0:00:24 > 0:00:26On our panel tonight,
0:00:26 > 0:00:29the Conservative MP for Montgomeryshire, Glyn Davies.
0:00:29 > 0:00:34The Deputy Agriculture Minister in the Assembly, Alun Davies.
0:00:34 > 0:00:38The journalist and editor of Heno, Angharad Mair.
0:00:38 > 0:00:42The organiser of the National Eisteddfod, Hywel Wyn Edwards.
0:00:42 > 0:00:43Please welcome them.
0:00:56 > 0:01:01Good evening and welcome to this week's edition of Pawb a'i Farn.
0:01:01 > 0:01:04I hope you're ready for another hour of discussion and debate here on S4C.
0:01:04 > 0:01:07Once again we've been attracted back to northern Powys.
0:01:07 > 0:01:11We're here in Welshpool leisure centre with an audience
0:01:11 > 0:01:15from all over the former county of Montgomeryshire.
0:01:15 > 0:01:19The last time we were here the hot topic was wind turbines,
0:01:19 > 0:01:22let's see if it's still the same.
0:01:22 > 0:01:27Next week, we'll be in Cardiff with a group of young people.
0:01:27 > 0:01:30You're welcome to come as long as you're young.
0:01:30 > 0:01:34But tonight the people of Powys of all ages can have their say.
0:01:34 > 0:01:38Let's have our first question asked by Glyn Williams.
0:01:38 > 0:01:40Glyn Williams what's your question?
0:01:40 > 0:01:44The Westminster Government has decided to cull badgers
0:01:44 > 0:01:46in specific areas.
0:01:46 > 0:01:52Remembering that a lot of cattle are destroyed in Wales due to TB,
0:01:52 > 0:01:59shouldn't the Welsh Government reconsider the vaccination policy?
0:01:59 > 0:02:00Many thanks, Glyn.
0:02:00 > 0:02:04The Westminster Government has decided to cull badgers
0:02:04 > 0:02:07in specific areas. Remembering that cattle in Wales
0:02:07 > 0:02:09are being destroyed due to TB,
0:02:09 > 0:02:13shouldn't the Welsh Government reconsider the vaccination policy??
0:02:13 > 0:02:17Let's start with a member of the Government, Alun Davies.
0:02:17 > 0:02:18What about it?
0:02:20 > 0:02:24Wales is the only country in Britain where there is a policy
0:02:24 > 0:02:27to prevent TB in wildlife.
0:02:27 > 0:02:31You're right to say in what's happened in England.
0:02:31 > 0:02:33But they haven't had cases in England.
0:02:33 > 0:02:38I think what farmers in Wales want is to see the Government
0:02:38 > 0:02:41taking action and the Government has taken action.
0:02:41 > 0:02:471,400 badgers have been vaccinated during the summer.
0:02:47 > 0:02:50The programme will re-start in the next few months.
0:02:50 > 0:02:55We all know this is going to be a problem for years to come
0:02:55 > 0:02:59but the decision has been made by the Welsh Government
0:02:59 > 0:03:02and by the Welsh Assembly
0:03:02 > 0:03:05and I think it's now time to move on with a policy.
0:03:05 > 0:03:09I know the policy isn't popular amongst a lot of farmers.
0:03:09 > 0:03:12They haven't been convinced that it works.
0:03:12 > 0:03:17It is supported by the Assembly and, I think,
0:03:17 > 0:03:22the majority of people in Wales. That's where we're at.
0:03:22 > 0:03:27I know it's not popular in the agricultural community.
0:03:27 > 0:03:30You're predicting an unpopular response here.
0:03:30 > 0:03:33We've been here before. But I do think...
0:03:33 > 0:03:38But the farmers opinion doesn't convince you?
0:03:38 > 0:03:41The time for discussion has passed.
0:03:41 > 0:03:44It's time to move on and act on the policies that we have
0:03:44 > 0:03:48and I am confident this policy will succeed.
0:03:48 > 0:03:53Can I ask a few questions about that. How long will this experiment last?
0:03:53 > 0:03:57How can you say if it's been successful?
0:03:57 > 0:04:00It's going to last for five years and we are considering,
0:04:00 > 0:04:04and there was a statement on this in the Assembly
0:04:04 > 0:04:07less than a month ago, at looking
0:04:07 > 0:04:14to eradicate TB in cattle in Wales.
0:04:14 > 0:04:17We know that Welsh farmers have worked very hard
0:04:17 > 0:04:20when it comes to safeguarding animals.
0:04:20 > 0:04:24I'm very grateful to a lot of people who have worked extremely hard
0:04:24 > 0:04:27to make sure that's happening.
0:04:27 > 0:04:34With our policy for wildlife and with security,
0:04:34 > 0:04:37I hope we can eradicate TB.
0:04:37 > 0:04:39A full answer.
0:04:39 > 0:04:42Have you been convinced as a farmer yourself, Glyn Davies?
0:04:42 > 0:04:44I've heard a lot from the farmers.
0:04:44 > 0:04:48What I think is important is to get evidence
0:04:48 > 0:04:53if culling badgers will have an affect.
0:04:53 > 0:04:56That's why we have to have a pilot scheme.
0:04:56 > 0:04:59When the Welsh Government went down that route, Elin Jones
0:04:59 > 0:05:03was the minister then, and she wanted a pilot in Pembrokeshire.
0:05:03 > 0:05:05I supported what she said
0:05:05 > 0:05:10but now we've got these two pilot schemes in England this year.
0:05:12 > 0:05:17To be honest, it doesn't matter what the government does in Wales,
0:05:17 > 0:05:22we need to find out if culling badgers will work.
0:05:22 > 0:05:27If it does work, it will be implemented right through Britain.
0:05:27 > 0:05:31But that doesn't happen. They've gone against that policy.
0:05:31 > 0:05:38I have to say, Dewi, it wasn't going to be rolled out before October.
0:05:38 > 0:05:40It couldn't happen after October.
0:05:40 > 0:05:43The minister Owen Paterson from Shrewsbury...
0:05:43 > 0:05:47- But that's in England.- ..it will roll out in the summer.
0:05:47 > 0:05:52You hope that the Westminster Government policy
0:05:52 > 0:05:55will influence people like Alun Davies.
0:05:55 > 0:05:58Only if it's successful. That's what I expect.
0:05:58 > 0:06:02See if the pilot schemes are successful and having an affect,
0:06:02 > 0:06:05and then I'm sure the Welsh Government will do the same.
0:06:05 > 0:06:08- Are you ready to listen?- Of course.
0:06:08 > 0:06:12We are already co-operating with DEFRA and the European Commission.
0:06:12 > 0:06:16Of course people are willing to learn from each other.
0:06:16 > 0:06:21I hope that if the vaccinating pilot scheme we have in Wales works,
0:06:21 > 0:06:24DEFRA will listen to what we've got to say.
0:06:24 > 0:06:27I have to say from my experience of cooperating with DEFRA,
0:06:27 > 0:06:29- they do tend to listen. - Angharad Mair.
