0:00:24 > 0:00:26On our panel tonight in Pwllheli,
0:00:26 > 0:00:29the lecturer, musician and columnist, Rhys Mwyn.
0:00:29 > 0:00:32The journalist, Bethan Jones Parry.
0:00:32 > 0:00:36Plaid Cymru Assembly Member, Alun Ffred Jones.
0:00:36 > 0:00:39And the Mayor of Pwllheli, Mike Parry.
0:00:39 > 0:00:42- Please give them a warm welcome. - APPLAUSE
0:00:50 > 0:00:54Good evening, and welcome to the programme.
0:00:54 > 0:00:56It's good to have your company once again.
0:00:56 > 0:01:00This is the last in the series of Pawb a'i Farn.
0:01:00 > 0:01:02The journey is over. From Amlwch to Swansea,
0:01:02 > 0:01:06thank you to everyone who has contributed to the series.
0:01:06 > 0:01:09And in an age of change, I'm glad to say Pawb a'i Farn
0:01:09 > 0:01:13will definitely return next winter.
0:01:13 > 0:01:16But tonight, we are in Pwllheli.
0:01:16 > 0:01:21And as you'd expect, local people are ready to have their say tonight
0:01:21 > 0:01:23at Dwyfor Leisure Centre.
0:01:23 > 0:01:26I hope we have an hour of interesting discussion.
0:01:26 > 0:01:29As usual, you can get in touch with us this evening.
0:01:29 > 0:01:32Our contact details are on the screen.
0:01:32 > 0:01:38Please get in touch if you want Pawb a'i Farn to visit your home town.
0:01:38 > 0:01:41That's more than enough from me.
0:01:41 > 0:01:47Let's get our first question from Elfed Wyn Morgan.
0:01:47 > 0:01:50David Cameron said yesterday's budget
0:01:50 > 0:01:52was a good one for the economy
0:01:52 > 0:01:55and fair for everyone in Britain.
0:01:55 > 0:01:58What does the panel think?
0:01:58 > 0:02:01Thank you for the first question of the evening.
0:02:01 > 0:02:03David Cameron said yesterday's Budget
0:02:03 > 0:02:04was a good one for the economy
0:02:04 > 0:02:06and fair for everyone in Britain.
0:02:06 > 0:02:08What is the panel's opinion?
0:02:08 > 0:02:11Let's start with the professional politician on the panel,
0:02:11 > 0:02:14Alun Ffred Jones.
0:02:14 > 0:02:18I think it was very unfair. I think it's almost immoral.
0:02:18 > 0:02:24He is taking £3 billion from pensioners
0:02:24 > 0:02:29who have worked to get a second pension,
0:02:29 > 0:02:31not the poorest ones.
0:02:31 > 0:02:34He has taken £3 billion from them
0:02:34 > 0:02:38and he will give that money to people who earn more than £150,000.
0:02:38 > 0:02:41I don't think that is reasonable or fair,
0:02:41 > 0:02:46particularly in the current economic climate.
0:02:46 > 0:02:50I have also got to criticise George Osborne,
0:02:50 > 0:02:53because he has gone against everything he said he would do.
0:02:53 > 0:02:57He said he wanted to do two things. Get rid of the massive debt
0:02:57 > 0:02:58created by Labour,
0:02:58 > 0:03:02and the second was to promote economic growth.
0:03:02 > 0:03:05But he has failed in both matters.
0:03:05 > 0:03:08- The debt is still very high. - Failed so far, maybe.
0:03:08 > 0:03:13After two years, I think it is fair to ask if the measures are working.
0:03:13 > 0:03:15The debt is coming down slowly,
0:03:15 > 0:03:18but we are still borrowing a lot more than we should.
0:03:18 > 0:03:20He also said there would be an increase
0:03:20 > 0:03:23from 2.5% to 3% this year,
0:03:23 > 0:03:26- but it is less than 1% this year. - But there is an increase.
0:03:26 > 0:03:28There is an increase.
0:03:28 > 0:03:30There's an increase of just under 1%.
0:03:30 > 0:03:33He said it would be 2.5% - 3%.
0:03:33 > 0:03:35His policies are failing at the moment,
0:03:35 > 0:03:38and I don't think he can avoid that.
0:03:38 > 0:03:41There are also other issues relating to the Budget.
0:03:41 > 0:03:43I would draw attention to two things.
0:03:43 > 0:03:48He is still looking for £10 billion in benefits.
0:03:48 > 0:03:54Those of us who receive benefits would face further cuts.
0:03:54 > 0:03:59And the biggest risk to Wales is regional pay.
0:03:59 > 0:04:03- That is the greatest threat. - I might return to that later.
0:04:03 > 0:04:08Bethan, is this Budget unfair, as Alun Ffred suggests?
0:04:08 > 0:04:12Yes, I think it has been quite an unfair Budget.
0:04:12 > 0:04:16But what surprises me most is the wider context,
0:04:16 > 0:04:20and the more general messages that are being put across.
0:04:20 > 0:04:22It is not a fair Budget
0:04:22 > 0:04:27because I don't feel we're being treated fairly.
0:04:27 > 0:04:35Having listened to what he decided to do for pensioners,
0:04:35 > 0:04:37it reminded me of Tony Blair.
0:04:37 > 0:04:42He said it was like dealing with Rottweilers on speed.
0:04:42 > 0:04:46It is a very dangerous political move.
0:04:46 > 0:04:49That surprises me.
0:04:49 > 0:04:52But shouldn't they make a contribution to the economic crisis?
0:04:52 > 0:04:57A tremendous amount of people have been careful over the years.
0:04:57 > 0:05:03They have been looking forward to spending this time,
0:05:03 > 0:05:06enjoying their savings.
0:05:06 > 0:05:10You can't tell me that the amount they're getting is fair.
0:05:10 > 0:05:13But they're not going to lose that much.
0:05:13 > 0:05:17There is going to be an increase in the pension.
0:05:17 > 0:05:20And we must remember that people are living a lot longer.
0:05:20 > 0:05:23There's a group of pensioners,
0:05:23 > 0:05:26especially those with a second pension, who will be at a loss.
0:05:26 > 0:05:30What's worse is that it's one thing to ask for a contribution from them,
0:05:30 > 0:05:34but another to give it to people who earn £150,000 a year.
0:05:34 > 0:05:38- They keep penalising the same people. - What do you think, Mike Parry?
0:05:38 > 0:05:44I am approaching retirement age.
0:05:44 > 0:05:50But I am definitely part of the baby boom generation.
0:05:50 > 0:05:53We will suffer in the years to come.
0:05:53 > 0:05:55So, has this angered you?
0:05:55 > 0:05:59I think they will bring in £1.2 billion from us
0:05:59 > 0:06:03within the next five years.
0:06:03 > 0:06:08It doesn't matter how you dress that up.
0:06:08 > 0:06:11It makes you think.
0:06:11 > 0:06:14Bethan mentioned savings and so on.
0:06:14 > 0:06:19I visited a residential home in Anglesey last week.
