0:00:24 > 0:00:26On our panel tonight,
0:00:26 > 0:00:29a foursome that proves that Wales is full of Davises.
0:00:29 > 0:00:33Iestyn Davies from the Federation of Small Businesses.
0:00:33 > 0:00:37Suzy Davies, the Conservative Assembly Member.
0:00:37 > 0:00:40Keith Davies, the Assembly Member for Llanelli.
0:00:40 > 0:00:45And completing the panel tonight, the columnist and language tutor, Cris Dafis.
0:00:45 > 0:00:47Please welcome them all.
0:00:47 > 0:00:49APPLAUSE
0:00:58 > 0:01:02Good evening and welcome to another edition of Pawb a'i Farn.
0:01:02 > 0:01:04For tonight's programme,
0:01:04 > 0:01:09we have travelled to the most famous valley in South Wales, the Rhondda Valley.
0:01:09 > 0:01:13There are two valleys and we are in the larger of the two tonight
0:01:13 > 0:01:16and specifically in Ystrad Rhondda Sports Centre.
0:01:16 > 0:01:18Our audience come from villages
0:01:18 > 0:01:23like Treorchy, Tonpentre, Tonypandy, Tonyrefail and Treherbert
0:01:23 > 0:01:27and the odd one or two have ventured up from Pontypridd's as well.
0:01:27 > 0:01:30It is a very cold night so it's very nice to have your company.
0:01:30 > 0:01:33Thank you very much for offering so many questions tonight.
0:01:33 > 0:01:36We have selected a handful, as usual.
0:01:36 > 0:01:41let's go to our first question which comes from Elise Jones. What is your question?
0:01:41 > 0:01:45Were the results of the Census a surprise considering the fact
0:01:45 > 0:01:49that Welsh medium schools in this area are full?
0:01:49 > 0:01:53Thank you very much for tonight's first question.
0:01:53 > 0:01:57Were the results of the Census a surprise considering the fact
0:01:57 > 0:02:02that Welsh medium schools in this area are full?
0:02:02 > 0:02:09Someone Tweeted earlier today that it is 'Every Davies and His Opinion' tonight!
0:02:09 > 0:02:11Let's start with Cris Dafis.
0:02:12 > 0:02:17I think everybody in Wales were surprised to see the Census results.
0:02:17 > 0:02:22But I think in this area we are a little too pessimistic.
0:02:22 > 0:02:27This area has done better, if you can put it in those terms,
0:02:27 > 0:02:29than many other areas of Wales.
0:02:29 > 0:02:32There has been a small increase in this area
0:02:32 > 0:02:36but it is a small increase compared to Ceredigion and places like that.
0:02:36 > 0:02:42People forget, 28,000 people speak Welsh in Rhondda Cynon Taff,
0:02:42 > 0:02:46which is not many fewer than Ceredigion and Anglesey.
0:02:46 > 0:02:48People tend to think about the South Wales Valleys,
0:02:48 > 0:02:52nobody speaks Welsh down there. But they do.
0:02:52 > 0:02:54A lot of people speak Welsh here.
0:02:54 > 0:02:57There are very strong Welsh medium schools which contribute
0:02:57 > 0:03:02- a lot to Welsh culture.- Do they? This is the question we have to ask.
0:03:02 > 0:03:04The schools are full
0:03:04 > 0:03:08but what influence do these full schools have on the community,
0:03:08 > 0:03:11if the Welsh language is not spoken outside of school?
0:03:11 > 0:03:17There is a drop after people leave school at the age of 15 and over.
0:03:17 > 0:03:23But people rediscover their Welsh years later very often.
0:03:23 > 0:03:26I remember when I was in school in Llanelli, there were children
0:03:26 > 0:03:30that I never spoke Welsh with although they could speak Welsh.
0:03:30 > 0:03:35I went back 10 years later and spoke English to them and the would say, why are you speaking English?
0:03:35 > 0:03:37They had turned back to the Welsh language.
0:03:37 > 0:03:42In all honesty, education is not the only answer.
0:03:42 > 0:03:47A lot of people say we need more education through the medium of Welsh
0:03:47 > 0:03:48but we need a lot more.
0:03:48 > 0:03:55You can't force children and young people to speak Welsh.
0:03:55 > 0:04:00No matter how much good work schools do, they can't force anybody.
0:04:00 > 0:04:04At the end of the day, what Welsh schools do is produce a bilingual Wales.
0:04:04 > 0:04:09This slogan, "I want to live through the medium of Welsh",
0:04:09 > 0:04:12which the Welsh language Society has adopted at the moment,
0:04:12 > 0:04:16in my opinion it is a lot of harm because most people live bilingually.
0:04:16 > 0:04:19But we present this idea that you either live through
0:04:19 > 0:04:22the medium of English or through the medium of Welsh.
0:04:22 > 0:04:28I think in this area and other areas in Wales people don't live through the medium of Welsh.
0:04:28 > 0:04:30They lived bilingually.
0:04:30 > 0:04:34Let me turn to somebody who was brought up in these valleys, Iestyn Davies.
0:04:34 > 0:04:36What do you make of this question?
0:04:36 > 0:04:39I was not surprised with the figures.
0:04:39 > 0:04:41I was disappointed, of course.
0:04:41 > 0:04:45We have to accept that the traditional Welsh areas
0:04:45 > 0:04:50are very important and they have a definite role within Welsh culture.
0:04:50 > 0:04:54But that is another culture and identity
0:04:54 > 0:04:58growing in the South Wales Valleys and that is a bilingual identity.
0:04:58 > 0:05:04I agree. I don't live my life through the medium of Welsh.
0:05:04 > 0:05:05I live bilingually.
0:05:05 > 0:05:09I speaking English at home, which is odd to some people,
0:05:09 > 0:05:11and Welsh at work.
0:05:11 > 0:05:15That's the nature of Welsh speakers in the south-east and the valleys.
0:05:15 > 0:05:19We have to embrace that and accept that and celebrate the fact that
0:05:19 > 0:05:23that is the nature of being a Welsh person, especially if you are young.
0:05:23 > 0:05:28So you are seeing it is hopeful with regard to the Welsh language in this part of Wales?
0:05:28 > 0:05:32- Definitely.- Although the figures didn't prove that?
0:05:32 > 0:05:37No, but from our perspective as people who live in the South Wales Valleys,
0:05:37 > 0:05:40we embrace the fact that there has been an increase.
0:05:40 > 0:05:42We accept that the profile
0:05:42 > 0:05:46and usage of the language is different to other areas.
0:05:46 > 0:05:50We accept that and we take that forward.
0:05:50 > 0:05:55We also have to remember, compared to 1991, the percentage has gone up.
0:05:55 > 0:06:01It went up in 2001 and it went down a little in 2011.
0:06:01 > 0:06:05But 9% of the population spoke Welsh in 1991.
