0:00:24 > 0:00:28On our panel tonight, political commentator, Gareth Hughes,
0:00:28 > 0:00:31the Chair of Plaid Cymru, Helen Mary Jones,
0:00:31 > 0:00:35the accountant and Tory, Harri Lloyd Davies
0:00:35 > 0:00:39and Cardiff University lecturer, Simon Brooks.
0:00:39 > 0:00:41Give them a warm welcome.
0:00:41 > 0:00:43APPLAUSE
0:00:54 > 0:00:59Good evening and welcome to another episode of Pawb a'i Farn.
0:00:59 > 0:01:01I never get tired of saying that.
0:01:01 > 0:01:06We are in Cardiff Bay and in the most striking building
0:01:06 > 0:01:09we'll be broadcasting from this year.
0:01:09 > 0:01:14We've invited an audience of young people to the Senedd
0:01:14 > 0:01:20including students, school pupils and those making a living in the capital.
0:01:20 > 0:01:24It's an opportunity for the younger generation to have their say.
0:01:24 > 0:01:27Here are the addresses if you want to get in touch,
0:01:27 > 0:01:30especially if you want to come to one of our next two shows
0:01:30 > 0:01:32in Ystrad Rhondda and Carmarthen.
0:01:32 > 0:01:35What will we be discussing tonight?
0:01:35 > 0:01:40Let's get our first question from Ben. What is your question?
0:01:40 > 0:01:44People have been shocked by the horsemeat scandal.
0:01:44 > 0:01:48How can it be prevented from entering the food chain?
0:01:48 > 0:01:51People have been shocked by the horsemeat scandal.
0:01:51 > 0:01:56How can it be prevented from entering the food chain,
0:01:56 > 0:01:58or being called beef!
0:01:58 > 0:02:01Harri Lloyd Davies.
0:02:01 > 0:02:06It's important for us to understand where our food comes from.
0:02:06 > 0:02:10If you're not happy that Tesco or wherever is not safe,
0:02:10 > 0:02:13then go down to the local butcher
0:02:13 > 0:02:17and they will know exactly where the meat has come from, even which farm.
0:02:17 > 0:02:21It's safer to buy local produce. That is the easiest thing to do.
0:02:21 > 0:02:28It's also important to remember that we don't have much choice sometimes.
0:02:28 > 0:02:33That's why local authorities across Wales need to make sure
0:02:33 > 0:02:39that they carry out assessments on their meat suppliers
0:02:39 > 0:02:45to make sure it's healthy, and is beef rather than horsemeat.
0:02:45 > 0:02:46Helen Mary Jones.
0:02:46 > 0:02:50I think it's important that Harri accepts that part of the problem
0:02:50 > 0:02:55is that the Food Standards Agency has had budget cuts.
0:02:55 > 0:02:59They don't have as much power to start inquiries,
0:02:59 > 0:03:02without someone complaining in the first place.
0:03:02 > 0:03:06But I do agree that the food chain has to be sorted out.
0:03:06 > 0:03:08If you look at one of the cases,
0:03:08 > 0:03:12there were eight steps between the farm and Findus.
0:03:12 > 0:03:14Seven different countries.
0:03:14 > 0:03:17Even if it's not deliberate,
0:03:17 > 0:03:20you can see a lot of problems arising.
0:03:20 > 0:03:26I do agree with the idea of local produce, but that can be expensive.
0:03:26 > 0:03:31We need more investment in developing local co-operatives
0:03:31 > 0:03:35where people can buy from local farms
0:03:35 > 0:03:40but not as expensive as a local butcher, which can be pricey.
0:03:40 > 0:03:42But we have to face facts.
0:03:42 > 0:03:46Food can be expensive. We have to be ready to pay more.
0:03:46 > 0:03:49We have this obsession of buying food as cheaply as possible.
0:03:49 > 0:03:53It's OK for middle-class people to say that,
0:03:53 > 0:03:58who can spend more on having Sunday lunch at home
0:03:58 > 0:04:03and not going out but many families are struggling.
0:04:03 > 0:04:06What I'd like to see, and Plaid Cymru has been calling for this,
0:04:06 > 0:04:13is more cookery lessons at school so that people understand how to cook.
0:04:13 > 0:04:17I've seen good examples of things like that happening in Llanelli
0:04:17 > 0:04:20- the other communities as well. - I think that is a good point.
0:04:20 > 0:04:24The cheapest meat at the butcher's is usually offal.
0:04:24 > 0:04:29It's cheap and tasty but you never buy it in the supermarket.
0:04:29 > 0:04:31But what about Helen Mary Jones' point
0:04:31 > 0:04:36that the Food Standards Agency has been broken up.
0:04:36 > 0:04:39There are a lot of problems.
0:04:39 > 0:04:42We don't know how long this has been going on.
0:04:42 > 0:04:48- In Ireland...- But your Government has given the agency less power?
0:04:48 > 0:04:51I don't know if less power is the problem. They just haven't...
0:04:51 > 0:04:55- It's a simple fact... - This has been going on for years.
0:04:55 > 0:04:58They have taken power away from the Food Standards Agency
0:04:58 > 0:05:02and given it to the Agriculture Department in Westminster.
0:05:02 > 0:05:07We also need to ask, where has the Welsh Government been in this?
0:05:07 > 0:05:11We know that food safety has been devolved
0:05:11 > 0:05:15and the Food Standards Agency is partly answerable to the Assembly.
0:05:15 > 0:05:18I'd like to ask, what have they been doing?
0:05:18 > 0:05:21We might get the answer from Gareth Hughes.
0:05:21 > 0:05:24I don't think there's a problem.
0:05:24 > 0:05:26No problem?
0:05:26 > 0:05:29I was in Verona two years ago
0:05:29 > 0:05:32and I ate donkey meat and it was very tasty.
0:05:32 > 0:05:38The problem is that we have a tradition of eating some things
0:05:38 > 0:05:41but not other things.
0:05:41 > 0:05:44Horsemeat is cheap, it's tasty,
0:05:44 > 0:05:47and I don't see a problem.
0:05:47 > 0:05:50The only problem is that we don't label them properly.
0:05:50 > 0:05:52So there is a problem.
0:05:52 > 0:05:54The reason that problem has arisen
0:05:54 > 0:05:58is because we've run down local government.
0:05:58 > 0:06:03The local government went round abattoirs and assessed them
0:06:03 > 0:06:07but that has stopped now.
0:06:07 > 0:06:08We've made cuts.
0:06:08 > 0:06:15If we expect high standards, we have to pay people to supervise it.
0:06:15 > 0:06:17We're not paying.
0:06:17 > 0:06:22If we're not ready to do that, we shouldn't have this discussion.
0:06:22 > 0:06:23Simon Brooks.
0:06:23 > 0:06:28I quite like the idea of turning to the French way of eating.
0:06:28 > 0:06:30More horsemeat!
0:06:30 > 0:06:34- Have you ever tried it? - I've never tried horse.
0:06:34 > 0:06:37- I'd like to.- Or donkey?
0:06:37 > 0:06:44No, or cat or dog, or many other interesting foods.
