0:00:00 > 0:00:04author and Marxist Gareth Miles,
0:00:04 > 0:00:06Ann Beynon, the director of BT in Wales,
0:00:06 > 0:00:10and Iestyn Davies of the Federation of Small Businesses.
0:00:11 > 0:00:14Give them a warm welcome.
0:00:14 > 0:00:17APPLAUSE
0:00:25 > 0:00:28Good evening and welcome once again.
0:00:28 > 0:00:31After giving up Thursday evenings to others for a fortnight,
0:00:31 > 0:00:34it's good to say that Pawb a'i Farn is back until the end of the month.
0:00:34 > 0:00:39Perhaps we need a rest after that discussion we had about the future of the language.
0:00:39 > 0:00:41Nevertheless, we've reached Aberdare by now,
0:00:41 > 0:00:46and here in the leisure centre we have an audience of people from the Cynon Valley,
0:00:46 > 0:00:51and some also from Pontypridd to the south and Merthyr Tydfil to the north.
0:00:51 > 0:00:55There's no shortage of discussion topics - we received lots of questions, as ever.
0:00:55 > 0:00:59And if you at home want to join in the debate in any way,
0:00:59 > 0:01:01the usual addresses are on the screen.
0:01:01 > 0:01:05Some information before we start - we'll be in Welshpool a week today,
0:01:05 > 0:01:09and then Pwllheli for the last programme in the series.
0:01:09 > 0:01:11Let's go to our first question, then.
0:01:11 > 0:01:15It comes tonight from Gwyn Morgan. Gwyn, what's your question?
0:01:15 > 0:01:17The closure of the Remploy factory
0:01:17 > 0:01:21is the latest blow for the Cynon Valley.
0:01:22 > 0:01:25Work is scarce, especially for young people,
0:01:25 > 0:01:29and Aberdare looks very bleak.
0:01:29 > 0:01:35What hope can the panel offer for an area like this?
0:01:35 > 0:01:39Gwyn, thank you for our first question. A grave one, I must say.
0:01:39 > 0:01:42The closure of the Remploy factory is the latest blow to this area,
0:01:42 > 0:01:49work is scarce, especially for young people, and Aberdare, Gwyn says anyway, looks very bleak.
0:01:49 > 0:01:52What hope can the panel offer, I wonder, for an area like this?
0:01:52 > 0:01:55Can I start with you, Myrddin Edwards?
0:01:55 > 0:01:58Closing the Remploy factory in this area is a huge blow,
0:01:58 > 0:02:03not just this area but South Wales as a whole.
0:02:03 > 0:02:06We've seen recently that the unemployment statistics
0:02:06 > 0:02:09are very high in the Valleys, especially for young people,
0:02:09 > 0:02:12and that's a terrible disappointment.
0:02:12 > 0:02:16- But we're very glad in the Assembly...- Do you oppose the decision?
0:02:16 > 0:02:20- I do oppose it.- Despite the fact the government you support pushed this through?
0:02:20 > 0:02:24Well, we can disagree with what they do at Westminster,
0:02:24 > 0:02:28because I don't think this is a wise and good decision
0:02:28 > 0:02:30in the present time, without many jobs around.
0:02:30 > 0:02:34I don't think the plans around this have been very good.
0:02:34 > 0:02:37But having said that, there are a number of disability charities
0:02:37 > 0:02:41like Disability Wales, MIND, Diversity Cymru and Scope,
0:02:41 > 0:02:46who have said that this is not the best model for disabled people,
0:02:46 > 0:02:49because we don't discriminate against
0:02:49 > 0:02:52or segregate disabled children from other children in the classroom,
0:02:52 > 0:02:55so why do we do it in the workplace?
0:02:55 > 0:03:02- But one thing...- Are you in favour or against? You've seen both sides of the argument.
0:03:02 > 0:03:04Where exactly do you stand?
0:03:04 > 0:03:08What I want to see... This money isn't being cut, there's £320 million, it's not being cut,
0:03:08 > 0:03:13but it's to help disabled people find work,
0:03:13 > 0:03:15but find work in places where they can work with other people,
0:03:15 > 0:03:18to get equality.
0:03:18 > 0:03:22It's a difficult decision, but I want to see people working together,
0:03:22 > 0:03:25and that's what the Assembly's going to try and do now,
0:03:25 > 0:03:31to get those disabled people working with other people in factories and workplaces.
0:03:31 > 0:03:32Ann Beynon?
0:03:32 > 0:03:36The problem we have is that the economy is not flourishing, there's not enough growth in the economy.
0:03:36 > 0:03:39It happens to be that in our sector, telecommunications,
0:03:39 > 0:03:41there is some amount of growth,
0:03:41 > 0:03:45and we've been able to employ extra people over the last 12 months.
0:03:45 > 0:03:49Not a significant number, but some 60 or 70 people.
0:03:49 > 0:03:52- It won't fill the gap... - Where are those jobs, can I ask?
0:03:52 > 0:03:56- They're across Wales. But not in the Cynon Valley.- No, they're not.
0:03:56 > 0:04:00It doesn't mean people in the Cynon Valley shouldn't try for more jobs,
0:04:00 > 0:04:03there will be some amount of jobs coming up over the year to come.
0:04:03 > 0:04:07But what strikes me here is that there's been a lack of planning.
0:04:07 > 0:04:12That is, if there had been talk for some time that the factories were going to close,
0:04:12 > 0:04:15I think it's a shock to everyone how many factories in Wales have closed.
0:04:15 > 0:04:18It's very unequal, how many in Wales have closed.
0:04:18 > 0:04:20- Seven out of nine.- Exactly.
0:04:20 > 0:04:24So I don't see what planning was done to prepare for this.
0:04:24 > 0:04:27They should have been training these people several months in advance,
0:04:27 > 0:04:32and I'd like to see the details of why these seven were chosen.
0:04:32 > 0:04:36I can't believe that the business argument of necessity is strong.
0:04:36 > 0:04:39I feel that there's a secret agenda, and a lack of preparation,
0:04:39 > 0:04:42and things have been done in a rushed way.
0:04:42 > 0:04:44I think it's unfair to say there's a secret agenda.
0:04:44 > 0:04:48I don't know if you're suggesting the Westminster government has a secret agenda,
0:04:48 > 0:04:52because Labour did this back in 2007, and I don't want to blame...
0:04:52 > 0:04:57We tend to blame the previous government, but Labour's hypocrisy is unbelievable.
0:04:57 > 0:05:01They also closed factories in Wales. I don't think it's a secret agenda.
0:05:01 > 0:05:06But that was during a time when things were perhaps better. By now, we're in the middle of a recession.
0:05:06 > 0:05:12Why didn't Labour make sure they moved people out of these silos
0:05:12 > 0:05:15- where disabled and non-disabled people work, why...- Yes.
0:05:15 > 0:05:17That's a fair enough point, Ann Beynon.
0:05:17 > 0:05:21Yes, it is fair, but why then was the decision being prepared,
0:05:21 > 0:05:23and it appears that there was preparation for some time
0:05:23 > 0:05:28- to take this decision, why was there no discussion with charities?- Right.
0:05:28 > 0:05:32And I accept that charities do argue for mainstreaming disabled people,
0:05:32 > 0:05:37- but did a discussion happen with them to help...- Iestyn, you're welcome to discuss that point,
0:05:37 > 0:05:42- but I'm also keen to extend the debate to talk about the Cynon Valley in general. Iestyn.- Certainly.
0:05:42 > 0:05:46And we have to accept the fact, however abhorrent the current situation is with Remploy,
0:05:46 > 0:05:48that the economy needs restructuring.