0:06:19 > 0:06:25Fortunately, or unfortunately, that is where many of us end up.
0:06:25 > 0:06:27The owner said something interesting.
0:06:27 > 0:06:33She said, "Is there any point saving our money?
0:06:33 > 0:06:35"Everyone gets the same treatment."
0:06:35 > 0:06:38Two beds, one hasn't done anything,
0:06:38 > 0:06:40the other has worked throughout their life,
0:06:40 > 0:06:43and the government wants to take everything away from you.
0:06:43 > 0:06:46That's the way it works, unfortunately.
0:06:46 > 0:06:49Are you saying it's better to spend it?
0:06:49 > 0:06:50Well, you're no worse off.
0:06:50 > 0:06:53What about good for the economy and fair on everyone?
0:06:53 > 0:06:57They are talking about regional pay.
0:06:57 > 0:07:02The average in Wales is around £2,000 less per year
0:07:02 > 0:07:05than the UK average.
0:07:05 > 0:07:07This would make things worse.
0:07:07 > 0:07:11- Rhys Mwyn? - If there's anything good in this,
0:07:11 > 0:07:13if they do anger the pensioners,
0:07:13 > 0:07:17they might be sensible enough next time not to vote for the Tories.
0:07:17 > 0:07:22I feel that whatever the Tories do, we have to oppose them.
0:07:22 > 0:07:23I remember Margaret Thatcher.
0:07:23 > 0:07:27It is a fair budget if you are a millionaire.
0:07:27 > 0:07:29If you earn over £150,000...
0:07:29 > 0:07:32What about all those people who won't have to pay income tax?
0:07:32 > 0:07:36The threshold will be around £9,000.
0:07:36 > 0:07:39Those who earn £150,000 a year
0:07:39 > 0:07:42and don't pay 50 pence in the pound,
0:07:42 > 0:07:48they could be around £40,000 better off.
0:07:48 > 0:07:50That's more than our annual salary.
0:07:50 > 0:07:54George Osbourne said it wasn't working as a tax.
0:07:54 > 0:07:58If that's the case, it's because people are cheating the system.
0:07:58 > 0:08:02That's how they end up not paying.
0:08:02 > 0:08:05That is a strong word. It can also be illegal.
0:08:05 > 0:08:08Most of us don't have a choice. You pay tax and that is it.
0:08:08 > 0:08:11If you don't pay, you're in trouble.
0:08:11 > 0:08:15These people can employ very clever solicitors and lawyers
0:08:15 > 0:08:17and avoid paying it.
0:08:17 > 0:08:20He claims only £100 million is coming in.
0:08:20 > 0:08:25But there are 300,000 families who will benefit from the change.
0:08:25 > 0:08:30And that is the message in each programme I've listened to today.
0:08:30 > 0:08:34The big question is, what is going to happen now?
0:08:34 > 0:08:39The wealthiest people will be able to invest their money
0:08:39 > 0:08:42in ways to protect their finances.
0:08:42 > 0:08:47Something people at the bottom of the list are unable to do.
0:08:47 > 0:08:50- Rhys, I interrupted you. - There is another point.
0:08:50 > 0:08:55Wages have been frozen in the public sector.
0:08:55 > 0:08:59It is one thing to freeze wages,
0:08:59 > 0:09:02but the cost of living is going up all the time.
0:09:02 > 0:09:04This is the first time people...
0:09:04 > 0:09:07Yes, we are being paid a wage,
0:09:07 > 0:09:10but for the first time, we are finding it difficult.
0:09:10 > 0:09:13They said we are all in this together,
0:09:13 > 0:09:16but now they have shown their true colours.
0:09:16 > 0:09:18I'm not surprised by that.
0:09:18 > 0:09:22In regards to the local element,
0:09:22 > 0:09:25if they want to introduce regional pay,
0:09:25 > 0:09:31they should look at something like the cost of fuel in a regional way.
0:09:31 > 0:09:39People in rural Wales have no choice but to use a lot of fuel.
0:09:39 > 0:09:43The fact he has chosen not to do anything about the price of fuel
0:09:43 > 0:09:47and not even attempting to examine the tax from that,
0:09:47 > 0:09:49once again shows his priorities.
0:09:49 > 0:09:54We all know that people who live in rural areas have to have a car.
0:09:54 > 0:09:58We'll come back to some of those points. Elfed, what do you think?
0:09:58 > 0:10:01I work in the public sector.
0:10:01 > 0:10:05I also have to travel a long way to work every day.
0:10:05 > 0:10:08How long does that take you?
0:10:08 > 0:10:12At least three quarters of an hour.
0:10:12 > 0:10:14Fuel is very expensive.
0:10:14 > 0:10:19They have also frozen public sector wages.
0:10:19 > 0:10:25I can see that I'll have to get up at 6am and not finish until 6pm.
0:10:25 > 0:10:27It's quite a day.
0:10:27 > 0:10:30You must see that as being very unfair. Your hand is in the air.
0:10:30 > 0:10:36As a student, there are no jobs out there.
0:10:36 > 0:10:38When you come to the end of your degree,
0:10:38 > 0:10:42you have got to ask yourself what you're going to do.
0:10:42 > 0:10:45You either have to stay in education
0:10:45 > 0:10:48and look for bursaries
0:10:48 > 0:10:52rather than going for the job you want.
0:10:52 > 0:10:56And with the welfare reform,
0:10:56 > 0:11:00that is going to have a significant effect.
0:11:00 > 0:11:05Everyone seems to be suffering, apart from the wealthiest people.
0:11:05 > 0:11:08Yes. Gareth Jones.
0:11:08 > 0:11:11Regarding the 50p tax rate,
0:11:11 > 0:11:14it is going to come down to 45p.
0:11:14 > 0:11:18I think they will pay it on even less in the future.
0:11:18 > 0:11:25If they earn £150, they will have to pay on £140 by a year April.
0:11:25 > 0:11:27They will get even more money.
0:11:27 > 0:11:29Right. So, do you think it's a fair Budget?
0:11:29 > 0:11:32- You're not complaining? - No, I'm not complaining.
0:11:32 > 0:11:35Right. Where else did I see a hand in the air?
0:11:35 > 0:11:38Can I come back to you about the regional pay?
0:11:38 > 0:11:42With the regional pay, they are talking about closing the gap
0:11:42 > 0:11:44between the public and private sector.
0:11:44 > 0:11:46This is one way of doing it, isn't it?
0:11:46 > 0:11:49They want to make the private sector more attractive.
0:11:49 > 0:11:52What do the business people in the audience think?
0:11:52 > 0:11:55More people working in the private sector.
0:11:55 > 0:12:00So, the plan is to cut wages in the private sector
0:12:00 > 0:12:02as well as in the public sector?
0:12:02 > 0:12:06If the public sector did not set some kind of mark,
0:12:06 > 0:12:10wages in the private sector would be even lower.
0:12:10 > 0:12:13That's the truth of the matter.
