0:00:24 > 0:00:29On our panel this evening in Swansea, Welsh lecturer Dr Simon Brooks,
0:00:29 > 0:00:32political commentator Rod Richards,
0:00:32 > 0:00:35Bethan Williams, chair of Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg,
0:00:35 > 0:00:39and head of Tinopolis TV company Ron Jones.
0:00:39 > 0:00:41Give them a warm welcome.
0:00:51 > 0:00:56Good evening and welcome to a special edition of Pawb a'i Farn.
0:00:56 > 0:00:58Tonight, we are devoting the entire hour to discussing
0:00:58 > 0:01:02the situation in which the Welsh language finds itself in 2012.
0:01:02 > 0:01:04We are in Swansea,
0:01:04 > 0:01:07the city in which Saunders Lewis came to lecture 90 years ago,
0:01:07 > 0:01:11long before his most famous speech about the fate of the language.
0:01:11 > 0:01:15In that speech in 1962, he called for a revolution to save it.
0:01:15 > 0:01:20In the 50 years since, plenty has changed for better and for worse,
0:01:20 > 0:01:24and we can discuss that, as we consider the future challenges.
0:01:24 > 0:01:27We have a panel representing different points of view
0:01:27 > 0:01:31and also the audience at Brangwyn Hall.
0:01:31 > 0:01:35There are some here representing organisations and bodies,
0:01:35 > 0:01:38but the majority are locals.
0:01:38 > 0:01:43I hope you will all be keen to contribute. We only have an hour.
0:01:43 > 0:01:49But let's get started with a question from Terry Davies at the back.
0:01:49 > 0:01:53In the 50 years since Saunders Lewis' lecture, the status
0:01:53 > 0:01:59of Welsh has strengthened, but the language continues to lose ground.
0:01:59 > 0:02:03Should we now be safeguarding our communities?
0:02:03 > 0:02:05Terry, thank you for the opening question,
0:02:05 > 0:02:08leading us in this debate on the language.
0:02:08 > 0:02:11In the 50 years since the lecture, the status of Welsh
0:02:11 > 0:02:15has strengthened, but the language continues to lose ground.
0:02:15 > 0:02:20Should we now be fighting to safeguard our communities?
0:02:20 > 0:02:23- I'll start with you, Simon Brooks. - Status is important.
0:02:23 > 0:02:28It's important because it relates to our rights as citizens.
0:02:28 > 0:02:29But it's also important
0:02:29 > 0:02:33because status raises confidence among Welsh speakers.
0:02:33 > 0:02:37Self-confident Welsh speakers are more likely to use
0:02:37 > 0:02:41the language socially. So it's important we don't try
0:02:41 > 0:02:45and play status against social use of the Welsh language.
0:02:45 > 0:02:49But social use of the language is more important
0:02:49 > 0:02:52and that is a vital lesson for us, as Welsh speakers.
0:02:52 > 0:02:54There are two things we must do.
0:02:54 > 0:02:59Firstly, we need to face our own responsibilities as Welsh speakers
0:02:59 > 0:03:05to be confident in our use of the language and use it
0:03:05 > 0:03:10whenever we get the opportunity in our daily lives.
0:03:10 > 0:03:14Secondly, we need to realise that using the language
0:03:14 > 0:03:21in our communities is tied in with the success of our communities.
0:03:21 > 0:03:24And we need to press our government in Cardiff Bay
0:03:24 > 0:03:28to ensure that the correct policies as regards the economy,
0:03:28 > 0:03:32planning and education are nurtured.
0:03:32 > 0:03:37That is now more important than any battle for status?
0:03:37 > 0:03:40Is that what you would accept?
0:03:40 > 0:03:42I think the future of the language as a community language
0:03:42 > 0:03:45should be a priority for the language bodies
0:03:45 > 0:03:50and for us as Welsh speakers over the coming decades.
0:03:50 > 0:03:56- Rod Richards.- The emphasis on status is the big problem.
0:03:56 > 0:03:59It's a weakness and that is what has led us
0:03:59 > 0:04:03to the second part of this very good question.
0:04:03 > 0:04:05It's the status.
0:04:05 > 0:04:10We have the structure, we have rules, these Welsh totem poles,
0:04:10 > 0:04:13we all dance around them and they're good for nothing.
0:04:13 > 0:04:18- Weren't they needed?- No. - They weren't needed?
0:04:18 > 0:04:20Yes, but they don't help people
0:04:20 > 0:04:24or increase the number of Welsh speakers.
0:04:24 > 0:04:31The biggest problem, I feel, and I feel strongly about this,
0:04:31 > 0:04:37is that the language has been stolen from the ordinary people
0:04:37 > 0:04:42to satisfy the political aims of the middle classes in Wales.
0:04:42 > 0:04:47- Let me give you some examples. - Well, one or two.
0:04:47 > 0:04:50It's no longer enough to speak Welsh.
0:04:50 > 0:04:53You have to be a part of the institution.
0:04:53 > 0:04:58That means you are a republican, a national socialist,
0:04:58 > 0:05:03anti-British, anti-English, a pacifist etc.
0:05:03 > 0:05:06You praise everything that happens through the medium of Welsh,
0:05:06 > 0:05:11even though it often is below second rate.
0:05:11 > 0:05:16- Is that a description of you, Simon Brooks?- Well, I'm not a socialist.
0:05:16 > 0:05:22That's certain. That is nonsense, Rod.
0:05:22 > 0:05:26The status of Welsh has raised the hopes of a group who have
0:05:26 > 0:05:29been historically underprivileged in our country.
0:05:29 > 0:05:33The fact that Cymdeithas yr Iaith, for example, has fought
0:05:33 > 0:05:39for the status of the language has been extremely important,
0:05:39 > 0:05:43but celebrating Tynged yr Iaith this year, we need to look forward...
0:05:43 > 0:05:47Bethan admitted in the Western Mail this week that the communities
0:05:47 > 0:05:54had not received enough attention and now is the time to move forward.
0:05:54 > 0:06:00It's too late. We've lost half a century.
0:06:00 > 0:06:04- It's never too late in life, Rod. - Let's turn to Bethan.
0:06:04 > 0:06:06Certainly, it's not too late.
0:06:06 > 0:06:09We have to ensure that we celebrate
0:06:09 > 0:06:13and acknowledge all the gains we've had over the past 50 years.
0:06:13 > 0:06:17It's a chance for us this year to thank language campaigners,
0:06:17 > 0:06:20everyone who has been a part of the battle during the past 50 years,
0:06:20 > 0:06:24to ensure we're in the place where we are now.
0:06:24 > 0:06:28Last year, we broadcast a lecture, Tynged yr Iaith 2.
0:06:28 > 0:06:31As a result of the past 50 years, we're now in a situation
0:06:31 > 0:06:36where we're not asking whether the language has a future
0:06:36 > 0:06:40because there is certainty, it has some sort of a future.
0:06:40 > 0:06:43- According to Rod Richards, it's too late.- It's not.
0:06:43 > 0:06:46I didn't get a chance to answer the second part of the question.
0:06:46 > 0:06:49- You can come back. - But we're asking the question -
0:06:49 > 0:06:53is it a minority culture or the language of a nation.