0:06:05 > 0:06:09Now it is over 12%. So there has been an increase
0:06:09 > 0:06:12in the long-term although there has been a blip in 2001.
0:06:12 > 0:06:15Elise, give us a picture of the area you work and live in.
0:06:15 > 0:06:20I would say it is very similar to the area that Cris described.
0:06:20 > 0:06:24We bring up our children bilingually in our school.
0:06:24 > 0:06:29We are a Welsh medium school but we put an emphasis on bringing up children bilingually.
0:06:29 > 0:06:34We respect the fact that most of them come from non-Welsh speaking homes
0:06:34 > 0:06:40but the contribution and the vision of the parents in those homes ensure...
0:06:40 > 0:06:42But what happens outside of school?
0:06:42 > 0:06:46How much does the school influence Welsh and the community it is in?
0:06:46 > 0:06:50I would say it is quite a big influence
0:06:50 > 0:06:53but you would have to ask the children.
0:06:53 > 0:06:56We will do that. Put your hands up if you want to contribute.
0:06:56 > 0:07:00Geraint Hopkins, I will come to you now.
0:07:00 > 0:07:02You are a Rhondda Cynon Taff councillor.
0:07:02 > 0:07:05Education is one of the answers, of course.
0:07:05 > 0:07:12But outside of school, it is a problem in our communities
0:07:12 > 0:07:16to find opportunities to speak Welsh from day-to-day.
0:07:16 > 0:07:19I am a learner and I find it difficult to find somebody
0:07:19 > 0:07:23who can speak Welsh so that I can practice the language.
0:07:23 > 0:07:27Of course, a programme like this helps a lot.
0:07:27 > 0:07:32We are pleased to be here. Let's go to a pupil from Ysgol y Cymer.
0:07:32 > 0:07:37- Your hand was up.- I agree with everything that's been said.
0:07:37 > 0:07:42But I think there are opportunities outside of school
0:07:42 > 0:07:45and outside of the classroom like Cor y Cwm.
0:07:45 > 0:07:49I am a member of that choir.
0:07:49 > 0:07:55That is through the medium of Welsh and everybody speaks Welsh.
0:07:55 > 0:07:58We take part in competitions like Cor Cymru
0:07:58 > 0:08:02and I think we do have opportunities and everybody can take part.
0:08:02 > 0:08:05Tom Jones, you have been through the education system
0:08:05 > 0:08:07- and are now back working here.- Yes.
0:08:07 > 0:08:10We have to remember that we have to create an industry
0:08:10 > 0:08:13away from the school.
0:08:13 > 0:08:19In the Rhondda Valley, that is what we are doing at the moment.
0:08:19 > 0:08:23I went away to study in Aberystwyth and there was a Welsh community
0:08:23 > 0:08:27outside of the university and outside of the home.
0:08:27 > 0:08:29That is the practice in Aberystwyth.
0:08:29 > 0:08:33We have to create that in the Rhondda Valley now outside of the school.
0:08:33 > 0:08:37A community where all of us are willing to take part.
0:08:37 > 0:08:42That happens in other areas. These figures are positive.
0:08:42 > 0:08:44Do you feel positive?
0:08:44 > 0:08:49There has been so much emphasis on disheartening figures in other areas of Wales.
0:08:49 > 0:08:51How does that influence you?
0:08:54 > 0:08:59It is a difficult question, I know. There is another hand up here.
0:08:59 > 0:09:04The Census didn't ask... We are bilingual.
0:09:04 > 0:09:09But as I understand it, the Census asks, can you speak Welsh?
0:09:09 > 0:09:12You can speak English and put a tick next to Welsh.
0:09:12 > 0:09:14That's why I'm disappointed.
0:09:14 > 0:09:19More people should be speaking Welsh after going through Welsh medium schools,
0:09:19 > 0:09:21even if they don't use it outside.
0:09:21 > 0:09:27They can speak a little Welsh or some kind of Welsh.
0:09:27 > 0:09:30Why didn't they put a tick on the census?
0:09:30 > 0:09:33But they don't use it? Is that what you are suggesting?
0:09:33 > 0:09:37Yes, but they don't ask whether you use it.
0:09:37 > 0:09:42- They ask whether you can speak Welsh.- Let me ask a headteacher.
0:09:42 > 0:09:44Will you answer that?
0:09:44 > 0:09:49As one who was born and bred in the Valley and who comes
0:09:49 > 0:09:55from a non-Welsh speaking home, I have very positive feelings now.
0:09:55 > 0:09:59What we're trying to do here is restore a language
0:09:59 > 0:10:05that has never belonged to this current community, it did in the past.
0:10:05 > 0:10:08So we're talking about restoring a language.
0:10:08 > 0:10:11We have to protect the language in the strongholds
0:10:11 > 0:10:16but I feel what is crucial is planning for the language.
0:10:16 > 0:10:22Maybe that's where our friends in the Assembly need to think more widely.
0:10:22 > 0:10:25By planning, do you mean more Welsh language initiatives
0:10:25 > 0:10:27or more money for Welsh language initiatives?
0:10:27 > 0:10:30That is one way, you know.
0:10:30 > 0:10:37But these young people are brought up to be Welsh and bilingual,
0:10:37 > 0:10:42they spend their time in schools begin Welsh but they leave school
0:10:42 > 0:10:45and in this valley where there are no industries,
0:10:45 > 0:10:49the demographic changes and people move out of the valley
0:10:49 > 0:10:51and they don't have the opportunities.
0:10:51 > 0:10:54But if you look at restoring the language,
0:10:54 > 0:10:58if you look at the history of Hebrew or whatever,
0:10:58 > 0:11:05what has been there is a real intention and a real investment from the government.
0:11:05 > 0:11:07Penri Williams?
0:11:07 > 0:11:12There has been a growth in Welsh medium schools
0:11:12 > 0:11:17but we also need services through the medium of Welsh.
0:11:17 > 0:11:19We are in a sports centre tonight
0:11:19 > 0:11:23and a high percentage of the classes that are held here
0:11:23 > 0:11:25should be provided through the medium of Welsh.
0:11:25 > 0:11:28Would there be enough demand for them?
0:11:28 > 0:11:31If they have been to school and spoken Welsh in school,
0:11:31 > 0:11:35they would want swimming lessons and football coaching
0:11:35 > 0:11:37through the medium of Welsh.
0:11:37 > 0:11:42- But are the facilities available? - They are.
0:11:42 > 0:11:46You can train people to do the work
0:11:46 > 0:11:54but what you need is the county council to provide the services.
0:11:54 > 0:11:55Thank you very much.
0:11:55 > 0:11:58Branwen Cennard, you were born and bred in this valley.
0:11:58 > 0:12:01I feel quite positive, I have to say.
0:12:01 > 0:12:03I have lived most of my life in Treorchy
0:12:03 > 0:12:07and now I can go to the main street in Treorchy and go to shops
0:12:07 > 0:12:12and there are young people who have been through the education system
0:12:12 > 0:12:17and I can shop through the medium of Welsh.
