0:00:24 > 0:00:26On our panel tonight -
0:00:26 > 0:00:29Owain Davies, the manager of an engineering company
0:00:29 > 0:00:31and a member of CBI Cymru.
0:00:31 > 0:00:35The editor of Heno which is broadcast every night from this town,
0:00:35 > 0:00:37Angharad Mair.
0:00:37 > 0:00:42The Llanelli MP and the Labour Welsh spokesperson, Nia Griffith.
0:00:42 > 0:00:48For Plaid Cymru, the Carmarthen East and Dinefwr MP Jonathan Edwards.
0:00:48 > 0:00:49Please welcome them all.
0:01:01 > 0:01:04Good evening and welcome to the programme.
0:01:04 > 0:01:06It's Thursday night, Pawb a'i Farn night,
0:01:06 > 0:01:10and I hope we have a lively hour of discussion.
0:01:10 > 0:01:14That should be possible not only because of our panel,
0:01:14 > 0:01:18but also because we are in Llanelli and the people from this town
0:01:18 > 0:01:21as well as from the villages from Trimsaran to Trefach,
0:01:21 > 0:01:23from Pontyberem to Burry Port, are used to giving us
0:01:23 > 0:01:26their opinions on this programme.
0:01:26 > 0:01:29I am confident tonight won't be different.
0:01:29 > 0:01:32After three programmes, I wonder whether our new timeslot pleases you.
0:01:32 > 0:01:36You can contact us through the usual methods.
0:01:36 > 0:01:38This is our final programme before Christmas,
0:01:38 > 0:01:43but in January we'll be back in Bethesda, Pontardawe and Llangefni.
0:01:43 > 0:01:47Tonight, we are in Llanelli and the first question, please?
0:01:47 > 0:01:49Steffan, your question please.
0:01:51 > 0:01:54This week, we heard that patients have had to wait for hours
0:01:54 > 0:01:57in ambulances outside the emergency units of our hospitals.
0:01:57 > 0:01:58How do we solve the problem?
0:02:00 > 0:02:02Thank you for the first question.
0:02:02 > 0:02:05This week we heard that patients had to wait for hours
0:02:05 > 0:02:09in ambulances outside the emergency units of our hospitals.
0:02:09 > 0:02:13How do we solve that problem? Let's start with Jonathan Edwards.
0:02:13 > 0:02:16When we discuss the NHS in Wales,
0:02:16 > 0:02:21it is important to remember that the staff achieve miracles every day.
0:02:21 > 0:02:24My wife is expecting a baby in the next few weeks
0:02:24 > 0:02:26and we know we are going to get excellent care
0:02:26 > 0:02:29when the big day arrives.
0:02:29 > 0:02:33The truth is with regard to these statistics,
0:02:33 > 0:02:36Wales has the worst statistics in the UK
0:02:36 > 0:02:40when it comes to transferring patients from ambulances into A&E.
0:02:40 > 0:02:44The images this week were quite iconic, I think.
0:02:44 > 0:02:48It showed the failure of the health policy in Wales.
0:02:48 > 0:02:53Almost 20 ambulances waiting in the car park in Morriston Hospital,
0:02:53 > 0:02:58doctors had to treat patients in the back of the ambulance.
0:02:58 > 0:03:01There are three things that need to be done.
0:03:01 > 0:03:05I was in Llandovery hospital recently in my constituency
0:03:05 > 0:03:08and the beds were completely full of patients who are ready
0:03:08 > 0:03:11to go back out to have community care.
0:03:11 > 0:03:14We have to solve this bed-blocking problem.
0:03:14 > 0:03:18It is a long-term problem and the Government has not done
0:03:18 > 0:03:23what's needed to strengthen social services.
0:03:23 > 0:03:27Secondly, we have to look at ways of raising capital
0:03:27 > 0:03:32within the NHS. That's we've published a policy of...
0:03:32 > 0:03:34But the money is not available?
0:03:34 > 0:03:37We are in a time of heavy cuts. The money isn't available.
0:03:37 > 0:03:40This is the point I'm trying to make.
0:03:40 > 0:03:43That's why Plaid Cymru has announced a policy
0:03:43 > 0:03:47of putting taxes on drinks which are full of sugar.
0:03:47 > 0:03:50That allows us to raise money.
0:03:50 > 0:03:54It stops people buying these drinks, which harms the health.
0:03:54 > 0:03:57It also raises money for investment in the service.