0:05:48 > 0:05:54I don't think anyone doubts that, if we accept the economic theory we have.
0:05:54 > 0:05:58If you challenge that, well, you're welcome to, but most of us accept the situation,
0:05:58 > 0:06:00that it's difficult and we have to restructure.
0:06:00 > 0:06:03If you want to do that in South Wales Valleys areas,
0:06:03 > 0:06:05or even other areas across Wales,
0:06:05 > 0:06:07we have to develop an indigenous Welsh economy.
0:06:08 > 0:06:14We've been over-dependent on benefits and jobs and investment flowing in from abroad,
0:06:14 > 0:06:21so we have to start again and recreate an economic structure for us in Wales.
0:06:21 > 0:06:24- But you yourself come from the Valleys, Iestyn.- I do.
0:06:24 > 0:06:31Is there any hope for areas like this one, or will the answer be commuting to Cardiff?
0:06:31 > 0:06:35I don't think it's a big problem to travel from Aberdare to Cardiff,
0:06:35 > 0:06:37or even to Bristol.
0:06:37 > 0:06:40- I did that when I lived in Merthyr. - That's acceptable, that's all right?
0:06:40 > 0:06:45- For me, it depends. - You agree with Iain Duncan Smith, down you go then, to Cardiff.
0:06:45 > 0:06:49No, I disagree with Iain Duncan Smith, because he doesn't know the truth of the situation.
0:06:49 > 0:06:52But for us who live in the Valleys, who were raised in the Valleys,
0:06:52 > 0:06:54we do understand that we need to be strong enough
0:06:54 > 0:06:58to raise our pack and say we'll move, because the challenge and the answer is for us,
0:06:58 > 0:07:03and I think the people of Aberdare, Merthyr and the South Wales Valleys
0:07:03 > 0:07:10are prepared to take that challenge and steer their own course.
0:07:10 > 0:07:13Before we come to Gareth Miles, you two on the right,
0:07:13 > 0:07:18the business experts, these companies aren't going to come up to Aberdare, are they?
0:07:18 > 0:07:24They're not. There's a stream, an increase in apprenticeships, for example,
0:07:24 > 0:07:29and skills for young people, that's happening in areas around the capital cities.
0:07:29 > 0:07:32- I'm afraid that's inevitable. - Right.
0:07:32 > 0:07:36- And as someone from Merthyr, I think I can say that. - But there is another way.
0:07:36 > 0:07:39- That is, the possibility that people can work flexibly from home.- Yes.
0:07:39 > 0:07:43That is, a significant number of our workers, they have no office,
0:07:43 > 0:07:44they work from their house.
0:07:44 > 0:07:48But let's get this clear - BT won't bring any jobs to Aberdare.
0:07:48 > 0:07:52We could - you could work for BT and live in Aberdare,
0:07:52 > 0:07:53and work from home.
0:07:53 > 0:07:57You don't have to move to the Cardiff office.
0:07:57 > 0:08:01A lot of people working for us in Wales, a significant number, don't go into an office.
0:08:01 > 0:08:03They can live in Harlech or wherever and work for BT.
0:08:03 > 0:08:07And of course, there's the chance to create a business in these areas,
0:08:07 > 0:08:11- businesses that serve the local economy.- Right. We'll come back to that point shortly.
0:08:11 > 0:08:14Gareth Miles, you come in on this.
0:08:14 > 0:08:22Well, when I saw those people in the Rhondda, I think,
0:08:22 > 0:08:27who'd just been told they'd lost their jobs, and I saw them in tears,
0:08:27 > 0:08:32I thought of the words of Aneurin Bevan about the Tories,
0:08:32 > 0:08:33"lower than vermin."
0:08:33 > 0:08:35And that's what I thought.
0:08:35 > 0:08:41Especially after hearing the hypocritical defence from one of the ministers.
0:08:41 > 0:08:44How are these disabled people going to get jobs
0:08:44 > 0:08:48when it's so hard for non-disabled people to get jobs?
0:08:48 > 0:08:51And that this has happened so suddenly.
0:08:51 > 0:08:53APPLAUSE
0:08:53 > 0:08:56Well, that is, completely plainly,
0:08:56 > 0:09:01Myrddin Edwards's party is part of this coalition that's putting these decisions into action.
0:09:01 > 0:09:04Are you directing that comment to Myrddin Edwards, by your side?
0:09:04 > 0:09:06Of course I am, of course.
0:09:06 > 0:09:09You know, I think it's the only... The answer is...
0:09:09 > 0:09:15That is, this is part of this government's attack on the welfare state.
0:09:17 > 0:09:18In general.
0:09:18 > 0:09:23They're in favour of privatisation, there's an attack on everything that's been won since 1945.
0:09:23 > 0:09:29The only answer is a political answer -
0:09:29 > 0:09:36there are two parties in this area that claim to be the heirs of Keir Hardie,
0:09:36 > 0:09:40and I'd say that the only hope is for people to join those parties,
0:09:40 > 0:09:43and insist that we oppose all these attacks.
0:09:43 > 0:09:46It's an attack on the welfare state,
0:09:46 > 0:09:54and I'm worried that restructuring this anti-proletarian, anti-democratic economy
0:09:54 > 0:09:55won't do much.
0:09:55 > 0:09:58But let's be realistic, we're in a period of economic slump,
0:09:58 > 0:10:03we're in a period of cuts, and that's what this government is trying to put into practice.
0:10:03 > 0:10:06The cuts are happening in response
0:10:06 > 0:10:13to the bankers' rashness and gambling.
0:10:13 > 0:10:19And the trick is, and they're succeeding, not only in London, but throughout Europe,
0:10:19 > 0:10:24is to force the people who didn't cause the problem to suffer.
0:10:24 > 0:10:26The bankers are as rich as ever.
0:10:26 > 0:10:30- It is a problem.- Yes.- A problem for Aberdare, and a wider problem.
0:10:30 > 0:10:31APPLAUSE There we are.
0:10:31 > 0:10:35You have support in the audience. I want to come to you, the audience.
0:10:35 > 0:10:37I see that some of you are eager to get a word in. Iestyn first.
0:10:37 > 0:10:39I agree to some extent with Gareth,
0:10:39 > 0:10:42yes, there are problems with the banks,
0:10:42 > 0:10:45it's important that we come up with a new response
0:10:45 > 0:10:48to the challenge before us in terms of capital
0:10:48 > 0:10:51and money going into the markets,
0:10:51 > 0:10:54but I can't agree that we have to depend on the old theory,
0:10:54 > 0:10:58this old narrative that we have to return to the old systems and the old mindset.
0:10:58 > 0:11:00- You don't think it will work? - It won't. I'm sorry.
0:11:00 > 0:11:06I'd be happy if it did work, but we have to look to the future, and that is a challenge for us all.
0:11:06 > 0:11:09Myrddin Edwards, Gareth said "lower than vermin" about you.
0:11:09 > 0:11:11- Well...- No, not about them, they're a little bit...
0:11:11 > 0:11:15LAUGHTER They're a little bit... A little bit higher.
0:11:15 > 0:11:18The Liberals are servants to the culprits.
0:11:18 > 0:11:22Well, you're quite wrong when you say this is a cut,
0:11:22 > 0:11:26because that budget of £320 million is going to be protected.
0:11:26 > 0:11:30This isn't a cut, it's restructuring.
0:11:30 > 0:11:34- They're not cuts. The budget... - But 270 people... - These poor people, they're...