0:12:17 > 0:12:20That was not possible when I was in school.
0:12:20 > 0:12:27So I do think there is a strong awareness that is more than exists maybe in the strongholds,
0:12:27 > 0:12:31where people tend to take things for granted.
0:12:31 > 0:12:35There are a number of learners here tonight
0:12:35 > 0:12:40and people realise that there is a battle to be won.
0:12:40 > 0:12:43Let me ask a few of the young people here,
0:12:43 > 0:12:47do you speak Welsh outside of the school?
0:12:47 > 0:12:52- Do you speak Welsh with your friends outside school?- Yes.
0:12:52 > 0:12:57We've been given the opportunity.
0:12:57 > 0:13:01We learn from tonight and other things that the language
0:13:01 > 0:13:06is starting to go and I feel we need to speak it.
0:13:06 > 0:13:09I speak Welsh to my friends and text in Welsh.
0:13:09 > 0:13:14What about you in front of her? Do you speak Welsh outside of school?
0:13:14 > 0:13:18I agree. My friends and I sometimes speak Welsh outside of school.
0:13:18 > 0:13:24The other problem is that sometimes people don't speak enough Welsh in school either.
0:13:24 > 0:13:27- In school? - Yes. They take it for granted.
0:13:29 > 0:13:31It is a problem.
0:13:31 > 0:13:34Let's go to the former teacher on the panel, Keith Davies.
0:13:34 > 0:13:37Listening to Branwen talking just now,
0:13:37 > 0:13:40I was disappointed with the figures for Treorchy because I think
0:13:40 > 0:13:47around 15 % in the community said they could speak Welsh.
0:13:47 > 0:13:49- Were you expecting a higher figure? - Yes.
0:13:49 > 0:13:53I expected a higher figure having worked in the Valley.
0:13:53 > 0:13:55I thought it would be higher.
0:13:55 > 0:14:00Many people have said that the biggest problem is outside school.
0:14:00 > 0:14:06This area has four Welsh medium comprehensive schools.
0:14:06 > 0:14:09Using Welsh outside of school is the answer now.
0:14:09 > 0:14:12It does happen in the strongholds as well.
0:14:12 > 0:14:16Places like the Amman Valley and the Tawe Valley.
0:14:16 > 0:14:21The Assembly is looking at the initiatives in those areas.
0:14:21 > 0:14:25Do the initiatives offer young people opportunities?
0:14:25 > 0:14:30If you look at the Census, and you look at the percentage
0:14:30 > 0:14:35of young people who can speak Welsh, it's very high.
0:14:35 > 0:14:40But what happens outside of school is the biggest problem.
0:14:40 > 0:14:43Does the Assembly and the Welsh Government offer enough leadership?
0:14:43 > 0:14:48You might have heard Carwyn Jones say, he has a daughter and a son.
0:14:48 > 0:14:51They are in a Welsh medium school
0:14:51 > 0:14:53but they speak English with their friends.
0:14:53 > 0:14:57He is talking about having a big conference to talk about...
0:14:57 > 0:15:00Another talking shop?
0:15:00 > 0:15:07We're not going to have the right answers for some people so we have to work together.
0:15:07 > 0:15:13- Suzy Davies?- I think we all need to have patience.
0:15:13 > 0:15:17The number of young people speaking Welsh is growing.
0:15:17 > 0:15:23A lot of them come through the English system and learn Welsh as a second language.
0:15:23 > 0:15:25They don't put on the Census, for example,
0:15:25 > 0:15:29that they can speak Welsh because they don't feel they can speak Welsh.
0:15:29 > 0:15:32So there is something wrong with teaching Welsh as a second language?
0:15:32 > 0:15:38One of the things that does my head in, as we say in Rhydfelen...
0:15:38 > 0:15:42- Say that again.- One of the things that does my head in...
0:15:42 > 0:15:46That is the first for Pawb a'i Farn!
0:15:46 > 0:15:50It's this idea as Welsh as a first language and the second language.
0:15:50 > 0:15:56I am not sure what my first language is now and I don't mind about that.
0:15:56 > 0:16:00- I'm happy and uncomfortable.- You're comfortable in both.- Exactly.
0:16:00 > 0:16:07- Cris Dafis?- Welsh speakers are at fault for not being more welcoming.
0:16:07 > 0:16:10There are people who should know better
0:16:10 > 0:16:13who say things publicly about the standard of people's Welsh
0:16:13 > 0:16:16and it makes people say, "Oh, God, no, I can speak Welsh".
0:16:16 > 0:16:18And actually, they can speak Welsh.
0:16:18 > 0:16:22So you want those who speak the standard of the language to keep quiet?
0:16:22 > 0:16:24Yes because they are harming the language.
0:16:24 > 0:16:27You asked the question, Elise, so you can end our discussion.
0:16:27 > 0:16:31I'd like to go back to what Keith was saying about children
0:16:31 > 0:16:34speaking English with each other despite the fact
0:16:34 > 0:16:36they come from Welsh speaking homes.
0:16:36 > 0:16:38I accept that and I know that is true.
0:16:38 > 0:16:41But we also have to think about the parents.
0:16:41 > 0:16:46I know of a number of parents who can speak Welsh but to turn to English
0:16:46 > 0:16:49and therefore are not sending the right messages to their children.
0:16:49 > 0:16:52- It's not only children, we have to look at adults.- You are right.
0:16:52 > 0:16:57The statistics show that only 80% of parents,
0:16:57 > 0:17:03where the mother and father both speak Welsh, only 80% speak Welsh with their children.
0:17:03 > 0:17:06That means 20% don't speak Welsh with their children.
0:17:06 > 0:17:09The elephant in the room is the lack of transferring.
0:17:09 > 0:17:15But is it important that people can speak Welsh to speak Welsh all the time? No.
0:17:15 > 0:17:18If they transfer the language to the generations to come,
0:17:18 > 0:17:22people who speak Welsh don't have to use their Welsh all the time.
0:17:22 > 0:17:26- Suzy Davies?- What we are looking for is one bilingual community
0:17:26 > 0:17:28and not two communities that speak only one language.
0:17:28 > 0:17:31That's it. Plenty to think about for weeks to come.
0:17:31 > 0:17:37Let's move on to our next question which comes from Anthony Cook in the back row. What is your question?
0:17:37 > 0:17:40These valleys have been neglected for many years.
0:17:40 > 0:17:45Isn't it time we had a new vision for the future?
0:17:45 > 0:17:49It is a question we discuss every time we come to the valleys.
0:17:49 > 0:17:52These valleys have been neglected for many years.
0:17:52 > 0:17:57Isn't it time we had a new vision for the future? Iestyn Davies?
0:17:57 > 0:18:01Yes, but as well as vision we need leadership.