0:06:29 > 0:06:33If only the Welsh Language had the same status as the badgers
0:06:33 > 0:06:37to have all Governmental power to protect it.
0:06:37 > 0:06:39Badgers are a plague.
0:06:39 > 0:06:42If there was a plague of rats hit Welshpool this evening
0:06:42 > 0:06:46they will have been destroyed by the morning.
0:06:51 > 0:06:58It costs £30 million a year for us to compensate the farmers
0:06:58 > 0:07:01because of the badgers.
0:07:01 > 0:07:03Last year in a speech,
0:07:03 > 0:07:07Alun Davies here suggested that it would be impossible for anyone
0:07:07 > 0:07:12to be elected to the Assembly if he stood against culling badgers.
0:07:13 > 0:07:17Well, if you believe the contrary,
0:07:17 > 0:07:20make sure you vote for a party who are willing to cull badgers
0:07:20 > 0:07:24and show that Alun Davies and Labour are wrong.
0:07:28 > 0:07:30You can answer that, Alun.
0:07:30 > 0:07:32People had the opportunity to do that two years ago...
0:07:32 > 0:07:37If I can follow that point, the rural, agriculture vote
0:07:37 > 0:07:39isn't important to you?
0:07:39 > 0:07:42All your votes come from the urban areas?
0:07:42 > 0:07:45With due respect, that's not what she said.
0:07:45 > 0:07:48We do live in a democratic country.
0:07:48 > 0:07:52We have, we had an Assembly election in May two years ago.
0:07:52 > 0:07:56I think if there was a free vote in the Assembly today
0:07:56 > 0:07:59the Assembly would vote against the policy of culling.
0:07:59 > 0:08:02That's what I'm hearing from people from all parties.
0:08:02 > 0:08:05In every party there are people of culling badgers,
0:08:05 > 0:08:07and people against culling badgers.
0:08:07 > 0:08:10I don't think it's a party issue.
0:08:10 > 0:08:15But it is important, as Glyn has said, we do have that pilot,
0:08:15 > 0:08:18we do see what happens in Pembrokeshire.
0:08:18 > 0:08:20I've heard some good things up until now.
0:08:20 > 0:08:24If it does succeeded, I think the agriculture industry
0:08:24 > 0:08:28will join us and support vaccinating in every part of Wales.
0:08:28 > 0:08:30Hywel, what do you think?
0:08:30 > 0:08:32In the first place,
0:08:32 > 0:08:36I don't think I feel comfortable in killing any kind of animal.
0:08:36 > 0:08:39But saying that I can see the problem.
0:08:39 > 0:08:44The previous government in the Assembly had said
0:08:44 > 0:08:48they would go at it to cull badgers
0:08:48 > 0:08:52in one area in Wales, Pembrokeshire.
0:08:54 > 0:08:57But that changed following the last election.
0:08:59 > 0:09:03In England, they've decided to use different tactics.
0:09:05 > 0:09:12They're going to use two pilot areas, Somerset and Worcestershire.
0:09:12 > 0:09:16What I wonder is why can't we do a similar thing?
0:09:16 > 0:09:19There isn't going to be one answer.
0:09:19 > 0:09:26Alun says the Government has vaccinated 1,400 badgers.
0:09:26 > 0:09:28How many badgers are there?
0:09:28 > 0:09:33I'm sure that a very small percentage have been vaccinated.
0:09:33 > 0:09:37It seems they're like rabbits, and we know what rabbits are like!
0:09:40 > 0:09:45Well, there are even higher numbers adding to the problem.
0:09:45 > 0:09:49Why couldn't we continue with the vaccination project in one area,
0:09:49 > 0:09:52such as Pembrokeshire,
0:09:52 > 0:09:57and maybe in this area in Powys which is also a badger stronghold.
0:09:57 > 0:10:02Maybe we should have a culling scheme, a bit of both maybe.
0:10:04 > 0:10:07Let's ask some farmers in the audience.
0:10:07 > 0:10:10I'll come back to you, Glyn, seeing you asked the question.
0:10:10 > 0:10:13What concerns me is we've heard this is a five year project.
0:10:13 > 0:10:18How many cattle are going to die in that time?
0:10:18 > 0:10:24It's such a shame going onto a farm and seeing families of cows
0:10:24 > 0:10:27being lost for ever.
0:10:27 > 0:10:31After years and years of breeding they're all gone.
0:10:31 > 0:10:37Vaccinations don't help the farmer at all.
0:10:37 > 0:10:44You're willing to kill the cattle but how about tackling the badgers?
0:10:44 > 0:10:48You can come back. You're welcome to applaud. Aled Davies.
0:10:48 > 0:10:53It costs about £600, £700 to vaccinate every badger.
0:10:53 > 0:10:56You have to do it again and again, year after year.
0:10:56 > 0:10:59- Are those figures correct? - That's only a small patch of Wales.
0:10:59 > 0:11:03How much would it cost to do the whole country?
0:11:03 > 0:11:07I think the ministers in the Assembly need to be vaccinated
0:11:07 > 0:11:09with a huge dose of common sense.
0:11:09 > 0:11:11Can I have the microphone here.
0:11:12 > 0:11:17Those figures were in the Farmers' Weekly this week. It costs £662.
0:11:17 > 0:11:21I live on a farm and it's not just TB.
0:11:21 > 0:11:23They destroy the land,
0:11:23 > 0:11:26they eat the worms which benefit the land and the crops.
0:11:26 > 0:11:29I see many of them every day.
0:11:29 > 0:11:34It's as much a problem here as it is in Pembrokeshire? In the back.
0:11:34 > 0:11:37There was an article in the Daily Mail yesterday saying
0:11:37 > 0:11:41badgers needed to be tackled immediately.
0:11:41 > 0:11:44One of the reasons for that is how the badgers effect
0:11:44 > 0:11:47other animals in the countryside.
0:11:47 > 0:11:53There used to be 36 million foxes in this country in the 1950s and 1960s.
0:11:53 > 0:11:56There's less than a million now.
0:11:56 > 0:12:01On top of that, badgers eat the eggs of birds that nest on the ground.
0:12:01 > 0:12:07I don't know if you've got five years for this vaccination project.
0:12:07 > 0:12:10- Something needs to be done now. - You need immediate action.
0:12:10 > 0:12:13Let's go to this row.
0:12:13 > 0:12:18The problem you have now is the strain the farmer is under.
0:12:18 > 0:12:23They get the cattle ready in 60 days to test.
0:12:23 > 0:12:26If it's inconclusive you have to do it again.
0:12:26 > 0:12:29It goes on for months and months.
0:12:29 > 0:12:31All the stock that's destroyed.
0:12:31 > 0:12:33It plays on people's minds.
0:12:35 > 0:12:38That's the biggest problem.
0:12:38 > 0:12:42It gets worse in Montgomeryshire every day.
0:12:42 > 0:12:46One of my friends who lives two miles from Welshpool,
0:12:46 > 0:12:47they've found TB.
