0:00:27 > 0:00:29Tonight's panel - journalist Bethan Jones Parry.
0:00:29 > 0:00:31Guto Bebb, Conservative MP for Conwy.
0:00:31 > 0:00:35Plaid Cymru Assembly member and former Heritage minister Alun Ffred Jones,
0:00:35 > 0:00:40and President of the Welsh Lib Dems President Christine Humphreys.
0:00:42 > 0:00:44Please welcome them.
0:00:59 > 0:01:05Good evening and welcome to Pawb a'i Farn.
0:01:05 > 0:01:09On a cold December night we have an hour to set things to
0:01:09 > 0:01:15right in Colwyn Leisure Centre, Parc Eirias, Colwyn Bay.
0:01:15 > 0:01:20We're about 100 yards from the sea, with some locals in the audience,
0:01:20 > 0:01:24as well as people from villages a little further afield.
0:01:24 > 0:01:27After a week of floods and the Chancellor's statement,
0:01:27 > 0:01:31there's no shortage of topics, If you want to respond to our discussion in any way,
0:01:31 > 0:01:36the usual addresses are at the bottom of the screen, and you're
0:01:36 > 0:01:41welcome to contact us if you want to join us in Ystradgynlais next week.
0:01:41 > 0:01:44That's the last programme before Christmas,
0:01:44 > 0:01:47but tonight we're in Colwyn Bay.
0:01:47 > 0:01:51Our first question comes from Llyr ap Glyn.
0:01:51 > 0:01:54The Chancellor says the economic crisis won't come to an end
0:01:54 > 0:01:56for years, in his statement yesterday.
0:01:56 > 0:02:00Are the panellists confident that he's on the right track?
0:02:00 > 0:02:02A timely question from Llyr.
0:02:02 > 0:02:05The economic crisis won't be over for years,
0:02:05 > 0:02:09according do the Chancellor's statement yesterday.
0:02:09 > 0:02:13Are the panellists confident he's on the right track? Alun Ffred Jones.
0:02:13 > 0:02:15No.
0:02:15 > 0:02:19We can measure his successes
0:02:19 > 0:02:21and failures according to his own yardstick.
0:02:21 > 0:02:28He said this crisis would last five years.
0:02:29 > 0:02:33Earlier this year he said he needed two more years to balance the books.
0:02:33 > 0:02:38Yesterday he said he needed an extra year. He's already behind.
0:02:38 > 0:02:43He also said the economy would grow 3% this year.
0:02:43 > 0:02:48A year ago, he said that would come down to below 1%.
0:02:48 > 0:02:54Yesterday he admitted that the economy had receded during the year.
0:02:54 > 0:02:58So by his own admission, he's failed.
0:02:58 > 0:03:01Another disappointment in yesterday's statement -
0:03:01 > 0:03:03there was no reference at all to Wales.
0:03:03 > 0:03:05One of the things we've talked about and which
0:03:05 > 0:03:08we consider very important, and by now may economists agree,
0:03:08 > 0:03:13we need to invest in financial schemes in order to turn the economy
0:03:13 > 0:03:17around, bring work to companies, new hope for workers, and so on.
0:03:17 > 0:03:20There was money for finance.
0:03:18 > 0:03:20Yes, things have started to turn,
0:03:20 > 0:03:24but it's a small sum in the context of the years.
0:03:24 > 0:03:28There was no mention of borrowing rights for the Welsh Government,
0:03:28 > 0:03:30because we've been saying - not me,
0:03:30 > 0:03:36but people who understand markets, have been saying regularly
0:03:36 > 0:03:40that you have to invest heavily in these next few years in order
0:03:40 > 0:03:43to counteract the fact that the economies of Britain
0:03:43 > 0:03:44and Europe are so poor.
0:03:44 > 0:03:49So no mention of that - another disappointment.
0:03:50 > 0:03:52Right. Guto Bebb?
0:03:52 > 0:03:56It was certainly not the kind of statement you'd have hoped for,
0:03:56 > 0:03:58two years into the present government.
0:03:58 > 0:04:01Yet he sounded quite confident himself.
0:04:01 > 0:04:04It's crucial that we consider the context.
0:04:04 > 0:04:07When the coalition government came to power and when the schemes
0:04:07 > 0:04:12were set up, we didn't expect the Euro to have done so terribly poorly.
0:04:13 > 0:04:17And again in context, the figures show that it's expected that the
0:04:17 > 0:04:21British economy will grow faster than France and Germany, even.
0:04:21 > 0:04:24So in that context, we have to put it in context.
0:04:24 > 0:04:27But the economy in Britain hasn't grown faster than France and Germany.
0:04:27 > 0:04:29No, I said the forecast.
0:04:29 > 0:04:31I didn't say it had happened yet.
0:04:31 > 0:04:34But if we consider the British economy with most European
0:04:34 > 0:04:37economies, it's been remarkably positive in comparison - for example,
0:04:37 > 0:04:40we've got more people reworking in Britain now than ever before.
0:04:40 > 0:04:44People said that when this government came to power, the cuts would
0:04:44 > 0:04:48lead to unemployment all over the country.
0:04:48 > 0:04:53But we've seen more jobs in the private sector. So in that...
0:04:53 > 0:04:54Many of them part-time.
0:04:54 > 0:04:58Well, that's one of the most foolish accusations I hear from politicians.
0:04:58 > 0:05:01You're saying that a part-time job has no value.
0:05:01 > 0:05:04People appreciate a chance to contribute to the family
0:05:04 > 0:05:05income through part-time jobs,
0:05:05 > 0:05:08and politicians who say that are very irresponsible, I think.
0:05:08 > 0:05:10We should welcome any jobs.
0:05:10 > 0:05:14The evidence shows that having a part-time job often leads to
0:05:14 > 0:05:15developing your career.
0:05:15 > 0:05:17Suggesting otherwise...
0:05:17 > 0:05:21No, you have to be careful, saying you're creating jobs.
0:05:22 > 0:05:25Half those new jobs are part-time, that's all I'm saying.
0:05:25 > 0:05:29And we're suggesting that creating jobs is a failure?
0:05:30 > 0:05:34The point is, they're not as good as full-time jobs.
0:05:34 > 0:05:36That's incredible.
0:05:36 > 0:05:38We often hear parties like Plaid Cymru
0:05:38 > 0:05:41and Labour say they want part-time jobs,
0:05:41 > 0:05:44to give people a chance to have a balance between working and looking
0:05:44 > 0:05:48after a family, but when those jobs are created, they condemn it.
0:05:48 > 0:05:53There's an element here of wanting their cake and eating it.
0:05:53 > 0:05:57We've had a budget that shows there is a way forward,
0:05:57 > 0:06:00there is a chance to tackle the debt...
0:06:00 > 0:06:02despite the lack of growth this year.
0:06:02 > 0:06:05It's hard to be positive, when as Alun Ffred has said,
0:06:05 > 0:06:06the economy is receding.