0:03:57 > 0:04:00- What is the third point? - What was the third point?
0:04:00 > 0:04:05Excellent. I'll move on. Nia Griffith?
0:04:05 > 0:04:08What we need to do is get the patients from the ambulances
0:04:08 > 0:04:10into the hospitals.
0:04:10 > 0:04:13We need to recruit more doctors.
0:04:13 > 0:04:17I'm glad the Health Minister told the Llanelli Star today
0:04:17 > 0:04:20that we are going to have a team of doctors in the emergency unit
0:04:20 > 0:04:23in Prince Philip Hospital.
0:04:23 > 0:04:28I have to say the Welsh Government has given the Health Service
0:04:28 > 0:04:32an extra £560 million.
0:04:32 > 0:04:36That reflects the priorities of the people of Wales.
0:04:36 > 0:04:39Does it also reflect the failure of the Labour policy
0:04:39 > 0:04:41as Jonathan suggested?
0:04:41 > 0:04:44The third point, we need to look again at the policy
0:04:44 > 0:04:50they have of centralising services and downgrading services.
0:04:50 > 0:04:53Where are the ambulances which go to Prince Philip Hospital,
0:04:53 > 0:04:56where are they going to go?
0:04:56 > 0:04:58The call won't decrease.
0:04:58 > 0:04:59They'll go to Glangwili, Morriston.
0:04:59 > 0:05:02It creates more problems in other hospitals.
0:05:02 > 0:05:06That is the point. The extra money is there to recruit more doctors.
0:05:06 > 0:05:09What we also need is more specialists to help them.
0:05:09 > 0:05:11If patients come in,
0:05:11 > 0:05:16we need to keep most of the services in our local hospitals.
0:05:16 > 0:05:18That's the important point.
0:05:18 > 0:05:23But, at the same time, we have to think about other things
0:05:23 > 0:05:28we can do, like getting rid of bed-blocking.
0:05:28 > 0:05:30We need to do other things too.
0:05:30 > 0:05:32The last time I met with the Ambulance Services,
0:05:32 > 0:05:36they said one of the biggest problems is the fact that
0:05:36 > 0:05:40doctors at the end of the morning and at the end of the afternoon
0:05:40 > 0:05:43go out to see patients and come together the same time.
0:05:43 > 0:05:48With mobile phones and so on, some doctors could go earlier.
0:05:48 > 0:05:51You're raising all sorts of points there. Angharad Mair?
0:05:51 > 0:05:53A few simple things could be done.
0:05:53 > 0:05:57We need to persuade people they have to go to the pharmacy first
0:05:57 > 0:05:59before going to the GP.
0:05:59 > 0:06:01We need to improve the GP service.
0:06:01 > 0:06:04You can't blame people for going to emergency units
0:06:04 > 0:06:07if they can't get an appointment with their GP.
0:06:07 > 0:06:11I understand why people in Llanelli have raised this question.
0:06:11 > 0:06:14Nia Griffith said there are going to be more doctors
0:06:14 > 0:06:17in Prince Philip Hospital.
0:06:17 > 0:06:23But they are empty words because the emergency unit is going to close.
0:06:23 > 0:06:26So you don't believe what Nia Griffiths has just said?
0:06:26 > 0:06:28That doctors will lead this?
0:06:28 > 0:06:30There will be doctors and nurses there
0:06:30 > 0:06:32and the emergency unit will be gone.
0:06:32 > 0:06:35That has been made clear.
0:06:35 > 0:06:39People will have to go to Carmarthen and Morriston Hospital.
0:06:39 > 0:06:41That's more than 20 miles away.
0:06:41 > 0:06:46Most of them will be treated here in Llanelli.
0:06:46 > 0:06:49They will continue to be treated in Llanelli.
0:06:49 > 0:06:53Apart from those with heart problems.
0:06:53 > 0:06:56- No, no...- One at a time.
0:06:56 > 0:07:00Nia Griffith has stood in opposition to her own party's policy
0:07:00 > 0:07:02for the past few years, now she supports it.
0:07:02 > 0:07:04Can I give you some statistics.
0:07:04 > 0:07:09In 2012, 33,000 people went to the emergency unit in Llanelli.
0:07:09 > 0:07:146,800 of them are emergency cases.
0:07:16 > 0:07:21That means now they would be moved to Morriston or Carmarthen.