0:12:48 > 0:12:52- You don't think that is fast enough? - No.- Behind you, Emyr Jones.
0:12:52 > 0:12:54I think it's too late.
0:12:54 > 0:12:56What I'm afraid of is,
0:12:56 > 0:12:59many of these farmers who have lost their stock will have enough,
0:12:59 > 0:13:02as they say 60 days comes round so quickly,
0:13:02 > 0:13:04they're not going to keep cattle any more.
0:13:04 > 0:13:07We'll soon see that cattle are not being kept in Wales.
0:13:07 > 0:13:09People will have enough.
0:13:09 > 0:13:14Are farmers doing enough to protect their cows and stop TB themselves?
0:13:14 > 0:13:18What can they do? They can't do any more.
0:13:18 > 0:13:21You can go onto a farm
0:13:21 > 0:13:25and see the badgers have been there the night before.
0:13:25 > 0:13:28You can't keep cattle in cages.
0:13:28 > 0:13:31- Yes, back to you. - We can't do anything.
0:13:31 > 0:13:34If you put up fences, they burrow underneath.
0:13:34 > 0:13:37We can't stop them.
0:13:37 > 0:13:39Robin Benbo in the back row.
0:13:39 > 0:13:43I've stopped keeping cattle because of that reason. There were problems.
0:13:43 > 0:13:46We have to remember that people need food
0:13:46 > 0:13:50and we're ready to bring in infected food from all over the world
0:13:50 > 0:13:52with Tesco's burgers.
0:13:52 > 0:13:56But we're willing to destroy cattle here.
0:13:56 > 0:14:01Maybe we should start eating badgers. Maybe that's an answer.
0:14:01 > 0:14:05- They'd be better than Tesco burgers. - You've stopped...
0:14:05 > 0:14:10It was too much hard work with all the testing.
0:14:10 > 0:14:16A government vet would come and tell me how I could keep the cows
0:14:16 > 0:14:19and badgers separate from each other.
0:14:19 > 0:14:21How can you do that in a field?
0:14:21 > 0:14:26If you can show us that we'll follow your rules.
0:14:26 > 0:14:30- Can the minister answer that? - You can do that now.
0:14:30 > 0:14:35Answer that when you consider that five years is a long time.
0:14:35 > 0:14:36Of course it is.
0:14:36 > 0:14:40Nobody, not even those who say culling badgers will have an impact,
0:14:40 > 0:14:44can say it will have an impact in less than five years' time.
0:14:44 > 0:14:47Nobody's arguing that, not even in England.
0:14:47 > 0:14:49It's fiction to believe
0:14:49 > 0:14:53if you start culling badgers this year you'll get rid of TB this year.
0:14:53 > 0:14:55Nobody believes that.
0:14:55 > 0:14:59Can I come back to safeguarding cattle,
0:14:59 > 0:15:00it is an important question.
0:15:00 > 0:15:05I think Welsh farmers do amazing work when it comes to do that.
0:15:05 > 0:15:10There is no way of stopping cattle going anywhere near badgers.
0:15:10 > 0:15:14We all know and understand that.
0:15:14 > 0:15:17But we have to do the two things at the same time.
0:15:17 > 0:15:20We have to have the biosecurity
0:15:20 > 0:15:24and respond to what's happening to wildlife too. We have to do both.
0:15:24 > 0:15:28A quick sentence from the other three.
0:15:28 > 0:15:30The problem is, I feel the same way.
0:15:30 > 0:15:32I don't think vaccinating will work.
0:15:32 > 0:15:36That's the reason why we have to have evidence.
0:15:36 > 0:15:40The government in Britain will have the pilot...
0:15:40 > 0:15:44From my point of view, both governments have
0:15:44 > 0:15:47the same evidence but have followed two different paths. Why?
0:15:47 > 0:15:52At the moment there isn't any hard evidence that
0:15:52 > 0:15:56badgers are having an effect.
0:15:56 > 0:15:59We have to have evidence
0:15:59 > 0:16:03because those against the policy believe we need evidence.
0:16:03 > 0:16:05That's happened in England.
0:16:06 > 0:16:10If the badger wasn't such a cute animal they'd be culled.
0:16:10 > 0:16:15Common sense is needed here, they are a pest and nothing else
0:16:15 > 0:16:18and they destroy hard work done by Welsh farmers.
0:16:23 > 0:16:27- Do they invade the Eisteddfod Maes, Hywel?- I don't think so.
0:16:27 > 0:16:28I haven't see any.
0:16:28 > 0:16:32I was listening to Glyn earlier as he mentioned the cattle
0:16:32 > 0:16:33being destroyed.
0:16:33 > 0:16:39According to something I read recently 75,000 cattle
0:16:39 > 0:16:44have been destroyed during the last ten years. 1,500 vaccinations...
0:16:44 > 0:16:47There isn't any comparison.
0:16:47 > 0:16:5175,000 as this person mentioned...
0:16:51 > 0:16:54We'll think about that during the advert.
0:16:54 > 0:16:58Join us in about two minutes from Welshpool.
0:17:14 > 0:17:18Welcome back. You're watching Pawb a'i Farn from Welshpool.
0:17:18 > 0:17:23Let's now turn to a topic we haven't discussed for quite some time.
0:17:23 > 0:17:26This question by Trefor Owen. What's your question?
0:17:27 > 0:17:30Would the panel be in favour of holding
0:17:30 > 0:17:35- the National Eisteddfod on two permanent sites?- Many thanks.
0:17:35 > 0:17:39Trefor's seen who we've got on our panel this evening.
0:17:39 > 0:17:41Would the panel be in favour of holding
0:17:41 > 0:17:44the National Eisteddfod on two permanent sites?
0:17:44 > 0:17:49Well, we've got the biggest expert here to discuss that.
0:17:49 > 0:17:54Hywel Wyn Edwards, two permanent sites. Does that appeal?
0:17:55 > 0:18:00No, but I've got more to say and I'm sure
0:18:00 > 0:18:05we can talk about this from now until the next Pawb a'i Farn.
0:18:05 > 0:18:08- I'll give you two minutes. - There we go.
0:18:08 > 0:18:11The Eisteddfod exists to protect the Welsh language
0:18:11 > 0:18:13and to boost the culture.
0:18:13 > 0:18:17What we feel, or those of us who work in it feel,
0:18:17 > 0:18:23it's important the Eisteddfod visits parts of Wales
0:18:23 > 0:18:28in order to do that kind of work right across the country rather than
0:18:28 > 0:18:30placing it in one site or two sites.
0:18:30 > 0:18:35The problem then would be, where would those permanent sites be?
0:18:35 > 0:18:40That would be a bigger hot potato than badgers.
0:18:40 > 0:18:43Wherever the Eisteddfod visits a lot of activity takes place
0:18:43 > 0:18:45in that area.
0:18:45 > 0:18:48The Eisteddfod has just visited the Vale of Glamorgan
0:18:48 > 0:18:53and Angharad was part of those activities.