0:18:01 > 0:18:06We need a new generation of people who will step forward.
0:18:06 > 0:18:12What we lost during those difficult times in the 80s
0:18:12 > 0:18:17when we lost the coal mines, the labour unions, the chapels,
0:18:17 > 0:18:21the social clubs, the brass bands and the male voice choirs,
0:18:21 > 0:18:26we lost social and cultural leadership as well as losing the economy.
0:18:26 > 0:18:31I think it's important that those two go together.
0:18:31 > 0:18:34I would like to challenge the politicians on the panel
0:18:34 > 0:18:36and those in the audience.
0:18:36 > 0:18:40What we don't want is more bureaucracy and more schemes
0:18:40 > 0:18:42and initiatives and good ideas.
0:18:42 > 0:18:45What we need is leadership.
0:18:45 > 0:18:50Do you mean leadership locally or something from above?
0:18:50 > 0:18:55I don't mind whether it comes from the Assembly or from Mars
0:18:55 > 0:18:57or from the community.
0:18:57 > 0:19:00What we need is people who say this is our community,
0:19:00 > 0:19:04this is our heritage and we are going to lead the way.
0:19:04 > 0:19:07Are you suggesting that doesn't exist here?
0:19:07 > 0:19:11I think what has happened is that we have professionalised
0:19:11 > 0:19:14this business of reviving communities.
0:19:14 > 0:19:18- Are you talking about work?- Exactly.
0:19:18 > 0:19:21It's important that that energy comes from the community
0:19:21 > 0:19:25and we say to the community, you have the answer
0:19:25 > 0:19:28and you have the right to give that leadership.
0:19:28 > 0:19:31- Suzy Davies. - It depends what you mean by neglect.
0:19:31 > 0:19:34If you are talking from a financial point of view,
0:19:34 > 0:19:38billions of pounds have come into West Wales and the valleys
0:19:38 > 0:19:41during the last decades.
0:19:41 > 0:19:45But the neglect is how that money has been spent.
0:19:45 > 0:19:49It is a matter of leadership, I think.
0:19:49 > 0:19:55Politicians haven't looked at how the money was used effectively.
0:19:55 > 0:20:01- So it hasn't been spent properly? - Some of it has been spent properly.
0:20:01 > 0:20:03Especially the money from Europe which goes straight to the
0:20:03 > 0:20:09strong groups in the community, for example Valleys Kids in this area.
0:20:09 > 0:20:13But a lot of the money goes around and around in the system.
0:20:13 > 0:20:15Whose fault is that?
0:20:15 > 0:20:19- Whose fault is that? - It is the fault of businesses.
0:20:19 > 0:20:24- Honestly. If you read today's Western Mail...- Can I just finish.
0:20:24 > 0:20:29When the money goes round and round in the system,
0:20:29 > 0:20:33it doesn't go down to the small businesses which can revive these communities.
0:20:33 > 0:20:35But whose fault is it?
0:20:35 > 0:20:39I've just said. Who's been in government in the Assembly for a decade?
0:20:39 > 0:20:42Right, we have reached the Labour Government in the Assembly.
0:20:42 > 0:20:45- Keith Davies? - I accept some of the blame.
0:20:45 > 0:20:48If you read today's Western mail,
0:20:48 > 0:20:53Edwina Hart told the Cardiff Business Club yesterday
0:20:53 > 0:20:59that the money that has come from the structural fund has come out
0:20:59 > 0:21:04to the valleys and West Wales but the people who've asked
0:21:04 > 0:21:10for the money and used it are the charities and the county councils.
0:21:10 > 0:21:14- But businesses have not asked for that money.- I doubt that very much.
0:21:14 > 0:21:18- Is that true, Iestyn Davies? - No, it's not true.
0:21:18 > 0:21:21The money is there and they don't ask for it.
0:21:21 > 0:21:26The money is there but the systems and the bureaucracy
0:21:26 > 0:21:30means that unless you have somebody professional to go after that money,
0:21:30 > 0:21:34you can't get your hands on the money.
0:21:34 > 0:21:38The same is true about community projects.
0:21:38 > 0:21:41Projects like Valleys Kids are great
0:21:41 > 0:21:45but what about the grassroots projects that are out there?
0:21:45 > 0:21:49Who does Iestyn work for now? For the Federation of Small Businesses.
0:21:49 > 0:21:52And you work for the Labour Party.
0:21:52 > 0:21:54The party that has been in power for decades.
0:21:54 > 0:21:57Isn't he there to help businesses?
0:21:57 > 0:22:03What this report says today is that we have a head of the civil service
0:22:03 > 0:22:07who is the first to have an interest in business, so we have had problems.
0:22:07 > 0:22:12But to help the small businesses, we need things like the Federation.
0:22:12 > 0:22:19What has happened to the money up until now is that it has been used locally.
0:22:19 > 0:22:22They may have built a bridge, which took a year.
0:22:22 > 0:22:26But the bridge is finished and there is no work for people.
0:22:26 > 0:22:30Are the valleys in a better condition
0:22:30 > 0:22:33than they were when you were growing up?
0:22:33 > 0:22:37If you're talking about infrastructure. The roads and railways...
0:22:37 > 0:22:42When you come to the valleys, do you get the impression that this place is better than when you were younger?
0:22:42 > 0:22:45- No, I have to admit. - There has been a deterioration.
0:22:45 > 0:22:48There has been a deterioration, there is no doubt about that.
0:22:48 > 0:22:54And during that period, Labour has been in power for all those years.
0:22:54 > 0:22:58So the responsibility lies at your door, Keith Davies, and your party.
0:22:58 > 0:23:03Because businesses have not asked for the money and used it
0:23:03 > 0:23:06and it has gone to the county councils,
0:23:06 > 0:23:10who have looked at things like roads and so on.
0:23:10 > 0:23:13I don't accept that because I know in my own region,
0:23:13 > 0:23:17there are places where small businesses go for the money
0:23:17 > 0:23:23but this is no money left because it has all gone to local councils.
0:23:23 > 0:23:26Let's go to Alun Cox. Give us a picture of the valleys as they are.
0:23:26 > 0:23:28Are these people right?
0:23:28 > 0:23:31I think Iestyn is right.
0:23:31 > 0:23:35There has been a deterioration in the valleys for a while.
0:23:35 > 0:23:38The deterioration in the way we ask for vision.
0:23:38 > 0:23:40The question asked what the new vision is.
0:23:40 > 0:23:45Well, it hasn't come from the politicians on this panel.
0:23:45 > 0:23:49In reality, the answer isn't money from Europe.
0:23:49 > 0:23:53The answer is not to look to the Labour Party to save us.
0:23:53 > 0:23:57The answer, as Iestyn Davies said, is for us
0:23:57 > 0:24:02to take responsibility for our own economy in the Rhondda
0:24:02 > 0:24:07and in the valleys and start new ventures ourselves.