0:06:06 > 0:06:10But in context of this difficult situation that we're facing,
0:06:10 > 0:06:13there are things that we should take seriously in this budget,
0:06:13 > 0:06:16for instance, since the coalition government was formed,
0:06:16 > 0:06:19anyone who earns the minimum wage will have seen
0:06:19 > 0:06:21their income tax being halved,
0:06:21 > 0:06:23so that there's an extra £50 in their pockets.
0:06:23 > 0:06:28That kind of action while we're in such a financial difficulty,
0:06:28 > 0:06:29is to be welcomed.
0:06:29 > 0:06:31You can come back shortly. Bethan Jones Parry.
0:06:31 > 0:06:33There are several points arising.
0:06:33 > 0:06:37Can I say that I agree with Alun Ffred about the part-time jobs.
0:06:38 > 0:06:39I'm sorry, Guto,
0:06:39 > 0:06:43but I feel that there are many big companies who come
0:06:43 > 0:06:46and brag that they're creating jobs - many supermarkets,
0:06:46 > 0:06:51and so on - they will offer jobs part-time, because they don't
0:06:51 > 0:06:56want the financial burden
0:06:56 > 0:07:01and the responsibilities of offering full-time jobs, and I feel that
0:07:01 > 0:07:06many families, while it's great that they have jobs,
0:07:06 > 0:07:09but it's not work that will give them a full wage,
0:07:09 > 0:07:11so that they can support themselves.
0:07:11 > 0:07:15What about Guto's point, that it could lead to more?
0:07:15 > 0:07:19In depressed areas -
0:07:19 > 0:07:24if I can relate your question to my answer to
0:07:24 > 0:07:29the question asked by Llyr,
0:07:29 > 0:07:35I don't feel that people are confident to be enterprising,
0:07:35 > 0:07:39to invest - I don't think people feel,
0:07:39 > 0:07:41as Christmas approaches,
0:07:41 > 0:07:43that society is fearful,
0:07:44 > 0:07:49and because of that, I believe it would be much wiser
0:07:49 > 0:07:52for the Chancellor and for the coalition government,
0:07:52 > 0:07:55to look at the effect of what is happening,
0:07:55 > 0:08:00and its effect on the spirits of society as it stands.
0:08:00 > 0:08:07Because it doesn't matter how much you increase income tax rates,
0:08:07 > 0:08:11if people are afraid to invest and to spend,
0:08:11 > 0:08:16they're going to be live in economic fear, and it won't help the economy.
0:08:16 > 0:08:19Over to the other side of the coalition
0:08:19 > 0:08:21we have Christine Humphreys.
0:08:21 > 0:08:26It's obvious, the people of Britain and Wales aren't stupid.
0:08:26 > 0:08:30They understand what's going on in Europe, even in china.
0:08:32 > 0:08:35The economy's going down a little in China.
0:08:35 > 0:08:39We're living in a world where there are problems.
0:08:40 > 0:08:45When the coalition came in, we were a trillion pounds in debt.
0:08:45 > 0:08:47That's gone down a little.
0:08:47 > 0:08:55Well, the debt hasn't gone down, but we've tackled the economy.
0:08:56 > 0:08:58But for how long can you carry on to blame what
0:08:58 > 0:09:01happened during the term of another government?
0:09:01 > 0:09:08I don't blame what happened, just saying that there is
0:09:08 > 0:09:14a situation where we were in terrible debt, and we're still in debt.
0:09:14 > 0:09:17The situation is just as bad, isn't it?
0:09:17 > 0:09:21Yes, but I'm not going to take lessons from the Labour party,
0:09:21 > 0:09:26either, because when you hear Ed Balls talking, he has no answers.
0:09:26 > 0:09:32What would happen in this country if Ed Balls took George Osborne's job?
0:09:32 > 0:09:40We'd be in an even worse situation, because he doesn't have any answers.
0:09:40 > 0:09:42That's not much comfort!
0:09:42 > 0:09:48No, but the problem is, there is a problem in the economic world,
0:09:48 > 0:09:49and we have to live...
0:09:49 > 0:09:53But some countries seem to be changing direction.
0:09:53 > 0:09:57But Dewi, the papers have been full of threats recently that
0:09:57 > 0:10:02Britain is about to lose this AAA rating that is so important.
0:10:02 > 0:10:05And which is so important also to George Osborne.
0:10:05 > 0:10:08So isn't that a criticism of the economic direction that the
0:10:08 > 0:10:10Chancellor is following?
0:10:10 > 0:10:13- Answer that, Guto. - America has lost it. So has France.
0:10:13 > 0:10:17That shows this government is doing something right, that we
0:10:17 > 0:10:20haven't lost it.
0:10:18 > 0:10:20I said we were about to lose it.
0:10:20 > 0:10:22It hasn't happened yet.
0:10:22 > 0:10:25It still puts it in the context of what's happened in other countries.
0:10:25 > 0:10:29Countries like Spain - I can borrow better than Spain can borrow,
0:10:29 > 0:10:31and that says a lot!
0:10:31 > 0:10:34The truth is that we've heard there's no hope.
0:10:34 > 0:10:37Does it matter if we lose this? This rate?
0:10:37 > 0:10:40What's come from America and France is that since they've lost
0:10:40 > 0:10:43that rate, they can still borrow cheaper than they could before.
0:10:43 > 0:10:46So there is a question of its importance.
0:10:46 > 0:10:50But regarding confidence, I have to make this point.
0:10:50 > 0:10:53More new businesses have been established in these last few years than happened before,
0:10:53 > 0:10:56and similarly, the point about investment is crucial.
0:10:56 > 0:10:59That's why we've raised capital allowances for small business
0:10:59 > 0:11:03from £25,000 a year to £250,000 a year, to encourage people to invest.
0:11:03 > 0:11:08All I can say is that most economists by now -
0:11:08 > 0:11:12and the IMF accepts this -
0:11:12 > 0:11:16that starving the patient just does more harm than good.
0:11:16 > 0:11:22So they're in favour of investment, particularly in capital schemes,
0:11:22 > 0:11:25and that's one of the things we've been preaching for two years...
0:11:25 > 0:11:30- But they are going to invest. - It's £5 billion. It sounds a lot, but it isn't compared to the cuts.
0:11:30 > 0:11:34- But where's the money going to come from?- Exactly.
0:11:34 > 0:11:39When the coalition government came in,
0:11:39 > 0:11:44there was a note from Liam Byrne, Chief Secretary to the Treasury,
0:11:44 > 0:11:46saying there is no money left.
0:11:46 > 0:11:48So if you are going to invest,
0:11:48 > 0:11:52where are you going to find the money to invest?
0:11:52 > 0:11:56The IMF now accepts that at times like this,
0:11:56 > 0:11:59you have to invest in order to boost confidence.
0:11:59 > 0:12:02So the argument is - we're being condemned for increasing debt,
0:12:02 > 0:12:04but we're supposed to increase the debt even more!
0:12:04 > 0:12:07That's what Plaid Cymru are saying! It's a ridiculous argument.