0:18:53 > 0:18:58More than 150 events took place in the Vale of Glamorgan region.
0:18:58 > 0:19:00Before the Eisteddfod visited?
0:19:00 > 0:19:02Before the Eisteddfod and in the lead up to it,
0:19:02 > 0:19:04from two years before it was held.
0:19:04 > 0:19:10That is a big number of events which are held in the Welsh language.
0:19:10 > 0:19:15But do you have to go to a specific region to hold those events?
0:19:15 > 0:19:18Couldn't it be like the Show, for example?
0:19:19 > 0:19:23It's Gwynedd's turn this year and the events will be held there?
0:19:24 > 0:19:29Maybe it's true about the Show but I don't think we'd have the
0:19:29 > 0:19:33same response if that were to happen with the National Eisteddfod.
0:19:33 > 0:19:37Can I jump in? We've talked about what happens before the Eisteddfod.
0:19:37 > 0:19:41Is there any evidence that it influences that specific area?
0:19:41 > 0:19:46Legacy is always mentioned. Is that just myth?
0:19:46 > 0:19:50No, no, not at all.
0:19:50 > 0:19:55If you go back many years, here in Montgomeryshire one of things
0:19:55 > 0:19:59that stands out is Cwmni Theatr Maldwyn.
0:19:59 > 0:20:01Cwmni Theatr Maldwyn
0:20:01 > 0:20:05was started for the Machyhnlleth National Eisteddfod in 1981.
0:20:05 > 0:20:08That was the Maldwyn Eisteddfod.
0:20:08 > 0:20:12So, all kinds of things like that start up
0:20:12 > 0:20:14as a result of the Eisteddfod.
0:20:14 > 0:20:17Just this year, look at what's happened in Ebbw Vale
0:20:17 > 0:20:20with Only Boys Aloud and so forth.
0:20:20 > 0:20:22We accept this is your argument.
0:20:22 > 0:20:25You enjoy travelling and you want the Eisteddfod to continue moving.
0:20:25 > 0:20:29But we're in a different era these days when it comes to costs,
0:20:29 > 0:20:31the economy, cuts.
0:20:31 > 0:20:37Would this be a way of saving money by having two permanent sites?
0:20:37 > 0:20:42Well, this comes to the surface time and again.
0:20:42 > 0:20:45We have been discussing this internally.
0:20:45 > 0:20:51You'd need to buy a 300 acre sites in two areas.
0:20:51 > 0:20:55You'd have to find somewhere close to a town and a road network,
0:20:55 > 0:20:57maybe with a railway close by.
0:20:57 > 0:21:01People's expectations are very high
0:21:01 > 0:21:06so you'd have to put that infrastructure in.
0:21:06 > 0:21:11We estimate the cost of doing that for two sites,
0:21:11 > 0:21:14are you sitting down,
0:21:14 > 0:21:16in the region of £60 million.
0:21:16 > 0:21:19That's a huge amount of money.
0:21:19 > 0:21:25The Welsh Government gives something in the region of £500,000.
0:21:25 > 0:21:28You can work out the sum to make sure the Eisteddfod
0:21:28 > 0:21:31can continue for years to come.
0:21:31 > 0:21:34Alun Davies, does that idea appeal to you in an age of cuts?
0:21:36 > 0:21:38On a personal level, no, it doesn't.
0:21:38 > 0:21:41I know Roy Noble is leading a group of people
0:21:41 > 0:21:43who are looking into this and considering this.
0:21:43 > 0:21:46I look forward to reading their conclusions
0:21:46 > 0:21:49after the Denbigh Eisteddfod later on in the year.
0:21:49 > 0:21:52Can I say this, I represent a constituency
0:21:52 > 0:21:54where about five per cent of the people speak Welsh.
0:21:54 > 0:21:58I remember the impact the Eisteddfod had on Ebbw Vale.
0:21:58 > 0:22:01It was the first time that many people in Ebbw Vale
0:22:01 > 0:22:04and Tredegar got to hear Welsh on the streets.
0:22:04 > 0:22:07It was the first time they went onto the Maes.
0:22:07 > 0:22:11It is important to me that the Eisteddfod visits areas
0:22:11 > 0:22:15like Blaenau Gwent and people get to be a part
0:22:15 > 0:22:18of the Welsh speaking community.
0:22:18 > 0:22:22It is important for that the Eisteddfod continues to travel.
0:22:22 > 0:22:25But will the money be there to support the Eisteddfod?
0:22:25 > 0:22:30It is difficult. I'm looking forward to hear what Roy Noble has to say.
0:22:30 > 0:22:36That report is expected in September. Trefor, you asked the question.
0:22:36 > 0:22:38Are you in favour?
0:22:38 > 0:22:41I admire what Hywel's just said.
0:22:41 > 0:22:45For years I have been agreeing with him.
0:22:47 > 0:22:52I happen to be a member of the Eisteddfod Council
0:22:52 > 0:22:56and the figures that we've received...
0:22:58 > 0:23:00..of expenditure shocks a person.
0:23:00 > 0:23:04Truly, it shocks a person.
0:23:04 > 0:23:07The figures for holding the Eisteddfod?
0:23:07 > 0:23:11A lot of that money is hidden,
0:23:11 > 0:23:16to prepare the site, we don't see it.
0:23:16 > 0:23:22But Hywel gave you a shocking number to buy a permanent site.
0:23:25 > 0:23:29I'd like to thank Hywel for all the hard work he's done over the years.
0:23:29 > 0:23:31Thank you, Hywel.
0:23:34 > 0:23:37I hope he has a happy retirement.
0:23:37 > 0:23:41Oh, you've revealed something to the nation there. In the back row, Glyn.
0:23:41 > 0:23:44Should it travel or a permanent site?
0:23:44 > 0:23:47I think it's important it continues to travel.
0:23:47 > 0:23:51But the question I've got is has it grown too big to reach
0:23:51 > 0:23:53every part of Wales?
0:23:53 > 0:23:55That is a cause for concern for me.
0:23:57 > 0:24:02There are areas that would wish to host it but due to the Eisteddfod's
0:24:02 > 0:24:08size, it's grown too big or that's the reason we're given.
0:24:08 > 0:24:12Many thanks. Gwenllian in the front row. What do you think?
0:24:12 > 0:24:15To me the Eisteddfod's legacy is all important
0:24:15 > 0:24:20and the fact you get to enjoy visiting different areas of Wales.
0:24:20 > 0:24:23But it's also important that the Eisteddfod doesn't concentrate
0:24:23 > 0:24:25on events on the Maes in the evenings.
0:24:25 > 0:24:28Nearby towns and villages should feel
0:24:28 > 0:24:30the National Eisteddfod's benefit.
0:24:30 > 0:24:33I think that is something the Eisteddfod
0:24:33 > 0:24:36and the organisers should be aware of.
0:24:36 > 0:24:41Despite the joy of being on the Maes late at night the local villages
0:24:41 > 0:24:46and people should benefit from that legacy in their communities.