0:06:44 > 0:06:49From our point of view, what's interesting to me,
0:06:49 > 0:06:52We have to have more regulation of the food industry,
0:06:52 > 0:06:56more visits by the Food Standards Agency,
0:06:56 > 0:07:01but I do think that we have to shoulder the blame as customers.
0:07:01 > 0:07:05I don't think that we can use this argument
0:07:05 > 0:07:09that we don't have enough money to make choices.
0:07:09 > 0:07:12Every crisis in the food industry...
0:07:12 > 0:07:18But Helen Mary Jones says it's OK for the middle-class to say that.
0:07:18 > 0:07:23It does hit people who are unemployed, people on low incomes,
0:07:23 > 0:07:27but there are many wealthy people in this country who can choose.
0:07:27 > 0:07:30Eating local produce is good for the environment,
0:07:30 > 0:07:33it's good for the economy and our health.
0:07:33 > 0:07:36Many farmers speak Welsh so it's good for the language.
0:07:36 > 0:07:38Tick, tick, tick.
0:07:38 > 0:07:44The Welsh Government should have a campaign for people to shop locally.
0:07:44 > 0:07:48But the customer has suffered and is disappointed with this news?
0:07:48 > 0:07:51Well, if they don't like eating horsemeat, that's true.
0:07:51 > 0:07:54It's important that we don't set any more regulations
0:07:54 > 0:07:58on the farmers and the factories.
0:07:58 > 0:08:04At the end of the day, 99% of people follow the regulations.
0:08:04 > 0:08:08It's just a minority that fail to follow the regulations.
0:08:08 > 0:08:12So you need to have strict regulations.
0:08:12 > 0:08:17Yes, they have to be strict and they have to be followed.
0:08:17 > 0:08:21We will need more regulations.
0:08:21 > 0:08:23I don't think we need more.
0:08:23 > 0:08:26We just need to make sure that the ones we have are followed.
0:08:26 > 0:08:30Following a scandal like this, there will be more regulation.
0:08:30 > 0:08:35That won't help Welsh farmers and people who work in the industry.
0:08:35 > 0:08:37The way to help Welsh farmers
0:08:37 > 0:08:40is to eat Welsh produce and shop locally.
0:08:40 > 0:08:43We need more regulation.
0:08:43 > 0:08:47But we have to buy from local food producers.
0:08:47 > 0:08:49In that way we support our local economy,
0:08:49 > 0:08:52our language and our health.
0:08:52 > 0:08:56So people need help to gain that access.
0:08:56 > 0:08:58If you live in the South Wales valleys,
0:08:58 > 0:09:01on a housing estate at the top of a hill,
0:09:01 > 0:09:04you can't even afford to go to Tesco to buy food,
0:09:04 > 0:09:06not to mention a market.
0:09:06 > 0:09:10We have to make sure that everyone has access to good local food.
0:09:10 > 0:09:14A lot of nonsense is spoken about this good local food.
0:09:14 > 0:09:18When I go out shopping to buy a meal,
0:09:18 > 0:09:21I want to buy something that I can have there and then.
0:09:21 > 0:09:26I will buy a lasagne, I don't know what's in it, but I'll eat it.
0:09:26 > 0:09:30That's the important thing...
0:09:30 > 0:09:34I'm sure you don't want it full of horse antibiotics!
0:09:34 > 0:09:38We're not all going to be master chefs.
0:09:38 > 0:09:44We buy a packet, we put it in the microwave and that is our meal.
0:09:44 > 0:09:46Most people eat like that.
0:09:46 > 0:09:49- Do you worry about the contents? - No, not at all!
0:09:49 > 0:09:51I'm still here!
0:09:51 > 0:09:55- You don't read the labels? - No, I'm not worried.
0:09:55 > 0:10:00It's the picture. If it looks tasty, I'll buy it.
0:10:00 > 0:10:05Can you help me, audience members?
0:10:05 > 0:10:08How do you shop locally in Cardiff?
0:10:08 > 0:10:13Are there small butchers in the capital city?
0:10:13 > 0:10:16One example in Cardiff is the market itself.
0:10:16 > 0:10:20You have a local butcher,
0:10:20 > 0:10:24people who sell fruit and vegetables.
0:10:24 > 0:10:30They can tell you where the meat has come from.
0:10:30 > 0:10:32It's not always more expensive.
0:10:32 > 0:10:35People expect it to be, but it is not always.
0:10:35 > 0:10:38Let me turn the audience.
0:10:38 > 0:10:41If horsemeat has gone into the food chain,
0:10:41 > 0:10:45what else has gone in that we are not aware of?
0:10:45 > 0:10:49Fair point. At the back.
0:10:49 > 0:10:53As someone who looked forward to eating horsemeat in Switzerland...
0:10:53 > 0:10:57- You've eaten it?- Yes.
0:10:57 > 0:10:59I'm worried that the supermarkets
0:10:59 > 0:11:02are not having the finger pointed at them.
0:11:02 > 0:11:05They have the big margins.
0:11:05 > 0:11:10I think they have a responsibility to put money into the system.
0:11:10 > 0:11:15They're to blame because they don't monitor what's going into the food.
0:11:15 > 0:11:18- So you have eaten horsemeat?- Yes.
0:11:18 > 0:11:21Who else has eaten horsemeat?
0:11:21 > 0:11:25Really? What was it like?
0:11:25 > 0:11:30I think... I think it tastes better than...
0:11:30 > 0:11:32I think it's my favourite meat.
0:11:32 > 0:11:36Your favourite?! What does it taste like?
0:11:36 > 0:11:39A bit like steak.
0:11:39 > 0:11:43- What does it taste like? - It isn't something odd.
0:11:43 > 0:11:45It just tastes like meat.
0:11:45 > 0:11:51Where I live, in Roath in Cardiff, we have plenty of butchers,
0:11:51 > 0:11:54but as a student with a limited income,
0:11:54 > 0:11:56it's difficult to buy things locally.
0:11:56 > 0:11:59I agree with Helen Mary
0:11:59 > 0:12:05that it has to be an affordable way to buy the local produce.
0:12:05 > 0:12:07It is difficult.
0:12:07 > 0:12:11Somebody living in the valleys, they don't all have the choice.
0:12:11 > 0:12:14You have to strengthen the system so that there is a Co-op.
0:12:14 > 0:12:17That will strengthen the communities in Wales.
0:12:17 > 0:12:21Ben, you asked the question, how would you answer it?
0:12:22 > 0:12:28I think it's important that people know what's in their food.
0:12:28 > 0:12:32I think there's a big responsibility...
0:12:33 > 0:12:36on the people who...
0:12:37 > 0:12:38Yes?
0:12:38 > 0:12:42We have to know what's in the food.
0:12:42 > 0:12:45Something has to be done about it.
0:12:45 > 0:12:47You are totally different to Gareth Hughes.
0:12:47 > 0:12:50And one more in the front row.
0:12:51 > 0:12:55I think there's a wider debate here.
0:12:55 > 0:12:57People across the world are starving
0:12:57 > 0:13:02and there are warnings that there isn't enough food.
0:13:02 > 0:13:06Does the panel think the Government should step in
0:13:06 > 0:13:10and look into introducing different foods in Britain
0:13:10 > 0:13:13due to that problem?