0:12:13 > 0:12:20I don't think this Budget is even close to being fair.
0:12:20 > 0:12:26It will affect communities even further.
0:12:26 > 0:12:30I think we have got to oppose this Budget.
0:12:30 > 0:12:32Mike Parry.
0:12:32 > 0:12:37In the past, they used London weighting.
0:12:37 > 0:12:42I did an apprenticeship many years ago
0:12:42 > 0:12:44and I received the London weighting
0:12:44 > 0:12:48because I was employed directly from London.
0:12:48 > 0:12:51- Even though you lived and worked in North Wales.- Yes.
0:12:51 > 0:12:54- It was slightly odd. - I think it sounds very odd.
0:12:54 > 0:12:57- That sounds like a very good system. - It was for me.
0:12:57 > 0:13:03Can you see his point? He needs to strengthen the private sector.
0:13:03 > 0:13:07The sector that is creating jobs.
0:13:07 > 0:13:10But you don't do that by reducing wages.
0:13:10 > 0:13:13You do that by providing more jobs and a wider variety of jobs.
0:13:13 > 0:13:16Especially in areas of Wales...
0:13:16 > 0:13:18If salaries aren't particularly high,
0:13:18 > 0:13:20maybe people would be willing to try.
0:13:20 > 0:13:24I don't think you believe your own argument.
0:13:24 > 0:13:27I think it's nonsense.
0:13:27 > 0:13:30- I just ask the questions.- I know.
0:13:30 > 0:13:34But lowering the wages in the public sector won't do any good.
0:13:34 > 0:13:37One thing I think they should do
0:13:37 > 0:13:42is reduce...I'm talking about politicians now
0:13:42 > 0:13:47in Westminster and the Assembly.
0:13:47 > 0:13:51Because if they were only paid £20,000 a year,
0:13:51 > 0:13:54there would be a queue from here to South Beach
0:13:54 > 0:13:59with people still wanting to do the job for that amount of money.
0:13:59 > 0:14:01Lower wages. Who would that attract?
0:14:01 > 0:14:04For some people not too far away from me,
0:14:04 > 0:14:06they are paid way too much money.
0:14:06 > 0:14:11I didn't expect us to go down that path.
0:14:11 > 0:14:13Yes? What about you?
0:14:13 > 0:14:17Maybe I am cynical in thinking such a thing,
0:14:17 > 0:14:21but I think rural Wales, especially this area,
0:14:21 > 0:14:23is under siege from London.
0:14:23 > 0:14:28We have two Communities First programmes coming to an end here.
0:14:28 > 0:14:31In the future, the Assembly intends to have these programmes
0:14:31 > 0:14:35in towns and cities.
0:14:35 > 0:14:39That will have a substantial effect on this area.
0:14:39 > 0:14:41It's just another blow.
0:14:41 > 0:14:44Do you support those programmes?
0:14:44 > 0:14:47They have been doing great work over the past 10 years.
0:14:47 > 0:14:51I am sure many of us would agree with that.
0:14:51 > 0:14:53That's a very good point.
0:14:53 > 0:14:57It's a huge mistake to think that cutting public sector wages
0:14:57 > 0:15:04in an area such as this will be fair, using that word again,
0:15:04 > 0:15:08because there aren't as many opportunities to spend.
0:15:08 > 0:15:15The truth is, living in areas such as this can be so expensive
0:15:15 > 0:15:20when you consider how much money comes in and how much is spent.
0:15:20 > 0:15:27Food, fuel, transport, house prices is so much more expensive.
0:15:27 > 0:15:31Is there anything to praise in this budget?
0:15:31 > 0:15:35- Not by me.- Bethan?- No, not really.
0:15:35 > 0:15:38There's a cut in corporation tax.
0:15:38 > 0:15:41That must be an advantage for businesses.
0:15:41 > 0:15:42I don't doubt that.
0:15:42 > 0:15:46But I think they should have done something with NIC too,
0:15:46 > 0:15:48that would have helped.
0:15:48 > 0:15:54Raising the income tax threshold was a good idea,
0:15:54 > 0:15:56if you want me to praise anything.
0:15:56 > 0:16:00Great, closing on a positive note. Thank you very much.
0:16:00 > 0:16:02We'll have a short break
0:16:02 > 0:16:06but join us in Pwllheli in about two minutes after the adverts.
0:16:18 > 0:16:22Welcome back. We're in Pwllheli for the last programme
0:16:22 > 0:16:24in this series of Pawb a'i Farn.
0:16:24 > 0:16:27Let's move on to our second question which is asked by Peter Reid
0:16:27 > 0:16:30in the front row. What's your question?
0:16:30 > 0:16:34Are the health boards too big and losing sight of local needs?
0:16:34 > 0:16:38Why doesn't the Betsi Cadwaladr Health Board realise that
0:16:38 > 0:16:42local hospitals such as Bryn Beryl and Blaenau are essential
0:16:42 > 0:16:46in rural areas such as this?
0:16:46 > 0:16:50It's a topic that annoys many people regularly.
0:16:50 > 0:16:56Are the health boards too big and losing sight of local needs?
0:16:56 > 0:17:02Why doesn't Betsi Cadwaladr realise that Bryn Beryl Hospital
0:17:02 > 0:17:05is essential in a rural area?
0:17:05 > 0:17:09Mike, I know you've been central in the campaign to save this hospital.
0:17:09 > 0:17:12I've been fortunate as there is a team of us.
0:17:12 > 0:17:15It's an easy matter
0:17:15 > 0:17:21because we didn't have to do much to carry people with us.
0:17:21 > 0:17:26We had 750 people turning out at Ysgol Glan y Mor.
0:17:26 > 0:17:30But there's no doubt about it, Betsi Cadwaladr is too big.
0:17:30 > 0:17:35They joined with another board with debts of £18 million.
0:17:35 > 0:17:39I think we're paying for that today.
0:17:39 > 0:17:44But I have been in many meetings and so on,
0:17:44 > 0:17:48and I was very disappointed with the responses
0:17:48 > 0:17:52we got form the chief officers in the public meeting.
0:17:52 > 0:17:55- What was the problem?- They didn't know anything about Bryn Beryl.
0:17:55 > 0:18:00They didn't know anything about the internal plans,
0:18:00 > 0:18:03that was obvious by the decision they made.
0:18:03 > 0:18:07It is disappointing that they didn't know
0:18:07 > 0:18:10anything about the hospital or the area.
0:18:10 > 0:18:15The staff would hear on the radio in the morning of a ward closure.
0:18:15 > 0:18:17What kind of a...?
0:18:17 > 0:18:24- Are people's expectations in this part of the North West too high?- No.
0:18:24 > 0:18:29You can't have every medical service on your doorstep.
0:18:29 > 0:18:35- They want to centralise things. - Due to cost and it's impractical?
0:18:35 > 0:18:40I don't want to criticise any other hospital
0:18:40 > 0:18:43but we have an X ray in Caernarfon,
0:18:43 > 0:18:49and then 10 minutes down the road in Bangor.
