14There are plenty of things in place to stop certain behaviours.
0:28:14 > 0:28:16There are laws against libel.
0:28:16 > 0:28:19If you do something online,
0:28:19 > 0:28:23the law is there to protect those that are wronged.
0:28:23 > 0:28:29I don't think we need any sort of further regulation.
0:28:29 > 0:28:33The important thing about this is that it's spontaneous.
0:28:33 > 0:28:36People get to have their say.
0:28:36 > 0:28:40We know what they say and there's nobody to interfere.
0:28:40 > 0:28:43Is there a danger that people might make thoughtless comments
0:28:43 > 0:28:47and maybe reveal too much, be too public and not take enough care?
0:28:47 > 0:28:49We all do that sometimes.
0:28:49 > 0:28:52- What does it matter? - It does matter.
0:28:52 > 0:28:58- Are you on Twitter, Felix? - No and I'll tell you why.
0:28:58 > 0:29:01I see lots of people, where I live,
0:29:01 > 0:29:03there are lots of neighbourly disputes.
0:29:03 > 0:29:05They compete against each other
0:29:05 > 0:29:10and people saying that they have 50 friends, others say they have 75.
0:29:10 > 0:29:14People make stories up and put pictures on Facebook
0:29:14 > 0:29:18and so on, pretending they've been places on holiday
0:29:18 > 0:29:20and I know that they've been in the village.
0:29:20 > 0:29:23They are competing against each other.
0:29:23 > 0:29:26I see it as virtual reality
0:29:26 > 0:29:28and it's a false world.
0:29:28 > 0:29:31Where do you live, Felix? LAUGHTER
0:29:31 > 0:29:34In the countryside outside Carmarthen.
0:29:34 > 0:29:39But what I'm saying is that people are living in a false paradise.
0:29:39 > 0:29:41Don't talk about regulation.
0:29:41 > 0:29:45People do silly things such as go on Facebook
0:29:45 > 0:29:47and say where they're going on holiday,
0:29:47 > 0:29:49what presents they've received,
0:29:49 > 0:29:54put pictures of their homes and what they've got in the house.
0:29:54 > 0:29:56All they're doing is inviting thieves
0:29:56 > 0:29:59because thieves go into these places for rich pickings.
0:29:59 > 0:30:04There are people who apply for jobs and don't get an interview.
0:30:04 > 0:30:09A recent online survey said that over a third of people
0:30:09 > 0:30:14who don't get invited back to interview don't get an interview
0:30:14 > 0:30:18because the employer has looked at their Facebook and Twitter accounts.
0:30:18 > 0:30:20That's one of the dangers.
0:30:20 > 0:30:23Bethan Jenkins, isn't another,
0:30:23 > 0:30:25as we heard in a Westminster report this week,
0:30:25 > 0:30:29that people use it to bully and stalk people?
0:30:29 > 0:30:32Of course there are problems like that.
0:30:32 > 0:30:34I've had personal experience of them.
0:30:34 > 0:30:37People being unpleasant to you?
0:30:37 > 0:30:43Yes and I've had to report it to the police. I think we need...
0:30:43 > 0:30:46Wouldn't you have thought that Twitter or Facebook would be
0:30:46 > 0:30:51more prepared to protect you from that type of thing?
0:30:51 > 0:30:55It is unregulated and I could argue that it should be regulated.
0:30:55 > 0:30:59There are laws in place. There are laws against stalking.
0:30:59 > 0:31:02It's important to use it, especially as a politician.
0:31:02 > 0:31:06People of all ages chat with me Facebook and Twitter and ask me
0:31:06 > 0:31:10to take up cases for them via Twitter but we need to make sure
0:31:10 > 0:31:17the people who use it are aware of their rights if they are bullied.
0:31:17 > 0:31:22Technology can be used for good, as we have seen,
0:31:22 > 0:31:25but it can also be a force for bad.
0:31:25 > 0:31:28In the last few days, some people wanted to take
0:31:28 > 0:31:34pictures off Facebook that they've had on there since 2003 because they were embarrassed of them.