0:12:07 > 0:12:10No, it isn't. If the IMF is ridiculous...
0:12:10 > 0:12:13The IMF has gone into underprivileged countries
0:12:13 > 0:12:16and they've made even greater cuts than this, even.
0:12:16 > 0:12:19What's happening in the European Community...
0:12:19 > 0:12:23They realise their mistake.
0:12:23 > 0:12:27Too much recession is harmful and at some point,
0:12:27 > 0:12:30you have to start to invest.
0:12:30 > 0:12:31You need confidence to invest.
0:12:31 > 0:12:34That's what happened in the Depression in America -
0:12:34 > 0:12:36investment and getting people aback to work.
0:12:36 > 0:12:37The economy turned around.
0:12:37 > 0:12:40Anyone who suggests that the international economy
0:12:40 > 0:12:42we have now compares with the American
0:12:42 > 0:12:45economy in the '30s shows that he doesn't understand economics.
0:12:45 > 0:12:49I'm not the only one who says that.
0:12:49 > 0:12:52Many economists now say that you can't go ahead...
0:12:52 > 0:12:56That's why the money markets have such confidence in economies
0:12:56 > 0:13:00like France, after the Socialists came into power.
0:13:00 > 0:13:05The four of you can have a break. Let's turn to the audience.
0:13:05 > 0:13:08You see how the country is in such a state.
0:13:08 > 0:13:11We've got two politicians on the panel and they don't agree,
0:13:11 > 0:13:12so what chance do we have?
0:13:12 > 0:13:14Don't you like to see a bit disagreement?
0:13:14 > 0:13:20None of them are coming out with sensible ideas. That's the trouble.
0:13:20 > 0:13:24The problem with investment, if you go back to the time
0:13:24 > 0:13:27when European money came to Ireland, or
0:13:27 > 0:13:31when Objective One came to north Wales, where did that money go?
0:13:32 > 0:13:33It was ruined.
0:13:33 > 0:13:37When you talk about investment, you have to have a proper scheme,
0:13:37 > 0:13:39not just throwing money at something.
0:13:39 > 0:13:41You have to decide what to do. Look at Ireland.
0:13:41 > 0:13:43The houses that were built, the roads that were built,
0:13:43 > 0:13:45and look at the state they're in now.
0:13:45 > 0:13:48You're talking nonsense, until you come up with a plan.
0:13:48 > 0:13:50That's from London, and from Cardiff.
0:13:50 > 0:13:53You're not looking at it properly;.
0:13:53 > 0:13:57It doesn't look like you have confidence in politicians from any party.
0:13:57 > 0:14:00No, because I've been a politician myself on a local council,
0:14:00 > 0:14:02and I've no faith in myself!
0:14:02 > 0:14:03LAUGHTER
0:14:05 > 0:14:07Gwyn Evans, the small businesses man in the north?
0:14:07 > 0:14:11I completely agree that we've wasted Objective One.
0:14:11 > 0:14:13We're doing the same with the conversion fund now,
0:14:13 > 0:14:16and we're looking for a load more money.
0:14:17 > 0:14:21Even Liverpool did it twice. We need three or four times.
0:14:21 > 0:14:24What was wrong with what George Osborne said
0:14:24 > 0:14:27yesterday from your point of view?
0:14:27 > 0:14:30I thought in a way he was on the right track, giving businesses
0:14:30 > 0:14:34an incentive to start, and to small businesses - because they say
0:14:34 > 0:14:38that's it's small businesses who will get us out of this mess.
0:14:38 > 0:14:41If you go back to the Assembly,
0:14:41 > 0:14:46at one time we were top of the list, attracting businesses to Wales.
0:14:46 > 0:14:50Now, we're second from the bottom in Europe, trying attract businesses.
0:14:50 > 0:14:55- The whole of Wales?- The Assembly got rid of the WDA, for a start.
0:14:55 > 0:14:59That's going back several years.
0:14:59 > 0:15:06- It's done Wales a lot of damage. - That was a mistake. Come on, please.
0:15:06 > 0:15:09We're in this crisis because the banks have been lending
0:15:09 > 0:15:13too much money for the public to buy houses and so on.
0:15:13 > 0:15:16Now, the Assembly are saying they're going to borrow millions to
0:15:16 > 0:15:20spend on the Heads-of-the-valley road and so on,
0:15:20 > 0:15:22How will they pay it back? Winning the lottery?
0:15:22 > 0:15:25It's the kind of capital expenditure we were talking about.
0:15:25 > 0:15:28We need to improve our roads, don't we?
0:15:28 > 0:15:31Yes, but how are they going to repay it?
0:15:31 > 0:15:35Why not build them as and when they and afford them?
0:15:35 > 0:15:37Goronwy Edwards?
0:15:38 > 0:15:42A lot of small businesses are willing to take risks.
0:15:42 > 0:15:47But the banks are unwilling to lend them money. That's the problem.
0:15:47 > 0:15:50A lot of people have ideas and want to develop businesses
0:15:50 > 0:15:57but they can't get the money.
0:15:57 > 0:15:59Marc Jones?
0:15:59 > 0:16:04I think Alun Ffred's right. We need to invest.
0:16:04 > 0:16:09He's suggested in the past when we've been in this mess -
0:16:09 > 0:16:11this is what successful go governments have done.
0:16:11 > 0:16:14They've invested themselves out of a hole.
0:16:14 > 0:16:18And the countries that are successful today have invested.
0:16:18 > 0:16:21They talk of household economics.
0:16:21 > 0:16:23If a husband and wife lost one job,
0:16:23 > 0:16:29the first thing they do is not go out to raise a mortgage,
0:16:29 > 0:16:31but go out and try to get more money in.
0:16:31 > 0:16:35Thanks, Marc. Gareth Wyn Jones?
0:16:35 > 0:16:37Red tape with small businesses needs to be stopped.
0:16:37 > 0:16:39There's too much paperwork
0:16:39 > 0:16:43and too many people telling small businesses what to do.
0:16:43 > 0:16:46If you want to encourage them, they need to be helped in that way.
0:16:46 > 0:16:48A sentence each from the politicians, to take us
0:16:48 > 0:16:50to the break.
0:16:49 > 0:16:50I agree with that point.
0:16:50 > 0:16:53That's why we've moved from a situation of one in, one out,
0:16:53 > 0:16:55to a situation where we're saying, one rule in, two out -
0:16:55 > 0:16:57and we have to simplify the situation,
0:16:57 > 0:17:00so that people can invest in their businesses.
0:17:00 > 0:17:04I still say, in a very difficult international situation,
0:17:04 > 0:17:08I wouldn't deny that - you still have to invest in capital schemes
0:17:08 > 0:17:12so that businesses have work, and to give people hope young people.
0:17:12 > 0:17:15So more lending, then. Well, after 20 minutes' discussion,
0:17:15 > 0:17:18we're not going to agree on that, but thank you for that.
0:17:18 > 0:17:20Next, we'll be talking about the floods which have hit
0:17:20 > 0:17:23this region particularly hard during the last few weeks.