0:18:49 > 0:18:52The unit in Pwllheli only opens for a day and a half.
0:18:52 > 0:18:59Nearly every other site opens for four days of four half day a week.
0:18:59 > 0:19:03We are a poor relation compared with others.
0:19:03 > 0:19:08- Did they listen to you? - Yes.- They are listening to you?
0:19:08 > 0:19:10They were shocked.
0:19:10 > 0:19:13By the end of the two hours the three on stage had wilted,
0:19:13 > 0:19:16physically and mentally.
0:19:16 > 0:19:18Peter, you asked the question.
0:19:18 > 0:19:21What are your fears?
0:19:21 > 0:19:24That they forget about us on this side.
0:19:24 > 0:19:27It's exactly what they call a postcode lottery.
0:19:27 > 0:19:34Why do we pay money out of our wages in order to have a health service
0:19:34 > 0:19:37and someone down the road can have better services?
0:19:37 > 0:19:39It's not fair at all.
0:19:39 > 0:19:43You know, it's an hour from Aberdaron to Bryn Beryl.
0:19:43 > 0:19:46It's another hour from Bryn Beryl to Bangor.
0:19:46 > 0:19:49It's a two hour journey and it isn't fair at all
0:19:49 > 0:19:54to expect people and patients from this area...
0:19:54 > 0:19:58Do you expect Ysbyty Gwynedd to be on your doorstep?
0:19:58 > 0:19:59Is that what you'd like?
0:19:59 > 0:20:02No. But why should we have to travel two hours?
0:20:02 > 0:20:05Why should someone from Aberdaron have to travel two hours
0:20:05 > 0:20:11- to get to hospital?- Fine. Any more audience response? Yes, you.
0:20:11 > 0:20:14Yes, I was part of the campaign about Bryn Beryl.
0:20:14 > 0:20:19It's terrible to think that people say they're professional
0:20:19 > 0:20:23but when you show them what communities are like
0:20:23 > 0:20:28in the Lleyn Peninsula and you have to travel so far.
0:20:28 > 0:20:34The older people, the most vulnerable people, are always hit.
0:20:34 > 0:20:41I was so pleased to see the amount of people who turned out
0:20:41 > 0:20:46in Pwllheli to campaign to keep Bryn Beryl open.
0:20:46 > 0:20:50In the back. Is it Meryl?
0:20:50 > 0:20:54The truth is, they closed these beds in Bryn Beryl
0:20:54 > 0:20:57in order to solve Ysbyty Gwynedd's problems.
0:20:57 > 0:21:01- In order to move staff to Ysbyty Gwynedd?- Yes.
0:21:01 > 0:21:04What they haven't realised is,
0:21:04 > 0:21:07they've chosen the only community hospital that can take
0:21:07 > 0:21:11the pressure off Ysbyty Gwynedd.
0:21:11 > 0:21:14Bryn Beryl staff have received further education
0:21:14 > 0:21:17and are specialised in many areas.
0:21:17 > 0:21:19They can ease the pressure in Ysbyty Gwynedd.
0:21:19 > 0:21:23Shouldn't they move staff into Ysbyty Gwynedd to keep it going?
0:21:23 > 0:21:26No, they shouldn't.
0:21:26 > 0:21:30The service given by Ysbyty Gwynedd and a community hospital
0:21:30 > 0:21:31is different.
0:21:31 > 0:21:36Community hospital staff are experienced at their hospital
0:21:36 > 0:21:40but not in Ysbyty Gwynedd just as staff at Ysbyty Gwynedd
0:21:40 > 0:21:43couldn't work in Bryn Beryl.
0:21:43 > 0:21:48I feel people in the Lleyn Peninsula need to be treated
0:21:48 > 0:21:51like the animals are treated here.
0:21:51 > 0:21:53If I want a vet I can see one in 20 minutes
0:21:53 > 0:21:55and the treat the animals there and then.
0:21:55 > 0:21:58Why can't people be treated in the same way?
0:21:58 > 0:22:01Isn't it bad luck that you happen to live in the Lleyn Peninsula?
0:22:01 > 0:22:04It happens that the services are an hour away.
0:22:04 > 0:22:06They're stopping our services.
0:22:06 > 0:22:09We don't have any toilets, any post offices,
0:22:09 > 0:22:13there isn't anything in Llanbedrog any more.
0:22:13 > 0:22:17Someone has to stand up and say, enough is enough.
0:22:17 > 0:22:21There you go, you've said it tonight. Yes, the younger generation.
0:22:21 > 0:22:22We have to be realistic.
0:22:22 > 0:22:28There have been complaints about the services in Bryn Beryl.
0:22:28 > 0:22:30- There were complaints?- Yes.
0:22:30 > 0:22:33But now there's a threat to close it,
0:22:33 > 0:22:35everyone's supporting Bryn Beryl.
0:22:35 > 0:22:39- You have to look at both sides. - You say there are complaints.
0:22:39 > 0:22:43I can't agree with that because in 2009
0:22:43 > 0:22:48Bryn Beryl was named as the best hospital within the Trust,
0:22:48 > 0:22:51- It's not easy to be given that award.- Bethan.
0:22:51 > 0:22:58Our family experienced the need for care that was not available locally
0:22:58 > 0:23:02as well as local care. Both happened at the same time.
0:23:02 > 0:23:07I don't think people are unrealistic that they want
0:23:07 > 0:23:12everything on the doorstep. That's impossible.
0:23:12 > 0:23:15But saying that I can assure you
0:23:15 > 0:23:21that the savings we made emotionally and financially of having one
0:23:21 > 0:23:26patient in Bryn Beryl while we took the other to Bristol regularly,
0:23:26 > 0:23:30it was a blessing, there's no other way to describe it.
0:23:30 > 0:23:32A week last Sunday I had a terrible cold
0:23:32 > 0:23:37and thank goodness I only had to go to Bryn Beryl and not to Bangor.
0:23:38 > 0:23:41What concerns me is that, I think people are willing accept
0:23:41 > 0:23:45you can't have everything in an area like this,
0:23:45 > 0:23:50not that we're forgotten, but we're disregarded.
0:23:50 > 0:23:57What angers me about Bryn Beryl is that the situation has arisen
0:23:57 > 0:24:02so quickly as if the people were caught unawares.
0:24:05 > 0:24:09The Board were shocked with the response...
0:24:09 > 0:24:11There hadn't been enough consultation.
0:24:11 > 0:24:15It's obvious there wasn't or they wouldn't have thought this
0:24:15 > 0:24:17was a good idea in a crisis.
0:24:17 > 0:24:20It wasn't an accident that they timed this
0:24:20 > 0:24:22between Christmas and the New Year.
0:24:22 > 0:24:27They thought that the people nor Lleyn Peninsula wouldn't respond.
0:24:27 > 0:24:30It was the biggest mistake they made.
0:24:30 > 0:24:35You're Plaid Cymru's spokesman on the economy, you understand money.