0:11:34 > 0:11:39They haven't been forgotten, but the Government is going to help them go back into jobs,
0:11:39 > 0:11:42and find jobs for them. It's not like they're saying, "You go."
0:11:42 > 0:11:45- Do you really believe that? - It's not a cut.
0:11:45 > 0:11:48They're lying through their teeth. They're lying through their teeth.
0:11:48 > 0:11:53The thing that concerns me is that I don't agree with the theory, and there are people here.
0:11:53 > 0:11:56Why shouldn't disabled people be just as prepared and able
0:11:56 > 0:12:01to maintain different jobs for themselves as part of the wider economy,
0:12:01 > 0:12:05why shouldn't they be entrepreneurial and start businesses and jobs?
0:12:05 > 0:12:09- That is, there's no need for factories especially for them. - There isn't.
0:12:09 > 0:12:12But I do agree that the timing of this is very bad at the moment.
0:12:12 > 0:12:15You can come back in a moment, this is clearly a hot topic.
0:12:15 > 0:12:18Gwyn Morgan, you asked the question, I'll come back to you first.
0:12:18 > 0:12:24Well, we in the Valleys, our values are in people.
0:12:24 > 0:12:28Erm... People are our future.
0:12:28 > 0:12:37Talk of restructuring the working class is laughable.
0:12:37 > 0:12:44We should restructure the way we support these banks,
0:12:44 > 0:12:50and we should...
0:12:50 > 0:12:54The target is always vulnerable.
0:12:54 > 0:13:02Unemployed people, disabled people, people without any hope.
0:13:02 > 0:13:08They're an easy target, and that's it.
0:13:08 > 0:13:12Yes. What about Aberdare? You describe Aberdare as a bleak place, what about you?
0:13:12 > 0:13:15You contribute on that, if you will.
0:13:15 > 0:13:16Yes, by your side, there.
0:13:16 > 0:13:18MUTTERING Gwyn, come from there.
0:13:18 > 0:13:22Well, no, you know, that's it.
0:13:22 > 0:13:26- The working class is a very easy target...- Right.
0:13:26 > 0:13:31- ..and we should protect ourselves. - All right. Behind you, there?
0:13:31 > 0:13:35On the question of attracting industry to the area,
0:13:35 > 0:13:41economists agree that the Assembly Government has made things worse
0:13:41 > 0:13:46- through getting rid of the industry agency.- The WDA.- The WDA.- Right.
0:13:46 > 0:13:50And economists all agree that that was a mistake,
0:13:50 > 0:13:55because the level of work flowing in for people in Wales has dropped
0:13:55 > 0:13:57worse than in any other area.
0:13:57 > 0:14:00Thank you very much for that. Les Davies.
0:14:00 > 0:14:04It's utterly ridiculous to hear that man from the Dib-Dabs or the Lib-Labs,
0:14:04 > 0:14:07- or whatever they call themselves... - Myrddin Edwards is his name!
0:14:07 > 0:14:11..saying that these decisions aren't cuts.
0:14:11 > 0:14:12Of course they're cuts.
0:14:12 > 0:14:17And not only financial cuts, but essentially, as Gareth Miles said,
0:14:17 > 0:14:19they're cuts to people's lives, to their health,
0:14:19 > 0:14:23to their facilities and their conditions.
0:14:23 > 0:14:27And if there was any kind of plan to the thing, things would have been prepared for these people,
0:14:27 > 0:14:30instead of throwing them to the wolves now.
0:14:30 > 0:14:34And the truth is, of course, although our friend Iestyn there comes from Merthyr,
0:14:34 > 0:14:38it's not fair to say that these disabled people
0:14:38 > 0:14:39can get on bikes, trains and buses
0:14:39 > 0:14:44and compete with non-disabled people to travel long distances.
0:14:44 > 0:14:48- That's the nature of disability - that they need help.- Yes.
0:14:48 > 0:14:51All right. APPLAUSE
0:14:51 > 0:14:53Thank you, Les Davies. Yes? You come in.
0:14:53 > 0:15:01I'd like to extend an invitation to Iestyn to come to Merthyr to see a very successful project
0:15:01 > 0:15:08where many Welsh jobs have been developed in the last year,
0:15:08 > 0:15:14to see Menter Iaith in Merthyr, and see the work social enterprises are doing in the Valleys.
0:15:14 > 0:15:17The picture isn't all negative in Merthyr Tydfil.
0:15:17 > 0:15:20Right, OK, I'm sure Iestyn is listening carefully, and maybe can contribute.
0:15:20 > 0:15:25- Yes, come in, teachers from Rhydywaun.- I'll touch on the subject of disability.
0:15:25 > 0:15:31As a family, I had a nine-year-old nephew, until last year, when we lost Ellis,
0:15:31 > 0:15:34and I'd say, what does this tell us as a society
0:15:34 > 0:15:39about our basic expectations for disabled people?
0:15:39 > 0:15:42These families, who are either raising a disabled child
0:15:42 > 0:15:45or with disabled adults in their family,
0:15:45 > 0:15:48they have to fight for everything,
0:15:48 > 0:15:50and that takes energy and a lot of effort.
0:15:50 > 0:15:54Therefore I agree, they won't get on the train and travel to Cardiff.
0:15:54 > 0:15:56What does this say about us as a society?
0:15:56 > 0:16:00Even in a recession, we should protect the most vulnerable people in our society,
0:16:00 > 0:16:04- and disabled people are part of that.- There we are, your point has been made.
0:16:04 > 0:16:06APPLAUSE Thank you very much.
0:16:09 > 0:16:10Yes, there you are.
0:16:10 > 0:16:15I'm of the opinion that the Assembly has to create some kind of specific strategy for the Valleys.
0:16:15 > 0:16:19The Assembly has managed to transform the Bay,
0:16:19 > 0:16:21millions and millions have been put into the Bay...
0:16:21 > 0:16:24Perhaps it's easier to transform the Bay than the Valleys?
0:16:24 > 0:16:30Well, it might be easier, but I don't see much money coming into the Valleys at the moment.
0:16:30 > 0:16:35I don't see any particular strategy, although everyone says there's a strategy for the Valleys.
0:16:35 > 0:16:42Which brings me back to the point, is it not going to be a place in future where people live,
0:16:42 > 0:16:46but they have to travel, disabled or not, down to the M4 corridor to work.
0:16:46 > 0:16:49But that's not right for everyone, is it?
0:16:49 > 0:16:55You know, it's all right for some, some can and will do it, but that's not the answer.
0:16:55 > 0:16:58Yes? Hands going up everywhere. Gwyn Griffiths, you come in.
0:16:58 > 0:17:01You try getting a train from Pontypridd down to Cardiff to work.
0:17:01 > 0:17:06- It costs significant money to... - But think of how much people travel into London.
0:17:06 > 0:17:09They pay a fortune to do that.
0:17:09 > 0:17:12That's their business, but they earn big money to travel in.
0:17:12 > 0:17:17I knew people who travelled from Southampton to London, you know,
0:17:17 > 0:17:19- and they earned good money.- Yes.
0:17:19 > 0:17:22Things like that, and they got money,
0:17:22 > 0:17:28they got a loan from the BBC in advance, you know, to pay for a season ticket, you know.
0:17:28 > 0:17:33- That is, if you go down... - That belongs to the past, I can assure you.- Maybe it does.
0:17:33 > 0:17:39But if you go down from Pontypridd to Cardiff, and you go on a train that's full, with nowhere to sit,
0:17:39 > 0:17:45- and the place is...- Right. - ..the facilities are terrible, and it costs terribly.