0:17:23 > 0:17:25Join us again after the break.
0:17:43 > 0:17:46Welcome back to Colwyn Bay to Pawb A'i Farn.
0:17:46 > 0:17:51Our next question about the flooding is from Gwyn Williams.
0:17:51 > 0:17:54Does the panel agree that much more needs to be done to prevent
0:17:54 > 0:17:57floods in future?
0:17:57 > 0:17:59Thanks, Gwyn.
0:17:59 > 0:18:03Does the panel agree that much more needs to be done to prevent
0:18:03 > 0:18:04floods in future?
0:18:04 > 0:18:09I look forward to hearing what happened to you in these parts.
0:18:09 > 0:18:12- Let's start with you, Bethan, as you had a difficult experience.- Yes.
0:18:12 > 0:18:16We had floods in the house - carpets and everything ruined.
0:18:16 > 0:18:22But in context, about two days later I was in St Asaph,
0:18:22 > 0:18:25and it was nothing compared to the chaos there.
0:18:25 > 0:18:32The house is ruined, and it's a terrible thing to happen.
0:18:32 > 0:18:35When I heard this question being asked,
0:18:35 > 0:18:39I immediately thought of a cousin of mine who lives in Norway.
0:18:39 > 0:18:43If you want to get to his front door, you have to ascend some stairs, and
0:18:43 > 0:18:47the reason for that is because the snow in winter comes up to a certain
0:18:47 > 0:18:53level, and the house has been built to take that into consideration.
0:18:53 > 0:18:55I think the weather...
0:18:55 > 0:19:01I'm old enough to say that our weather has definitely changed.
0:19:01 > 0:19:04We have loads of rain now.
0:19:04 > 0:19:08Is there more rain?
0:19:05 > 0:19:08Much, much more.
0:19:09 > 0:19:14We've had two serious instances this year in Wales of flooding -
0:19:14 > 0:19:18Talybont, and now, the Vale of Clwyd, Rhuthin and St Asaph.
0:19:18 > 0:19:25There are minor things we can do, and there are major things we can do.
0:19:25 > 0:19:29I'd encourage every single politician, both locally
0:19:29 > 0:19:33and in the Assembly
0:19:33 > 0:19:38and in Westminster to seriously look at the way we approach floods.
0:19:38 > 0:19:42There are things that we could do, like clearing ditches -
0:19:42 > 0:19:45the responsibility for that shouldn't lie solely with farmers,
0:19:45 > 0:19:48though one would like to see them do it -
0:19:48 > 0:19:54but it was a ditch that caused the flooding to my house.
0:19:54 > 0:19:58The way you build and design houses - I think you have to put more
0:19:58 > 0:20:01pressure on the big companies who get planning permission to
0:20:01 > 0:20:08build in places where common sense says there is a danger of flooding.
0:20:08 > 0:20:10Can I throw that over to the politicians?
0:20:10 > 0:20:14Alun Ffred Jones, have we been too keen to let these houses be
0:20:14 > 0:20:18built in places which are liable to flood?
0:20:18 > 0:20:22The Department of the Environment published maps several years
0:20:22 > 0:20:24advising against that,
0:20:24 > 0:20:26but in the past estates have been built in stupid places.
0:20:26 > 0:20:29But going around Arfon, Llanberis, Tryfan, Talybont,
0:20:29 > 0:20:32all these places were flooded.
0:20:32 > 0:20:37One thing struck me, a lot of common sense - there was a lot of rain.
0:20:39 > 0:20:41People accept that.
0:20:41 > 0:20:45It reminds me of Gwilym Hiraethog's hymn, saying that all
0:20:45 > 0:20:48the reservoirs of heaven, complete until now, have burst their banks.
0:20:48 > 0:20:51That certainly happened that day.
0:20:51 > 0:20:56But certainly, the Department of the Environment, the council,
0:20:56 > 0:20:59Welsh Water even, need to look in detail, because in almost all
0:20:59 > 0:21:03those places, one of the problems was ditches,
0:21:05 > 0:21:11streams going through villages, under very low bridges,
0:21:11 > 0:21:13or just pipes unable to contain the water.
0:21:13 > 0:21:16They need to look carefully to see if anything can be done,
0:21:16 > 0:21:19because what was happening was that the water was just carrying
0:21:19 > 0:21:23so much rubbish down, it was creating small dams,
0:21:23 > 0:21:29and the water had nowhere to go except up and into people's homes.
0:21:29 > 0:21:32So that needs looking at, you have an expert in the audience, I know.
0:21:32 > 0:21:37We'll hear from him shortly. Let's hear from the audience.
0:21:37 > 0:21:39In Rhuthin, we had unexpected floods.
0:21:39 > 0:21:43Last Tuesday morning, there were warnings about what might
0:21:43 > 0:21:46happen in St Asaph, and as we know, it happened.
0:21:47 > 0:21:52Our hearts go out to the families who have suffered there
0:21:52 > 0:21:56so terribly, one family in particular.
0:21:56 > 0:22:01It's been a tragedy for a number of people all over north Wales.
0:22:01 > 0:22:06Talking of Rhuthin, an housing estate was build on flood land -
0:22:06 > 0:22:08it's that simple.
0:22:08 > 0:22:10The maps showed that.
0:22:10 > 0:22:15When that was discussed by the town council in 2006,
0:22:17 > 0:22:22they tried to persuade people that the houses weren't really
0:22:22 > 0:22:26needed at all, because there was no need for over 300 houses at the time.
0:22:26 > 0:22:32Looking at the maps, it was shown clearly that this was a flood plain.
0:22:32 > 0:22:35There's nothing wrong with the houses, they're fine -
0:22:35 > 0:22:41the owners are nearly all young families are very happy
0:22:41 > 0:22:46with their properties. They've invested what little they have.
0:22:46 > 0:22:47So who's to blame?
0:22:49 > 0:22:51You have the Environmental Agency.
0:22:51 > 0:22:54You have Denbigh County Council,
0:22:54 > 0:23:01and you have also the former Welsh Development Agency, possibly.
0:23:01 > 0:23:03People have to provide answers.
0:23:03 > 0:23:06The Assembly will stand up for the old authority,
0:23:06 > 0:23:10people will answer on behalf of the Environment Agency...
0:23:10 > 0:23:15- You're shooting bullets at everyone. - We're not shooting any bullets yet.
0:23:15 > 0:23:18We want answers because people are suffering.
0:23:18 > 0:23:20Gwyn Williams,
0:23:20 > 0:23:24you asked the question and represent a farmers' union.
0:23:24 > 0:23:27I totally agree with what Bethan Jones Parry said.
0:23:27 > 0:23:30We need to clear the ditches.
0:23:30 > 0:23:34The main complaint of people in rural areas
0:23:34 > 0:23:38is that ditches are left and streams close...
0:23:38 > 0:23:41But is that the responsibility of the agencies?
0:23:41 > 0:23:45- If this is on your farm... - No, I mean on the roads.