0:24:07 > 0:24:12We are not going to wait for people to come in and save us.
0:24:12 > 0:24:16We have to save our own economy.
0:24:16 > 0:24:20- But you would still have to travel to Cardiff, isn't that the truth?- No.
0:24:20 > 0:24:23- That's the future.- No. That's not the future.
0:24:23 > 0:24:26A lot of people say now that that is the future
0:24:26 > 0:24:30and that we have to build Cardiff as a city region.
0:24:30 > 0:24:32But that's not the answer.
0:24:32 > 0:24:39- The answer is to spread the businesses outside Cardiff. - Thank you.
0:24:40 > 0:24:43Let's hear from one of the pupils from Ysgol y Cymer.
0:24:43 > 0:24:47I believe the problem is that we're talking about spreading out money.
0:24:47 > 0:24:50We're handing out money to businesses which are dying.
0:24:50 > 0:24:55The coal mines have closed.
0:24:55 > 0:24:59Every business goes to places like China or Taiwan.
0:24:59 > 0:25:02We need a new unique selling point.
0:25:02 > 0:25:06A long time ago it was coal. We need to start making things.
0:25:06 > 0:25:09A leader needs a good idea to lead.
0:25:09 > 0:25:13We need a good idea, something new to invest money into.
0:25:13 > 0:25:16Do you have any ideas for this selling point?
0:25:16 > 0:25:18- Recycling.- Recycling, yes.
0:25:18 > 0:25:21Nobody is recycling locally any more. It all goes to China.
0:25:21 > 0:25:26What about the suggestion coming from Cardiff that this is the future,
0:25:26 > 0:25:28everyone should travel to Cardiff or Swansea
0:25:28 > 0:25:32- if you live further to the west? - Perhaps, I'm not sure.
0:25:32 > 0:25:37- Would you be willing to travel to Cardiff?- Yes.
0:25:37 > 0:25:44We have four parties in the Assembly who accept the free market.
0:25:44 > 0:25:48Perhaps Labour and Plaid Cymru accept it under duress,
0:25:48 > 0:25:52but the Tories and Lib Dems embrace it.
0:25:52 > 0:25:56The free market has caused these problems and to be honest,
0:25:56 > 0:26:02I can't see a future for the Valleys, Wales or the planet
0:26:02 > 0:26:06if we are going to allow a system which allows
0:26:06 > 0:26:12pollution in the environment and in the food chain and wars.
0:26:12 > 0:26:16If we're talking about vision, we need something to tackle this.
0:26:16 > 0:26:19Thanks, Gareth. What would you like to say?
0:26:19 > 0:26:22There are plenty of opportunities in the Valleys,
0:26:22 > 0:26:25but we need a leader who can take charge.
0:26:25 > 0:26:28We have things like parks
0:26:28 > 0:26:34and buildings which could be used to create new businesses.
0:26:34 > 0:26:40But we have to get someone in to share out the money to do this.
0:26:40 > 0:26:43Do you believe that you will be staying in this area?
0:26:43 > 0:26:47I would like to stay in this area because there are many things to do.
0:26:47 > 0:26:53But there's nothing here for me now. I'll have to go to Cardiff.
0:26:53 > 0:26:55Let's go to the front row.
0:26:55 > 0:26:58Regenerating an area doesn't happen overnight.
0:26:58 > 0:27:01One of the schemes that did make a difference in the Rhondda
0:27:01 > 0:27:03was the Communities First scheme.
0:27:03 > 0:27:06Unfortunately, the Government has broken that up
0:27:06 > 0:27:10by federalizing the community projects.
0:27:10 > 0:27:14They are now area projects and they have to work to the aims
0:27:14 > 0:27:17set by the Welsh Government and not the aims of the community.
0:27:17 > 0:27:21That is going to be a terrible loss for the Valleys.
0:27:21 > 0:27:23Thank you.
0:27:23 > 0:27:26Suzie Davies talked about the money which has come to the Valleys
0:27:26 > 0:27:29and West Wales.
0:27:29 > 0:27:32David Cameron has just managed to freeze that money.
0:27:32 > 0:27:33The effect of that
0:27:33 > 0:27:37is that there will be less money available in future.
0:27:37 > 0:27:39That is a big problem.
0:27:39 > 0:27:42But some blame rests on Keith and his party.
0:27:42 > 0:27:45Keith has admitted to that and has apologised.
0:27:45 > 0:27:48We can see the effect of such decisions by councils
0:27:48 > 0:27:50when we see new pavements being put in.
0:27:50 > 0:27:54Aberdare is having new pavements, but there is no work there.
0:27:54 > 0:27:58There's nothing to retain our youngsters there.
0:27:58 > 0:28:01Anthony described it as neglect.
0:28:01 > 0:28:04I don't know if Anthony wants to come back on this.
0:28:04 > 0:28:07Does it feel like a place that has been neglected?
0:28:07 > 0:28:10Be honest, is it a place without much hope?
0:28:10 > 0:28:13Yes, you all seem to agree. Branwen is shaking her head.
0:28:13 > 0:28:17It isn't a place without hope. But it has been neglected.
0:28:17 > 0:28:22The first two topics that we've discussed go hand in hand.
0:28:22 > 0:28:26The answer for the language is to create jobs.
0:28:26 > 0:28:28The answer lies in the economy.
0:28:28 > 0:28:31The responsibility lies with the politicians in Cardiff Bay.
0:28:31 > 0:28:33They are there to offer leadership.
0:28:33 > 0:28:36Chris Dafis, we haven't heard from you.
0:28:36 > 0:28:41I believe the question was about vision.
0:28:41 > 0:28:44What strikes me is that there is a lack of vision.
0:28:44 > 0:28:47Where is the vision? Who is leading Wales these days?
0:28:47 > 0:28:52Politicians don't seem to be taking charge and offering a vision.
0:28:52 > 0:28:57It's not just in this area, but for the whole of Wales.
0:28:57 > 0:29:02What is the vision for this nation? It doesn't exist.
0:29:02 > 0:29:06Does that cover politicians in general?
0:29:06 > 0:29:10There certainly isn't a sense of a vision
0:29:10 > 0:29:15and that this is where we are heading as an area or as a nation.
0:29:15 > 0:29:16If I could answer your question
0:29:16 > 0:29:19about whether this is a community without hope, no.
0:29:19 > 0:29:22There isn't a community without hope in Wales.
0:29:22 > 0:29:26From time to time, perhaps the pulse will be a little weak.
0:29:26 > 0:29:30But if you look across this country, the community is still alive
0:29:30 > 0:29:32and the heart is still pumping.
0:29:32 > 0:29:35Thanks. That brings the first part of our programme to an end.
0:29:35 > 0:29:40Join us in Ystrad Rhondda after the break.
0:29:54 > 0:30:01Welcome back. You're watching Pawb A'i Farn from the Rhondda. We're having a lively evening.