0:17:45 > 0:17:48- But let me get back to...- Briefly, Gwyn.- ..this Remploy business.
0:17:48 > 0:17:53The point is about Remploy is that the factories are successful,
0:17:53 > 0:17:57- they're all... Their order books are full, and they're... You know... - Yes.
0:17:57 > 0:18:00- That is, why is this happening? - Right, thank you, Gwyn.
0:18:00 > 0:18:02Nia, you come in.
0:18:02 > 0:18:05There was a discussion on Radio 2 this lunchtime
0:18:05 > 0:18:09on exactly the same topic we're talking about at the moment, I'll go back to Gwyn's question.
0:18:09 > 0:18:11The woman was talking about her son,
0:18:11 > 0:18:13who didn't just have a job with Remploy,
0:18:13 > 0:18:16but was getting training to go into the general job market,
0:18:16 > 0:18:21and that step will now be lost, too.
0:18:21 > 0:18:26So it's not just providing jobs but also training and chances to move forward to the next step,
0:18:26 > 0:18:29and that won't be available any more.
0:18:29 > 0:18:30Thank you very much, yes.
0:18:30 > 0:18:32APPLAUSE
0:18:32 > 0:18:37Right, two more voices from the audience, if I may, Gethin Wilde, if you come in.
0:18:37 > 0:18:40One thing to mention about development in the Valleys,
0:18:40 > 0:18:45this rhetoric of turning trends back and relocating industry in the Valleys,
0:18:45 > 0:18:49goes against the flow of history, because there have been policies
0:18:49 > 0:18:52in terms of economic development in Wales since the Sixties,
0:18:52 > 0:18:55of moving industries to the border, so we're trying to turn back...
0:18:55 > 0:18:59So you agree with Iestyn, that won't change.
0:18:59 > 0:19:03No, but having said that, that doesn't mean it's justified, either.
0:19:03 > 0:19:07- Right.- And communities in the Valleys, despite the fact that they're suffering,
0:19:07 > 0:19:09are still very united as social units.
0:19:09 > 0:19:13- There we are. Martyn Geraint, in the dullest-coloured shirt here tonight. - Thanks.
0:19:13 > 0:19:17Does it show that politicians don't think of the people?
0:19:17 > 0:19:19As Gwyn said, the people are the important thing,
0:19:19 > 0:19:23and I think politicians forget about people,
0:19:23 > 0:19:26and as Myrddin said, there is money there,
0:19:26 > 0:19:31but if they'd planned in advance, there would be jobs ready for these people straight away.
0:19:31 > 0:19:36Seeing these people in tears was terrible PR, wasn't it?
0:19:36 > 0:19:40Thank you. Now, panel, a brief chance for you to respond to what you've heard.
0:19:40 > 0:19:45- Iestyn. You've had an invitation to visit Merthyr.- I'm looking forward to going back to Merthyr.
0:19:45 > 0:19:48I agree that we have a lack of strategy here, and bad timing,
0:19:48 > 0:19:54which essentially reveals the true thinking of the Westminster government, I agree with that.
0:19:54 > 0:19:57But I also agree that we can't turn back the tide of history.
0:19:57 > 0:20:05I'm sorry. I'd like to have some kind of Tardis we can all go into and go back to other decades.
0:20:05 > 0:20:07- But it's not going to happen. - It's not.
0:20:07 > 0:20:11- Ann?- I think the point of transport is key, because it's important that transport in the Valleys is good,
0:20:11 > 0:20:14and it's not, it's terrible. So it's important that the Assembly has the right to borrow money,
0:20:14 > 0:20:17because that's one project that needs to be funded,
0:20:17 > 0:20:19ands I do worry that things like HS2 get so much money,
0:20:19 > 0:20:22and the money is needed for transport down here.
0:20:22 > 0:20:24Gareth Miles.
0:20:24 > 0:20:31The Remploy factories belong to a time when the principle was co-operation.
0:20:31 > 0:20:34Now... And Britain was poorer in that time than it is now.
0:20:34 > 0:20:40Now, competition is the aim.
0:20:40 > 0:20:44In terms of moving backwards,
0:20:44 > 0:20:47I think this government wants to move backwards.
0:20:47 > 0:20:51It wants to go back to the Thirties and the 19th century.
0:20:51 > 0:20:55- That's what they're trying to do. - The last word to you, Myrddin, if I may.
0:20:55 > 0:21:00Is there a danger, as suggested by some in the audience, that this government will forget about people,
0:21:00 > 0:21:03- especially in areas like the Cynon Valley?- Well...
0:21:03 > 0:21:06I wasn't overly fond of the decision they made,
0:21:06 > 0:21:08and their timing wasn't very good at all.
0:21:08 > 0:21:10But, as I said, the money is there,
0:21:10 > 0:21:14and that money will go to help people get training and go into jobs.
0:21:14 > 0:21:20But then, the point you were making in the question, about young people, in the original question,
0:21:20 > 0:21:24I'm very happy about what we could do in the Assembly as an opposition party,
0:21:24 > 0:21:28was agree with Labour to get 1,800 apprenticeships for young people,
0:21:28 > 0:21:33and so to train them and ensure that when the jobs come, that there are enough people to fill these jobs.
0:21:33 > 0:21:38Right. On that note, thank you very much. A lively start to our programme on the subject of economics.
0:21:38 > 0:21:42Let's move on to the second question of the night from Hawys James. What's your question, Hawys, please?
0:21:42 > 0:21:53In a new book, Heini Gruffudd will recommend learning Welsh with fewer grammatical rules.
0:21:53 > 0:21:59Will that give a real boost to Welsh learners,
0:21:59 > 0:22:03or encourage people to use slang?
0:22:03 > 0:22:05Hawys, thank you very much.
0:22:05 > 0:22:07Here we are, a linguistic topic again,
0:22:07 > 0:22:10always popular on Pawb a'i Farn.
0:22:10 > 0:22:15In a new book, it seems, Heini Gruffudd will recommend learning Welsh with fewer grammatical rules.
0:22:15 > 0:22:19Will that give a real boost to Welsh learners,
0:22:19 > 0:22:22or encourage people to use slang?
0:22:22 > 0:22:27You'd never believe it, you used to be something of an expert in this field, Ann Beynon, years ago.
0:22:27 > 0:22:29- How about it?- I was, I was.
0:22:29 > 0:22:33I did a degree in Welsh, and did research on Welsh grammar in the 16th century.
0:22:33 > 0:22:36And I'm fond of grammar, I'm afraid.
0:22:36 > 0:22:39Do you consider yourself a purist, then?
0:22:39 > 0:22:43Well, in one way I'm a purist, because I like correct Welsh,
0:22:43 > 0:22:47but I also worry about the lack of use of the Welsh language.
0:22:47 > 0:22:52So I'd rather have someone using slang, to be honest,
0:22:52 > 0:22:53than not using Welsh at all.
0:22:53 > 0:22:58And I'm very unhappy when purists criticise people
0:22:58 > 0:23:01whose Welsh is less thoroughbred, or who are learning,
0:23:01 > 0:23:03because that doesn't help anyone.
0:23:03 > 0:23:09And I think we as Welsh speakers, those of us who are fluent,
0:23:09 > 0:23:12yes, we have to keep our own standards up,
0:23:12 > 0:23:16and we have to avoid ever judging people who really are learning.
0:23:16 > 0:23:21- The thing is...- That is, it's better to speak some kind of Welsh...- Yes. - Than none at all.- Yes.