0:06:53 > 0:06:56If we want it to be a community language, a living language,
0:06:56 > 0:06:59a natural language, then we need to act.
0:06:59 > 0:07:03We need to act now and not just talk about it.
0:07:03 > 0:07:10- Ron Jones.- I was part of the first consultative language board.
0:07:13 > 0:07:17Of course, back then, we were preparing government
0:07:17 > 0:07:21for a language measure and status was important.
0:07:22 > 0:07:26The '67 legislation had not given it status.
0:07:26 > 0:07:29The board lost the argument with the government,
0:07:29 > 0:07:33regarding the principle of equal responsibility.
0:07:33 > 0:07:35One way of giving it status.
0:07:37 > 0:07:42Also, on that original board, there was the desire to work closely
0:07:42 > 0:07:47with communities to safeguard language within the community.
0:07:49 > 0:07:53And it's fair to say, that battle was also lost.
0:07:53 > 0:07:59What we eventually got was a way of creating status through a long
0:07:59 > 0:08:04and painful process of language plans and so on.
0:08:04 > 0:08:07Over the years,
0:08:07 > 0:08:12the Welsh Language Board turned its back on working with communities
0:08:12 > 0:08:18to secure what Simon was talking about, which is vitally important.
0:08:18 > 0:08:22If you take the village I grew up in,
0:08:22 > 0:08:25Saunders Lewis didn't think highly of us villagers.
0:08:25 > 0:08:29We were totally comfortable living in a Welsh language community.
0:08:29 > 0:08:32It wasn't the type of community he'd have liked.
0:08:32 > 0:08:35It was a working class community and not part of any elite.
0:08:35 > 0:08:38But of course, by now, with all the status the language has gained,
0:08:38 > 0:08:41the village has lost the Welsh language.
0:08:41 > 0:08:45Are you trying to say that it was a mistake to try to
0:08:45 > 0:08:47fight for the status, as so many have been doing?
0:08:47 > 0:08:50No. not at all.
0:08:50 > 0:08:53I think we made too much of the status issue
0:08:53 > 0:08:56and not enough of the day-to-day.
0:08:56 > 0:08:59- We need to do both but in a different way to what happened.- Rod.
0:08:59 > 0:09:03Edwardian castles have status but they belong to the past.
0:09:03 > 0:09:07The key to the answer is in the question.
0:09:07 > 0:09:09It's about communities.
0:09:09 > 0:09:13What is a community? That's what we need to decide.
0:09:13 > 0:09:16It isn't a geographic feature any more.
0:09:16 > 0:09:18A community means,
0:09:18 > 0:09:21you can be a community within a club.
0:09:21 > 0:09:26As it happens, I belong to a community with Ron. The Scarlets.
0:09:26 > 0:09:29- Everyone around me speaks Welsh. - That isn't true, Rod.
0:09:29 > 0:09:32Communities do exist.
0:09:32 > 0:09:34Communities do exist in Wales.
0:09:34 > 0:09:38Welsh language communities exist in Wales.
0:09:38 > 0:09:41We have a devolved government in Cardiff
0:09:41 > 0:09:44and that government has a responsibility to form intelligent
0:09:44 > 0:09:49policies in matters of economy, housing, planning and education,
0:09:49 > 0:09:52which protect the use of the Welsh language in those communities.
0:09:52 > 0:09:57I'm saying that communities are more than a geographic matter.
0:09:57 > 0:10:01That's the point I'm making.
0:10:01 > 0:10:03What do you make of Rod's earlier point,
0:10:03 > 0:10:06that this new status for the language
0:10:06 > 0:10:08has just creating safe, middle class jobs
0:10:08 > 0:10:12and it is being distanced from the Welsh communities?
0:10:12 > 0:10:16To an extent, Welsh has certainly become a middle class language
0:10:16 > 0:10:19and that is a weakness.
0:10:19 > 0:10:22We need to ensure our language doesn't become
0:10:22 > 0:10:25the domain of one part of society.
0:10:25 > 0:10:28The truth is, the thing that many of us are campaigning over,
0:10:28 > 0:10:31for example, fairness in the housing sector,
0:10:31 > 0:10:35intelligent planning which will help people from less privileged areas
0:10:35 > 0:10:38to find accommodation in their own communities.
0:10:38 > 0:10:41These are issues that are relevant to people who aren't middle class.
0:10:41 > 0:10:45We need to avoid following Rod's example of playing Welsh speakers
0:10:45 > 0:10:49against each other, I completely object to that.
0:10:49 > 0:10:52Do you want to respond?
0:10:52 > 0:10:55I'm not playing them against each other, I'm answering the question.
0:10:55 > 0:10:58- You are.- I'm answering the question about status.
0:10:58 > 0:11:00Terry Davies.
0:11:00 > 0:11:03The two things that worry me at the moment are even though more
0:11:03 > 0:11:07people may be able to speak Welsh, they're not using Welsh.
0:11:07 > 0:11:10If the language becomes an academic and middle-class thing,
0:11:10 > 0:11:13- it doesn't have a bright future ahead of it.- Yes. Ken Rees.
0:11:13 > 0:11:17I think there's a weakness in the Welsh mentality.
0:11:17 > 0:11:19When there's an English person around,
0:11:19 > 0:11:23we tend to switch to English and not continue speaking Welsh
0:11:23 > 0:11:25and pull the English person into the conversation.
0:11:25 > 0:11:27Eifion Davies in the back row.
0:11:27 > 0:11:31Rod Richard's female friend, Lady Thatcher,
0:11:31 > 0:11:36said that there was no such thing as society.
0:11:36 > 0:11:39- Yes.- That's what she said.
0:11:39 > 0:11:41Do you want to elaborate?
0:11:41 > 0:11:44- I don't agree with her.- OK, Ffred Ffransis, let's bring you in here.
0:11:44 > 0:11:47I think Rod Richards has handed us a stick to whip him with.
0:11:47 > 0:11:53- Sorry, I can't hear you.- You've made a rod for your own back here.
0:11:53 > 0:11:56The suggestion that the status of the language
0:11:56 > 0:11:58has nothing to do with sustaining communities is complete nonsense.
0:11:58 > 0:12:02As rural communities, young people in areas
0:12:02 > 0:12:07such as the Conwy Valley, Penmachno and so on,
0:12:07 > 0:12:10fought for the status of the language, they became confident
0:12:10 > 0:12:13and they decided to stay in their communities,
0:12:13 > 0:12:16buy homes and work in their local communities.
0:12:16 > 0:12:19The two things are linked.
0:12:19 > 0:12:22And who was responsible for the problems in the housing market?
0:12:22 > 0:12:24Who sold off social housing
0:12:24 > 0:12:28so that poor people had to move away from their areas
0:12:28 > 0:12:30and schools were threatened?
0:12:30 > 0:12:35Political nonsense coming into a debate over the language once again.
0:12:35 > 0:12:38We need a real revolution.
0:12:38 > 0:12:40As the Welsh Language Society says,
0:12:40 > 0:12:44if we want a living Welsh language, everything needs to change.
0:12:44 > 0:12:46Your aims are political.
0:12:46 > 0:12:50The housing sector is driven by profit.
0:12:50 > 0:12:53The economy is driven by profit, not creating work
0:12:53 > 0:12:55and housing for people.