0:24:35 > 0:24:39Are you going to tell the audience that it's unreasonable
0:24:39 > 0:24:43to expect a specialist service on the doorstep?
0:24:43 > 0:24:47I don't think people expect everything to be nearby.
0:24:47 > 0:24:50With regards to Bryn Beryl and the distance and services,
0:24:50 > 0:24:56I think it's important the Board keeps a presence in the area.
0:24:56 > 0:25:00They have to offer services for purpose
0:25:00 > 0:25:02so that you make full use of the building.
0:25:02 > 0:25:07It has to be of a high standard. Otherwise, it's good for nothing.
0:25:07 > 0:25:11- If I can just mention another argument...- Of course.
0:25:11 > 0:25:13...not on Bryn Beryl specifically.
0:25:13 > 0:25:16We have to face a few things.
0:25:16 > 0:25:19We have a population that is growing older
0:25:19 > 0:25:24and that will put more pressure on the NHS.
0:25:24 > 0:25:27We have drugs on the market which are very expensive
0:25:27 > 0:25:31and everybody wants them in an emergency.
0:25:31 > 0:25:34At the same time, the budget stays the same or gets smaller.
0:25:34 > 0:25:39I fear we have to face changes.
0:25:39 > 0:25:44- I'm not talking about Bryn Beryl. - You wouldn't accept that change?
0:25:44 > 0:25:46There are changes on the horizon
0:25:46 > 0:25:50and the health boards have postponed their decisions until after May.
0:25:50 > 0:25:53I think something is happening in May!
0:25:53 > 0:25:56I think they're deliberately waiting until after that.
0:25:56 > 0:25:59I haven't heard anything.
0:25:59 > 0:26:02There's a second part to this question.
0:26:02 > 0:26:05Rhys Mwyn, are the health boards now too big
0:26:05 > 0:26:08and they don't understand local need?
0:26:08 > 0:26:12To answer the question, I think they're out of touch.
0:26:12 > 0:26:15It's nothing to do with the size but they're out of touch.
0:26:15 > 0:26:18Someone had done an experiment of travelling to Ysbyty Gwynedd
0:26:18 > 0:26:24on public transport and it had taken four hours.
0:26:24 > 0:26:28If people don't understand local need problems are going to arise.
0:26:28 > 0:26:31I think something else will happen when we're faced
0:26:31 > 0:26:35with all these cuts, and it doesn't justify what's going on here,
0:26:35 > 0:26:40but more and more working people are going to come under pressure
0:26:40 > 0:26:45as a result of these cuts and then there's pressure on everyone.
0:26:45 > 0:26:47Nobody wants that to happen
0:26:47 > 0:26:52and I was pleased that people here had protested.
0:26:52 > 0:26:55Before we go on,
0:26:55 > 0:26:59I have been preparing carefully for this programme.
0:26:59 > 0:27:05I have had a statement by the Betsi Cadwaladr Health Board.
0:27:05 > 0:27:08"Bryn Beryl Hospital remains part of our plans to provide
0:27:08 > 0:27:10"health services in the Dwyfor area.
0:27:10 > 0:27:15"We will be cooperating to consider the best way for the hospital
0:27:15 > 0:27:17"to serve the local people in future.
0:27:17 > 0:27:22"There aren't any plans to close the hospital."
0:27:22 > 0:27:25That's quite positive. Don't you think so?
0:27:25 > 0:27:28Do you believe the statement? There's a second part.
0:27:28 > 0:27:30You go first.
0:27:30 > 0:27:35There's another ward in Bryn Beryl, Hafan Ward,
0:27:35 > 0:27:39that's been closed for about a year and a half, two years.
0:27:39 > 0:27:44They said, it's in the Daily Post newspaper, "We will reopen".
0:27:44 > 0:27:48We are still waiting.
0:27:48 > 0:27:51"The health board has confirmed its intention to reopen
0:27:51 > 0:27:54"the beds during April as the staffing difficulties...",
0:27:54 > 0:27:58and they have been a problem due to illness,
0:27:58 > 0:28:01hundreds of staff members have been ill,
0:28:01 > 0:28:05"..lightened and specific patients have been designated.
0:28:05 > 0:28:08"We have confirmed the hospital's minor injuries unit will
0:28:08 > 0:28:11"return to normal hours during Easter
0:28:11 > 0:28:15"in order to cope with increases expected at that time of year."
0:28:15 > 0:28:19Does that answer satisfy you?
0:28:19 > 0:28:21It sounds right.
0:28:21 > 0:28:24We can only hope that they will stick to their word this time.
0:28:24 > 0:28:27Are you making a mountain out of a molehill?
0:28:27 > 0:28:30They have listened and this is their decision.
0:28:30 > 0:28:33Not only have they done all this, there's another side to it.
0:28:33 > 0:28:39The way they've treated the hospital staff in disgraceful.
0:28:39 > 0:28:41There have been days
0:28:41 > 0:28:45when some didn't know where they were working the following day.
0:28:45 > 0:28:46You can't treat people like this,
0:28:46 > 0:28:49telling them they're going to Bangor tomorrow.
0:28:49 > 0:28:51That's not the way to treat people.
0:28:51 > 0:28:55They've forgotten the fact staff are the foundation of their hospitals.
0:28:55 > 0:29:00As a local councillor I sit on the North Wales Local Health Board
0:29:00 > 0:29:04which is one level beneath Betsi Cadwaladr Board.
0:29:04 > 0:29:08When this happened it was called a winter crisis.
0:29:08 > 0:29:12They said they had to have a plan during winter.
0:29:12 > 0:29:19I'm sorry to tell you that winter happens every year.
0:29:19 > 0:29:26They closed Hafan two years ago and said it was a temporary measure.
0:29:26 > 0:29:29There were six beds there that did excellent work.
0:29:29 > 0:29:35On top of that they have said that people from outside the county,
0:29:35 > 0:29:38outside the area, are coming in. If they'd looked at the paperwork,
0:29:38 > 0:29:42Llanaelhaearn has a different post code and it's three miles away.
0:29:42 > 0:29:47The Cricieth post code is different and that's four miles down the road.
0:29:47 > 0:29:50On paper they had counted the six empty beds
0:29:50 > 0:29:54and said the figures were low. It's a sham from the start.
0:29:54 > 0:29:55Many thanks. Anyone else?
0:29:55 > 0:29:59I've been unfortunate enough to have to have an operation
0:29:59 > 0:30:01and had to wait four months for it.
0:30:01 > 0:30:06The problems I heard about when I was on a ward with older people
0:30:06 > 0:30:11were people who wanted to go home but couldn't
0:30:11 > 0:30:15because they didn't have the resources in order to do that.
0:30:15 > 0:30:19People were asking to go to Bryn Beryl to be close to home
0:30:19 > 0:30:22but weren't allowed.
0:30:22 > 0:30:25Unless things are changed with this bed-blocking thing,
0:30:25 > 0:30:30it's going to get worse. Bryn Beryl's good for that.