0:23:45 > 0:23:51But, to take it a step further, we have had floods in the Conwy Valley.
0:23:51 > 0:23:55Fortunately, we weren't hit during the recent floods.
0:23:55 > 0:23:59The problem is, my friend Mike Davies in front of me,
0:23:59 > 0:24:03from the Agency, we've argued many times about this,
0:24:03 > 0:24:06that we need to clear the bottom of the River Conwy.
0:24:06 > 0:24:12That would have solved a lot of problems and minimised the spending
0:24:12 > 0:24:17- over the last few years. - We'll hear from Mike in a moment.
0:24:17 > 0:24:21Dilwyn Roberts, leader of Conwy Council, were you to blame?
0:24:21 > 0:24:25Erm, we get a lot of the blame, but...
0:24:25 > 0:24:27Are you guilty or not guilty?
0:24:27 > 0:24:29Gwyn has hit the nail on the head.
0:24:29 > 0:24:34There is a lot more that could be done by the Environment Agency,
0:24:34 > 0:24:36as Gwyn says.
0:24:36 > 0:24:39We'd all like to do everything perfectly,
0:24:39 > 0:24:44but we have to remember that for local authorities,
0:24:44 > 0:24:49around 65% of our budgets
0:24:49 > 0:24:53goes towards preparing social and education services.
0:24:53 > 0:24:56Just over 12% of our budgets
0:24:56 > 0:24:59is there to be divided between everything else.
0:24:59 > 0:25:03It's difficult to meet the demands of everything.
0:25:03 > 0:25:07- Do you have the money when something like this happens?- No.
0:25:07 > 0:25:10But we're grateful for the support we receive.
0:25:10 > 0:25:12We hope to solve some of these problems
0:25:12 > 0:25:16with the Welsh Government.
0:25:16 > 0:25:19Our sympathies go out to those who've had problems.
0:25:19 > 0:25:22We're grateful to you for being here on behalf of Conwy Council.
0:25:22 > 0:25:26We couldn't find a spokesperson for Denbighshire Council.
0:25:26 > 0:25:27Gwyn Evans?
0:25:27 > 0:25:33I would say that businesses and homes have been damaged.
0:25:33 > 0:25:39More than that, my son lived in the area and suffered damage.
0:25:39 > 0:25:43I blame the Environment Agency.
0:25:43 > 0:25:47If they cleared these rivers... if you went into the River Elwy
0:25:47 > 0:25:52and saw the mess, it's no wonder that Llanelwy was flooded.
0:25:52 > 0:25:54At 2.30am,
0:25:54 > 0:25:58my son was by the river speaking to five or six Agency workers.
0:25:58 > 0:26:04He told them that if they knocked down a wall further down the river,
0:26:04 > 0:26:06it would free the water.
0:26:06 > 0:26:09They said, "We don't do things like that, do we?"
0:26:09 > 0:26:14They had no way of stopping it.
0:26:14 > 0:26:15Hywel Jones?
0:26:15 > 0:26:20I come from Rhuddlan. You didn't mention Rhuddlan.
0:26:20 > 0:26:25The bottom of Rhuddlan was flooded.
0:26:25 > 0:26:27I remember, many years ago,
0:26:27 > 0:26:32the River Clwyd flowed directly under the bridge.
0:26:32 > 0:26:35Now, and over the last few years,
0:26:35 > 0:26:39there have been branches and other things stuck under the bridge.
0:26:39 > 0:26:42It's obvious that rivers and ditches aren't cleared.
0:26:42 > 0:26:45Let's give the Environment Agency a chance to reply.
0:26:45 > 0:26:48Thank you for joining us, Mike Davies.
0:26:48 > 0:26:52What do you make of these points? You're getting it from all angles.
0:26:52 > 0:26:55I'd like to start by expressing sympathy
0:26:55 > 0:26:58to those who have suffered during these floods,
0:26:58 > 0:27:02not just locally, but across Wales during the summer.
0:27:02 > 0:27:05We work with the communities and see the damage being caused.
0:27:05 > 0:27:07It causes a lot of heartbreak.
0:27:07 > 0:27:10We definitely need to do more.
0:27:10 > 0:27:15Maintenance work is something that needs more attention
0:27:15 > 0:27:20- and we do carry out work.- As much as Gwyn Williams would like to see?
0:27:20 > 0:27:23It's impossible to achieve what everyone wants.
0:27:23 > 0:27:25And it's impossible for the councils.
0:27:25 > 0:27:28We have to do what needs to be done.
0:27:28 > 0:27:33It's also important that we realise how extreme the weather has been.
0:27:33 > 0:27:35And it's important...
0:27:35 > 0:27:38Are we getting more rain these days?
0:27:38 > 0:27:43Is there more than during the '60s and '70s?
0:27:43 > 0:27:47We have seen rain like this in the past.
0:27:47 > 0:27:50We've also seen floods like this.
0:27:50 > 0:27:53The question is, is it going to happen more often,
0:27:53 > 0:27:55as scientists are telling us?
0:27:55 > 0:27:58The evidence points in that direction
0:27:58 > 0:28:03so society has to stand up to this pattern and find a solution.
0:28:03 > 0:28:06What are we going to do about it?
0:28:06 > 0:28:10Maintenance is important but we need a balance.
0:28:10 > 0:28:12What about the central point tonight?
0:28:12 > 0:28:15Houses have been built on flood plains.
0:28:15 > 0:28:21- Exactly. That is... - But you agreed to that.
0:28:21 > 0:28:25The most important thing we can learn from what we've seen
0:28:25 > 0:28:28is to learn from the mistakes that were made.
0:28:28 > 0:28:31We need to avoid those developments.
0:28:31 > 0:28:36We're advising those responsible for the planning process
0:28:36 > 0:28:38and giving them the best information possible
0:28:38 > 0:28:41and decisions are made using that information.
0:28:41 > 0:28:43Gareth Wyn Jones?
0:28:43 > 0:28:46I feel like the man up there.
0:28:46 > 0:28:50If we don't clear the rivers and cut down the trees nearby...
0:28:50 > 0:28:54If you go down the A55 and look at the Ogwen River,
0:28:54 > 0:28:56a tree has fallen across the river.
0:28:56 > 0:28:59That should have been cleared straight away
0:28:59 > 0:29:01or it will cause more problems.
0:29:01 > 0:29:03Mike?
0:29:03 > 0:29:05On the question of maintenance,
0:29:05 > 0:29:09we have to remember that the water has got to go somewhere.
0:29:09 > 0:29:14No river in the world will contain every drop of rainfall.
0:29:14 > 0:29:19The water will flow onto what is historically a flood plain.
0:29:19 > 0:29:22That can be agricultural land.
0:29:22 > 0:29:24It's important to remember that.
0:29:24 > 0:29:31But if you dig down four feet, the water level's four feet lower.
0:29:31 > 0:29:33You disagree?
0:29:33 > 0:29:37Completely. It's not that simple. If it was, that would've happened.