0:07:21 > 0:07:23It isn't far. It is only half an hour.
0:07:23 > 0:07:27It's 20 miles to Carmarthen. It's 30 minutes to Morriston.
0:07:27 > 0:07:29When you are talking about an emergency situation,
0:07:29 > 0:07:32and if you are not treated immediately with something
0:07:32 > 0:07:36like a heart attack, your chances of surviving is reduced.
0:07:36 > 0:07:38The most important question is,
0:07:38 > 0:07:40where's the money going to come from?
0:07:40 > 0:07:46In 2009, when the Health Boards were cut from 22 to seven and,
0:07:46 > 0:07:52obviously, many of the highest jobs disappeared, none of them
0:07:52 > 0:07:55were asked to go voluntarily
0:07:55 > 0:07:58and nobody was made redundant.
0:07:59 > 0:08:01Of all the health boards we had,
0:08:01 > 0:08:05they are all still being paid and are still getting their pensions.
0:08:05 > 0:08:09If we got rid of the people without jobs,
0:08:09 > 0:08:11there would be enough money left.
0:08:11 > 0:08:14That point has been raised before. Owain?
0:08:14 > 0:08:18It's terrible that people are being treated in the back of an ambulance.
0:08:18 > 0:08:20We have to consider in these times that people
0:08:20 > 0:08:22get the treatment they need.
0:08:22 > 0:08:27We have to consider that Llanelli is a place...
0:08:27 > 0:08:30It is the second biggest town in Carmarthenshire.
0:08:30 > 0:08:33We need these services in Llanelli.
0:08:33 > 0:08:37If what Nia says is true,
0:08:37 > 0:08:39Maybe at this point I can jump in.
0:08:39 > 0:08:41I knew this topic was going to be raised
0:08:41 > 0:08:44and we have had a statement from the Welsh Government
0:08:44 > 0:08:46which should interest the audience.
0:08:46 > 0:08:49This is what the Welsh Government has said today.
0:08:49 > 0:08:53The Health Minister has made it clear that the Prince Philip Hospital
0:08:53 > 0:08:56emergency unit will be led clinically by doctors,
0:08:56 > 0:08:59along with nurses who specialise in the field.
0:08:59 > 0:09:03That's the statement by the Welsh Government.
0:09:03 > 0:09:08You referred to the Llanelli Star, which also has an article
0:09:08 > 0:09:11with Mark Drakeford, the Health Minister
0:09:11 > 0:09:14and he says the same in that article.
0:09:14 > 0:09:17But he was asked what exactly does it mean with regard to having doctors
0:09:17 > 0:09:19in the hospital.
0:09:19 > 0:09:24The answer was it means a GP on the site.
0:09:26 > 0:09:31Is that the same as having the kind of doctors you would expect?
0:09:31 > 0:09:35It's something for you to think about while I go back to Owain.
0:09:35 > 0:09:37I think that is an important argument.
0:09:37 > 0:09:40The only thing we haven't considered is,
0:09:40 > 0:09:42we have to ensure that nurses have the ability.
0:09:42 > 0:09:45It's different these days to how it was before.
0:09:45 > 0:09:49Every nurse has a degree these days.
0:09:49 > 0:09:52The standard and technology has improved.
0:09:52 > 0:09:55But I don't think that will answer the problem we have in Llanelli.
0:09:55 > 0:09:57As Angharad Mair said,
0:09:57 > 0:10:00the number of people using the site is a huge number.
0:10:00 > 0:10:03They need the treatment they deserve.
0:10:03 > 0:10:07I don't think people are being treated in the back of an ambulance
0:10:07 > 0:10:10is something we should accept.
0:10:10 > 0:10:13It is not a unique situation in Llanelli.
0:10:13 > 0:10:15It happens in Morriston and it happens in North Wales.
0:10:15 > 0:10:18But the question is how to solve the problem?
0:10:18 > 0:10:22We all have a duty to ensure that we consider what to do.
0:10:22 > 0:10:24Do we go to A&E?
0:10:24 > 0:10:27Or do we go to the GP?
0:10:27 > 0:10:30Sometimes we are too ready to go to A&E?
0:10:30 > 0:10:33Yes, we have to consider what type of treatment we require.
0:10:33 > 0:10:35The panel come back in a moment.
0:10:35 > 0:10:37Let's go to the audience.
0:10:37 > 0:10:40As a secretary of the friends of the hospital I can say this,
0:10:40 > 0:10:44it is not acceptable that they are treated in the ambulance.