0:31:34 > 0:31:36Facebook refused to change the settings
0:31:36 > 0:31:39so to an extent once you put something on Facebook,
0:31:39 > 0:31:43there's nothing wrong with that, but you need to accept
0:31:43 > 0:31:49that it could be all over the world and don't depend on Facebook to protect your privacy.
0:31:49 > 0:31:52Jeremy, what do you think?
0:31:52 > 0:31:55I agree to an extent that you need to be sensible
0:31:55 > 0:31:58when you put something on Twitter.
0:31:58 > 0:32:01It's a public forum.
0:32:01 > 0:32:06I also agree with your point about the fact that things like Twitter
0:32:06 > 0:32:11and Facebook are full of potential to communicate with politicians.
0:32:11 > 0:32:15- As a researcher, I think Twitter is a great thing.- There you go.
0:32:15 > 0:32:17And the man behind you.
0:32:17 > 0:32:21I'm Karl and I work in social media.
0:32:21 > 0:32:25- So you're an expert in the matter. - I hope so.
0:32:25 > 0:32:31I wanted to say that there's already legislation linked to these companies.
0:32:31 > 0:32:36For example, libel, copyright and things like data protection.
0:32:36 > 0:32:42You need to be sensible about these companies because even though
0:32:42 > 0:32:48these services can be really useful for people, companies, institutions
0:32:48 > 0:32:53and communities, companies like Facebook have an awful track record
0:32:53 > 0:32:57on privacy and terms and conditions.
0:32:57 > 0:33:02They change the terms and conditions once or twice a year.
0:33:02 > 0:33:05So would you argue that we need tighter regulation?
0:33:05 > 0:33:07We need to be sensible.
0:33:07 > 0:33:11So as individuals we need to be sensible
0:33:11 > 0:33:13and not depend on others to protect us.
0:33:18 > 0:33:24No, I don't agree. We need regulations regarding privacy.
0:33:24 > 0:33:27But there are more advantages, in your opinion?
0:33:27 > 0:33:29Your hand was up.
0:33:29 > 0:33:35Ysgol Plasmawr. I'd better mention you as we mentioned Glantaf earlier.
0:33:35 > 0:33:40- I don't want any jealousy. - It's a much better school.
0:33:40 > 0:33:46But, of course, this technology was used over the summer
0:33:46 > 0:33:52by some people to organise and urge people to riot in London.
0:33:52 > 0:33:56What does the panel think of this use?
0:33:56 > 0:33:58We'll come back to the panel in a minute. Jamie?
0:33:58 > 0:34:01There are plenty of ways to manage your privacy
0:34:01 > 0:34:07and the ways in which people can contact you on Twitter and Facebook.
0:34:07 > 0:34:11So I'd like to ask, do you think any further regulations are needed?
0:34:11 > 0:34:16Will it just be another way of restricting users' civil rights?
0:34:16 > 0:34:18Right, Sion. Your hand was up.
0:34:18 > 0:34:22We need more education, rather than more rules.
0:34:22 > 0:34:27One of the things that worries me is that people are over-reliant
0:34:27 > 0:34:30on this technology and they always have to report what they're up to.
0:34:30 > 0:34:33So the question for Bethan is how many people in the Senedd
0:34:33 > 0:34:39are tweeting instead of concentrating on what's being said?
0:34:39 > 0:34:42That's a good question.
0:34:42 > 0:34:44Are you too willing to reveal things about yourself?
0:34:44 > 0:34:47I'm very careful.
0:34:47 > 0:34:52There are plenty of things in place to safeguard people.
0:34:52 > 0:34:57You don't have to accept someone as a friend on Facebook, for example.
0:34:57 > 0:35:02But I think Facebook and Twitter have plenty of potential and are
0:35:02 > 0:35:07so free and I think that's what is great about the internet is that it
0:35:07 > 0:35:11is free of national law and I think we're going down a dangerous path
0:35:11 > 0:35:14if we let governments take action.
0:35:14 > 0:35:17So people stalking and bullying and so on, that's not a concern?