0:24:46 > 0:24:47That is a fair point.
0:24:47 > 0:24:50Angharad, as another keen Eisteddfod-goer, that is a point.
0:24:50 > 0:24:54People nowadays tend to, as Gwenllian suggests, stay on the Maes
0:24:54 > 0:24:59and don't possibly visit the nearby communities.
0:24:59 > 0:25:04I do think that the Eisteddfod has benefited and still benefits
0:25:04 > 0:25:07the Vale of Glamorgan where the Eisteddfod was held last year.
0:25:07 > 0:25:10I was on the committee so I can talk from personal experience.
0:25:10 > 0:25:14If it was centralised how an earth would you inspire,
0:25:14 > 0:25:18for example, non-Welsh speaking parents of the Flower Girls,
0:25:18 > 0:25:23all of the non-Welsh speaking stewards as well as the people
0:25:23 > 0:25:26who don't speak Welsh but who donated huge amounts of money
0:25:26 > 0:25:32towards the Eisteddfod if the festival is miles away?
0:25:32 > 0:25:34That would be impossible.
0:25:34 > 0:25:39Centralising the Eisteddfod would not only shrink the festival,
0:25:39 > 0:25:41the language and the culture,
0:25:41 > 0:25:45but would make sure that the Welsh language and culture
0:25:45 > 0:25:50wouldn't be seen in more Anglicised areas like the Vale of Glamorgan.
0:25:50 > 0:25:56I'd like to ask what an earth is the Welsh Government motive?
0:25:56 > 0:26:01The Education Minister Leighton Andrews has set up this taskforce.
0:26:01 > 0:26:06Doesn't an Education Minister have more to do to look after
0:26:06 > 0:26:09the education of this country and make sure our children
0:26:09 > 0:26:11get the right education, rather than messing around
0:26:11 > 0:26:14with a successful and flourishing festival.
0:26:17 > 0:26:20But he's also the minister for language
0:26:20 > 0:26:23and that's part of the Government's expenditure on language
0:26:23 > 0:26:28and as a result he has to consider if the money's spent wisely.
0:26:28 > 0:26:31But the Government spends a lot of money on other festivals.
0:26:31 > 0:26:34Why not establish a taskforce to every one of them?
0:26:34 > 0:26:35Answer that Alun Davies.
0:26:35 > 0:26:37We're cooperating with the Eisteddfod
0:26:37 > 0:26:40to make secure its future.
0:26:40 > 0:26:42I think the Welsh Government is responsible in that matter.
0:26:42 > 0:26:45I'm shocked anyone would suggest otherwise.
0:26:45 > 0:26:47But am I right in saying the Eisteddfod receives 15%
0:26:47 > 0:26:53from the Government coffers which proves it is successful as it is?
0:26:53 > 0:26:56Nobody's said it isn't successful.
0:26:56 > 0:26:59People want it to be successful in the future too.
0:26:59 > 0:27:03The grants we get, the total amount of grants we receive,
0:27:03 > 0:27:07from central government and local government, totals about 22%.
0:27:07 > 0:27:10The rest we have to find ourselves.
0:27:11 > 0:27:15Does the Eisteddfod group sigh when they hear
0:27:15 > 0:27:18- there's another review on the Eisteddfod?- Yes, rather.
0:27:18 > 0:27:22I've been working for the Eisteddfod now, this is my 20th year,
0:27:22 > 0:27:26and we've had several reviews during that time.
0:27:26 > 0:27:29Every one have concluded with the same message
0:27:29 > 0:27:34for the Assembly Government, they are getting their money's worth.
0:27:34 > 0:27:38Yet again, we've faced cuts.
0:27:38 > 0:27:41Glyn Davies, do you go to the Eisteddfod?
0:27:41 > 0:27:43No, but I like it.
0:27:43 > 0:27:47I am a traditional man and it is traditional to see
0:27:47 > 0:27:51the Eisteddfod travelling all over Wales.
0:27:51 > 0:27:54That's the way I feel.
0:27:54 > 0:27:59But there is a question of cost, whether it costs too much.
0:27:59 > 0:28:04I remember when holding the National Eisteddfod at Builth Wells
0:28:04 > 0:28:08every year was considered, on the Royal Welsh Showground.
0:28:08 > 0:28:09I remember talking about that.
0:28:09 > 0:28:13The talks lasted six moths and then it was decided the Eisteddfod
0:28:13 > 0:28:15had been travelling around Wales
0:28:15 > 0:28:18and if we stop that, people would turn against it
0:28:18 > 0:28:21and it wouldn't help the Welsh language as it does now.
0:28:21 > 0:28:23I want it to carry on like that.
0:28:23 > 0:28:26If the taskforce recommends something like this,
0:28:26 > 0:28:30two permanent sites but it also travels every other year.
0:28:32 > 0:28:34What would your response be? Hywel.
0:28:34 > 0:28:38I'd still say we should be travelling.
0:28:38 > 0:28:41- Angharad?- Write to the taskforce.
0:28:41 > 0:28:45You've got until the end of March to say you want it to travel.
0:28:45 > 0:28:48- Alun Davies?- I want the Eisteddfod to be a success for my children.
0:28:48 > 0:28:52I'm ready to back any step that will secure that.
0:28:52 > 0:28:57- That's what the people of Wales want us to do.- Thank you.
0:28:57 > 0:28:59Let's move on to the next question that's asked by Emyr Jones.
0:28:59 > 0:29:02What's your question?
0:29:02 > 0:29:05Why is the government wasting so much time
0:29:05 > 0:29:09discussing a measure to give gay couples the right to marry?
0:29:09 > 0:29:14Why is the government wasting so much time discussing a measure
0:29:14 > 0:29:16to give gay couples the right to marry?
0:29:16 > 0:29:21Glyn Davies. You voted against this, if I remember.
0:29:21 > 0:29:23Yes.
0:29:23 > 0:29:29I agree with the question. I didn't want to see this.
0:29:29 > 0:29:32- Wasting time? - That's what I think.
0:29:32 > 0:29:36But we have to remember that many people throughout Britain
0:29:36 > 0:29:38think this is an important matter.
0:29:38 > 0:29:45In Westminster this week, MPs wanted to take part in this debate
0:29:45 > 0:29:51more than any other I've seen in a while. It's important...
0:29:51 > 0:29:54How can you say they wasted time?
0:29:54 > 0:29:57- So many wanted to contribute. - That's what I think.
0:30:00 > 0:30:03I want to see the government concentrating on the economy
0:30:03 > 0:30:07and more important things. But I am in a minority, that is the point.
0:30:07 > 0:30:10Most people feel different, and after a vote
0:30:10 > 0:30:15we have to redefine the word "marriage" but I also have to
0:30:15 > 0:30:20say that most people disagree with me, and I am in a minority.
0:30:20 > 0:30:24So apart from this idea of wasting time,
0:30:24 > 0:30:26why were you against the measure essentially?
0:30:26 > 0:30:31I think...
0:30:31 > 0:30:34I'm not ready to redefine the word marriage.