0:10:44 > 0:10:49But they are safer because the paramedic is looking after them
0:10:49 > 0:10:51in the ambulance.
0:10:51 > 0:10:53If they went into the hospital,
0:10:53 > 0:10:56they would have a few minutes without attention.
0:10:56 > 0:11:00They are safer in the ambulance before they go into the hospital.
0:11:00 > 0:11:02Yes, come in on that.
0:11:04 > 0:11:09The point is the ambulance crews do a very difficult job
0:11:09 > 0:11:12under difficult circumstances and they should be praised.
0:11:12 > 0:11:15One of the factors that affects the problem,
0:11:15 > 0:11:18one of them the lack of beds in hospitals.
0:11:18 > 0:11:22They've closed many beds in Welsh hospitals over the last few years.
0:11:22 > 0:11:24That is adding to the crisis.
0:11:24 > 0:11:27But nobody accepts there is a crisis.
0:11:27 > 0:11:29The other thing is care in the community.
0:11:29 > 0:11:32It is a good idea but every good idea
0:11:32 > 0:11:35needs to financed fairly in order for it to be successful.
0:11:35 > 0:11:37Where is the money?
0:11:37 > 0:11:41The Government has to consider the problems seriously.
0:11:41 > 0:11:43Huw Richards in the back.
0:11:45 > 0:11:49It is a huge problem throughout Wales.
0:11:49 > 0:11:52The fact is money is the bottom line.
0:11:52 > 0:11:55They are talking about more doctors for this area,
0:11:55 > 0:11:58but they won't come to West Wales.
0:11:58 > 0:12:00That is a problem.
0:12:00 > 0:12:04If we can't attract them, it doesn't matter how much you'll pay them
0:12:04 > 0:12:07that continues to be a problem.
0:12:07 > 0:12:10Would you like GP surgeries to open for longer?
0:12:10 > 0:12:11Maybe that would solve the problem.
0:12:11 > 0:12:16Maybe you could go to the surgery later at night or on the weekend.
0:12:18 > 0:12:19That is a problem.
0:12:19 > 0:12:23Getting an appointment with a GP is a problem to start with.
0:12:23 > 0:12:26You have to prepare for a fortnight before you get ill.
0:12:28 > 0:12:29That is often the situation.
0:12:31 > 0:12:33How about you in the front row? Let's move the microphone down.
0:12:33 > 0:12:37The fact is we are living longer.
0:12:38 > 0:12:41The population is getting older.
0:12:41 > 0:12:44That is a good thing,
0:12:44 > 0:12:47but because we are living older, there is more illness.
0:12:47 > 0:12:49There is not enough room in the hospitals.
0:12:49 > 0:12:51We need more hospitals, more beds,
0:12:51 > 0:12:56more money and the politicians are playing with the situation.
0:12:56 > 0:13:01Why don't they get hold of the problem and increase income tax?
0:13:01 > 0:13:06Or get the millions which are spent on the lottery
0:13:06 > 0:13:09and have some kind of special lottery
0:13:09 > 0:13:11and the money goes to the NHS?
0:13:11 > 0:13:14But people aren't willing to pay more income tax?
0:13:14 > 0:13:16How much money is spent on the lottery?
0:13:16 > 0:13:18They pay that, no problem.
0:13:18 > 0:13:20Sian Evans.
0:13:20 > 0:13:24There is a problem in Wales and in Britain as a whole.
0:13:24 > 0:13:27But there are a lot of beds in the hospitals.
0:13:27 > 0:13:32I visited a hospital recently and there were many beds
0:13:32 > 0:13:35but they were not being used because there was no staff
0:13:35 > 0:13:38to look after the patients.
0:13:38 > 0:13:41So maybe there are beds, but not enough staff.
0:13:41 > 0:13:45So it isn't bed-blocking but not enough staff, no nurses.
0:13:45 > 0:13:49- Not enough nurses.- Yes?
0:13:49 > 0:13:52One other thing is the Labour Party hasn't been clear enough
0:13:52 > 0:13:54in what their policy is.
0:13:54 > 0:13:57Mark Drakeford said in September that it would a nurse-led
0:13:57 > 0:14:00system, not doctors.
0:14:00 > 0:14:02Now he's saying something different,
0:14:02 > 0:14:06maybe as a result of the campaign in Llanelli.