0:35:17 > 0:35:21- There are enough regulations in place.- I think so.
0:35:21 > 0:35:23I think we need to be sensible.
0:35:23 > 0:35:26You don't have to accept people as friends.
0:35:26 > 0:35:31It's easy enough to stop people from seeing your profile and so on.
0:35:31 > 0:35:35I think it's up to the individual to look after themselves.
0:35:35 > 0:35:37Right, your hand is up.
0:35:37 > 0:35:40The younger generation is obviously using this media.
0:35:40 > 0:35:44What about the older generation? Have you any interest in these things?
0:35:44 > 0:35:47Some are shaking their heads.
0:35:47 > 0:35:51I'd just like to add to Siobhan's point.
0:35:51 > 0:35:54She said that these sites have caused violence.
0:35:54 > 0:35:57But also, so many of the revolutions in Africa
0:35:57 > 0:36:02and in the east benefited from the use of Twitter and Facebook.
0:36:02 > 0:36:05There we are. Carol, we haven't heard from you on this.
0:36:05 > 0:36:07The genie is out of the bottle.
0:36:07 > 0:36:10Have you got a Twitter or Facebook account?
0:36:10 > 0:36:13Yes, but there's nothing about me on them.
0:36:13 > 0:36:17- I follow Adam Jones on Twitter. - Right.
0:36:17 > 0:36:19I'd follow Gethin Jenkins if he was on Twitter.
0:36:19 > 0:36:25- They're your heroes! What do you think about this?- They're my heroes.
0:36:25 > 0:36:29To communicate with the younger generation,
0:36:29 > 0:36:32you have to communicate with them on Facebook.
0:36:32 > 0:36:35That's how they talk to each other.
0:36:35 > 0:36:39If I want to keep in touch with them, that's how I talk to them.
0:36:39 > 0:36:42So I understand a little about it.
0:36:42 > 0:36:47Two things - I think there is a way to move things forward,
0:36:47 > 0:36:53as regards technology, by sharing problems through these media.
0:36:53 > 0:36:58Companies are doing research in maths and computers
0:36:58 > 0:37:02and they can put a problem forward on one of these systems
0:37:02 > 0:37:06and in half a day, 20 people have had a shot at sorting it out.
0:37:06 > 0:37:11And this can move things forward. It's very positive.
0:37:11 > 0:37:13That's a good thing.
0:37:13 > 0:37:19And the second thing, of course, is the role they play in breaking news.
0:37:19 > 0:37:25All of us have phones and probably have a camera on them.
0:37:25 > 0:37:28And we probably have a video camera
0:37:28 > 0:37:31and we have the means to put on the internet.
0:37:31 > 0:37:35It's very easy and it's very powerful.
0:37:35 > 0:37:38The things we referred to don't concern you?
0:37:38 > 0:37:41For example, terrorism in London,
0:37:41 > 0:37:45I've also referred to stalking and bullying.
0:37:45 > 0:37:49Well, bad things can happen, yes, but things such as what happened
0:37:49 > 0:37:53in Egypt can be organised in the same way.
0:37:53 > 0:37:56Right. Bethan?
0:37:56 > 0:38:00Just in response to the point about tweeting in the Senedd,
0:38:00 > 0:38:04I think it's important AMs communicate regarding what is...
0:38:04 > 0:38:07So when you're sat in the back row, you're tweeting?
0:38:07 > 0:38:11- Yes, because I think...- Why aren't you listening to the speaker?
0:38:11 > 0:38:18I will be tweeting about what that person is saying.
0:38:18 > 0:38:22If Kirsty Williams or Ieuan Wyn Jones asks a question,
0:38:22 > 0:38:24I would update that so the people
0:38:24 > 0:38:29who might not be watching the Senedd can see what is happening.
0:38:29 > 0:38:32Gareth, the final word.
0:38:32 > 0:38:37Well, I think it helps democracy in Wales.
0:38:37 > 0:38:42We can ensure that opinions are heard
0:38:42 > 0:38:45and people outside know what is going on.