0:13:13 > 0:13:16I want to ask a question before we end this discussion.
0:13:16 > 0:13:23Is it time to devolve the Food Standards Agency's power
0:13:23 > 0:13:26so that this happens here?
0:13:26 > 0:13:28There was an opportunity
0:13:28 > 0:13:31when the Food Standards Agency was established
0:13:31 > 0:13:36for the Welsh Government to have an agency of its own.
0:13:36 > 0:13:41- It's a pity...- Could we do better?
0:13:41 > 0:13:44Is it being devolved a good thing in this case?
0:13:44 > 0:13:48I don't think that's the reason.
0:13:48 > 0:13:51We've seen pictures all over the world
0:13:51 > 0:13:56of our food industry in the dock over the last week.
0:13:56 > 0:14:01This will hit the Welsh food industry for years to come.
0:14:01 > 0:14:06We have a lot of work to do to rebuild our food industry.
0:14:06 > 0:14:07In a sentence.
0:14:07 > 0:14:11Yes, we should be devolving everything.
0:14:11 > 0:14:15It is silly that we have things in the agriculture industry
0:14:15 > 0:14:18which have been devolved and other things that have not.
0:14:18 > 0:14:19People are confused.
0:14:19 > 0:14:22No, I don't think it should be devolved.
0:14:22 > 0:14:24We should send it to Europe.
0:14:24 > 0:14:30The problem is spread over seven or eight countries.
0:14:30 > 0:14:33You can't control that from Wales.
0:14:33 > 0:14:39These food standards issues should be dealt with by Europe.
0:14:39 > 0:14:42Many thanks to the panel and the audience.
0:14:42 > 0:14:47Let's move on to the next question now.
0:14:47 > 0:14:51Unemployment figures for youngsters in Britain are worryingly high.
0:14:51 > 0:14:54How would the panel improve the situation?
0:14:54 > 0:14:57There we are, a question about your own generation. Thank you.
0:14:57 > 0:15:01Unemployment figures for young people in Britain are worryingly high.
0:15:01 > 0:15:05How would the panel improve the situation? Helen Mary Jones?
0:15:05 > 0:15:07Firstly, Plaid Cymru would agree with you
0:15:07 > 0:15:10that this is one of the main problems facing us as a country.
0:15:10 > 0:15:14Some older people, like myself, who grew up in the 1980s
0:15:14 > 0:15:18will remember that we had a generation which was forgotten.
0:15:18 > 0:15:22If you are out of work for a period of two or three years,
0:15:22 > 0:15:26it can become very difficult to get back in.
0:15:26 > 0:15:30That is why we in Plaid Cymru have a scheme to create green jobs.
0:15:30 > 0:15:33When we were in talks with the Welsh Government here
0:15:33 > 0:15:35about whether we would support their budget,
0:15:35 > 0:15:37we asked for 10,000 new apprenticeships
0:15:37 > 0:15:41to give young people an opportunity to come in to the market.
0:15:41 > 0:15:43What are these green jobs?
0:15:43 > 0:15:45There is a green plan to develop,
0:15:45 > 0:15:49within the water industry, for example,
0:15:49 > 0:15:51we aren't doing enough of it.
0:15:51 > 0:15:53I cannot go into detail,
0:15:53 > 0:15:57but there is a document with all the figures and costings in it.
0:15:57 > 0:16:00- Will this help the youngsters who cannot find a job?- It is one example.
0:16:00 > 0:16:03It is not going to be an answer to the whole problem.
0:16:03 > 0:16:05But I believe what's so frustrating
0:16:05 > 0:16:08is that we know the Welsh Government doesn't have
0:16:08 > 0:16:10all the tools that it should have
0:16:10 > 0:16:13when it comes to taxes and so on to create jobs.
0:16:13 > 0:16:15But it's very frustrating for us
0:16:15 > 0:16:18to see that they're not using the powers that they have.
0:16:18 > 0:16:21They could invest in capital projects
0:16:21 > 0:16:27which will create temporary jobs in the construction industry.
0:16:27 > 0:16:30And spend large sums of money which aren't there?
0:16:30 > 0:16:33The money is there, but it depends on how you spend it.
0:16:33 > 0:16:35Nobody said it was easy.
0:16:35 > 0:16:38Thanks to Harri and his crew, money is tight.
0:16:38 > 0:16:41But the question is, how will we invest that money?
0:16:41 > 0:16:44We in Plaid Cymru believe it is important that we
0:16:44 > 0:16:47invest in the long-term and not wait for England to give us the powers.
0:16:47 > 0:16:50- We must act now.- Helen, thank you.
0:16:50 > 0:16:53I'll come to you shortly, Harri. Gareth Hughes.
0:16:53 > 0:16:57I don't think you can deal with it by using little projects
0:16:57 > 0:16:59as the Welsh Government is doing.
0:16:59 > 0:17:04- So you agree with Helen, we need large projects?- Yes, well, no.
0:17:04 > 0:17:09What is needed... What this country has done is crazy.
0:17:09 > 0:17:14At a time of recession, you don't make cuts upon cuts.
0:17:14 > 0:17:18What you should do is spend and spend.
0:17:18 > 0:17:23That is the only way to get the economy to grow
0:17:23 > 0:17:26and that is the answer in the long-term.
0:17:26 > 0:17:28The economy has to grow so that people can have work.
0:17:28 > 0:17:32I can see Harri smiling without having to look at him.
0:17:32 > 0:17:34Which Government spent...?
0:17:34 > 0:17:38His Government's policy, what can we expect?
0:17:38 > 0:17:45Living standards have been down since 2005.
0:17:45 > 0:17:49Also, there are no prospects.
0:17:49 > 0:17:50As Sir Mervyn King said yesterday,
0:17:50 > 0:17:55there are no prospects for economic growth
0:17:55 > 0:18:01on this side of the next election.
0:18:01 > 0:18:02That is why he is in difficulty.
0:18:02 > 0:18:07The first thing, unfortunately, is the cuts are only just starting.
0:18:07 > 0:18:11- People say the cuts have been too harsh.- It's going to get worse.- Yes.
0:18:11 > 0:18:14It's easy for you to say we should have more debt,
0:18:14 > 0:18:17but you must remember that the people in this audience
0:18:17 > 0:18:19will have to pay off that debt in 20 years time.
0:18:19 > 0:18:23You cannot repay a debt unless you have money to repay it.
0:18:23 > 0:18:25That is the weakness.
0:18:25 > 0:18:29You don't understand that you must inflate the economy
0:18:29 > 0:18:31in order to repay the debt.
0:18:31 > 0:18:35You cannot repay a debt by making more and more cuts.
0:18:35 > 0:18:37We're not cutting money that we create,
0:18:37 > 0:18:40we're cutting money that we don't have.
0:18:40 > 0:18:43All the money was spent under the previous Labour Government.
0:18:43 > 0:18:46The money has gone. Now, we have to try to rebuild the economy.
0:18:46 > 0:18:48We're starting to see it.
0:18:48 > 0:18:51Confidence is beginning to return to the economy.
0:18:51 > 0:18:54We're not growing quickly enough and we need more growth.
0:18:54 > 0:18:56That is the way we create jobs for young people.