0:30:01 > 0:30:04Our next question is from Seren Haf Macmillan.
0:30:04 > 0:30:06Seren, your question please.
0:30:07 > 0:30:11It was suggested this week that soft drinks should be taxed.
0:30:11 > 0:30:15Would that be a good idea as obesity is such a problem?
0:30:15 > 0:30:26Seren, thank you. Should soft drinks be taxed?
0:30:26 > 0:30:30Let's go to a member of the audience.
0:30:30 > 0:30:36He realised obesity was a problem and has tackled the situation.
0:30:36 > 0:30:38Councillor Geraint Hopkins.
0:30:38 > 0:30:40How much weight have you lost in the past year?
0:30:40 > 0:30:45In the past year, I've lost 12 stone.
0:30:45 > 0:30:46Yes, 12 stone.
0:30:52 > 0:30:54How did you manage to do that, Geraint?
0:30:54 > 0:30:59No carbs at all. No bread, potatoes nor pasta.
0:30:59 > 0:31:03That was for the first six months and then just a little bit.
0:31:03 > 0:31:07One of our loyal audience members over the years
0:31:07 > 0:31:11and one of Rhondda Cynon Taf's councillors,
0:31:11 > 0:31:13what was the problem in the past?
0:31:13 > 0:31:16You were obviously overeating.
0:31:16 > 0:31:18How much time have you got?
0:31:18 > 0:31:22Give us an idea. Were these drinks, for instance, a problem?
0:31:22 > 0:31:27A bit, yes, but it was mainly the food.
0:31:27 > 0:31:32But the drinks too. I'd drink a lot of Diet Coke.
0:31:32 > 0:31:36Stop drinking Diet Coke.
0:31:36 > 0:31:40Sorry. Diet Coke might sue me now.
0:31:40 > 0:31:44I'm more concerned they'll prosecute Pawb A'i Farn, not you.
0:31:44 > 0:31:46That was my opinion.
0:31:46 > 0:31:48But are you glad you made the effort?
0:31:48 > 0:31:50The problem is, the schools
0:31:50 > 0:31:56and the government to a lot to educate people
0:31:56 > 0:31:59to eat better but the industry can pay much more for advertising
0:31:59 > 0:32:07to encourage people to eat.
0:32:07 > 0:32:12Even someone like you, a county councillor, can be influenced by advertising?
0:32:12 > 0:32:14Yes, isn't it shameful? Sorry.
0:32:14 > 0:32:17Geraint, thank you for being so honest. Susie.
0:32:17 > 0:32:20I'm not sure I'm qualified to speak!
0:32:20 > 0:32:26It's a complicated problem. Ask anyone who's followed diets
0:32:26 > 0:32:31and they'll tell you that the reason people put on weight
0:32:31 > 0:32:34isn't because food is cheap. That's simplifying it.
0:32:34 > 0:32:44If you tax soft drinks, people will just pay more for being fat.
0:32:44 > 0:32:45I don't think it would work.
0:32:45 > 0:32:47People will drink it anyway.
0:32:47 > 0:32:52I think so. Of course, there is an issue with foods like junk foods.
0:32:52 > 0:32:58It is cheap so it's easy for people to turn to instead of healthier food.
0:32:58 > 0:33:06This isn't a problem the government can solve, or locals can solve by themselves.
0:33:06 > 0:33:10The message is out there. People know what healthy food is.
0:33:10 > 0:33:15If it's that much of a problem, why can't the government change the rules?
0:33:15 > 0:33:19They've done that with smoking and drink-driving.
0:33:19 > 0:33:25I'm not sure this will work because people don't look upon soft drinks as treats.
0:33:25 > 0:33:29They look upon them as a normal part of life.
0:33:29 > 0:33:34People aren't going to stop for the sake of a few pence.
0:33:34 > 0:33:36What's the answer? To educate?
0:33:36 > 0:33:41There's a lot of education there but there isn't much focus on drinks specifically
0:33:41 > 0:33:44so this could help.
0:33:44 > 0:33:49How to get people to buy into this is much more complicated.
0:33:49 > 0:33:56I think there are many different reasons why people overeat and eat the wrong things.
0:33:56 > 0:34:02In my experience, when you're feeling down, or going through a tough time,
0:34:02 > 0:34:07you don't respect yourself enough to make healthy choices.
0:34:07 > 0:34:13The problem with obesity is again associated with other issues
0:34:13 > 0:34:17like people's economic standard of living.
0:34:17 > 0:34:21It's related to how you feel about yourself
0:34:21 > 0:34:26and sticking a few pennies, because we are talking pennies here...
0:34:26 > 0:34:28Twenty was the suggestion.
0:34:28 > 0:34:31Yes. That will make no difference at all.
0:34:31 > 0:34:33There will always be cheap pop.
0:34:33 > 0:34:40I've got two sons in their twenties and they drink diet coke and things
0:34:40 > 0:34:44and they go to Tesco or Asda, a pound a bottle.
0:34:44 > 0:34:49If it goes up 20%, that's 20 pence. That will make no difference.
0:34:49 > 0:34:55What would make a difference is like with this smoking business.
0:34:55 > 0:34:59We should change things like advertising before 9pm.
0:35:08 > 0:35:11But what is happening is that when they are there,
0:35:11 > 0:35:15they get these offers. Two meals free and so on.
0:35:15 > 0:35:20All this advertising is going to lead young people into these places.
0:35:20 > 0:35:24Shouldn't the parents be setting an example?
0:35:24 > 0:35:28They don't put weight on because they play rugby.
0:35:28 > 0:35:31They go to the gym and that is important too.
0:35:31 > 0:35:32People need to walk.
0:35:32 > 0:35:36Nia Griffiths is in the same office as me and she said to me
0:35:36 > 0:35:40one day, her sister is a doctor, "Do you know what my sister told me?
0:35:40 > 0:35:45"Walk or die." "What do you mean by that?" "You have to keep fit,
0:35:45 > 0:35:48"you have to ensure you don't sit in the car all the time."
0:35:48 > 0:35:52I'll ask the teachers here, do the children do less PE these days?
0:35:52 > 0:35:56We'll see. You want to come back in on this?
0:35:56 > 0:35:59We can advertise however much we want.
0:35:59 > 0:36:03We can create advertising campaigns.
0:36:03 > 0:36:07But until you tackle what people feel about themselves
0:36:07 > 0:36:10and you people have a feeling that they are contributing,
0:36:10 > 0:36:12that they have a future in the world,
0:36:12 > 0:36:16they're not going to bother about themselves.
0:36:16 > 0:36:19We know what the choices are, but if you don't care,
0:36:19 > 0:36:22you're not going to do anything about it.
0:36:22 > 0:36:26Can I turn to the audience? Yes?
0:36:26 > 0:36:31- As far as how much children do at school, as a teacher myself...- PE?