0:23:21 > 0:23:24But also, I have to say, there's a faction of Welsh speakers
0:23:24 > 0:23:26who have good Welsh, but don't choose to use it,
0:23:26 > 0:23:28and they set a bad example.
0:23:28 > 0:23:32They make me angrier than anyone, because it's important that we all,
0:23:32 > 0:23:35when we can speak Welsh, to use Welsh.
0:23:35 > 0:23:39And if people in professional jobs, in public environments,
0:23:39 > 0:23:42choose not to do that, it sends a very negative message.
0:23:42 > 0:23:46Gareth Miles? I don't know where you stand on this, to be honest.
0:23:46 > 0:23:50Well, I think it's important that everyone, in any language,
0:23:50 > 0:23:54speaks the best possible language.
0:23:54 > 0:23:59And to be perfectly honest, I don't see the point of encouraging slang,
0:23:59 > 0:24:05Anglo-Saxon culture has translated that slang.
0:24:05 > 0:24:07I think, if you want to say something of value,
0:24:07 > 0:24:10you have to use polished language.
0:24:10 > 0:24:13So you wouldn't encourage people who are learning to...
0:24:13 > 0:24:17- No, I think everyone should... - What Caryl Parry Jones once called "Slack Welsh."
0:24:17 > 0:24:21Well, say that... No, if people are learning French or German,
0:24:21 > 0:24:25they do their best to speak that language...
0:24:25 > 0:24:29But we're losing huge numbers of learners because, according to Heini Gruffudd,
0:24:29 > 0:24:31our teaching is poor and too difficult.
0:24:31 > 0:24:34Well, I don't know about poor teaching, but certainly,
0:24:34 > 0:24:38perhaps more has to be invested in that, I don't know,
0:24:38 > 0:24:41but, no, I feel that, you know, I agree with Ann, too,
0:24:41 > 0:24:42that in our public life,
0:24:42 > 0:24:51the terrible thing is to hear Welsh speakers refusing to use simultaneous translation facilities.
0:24:51 > 0:24:54The other thing that gets under my skin
0:24:54 > 0:24:56is when first-language Welsh speakers,
0:24:56 > 0:25:00they'll speak slang in Welsh but speak posh English.
0:25:02 > 0:25:06- That...- He hasn't got as much patience as you, Ann.
0:25:06 > 0:25:10It's part of our urban complexities.
0:25:10 > 0:25:13From a business viewpoint, what we're seeing
0:25:13 > 0:25:16is a low take-up in our Welsh services.
0:25:16 > 0:25:18That worries me.
0:25:18 > 0:25:22Even simple things like an ATM, hole in the wall, for the bank.
0:25:22 > 0:25:27It seems only a few use that. And that's so easy.
0:25:28 > 0:25:31Now then audience, how about it?
0:25:31 > 0:25:36I think the learners will love the book.
0:25:36 > 0:25:41While the grammar experts will hate it, maybe.
0:25:41 > 0:25:45The purpose is, to have those who are learning Welsh
0:25:45 > 0:25:49to gain confidence to join and talk.
0:25:49 > 0:25:52That's so important.
0:25:52 > 0:25:56Ann Beynon was saying that the naturally Welsh speaking people,
0:25:56 > 0:26:03well, some of them, they don't speak proper Welsh themselves.
0:26:03 > 0:26:04They aren't trying.
0:26:04 > 0:26:07But is the attitude of someone like Gareth Miles make it harder
0:26:07 > 0:26:10for people in the Cynon Valley to give it a go,
0:26:10 > 0:26:13neglecting some learners and making it difficult for them to carry on?
0:26:13 > 0:26:17That's the problem. Thousands of people start but they don't carry on.
0:26:17 > 0:26:20- No, because it's too difficult. - Because it's too difficult.
0:26:20 > 0:26:24- I learned Welsh myself years ago. - Did you?
0:26:24 > 0:26:29And then I was a Welsh teacher, as a second language, for 38 years.
0:26:29 > 0:26:32I know of all the obstacles.
0:26:32 > 0:26:35Kevin Davies, are you still with Menter Iaith?
0:26:35 > 0:26:37Yes, Rhondda Cynon Taf.
0:26:37 > 0:26:41One thing we do see is the way Welsh is being taught
0:26:41 > 0:26:45asks for so much time and energy from the learners.
0:26:45 > 0:26:51The point being made here is there is a need
0:26:51 > 0:26:54for a simple and basic course at the beginning
0:26:54 > 0:26:59so people can go on to learn it the way it's being taught now.
0:26:59 > 0:27:02The current Welsh classes are quite tied to the classroom,
0:27:02 > 0:27:07you have to turn up to the classes.
0:27:07 > 0:27:09What about this idea of less grammar?
0:27:09 > 0:27:12I'm a strong believer in that, as you know Dewi!
0:27:12 > 0:27:15As someone who has never used grammar properly!
0:27:15 > 0:27:17I've been talking Welsh for 48 years
0:27:17 > 0:27:19and my grammar is all over the place.
0:27:19 > 0:27:22Who are we to criticise people who are learning Welsh?
0:27:22 > 0:27:25There needs to be two tiers of learners, if you like.
0:27:25 > 0:27:28We need this basic level Heini Griffiths was talking about,
0:27:28 > 0:27:32and then move on to the level we're currently offering.
0:27:32 > 0:27:38- Thank you, Kevin. Let's go over here. - I think it's very important.
0:27:38 > 0:27:40I think the most important thing for everyone,
0:27:40 > 0:27:44and we saw this in the last Pawb a'i Farn,
0:27:44 > 0:27:47the use of the language in the community is the important thing.
0:27:47 > 0:27:50But I have to mention Menter Iaith.
0:27:50 > 0:27:52There are many of them across Wales...
0:27:52 > 0:27:55But are people reluctant to use Welsh?
0:27:55 > 0:27:58They feel it isn't good enough?
0:27:58 > 0:28:02- It's all about confidence. - How about the pupils of Rhydywaun.
0:28:02 > 0:28:06It is difficult sometimes when we're learning to remember
0:28:06 > 0:28:10every piece of grammar because we're learning other languages
0:28:10 > 0:28:13such as French. To remember the correct Welsh grammar as well,
0:28:13 > 0:28:16it's a lot for us to take on.
0:28:16 > 0:28:20- Do your teachers correct your Welsh? - All the time!
0:28:23 > 0:28:26Where are the teachers?
0:28:26 > 0:28:29I'll let you come back in in a minute Kevin.
0:28:29 > 0:28:32There has been a problem with Welsh.
0:28:32 > 0:28:37Maybe some people are over emphasising things like mutations.
0:28:37 > 0:28:41- You taught Welsh?- Yes, and there's a way to over-emphasise that.
0:28:41 > 0:28:44I don't want to criticise Heini Griffiths,
0:28:44 > 0:28:48but I remember him telling me that fewer verbs were needed.
0:28:48 > 0:28:51Forgive me, Heini, if you're watching,
0:28:51 > 0:28:55not "I have got a book" but "I've got a book".
0:28:55 > 0:28:58We need to prioritise.
0:28:58 > 0:29:00Over-emphasising mutations isn't prioritising,
0:29:00 > 0:29:03they're on the sidelines which stop fluency and confidence.
0:29:03 > 0:29:05But you have to protect standards.
0:29:05 > 0:29:09You have to stick to the foundation of a language
0:29:09 > 0:29:11and that protects the verbs.
0:29:11 > 0:29:14But it depends on how you do that.
0:29:14 > 0:29:18If you don't protect standards, you will lose understanding
0:29:18 > 0:29:22and when you lose that, you could lose a language.