0:38:45 > 0:38:50- That's important in society. - They fill a gap regarding democracy.
0:38:50 > 0:38:54There we are. We are going for another break.
0:38:54 > 0:38:58We will discuss another subject after the break.
0:39:14 > 0:39:18Welcome back. Plenty of chat going on during the break.
0:39:18 > 0:39:21Everyone's enjoying themselves.
0:39:21 > 0:39:25Remember you can get in touch with us on Twitter. It is on the screen.
0:39:25 > 0:39:28Let's move on to the next question, it comes from Sion.
0:39:28 > 0:39:30What's your question?
0:39:30 > 0:39:35The carbon dioxide released into the atmosphere in the UK is up 3.8%.
0:39:35 > 0:39:38That's according to the latest figures.
0:39:38 > 0:39:42As debates continue over renewable energy, how are we expected
0:39:42 > 0:39:47to produce enough electricity over the next decade?
0:39:47 > 0:39:52Yes, the carbon dioxide being released into the atmosphere
0:39:52 > 0:39:56has increased, according to the latest figures.
0:39:56 > 0:40:00How are we expected to produce enough electricity over the coming decade?
0:40:00 > 0:40:03- You're an expert in this field. - The quick answer is gas.
0:40:03 > 0:40:08And the answer is for us to reduce the amount of energy we use.
0:40:08 > 0:40:13I have said this a number of times, especially on the radio.
0:40:13 > 0:40:17People in this country have become used to jumping in the car
0:40:17 > 0:40:21to go to the shop four or five times a week.
0:40:21 > 0:40:26When I was a child, we'd go to Swansea maybe once a fortnight.
0:40:26 > 0:40:32People should also be sharing cars to travel to work.
0:40:32 > 0:40:36Society has changed. We're not going to take a step backwards.
0:40:36 > 0:40:38No, but we can't have it both ways.
0:40:38 > 0:40:42We can't start talking about the environment
0:40:42 > 0:40:48and complain the price of oil is too high, unless we take responsibility.
0:40:48 > 0:40:54Now, of course, beyond ten years, we have to think about nuclear energy.
0:40:54 > 0:40:58And that's the most possible thing at the moment.
0:40:58 > 0:41:02Not the same kind of nuclear power stations as we have now to answer
0:41:02 > 0:41:05the needs of the '60s and '70s.
0:41:05 > 0:41:08It was the time of the Cold War and we had to make plutonium
0:41:08 > 0:41:13and we needed the enriched uranium to make bombs.
0:41:13 > 0:41:16That's not the situation we find ourselves in now.
0:41:16 > 0:41:19Do you think it's safer?
0:41:19 > 0:41:24You're producing something that won't take decades to degrade.
0:41:24 > 0:41:29We don't have much time left. Doesn't the cloud of Fukushima worry you?
0:41:29 > 0:41:32We're not on a continental margin in Wales.
0:41:34 > 0:41:38Japan, the Pacific plate goes underneath Japan
0:41:38 > 0:41:41and you're going to have earthquakes.
0:41:41 > 0:41:45We're not in the same situation at Wylfa.
0:41:45 > 0:41:48So you're saying that something like that could never happen in Wales.
0:41:48 > 0:41:52That kind of thing cannot happen in Wales.
0:41:52 > 0:41:54Nuclear energy, Bethan Jenkins.
0:41:54 > 0:41:59I think we need to develop natural resources in Wales.
0:41:59 > 0:42:04We need the power to legislate on that.
0:42:04 > 0:42:10We need to think about situations where we can have more wind energy.
0:42:10 > 0:42:13The Tories and Labour are all over the place on this point.
0:42:13 > 0:42:18We need the power for over 50 megawatt in Wales,
0:42:18 > 0:42:23- so we can make decisions. - Your policy is inconsistent.
0:42:23 > 0:42:27Plaid Cymru's policy, outside Anglesey, is no nuclear power.
0:42:27 > 0:42:31You support nuclear energy on Anglesey because you know if you
0:42:31 > 0:42:35opposed nuclear energy on Anglesey, you'd lose your Assembly seat.