0:36:31 > 0:36:33- Yes.- There we are, you know better than anyone.
0:36:33 > 0:36:37As far as balance, if you burn off the calories you
0:36:37 > 0:36:40put into the body, you won't gain weight.
0:36:40 > 0:36:44So it's not just the opportunities that are available, there are no restrictions.
0:36:44 > 0:36:47But are children doing less PE than they used to?
0:36:47 > 0:36:50I think that maybe technology is to blame, and society.
0:36:50 > 0:36:55Children are not out there on the streets, as they were when I was a child.
0:36:55 > 0:36:58- Maybe they are too safe. - And what about their diet?
0:36:58 > 0:37:00To an extent, diets have improved.
0:37:00 > 0:37:04- There is a duty to improve what is available.- In the school?
0:37:04 > 0:37:09But what about when they go round the corner and buy something cheap in the shop?
0:37:09 > 0:37:12- We keep our children on site. - Well, there we are.
0:37:12 > 0:37:15- Which school?- Rhydywaun.
0:37:15 > 0:37:22Right. Where are the Cymer children? Come on, Seren, your question.
0:37:22 > 0:37:25I know that healthy food is important in losing weight,
0:37:25 > 0:37:28but PE is important too.
0:37:28 > 0:37:32I don't think there is enough emphasis on PE in schools to
0:37:32 > 0:37:37enable the children to be thin and more importantly, healthy.
0:37:37 > 0:37:44- You don't do much PE?- I used to, but I didn't do enough really.
0:37:44 > 0:37:47- I don't do enough.- Oh, well. An admission.
0:37:47 > 0:37:49What about you?
0:37:49 > 0:37:52It's not just the fact that children are eating too much,
0:37:52 > 0:37:55eating healthily can be difficult for children.
0:37:55 > 0:37:58The fact that McDonald's is quite cheap
0:37:58 > 0:38:02and it's just round the corner. You just walk up and buy the food.
0:38:02 > 0:38:07You don't want to go home and put pasta in the oven
0:38:07 > 0:38:13and everything like that. Children need cookery lessons,
0:38:13 > 0:38:17children need to learn how to make these meals.
0:38:17 > 0:38:21Yes, cookery lessons. More emphasis on that.
0:38:21 > 0:38:23Come back in on that.
0:38:23 > 0:38:28As far as emphasis in schools, what might help now is that
0:38:28 > 0:38:33since they started banding schools, there is more emphasis on leadership
0:38:33 > 0:38:37teams and the old days of people leaving the site for sport
0:38:37 > 0:38:42and drama and so on is lost because of the strain placed on the school.
0:38:42 > 0:38:45Yes. Branwen, in the back row.
0:38:45 > 0:38:47This is also a matter of resources.
0:38:47 > 0:38:51Until two years ago, maybe three, I swam three times
0:38:51 > 0:38:54a week at Treherbert Swimming Pool at the top of the valley.
0:38:54 > 0:38:59There is no swimming pool in Treherbert, thanks to Labour.
0:38:59 > 0:39:03If you live at the top of the valley, you have to
0:39:03 > 0:39:07pay £4.60 to go by bus to the swimming pool in this building.
0:39:07 > 0:39:10I agree that PE is important,
0:39:10 > 0:39:14but also this is a government matter, people need places to go.
0:39:14 > 0:39:17People also need to be prepared to travel.
0:39:17 > 0:39:21It's not that far to come down here. It's a superb resource.
0:39:21 > 0:39:25If you don't have a car and you rely on public transport, it's tough.
0:39:25 > 0:39:30And people are less likely to come if it will cost them money
0:39:30 > 0:39:35- and take time. - Iestyn, you have not contributed.
0:39:35 > 0:39:38Well, it is a very complex question.
0:39:38 > 0:39:45One of the options is to punish the people who make this kind of food.
0:39:45 > 0:39:51I would be happy to support the idea of stopping
0:39:51 > 0:39:55the advertising of these drinks and these deals.
0:39:55 > 0:39:58But as a businessman, no extra tax?
0:39:58 > 0:40:02Well, taxes on the companies that make this produce,
0:40:02 > 0:40:06rather than those selling the produce, I think, at the moment.
0:40:06 > 0:40:10There are so many restrictions on small businesses as it is.
0:40:10 > 0:40:12But another option is rewarding,
0:40:12 > 0:40:19what about a tax break of companies or those making healthier food?
0:40:19 > 0:40:24If we had the power in Wales to take such action, it would be an option.
0:40:24 > 0:40:26At the moment, we do not.
0:40:26 > 0:40:29So some of these things we could do are not an option right now.
0:40:29 > 0:40:33I'm going to leave there. I want to squeeze another question in, but let's go for a break first.
0:40:33 > 0:40:36Join us in two minutes.
0:40:51 > 0:40:55Welcome back to the final part of this edition of Pawb a'i Farn.
0:40:55 > 0:40:59We are in Ystrad Rhondda, in the leisure centre,
0:40:59 > 0:41:03where it is a little cold, but the chat is keeping us warm.
0:41:03 > 0:41:06The next question from Gwyn Evans. What is your question?
0:41:06 > 0:41:10We cannot continue this way, said the Education Minister yesterday.
0:41:10 > 0:41:13Is it time the councils lost the right to provide
0:41:13 > 0:41:17- education for our children? - Thank you, Gwyn, for that question.
0:41:17 > 0:41:21We cannot continue this way, said Leighton Andrews,
0:41:21 > 0:41:24the Education Minister, yesterday.
0:41:24 > 0:41:27Is it time the councils lost the right to provide
0:41:27 > 0:41:29education for our children?
0:41:29 > 0:41:32And we have just the man on the panel,
0:41:32 > 0:41:35as a former director of education, Keith Davies.
0:41:35 > 0:41:38Well, I agree with the first sentence.
0:41:38 > 0:41:40I don't agree with the second.
0:41:40 > 0:41:45The problem we have in Wales is that there are too many education
0:41:45 > 0:41:48authorities. There are 22 of them.
0:41:48 > 0:41:53I worked in the Rhondda when there were eight education authorities.
0:41:53 > 0:41:57And the most important thing is to appoint head teachers.
0:41:57 > 0:42:00And I remember the director of education calling me in,
0:42:00 > 0:42:06Ken Hopkins from Porth, "The results of the summer are here," he said.
0:42:06 > 0:42:09"What we'll do tomorrow, we'll call in the head
0:42:09 > 0:42:14"teachers of the ten worst performing schools in Mid Glam."
0:42:14 > 0:42:16And that's what we did.
0:42:16 > 0:42:21The following morning, we called in the ten head teachers
0:42:21 > 0:42:23and asked them how they were going to improve
0:42:23 > 0:42:26because there was research at the time form the Open University and it
0:42:26 > 0:42:31was in English, "The most important thing we do..." And what was it?
0:42:31 > 0:42:36- Appointing the right head teachers. - Isn't that happening, Keith?