0:30:30 > 0:30:35I am a GP in a practise and I work out-of-hours in Bryn Beryl.
0:30:35 > 0:30:39I agree with Bethan, we saw a local family recently
0:30:39 > 0:30:44and we were lucky to get the patient admitted into Bryn Beryl.
0:30:44 > 0:30:47But we have to understand we can't have all the services needed
0:30:47 > 0:30:50in one local, small hospital.
0:30:50 > 0:30:53I work in Eryri and they have an x-ray machine available every day
0:30:53 > 0:30:56and it's a God send, and you forget the things that are needed
0:30:56 > 0:30:58in Bryn Beryl.
0:30:58 > 0:31:03But you accept, as Alun Ffred said, it's a challenging time.
0:31:03 > 0:31:08It is and we need to prioritise and use the special unit.
0:31:08 > 0:31:13David Cameron said yesterday they're thinking of privatising the NHS
0:31:13 > 0:31:17and we have to take that into consideration.
0:31:17 > 0:31:21The statement says the place won't close, Mike Parry.
0:31:21 > 0:31:25I had a meeting with the chairman which took two months.
0:31:25 > 0:31:28It would have been quicker to visit the Pope.
0:31:28 > 0:31:31What became apparent in that meeting was,
0:31:31 > 0:31:34the Board itself didn't make the decision,
0:31:34 > 0:31:37but some of the people who are on...
0:31:39 > 0:31:41For me, what's scared me,
0:31:41 > 0:31:48people on such high salaries make such bad decisions.
0:31:48 > 0:31:51If they were in the private sector they'd be gone.
0:31:51 > 0:31:54Many thanks for your contributions. It's time for another break.
0:31:54 > 0:31:58We'll be back discussing badgers.
0:32:12 > 0:32:14Welcome back to Pawb a'i Farn.
0:32:14 > 0:32:16We've reached the last part of the programme.
0:32:16 > 0:32:19It's the final programme of the series. We're in Pwllheli.
0:32:19 > 0:32:23Let's have the next question asked by Morgan Jones Parry.
0:32:23 > 0:32:26Your question, please.
0:32:26 > 0:32:28This week, the Welsh government
0:32:28 > 0:32:33decided to vaccinate badgers in order to control bovine TB.
0:32:33 > 0:32:35What do the panel think
0:32:35 > 0:32:39about the unbelievable suffering the badgers will face,
0:32:39 > 0:32:42and will this make the disease
0:32:42 > 0:32:47more likely to spread across the country?
0:32:47 > 0:32:48Thank you very much.
0:32:48 > 0:32:50This week, the Welsh government
0:32:50 > 0:32:54decided to vaccinate badgers in order to control bovine TB,
0:32:54 > 0:32:56but will this make the disease
0:32:56 > 0:32:58more likely to spread across Wales?
0:32:58 > 0:33:01Rhys Mwyn, where do you stand on this?
0:33:01 > 0:33:04A very good question. On my way here this evening,
0:33:04 > 0:33:07I thought about how this would be the first time
0:33:07 > 0:33:10that Pawb a'i Farn would pose the same question.
0:33:10 > 0:33:14I think it was asked about six years ago.
0:33:14 > 0:33:17The question is, why are we still here,
0:33:17 > 0:33:20at least six years on, asking the same question?
0:33:20 > 0:33:26This stems from John Griffiths' announcement at the Senedd.
0:33:26 > 0:33:29It's obviously a very complicated matter.
0:33:29 > 0:33:33What we need is a solution to the problem.
0:33:33 > 0:33:36I think it's important to have a sensible discussion,
0:33:36 > 0:33:38but not an emotional one.
0:33:38 > 0:33:40Like many people, I saw on the news
0:33:40 > 0:33:43about the ladies from Pembrokeshire who lost their livelihood.
0:33:43 > 0:33:46Of course, I sympathise with them.
0:33:46 > 0:33:49But we have to find a way to move forward.
0:33:49 > 0:33:54And try to understand all the research that has been undertaken,
0:33:54 > 0:33:56all the experiments that have been done,
0:33:56 > 0:33:58to find out exactly how the disease is spread,
0:33:58 > 0:34:01the effects of a badger cull.
0:34:01 > 0:34:03It's extremely complicated.
0:34:03 > 0:34:07And I assume that's why it's taken the Assembly
0:34:07 > 0:34:09so long to reach a decision.
0:34:09 > 0:34:13Is there new scientific reasoning behind this?
0:34:13 > 0:34:16No. It's a political decision.
0:34:16 > 0:34:19There isn't any new evidence.
0:34:19 > 0:34:22There's no definite evidence one way or the other.
0:34:22 > 0:34:23I remember eight years ago,
0:34:23 > 0:34:26Carwyn Jones, who was then the Rural Affairs minister,
0:34:26 > 0:34:29said he was determined to get rid of TB
0:34:29 > 0:34:33because it was beginning to become very costly for the government.
0:34:33 > 0:34:37But within the next six months, everything settled down.
0:34:37 > 0:34:41Then Elin Jones came up with the proposal
0:34:41 > 0:34:43which meant farmers had to play their part
0:34:43 > 0:34:47by introducing restrictions on the movement of cattle.
0:34:47 > 0:34:49And to some extent, that has been effective.
0:34:49 > 0:34:52They have kept one part of the bargain.
0:34:52 > 0:34:56The other part was to trial a badger cull in one area
0:34:56 > 0:35:02to see if that would control the disease.
0:35:02 > 0:35:04No-one knows if it would work or not,
0:35:04 > 0:35:09but the government have failed to press forward with that proposal.
0:35:09 > 0:35:14And I fear the disease will spread again.
0:35:14 > 0:35:17But is vaccination an acceptable proposal?
0:35:17 > 0:35:20No. Because vaccination doesn't do anything.
0:35:20 > 0:35:24It doesn't do anything for the animals who are already suffering.
0:35:24 > 0:35:27It doesn't help them.
0:35:27 > 0:35:31We need to be clear about how to solve the problem,
0:35:31 > 0:35:35rather than emotional debates.
0:35:35 > 0:35:39There is one risk, if you only cull a certain amount,
0:35:39 > 0:35:42the badgers could move elsewhere
0:35:42 > 0:35:44and make things worse.
0:35:44 > 0:35:49Culling could cut the population by around 50%,
0:35:49 > 0:35:52so that would not be a concrete answer.
0:35:52 > 0:35:56So the question is, do we need a combination of both options?
0:35:56 > 0:36:00That's my concern, as well.
0:36:00 > 0:36:07My sympathies go out to the farmers who face this real risk,
0:36:07 > 0:36:11but my concern is that a badger cull
0:36:11 > 0:36:16is the easy answer in the short term.
0:36:16 > 0:36:20Many of us vaccinate our children.
0:36:20 > 0:36:24- Before they become infected.- Yes.
0:36:24 > 0:36:29But I'm concerned that this is a short-term answer
0:36:29 > 0:36:32and a political answer, possibly.
0:36:32 > 0:36:37It's interesting. We shoot...