0:14:06 > 0:14:09But he has been very clear in his statement.
0:14:09 > 0:14:11But it's contrary to what he said three months ago.
0:14:11 > 0:14:13Yes, you in the back row.
0:14:14 > 0:14:16People are trying to sort this out
0:14:16 > 0:14:19but you need to look at what's happening.
0:14:19 > 0:14:23The health board is quite happy to see the ambulances outside
0:14:23 > 0:14:27A&E or outside the hospital where the people are safe.
0:14:27 > 0:14:32They haven't given us the service we need so they save money.
0:14:32 > 0:14:35They should spend more money on what's inside the hospital
0:14:35 > 0:14:39and somebody should say every 20 minutes the ambulance
0:14:39 > 0:14:42is outside the hospital the health board should be fined.
0:14:42 > 0:14:45They'd soon find the money and make changes.
0:14:45 > 0:14:49If nobody does anything it will be like this forever.
0:14:49 > 0:14:53Are we patients too quick to call an ambulance?
0:14:53 > 0:14:55If there's something wrong, ambulance.
0:14:55 > 0:14:58If you need an ambulance, you need an ambulance,
0:14:58 > 0:15:02but it doesn't need to be outside the hospital for an hour or two
0:15:02 > 0:15:03or three.
0:15:03 > 0:15:07If the health board had to pay the Ambulance Service for that time,
0:15:07 > 0:15:10they would change straightaway and they wouldn't spend the money.
0:15:10 > 0:15:12But while they're not paying,
0:15:12 > 0:15:15they don't care that the Ambulance Service is spending money.
0:15:15 > 0:15:19Let's go back to the panel.
0:15:19 > 0:15:24Nia, was it a mistake to give this new contract to GPs?
0:15:24 > 0:15:29That's changed. Rather than being available, as they were before,
0:15:29 > 0:15:34it's difficult to get hold of them and people go to emergency units.
0:15:34 > 0:15:38To be fair to people who have called an ambulance,
0:15:38 > 0:15:43the Service says that the majority of people who go to hospital
0:15:43 > 0:15:45in an ambulance need it.
0:15:45 > 0:15:50The thing is, we're getting older, as the gentleman said.
0:15:50 > 0:15:54It is very important that we reflect the fact
0:15:54 > 0:15:58that there is more demand for the service.
0:15:58 > 0:16:02In West Wales we need to recruit better,
0:16:02 > 0:16:08not only for the hospital but for the GP service.
0:16:08 > 0:16:11It's difficult to find them, as Huw said.
0:16:11 > 0:16:14It is true of all our rural areas.
0:16:14 > 0:16:18It is difficult to get people to come to this area
0:16:18 > 0:16:21because of uncertainty over their jobs.
0:16:21 > 0:16:23That's the problem.
0:16:23 > 0:16:28If the money was available and the hospital invested in the future,
0:16:28 > 0:16:31more and more people would get the best treatment.
0:16:31 > 0:16:36Llanelli is a hospital with several areas of expertise.
0:16:36 > 0:16:38Breast cancer, I think.
0:16:38 > 0:16:42The orthopaedic surgery is excellent.
0:16:42 > 0:16:44We don't say enough about that.
0:16:44 > 0:16:47Should we accept that every hospital
0:16:47 > 0:16:49- is not going to specialise in every field?- They're not.
0:16:49 > 0:16:52- Angharad?- That is true.
0:16:52 > 0:16:55I have nothing against centralising services
0:16:55 > 0:16:57like intensive care for children
0:16:57 > 0:17:00or heart disease, cancer and so on.
0:17:00 > 0:17:03But, coming back to your point, which is important,
0:17:03 > 0:17:09I think we should prioritise young people who want to be doctors.
0:17:09 > 0:17:12They should go to the University Hospital in Cardiff.
0:17:12 > 0:17:15At the moment they are competing against everybody else in Britain.
0:17:15 > 0:17:19They should be encouraged, especially if they speak Welsh,
0:17:19 > 0:17:21to come back to these areas as doctors.
0:17:21 > 0:17:23The last word from you, Jonathan.
0:17:23 > 0:17:27The health boards and the Labour government
0:17:27 > 0:17:29need to be honest with people.
0:17:29 > 0:17:32They've tried to write off the problems in West Wales
0:17:32 > 0:17:34for clinical reasons.
0:17:34 > 0:17:39But we all know that it all comes down to financial problems.