0:12:55 > 0:12:57The planning system favours corporations
0:12:57 > 0:13:00and it all has to change.
0:13:00 > 0:13:03Right, Ffred Ffransis. Hold on, Rod Richards.
0:13:03 > 0:13:08I wanted to ask why these new words are coming in all the time?
0:13:08 > 0:13:12There are people I know who are learning Welsh
0:13:12 > 0:13:16and when it comes to the grammar, they give up.
0:13:16 > 0:13:20So you think getting the language right is the problem.
0:13:20 > 0:13:22Yes, what about you?
0:13:22 > 0:13:23We need to forget about politics.
0:13:23 > 0:13:27What's important is that we go out into the community and talk to
0:13:27 > 0:13:31people and give them an opportunity to tell us what's needed.
0:13:31 > 0:13:35There's a bit of apathy in our communities.
0:13:35 > 0:13:38The first language Welsh speakers, do they use it?
0:13:38 > 0:13:43They speak English amongst themselves. And what about now?
0:13:43 > 0:13:46We've got a new Assembly panel.
0:13:46 > 0:13:49Why don't they go out into our communities,
0:13:49 > 0:13:53speak to the people and ask them what they want?
0:13:53 > 0:13:55Then they can cobble a scheme together
0:13:55 > 0:13:57and say that they claim the scheme, then.
0:13:57 > 0:14:00Thank you. Delyth.
0:14:00 > 0:14:04Can I just say that Rod Richards is a lapdog to his former mistress,
0:14:04 > 0:14:05Margaret Thatcher.
0:14:05 > 0:14:09The Tories have never been friends of Wales.
0:14:09 > 0:14:12If all of us took on the burden of our own language
0:14:12 > 0:14:14and spoke the language...
0:14:14 > 0:14:18Wasn't it under the Tories that we got our own television channel?
0:14:18 > 0:14:22..Ffred and the like wouldn't have to work so hard to sustain
0:14:22 > 0:14:26our language if we all used Welsh whenever we got the opportunity.
0:14:26 > 0:14:29You're confirming what I said, It's political.
0:14:29 > 0:14:32- You're all saying the same thing. - We'll come back to you, Rod.
0:14:32 > 0:14:35Mark Phillips you're chair of the Welsh Language Board.
0:14:35 > 0:14:40Yes. From 1st April onwards, the rules of the game are changing
0:14:40 > 0:14:44and you can't disassociate politics and the language in that context,
0:14:44 > 0:14:49because the government has decided not only to appoint a commissioner,
0:14:49 > 0:14:52and we really welcome that as a powerful post,
0:14:52 > 0:14:54but also to take a lot of the visionary work
0:14:54 > 0:14:57the Language Board has carried out
0:14:57 > 0:15:01in terms of developing the language on a community level and to take
0:15:01 > 0:15:07that into the government and make it the responsibility of the minister.
0:15:07 > 0:15:10But within the government,
0:15:10 > 0:15:13who's going to be responsible for promoting the language?
0:15:13 > 0:15:17The minister has taken on that responsibility.
0:15:17 > 0:15:20He is also responsible for mainstreaming Welsh
0:15:20 > 0:15:22across every part of Government.
0:15:22 > 0:15:27The civil service needs to fundamentally change its attitude.
0:15:27 > 0:15:30They're at an advantage in that they take a team of talented
0:15:30 > 0:15:34staff from the Welsh Language Board in,
0:15:34 > 0:15:36but their attitude towards community development
0:15:36 > 0:15:40needs to change completely.
0:15:40 > 0:15:44What does community development mean? Work? Jobs?
0:15:44 > 0:15:47Yes, certainly.
0:15:47 > 0:15:51Work, jobs, planning and projects to promote new
0:15:51 > 0:15:56ways of transferring the language from one generation to the next,
0:15:56 > 0:16:00of creating opportunities for our young people to use the language.
0:16:00 > 0:16:03There's a hand up here. Go on.
0:16:03 > 0:16:09There used to be communities when the coal mines were open
0:16:09 > 0:16:12up until 20 years ago.
0:16:12 > 0:16:16Now that they've closed,
0:16:16 > 0:16:20the community has been destroyed.
0:16:20 > 0:16:23We might have to reopen the coal mines
0:16:23 > 0:16:27now the price of coal has risen.
0:16:27 > 0:16:29Job creation, in other words, is your message.
0:16:29 > 0:16:31Catherine Rees from Business Enterprise.
0:16:31 > 0:16:34Do we have it in us in Wales to go out there to create these jobs
0:16:34 > 0:16:37that are needed in our communities?
0:16:37 > 0:16:40I'm a great believer in investing in the local economy
0:16:40 > 0:16:43and I feel that businesses, companies
0:16:43 > 0:16:46and entrepreneurship is the way forward.
0:16:46 > 0:16:49If there aren't jobs there for young people,
0:16:49 > 0:16:52they then create this critical mass
0:16:52 > 0:16:55of people and then they create the leaders of the future.
0:16:55 > 0:16:58The people who will start companies but also lead the community
0:16:58 > 0:17:02and create excitement so people want to stay in their communities.
0:17:02 > 0:17:04But I've asked this many times on Pawb a'i Farn,
0:17:04 > 0:17:07is there a lack of entrepreneurial spirit in Welsh speakers?
0:17:07 > 0:17:09- We're unwilling to take risks? - No.
0:17:09 > 0:17:11I think that used to be true
0:17:11 > 0:17:15but the evidence suggests we're just as willing to innovate as anyone.
0:17:15 > 0:17:20and I think it's important, if we want the Welsh language to succeed,
0:17:20 > 0:17:23that we get the economy to succeed.
0:17:23 > 0:17:25The two things are linked.
0:17:25 > 0:17:27To the young person in the back row.
0:17:27 > 0:17:32I think we need to create jobs locally to keep Welsh speakers
0:17:32 > 0:17:34in the community.
0:17:34 > 0:17:36What's happening at the moment is there aren't enough jobs
0:17:36 > 0:17:39in these communities so people are going elsewhere
0:17:39 > 0:17:42and you lose Welsh speakers.
0:17:42 > 0:17:45Eric Davies of CBI Wales.
0:17:45 > 0:17:48I think that...
0:17:48 > 0:17:51I live in the area that Ron was raised
0:17:51 > 0:17:56and it is almost a constant battle to get people using the language.
0:17:56 > 0:18:01There is this essential mass of people and whatever you do,
0:18:01 > 0:18:05if that mass goes against you, you're going to lose.
0:18:05 > 0:18:07It's an everyday battle.
0:18:07 > 0:18:10Why are people so reluctant to use it?
0:18:10 > 0:18:13It's the feeling of, "Will using Welsh
0:18:13 > 0:18:18"and learning Welsh enrichen me in terms of how I live my life?"
0:18:18 > 0:18:23If we can't persuade non-Welsh-speakers
0:18:23 > 0:18:26that it's important, it's not going to happen.
0:18:26 > 0:18:29The regeneration of the language isn't going to happen
0:18:29 > 0:18:32in the community we're talking about;
0:18:32 > 0:18:35Banc Y Gerwen, Brynamman, Ystalyfera, Ystradgynlais.
0:18:35 > 0:18:40Ron Jones, would you accept that, as somebody who has created jobs?