0:29:37 > 0:29:42Water has got to go somewhere and if you dig four feet into a river,
0:29:42 > 0:29:46unless you went from the source tom the sea,
0:29:46 > 0:29:48it would cause a flood somewhere else.
0:29:48 > 0:29:53- If you clear a ditch in one field... - People disagree.
0:29:53 > 0:29:59I'm sorry, but if you look at where the bridges are...
0:29:59 > 0:30:02If you clear those places... It's not rocket science.
0:30:02 > 0:30:05I'm a farmer and I see it every day.
0:30:05 > 0:30:10If you don't clear the ditches, it clogs up, and goes somewhere else.
0:30:10 > 0:30:16I respect you, but I think too many people sit in these offices
0:30:16 > 0:30:19and don't understand what needs to be done.
0:30:19 > 0:30:22Was there another hand up here, before I go back to the panel.
0:30:22 > 0:30:28- Yes?- Many years ago, I worked along the coast
0:30:28 > 0:30:33on what they call, or what the do called, tidal gates.
0:30:35 > 0:30:40I don't think that anyone knows where they are now.
0:30:40 > 0:30:44And the system with the tidal gates is that the tide comes in
0:30:44 > 0:30:47and closes the gate.
0:30:47 > 0:30:51The tide goes out and the gates open.
0:30:51 > 0:30:53They don't work now.
0:30:53 > 0:30:56And so, you get floods.
0:30:56 > 0:31:00Right. Dewi Jones in the back. Let's get the microphone over.
0:31:00 > 0:31:02I would like to know,
0:31:02 > 0:31:08we are local to Bodelwyddan, I heard on the news after the floods
0:31:08 > 0:31:13that there's a development plan between Bodelwyddan and St Asaph.
0:31:13 > 0:31:15Hundreds of houses to be built.
0:31:15 > 0:31:20This is coming from the government, this scheme.
0:31:20 > 0:31:23There is a farmer there I know.
0:31:23 > 0:31:27There are 600 acres of his land that have been underwater.
0:31:27 > 0:31:31I was reading about that today in the Daily Post.
0:31:31 > 0:31:33600 acres have been underwater and it's within
0:31:33 > 0:31:36a quarter of a mile of where these houses are to be built.
0:31:36 > 0:31:41Where is the sense? Why isn't the government changing its plans now?
0:31:41 > 0:31:44Right, thank you very much. Guto Bebb.
0:31:44 > 0:31:48In the first place, naturally there are questions to be asked and we need answers.
0:31:48 > 0:31:52But we should also be thanking the emergency services for their work.
0:31:52 > 0:31:54And also, we hear plenty of condemnation
0:31:54 > 0:31:57of the fact that the county councils are not cooperating, but
0:31:57 > 0:32:01I understand the cooperation between Conwy and Denbigh has been superb.
0:32:01 > 0:32:06The weather we have had has been extremely bad. We've had a wet year.
0:32:06 > 0:32:09And I think people do recognise that the weather has been unnatural,
0:32:09 > 0:32:13but the question is whether this is going to continue.
0:32:13 > 0:32:17That of course means we need to reconsider planning.
0:32:17 > 0:32:20But also we need to ask whether lessons need to be learned.
0:32:20 > 0:32:25A lot of work has been done in the Conwy Valley. It has not necessarily been popular, but
0:32:25 > 0:32:29when I woke in a flat in London and heard that 500 houses were affected
0:32:29 > 0:32:34by the awful weather in North Wales, I was expecting it to have happened in the Conwy Valley.
0:32:34 > 0:32:38You feel for those people that were affected,
0:32:38 > 0:32:42but it raises the question does this teach us anything in moving forward.
0:32:42 > 0:32:48Finally, regarding the development plan taking place throughout Wales, meaning houses will be
0:32:48 > 0:32:51built across North Wales, I feel we are developing houses
0:32:51 > 0:32:55without considering where they are going and who they will serve.
0:32:55 > 0:33:00- That is a wider question than flooding.- Are they needed and why are we building them on that land.
0:33:00 > 0:33:05Certainly. The same argument has taken place in Conwy and I know that the council's hands are tied.
0:33:05 > 0:33:10There is an order and an expectation that they act coming from the Assembly.
0:33:10 > 0:33:15- I don't know where the Assembly got its figures.- The Government.
0:33:15 > 0:33:19Well, I think the figures are being squeezed.
0:33:19 > 0:33:22My understanding is that those figures originally
0:33:22 > 0:33:26came from figures created by John Prescott, and that says it all.
0:33:26 > 0:33:28Christine Humphreys.
0:33:28 > 0:33:34Can we return to the matter of using the flood plains?
0:33:34 > 0:33:37I remember being on planning committees in the '80s and '90s.
0:33:37 > 0:33:43I remember sitting there asking why they were planning to build
0:33:43 > 0:33:48houses on this land because it is a flood plain.
0:33:48 > 0:33:50And the answer was -
0:33:50 > 0:33:55it's not a matter to be considered under the planning regulations.
0:33:55 > 0:33:58That was the answer every time.
0:33:58 > 0:34:02Everyone knows where the flood plains are.
0:34:02 > 0:34:07- And yet, we had to give planning permission.- That is not true.
0:34:07 > 0:34:11The Environment Agency is one of those that have input.
0:34:11 > 0:34:16There are maps showing clearly where you can't build houses.
0:34:16 > 0:34:20So if a county council or planning committee doesn't listen to
0:34:20 > 0:34:23that then that's their decision.
0:34:23 > 0:34:26But isn't it true that the Assembly Government, as it was,
0:34:26 > 0:34:31eased restrictions back in 2004?
0:34:31 > 0:34:38The Environment Agency maps are very detailed.
0:34:38 > 0:34:43The matter of how many houses you build is a different matter
0:34:43 > 0:34:48and an important matter. It is controlled by the surveyors.
0:34:48 > 0:34:54But I think we need a different body for Wales to deal with that matter.
0:34:54 > 0:34:57We're talking here about who is responsible for what
0:34:57 > 0:35:02and who has done this and who hasn't done that.
0:35:02 > 0:35:05I'm sure I'm right in saying that Huw Vaughan Thomas,
0:35:05 > 0:35:09the Auditor General, has said either today or yesterday that more
0:35:09 > 0:35:14cooperation is needed between the emergency services and the
0:35:14 > 0:35:19other agencies with responsibility when something like this happens.
0:35:19 > 0:35:21I think that should be a priority
0:35:21 > 0:35:25and I was surprised to hear that it wasn't already happening.
0:35:25 > 0:35:27There is a lot of cooperation between...
0:35:27 > 0:35:32I've heard a lot of praise for the cooperation between agency and council workers.
0:35:32 > 0:35:37You can have the final word. We're grateful you have come here tonight to answer the complaints.
0:35:37 > 0:35:40It's only fair that you have the final word.
0:35:40 > 0:35:43Picking up on that, the idea of cooperation,
0:35:43 > 0:35:47it's important we raise awareness in communities of flood risk
0:35:47 > 0:35:52and work in those areas to deal with floods when they occur.