0:18:56 > 0:18:59Will that growth come from further cuts?
0:18:59 > 0:19:01You said we haven't seen the worst of it.
0:19:01 > 0:19:03What can we do? There's no money there.
0:19:03 > 0:19:05We don't want more debt, we can't afford the debt we have.
0:19:05 > 0:19:09We're going to do what Barack Obama has done in the US
0:19:09 > 0:19:12which is borrowing to invest, not borrowing to pay benefits
0:19:12 > 0:19:15which is what your Government is having to do.
0:19:15 > 0:19:19By returning to you points, Gareth. I would not disagree for one second,
0:19:19 > 0:19:21but this is where we are.
0:19:21 > 0:19:24We have a Welsh Government and they should do more.
0:19:24 > 0:19:27For every young person entering a job,
0:19:27 > 0:19:31the 10,000 apprenticeships we have worked out with the Government
0:19:31 > 0:19:35won't change everything for everyone but it will change the lives
0:19:35 > 0:19:38of those 10,000 people and that is worth doing.
0:19:38 > 0:19:42- Simon Brooks?- I don't believe we should be taking this
0:19:42 > 0:19:47in the direction of a discussion on a macro economic policy.
0:19:47 > 0:19:51The truth is, our society is uneven and unequal
0:19:51 > 0:19:53whatever the economic situation.
0:19:53 > 0:19:58We have seen basic maladministration when it comes to age.
0:19:58 > 0:20:04We have transferred society's wealth from youngsters
0:20:04 > 0:20:09to the baby boom generation, people of Dewi's age.
0:20:09 > 0:20:12What we have done is to create a situation
0:20:12 > 0:20:15where houses are available for the older generation
0:20:15 > 0:20:18and jobs are available for the older generation.
0:20:18 > 0:20:21This recession is slightly different to the one in the 1980s.
0:20:21 > 0:20:25That is because we aren't throwing so many people on the rubbish tip
0:20:25 > 0:20:29as we did then, but what we're not doing is recruiting.
0:20:29 > 0:20:32What's really interesting is that when you look around Europe,
0:20:32 > 0:20:37countries have different rates of youth unemployment.
0:20:37 > 0:20:43You have 50% in Spain, 20% in Britain and 10% in Germany.
0:20:43 > 0:20:47How have they reached that figure of 10% in Germany?
0:20:47 > 0:20:48If you agree with Helen,
0:20:48 > 0:20:52then they have done this by concentrating on people
0:20:52 > 0:20:56who aren't going to university by creating apprenticeships
0:20:56 > 0:21:00which lead those people in a structured way towards a job.
0:21:00 > 0:21:03It's interesting to hear a university lecturer saying
0:21:03 > 0:21:06there is too much emphasis on going to university.
0:21:06 > 0:21:08That is often the only aim.
0:21:08 > 0:21:11No, you should go to university if you want to go to university.
0:21:11 > 0:21:14But there are young people who aren't going to university
0:21:14 > 0:21:16and we need to think about them.
0:21:16 > 0:21:20Let's hear from our young people. Is this a worrying time for you?
0:21:20 > 0:21:22I'll start here.
0:21:22 > 0:21:25Yes, Harri made a point there,
0:21:25 > 0:21:33that confidence was coming back into the economy.
0:21:33 > 0:21:37David Cameron and George Osborne have been saying that since 2010.
0:21:37 > 0:21:39We can see that the economy is flatlining.
0:21:39 > 0:21:42The only way that you can move forwards is, as Gareth said,
0:21:42 > 0:21:45by investing money and by investing money in young people.
0:21:45 > 0:21:48Without that, as Helen said, you're going to create
0:21:48 > 0:21:50another generation which is forgotten.
0:21:50 > 0:21:52You'll create a vicious circle.
0:21:52 > 0:21:542010 will be like the 1980s.
0:21:54 > 0:22:00You asked the question, is this a worrying time for you?
0:22:00 > 0:22:03Are you worried? Are you in college or school? Where are you studying?
0:22:03 > 0:22:05- I'm at school. - Which school?- Llanhari.
0:22:05 > 0:22:07We've heard the name, Llanhari.
0:22:07 > 0:22:09I'm sure we'll hear more later on.
0:22:09 > 0:22:11Is it a worrying time for you?
0:22:11 > 0:22:17Yes, the question is, are there enough resources for us
0:22:17 > 0:22:19to find jobs these days?
0:22:19 > 0:22:20Also, if we go to university,
0:22:20 > 0:22:24how can we afford to go without getting a job?
0:22:24 > 0:22:27Yes, we'll return to that. You had your hand up.
0:22:27 > 0:22:31I believe the problem stems from education.
0:22:31 > 0:22:33Whether the economy is growing and improving,
0:22:33 > 0:22:37if there are jobs out there, does the younger generation
0:22:37 > 0:22:40have the necessary skills to get these new jobs?
0:22:40 > 0:22:46Do we have the skills in the developing sciences
0:22:46 > 0:22:48to get those jobs in the long-term?
0:22:48 > 0:22:54Do you get enough advice, in school or at university, concerning careers?
0:22:54 > 0:22:56How much emphasis is on that side of things?
0:22:56 > 0:23:00There is quite a bit of emphasis
0:23:00 > 0:23:03on thinking about what you want to do in future,
0:23:03 > 0:23:06but there isn't much emphasis on what skills you would require
0:23:06 > 0:23:07to get into those jobs.
0:23:07 > 0:23:09They talk about getting grades,
0:23:09 > 0:23:11but not about the extra-curricular things.
0:23:11 > 0:23:12There we are.
0:23:12 > 0:23:16Right at the back, the University of Glamorgan, if I remember correctly.
0:23:16 > 0:23:20Yes, I believe there is a lot of emphasis on subjects
0:23:20 > 0:23:24such as medicine and going to study medicine and mathematics.
0:23:24 > 0:23:27I don't believe there is enough emphasis on people
0:23:27 > 0:23:32who want to go into the arts or education, who would like to teach.
0:23:32 > 0:23:35I believe we need to look back at secondary schools
0:23:35 > 0:23:37and help at that stage.
0:23:37 > 0:23:42If I can cut across you, shouldn't we be putting more emphasis
0:23:42 > 0:23:47on those subjects where jobs are available at the end?
0:23:47 > 0:23:50Yes, but help also needs to be given to those people
0:23:50 > 0:23:55who want to go into areas where there aren't as many jobs.
0:23:55 > 0:23:57They also need more attention.
0:23:57 > 0:23:59OK. Anyone else?
0:23:59 > 0:24:02What about Simon's point that not enough attention is being given
0:24:02 > 0:24:07to apprenticeships as there would have been at your time, Gareth?
0:24:07 > 0:24:10That is true, but in order to have apprenticeships,
0:24:10 > 0:24:13you need to have companies to run them.
0:24:13 > 0:24:18If the economy is flatlining, and it isn't growing at all,
0:24:18 > 0:24:21there's no point having that education
0:24:21 > 0:24:25because we have seen a decline in the economy overall.
0:24:25 > 0:24:28This happened especially under Mrs Thatcher.