0:18:40 > 0:18:44I think that so much of it is down to the economy.
0:18:44 > 0:18:47That's why I disagreed with Ffred's version of events.
0:18:47 > 0:18:52I think that the fundamental faults of the economy
0:18:52 > 0:18:55have created a situation in which the language has weakened.
0:18:55 > 0:18:59I don't accept that we don't have a background as a people
0:18:59 > 0:19:03in business and entrepreneurship. I don't think we have lost it.
0:19:03 > 0:19:07It's weaker because we've got a weak economy at the moment across Wales.
0:19:07 > 0:19:10I think Welsh people have innovated over the centuries.
0:19:10 > 0:19:13So they're not going to these middle class, safe jobs
0:19:13 > 0:19:16in the public sector, as we referred to earlier?
0:19:16 > 0:19:20I think, if anything, Welsh speaking Welsh people have missed
0:19:20 > 0:19:25opportunities to create businesses because there are opportunities
0:19:25 > 0:19:32within the public sector and I think that's a recent development.
0:19:32 > 0:19:35I think we've turned to the safe jobs as Welsh speakers
0:19:35 > 0:19:37but I don't think our ability has reduced.
0:19:37 > 0:19:40In that way of working with these communities,
0:19:40 > 0:19:46I think it's in the economy area that we've got the best future
0:19:46 > 0:19:50to look forward to helping the Welsh language.
0:19:50 > 0:19:53Ammanford has lost it because of the coal mines. As simple as that.
0:19:53 > 0:19:55Right, Bethan.
0:19:55 > 0:19:58One of the biggest challenges we face is that people
0:19:58 > 0:20:01can't get easy access to services.
0:20:01 > 0:20:03People try to get the services...
0:20:03 > 0:20:07But even when they are available they aren't used?
0:20:07 > 0:20:10The government or local authorities can't provide full services.
0:20:10 > 0:20:14How can you expect big business that come here...?
0:20:14 > 0:20:17In a radio lecture this week Guto Bebb referred
0:20:17 > 0:20:22to a cash machine in Caernarfon and few people used the Welsh option.
0:20:22 > 0:20:27- The service is there.- But Welsh isn't taken seriously by businesses.
0:20:27 > 0:20:28People don't expect it.
0:20:28 > 0:20:31There's the thought that Welsh service aren't available.
0:20:31 > 0:20:35People don't ask for them because they don't expect to have them.
0:20:35 > 0:20:39One of the weaknesses of language planning over the past few years,
0:20:39 > 0:20:42and I think the Language Board is responsible for this,
0:20:42 > 0:20:45the Government back in the 90s is responsible for this,
0:20:45 > 0:20:50there was this emphasis on creating services in Welsh.
0:20:50 > 0:20:55Of course they had to be available but we have turned it into religion
0:20:55 > 0:21:01rather than making sure Welsh is used in our communities.
0:21:01 > 0:21:05- Is that fair? Made it into some kind of religion?- I'm not sure about that.
0:21:06 > 0:21:10I would agree that the Language Board through their plans
0:21:10 > 0:21:17had shielded businesses especially in the private sector.
0:21:17 > 0:21:21They use the argument that they've got a Welsh service
0:21:21 > 0:21:23but that's just a few signs.
0:21:23 > 0:21:27- Simon, to end this... - That isn't a Welsh service.
0:21:27 > 0:21:29Economy, housing, planning, education.
0:21:29 > 0:21:33Those are the cornerstones that will protect the language
0:21:33 > 0:21:35in our communities.
0:21:35 > 0:21:38We'll turn to one of those next but we'll first have a break.
0:21:54 > 0:21:57Welcome back to Brangwyn Hall in Swansea.
0:21:57 > 0:22:00You're watching a special edition of Pawb a'i Farn
0:22:00 > 0:22:02dealing with the Welsh language.
0:22:02 > 0:22:05There's a lively debate on Twitter, carry on Tweeting.
0:22:05 > 0:22:10Let's have our next question by Ashley Rhys Evans.
0:22:10 > 0:22:11What's your question?
0:22:11 > 0:22:14Lately, there's been an increase in Welsh education.
0:22:14 > 0:22:17Is there any purpose to this
0:22:17 > 0:22:21if the language isn't used in the community outside school?
0:22:21 > 0:22:25We're heading into one of the fields that Simon mentioned earlier.
0:22:25 > 0:22:29There's been an increase in Welsh education.
0:22:29 > 0:22:31Is there any purpose to this
0:22:31 > 0:22:35if the language isn't used in the community outside school?
0:22:35 > 0:22:37Let's start with Bethan Williams.
0:22:38 > 0:22:42It is heartening that there is a rise in Welsh education
0:22:42 > 0:22:45and a lot of time and campaigning by parents
0:22:45 > 0:22:48and groups has made sure that new Welsh schools are built
0:22:48 > 0:22:51and to fight for Welsh education.
0:22:51 > 0:22:56But what doesn't reflect and honour that is that Welsh education
0:22:56 > 0:23:03is provided, but councils that provide education in Welsh,
0:23:03 > 0:23:08don't go on to provide extracurricular activities in Welsh.
0:23:08 > 0:23:12That just confirms that attitude that...
0:23:12 > 0:23:18Are we supposed to depends on councils for leadership?
0:23:18 > 0:23:21If they are providing the extracurricular services
0:23:21 > 0:23:25and they can provide education in Welsh, they should.
0:23:25 > 0:23:27They're just confirming this attitude
0:23:27 > 0:23:30that Welsh is a language for education only.
0:23:30 > 0:23:34Once you're out of education, there we go, you can forget about Welsh.
0:23:34 > 0:23:37But there is room for the Language Commissioner
0:23:37 > 0:23:42to change that and make sure people can use Welsh in the workplace,
0:23:42 > 0:23:44there are more Welsh services to be had out there.
0:23:44 > 0:23:47It is important that we see that.
0:23:47 > 0:23:49Doesn't that concern you?
0:23:49 > 0:23:51We've had Welsh education for at least 50 years,
0:23:51 > 0:23:55but yet in the communities outside those
0:23:55 > 0:24:00it can be a desert for the Welsh language.
0:24:00 > 0:24:04Pupils leave school and it's all over.
0:24:04 > 0:24:08One thing we have been saying is we need establish Welsh
0:24:08 > 0:24:12as an educational skill and then people take Welsh seriously.
0:24:12 > 0:24:16We need to make sure that people receive a Welsh education
0:24:16 > 0:24:19that's relevant to them so they can use it in the real world.
0:24:19 > 0:24:22They should be able to use it in their everyday lives
0:24:22 > 0:24:25not make it something irrelevant.
0:24:25 > 0:24:29Let's turn to the audience members.
0:24:29 > 0:24:31Hefin Matthias, as a former headteacher,
0:24:31 > 0:24:34what was your experience here? Was it disappointing to you?
0:24:34 > 0:24:37No, it was a good thing.
0:24:37 > 0:24:41The fact that children in parts of Wales especially the south east,
0:24:41 > 0:24:43can speak Welsh is a miracle.
0:24:43 > 0:24:47Go back 50 years, I was a schoolboy in Pontypridd.
0:24:47 > 0:24:52Out of 800 boys, about six spoke Welsh.