0:35:52 > 0:35:56Thank you very much to everyone who contributed to that debate.
0:35:56 > 0:35:59Join us in two minutes when we'll be discussing Welsh books.
0:35:59 > 0:36:01It's time for an advert break.
0:36:16 > 0:36:20Welcome back. We're in Colwyn Bay for this week's Pawb a'i Farn.
0:36:20 > 0:36:23This is the final part of the programme
0:36:23 > 0:36:25and we're going to discuss Welsh books next.
0:36:25 > 0:36:29The question is from Rhodri Sion. Where are you, Rhodri?
0:36:29 > 0:36:31In the back.
0:36:31 > 0:36:35Does the panel believe that we produce too many Welsh books,
0:36:35 > 0:36:39as so few people read them these days?
0:36:39 > 0:36:41Rhodri, a pupil at Ysgol Dyffryn Conwy,
0:36:41 > 0:36:45asking - does the panel believe that we produce too many Welsh books,
0:36:45 > 0:36:48as so few people read them these days?
0:36:48 > 0:36:50Guto Bebb, do you read Welsh books?
0:36:50 > 0:36:55Well, not as many as I should. But yes, I do, to an extent.
0:36:55 > 0:36:58I'm not sure whether the wording of the question is correct.
0:36:58 > 0:37:03From what I've seen of the figures, I think the Books Council has published figures showing
0:37:03 > 0:37:07there has been an increase in the sales of Welsh books.
0:37:07 > 0:37:10There has been a fall for the rest of the UK.
0:37:10 > 0:37:15And certainly, I met with the Publishers Society in London
0:37:15 > 0:37:19last week and they see the Welsh Books Council as an example that
0:37:19 > 0:37:23can be adopted in other parts of the UK to try and promote authors.
0:37:23 > 0:37:26I think the fact that we have such a wealth of books being published
0:37:26 > 0:37:29in Welsh is important, to show that the language is alive and well.
0:37:29 > 0:37:32So you wouldn't say that too many are being published?
0:37:32 > 0:37:36Well, we must be aware of the sales figures.
0:37:36 > 0:37:41Naturally, we're aware of what happened with S4C's viewing figures falling.
0:37:41 > 0:37:45People can point the finger because the taxpayer is contributing.
0:37:45 > 0:37:50But the range of what is available and wealth is something we should welcome.
0:37:50 > 0:37:54And also concentrating on children's books is something we should welcome.
0:37:54 > 0:37:57And we should also not think of our produce a second class.
0:37:57 > 0:38:01I saw recently that William Roberts' Y Pla was in its second edition,
0:38:01 > 0:38:05it has been translated into a number of European languages.
0:38:05 > 0:38:09Many books have been published in different languages.
0:38:09 > 0:38:13We have stuff being produced that is often recognised,
0:38:13 > 0:38:17maybe not in England, but certainly further afield.
0:38:17 > 0:38:19Bethan Jones Parry?
0:38:19 > 0:38:23I love the fact that we have so much choice and variety.
0:38:23 > 0:38:26And on that point made by Guto, I also see this wealth and
0:38:26 > 0:38:32variety published as a reflection of the changes happening in Wales.
0:38:32 > 0:38:36The last novel I read was Heulfan by Llwyd Owen.
0:38:36 > 0:38:39It's a very readable novel.
0:38:39 > 0:38:44But it's about a different Wales than the one I am used to.
0:38:44 > 0:38:47I really enjoyed it.
0:38:47 > 0:38:52What about this suggestion we often hear that there are too many autobiographies?
0:38:52 > 0:38:58- Well, they sell, yes. - Does market research prove that?
0:38:58 > 0:39:02Well, when I owned a bookstore, the autobiographies certainly sold.
0:39:02 > 0:39:07John Ogwen and Jonsi, they sold in their hundreds.
0:39:07 > 0:39:13And I know that these days, those kind of books can sustain them.
0:39:13 > 0:39:17Certainly during the dark months after Christmas.
0:39:17 > 0:39:19How many of the audience read Welsh books?
0:39:19 > 0:39:26Gareth, you have published your own book. You can give it a plug!
0:39:26 > 0:39:32Well, I enjoyed writing the book and it's been fantastic.
0:39:32 > 0:39:37There is a book inside all of us.
0:39:37 > 0:39:42And it has been a bestseller in Wales for a month.
0:39:42 > 0:39:45I have a bestseller.
0:39:45 > 0:39:47Congratulations. Gareth?
0:39:47 > 0:39:52Talking about academic books, I'm at Bangor University
0:39:52 > 0:39:58and I have trouble finding Welsh books for geography.
0:39:58 > 0:40:04- An academic subject.- Yes. - But do you read novels?
0:40:04 > 0:40:08What I mean is I waste hours translating into English,
0:40:08 > 0:40:11as I am doing the course in Welsh.
0:40:11 > 0:40:17- So if anything, we need more Welsh books.- Thank you.
0:40:17 > 0:40:20Yes, I read Welsh books and I have worked in a library.
0:40:20 > 0:40:22I've just retired.
0:40:22 > 0:40:26We always looked forward to the books being
0:40:26 > 0:40:32published for the Eisteddfod and for Christmas.
0:40:32 > 0:40:36- There weren't enough. - Not enough?- No.
0:40:36 > 0:40:41Miriam, what about you? How much reading do you do?
0:40:41 > 0:40:45I don't read that much, I must admit.
0:40:45 > 0:40:47I don't find there's much that appeals to me.
0:40:47 > 0:40:51But I must say, I've not really looked into it.
0:40:51 > 0:40:58I've taken it for granted that it's all like the books I read for GCSE.
0:40:58 > 0:41:02And that's not really something I would like to read.
0:41:02 > 0:41:09- Girls?- I read a lot of Welsh books. I enjoy them.
0:41:09 > 0:41:13I think that Welsh literature is something unique
0:41:13 > 0:41:16and it's incredible.
0:41:16 > 0:41:21Our authors have a special kind of humour that you don't
0:41:21 > 0:41:23see in English books.
0:41:23 > 0:41:28- Fantastic. And you? - I haven't read many Welsh books.
0:41:28 > 0:41:33- But I would like to start.- Great. What about you boys?
0:41:33 > 0:41:36How much reading do you do?
0:41:36 > 0:41:42I'm talking more about when the panellists were children...
0:41:46 > 0:41:48Llyfr Mawr Y Plant!
0:41:48 > 0:41:52But that is a fair point.
0:41:52 > 0:41:56Things have improved a lot since when we were children. Alun Ffred.
0:41:56 > 0:41:59Yes, but there were authors, T Llew Jones.
0:41:59 > 0:42:04Trysor Y Mor Ladron is one of the best Welsh language novels.
0:42:04 > 0:42:07J Ellis Williams, there were books.
0:42:07 > 0:42:11Yes, there was not as much stuff about back then,
0:42:11 > 0:42:15but there was some extremely good stuff.