0:29:22 > 0:29:24Come in.
0:29:24 > 0:29:27I work with some of the pupils who are in the audience tonight.
0:29:27 > 0:29:33I'd prefer to hear them talking Welsh with a few mistakes
0:29:33 > 0:29:37than listening to them speaking Wenglish.
0:29:37 > 0:29:39As Caryl said, better slang Welsh than slick English?
0:29:39 > 0:29:43I understand standards need to be kept
0:29:43 > 0:29:46but I'd prefer to hear more Welsh than Wenglish.
0:29:46 > 0:29:48Kevin, quickly.
0:29:48 > 0:29:52We deal with non-Welsh speaking parents who send their children to
0:29:52 > 0:29:56Welsh schools. They want to learn the language but you try learning it
0:29:56 > 0:29:59when you have two children. You can't give it time.
0:29:59 > 0:30:03Learning a vocabulary, how to say it, and go on from there.
0:30:03 > 0:30:07So you think there's something wrong with the learning process?
0:30:07 > 0:30:09Maybe it's too blinkered.
0:30:09 > 0:30:12Now then, Myrddin.
0:30:12 > 0:30:16I'm sitting between Ann and Gareth here
0:30:16 > 0:30:19but I've got experience in learning a language as I did Spanish
0:30:19 > 0:30:23and French in university and lived in France and Spain for a time.
0:30:23 > 0:30:27The Spanish and French grammar rules are difficult
0:30:27 > 0:30:29but you should persevere.
0:30:29 > 0:30:33When you live in a different country the aim is to speak to someone
0:30:33 > 0:30:37from that country and for them to ask you where you come from
0:30:37 > 0:30:42and for them to think you're local.
0:30:42 > 0:30:48- I was talking to Welsh learners today.- I take it you're a linguist?
0:30:48 > 0:30:50Not many come into that band.
0:30:50 > 0:30:54That's true but I'm going to disagree with myself.
0:30:54 > 0:31:00The development of a language is something organic.
0:31:00 > 0:31:04If something doesn't work in the language we lose it.
0:31:04 > 0:31:08It's evolution.
0:31:09 > 0:31:13When you mentioned verbs, there are ways of forgetting about them
0:31:13 > 0:31:16and we remember the easier versions.
0:31:16 > 0:31:21I think the language will develop naturally for learners.
0:31:21 > 0:31:25- Iestyn, some people call for standards.- No.
0:31:25 > 0:31:28- No standards? - What you need is self-confidence.
0:31:28 > 0:31:32For the children in Merthyr, Aberdare - keep on talking Welsh.
0:31:32 > 0:31:36Don't let it go. There are people in the audience tonight who gave me
0:31:36 > 0:31:39the confidence to speak Welsh as someone
0:31:39 > 0:31:42who came from a non-Welsh speaking background.
0:31:42 > 0:31:47- I nearly lost it due to...- Was there a lack of confidence there?
0:31:47 > 0:31:49Definitely.
0:31:49 > 0:31:53When you come from a non-Welsh speaking background,
0:31:53 > 0:31:57the first thing you lose when you meet Welsh first language speakers
0:31:57 > 0:32:01is the confidence to speak Welsh and to express yourselves.
0:32:01 > 0:32:05Don't ever lose that. Keep on going.
0:32:05 > 0:32:07That's the important thing.
0:32:07 > 0:32:11Grammar, mutations - forget it. Confidence is most important.
0:32:11 > 0:32:13There we go.
0:32:16 > 0:32:20Many thanks to you all. It's time for us to move on.
0:32:20 > 0:32:24Join us after in Aberdare the break.
0:32:39 > 0:32:44Welcome back to Pawb a'i Farn from Aberdare.
0:32:44 > 0:32:47We are having an interesting debate on things.
0:32:47 > 0:32:51Let's move on to our next question asked by Ffion Wyn Jones.
0:32:51 > 0:32:55What's your question?
0:32:55 > 0:32:58After the deaths of six soldiers this week,
0:32:58 > 0:33:01isn't it time for British forces to leave Afghanistan
0:33:01 > 0:33:02as soon as possible?
0:33:02 > 0:33:06Many thanks. After the deaths of six soldiers in one attack this week,
0:33:06 > 0:33:10isn't it time for British forces to leave Afghanistan?
0:33:10 > 0:33:12Let's start with you, Iestyn.
0:33:12 > 0:33:18As a parent with sons the same age as the soldiers who died,
0:33:18 > 0:33:22I'm nearly screaming to take them out.
0:33:22 > 0:33:25It's time for this to be brought to an end.
0:33:25 > 0:33:30But at the same time I understand, unlike Iraq maybe,
0:33:30 > 0:33:35there's a reason to be in Afghanistan.
0:33:35 > 0:33:37We need a long-term plan.
0:33:37 > 0:33:41It's time for the political plan to be made
0:33:41 > 0:33:43so we know what the end game is in this process.
0:33:43 > 0:33:46I don't think that withdrawing the soldiers now would
0:33:46 > 0:33:49benefit the families of the soldiers who have died
0:33:49 > 0:33:56or to the hundreds who have died from the British forces.
0:33:56 > 0:34:00But remember this when you're mourning for these six,
0:34:00 > 0:34:03there are thousands and thousands of Afghan people have died
0:34:03 > 0:34:06whose stories haven't been told on the news.
0:34:06 > 0:34:08It's much bigger.
0:34:08 > 0:34:11The news about the six young soldiers is very sad
0:34:11 > 0:34:17but a sadder story is told about the Afghan people.
0:34:17 > 0:34:20The suggestion is they should leave by the end of 2014.
0:34:20 > 0:34:22Would you stick with that timetable?
0:34:22 > 0:34:27If that is valid, if there's a reason for doing that as well
0:34:27 > 0:34:33and a plan in place to put something back into Afghanistan, then yes.
0:34:33 > 0:34:37If we need to stay there for a longer time, we should do that too.
0:34:37 > 0:34:38Gareth Miles.
0:34:38 > 0:34:43What's the reason for Britain being in Afghanistan?
0:34:44 > 0:34:50It was the need for politicians like Tony Blair to be best friends
0:34:50 > 0:34:52with George Bush.
0:34:52 > 0:34:58- To get rid of al-Qaeda?- To get rid of al-Qaeda? No, I don't think so.
0:34:58 > 0:35:03They were people from Saudi Arabia. Friends of George Bush.
0:35:03 > 0:35:07But weren't they training in the Tora Bora mountains?
0:35:07 > 0:35:09Well, maybe...
0:35:09 > 0:35:13Whatever about that. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't.
0:35:13 > 0:35:16Who can believe what was said?
0:35:16 > 0:35:21Saddam Hussein had nuclear weapons.
0:35:22 > 0:35:27I don't believe them. They lie about the reason why we're there.
0:35:27 > 0:35:33Which army is out there? NATO. The North Atlantic Treaty Organisation.
0:35:33 > 0:35:38Does the North Atlantic stretch right out to Afghanistan?
0:35:38 > 0:35:42So the answer to the question is, to leave as soon as possible.
0:35:42 > 0:35:44Leave as soon as possible.
0:35:44 > 0:35:48How many more families will be in mourning in two years' time?
0:35:48 > 0:35:55How many, how many, how many more 18-year-old boys are going to die?
0:35:55 > 0:35:58How many will come back missing their limbs?
0:35:58 > 0:36:01That's the price being paid.
0:36:01 > 0:36:02Myrddin Edwards.