0:24:52 > 0:24:56Now, there are more than 10 Welsh secondary schools in the south east.
0:24:56 > 0:25:00Thousands of children and the potential to get many, many more.
0:25:00 > 0:25:03How would you respond to Ashleigh's question?
0:25:03 > 0:25:07It's a miracle but what's the point if it isn't used outside schools?
0:25:07 > 0:25:09There is a point.
0:25:09 > 0:25:13If Welsh is going to survive, it has to be a living, urban language.
0:25:13 > 0:25:15To be a living language.
0:25:15 > 0:25:20But is it a living language in communities like the valleys?
0:25:20 > 0:25:24Yes it is. I've been a head teacher there for 13 years.
0:25:24 > 0:25:28It's certainly a living language and there's enthusiasm in the school.
0:25:28 > 0:25:3299% of pupils there come from non-Welsh-speaking families. It's a miracle.
0:25:32 > 0:25:37What's important is that it's the power of people's will that has created this situation.
0:25:37 > 0:25:39What is essential is that county councils
0:25:39 > 0:25:42and especially the Assembly plans for the future.
0:25:42 > 0:25:46As we said earlier, we need to plan ahead rather than depend on others.
0:25:46 > 0:25:50Right. Where were the other hands up? You, in the front.
0:25:50 > 0:25:56It's the same problem for adult Welsh language learners.
0:25:56 > 0:26:02The problem is that when you're out in the community to use your Welsh, there are two problems.
0:26:02 > 0:26:03There are two problems.
0:26:03 > 0:26:06You're using your second language
0:26:06 > 0:26:09and you're trying to find the people and businesses
0:26:09 > 0:26:11that offer Welsh language services.
0:26:11 > 0:26:16Right, that's certainly a problem. You had your hand up.
0:26:16 > 0:26:20There are several, the Welsh language schools are all full
0:26:20 > 0:26:23but the problem is, as that lady said,
0:26:23 > 0:26:28once they are out in the community, they don't have the chance to speak the language
0:26:28 > 0:26:31and the children go home and it isn't a Welsh language environment
0:26:31 > 0:26:34like it was when I was young.
0:26:34 > 0:26:39They don't get that opportunity to use it and that's a problem because children lose confidence.
0:26:39 > 0:26:42Is there an answer? Catrin Stephens, can I ask you?
0:26:42 > 0:26:45Do you see this as a problem, to begin with?
0:26:45 > 0:26:48I'm very pleased about the developments in this region.
0:26:48 > 0:26:51We opened a Welsh language school this year
0:26:51 > 0:26:54and there'll be another one opening next year.
0:26:54 > 0:26:58That's been a massive development and it's great when non-Welsh
0:26:58 > 0:27:01speakers send their children to these schools.
0:27:01 > 0:27:05While the situation stays as it is, with 90% of homes aren't Welsh speaking,
0:27:05 > 0:27:10Welsh is going to be a second language for those people.
0:27:10 > 0:27:12Their mother tongue is English.
0:27:12 > 0:27:15So changing that will be a massive change
0:27:15 > 0:27:18and it requires financial investment.
0:27:18 > 0:27:20I rejoice in the language miracle
0:27:20 > 0:27:22and we need to strengthen our communities
0:27:22 > 0:27:24so they can help these people.
0:27:24 > 0:27:27It's up to us Welsh speakers to do that.
0:27:27 > 0:27:31We heard the other day that the Basque country
0:27:31 > 0:27:34was putting a lot more money behind this area.
0:27:34 > 0:27:36Much, much more is being spent there.
0:27:36 > 0:27:39There's very little investment in the Welsh language.
0:27:39 > 0:27:43But are we using our investment wisely?
0:27:43 > 0:27:46Heini Gruffudd was on television this week saying,
0:27:46 > 0:27:50"Come to Wales to see a country where Welsh isn't being treated properly."
0:27:50 > 0:27:53I think he's talking about Welsh as a second language.
0:27:53 > 0:27:57He's not talking about the Welsh schools which produce Welsh speakers, to be fair.
0:27:57 > 0:28:01They are doing exceptional work. I wouldn't condemn their work.
0:28:01 > 0:28:03Catrin, thank you.
0:28:03 > 0:28:09We have Swansea county councillor in the second row.
0:28:09 > 0:28:12I've been a chair of governors at Llwynderw
0:28:12 > 0:28:16since the school opened but I'm not the chair at the moment.
0:28:16 > 0:28:19I'm extremely pleased when I hear that many of the children
0:28:19 > 0:28:22at the school have non-Welsh speaking parents.
0:28:22 > 0:28:27I was at the school a fortnight ago and I was speaking to the children.
0:28:27 > 0:28:32I asked them whether they spoke Welsh at home and they said, "No."
0:28:32 > 0:28:34"Mum and Dad don't understand Welsh." I
0:28:34 > 0:28:36asked them where they spoke Welsh.
0:28:36 > 0:28:40They said, "I know Mrs Jones who runs the chip shop speaks Welsh."
0:28:40 > 0:28:43It's a good thing that the language lives.
0:28:43 > 0:28:46So it is used, in your experience.
0:28:46 > 0:28:49Tudur Hallam, can I come to you as someone who teaches Welsh
0:28:49 > 0:28:52to students here in Swansea.
0:28:52 > 0:28:55Can we get the microphone to him?
0:28:55 > 0:28:58The growth in the Welsh language is astonishing.
0:28:58 > 0:29:02It's important to remember that's as a result of community language planning.
0:29:02 > 0:29:05There are lessons to be learned for county councils there.
0:29:05 > 0:29:08If you want to see growth in other areas, for example,
0:29:08 > 0:29:12the use made of community swimming pools and other institutions
0:29:12 > 0:29:14controlled by councils, you need to plan
0:29:14 > 0:29:18deliberately for the language, as has happened in education.
0:29:18 > 0:29:21- Do you see this as a problem, in other words?- Yes.
0:29:21 > 0:29:24Schools play a part in our communities.
0:29:24 > 0:29:26We're painting everybody with the same brush.
0:29:26 > 0:29:29I know children who use Welsh outside of school.
0:29:29 > 0:29:31There is positive news as well.
0:29:31 > 0:29:34It's part of the process, producing more Welsh speakers,
0:29:34 > 0:29:37and we need to create opportunities for them to use it.
0:29:37 > 0:29:40The glass is half full. Let's go over to the back row.
0:29:42 > 0:29:45There's no doubt that our schools are producing Welsh speakers
0:29:45 > 0:29:50but can somebody tell me why, oh why,
0:29:50 > 0:29:53once those children are outside the classroom,
0:29:53 > 0:29:57they speak an undecipherable slang.
0:29:57 > 0:30:00And they're not children from non-Welsh speaking homes.
0:30:00 > 0:30:02Does it matter, if it's a form of Welsh?
0:30:02 > 0:30:07No, I was talking about English slang.
0:30:07 > 0:30:12English slang, that's another matter. Delyth, would you like to respond?
0:30:12 > 0:30:16I've never heard anyone saying that their English wasn't good enough.
0:30:16 > 0:30:20But you hear lots of people say they their Welsh isn't good enough.
0:30:20 > 0:30:23I'm sure there are people here tonight who if you asked them,
0:30:23 > 0:30:25"What time does this programme finish?"