0:24:28 > 0:24:33Everybody thought London was where all the growth would take place
0:24:33 > 0:24:38and that what we manufactured in factories across Wales and England
0:24:38 > 0:24:41wasn't important. Apprenticeships weren't important.
0:24:41 > 0:24:45- How can we change that emphasis? - We must change the economy.
0:24:45 > 0:24:49But first, you have to inflate that economy.
0:24:49 > 0:24:51There's no point to any of these measures.
0:24:51 > 0:24:55You keep returning to that point. It's like a reel.
0:24:55 > 0:24:58We have seen this before.
0:24:58 > 0:25:04Japan did the same thing over the years and there was no growth there.
0:25:04 > 0:25:06Now, they are reconsidering the situation.
0:25:06 > 0:25:08Governance doesn't grow economies.
0:25:08 > 0:25:12Small companies grow economies at the end of the day.
0:25:12 > 0:25:14But they must have the confidence to do that.
0:25:14 > 0:25:18- They must have the confidence. - The confidence is returning.
0:25:18 > 0:25:19Mervyn King has said.
0:25:19 > 0:25:21What is important, what we should be doing
0:25:21 > 0:25:24is to inspire young people to start small businesses.
0:25:24 > 0:25:27That is the way we will get the economy to grow.
0:25:27 > 0:25:30These people will then begin to employ other young people.
0:25:30 > 0:25:33What your Government hasn't done is force banks to lend money
0:25:33 > 0:25:36to young people who want to start businesses.
0:25:36 > 0:25:39You are right to say that the Government doesn't grow the economy.
0:25:39 > 0:25:42But the Government creates the conditions in which
0:25:42 > 0:25:46the economy can grow or vice versa.
0:25:46 > 0:25:49But interest rates are as low as they have ever been
0:25:49 > 0:25:53and they are much lower in Britain than almost everywhere else.
0:25:53 > 0:25:55But you need the banks to lend money.
0:25:55 > 0:25:59The truth is, unemployment among young people has been higher
0:25:59 > 0:26:03than the norm in other parts of Europe in Britain for decades.
0:26:03 > 0:26:06- You said this before, but you didn't explain why?- Why?
0:26:06 > 0:26:10It's because in other countries they have a clear pathway
0:26:10 > 0:26:12which takes people from school to work.
0:26:12 > 0:26:17If you don't go to university in Britain, that pathway isn't clear.
0:26:17 > 0:26:20Let's hear from a few more people in our audience.
0:26:20 > 0:26:25I would like to come back to what Gareth said about apprenticeships.
0:26:25 > 0:26:29I have friends who left school at 16
0:26:29 > 0:26:33and they got apprenticeships at places like Wylfa.
0:26:33 > 0:26:37Some of my friends now earn around £40,000
0:26:37 > 0:26:40after working for about five years.
0:26:40 > 0:26:42I have a law degree.
0:26:42 > 0:26:48I don't know how long it will take for me to earn that amount of money.
0:26:48 > 0:26:52That's very interesting. Where did I see another hand up. Here we are.
0:26:52 > 0:26:56I believe the unemployment problem comes from the fact that
0:26:56 > 0:26:59too many employers ask for experience.
0:26:59 > 0:27:02But where are we expected to get that experience
0:27:02 > 0:27:06if it is our first job? It's a vicious circle.
0:27:06 > 0:27:07Yes, and in the back row!
0:27:07 > 0:27:11Going back to the economic point.
0:27:11 > 0:27:13When a recession takes place,
0:27:13 > 0:27:16doesn't the panel believe
0:27:16 > 0:27:20that it is the Government's responsibility
0:27:20 > 0:27:24to restore confidence by investing in things.
0:27:24 > 0:27:27When the private sector loses confidence,
0:27:27 > 0:27:35shouldn't the Government increase spending and funds?
0:27:35 > 0:27:37We had another hand up. We'll come back to you.
0:27:37 > 0:27:39Going back to the point about experience.
0:27:39 > 0:27:42The education system in Germany
0:27:42 > 0:27:46has a 60-day work experience period every year.
0:27:46 > 0:27:48We only have a week.
0:27:48 > 0:27:56That is why the rate of unemployment among young people is much lower.
0:27:56 > 0:27:58Harri Lloyd Davies, you can end this topic of discussion.
0:27:58 > 0:28:01Where do you find the confidence for young people
0:28:01 > 0:28:04to establish small businesses as you've suggested they should do?
0:28:04 > 0:28:09How do we give back confidence to them? I believe it's growing.
0:28:09 > 0:28:11You can see it happening all the time.
0:28:11 > 0:28:14You can see it in the CBI and the South Wales Chamber of Commerce.
0:28:14 > 0:28:16They all show small businesses
0:28:16 > 0:28:19are starting to have more confidence in the future.
0:28:19 > 0:28:22I believe that will improve over the next year or two.
0:28:22 > 0:28:25With those words, and the noise we heard from the corner,
0:28:25 > 0:28:27it's time for us to have a break.
0:28:27 > 0:28:30Join us again in Cardiff Bay in a couple of minutes.
0:28:44 > 0:28:48Welcome back. You're watching Pawb a'i Farn from Cardiff Bay.
0:28:48 > 0:28:51We have an audience made up of young people from the area.
0:28:51 > 0:28:53Let's go to our third question.
0:28:53 > 0:28:56It comes from Iwan Hughes. What is your question?
0:28:56 > 0:28:58The number of applications from Wales
0:28:58 > 0:29:00for university places has fallen.
0:29:00 > 0:29:04Is this a sign that the Government's tuition fee policy has failed?
0:29:04 > 0:29:06Iwan has asked,
0:29:06 > 0:29:10the number of applications from Wales for university places has fallen.
0:29:10 > 0:29:14Is this a sign that the Government's tuition fee policy has failed?
0:29:14 > 0:29:16Iwan, what do you believe?
0:29:16 > 0:29:20I believe that with the country in its current economic state,
0:29:20 > 0:29:24fewer people are going to go to university.
0:29:24 > 0:29:27- What about you personally? - I intend to go to university, yes.
0:29:27 > 0:29:32- So you are in the sixth form?- Yes. - Which school?- Plasmawr.- There we are.
0:29:32 > 0:29:34Simon Brooks, as someone from the academic world,
0:29:34 > 0:29:37what do you make of this question?
0:29:37 > 0:29:38I don't think it's failed.
0:29:38 > 0:29:41Where would we be without this policy from the viewpoint
0:29:41 > 0:29:43of young Welsh people?
0:29:43 > 0:29:48We'd have people from wealthier backgrounds that currently
0:29:48 > 0:29:53attend universities, going on to establishments in Wales.
0:29:53 > 0:29:55It hasn't failed.
0:29:55 > 0:29:57But it hasn't attracted as much as someone might hope.
0:29:57 > 0:30:05From my understanding, this year a percentage in Wales had dropped.
0:30:05 > 0:30:08But saying that it didn't drop that much last year
0:30:09 > 0:30:12and it's possible what we've seen following the Government's policy
0:30:12 > 0:30:16is that drop had been held back for 12 months in terms of...
0:30:16 > 0:30:21- You think there's no need to worry? - I'm saying this.
0:30:21 > 0:30:26The situation would be much, much worse without this policy.
0:30:26 > 0:30:30But I think the policy needs to be changed.