0:36:02 > 0:36:05I was shaking my head there because I think it's unwise
0:36:05 > 0:36:09to remove them now with the country in such a fragile situation.
0:36:09 > 0:36:13The Taliban still has its grip on the country
0:36:13 > 0:36:16as we've seen during this week with the deaths of six soldiers.
0:36:16 > 0:36:21If we withdraw now and the Taliban is back in control,
0:36:21 > 0:36:25the sacrifice made by these six soldiers
0:36:25 > 0:36:28and the sacrifices made by all the soldiers and people
0:36:28 > 0:36:31in Afghanistan who have died over the years, will count for nothing.
0:36:31 > 0:36:33The Taliban will be back in power.
0:36:33 > 0:36:38I am happy there is a timetable for withdrawal by 2014.
0:36:38 > 0:36:42What the British army, and the French
0:36:42 > 0:36:46and American armies are currently doing are training the Afghan army
0:36:46 > 0:36:49to make sure they can look after themselves.
0:36:49 > 0:36:54There is a long-term plan to make sure the Afghan army can ensure...
0:36:54 > 0:36:59Should we be interfering in this type of situation?
0:36:59 > 0:37:01That's the bigger question.
0:37:01 > 0:37:04What if we let the Taliban come back in Afghanistan?
0:37:04 > 0:37:08Who knows what they'll do if they're back in power.
0:37:08 > 0:37:12They are going to come back. The war is lost.
0:37:12 > 0:37:15The war is lost. They might as well recognise that.
0:37:15 > 0:37:19President Karzai's government is completely corrupt.
0:37:19 > 0:37:21They're completely corrupt.
0:37:21 > 0:37:24Why are you asking for the sacrifice of these young people
0:37:24 > 0:37:27- Would you send your own children there?- Ann Beynon.
0:37:27 > 0:37:30After reading the books written by Khaled Hosseini
0:37:30 > 0:37:34who is an author from Afghanistan, and the way he describes
0:37:34 > 0:37:38the lives of people there especially the women, is heartbreaking.
0:37:38 > 0:37:40It is truly heartbreaking.
0:37:40 > 0:37:43I don't think we can withdraw troops from there immediately,
0:37:43 > 0:37:45we have to have a plan in place.
0:37:45 > 0:37:48I agree with Gareth that the government there is corrupt.
0:37:48 > 0:37:51It isn't a responsible government.
0:37:51 > 0:37:53My biggest fear is we'll end up being in the same situation
0:37:53 > 0:37:56as we were in Iraq.
0:37:56 > 0:38:00Nouri al-Maliki in Iraq is a close friend of Ahmadinejad in Iran.
0:38:00 > 0:38:04After fighting a war and putting someone in place...
0:38:04 > 0:38:07So, what's the point of staying there?
0:38:07 > 0:38:09It's important we learn lessons.
0:38:09 > 0:38:12If we leave there in 30 months,
0:38:12 > 0:38:15we have to make sure what's left behind is fair.
0:38:15 > 0:38:17- Are you convinced that's going to happen?- No!
0:38:17 > 0:38:22I'm not confident it will be fair system. I'm not confident at all.
0:38:22 > 0:38:25I am concerned that we will have wasted some time
0:38:25 > 0:38:27and that's heartbreaking.
0:38:27 > 0:38:31But I don't think that a quick withdrawal will help anyone.
0:38:31 > 0:38:36I think the Taliban will come back in power and kill people/
0:38:36 > 0:38:38How about someone from the audience?
0:38:38 > 0:38:43If we stay there until 2014 or even longer than that,
0:38:43 > 0:38:47how can we be sure the Taliban won't wait until then?
0:38:47 > 0:38:54What kind of plans are in place to rid Afghanistan of them by then?
0:38:54 > 0:38:58I can't see there are any. The plans don't exist.
0:38:58 > 0:39:02- So the soldiers might as well leave? - Exactly.- You in the back.
0:39:02 > 0:39:05We'll never beat the Taliban.
0:39:05 > 0:39:10- In 50 years' time, they'll still be there. What are we to do?- No point?
0:39:10 > 0:39:14Are we going to stay there for another 50 years?
0:39:14 > 0:39:17Many thanks. Ffion, you asked the question.
0:39:17 > 0:39:20Let's have the microphone down there.
0:39:20 > 0:39:23I'd like to emphasise the fact that the withdrawal of troops
0:39:23 > 0:39:25will help other families.
0:39:25 > 0:39:28I have a cousin out in Afghanistan
0:39:28 > 0:39:31and his mother is worried every night that he's going to be killed
0:39:31 > 0:39:34or something's going to happen to him.
0:39:34 > 0:39:38It's important for us to help and support the families
0:39:38 > 0:39:42of these soldiers rather than worrying when they're leaving.
0:39:42 > 0:39:49- To make sure other soldiers aren't killed, you want them all home?- Yes.
0:39:49 > 0:39:52- How about you?- I've got a bit of experience in this field.
0:39:52 > 0:39:55I was in the RAF for eight years in the '60s.
0:39:55 > 0:39:59I was out in Aden, in Yemen.
0:40:00 > 0:40:04We have talked about Iraq and Afghanistan
0:40:04 > 0:40:06but how many people remember Aden?
0:40:06 > 0:40:14We lost as many men and women out in Aden as they did in Iraq.
0:40:14 > 0:40:18We need to leave Afghanistan, we have to talk to the Taliban.
0:40:18 > 0:40:19Terrorism works.
0:40:22 > 0:40:26George Austin. Hywel Price, you can have the last word.
0:40:26 > 0:40:30I think the deaths of these six has struck home with society.
0:40:30 > 0:40:35Historically, Britain has failed for centuries in Afghanistan,
0:40:35 > 0:40:36since the 19th century.
0:40:36 > 0:40:38Russia failed in the 1980s.
0:40:38 > 0:40:43It's obvious proof that every campaign in Afghanistan fails.
0:40:43 > 0:40:49Even the opium crop, and the efforts to stop the spread of heroin,
0:40:49 > 0:40:53they grow huge quantities of that, the whole thing is a mess.
0:40:53 > 0:40:56- So you think we should withdraw? - Definitely.
0:40:56 > 0:40:59Hywel Price, the headmaster of Ysgol Rhydywaun, thank you.
0:40:59 > 0:41:02Join us again in Aberdare in two minutes after this short break.
0:41:15 > 0:41:18Welcome back. It's nice to have your company on this Thursday evening
0:41:18 > 0:41:21and thank you for all of your contributions on Twitter.
0:41:21 > 0:41:23Let's move on to the next question.
0:41:23 > 0:41:26We've heard from him a few times already this evening.
0:41:26 > 0:41:28Les Davies, what's your question.
0:41:28 > 0:41:30The plans to restructure the electoral boundaries
0:41:30 > 0:41:33of the Cynon Valley are ridiculous
0:41:33 > 0:41:37because they ignore history and social patterns.
0:41:37 > 0:41:40What's the panels' opinion?
0:41:40 > 0:41:44This question came up several times so it's obviously something
0:41:44 > 0:41:47that's angering you here in the Cynon Valley.
0:41:47 > 0:41:50What's the problem, Les? Can you elaborate?
0:41:50 > 0:41:54The plans here by the Liberal Democrats
0:41:54 > 0:41:57are unnecessary and artificial.
0:41:57 > 0:42:01The plan is to split the Cynon Valley into three parts.
0:42:01 > 0:42:05The highest part, the north, the head, will be a gift to Merthyr.
0:42:05 > 0:42:11The bottom, the feet, as it were, will be a gift to Pontypridd.