0:30:25 > 0:30:28They wouldn't say, "Pum munud ar hugain wedi naw,"
0:30:28 > 0:30:30they'd say, "Twenty five past nine."
0:30:30 > 0:30:35And I'd like to challenge fellow Welsh speakers to always tell the time in Welsh.
0:30:35 > 0:30:38We've been told! Ashleigh, you asked the question.
0:30:38 > 0:30:40I'll go over to your friend in a moment.
0:30:40 > 0:30:42What do you think is the answer?
0:30:42 > 0:30:46I think that too many pupils see Welsh as a formal language
0:30:46 > 0:30:50rather than a language for informal situations.
0:30:50 > 0:30:56I think what we need to do is to change that view of the language.
0:30:56 > 0:30:59What is the problem there? Is English cooler?
0:30:59 > 0:31:03Yes, I think many pupils see it as a cooler language
0:31:03 > 0:31:05to use with friends
0:31:05 > 0:31:08and some people look down on the Welsh language.
0:31:08 > 0:31:11- That's been my experience. - Thanks, Ashleigh.
0:31:11 > 0:31:14I just wanted to elaborate on what Ashleigh said.
0:31:14 > 0:31:19Just that the appetite to speak Welsh isn't there
0:31:19 > 0:31:22because it's portrayed as old fashioned.
0:31:22 > 0:31:26Maybe we need something more modern
0:31:26 > 0:31:31just to make Welsh more of a thing for Welsh speakers.
0:31:31 > 0:31:33More modern where in particular?
0:31:33 > 0:31:37On television? Radio?
0:31:37 > 0:31:40There aren't opportunities on social networking websites
0:31:40 > 0:31:41and things like that.
0:31:41 > 0:31:46- That's what young people do.- Do you use Welsh on those?
0:31:46 > 0:31:50- Yes.- I do.- Right. Over to the back row. The young woman in the back.
0:31:52 > 0:31:55I was born and raised in a Welsh speaking environment
0:31:55 > 0:31:59and I'm lucky enough to have friends I only speak Welsh with.
0:31:59 > 0:32:03Back in school, I was walking on the yard with a friend
0:32:03 > 0:32:06and a boy from year seven came up to us and asked us,
0:32:06 > 0:32:09"Why are you speaking Welsh?"
0:32:09 > 0:32:12We had all been to a Welsh school
0:32:12 > 0:32:14and were at a Welsh school at the time.
0:32:14 > 0:32:18- Did you have an answer for him? - We walked away.
0:32:18 > 0:32:22- There wasn't an answer to that. - Over here, in the white shirt.
0:32:22 > 0:32:25Hello. I work for the Urdd across south Wales
0:32:25 > 0:32:29and I see some very encouraging attitudes from young people.
0:32:29 > 0:32:32I feel as though we need more Welsh speaking youth workers to
0:32:32 > 0:32:35work with young people more closely.
0:32:35 > 0:32:38Through the Urdd?
0:32:38 > 0:32:41Through the Urdd and other movements that work with young people.
0:32:41 > 0:32:45Here we have four young people who live in the area and go to Ysgol Gyfun Gwyr
0:32:45 > 0:32:48and they volunteer at the youth club held in Swansea
0:32:48 > 0:32:50and gives opportunities to young people.
0:32:50 > 0:32:52Young people are positive about the language
0:32:52 > 0:32:56and want these opportunities so we need to work with the sixth form
0:32:56 > 0:32:58to offer opportunities to years seven, eight and nine.
0:32:58 > 0:33:00There are hands up all over the place.
0:33:00 > 0:33:03As the only one here from Ystalyfera, you may contribute.
0:33:03 > 0:33:09I think there's a link between the number of young people moving out of Wales
0:33:09 > 0:33:12and never speaking Welsh again
0:33:12 > 0:33:15and the number of universities in Wales
0:33:15 > 0:33:19that don't offer the options that young people want.
0:33:19 > 0:33:23I personally want to be a vet when I leave school
0:33:23 > 0:33:27and there isn't a single university in Wales which teaches
0:33:27 > 0:33:29veterinary courses.
0:33:29 > 0:33:31Why not go to England to study
0:33:31 > 0:33:34and then come back to contribute to the community?
0:33:34 > 0:33:38Once they go over the border to England,
0:33:38 > 0:33:40there's no reason for them to come back.
0:33:40 > 0:33:44Yes. Excellent, thank you.
0:33:44 > 0:33:48I haven't heard from the panellists. Come on, Ron Jones.
0:33:48 > 0:33:52The story of the Welsh language in the south-east
0:33:52 > 0:33:55and some of our very English-speaking regions
0:33:55 > 0:33:57is a successful one.
0:33:57 > 0:34:04And it's successful because we see the situation improve year-on-year.
0:34:04 > 0:34:08But it'll be a long time before we change these
0:34:08 > 0:34:11communities that these schools are part of.
0:34:11 > 0:34:15Let me use Welsh-speaking Eddie Ray as an example,
0:34:15 > 0:34:19he has sadly passed away but the likable Welshman
0:34:19 > 0:34:24who was chief Executive at a Bridgend factory.
0:34:24 > 0:34:26Eddie was very good
0:34:26 > 0:34:32in that he employed pupils coming out of Llanhari.
0:34:32 > 0:34:35The great tragedy for Eddie was by the time they turned 23,
0:34:35 > 0:34:37they'd lost their Welsh.
0:34:37 > 0:34:40That's the challenge we face in the south-east.
0:34:40 > 0:34:43How do we maintain that connection with the language?
0:34:43 > 0:34:47But the tragedy for Welsh language education for us
0:34:47 > 0:34:51is the way we've allowed Welsh schools to be established
0:34:51 > 0:34:53in areas like the west
0:34:53 > 0:35:00and they kill off the use of Welsh in traditional Welsh schools.
0:35:00 > 0:35:02In Carmarthenshire, for example,
0:35:02 > 0:35:06we've managed to create Welsh schools which are good schools
0:35:06 > 0:35:10but they reduce the responsibilities
0:35:10 > 0:35:13on natural schools in our villages
0:35:13 > 0:35:16to sustain the Welsh language
0:35:16 > 0:35:18as a natural part of their role as educators
0:35:18 > 0:35:20and also as part of the community.
0:35:20 > 0:35:23In the west and north-west, Simon Brooks,
0:35:23 > 0:35:27would you rather see Welsh language schools than bilingual ones?
0:35:27 > 0:35:29Certainly.
0:35:29 > 0:35:33I would argue that our main problem,
0:35:33 > 0:35:36certainly in counties like Ceredigion, Carmarthenshire,
0:35:36 > 0:35:39Anglesey and so on, is that you've got a situation
0:35:39 > 0:35:42where almost everybody is leaving primary school
0:35:42 > 0:35:44able to speak Welsh,
0:35:44 > 0:35:48regardless of whether their parents speak Welsh or not, whoever they are.
0:35:48 > 0:35:52They leave those village schools bilingual.
0:35:52 > 0:35:58They then go to these supposedly bilingual rural schools
0:35:58 > 0:36:01and children from English backgrounds often go
0:36:01 > 0:36:05into English medium education,
0:36:05 > 0:36:08even though they're fluent in Welsh.