0:30:30 > 0:30:34I don't think we can support it in the long-term in Wales.
0:30:34 > 0:30:36I think it's too expensive.
0:30:36 > 0:30:41I also think Welsh universities are under pressure especially
0:30:41 > 0:30:44with the number of young people studying in England.
0:30:44 > 0:30:48I think this policy should be restricted to young people
0:30:48 > 0:30:52who attend universities in Wales.
0:30:53 > 0:30:56To return to how it was for a time. That's how it worked.
0:30:56 > 0:31:00I don't think Wales should be like East Germany,
0:31:00 > 0:31:03if you want to leave Wales, great, you can do that.
0:31:03 > 0:31:06But I don't think it's up to the Welsh tax payer
0:31:06 > 0:31:08to pay you to do that.
0:31:09 > 0:31:14For those youngsters who want to study a subject that's not available
0:31:14 > 0:31:16in Welsh universities you wouldn't sponsor them
0:31:16 > 0:31:18unless they stay in Wales.
0:31:18 > 0:31:21We should be developing those courses in Wales.
0:31:21 > 0:31:25That's part of developing a sensible higher education system
0:31:25 > 0:31:28in our country. I don't think there is an argument
0:31:28 > 0:31:32for paying young people from Wales to study in Nottingham
0:31:32 > 0:31:35or places like that and for them to then live there
0:31:35 > 0:31:36for the rest of their lives.
0:31:36 > 0:31:39They receive £27,000 and then won't contribute to our economy.
0:31:39 > 0:31:44I think it's too early to tell if the policy has failed.
0:31:45 > 0:31:48I think it was a poor policy in the first place.
0:31:48 > 0:31:51If the course isn't worth £9,000 a year, why study it?
0:31:51 > 0:31:55If you want a job at the end of it the job should be good enough
0:31:55 > 0:31:57to pay for the course you attended.
0:31:57 > 0:31:59So you're saying no financial support at all?
0:31:59 > 0:32:03We're looking at maybe this policy costing £1.5 billion.
0:32:03 > 0:32:08- We've talked about this. - What do you suggest instead?
0:32:08 > 0:32:13People should pay the same as it is in England and Scotland
0:32:13 > 0:32:17- and everywhere else. - It isn't the same in Scotland.
0:32:17 > 0:32:20Sorry, not Scotland. Exactly the same as in England.
0:32:20 > 0:32:23I'd like to see that money being put into people
0:32:23 > 0:32:26starting up their own businesses or into apprenticeships.
0:32:26 > 0:32:28That would be better.
0:32:28 > 0:32:32Right, hands are going up like a forest in the back row.
0:32:32 > 0:32:34What do you think?
0:32:35 > 0:32:37Harri says you expect to get...
0:32:39 > 0:32:42..job at the end of your course or whatever.
0:32:42 > 0:32:45That's not the purpose of education to me.
0:32:45 > 0:32:49I see education as a way of expanding my horizons
0:32:49 > 0:32:54and to see more of the world and to understand about it.
0:32:54 > 0:32:56But don't you want a job at the end?
0:32:56 > 0:33:03As the gentleman said earlier about a degree in law, there's no sense
0:33:04 > 0:33:08doing a degree economically these days because everyone has a degree.
0:33:09 > 0:33:12Everyone who's in the middle classes
0:33:12 > 0:33:15wants to be part of the that world.
0:33:15 > 0:33:18They're going to get a degree.
0:33:18 > 0:33:20Everyone's following the same path.
0:33:21 > 0:33:23- So there's no point gaining a degree?- Well, no.
0:33:23 > 0:33:27- Economically there's no point at the moment.- Back to the back row.
0:33:27 > 0:33:30There should be more emphasis on learning more.
0:33:32 > 0:33:36Yes, right, thank you. You in the back.
0:33:36 > 0:33:39What Harri said about investing in businesses,
0:33:39 > 0:33:43if you don't invest in the education of these young people,
0:33:43 > 0:33:46they establish businesses here
0:33:46 > 0:33:50and they need the training from the universities.
0:33:50 > 0:33:54The only way many of them from poorer backgrounds can gain
0:33:54 > 0:33:59this education is through the Government policy.
0:33:59 > 0:34:03You can't invest in businesses that haven't been set up by those
0:34:03 > 0:34:04going to university.
0:34:04 > 0:34:08What about those who are hoping to attend universities in Scotland
0:34:08 > 0:34:11or England? Simon suggests you shouldn't be getting that grant.
0:34:12 > 0:34:18I agree with the idea that Welsh people shouldn't pay for those
0:34:18 > 0:34:22- who won't even contribute to our economy.- Maybe they'll return.
0:34:22 > 0:34:25Exactly, but it comes back to the point,
0:34:25 > 0:34:28are we part of the UK or are we a stand-alone country?
0:34:28 > 0:34:30At the moment we're part of the UK
0:34:30 > 0:34:35- so I think it's part of the wider economy.- Thank you. Which school?
0:34:35 > 0:34:41- Llangynidr.- I have to be fair, we haven't had that name here before.
0:34:41 > 0:34:42Back to Cerith.
0:34:42 > 0:34:47What I find extremely sad is that Harri
0:34:47 > 0:34:53and his ilk still have the same opinion where if they had their way
0:34:53 > 0:34:57only the privileged would have access to high education.
0:34:57 > 0:35:01But I also agree with Simon, if we are going to finance people
0:35:01 > 0:35:05from Wales to go to university they should remain in Wales.
0:35:05 > 0:35:08But when it comes to veterinary sciences...
0:35:08 > 0:35:10But what if you want to be a vet?
0:35:10 > 0:35:13I have a friend who's studying in Liverpool
0:35:13 > 0:35:17and she couldn't study to become a vet in Wales.
0:35:17 > 0:35:19She had to move to Liverpool.
0:35:19 > 0:35:22- But I do think those courses have to developed in Wales.- We could...
0:35:22 > 0:35:26Hang on Simon. Let's have a voice from here. I take it you disagree?
0:35:26 > 0:35:30Yes. Some English universities are of a higher standard
0:35:30 > 0:35:32than some universities in Wales.
0:35:32 > 0:35:36You expect those pupils who have the opportunity
0:35:36 > 0:35:39to go to high standard universities to stay in Wales
0:35:39 > 0:35:42just so they can benefit financially.
0:35:42 > 0:35:45That's not fair on individuals.
0:35:45 > 0:35:48- Simon Brooks. - I'll answer both points.
0:35:48 > 0:35:51First about the subjects like veterinary sciences.
0:35:51 > 0:35:54We could create a temporary list of subjects that aren't
0:35:54 > 0:35:57taught in Wales and they can be separated.
0:35:57 > 0:36:01But what about the point, there are better universities available
0:36:01 > 0:36:04in England and you're preventing Welsh students from going there?
0:36:04 > 0:36:08Welsh students have every right to attend any university in the world.
0:36:08 > 0:36:11From Harvard to Cardiff or wherever.
0:36:11 > 0:36:16But should the taxpayer from Wales, which is one of the poorest
0:36:16 > 0:36:20countries in Western Europe, be paying for that?