0:42:36 > 0:42:42It doesn't happen now because what happened after then was you
0:42:42 > 0:42:48had a team, right, in an authority such as Mid Glam,
0:42:48 > 0:42:51of people who could work with the heads.
0:42:51 > 0:42:56What you have now is authorities that are too small to have
0:42:56 > 0:42:58teams that can work with the heads.
0:42:58 > 0:43:03So the heads of these education authorities, you claim,
0:43:03 > 0:43:07are not asking the head teachers the right questions?
0:43:07 > 0:43:11No, they can't provide the help the schools need.
0:43:11 > 0:43:16I remember, we had a debate with the Conservatives during the time
0:43:16 > 0:43:21of Kenneth Baker and I was a member of the union at the time.
0:43:21 > 0:43:27And we told Kenneth Baker, "Each authority needs 15 consultants."
0:43:27 > 0:43:30- Right.- And Kenneth Baker agreed.
0:43:30 > 0:43:34But unfortunately, who was the prime minister at the time?
0:43:34 > 0:43:37And she said no. And do you know why she said no?
0:43:37 > 0:43:40If she'd agreed, she would have had to pay for them.
0:43:40 > 0:43:43You've had plenty of time, but what do you want?
0:43:43 > 0:43:46Fewer councils or no councils at all, no authorities?
0:43:46 > 0:43:48Fewer, I would want.
0:43:48 > 0:43:52Fewer councils, like we had 15 years ago.
0:43:52 > 0:43:56- Suzy?- It's nice to hear some honesty from Keith Davies
0:43:56 > 0:43:59because in my opinion, what has been happening here is the minister,
0:43:59 > 0:44:01who has been busy in the world of education,
0:44:01 > 0:44:06using what is happening with the latest results to try and create
0:44:06 > 0:44:12fewer local authorities without admitting that is what he wants.
0:44:12 > 0:44:18I noticed an authority yesterday with probably the best
0:44:18 > 0:44:24results in Wales and they were classified as unsatisfactory.
0:44:24 > 0:44:28- You think Leighton Andrews is being dishonest?- Can I say that?
0:44:28 > 0:44:31You can say what you like. I'm just asking.
0:44:31 > 0:44:34- Well, as I said, Keith Davies has been a little more honest.- Right.
0:44:34 > 0:44:38I disagree because I think Leighton Andrews has been very honest
0:44:38 > 0:44:41and it's about time politicians and the leaders of local
0:44:41 > 0:44:47authorities and councils faced the reality of the situation.
0:44:47 > 0:44:50It is not good enough.
0:44:50 > 0:44:54If you talk to small businesses, you ask about standards,
0:44:54 > 0:44:59children, people in their 20s, going into the workplace,
0:44:59 > 0:45:02they not have the basic skills, unfortunately.
0:45:02 > 0:45:05And it's not the fault of the children or young people.
0:45:05 > 0:45:08It's the fault of the system that we have.
0:45:08 > 0:45:12Well, I was just reading the words of Leighton Andrews -
0:45:12 > 0:45:16we cannot continue with 22 local authorities that are underperforming.
0:45:16 > 0:45:19That strikes me as honesty.
0:45:19 > 0:45:22I don't think he's hiding behind anything here.
0:45:22 > 0:45:24Can I ask whether the rest of the Cabinet agrees with him?
0:45:24 > 0:45:27He is being quoted, not the rest of his Cabinet.
0:45:27 > 0:45:30But what is worth remembering here is that at least it is not
0:45:30 > 0:45:33Michael Gove making the decisions.
0:45:33 > 0:45:38Can I turn to the teachers? You contributed at the start of the programme. What about this point?
0:45:38 > 0:45:41Things are not good enough, according to Leighton Andrews.
0:45:41 > 0:45:46The authorities need to be taken out of those county councils.
0:45:46 > 0:45:49I won't put my head on the block and give you the answer,
0:45:49 > 0:45:51exactly what I think about that, but I agree -
0:45:51 > 0:45:54if things are not good enough, at the end of the day,
0:45:54 > 0:45:58the children of Wales deserve the best education.
0:45:58 > 0:46:02If you compare the results of Wales in the tests, we are very low.
0:46:02 > 0:46:04And that is not good enough.
0:46:04 > 0:46:08They deserve the best education and we need to move forward
0:46:08 > 0:46:10and provide that.
0:46:10 > 0:46:16- Gwyn Evans?- Leighton Andrews is blaming everyone.
0:46:16 > 0:46:19Labour have been in the Assembly for ten years.
0:46:19 > 0:46:23And now we're coming to this situation.
0:46:23 > 0:46:25They should have sorted it out sooner.
0:46:25 > 0:46:28Yes. Keith Davies can answer that. Can I return to you?
0:46:28 > 0:46:31As a head teacher, are you provided with enough leadership?
0:46:31 > 0:46:36You won't want to answer that in case anyone is listening!
0:46:36 > 0:46:39The question was, we cannot continue like this.
0:46:39 > 0:46:41Is it time to education from the councils -
0:46:41 > 0:46:44well, it depends what comes in their place.
0:46:44 > 0:46:48Well, Keith is suggesting a larger, regional body.
0:46:48 > 0:46:52Whatever it is, and I agree that more accountability is needed,
0:46:52 > 0:46:57but we need more leadership and I don't know the Welsh word for
0:46:57 > 0:47:03"rigour", but we need to ensure standards.
0:47:03 > 0:47:07And we need to ensure we have the resources to ensure the standards
0:47:07 > 0:47:13because schools are expected to continually improve with less money.
0:47:13 > 0:47:17Keith Davies, where have you been for the past 13 years?
0:47:17 > 0:47:20Well, what has happened recently is that as schools have been
0:47:20 > 0:47:24inspected every five years or six years,
0:47:24 > 0:47:30Leighton Andrews has decided that counties should be inspected.
0:47:30 > 0:47:35And he has come out and you may have the figures,
0:47:35 > 0:47:40not one authority has come out of this well.
0:47:40 > 0:47:44But aren't Estyn telling Leighton Andrews what he wants to hear?
0:47:44 > 0:47:49I think Estyn are entirely separate.
0:47:49 > 0:47:51They are separate,
0:47:51 > 0:47:56but not one authority in Wales has had an exceptional mark.
0:47:56 > 0:48:01And there are five authorities that have to improve.
0:48:01 > 0:48:04Remember, if I may challenge the teachers here,
0:48:04 > 0:48:08there is a responsibility on the education industry to take
0:48:08 > 0:48:13this on board and face the challenge given to them by Leighton Andrews.
0:48:13 > 0:48:16We must leave there. Thank you to the audience in the Rhondda.
0:48:16 > 0:48:20It's been a pleasure. And thank you to the panel.
0:48:20 > 0:48:23Next week, we will be in Carmarthen. Until then, goodbye.