0:36:08 > 0:36:10That is a tragedy.
0:36:10 > 0:36:14Maybe their parents want them to learn Physics in English.
0:36:14 > 0:36:17That's possible but we need to approach this
0:36:17 > 0:36:21as a big societal problem.
0:36:21 > 0:36:24The truth is that in the south-east, we've got Welsh schools
0:36:24 > 0:36:26and a Welsh society.
0:36:26 > 0:36:29In west Cardiff, there is a language shift
0:36:29 > 0:36:33going on among schoolchildren from English to Welsh.
0:36:33 > 0:36:36Rod Richards, you can have the last word on education.
0:36:36 > 0:36:41The last word. Are you sure? There we go. Thanks a lot.
0:36:41 > 0:36:44I'm being nice to you. We're short of time.
0:36:44 > 0:36:49With the education situation as it is in Wales,
0:36:49 > 0:36:51where 40% of our children can't read
0:36:51 > 0:36:54to a adequate level at 11-years-old,
0:36:54 > 0:36:58it doesn't matter which language they're learning, to be honest.
0:36:58 > 0:37:01That's the starting point for education policy
0:37:01 > 0:37:05and one of the education policies I'd like to see coming in,
0:37:05 > 0:37:07we tried to introduce it 20 years ago
0:37:07 > 0:37:09and I'm sure many people I know in Plaid Cymru
0:37:09 > 0:37:12now regret having opposed it,
0:37:12 > 0:37:18is getting exceptional schools to run not only secondary schools
0:37:18 > 0:37:23but a cluster of primary schools as well.
0:37:23 > 0:37:27Then you create a community of schools
0:37:27 > 0:37:29which are geographically local.
0:37:29 > 0:37:31Right. That's where we leave education.
0:37:31 > 0:37:33Thanks for your contributions.
0:37:33 > 0:37:36Let's move on to another subject but first, lets take a break.
0:37:36 > 0:37:40Come back to us in Swansea in a couple of minutes.
0:37:53 > 0:37:55Welcome back to Swansea
0:37:55 > 0:38:00where we've dedicated an hour to discussing the state of the Welsh language.
0:38:00 > 0:38:03Let's move on to our next question
0:38:03 > 0:38:06which comes from Llio Wyn in the back.
0:38:06 > 0:38:10This week, the launch of S4C was compared to translating the Bible into Welsh.
0:38:10 > 0:38:13Since then the channel, along with Radio Cymru,
0:38:13 > 0:38:16has been a constant bone of contention.
0:38:16 > 0:38:20How important are they now in terms of maintaining the language?
0:38:20 > 0:38:23Thanks, Llio. In one of those radio broadcasts,
0:38:23 > 0:38:27the launch of S4C was compared to translating the Bible into Welsh.
0:38:27 > 0:38:29Since then the channel and Radio Cymru
0:38:29 > 0:38:32have been a constant bone of contention.
0:38:32 > 0:38:36But how important are they in terms of maintaining the language? Is that their job?
0:38:36 > 0:38:40The old argument is about whether it's S4C's role
0:38:40 > 0:38:43to provide Welsh language services,
0:38:43 > 0:38:45and the same goes for Radio Cymru,
0:38:45 > 0:38:49or whether it's part of a long-term project
0:38:49 > 0:38:53to safeguard the language
0:38:53 > 0:38:56and to help it to prosper?
0:38:56 > 0:39:00From the start I've been of the opinion
0:39:00 > 0:39:02that our broadcasters
0:39:02 > 0:39:07play an important role, and new media providers,
0:39:07 > 0:39:11to be part of this project to safeguard the language as a medium
0:39:11 > 0:39:14and safeguard it as entertainment,
0:39:14 > 0:39:20part of education but also safeguarding the language
0:39:20 > 0:39:24by being part of the Welsh language community.
0:39:25 > 0:39:30I think the challenge in the coming years
0:39:30 > 0:39:35is to ensure that in a totally new system, that that role is taken seriously,
0:39:35 > 0:39:38not only by S4C but also by the BBC.
0:39:40 > 0:39:46They will now be part of the new funding system
0:39:46 > 0:39:50and assessing the value of these things.
0:39:50 > 0:39:54I think this gives us a chance for us
0:39:54 > 0:40:00to reassess the purpose of our public broadcasters.
0:40:00 > 0:40:05I think there is a reason for us to look once again at the priorities
0:40:05 > 0:40:09needed to help these services to safeguard the language.
0:40:09 > 0:40:13I think politicians in London and Cardiff are now ready
0:40:13 > 0:40:18for a mature debate, a much more sensible debate.
0:40:18 > 0:40:24Have we been negligent in the past?
0:40:24 > 0:40:26I think maybe we have lost sight
0:40:26 > 0:40:29of what was the purpose of broadcasters.
0:40:29 > 0:40:36I'd make the same accusation against the BBC for their English services.
0:40:36 > 0:40:41I think there is a need now for us as a small country within
0:40:41 > 0:40:47a large regime like the BBC to look at what we want to do with these
0:40:47 > 0:40:52services in Wales, how are they going to serve a new, young country?
0:40:52 > 0:40:56- So they are still vital, as far as promoting the language.- Definitely.
0:40:56 > 0:41:00- How about you, as chair of Cymdeithas yr Iaith?- Yes, certainly. It's vital.
0:41:00 > 0:41:04We saw that with the S4C campaign,
0:41:04 > 0:41:07how important it was as a service to people.
0:41:07 > 0:41:10Learners came to us, saying it was an important resource,
0:41:10 > 0:41:12Cyw is an important service for children.
0:41:12 > 0:41:19It's visual, it's available to everyone. It's vitally important.
0:41:19 > 0:41:22S4C is missing an opportunity.
0:41:22 > 0:41:25They must be part of the campaign to safeguard their own future.
0:41:25 > 0:41:27One of the things we were calling for
0:41:27 > 0:41:31while campaigning was devolving power for broadcasting
0:41:31 > 0:41:34in its entirety, not just S4C, from London to Cardiff.
0:41:34 > 0:41:39And that the decisions were made there.
0:41:39 > 0:41:41S4C need to be a part of that battle.
0:41:41 > 0:41:44We also argued that S4C needed to reach out
0:41:44 > 0:41:49and be a multimedia provider.
0:41:49 > 0:41:54Cymdeithas yr Iaith are developing our channel. It's pioneering.
0:41:54 > 0:41:58We begin broadcasting online on Sunday.
0:41:58 > 0:42:02- S4C must look at similar projects. - Channel 62, if I remember correctly.
0:42:02 > 0:42:08There's a free plug for you. Rod Richards, where do you stand on this?
0:42:08 > 0:42:14- Where does this quote come from? - Gwyneth Lewis.
0:42:14 > 0:42:19I struggled with this for a while.
0:42:19 > 0:42:24But after thinking about it, yes it is interesting.
0:42:24 > 0:42:26There is a role for S4C here.
0:42:26 > 0:42:33I'm one of those people who is aware that my Welsh is not perfect,
0:42:33 > 0:42:37compared to a number of people, and I always try to think what
0:42:37 > 0:42:45William Morgan said in the Bible and if he said it then it was OK.