0:36:20 > 0:36:22I think that's appropriate in Wales
0:36:22 > 0:36:26because the young people then re-invest in the economy.
0:36:26 > 0:36:31But people who go to Harvard could be coming back top Wales.
0:36:31 > 0:36:35It's not our place as Welsh tax payers to pay people
0:36:36 > 0:36:39to leave our country and take the skills elsewhere.
0:36:40 > 0:36:44- But they can come back. - Hang on, Gareth Hughes.
0:36:44 > 0:36:47Things have changed since your day.
0:36:47 > 0:36:51I went out of the country, I went to LSE.
0:36:51 > 0:36:55Caernarfon County Council, as it was, paid for me to go there.
0:36:55 > 0:37:00I think there is a lack of confidence in Wales.
0:37:00 > 0:37:04We can't be narrow-minded and staying in a our own Square Mile.
0:37:04 > 0:37:09That is not something young people want.
0:37:09 > 0:37:13I was interviewed by young people in my local college,
0:37:13 > 0:37:15Dwyfor Meirionnydd College.
0:37:15 > 0:37:17I asked them if they wanted to stay in that area?
0:37:17 > 0:37:21It's important to keep the Welsh language alive.
0:37:21 > 0:37:24The majority of young people at Ygol Dwyfor Meirionnydd...
0:37:24 > 0:37:28sorry, Dwyfor Meirionnydd College said they wanted to go
0:37:28 > 0:37:31to the big cities. I don't blame them.
0:37:31 > 0:37:34I don't blame the people of Wales going out of Wales
0:37:34 > 0:37:36to wherever they want.
0:37:36 > 0:37:39We want a wide community, that is not narrow.
0:37:39 > 0:37:43That's what's going to happen if we restrict ourselves to Wales.
0:37:43 > 0:37:47The debate we have had tonight proves
0:37:47 > 0:37:49how difficult the situation is.
0:37:49 > 0:37:52The point that you make that maybe their courses in Wales
0:37:52 > 0:37:56aren't of a high enough standard, we have to ask the question why?
0:37:56 > 0:37:59Do our universities respond to our students' needs?
0:37:59 > 0:38:04I understands Simon's situation, is it fair,
0:38:04 > 0:38:07we are going to seek people going out to study everywhere,
0:38:07 > 0:38:13but if I run a hair dresser's in Llanelli, is it fair for me
0:38:13 > 0:38:15to pay for you to go wherever you want?
0:38:15 > 0:38:19I am very wary that if we go back to the situation
0:38:19 > 0:38:22where only those from privileged backgrounds
0:38:22 > 0:38:25are the only ones going to university.
0:38:25 > 0:38:27We were the first country back in 1928,
0:38:27 > 0:38:31Glamorgan Council gave the opportunity for young people
0:38:31 > 0:38:35from working-class backgrounds to get a loan, it was not a grant,
0:38:35 > 0:38:38I know it because my father was one of them.
0:38:38 > 0:38:40But has this policy failed?
0:38:40 > 0:38:42The policy has not failed.
0:38:42 > 0:38:47If we look at the drop, it isn't as much in Wales as it was in England.
0:38:47 > 0:38:51But there is a question about how sustainable it is.
0:38:51 > 0:38:55That is why we in Plaid Cymru in are holding national discussions
0:38:55 > 0:38:59about what we can have as a sustainable way forward.
0:38:59 > 0:39:01I want to go to the audience. Let's go to the back row.
0:39:01 > 0:39:05About Simon's point, I don't understand,
0:39:05 > 0:39:10that would not work if you stayed in a university in Wales.
0:39:10 > 0:39:14Who is to say when you're 18 and going to university,
0:39:14 > 0:39:17you don't know what you're going to do at the end of your degree.
0:39:17 > 0:39:20As it happens I went to a Welsh university, I graduated
0:39:20 > 0:39:24and I moved to England to work.
0:39:24 > 0:39:26I had no intention of doing that when I was 18,
0:39:26 > 0:39:30I had no idea was going to move to England to work when I was 21.
0:39:30 > 0:39:32That is where the jobs were.
0:39:32 > 0:39:35So everyone should have this financial support?
0:39:35 > 0:39:37With the financial support,
0:39:37 > 0:39:40I don't know how you can say by investing in those
0:39:40 > 0:39:45who are only going to remain in Welsh universities
0:39:45 > 0:39:48that they will reinvest in Wales.
0:39:48 > 0:39:51When you're 18 you have no idea where you will end up.
0:39:51 > 0:39:57- In front of you.- It is just as important to raise Wales's profile.
0:39:57 > 0:40:01If somebody feels that they can make a name for themselves
0:40:01 > 0:40:04in London, one to they then be raising Wales's profile
0:40:04 > 0:40:08to say they are proud to come from Wales?
0:40:08 > 0:40:12- So it is a good thing we go to other universities?- Yes.
0:40:12 > 0:40:15- How about you in the back row? - I agree with you both.
0:40:15 > 0:40:19Rather than investing in Welsh universities
0:40:19 > 0:40:22it would be better to invest in jobs so people can go abroad,
0:40:22 > 0:40:26maybe to England and then return to jobs in Wales.
0:40:26 > 0:40:28But there is no certainty that they will come back.
0:40:28 > 0:40:31- If the jobs are here.- How about you?
0:40:31 > 0:40:33I think everyone should have the right to attend
0:40:33 > 0:40:35university in England.
0:40:35 > 0:40:40Nobody is preventing you, but you won't have the same financial gain.
0:40:40 > 0:40:44Wales depends on a lot of its money coming from England,
0:40:44 > 0:40:49there isn't much prospects getting good jobs in Wales.
0:40:49 > 0:40:51A lot of people are unemployed.
0:40:51 > 0:40:56There are more jobs in England and you get better education there.
0:40:57 > 0:41:02Harri Lloyd Davies suggests we should get rid of the policy altogether.
0:41:02 > 0:41:06Everyone should pay for themselves. There was someone else here.
0:41:06 > 0:41:12One thing that hasn't been touched upon is that the £9,000 per annum
0:41:12 > 0:41:16price tag has been set by the Westminster Government.
0:41:16 > 0:41:23It means students in England who are responsible for the cuts
0:41:23 > 0:41:27in the number of students recruited by Welsh universities.
0:41:27 > 0:41:30English universities don't have a cap on recruitment on those
0:41:30 > 0:41:33students that get the higher grades.
0:41:33 > 0:41:37English universities have more freedom to recruit as they wish.
0:41:37 > 0:41:39That creates a more difficult market
0:41:39 > 0:41:42for Welsh universities to compete against.
0:41:42 > 0:41:44What you make of that, Simon Brooks?
0:41:45 > 0:41:50Not many people agree with you. Does anyone agree with you?
0:41:50 > 0:41:53I think that we have to have confidence
0:41:53 > 0:41:54in our own establishments.
0:41:54 > 0:41:58People have the right to do what they wish with their lives.
0:41:58 > 0:42:01I don't think there is an argument for us
0:42:01 > 0:42:04to finance young people to leave the country
0:42:04 > 0:42:09when we know what we need is young people to stay here.
0:42:09 > 0:42:11You have a sentence.