0:17:39 > 0:17:42That's why we've put more money in.
0:17:42 > 0:17:46That's why people have lost faith in the Labour government.
0:17:46 > 0:17:48You can respond, Nia.
0:17:48 > 0:17:53That is why the Welsh government has decided to give the NHS more money.
0:17:53 > 0:17:56There is a shortage and that's a problem.
0:17:56 > 0:18:00- That's why they've done that. - That is the end of our first topic.
0:18:00 > 0:18:05Let's have the second question from Alwyn Jones.
0:18:05 > 0:18:11Is there any way of justifying an 11% pay rise for MPs
0:18:11 > 0:18:15at a time of severe financial cuts?
0:18:15 > 0:18:17Alwyn sounds doubtful.
0:18:17 > 0:18:21Is there any way of justifying an 11% pay rise for MPs
0:18:21 > 0:18:24at a time of severe financial cuts?
0:18:24 > 0:18:27I'll come to the MPs in a moment. Owain, I'll start with you.
0:18:27 > 0:18:30We have to make sure that we get the best people.
0:18:30 > 0:18:36I think the pay rise would be fair at another point in time.
0:18:36 > 0:18:40It is the timing that is the problem.
0:18:40 > 0:18:45We have seen scandals in the past
0:18:45 > 0:18:47to do with expenses.
0:18:47 > 0:18:53I think re-setting the pay and the expenses is a good idea.
0:18:53 > 0:18:57But is now the time to do this?
0:18:57 > 0:19:00- And is 11%...- But when is it convenient to do it?
0:19:00 > 0:19:03It's not.
0:19:03 > 0:19:07The problem we have at the moment is the cuts in the public sector,
0:19:07 > 0:19:11people are being made redundant and it's not the right time
0:19:11 > 0:19:14to have this kind of pay rise at the moment.
0:19:14 > 0:19:16APPLAUSE
0:19:16 > 0:19:19You may applaud.
0:19:19 > 0:19:23- But in principle you would be willing to pay MPs £74,000 a year?- Yes.
0:19:23 > 0:19:27I think it's fair for the responsibilities they have
0:19:27 > 0:19:30and the hours they have to work.
0:19:30 > 0:19:35They have to do more work and stop arguing about nothing at times
0:19:35 > 0:19:39but many in the business industry say that.
0:19:39 > 0:19:41Angharad, do they deserve £74,000?
0:19:41 > 0:19:47I have to admit, in this difficult time, with the economic situation
0:19:47 > 0:19:53as it is, it would be terrible if the MPs accepted a pay rise.
0:19:53 > 0:19:57And yet I do have sympathy for MPs.
0:19:57 > 0:20:01If you look at the county council,
0:20:01 > 0:20:05one person earns over £200,000 year.
0:20:05 > 0:20:09Four earn over £130,000 a year.
0:20:09 > 0:20:1420 people on Carmarthenshire Council earn over £80,000.
0:20:14 > 0:20:18That's 25 people on your county council - you pay their salaries
0:20:18 > 0:20:22and their pensions - here in Carmarthenshire,
0:20:22 > 0:20:26in one of the most deprived areas,
0:20:26 > 0:20:31and our officials on the county council
0:20:31 > 0:20:33are among the highest paid in Wales.
0:20:33 > 0:20:37When you look at the whole situation,
0:20:37 > 0:20:43and an independent panel has looked at this pay rise for MPs,
0:20:43 > 0:20:47the same independent panel should come to Wales to change things,
0:20:47 > 0:20:49so that we have more consistency.
0:20:49 > 0:20:51APPLAUSE
0:20:53 > 0:20:58And if there's one thing that makes me angry,
0:20:58 > 0:21:03it's hearing millionaires like Cameron and Clegg and Miliband
0:21:03 > 0:21:09and Osborne and Hunt, saying some MPs should not have a pay rise.
0:21:09 > 0:21:14I think they should reject their entire salaries as MPs
0:21:14 > 0:21:19in order to encourage less fortunate people to go into politics
0:21:19 > 0:21:23- to represent us.- So you think they deserve but not now?
0:21:23 > 0:21:27The timing is terrible for them to have a pay rise now.
0:21:27 > 0:21:29They should not have it now.
0:21:29 > 0:21:33But when you compare it to other people,
0:21:33 > 0:21:36you have to look at it fairly.
0:21:36 > 0:21:41Let's hear from the audience. Would you be in favour of the pay rise?