0:42:35 > 0:42:39Dafydd Elis-Thomas himself said that last night.
0:42:39 > 0:42:44Your party is split on this matter. What about solar energy?
0:42:44 > 0:42:49Research has come out now that by decommissioning these noisy,
0:42:49 > 0:42:55ugly things, that destroy the environment,
0:42:55 > 0:42:59you use more carbon in getting rid of them than you save.
0:42:59 > 0:43:05- 100 Tory MPs this week wanted to see fewer wind farms.- I agree.
0:43:05 > 0:43:12- So do I. I must say this right now. - But how do you close the gap?
0:43:12 > 0:43:17The problem with wind farms is that for every megawatt,
0:43:17 > 0:43:23the person running the grid needs the same amount of gas on standby.
0:43:23 > 0:43:30- They're good for nothing.- It's just companies making money.
0:43:30 > 0:43:36- The people are not benefiting. - Bethan, come back in on that.
0:43:36 > 0:43:41Creating companies where the people of Wales benefit.
0:43:41 > 0:43:45People should be benefiting from what is happening in Wales,
0:43:45 > 0:43:47not these rich companies.
0:43:47 > 0:43:51- Gareth, briefly.- I don't think Felix is right in saying that.
0:43:51 > 0:43:54He wants to get rid of wind farms,
0:43:54 > 0:44:01but his party has just removed the subsidy on solar panels.
0:44:01 > 0:44:05- It doesn't make sense. - The level was unsuitable.
0:44:05 > 0:44:08You safeguard this and safeguard that...
0:44:08 > 0:44:12I'll give you an easy answer, we're looking at it in the wrong way.
0:44:12 > 0:44:17In Wales, we have houses that were built not in the last century,
0:44:17 > 0:44:21but the century before and they need to be renovated.
0:44:21 > 0:44:27If we did the work, less energy would be used in houses
0:44:27 > 0:44:33and we could cut the amount of electricity we use.
0:44:33 > 0:44:37With the policies that came from the previous government
0:44:37 > 0:44:44and are continuing now, we don't have a good energy policy and have
0:44:44 > 0:44:47provided subsidies for the wrong things and we, the public,
0:44:47 > 0:44:52will pay for them and we will make the industry uncompetitive.
0:44:52 > 0:44:56I want to hear from the audience. Sion, you asked the question.
0:44:56 > 0:45:01I think we maybe need to discuss the balance between renewable energy
0:45:01 > 0:45:04and saving energy.
0:45:04 > 0:45:09Renewable energy is quite sexy and renovating old houses isn't.
0:45:11 > 0:45:15- We need to concentrate more on that. - Right in front of me.
0:45:15 > 0:45:19What's the best way to persuade people to use public transport?
0:45:19 > 0:45:23That's a good question, but we don't have time to answer it.
0:45:23 > 0:45:28- In the back row.- I think we need to be more realistic with wind energy.
0:45:28 > 0:45:33Compared with nuclear, the farms only create about 5% of the energy.
0:45:33 > 0:45:39- We need to look again at tidal energy.- In favour of nuclear?
0:45:39 > 0:45:45- Yes. It's much safer. - No choice. Yes, you here.
0:45:45 > 0:45:50The nonsense I've heard about the footprint
0:45:50 > 0:45:53from wind farms is ridiculous.
0:45:53 > 0:45:58If you're talking about the carbon footprint from decommissioning
0:45:58 > 0:46:03these nuclear plants, they take decades.
0:46:03 > 0:46:09You're talking about a tiny amount from wind farms. It's nonsense.
0:46:09 > 0:46:13The way in which plutonium is now made is entirely different.
0:46:13 > 0:46:16Hang on. We could continue for another half an hour,
0:46:16 > 0:46:18but it's the end of the programme.
0:46:18 > 0:46:22It has flown by once again. Thank you to the audience and the panel.
0:46:22 > 0:46:26Next week, we'll be discussing the Welsh language in Swansea.
0:46:26 > 0:46:30But for now, thanks for watching and good night.