0:30:34 > 0:30:38It has meant something to people over the centuries...
0:30:38 > 0:30:42What is that? A man and wife?
0:30:42 > 0:30:43That's it.
0:30:43 > 0:30:46And those boundaries cannot be extended?
0:30:46 > 0:30:54If it becomes law, it changes the meaning of the word,
0:30:54 > 0:30:56and I don't support that.
0:30:56 > 0:30:58But most people disagree with me.
0:30:58 > 0:31:00Why did you ask the question, Emyr Jones?
0:31:00 > 0:31:04I think it's a complete waste of time.
0:31:04 > 0:31:06I don't care what they want to.
0:31:06 > 0:31:09If two men or women want to live together, I couldn't give two hoots.
0:31:09 > 0:31:13But when it becomes important enough for the government to waste
0:31:13 > 0:31:16such a lot of time on, that are more important things.
0:31:16 > 0:31:20Yes, too many other things. Did I see somebody else's hand?
0:31:20 > 0:31:23Let's go over to Angharad Mair.
0:31:23 > 0:31:26I read an interesting article in the paper last week
0:31:26 > 0:31:30written by former Tory MP Matthew Parris, who is himself gay,
0:31:30 > 0:31:36discussing the four former Tory MPs back in 1966, who are still alive,
0:31:36 > 0:31:42and who voted against the right for gay people to have relationships,
0:31:42 > 0:31:47and he said that time had now proved that they had made an awful mistake.
0:31:47 > 0:31:50I also believe that Glyn Davies, and others who voted the same way
0:31:50 > 0:31:53as him, will come to realise very soon that they have
0:31:53 > 0:31:59civilised society in the 21st-century a bad turn.
0:31:59 > 0:32:04Several people have talked about the sanctity of marriage.
0:32:04 > 0:32:06Yet on the other hand,
0:32:06 > 0:32:10more people get divorced in Britain than in any other European country.
0:32:10 > 0:32:1332 percent of Welsh people in the last census said
0:32:13 > 0:32:15they had no religion.
0:32:15 > 0:32:19I watched CF99 last night,
0:32:19 > 0:32:23and MP Jonathan Edwards suggested that some of the Tory MPs
0:32:23 > 0:32:31from Wales had been influenced by the party in Wales to vote as they did.
0:32:31 > 0:32:33If that is true, I think all of us have to ask the question,
0:32:33 > 0:32:34and to think about the fact -
0:32:37 > 0:32:43if we want to be part of a civilised society that shows tolerance
0:32:43 > 0:32:48and equality, what on earth is wrong with letting two
0:32:48 > 0:32:55adults in a marriage to be partners in a loving relationship?
0:32:55 > 0:33:00Nothing. I'm glad... I'm glad that the debate has happened,
0:33:00 > 0:33:03because sometimes even though the economy is important,
0:33:03 > 0:33:05and all kinds of other things - sometimes,
0:33:05 > 0:33:06it is important to change society.
0:33:06 > 0:33:10Perhaps Glyn Davies was reflecting the opinion of the people
0:33:10 > 0:33:11of Montgomeryshire.
0:33:11 > 0:33:15He had his finger on the pulse of the Montgomeryshire people.
0:33:15 > 0:33:17I have to say, it is my opinion.
0:33:17 > 0:33:21Before I was elected to be an MP, people asked me the question, and
0:33:21 > 0:33:25I replied, I'm not happy to redefine the meaning of the word marriage.
0:33:25 > 0:33:30That was my opinion before I was elected, and I still stick to that.
0:33:30 > 0:33:34People in Montgomeryshire agree with me, and if I didn't do
0:33:34 > 0:33:38that by which go against what I had said, and I'm not ready to do that.
0:33:38 > 0:33:41There are some hands up in the audience. How about it?
0:33:41 > 0:33:43It's an interesting subject.
0:33:43 > 0:33:47On the one hand, the law of the land is going to catch up with real life.
0:33:49 > 0:33:51People are living like this,
0:33:51 > 0:33:55we have to acknowledge that we're not living at the beginning
0:33:55 > 0:33:56of the 20th century,
0:33:58 > 0:34:01and that we have to go further in order to disengage from tradition.
0:34:04 > 0:34:07What part do religion and government have to play?
0:34:09 > 0:34:11They have to be separated completely,
0:34:11 > 0:34:15so that people like me, who say that we have no religion... Why is it
0:34:17 > 0:34:19still part of schools curriculum
0:34:19 > 0:34:21that we have two have religious education
0:34:21 > 0:34:25completely exactly in the same way as we separate old
0:34:25 > 0:34:28morality from the way people can live today?
0:34:28 > 0:34:32So you are very glad that David Cameron pushed this measure ahead?
0:34:33 > 0:34:37I was very surprised that Tories would say such a thing,
0:34:37 > 0:34:40and that's why I think that what they're doing
0:34:40 > 0:34:42is catching up with reality.
0:34:42 > 0:34:45They are about six years behind the times, but nevertheless...
0:34:45 > 0:34:50OK. You here.
0:34:50 > 0:34:53I agree with Mr Glyn Davies.
0:34:54 > 0:34:58I feel that marriage between a man and a woman,
0:34:58 > 0:35:00is to bring up a family,
0:35:00 > 0:35:03with a mother and a father and everything else.
0:35:03 > 0:35:07I agree with civil partnerships, and when you say that equality
0:35:07 > 0:35:10is there, well, they have it in a civil partnership.
0:35:10 > 0:35:13Everything that a husband and wife have.
0:35:13 > 0:35:16So why do they want to get married? I don't understand it.
0:35:16 > 0:35:18And it's a slippery slope.
0:35:18 > 0:35:22When we start to say civil partnerships, that's the end of it.
0:35:22 > 0:35:25But oh no, it goes further. What will be next?
0:35:25 > 0:35:28The churches and everybody else doing it.
0:35:28 > 0:35:31Soon men will be able to have two or three wives.
0:35:31 > 0:35:36Well, civil rights... And it'll go on to Europe,
0:35:36 > 0:35:38the churches will have to do it and all.
0:35:38 > 0:35:41Very quickly, why do you object from going from civil
0:35:41 > 0:35:44partnership to the word marriage?
0:35:44 > 0:35:48Because marriage means a man and a woman, a husband and wife,
0:35:48 > 0:35:51and in our services, we say husband and wife.
0:35:51 > 0:35:54What are you going to call two men? A husband and wife?
0:35:54 > 0:35:59What words will you use? Partner, perhaps?
0:35:59 > 0:36:01But partner means something very different.
0:36:01 > 0:36:04Thank you very much. Up here?
0:36:04 > 0:36:09There was a lot of talk during the debate about human rights.
0:36:09 > 0:36:14But to me, marriage is a matter of the rights of children.
0:36:14 > 0:36:18The purpose of marriage essentially is to protect children.
0:36:18 > 0:36:24We live in a country which is not concerned enough about children.
0:36:24 > 0:36:32Children's rights have been eroded, because we've devalued marriage.