0:42:11 > 0:42:14The middle, the body, will be a gift to the Rhondda.
0:42:14 > 0:42:15So we're disappearing.
0:42:15 > 0:42:19I don't want to be disrespectful, but why not?
0:42:19 > 0:42:23Because it goes against the guidelines and the rationalism
0:42:23 > 0:42:27of the entire plan, even the guidelines of the commission itself.
0:42:27 > 0:42:31But we need larger constituencies. Something has to give.
0:42:31 > 0:42:34According to the Liberals, but nobody else thinks that,
0:42:34 > 0:42:37especially now when those who strongly support the union
0:42:37 > 0:42:40see that there's a problem with that union,
0:42:40 > 0:42:43with Scotland going in that direction.
0:42:43 > 0:42:45And what these Liberals are suggesting
0:42:45 > 0:42:48is a reduction in Welsh representation.
0:42:48 > 0:42:51I would argue that it's very untimely and unnecessary.
0:42:51 > 0:42:53Let's start with you Myrddin.
0:42:53 > 0:42:56There was a reference to the Liberals there.
0:42:56 > 0:43:00If you feel so strongly against this, you have an opportunity,
0:43:00 > 0:43:05as a member of the public, to talk in this commission.
0:43:05 > 0:43:09It is travelling around Wales. This decision hasn't been settled.
0:43:09 > 0:43:13What this independent commission is doing is looking at the boundaries.
0:43:13 > 0:43:15It's not being led by the Government.
0:43:15 > 0:43:18Do you sympathise with Les?
0:43:18 > 0:43:21I don't live in the area, but if you feel so strongly,
0:43:21 > 0:43:24you need to talk to this commission that's travelling around Wales,
0:43:24 > 0:43:27listening to people like you saying this.
0:43:27 > 0:43:32- Everyone is already.- Good, and I hope the commission listens to you.
0:43:32 > 0:43:35Ann Beynon, do you have any sympathy? Why does it matter?
0:43:35 > 0:43:37Regional pride is important.
0:43:37 > 0:43:42If people in this area feel strongly about their identity as a region,
0:43:42 > 0:43:44I can understand the emotion...
0:43:44 > 0:43:48But what if that region has too few voters?
0:43:48 > 0:43:51There are several aspects of public life in Wales
0:43:51 > 0:43:55that could be smaller, for example the number of councillors.
0:43:55 > 0:43:58I think we have too many local authorities.
0:43:58 > 0:44:01Work is ongoing to try and get them to cooperate.
0:44:01 > 0:44:04I understand that's easier than expensive restructuring.
0:44:04 > 0:44:08So the tendency is to share services to reduce numbers
0:44:08 > 0:44:11because we are three million people
0:44:11 > 0:44:13and there are too many representatives.
0:44:13 > 0:44:17And also, the Assembly is getting stronger in Cardiff.
0:44:17 > 0:44:19That's a very good point.
0:44:19 > 0:44:23And also, Hirwaun has always been a part of Merthyr, in my view!
0:44:23 > 0:44:25That's another important thing to remember.
0:44:25 > 0:44:29However, we're much too territorial in Wales.
0:44:29 > 0:44:34- History is an important thing. - Les says community is important.
0:44:34 > 0:44:38There will still be a community in the Cynon Valley
0:44:38 > 0:44:41and the history and heritage of the Cynon Valley will still exist,
0:44:41 > 0:44:43as it does in Merthyr.
0:44:43 > 0:44:46But we have to look to the future.
0:44:46 > 0:44:50What this has emphasised is that the Assembly is the best forum
0:44:50 > 0:44:57to understand the community needs of areas like Merthyr and Aberdare.
0:44:57 > 0:45:01For me, this puts Westminster back to one side
0:45:01 > 0:45:04and pushes it to the sidelines.
0:45:04 > 0:45:05Gareth Miles?
0:45:05 > 0:45:09The idea of connecting a part of the Cynon Valley
0:45:09 > 0:45:12with the Rhondda Valley seems very odd to me.
0:45:12 > 0:45:15- Because there's a mountain between them?- There is that.
0:45:15 > 0:45:18It makes me think of what happened in Africa
0:45:18 > 0:45:23when the imperial countries split that continent up
0:45:23 > 0:45:24and drew straight lines
0:45:24 > 0:45:29without considering the feelings of local people,
0:45:29 > 0:45:31or geographic or community differences.
0:45:31 > 0:45:34Les Davies, you're part of Rhondda Cynon Taff,
0:45:34 > 0:45:38why not be a part of a different constituency?
0:45:38 > 0:45:41Rhondda Cynon Taff is a bit of a nightmare as well!
0:45:41 > 0:45:46I agree with the man from Merthyr. Our links are with Merthyr.
0:45:46 > 0:45:49The Catholic children of Aberdare go to Merthyr.
0:45:49 > 0:45:52Merthyr's Welsh speaking children come to Aberdare.
0:45:52 > 0:45:56We're not arguing in favour of change by challenging these plans,
0:45:56 > 0:45:58but the kinds of changes being suggested.
0:45:58 > 0:46:01Thank you. We have to hurry but I want to get this final question in.
0:46:01 > 0:46:04It comes from Sarah Crowley.
0:46:04 > 0:46:07Does the panel believe the custom of wearing a tie
0:46:07 > 0:46:09will disappear in the next few years?
0:46:09 > 0:46:14Does the panel believe the custom of wearing a tie
0:46:14 > 0:46:18will disappear in the next few years?
0:46:18 > 0:46:19Ann Beynon?
0:46:21 > 0:46:24I've already decided not to wear a tie!
0:46:24 > 0:46:26It's odd,
0:46:26 > 0:46:30the only thing men can wear that shows their character is a tie.
0:46:30 > 0:46:36It's just a bit of material. It doesn't make sense to me. Why a tie?
0:46:36 > 0:46:38But if the tie disappears,
0:46:38 > 0:46:41I'd like to see men wearing more colourful clothes
0:46:41 > 0:46:43and bring colours back.
0:46:43 > 0:46:46It's very boring. All these men are in dark clothes, and so am I.
0:46:46 > 0:46:50Let's have a camera on Martin Geraint this minute!
0:46:50 > 0:46:53That's the future. Martin Geraint is the future!
0:46:53 > 0:46:56Do you honestly see me presenting Pawb a'i Farn in a shirt like that?
0:46:56 > 0:46:58In 10 years!
0:46:58 > 0:47:01- Myrddin, you're obviously a tie man. - I am. Ann has a good point.
0:47:01 > 0:47:05It's the only way we can show our personality.
0:47:05 > 0:47:08I'm not sure if the audience can see my socks but I have pink socks on!
0:47:08 > 0:47:11So Ann has a good point but I don't want to lose the tie.
0:47:11 > 0:47:16Someone in the audience has the same tie as me
0:47:16 > 0:47:20so we obviously have the same sort of character.
0:47:20 > 0:47:23You're the only man on the panel without a tie, Gareth Miles.
0:47:23 > 0:47:26- Is that some kind of statement?- No.
0:47:26 > 0:47:30If I was wearing a suit, I'd be wearing a tie.
0:47:30 > 0:47:37I would never wear a tie with the kind of clothes I'm wearing now.
0:47:37 > 0:47:43I don't like seeing politicians who try to dress down
0:47:43 > 0:47:45with a suit but no tie.
0:47:45 > 0:47:47That's it. We've run out of time.
0:47:47 > 0:47:51I'll continue to wear a tie, that's for sure!
0:47:51 > 0:47:55From Aberdare, thank you for watching. Goodbye.