0:36:37 > 0:36:39What am I trying to say?
0:36:39 > 0:36:41Foxes.
0:36:41 > 0:36:46No. We shoot deer because they eat young trees.
0:36:46 > 0:36:49And we also shoot grey squirrels.
0:36:49 > 0:36:53That's the word I was looking for. Squirrels.
0:36:53 > 0:36:56Because they're taking over the red squirrels.
0:36:56 > 0:37:01I haven't heard anyone complaining about shooting them.
0:37:01 > 0:37:05We also shoot cattle in the yard
0:37:05 > 0:37:08in front of the families who have raised them.
0:37:08 > 0:37:10But if you talk about culling badgers,
0:37:10 > 0:37:13for some reason, everyone gets emotional.
0:37:13 > 0:37:16The big question is, what can we do that will be effective?
0:37:16 > 0:37:18The big question is,
0:37:18 > 0:37:22how is the disease transferred in the first place?
0:37:22 > 0:37:25What is the effect of culling and vaccinating?
0:37:25 > 0:37:28Does culling improve or worsen the situation?
0:37:28 > 0:37:31What you can't do is emotionally shoot your way out of a problem.
0:37:31 > 0:37:34No-one's talking about an emotional cull.
0:37:34 > 0:37:38There's been endless debates in this area.
0:37:38 > 0:37:41Nothing has worked so far.
0:37:41 > 0:37:43But culling a percentage of badgers
0:37:43 > 0:37:45would at least be an interesting experiment.
0:37:45 > 0:37:48And if it didn't work, you'd stop it.
0:37:48 > 0:37:51This experiment has already taken place.
0:37:51 > 0:37:55They should undertake a trial in Pembrokeshire.
0:37:55 > 0:37:59Eight years ago, I was at a debate in the Assembly.
0:37:59 > 0:38:02I went down to listen to another debate
0:38:02 > 0:38:05and the next item was on badgers.
0:38:05 > 0:38:11I think they knew less then than they do today, to tell you the truth.
0:38:11 > 0:38:14Having said that, they have withdrawn it now.
0:38:14 > 0:38:18I watched the debate at the Assembly the other evening.
0:38:18 > 0:38:19The government are withdrawing.
0:38:19 > 0:38:23Yes. But Elin argued in favour of it.
0:38:23 > 0:38:26They have withdrawn the proposal without reason.
0:38:26 > 0:38:30I will come back to you in a while. Let's hear from the audience.
0:38:30 > 0:38:32Morgan?
0:38:32 > 0:38:37Rhys said that vaccination is the answer,
0:38:37 > 0:38:42but they have proved that doesn't work.
0:38:42 > 0:38:49When our ancestors controlled the badgers in their own way,
0:38:49 > 0:38:54there wasn't any TB in the area.
0:38:54 > 0:38:57What did they do differently?
0:38:57 > 0:39:01The farmers, before the badger was protected....
0:39:01 > 0:39:06And it is a dirty animal in its nature.
0:39:06 > 0:39:11Although people think it's a nice, cuddly animal.
0:39:11 > 0:39:15It can be a very dirty animal.
0:39:15 > 0:39:18Do you think it's cuddly, Rhys?
0:39:18 > 0:39:20I didn't say vaccination is the answer
0:39:20 > 0:39:22because I don't understand it.
0:39:22 > 0:39:25It's taken the Assembly many years,
0:39:25 > 0:39:29and they still haven't solved this matter. I can't solve it.
0:39:29 > 0:39:31Bethan?
0:39:31 > 0:39:34There's an vaccination trial
0:39:34 > 0:39:37which is taking place in Cheshire at the moment.
0:39:37 > 0:39:39And if I've properly understood it,
0:39:39 > 0:39:42we are a few years into a five-year programme.
0:39:42 > 0:39:46There have been experiments in England.
0:39:46 > 0:39:50They've been experimenting with a cull in Ireland.
0:39:50 > 0:39:57And they've had results, along with rules on the movement of animals.
0:39:57 > 0:40:00What is disappearing are hedgehogs.
0:40:00 > 0:40:04Who is eating the hedgehogs?
0:40:04 > 0:40:06- What about...? - Can I say one thing, please?
0:40:06 > 0:40:11We've discussed the financial costs relating to each subject.
0:40:11 > 0:40:14We know that money is tight.
0:40:14 > 0:40:16The government wants to spend £5 million
0:40:16 > 0:40:22over five years in this area.
0:40:22 > 0:40:29They are hoping to vaccinate 70% of these badgers,
0:40:29 > 0:40:32which means 2,000 badgers.
0:40:32 > 0:40:38If my sums are correct, that will cost £2,500.
0:40:38 > 0:40:42Is there a concern that it could spread in this direction?
0:40:42 > 0:40:44Who said it could come here?
0:40:44 > 0:40:47It is coming closer. It does raise its head now and again.
0:40:47 > 0:40:52- But not here, does it? - Yes. There are a few cases.
0:40:52 > 0:40:56It's all being sorted out quickly.
0:40:56 > 0:41:02From what I understood, it's not an animal that wanders far.
0:41:02 > 0:41:07The cattle carry it, not the badgers themselves.
0:41:07 > 0:41:09When the cattle are transported.
0:41:09 > 0:41:12Who else would like to speak? Do you have something to say?
0:41:12 > 0:41:14I see quite a lot of them killed on the A55.
0:41:14 > 0:41:17LAUGHTER
0:41:17 > 0:41:19Accidentally, or intentionally?
0:41:19 > 0:41:21Accidentally, I think.
0:41:21 > 0:41:24When I travel to Wrexham, I see quite a few of them on the roads.
0:41:24 > 0:41:26OK. Yes, what would you like to say?
0:41:26 > 0:41:31A lot of money has been spent on these badgers,
0:41:31 > 0:41:35but I wouldn't like to see them come into this area.
0:41:35 > 0:41:39They would kill all the animals.
0:41:39 > 0:41:43This place would no longer exist.
0:41:43 > 0:41:45This area is very agricultural.
0:41:45 > 0:41:49What has the government spent all its money on?
0:41:49 > 0:41:53What have they done with it over all these years?
0:41:53 > 0:41:55Yes. A good point. Gareth Jones?
0:41:55 > 0:41:58If they don't sort this out soon,
0:41:58 > 0:42:02what is going to happen to people?
0:42:02 > 0:42:05It's then that we'll need the local hospital.
0:42:05 > 0:42:08You work for the NFU, if I remember rightly.
0:42:08 > 0:42:10Yes. A point I would like to raise
0:42:10 > 0:42:13is that over the last few years,
0:42:13 > 0:42:17the agricultural industry has taken a lot of responsibility
0:42:17 > 0:42:20over trying to control TB in regard to the transportation of cattle.
0:42:20 > 0:42:24Each animal must be tested before being moved
0:42:24 > 0:42:26and within a certain amount of days.
0:42:26 > 0:42:32That in itself has affected how the farmer can sell its stock.