0:42:45 > 0:42:52Honestly now, when I watch S4C, although people make mistakes,
0:42:52 > 0:42:59I always listen carefully to people who speak good Welsh.
0:42:59 > 0:43:03You're one of them, of course.
0:43:03 > 0:43:06There's no need for that praise, Rod.
0:43:06 > 0:43:10Bethan Rhys Roberts, Elinor Jones and Huw Llywelyn Davies.
0:43:10 > 0:43:15But there is one point on which I disagree with Huw Llywelyn Davies.
0:43:15 > 0:43:20He insists on Y Cymry Yn Llundain -
0:43:20 > 0:43:24Carwyn James used to say Cymry Llundain.
0:43:24 > 0:43:27And I'm on his side.
0:43:27 > 0:43:30So correct language is important to you. Is that your basic point?
0:43:30 > 0:43:33- It is important.- Right.
0:43:33 > 0:43:37Huw Jones, the chair of the S4C Authority is here.
0:43:37 > 0:43:40Is that something that is a part of S4C's role?
0:43:40 > 0:43:43Promoting and ensuring the future of the language,
0:43:43 > 0:43:48- or are you here to entertain us? - It has to be a little of both.
0:43:48 > 0:43:52There is no doubt that a successful channel has a role to play
0:43:52 > 0:43:57in the process of ensuring the future of the language,
0:43:57 > 0:44:01Bethan has mentioned some of those elements within the current service.
0:44:01 > 0:44:05Ron mentioned the opportunities...
0:44:05 > 0:44:08He suggested that the vision went missing for some years.
0:44:08 > 0:44:12Ron mentioned the opportunity that exists now
0:44:12 > 0:44:17following the changes that have taken place to take another look
0:44:17 > 0:44:21at a number of things and one thing we need to look at
0:44:21 > 0:44:24is the way the channel's success is measured.
0:44:24 > 0:44:28Until now, the measurement, especially when politicians wanted
0:44:28 > 0:44:32to criticise the channel, is the viewing figures and nothing else.
0:44:32 > 0:44:36If that is the only measure of success,
0:44:36 > 0:44:40that drives programme makers in certain directions.
0:44:40 > 0:44:43We know that appreciating programmes is just as important,
0:44:43 > 0:44:49- if not more important.- If a programme has low viewing figures,
0:44:49 > 0:44:54they're going to get rid of it.
0:44:54 > 0:44:59Yes, but what I'm trying to say is the reason for that happening
0:44:59 > 0:45:03is that there is political pressure from outside to use
0:45:03 > 0:45:07the viewing figures to undermine the channel.
0:45:07 > 0:45:11We have also referred to the further contribution the channel makes
0:45:11 > 0:45:14to the language, culture and the economy
0:45:14 > 0:45:20and those measurements have not been acknowledged and accepted.
0:45:20 > 0:45:24We're glad that the Assembly Government is showing
0:45:24 > 0:45:27an interest in broadcasting.
0:45:27 > 0:45:29It's important there is a good
0:45:29 > 0:45:34relationship between the Assembly Government and Westminster.
0:45:34 > 0:45:39Westminster legislates on how our money can be spent.
0:45:39 > 0:45:42Sian Gwynedd... Hold on, Ron. OK, come on.
0:45:42 > 0:45:45My company produces a weekly programme that does not get
0:45:45 > 0:45:52a lot of viewers. It's an English programme.
0:45:52 > 0:45:55It's a good example of what Huw is talking about.
0:45:55 > 0:45:57We make Question Time for the BBC.
0:45:57 > 0:46:01And the BBC is looking at viewing figures of only around a million
0:46:01 > 0:46:04for it to be considered a success.
0:46:04 > 0:46:08And the reason is what Huw referred to.
0:46:08 > 0:46:12That it is appreciated as part of a service that is important
0:46:12 > 0:46:16politically, important as part of the channel.
0:46:16 > 0:46:21- But a million is different to a couple of thousand.- No, it's not.
0:46:21 > 0:46:23Not at all.
0:46:23 > 0:46:28If we make the same assessment of what Sky does, Sky considers
0:46:28 > 0:46:33it a success if they get 50,000 viewers for a rugby match.
0:46:33 > 0:46:36It is the purpose of the programme, who it is aimed at
0:46:36 > 0:46:42and I think what Huw is talking about is vital for the future.
0:46:42 > 0:46:45We must be cleverer in assessing why we measure success in this way.
0:46:45 > 0:46:48We need to find a new way.
0:46:48 > 0:46:53Sian Gwynedd, head of Welsh programming at BBC Wales.
0:46:53 > 0:46:58How do you respond to that? There is a duty to try and promote
0:46:58 > 0:47:03and secure the future of the language, along with everything else.
0:47:03 > 0:47:07I think our main duty is to provide gripping programmes,
0:47:07 > 0:47:09quality programmes.
0:47:09 > 0:47:11Ron Jones mentioned the role in the community.
0:47:11 > 0:47:16Programmes that are relevant to audiences across Wales.
0:47:16 > 0:47:19There is increased competition for viewers and listeners
0:47:19 > 0:47:21and more channels than ever.
0:47:21 > 0:47:24People don't choose to listen to Radio Cymru
0:47:24 > 0:47:29just because it is Welsh. Welsh speakers deserve quality,
0:47:29 > 0:47:33variety and programmes of the same quality that can compete with
0:47:33 > 0:47:38a number of English programmes on other channels.
0:47:38 > 0:47:40You're sat far apart tonight.
0:47:40 > 0:47:46Can we expect cooperation between the BBC and S4C over the coming years?
0:47:46 > 0:47:50Certainly, I think there are all kinds of opportunities.
0:47:50 > 0:47:53One of the important things in general is using these media
0:47:53 > 0:47:58as a way to fire people's imagination.
0:47:58 > 0:48:01We're going back to why people choose to turn to Welsh,
0:48:01 > 0:48:06or away from it. We must be a part of that.
0:48:06 > 0:48:10I hope that working with the BBC will give more opportunity
0:48:10 > 0:48:15for Welsh programmes to be on the BBC Network
0:48:15 > 0:48:19in the future, dramas, it is a great opportunity.
0:48:19 > 0:48:27- Simon Brooks. - I'm glad there's a happy marriage!
0:48:27 > 0:48:32This is a political subject
0:48:32 > 0:48:37because of the amount of money spent on the service.
0:48:37 > 0:48:39It is a significant amount.
0:48:39 > 0:48:42We will need to watch the BBC, not Cardiff, not Sian Gwynedd,
0:48:42 > 0:48:45but the BBC in London,
0:48:45 > 0:48:51to ensure they don't siphon money from S4C over the coming decades.
0:48:51 > 0:48:56We will all need to watch that process.
0:48:56 > 0:49:01But to answer the question, yes, this media is important.
0:49:01 > 0:49:06This is a field where we have been losing significant ground.
0:49:06 > 0:49:11Not only as regards S4C, but also local radio.
0:49:11 > 0:49:13Radio Ceredigion, for example.
0:49:13 > 0:49:18- I think safeguarding that service is important.- Thank you.
0:49:18 > 0:49:24I'm sorry to say our time is up. We will have to have another programme.
0:49:24 > 0:49:28Thank you to the audience and to the panel for our contributions.
0:49:28 > 0:49:31Thank you and good night.