0:42:15 > 0:42:19The situation has changed, thank goodness,
0:42:19 > 0:42:24and we need more quality stuff.
0:42:24 > 0:42:30- Christine?- I don't think there are too many books being produced.
0:42:30 > 0:42:35We have young children learning Welsh and as they grow,
0:42:35 > 0:42:42they need the opportunity and a wide range of choice.
0:42:42 > 0:42:47If anything, maybe we need more. Maybe we need more marketing.
0:42:47 > 0:42:50Maybe we need more books that appeal to young people.
0:42:50 > 0:42:55But the point made by the young man, it is a different question.
0:42:55 > 0:42:59But a lack of material for students and school children is an issue.
0:42:59 > 0:43:03A quick question on this, because I'd like to move on to one final question, Angharad Mair
0:43:03 > 0:43:08said on her Sunday morning show that it was our duty to buy Welsh produce.
0:43:08 > 0:43:10How do you respond to that?
0:43:10 > 0:43:16No, I wouldn't... Who is going to enforce this duty?
0:43:16 > 0:43:20Are we going to have "the book police"?
0:43:20 > 0:43:24- The police commissioner! - Yes, the police commissioner.
0:43:24 > 0:43:29- Guto?- I would not say there is a duty. It is important the stuff sells itself.
0:43:29 > 0:43:35And I think that is increasingly true. We're seeing it in music, for example.
0:43:35 > 0:43:39There are so many groups that can sing in Welsh. The quality is there.
0:43:39 > 0:43:44- Alun Ffred? - No, I don't think it's a duty.
0:43:44 > 0:43:48And certainly, I will just wander round and see what is there,
0:43:48 > 0:43:51in Welsh and English. The truth is you cannot compare.
0:43:51 > 0:43:56When you see the amount of stuff that is available in English, what is available in Welsh is nothing.
0:43:56 > 0:44:03- Christine? - Well, I had a book of Hedd Wyn's poetry given to me as a present
0:44:03 > 0:44:08last week and I'm looking forward to reading that over Christmas.
0:44:08 > 0:44:13Maybe it should be our duty to buy a Welsh book for someone else.
0:44:13 > 0:44:15- A Christmas present.- Good answer.
0:44:15 > 0:44:20I want to move on, sorry. A question from you, Miriam. We've already heard from you.
0:44:20 > 0:44:24How much authority do the new police commissioners have,
0:44:24 > 0:44:28considering how many people bothered to vote?
0:44:28 > 0:44:31Miriam asking the question - how much authority do the new police
0:44:31 > 0:44:35commissioners have, considering how many people bothered to vote?
0:44:35 > 0:44:39- Christine Humphreys?- Obviously, not many people went out to vote.
0:44:39 > 0:44:45- Less than 20%.- Yes. It was disastrous.
0:44:45 > 0:44:51When I went to vote, only 5% of the population had voted.
0:44:51 > 0:44:55And that was quite late at night.
0:44:55 > 0:45:01Obviously, it wasn't something that people thought was important.
0:45:01 > 0:45:06As a Liberal, I didn't agree with it because I don't think that
0:45:06 > 0:45:12someone in a job like that should be political.
0:45:12 > 0:45:16And I was glad of the opportunity to see that there were
0:45:16 > 0:45:19independent candidates on the list.
0:45:19 > 0:45:23There was a Liberal in North Wales.
0:45:23 > 0:45:30A member of the Liberal Democrats, but the Liberals weren't standing.
0:45:30 > 0:45:36But a vote has taken place and we have a result.
0:45:36 > 0:45:40And the commissioners now have four years to
0:45:40 > 0:45:44- prove that they have a job to do. - This was David Cameron's idea, Guto.
0:45:44 > 0:45:48It was a Conservative Party idea and I think it is one of those
0:45:48 > 0:45:53policies that I think is correct, but has been implemented badly.
0:45:53 > 0:45:55I've said that publicly a number of times.
0:45:55 > 0:45:59- What happened?- I think there was a mixture of things.
0:45:59 > 0:46:02The decision to hold the vote in November was a basic mistake.
0:46:02 > 0:46:07The decision not to provide money to ensure information went to all homes was a mistake.
0:46:07 > 0:46:11But to put it in context, five million people voted,
0:46:11 > 0:46:16and that's five million more than were responsible for the old police authorities.
0:46:16 > 0:46:19And also during the past three weeks, six MPs have been
0:46:19 > 0:46:22elected in by-elections and some of those had turnouts of under 25%.
0:46:22 > 0:46:26No-on is questioning their authority.
0:46:26 > 0:46:29So Miriam should not be asking this question?
0:46:29 > 0:46:33It's a fair question, and I think we now have a challenge.
0:46:33 > 0:46:37Those elected to these roles need to prove that the jobs are relevant
0:46:37 > 0:46:40and they can make a difference.
0:46:40 > 0:46:44- Alun Ffred? - A silly and pointless idea.
0:46:44 > 0:46:48It will be interesting to see in four years' time
0:46:48 > 0:46:51if it's made any difference.
0:46:51 > 0:46:54Everyone will know who they are by then.
0:46:54 > 0:46:56Well, nobody knew who they were.
0:46:56 > 0:47:01Anyway, it's happened now and good luck to them. They'll need it.
0:47:01 > 0:47:04It's important to note that in London, for example,
0:47:04 > 0:47:07Boris Johnson is the police commissioner.
0:47:07 > 0:47:12People are aware that if they want to complain about the Met Police, they know where to go.
0:47:12 > 0:47:16Answer that point, Alun Ffred. We'll know who these people are.
0:47:16 > 0:47:20If you have a complaint, you can go to Winston Roddick.
0:47:20 > 0:47:22But under the old system...
0:47:22 > 0:47:26He will have a lot of people knocking on his door.
0:47:26 > 0:47:30- That's a good thing. - There was a local link through the councillors on the police authority.
0:47:30 > 0:47:33I'm not saying that system was perfect, but I don't think this is an improvement.
0:47:33 > 0:47:36- Just one point...- Sorry, no.
0:47:36 > 0:47:40we have someone on the panel who will be working for the North Wales police commissioner, Bethan.
0:47:40 > 0:47:45Yes, trying to reach out to the various communities.
0:47:45 > 0:47:49How much authority will he have as a result of the turnout?
0:47:49 > 0:47:56The commissioner has authority, as he was elected in the correct fashion.
0:47:56 > 0:47:59Winston Roddick won the election.
0:47:59 > 0:48:06So he has the authority as a result of that.
0:48:06 > 0:48:10Saying that, I agree. I've never seen such a campaign.
0:48:10 > 0:48:14Disorganised, the wrong time of year, very disappointing.
0:48:14 > 0:48:18There we are. We must end there. Sorry, you do not have a chance to contribute on that subject,
0:48:18 > 0:48:23audience, but thank you for your contributions this evening. And thank you, panel.
0:48:23 > 0:48:26Next week, we will be in Ystradgynlais.
0:48:26 > 0:48:29I hope you can join us. From Colwyn Bay, good night.