0:42:32 > 0:42:38There's a substantial cost involved in that already.
0:42:38 > 0:42:42- That in itself has helped keep levels down.- Briefly, please.
0:42:42 > 0:42:48Because the economy is in a downwards spiral at the moment,
0:42:48 > 0:42:52the only area doing well at the moment is agriculture.
0:42:52 > 0:42:56I'm surprised the government is not trying to help out more
0:42:56 > 0:43:00with what is actually being successful.
0:43:00 > 0:43:05I feel that we have been let down by the politicians.
0:43:05 > 0:43:08The vaccination would be a sign of them doing something.
0:43:08 > 0:43:10Badgers come out at night.
0:43:10 > 0:43:12You have to catch them first.
0:43:12 > 0:43:15And we don't even know if the vaccine will work.
0:43:15 > 0:43:18You might have to vaccinate them more than once.
0:43:18 > 0:43:20- You might have to do it twice. - Very briefly.
0:43:20 > 0:43:26Are you talking about killing every badger
0:43:26 > 0:43:30so that there aren't any badgers who could carry the disease?
0:43:30 > 0:43:32Is that the intention?
0:43:32 > 0:43:35The proposal was to cull all badgers in one area,
0:43:35 > 0:43:40to see if it would stop the disease in that area
0:43:40 > 0:43:44and then see what would work from then on.
0:43:44 > 0:43:46No-one wants to kill healthy badgers.
0:43:46 > 0:43:48I think we will be discussing this
0:43:48 > 0:43:50in the next series of Pawb a'i Farn,
0:43:50 > 0:43:52and the one after that.
0:43:52 > 0:43:54So I'm going to leave that there.
0:43:54 > 0:43:57I'm going to squeeze in one last question from Margaret Jones.
0:43:57 > 0:44:00Can we hear your question, please?
0:44:00 > 0:44:03Does the panel agree that it is unwise
0:44:03 > 0:44:06for shops to be open for longer
0:44:06 > 0:44:11on a Sunday during the Olympic Games?
0:44:11 > 0:44:14Your wording of that question reveals your view on the subject.
0:44:14 > 0:44:18Does the panel agree it is unwise
0:44:18 > 0:44:20for shops to be open for longer
0:44:20 > 0:44:24on a Sunday during the Olympic Games? Mike Parry.
0:44:24 > 0:44:27I don't think it's unwise
0:44:27 > 0:44:31because so many people will be going to London.
0:44:31 > 0:44:34We have to realise that.
0:44:34 > 0:44:39When you look at the prices of hotels in London,
0:44:39 > 0:44:42it's £700 - £800 a night in some hotels.
0:44:42 > 0:44:46If people pay those prices, they've got money to spend.
0:44:46 > 0:44:50So we should take advantage of that. Because the economy really needs it.
0:44:50 > 0:44:53But unfortunately, the majority of it will be in London.
0:44:53 > 0:44:57- You don't think it'll affect businesses here.- No.
0:44:57 > 0:44:59Bethan?
0:44:59 > 0:45:01If I've understood it properly,
0:45:01 > 0:45:05the majority of these shops will be in London.
0:45:06 > 0:45:08I know that the theatres
0:45:08 > 0:45:12and restaurants in London are worried that nobody will be able
0:45:12 > 0:45:17to get into central London anyway to eat and enjoy themselves.
0:45:17 > 0:45:22They are closed during the week, let alone Sundays.
0:45:22 > 0:45:27I think this is a daft attempt to test the water
0:45:27 > 0:45:32to see what could happen in years to come in other areas.
0:45:32 > 0:45:36I think it's just an opportunity for big shops
0:45:36 > 0:45:39to make yet more money.
0:45:39 > 0:45:43You wouldn't like to see them open all day every day?
0:45:43 > 0:45:46I worry about us as a society,
0:45:46 > 0:45:50if we think we have to go to Tesco every blinkin' day!
0:45:50 > 0:45:53But it's a chance for people to go if they can't go on other days.
0:45:53 > 0:45:58- They're open 24 hours a day! - Margaret, what do you think?
0:45:58 > 0:46:02- How much more do they want? - What is your complaint?
0:46:02 > 0:46:06It's nice to have one day for the family,
0:46:06 > 0:46:10whether it's to socialise or relax or go to chapel to worship.
0:46:10 > 0:46:15You want to keep Sunday as it has been in the past. What about you?
0:46:15 > 0:46:20Isn't it crazy after spending these billions on the Games,
0:46:20 > 0:46:24that we put up a "closed" sign?
0:46:24 > 0:46:28We close the door on these people who've come to London and say,
0:46:28 > 0:46:31"Sorry, it's Sunday. We're shut. We don't want your money."
0:46:31 > 0:46:35- Is that a good idea?- Open the shops, you say. In the back? - It's going on for weeks,
0:46:35 > 0:46:38so I don't think it's fair to close the shops for one day.
0:46:38 > 0:46:40If they want to go there, give them the right.
0:46:40 > 0:46:45These people are coming to watch the Games from right across the world. They're not only Christians.
0:46:45 > 0:46:49I think we should take advantage and take their money
0:46:49 > 0:46:52because the Government has spent so much money on the Games,
0:46:52 > 0:46:58as well as other companies, so I think we should take advantage.
0:46:58 > 0:47:00Thank you. And you?
0:47:00 > 0:47:06I'm sure people are worried that these shops are going to stay open
0:47:06 > 0:47:10on Sundays after the Olympics are over.
0:47:10 > 0:47:13Personally, I don't think it's right,
0:47:13 > 0:47:18but I think the floodgates are open already.
0:47:18 > 0:47:24Yes. Alun Ffred Jones, the floodgates are already open?
0:47:24 > 0:47:28The Olympics is now a business. I'm a sports fan.
0:47:28 > 0:47:31You're no longer the Minister for Sport.
0:47:31 > 0:47:34It would be handy to get a ticket! But there we are.
0:47:34 > 0:47:39The Olympics is a business, Coca Cola, BT, that's what it is.
0:47:39 > 0:47:41You're insulting the Games.
0:47:41 > 0:47:45They said the purpose of the Olympics was to inspire
0:47:45 > 0:47:48young people to take part in sport.
0:47:48 > 0:47:53- But the truth is there are fewer taking part.- They're not likely to?
0:47:53 > 0:47:56That's what's happened, according to the figures.
0:47:56 > 0:48:00- It's a business and this confirms that fact.- I hope you get a ticket.
0:48:00 > 0:48:04- You have ten seconds, Rhys.- It's an irrelevant question in a way.
0:48:04 > 0:48:09They're talking about this huge supermarkets - Tescos, Morrisons.
0:48:09 > 0:48:14I wouldn't join you in chapel, but I do think we're losing something as regards Sunday.
0:48:14 > 0:48:19We should at least have a day of peace with less capitalism.
0:48:19 > 0:48:24Thank you. And thank you to the audience in Pwllheli. Our time is up.
0:48:24 > 0:48:27Join us again in the autumn. Thank you very much.