0:36:33 > 0:36:39We are celebrating our gold wedding this year,
0:36:39 > 0:36:42I really appreciate the idea of marriage.
0:36:44 > 0:36:46Thank you. Congratulations. Yes?
0:36:46 > 0:36:50I think the only reason why we're talking about this tonight
0:36:50 > 0:36:54is that the Tories and David Cameron are so desperate for votes,
0:36:54 > 0:36:57this hides the fact that the economy is a mess,
0:36:57 > 0:36:59and I think I have twigged,
0:36:59 > 0:37:01there are people here who perhaps haven't been
0:37:01 > 0:37:04affected by the recession, and this is going to please them,
0:37:04 > 0:37:08and they're going to get their votes in the next election.
0:37:08 > 0:37:11That's the only reason they've brought this up.
0:37:11 > 0:37:16A fair point, but there is a Tory councillor sitting in front of you.
0:37:16 > 0:37:19Tonight I agree with Angharad.
0:37:19 > 0:37:23The churches and chapels should be more worried about the fact
0:37:23 > 0:37:26that half our children are born outside of wedlock these days.
0:37:26 > 0:37:29We should be more concerned about that than being
0:37:29 > 0:37:33concerned about what's being asked in Westminster this week.
0:37:33 > 0:37:35Hywel Wyn Edwards?
0:37:35 > 0:37:39The question was, why are we wasting so much time on this?
0:37:39 > 0:37:42And I would say, yes - it is a waste of time, really.
0:37:42 > 0:37:45There are far more important things that the government should be
0:37:45 > 0:37:48addressing rather than this particular matter.
0:37:48 > 0:37:52At the end of the day, it's not such a crucially important matter.
0:37:52 > 0:37:54So you agree with him?
0:37:54 > 0:37:56No, not really.
0:37:56 > 0:37:59I wouldn't have voted against him, because I think he's right,
0:37:59 > 0:38:02whatever happens, that the individual should have that choice.
0:38:02 > 0:38:04Angharad talked about divorce.
0:38:04 > 0:38:10The plain truth is that marriage in fact... There are fewer people
0:38:10 > 0:38:14getting married these days than for many many years.
0:38:14 > 0:38:19My concern is that once this right is introduced,
0:38:19 > 0:38:24how many gay couples will actually want to get married?
0:38:24 > 0:38:27I doubt if people will rush into this.
0:38:27 > 0:38:31But they are entitled to the right to do so.
0:38:31 > 0:38:33The right to do so is fine.
0:38:33 > 0:38:36But why waste all this time to discuss this one matter?
0:38:36 > 0:38:38Do you agree, Alun?
0:38:38 > 0:38:40No, I'm proud of this vote.
0:38:40 > 0:38:44I think it's incredibly important to acknowledge everybody's right
0:38:44 > 0:38:47to love and to marry whoever we so choose.
0:38:47 > 0:38:50It's very important indeed.
0:38:50 > 0:38:53I think it's very disappointing that the Tory party has
0:38:53 > 0:38:57turned its back on today's society in the way that it has,
0:38:57 > 0:39:01and also to discover that you have a British government
0:39:01 > 0:39:04who does not realise that the Church in Wales is not
0:39:04 > 0:39:07part of the Church of England, which, to me, is incredible.
0:39:07 > 0:39:11So it is very important that this vote does not just reflect
0:39:11 > 0:39:15a vote in parliament this week, but also reflects the way that
0:39:15 > 0:39:18society is changing and will be changing in the future.
0:39:18 > 0:39:20I think we have a better society
0:39:20 > 0:39:24because of what happened this week, then we were last week.
0:39:24 > 0:39:27Let's leave that subject there. Thank you for your contributions.
0:39:27 > 0:39:28Let's go to our last break.
0:39:28 > 0:39:30Join us again in Welshpool after the adverts.
0:39:46 > 0:39:48Welcome back.
0:39:48 > 0:39:53You're watching this week's Pawb a'i Farn in Welshpool.
0:39:53 > 0:39:55We've now reached the topic that are mentioned at the beginning
0:39:55 > 0:39:56of the programme.
0:39:56 > 0:40:00A question from Miriam Hollard. what's your question?
0:40:00 > 0:40:05It's disgusting that the Welsh government is not protecting
0:40:05 > 0:40:10our communities from the schemes to build pylons in mid Wales.
0:40:10 > 0:40:13We are facing a second Tryweryn in this area.
0:40:13 > 0:40:16Thank you. That's been said before on Pawb a'i Farn.
0:40:16 > 0:40:19It's disgusting that the government of Wales is not protecting
0:40:19 > 0:40:23our communities from the schemes to build pylons in mid Wales.
0:40:23 > 0:40:28We are facing a second Tryweryn in this area.
0:40:28 > 0:40:30Angharad Mair how would you answer this?
0:40:30 > 0:40:34There are certainly good reasons why it's possible to compare
0:40:34 > 0:40:37the Tryweryn disaster with the windmills
0:40:37 > 0:40:40which are desecrating our land at this moment.
0:40:40 > 0:40:42There are two truly important reasons
0:40:42 > 0:40:44why we should fight these with one voice.
0:40:44 > 0:40:48The first is that that is a very real danger, as English councils
0:40:48 > 0:40:52refuse them, that they will take advantage of Wales, and there
0:40:52 > 0:40:57will be more of them here, but the second reason is the most important.
0:40:57 > 0:41:04Wales gets very little economic benefit from all of these windmills.
0:41:04 > 0:41:07Take the wind farm that's been in the news today -
0:41:07 > 0:41:09Mynydd y Gwair by Swansea. Who owns the land?
0:41:09 > 0:41:15The Duke of Beaufort, one of England's richest landowners.
0:41:15 > 0:41:20Who's constructing the windmills? A major international company.
0:41:20 > 0:41:23Why are they joining forces to do that in Swansea?
0:41:23 > 0:41:26Because they going to make a fortune.
0:41:26 > 0:41:31We're paying £500 million every year in grants for people to
0:41:31 > 0:41:35construct wind farms in Wales, but they don't live in Wales,
0:41:35 > 0:41:37they don't live close to us, and they don't have two suffer
0:41:37 > 0:41:41having their land and their heritage stolen from them.
0:41:41 > 0:41:44But we need electricity from somewhere. These will supply it.
0:41:44 > 0:41:49Take somewhere like Germany, where 60 percent of windmills belong
0:41:49 > 0:41:53to the people, to the communities where they are built.
0:41:53 > 0:41:56The tax the big companies have to pay goes to those communities,
0:41:56 > 0:41:59so this economic benefit.
0:41:59 > 0:42:02But our problem is that back in 2005
0:42:02 > 0:42:05when Carwyn Jones as Minister of Energy at that time,
0:42:05 > 0:42:09established Tan 8, that wasn't scrutinised in enough detail,
0:42:09 > 0:42:12and what is happening now is that it's easy for the English
0:42:12 > 0:42:15government to take advantage of this, and we're being walked over,
0:42:15 > 0:42:20as happened in Capel Celyn 50 years ago - it's happening again today.