0:42:11 > 0:42:16I think it is important that we make sure that Welsh universities
0:42:16 > 0:42:18get enough money.
0:42:18 > 0:42:22If we send too many people out of Wales,
0:42:22 > 0:42:25it is important that the universities are good enough
0:42:25 > 0:42:28and people want to stay in Wales to study.
0:42:28 > 0:42:34We have one more subject to discuss but first let's have a short break.
0:42:47 > 0:42:51Welcome back to the Assembly building here in Cardiff Bay.
0:42:51 > 0:42:54We have one more question to go in the programme.
0:42:54 > 0:42:57It is asked by Megan Jones.
0:42:57 > 0:43:00How do you make sure the Welsh language is heard and used
0:43:00 > 0:43:02outside of the classroom and in our communities?
0:43:02 > 0:43:05A question that we discuss often on this programme.
0:43:05 > 0:43:07How do make sure the Welsh language is heard
0:43:07 > 0:43:11and used outside the classroom and in our communities?
0:43:11 > 0:43:14Let's start with Gareth Hughes.
0:43:14 > 0:43:18It is true that it is difficult to get people who attend Welsh schools
0:43:18 > 0:43:25to use the Welsh language outside the classroom.
0:43:25 > 0:43:29I have two daughters who went to a Welsh school, Cwm Rhymni,
0:43:29 > 0:43:33and even with their friends who went to the same school,
0:43:33 > 0:43:37after leaving school, they would speak English.
0:43:37 > 0:43:41I think there's something wrong there. I am not sure what it is.
0:43:41 > 0:43:45Speaking Welsh wasn't seen as cool.
0:43:45 > 0:43:48If we want to discuss the Welsh language,
0:43:49 > 0:43:53we don't want to discuss the language itself,
0:43:53 > 0:43:57but what about concentrating on talking about things in Welsh.
0:43:57 > 0:44:01Often enough, we have a debate about the future of the language.
0:44:01 > 0:44:05In the magazines, there are articles and articles
0:44:05 > 0:44:07about the Welsh language.
0:44:07 > 0:44:11But what I want to know is, we should be discussing
0:44:11 > 0:44:15a wide range of topics, perhaps more popular topics.
0:44:15 > 0:44:20We are concentrating too much on the language
0:44:20 > 0:44:24and not concentrating enough on using the language.
0:44:24 > 0:44:28That is our failing as a nation.
0:44:28 > 0:44:33We worry too much about the languages instead of using it.
0:44:33 > 0:44:36Megan.
0:44:36 > 0:44:39I hear people in school talking in English.
0:44:39 > 0:44:42I think something needs to be done.
0:44:42 > 0:44:47I don't agree with people speaking English after their parents chose
0:44:47 > 0:44:49- for them to attend a Welsh school. - How can you change that?
0:44:49 > 0:44:54You can't force people.
0:44:54 > 0:44:58I think schools should give out stricter punishments.
0:44:58 > 0:45:00- Which school do you attend? - Plasmawr.
0:45:00 > 0:45:04Let's move to the back.
0:45:04 > 0:45:08Shouldn't we look at the classroom before looking outside?
0:45:09 > 0:45:13- There is a problem in the classroom? - Yes.- Expand on that.
0:45:13 > 0:45:17Sometimes, if you walk into the schoolyard
0:45:17 > 0:45:22you would be confused whether it is a Welsh school or an English school.
0:45:23 > 0:45:25The front row.
0:45:25 > 0:45:29I have been raised speaking Welsh and I have taken Welsh at A-level.
0:45:29 > 0:45:33There are some people who I turn to English inside the school
0:45:33 > 0:45:35and outside.
0:45:35 > 0:45:37I think it is the habit and I think that is a mistake
0:45:37 > 0:45:40in the way people are taught Welsh.
0:45:40 > 0:45:42There are pupils who are in the sixth form who can't speak
0:45:42 > 0:45:46Welsh fluently and have difficulties.
0:45:46 > 0:45:50Unlike Megan, and we attend the same school,
0:45:50 > 0:45:55I think that the Welsh is being used as too much of a punishment.
0:45:55 > 0:45:59People will see it as something awful.
0:45:59 > 0:46:02We only have a few minutes left.
0:46:02 > 0:46:07- How about you? - I totally disagree with this.
0:46:07 > 0:46:10I think it is cool to speak Welsh.
0:46:10 > 0:46:14It is unique to us and we should respect language and think,
0:46:14 > 0:46:16it is cool, that person over there
0:46:16 > 0:46:18can't understand what we are saying.
0:46:18 > 0:46:21Many thanks. How about you?
0:46:23 > 0:46:27In my opinion the true problem is people come home
0:46:27 > 0:46:30and watched English programmes on television,
0:46:30 > 0:46:33and listen to English radio stations.
0:46:33 > 0:46:37- The media...- Radio Cymru, Post Prynhawn, five o'clock every day.
0:46:38 > 0:46:43Especially the problems that Radio Cymru have been having recently.
0:46:43 > 0:46:45The media is quite weak.
0:46:45 > 0:46:50Many thanks. How about you.
0:46:50 > 0:46:53I agree. I think it is cool to speak Welsh
0:46:53 > 0:46:57but a lot of children have been forced to speak Welsh in school.
0:46:57 > 0:46:59If you are forced to do something,
0:46:59 > 0:47:02the natural thing is to fight against it.
0:47:02 > 0:47:08That goes against making Welsh cool in schools.
0:47:08 > 0:47:10How about you?
0:47:10 > 0:47:14There is the danger that Welsh is turning into a formal language.
0:47:14 > 0:47:17We are being forced to speak it in schools
0:47:17 > 0:47:21and there isn't enough emphasis on using it every day
0:47:21 > 0:47:23especially in a big city.
0:47:23 > 0:47:27People spoke formal Latin for generations
0:47:27 > 0:47:30and yet it still died out because people don't use it.
0:47:30 > 0:47:33I have to say if I had power I would ask S4C
0:47:33 > 0:47:36for another 15 minutes to discuss the topic.
0:47:36 > 0:47:38There are so many of you wanting to contribute.
0:47:38 > 0:47:41Panel, you have to be short.
0:47:41 > 0:47:44Maybe we need to more television programmes.
0:47:44 > 0:47:48So people all over the world can become familiar with Welsh.
0:47:48 > 0:47:50Very quickly.
0:47:50 > 0:47:53More opportunities to use Welsh outside schools.
0:47:53 > 0:47:57More opportunities to use it in the community.
0:47:57 > 0:48:01Little things like badges that told you who could speak Welsh.
0:48:01 > 0:48:03I think the audience is wrong.
0:48:03 > 0:48:07Welsh is losing ground where Welsh education is not available.
0:48:07 > 0:48:10Places like Pembrokeshire and Ceredigion.
0:48:10 > 0:48:14Cardiff, Gwynedd, the South East Wales is very strong.
0:48:14 > 0:48:17There we go. That is a subject for a whole programme.
0:48:17 > 0:48:19Look at those hands up. I am sorry.
0:48:19 > 0:48:22Thank you very much and the panel for your contributions.
0:48:22 > 0:48:26That is all for tonight.
0:48:26 > 0:48:28We will be back next week in Ystrad Rhondda. Goodbye.