0:42:20 > 0:42:26Thanks. Over to Alun Davies. The policy wasn't considered enough.
0:42:26 > 0:42:29I think it's important that this policy is decentralised,
0:42:29 > 0:42:30and that we make these decisions
0:42:30 > 0:42:34wherever these proposals are in Wales.
0:42:34 > 0:42:38I think it's very important that we make these decisions in Wales
0:42:38 > 0:42:41and we as a government have asked the government in Westminster
0:42:41 > 0:42:46to decentralise these powers several times.
0:42:46 > 0:42:51Can I ask why - Labour were in power in Westminster for 13 years.
0:42:51 > 0:42:52Why wasn't it decentralised then?
0:42:52 > 0:42:55I have already said, we have said several times,
0:42:55 > 0:43:00and when I was a backbencher, as suggested that we decentralise
0:43:00 > 0:43:03these powers when Labour was in power,
0:43:03 > 0:43:07and we have done so several times, and I hope that we will see that.
0:43:07 > 0:43:10With regards to the pylons, and the wind farms, are you for them
0:43:10 > 0:43:12or against them?
0:43:12 > 0:43:15I want to see... I am in favour of wind power.
0:43:15 > 0:43:19I'm not against it at all.
0:43:19 > 0:43:24I have launched a consultation about the rural development
0:43:24 > 0:43:26scheme during these last few weeks,
0:43:26 > 0:43:29and I want to see how we can develop sustainable local
0:43:29 > 0:43:32energy for communities, especially in rural Wales.
0:43:32 > 0:43:35But the point is, it's very important that we
0:43:35 > 0:43:40profit from that, and that we as Welsh local communities can
0:43:40 > 0:43:43control the kinds of developments that we're seeing.
0:43:46 > 0:43:49Thank you very much. Glyn?
0:43:49 > 0:43:54The only reason that the Welsh government wants to have power
0:43:54 > 0:43:58over this subject is to destroy mid-Wales. That's the only reason.
0:43:58 > 0:44:01The Tan 8 policy came out.
0:44:01 > 0:44:06What they wanted to is to put these turbines and a line to Shrewsbury
0:44:06 > 0:44:08will come with it, and it will destroy mid-Wales.
0:44:08 > 0:44:14That's the reason why... I was ready to support seeing the powers
0:44:14 > 0:44:18being given to the assembly before Tan 8 came.
0:44:18 > 0:44:22After that, I would sooner die than support seeing this power
0:44:22 > 0:44:25being given to the assembly, to destroy mid-Wales.
0:44:25 > 0:44:27That's what the policy of the Welsh government is.
0:44:27 > 0:44:30There is a chance to stop it in Westminster.
0:44:30 > 0:44:32That is absolute nonsense.
0:44:32 > 0:44:37Tan 8 will ensure that you don't have windmills everywhere.
0:44:37 > 0:44:40It will happen in specified places.
0:44:40 > 0:44:46And there will be limits on the number of developments.
0:44:46 > 0:44:49That's what Tan 8 is about. But I think that has been misunderstood.
0:44:49 > 0:44:53But there is no limit on fuel. Only on areas.
0:44:53 > 0:44:56Just a second. Let's hear from the audience.
0:44:56 > 0:45:01Gwern, in the back? From Llanfair Caereinion school?
0:45:01 > 0:45:05My family have lived in Montgomeryshire for centuries.
0:45:06 > 0:45:09To think that the serenity,
0:45:09 > 0:45:17of the valley, is to be destroyed by these massive pylons.
0:45:17 > 0:45:19Massive.
0:45:19 > 0:45:22They're just going to come through the valley,
0:45:22 > 0:45:25and apparently, the windmills
0:45:25 > 0:45:30as well, they've been one of the biggest models they have ever been.
0:45:30 > 0:45:38With these pylons, they're apparently bad for your health and everything.
0:45:41 > 0:45:43Thank you very much. Yes, your hand is up?
0:45:43 > 0:45:49This subject often comes up, because at one level it is very important.
0:45:49 > 0:45:53What I think is surprising,
0:45:53 > 0:45:58is that we're still talking as if it's a choice between this and what?
0:45:58 > 0:46:01We've got to have power.
0:46:01 > 0:46:06I want to see a huge social experiment to see what works.
0:46:06 > 0:46:09I don't think the existing framework which means that money is
0:46:09 > 0:46:13poured into the pockets of individuals is a good one,
0:46:13 > 0:46:14but we need an experiment,
0:46:14 > 0:46:17and we also need to ask the question -
0:46:17 > 0:46:19we all use electricity in this area,
0:46:19 > 0:46:22if Gwern wants to protect the valley, fair enough in principle,
0:46:22 > 0:46:24but if we have two have, for example,
0:46:24 > 0:46:28a second Drax - Drax is an enormous place, burning coal.
0:46:28 > 0:46:32If we need a second Drax, where will it go?
0:46:32 > 0:46:36Not in Montgomeryshire, I presume! How about it?
0:46:36 > 0:46:41I know why they chose this earlier, because the Labour government
0:46:41 > 0:46:46wasn't going to lose votes in Montgomeryshire.
0:46:46 > 0:46:49Do you think they were that cynical?
0:46:49 > 0:46:54It's no different to what happens in Westminster, is it?
0:46:54 > 0:47:02But the fact is that the windmills are not going to make the money back.
0:47:02 > 0:47:07We hear that they don't last very long these days.
0:47:07 > 0:47:13Of the windmills that was put up a year and a half ago,
0:47:13 > 0:47:20Two of them have had their blades broken off in six months.
0:47:20 > 0:47:22Hywel, let's hear from you.
0:47:22 > 0:47:27In my office in Mold I look out on a rather large pylon.
0:47:27 > 0:47:31It's not a very nice thing to look at all day.
0:47:31 > 0:47:35And I'm sure that all of you would agree, you wouldn't want to
0:47:35 > 0:47:40look at those out of your lounge window at any time.
0:47:40 > 0:47:44Having said that, the pylons carry power.
0:47:44 > 0:47:47The people of Snowdonia have been used to them for decades.
0:47:47 > 0:47:52Not everywhere. And why should we have to get used to them?
0:47:52 > 0:47:56If you go to England, you don't see many of these.
0:47:56 > 0:48:01If you travel around the country as I do, I travel quite a lot,
0:48:01 > 0:48:05though not on the A470 - I go the other way through England.
0:48:05 > 0:48:09You don't see the pylons. Where are they? They're still carrying power.
0:48:09 > 0:48:13They've been buried underground. Why can't we do that?
0:48:13 > 0:48:19With that question, we must finish tonight's programme.
0:48:19 > 0:48:21You can continue this discussion for another hour,
0:48:21 > 0:48:24but before that, we must say goodbye to the audience at home.
0:48:24 > 0:48:28Thank you all of you. Next week, we will be in Cardiff Bay. Goodbye.