0:21:41 > 0:21:44Alwyn, you asked the question. Let's get the microphone to you.
0:21:44 > 0:21:47No, I would not accept it.
0:21:47 > 0:21:52When you consider the situation in the country and all the poverty,
0:21:52 > 0:21:54I am against it.
0:21:54 > 0:21:57Erm, Haydn... Yes, you first.
0:21:57 > 0:22:00Even talking about 11%...
0:22:00 > 0:22:051% now and 9% in 2015, it's politically insane.
0:22:05 > 0:22:10The leaders of the three main parties in London have said
0:22:10 > 0:22:13they should not accept it and I think they're playing games.
0:22:13 > 0:22:16They'd be happy to accept it.
0:22:16 > 0:22:18What they should do is...
0:22:18 > 0:22:23They say this is an independent body and we can't do anything about it.
0:22:23 > 0:22:26Then you should agree to put all the money back
0:22:26 > 0:22:29and we should have a list of those who give it back
0:22:29 > 0:22:32and those who don't.
0:22:32 > 0:22:37At a different time, I would be with Owain and Angharad.
0:22:37 > 0:22:42- But my question has been, when is this ideal time?- Not now.
0:22:42 > 0:22:43Right.
0:22:43 > 0:22:45One thing, Dewi.
0:22:45 > 0:22:50All these figures that are thrown around, thousands of pounds worth,
0:22:50 > 0:22:52it's all public money.
0:22:53 > 0:22:56Some interesting figures from Angharad.
0:22:56 > 0:22:59Yes, before I go to pupils from Ysgol Y Strade.
0:22:59 > 0:23:01I would like to see them getting
0:23:01 > 0:23:05the same pay rise as people in the public sector.
0:23:05 > 0:23:08Everybody should have the same pay rise.
0:23:08 > 0:23:11If someone works for the county council,
0:23:11 > 0:23:14working on the roads or something,
0:23:14 > 0:23:18I am in favour of giving everyone the same pay rise.
0:23:18 > 0:23:21Steffan, would you be in favour of giving them more money?
0:23:21 > 0:23:25No, I would be against giving MPs more money.
0:23:25 > 0:23:31I think we... as the Education Minister said a few years ago,
0:23:31 > 0:23:36they should be paid according to their performance.
0:23:36 > 0:23:39If they do well in their constituency, they can...
0:23:39 > 0:23:42Who decides whether they've do well not?
0:23:42 > 0:23:45Well, who decides whether teachers do well?
0:23:45 > 0:23:47And your friend.
0:23:47 > 0:23:52I think the right time to do it is when the economy is growing.
0:23:52 > 0:23:56You never know when things are going to happen
0:23:56 > 0:24:00and inflation goes up and everybody suffers.
0:24:00 > 0:24:06So the time to do it is when there is growth in the economy.
0:24:06 > 0:24:07Let's go along the line.
0:24:07 > 0:24:13Compared to what people in the public sector are earning,
0:24:13 > 0:24:19I don't think it's unfair but the timing is not the best.
0:24:19 > 0:24:24- We agree on that. Are you from Y Strade as well?- Yes.
0:24:24 > 0:24:25Excellent.
0:24:25 > 0:24:28I have a question for Mrs Griffith.
0:24:28 > 0:24:33Last year, you had the highest figures
0:24:33 > 0:24:37in terms of expenses claims among MPs in Wales,
0:24:37 > 0:24:41so what would you suggest doing with the pay rise?
0:24:41 > 0:24:44Nia Griffith will answer that in a minute.
0:24:44 > 0:24:47Where are the people of Maes y Gwendraeth?
0:24:47 > 0:24:50Come on, girls. I don't want to ignore your school.
0:24:50 > 0:24:53- Yes, one of you.- I disagree.
0:24:53 > 0:24:57I don't think they should get a pay rise either.
0:24:57 > 0:25:01They should be paid according to their performance.
0:25:01 > 0:25:03Excellent.
0:25:03 > 0:25:06- And you?- I feel the same.
0:25:06 > 0:25:12It's unfair for them to have a pay rise when normal people don't.
0:25:12 > 0:25:15I agree with what was said in the front.
0:25:15 > 0:25:19If they have it, everyone should have it.
0:25:19 > 0:25:21And one more here.
0:25:21 > 0:25:25Who is going to judge the politicians?
0:25:25 > 0:25:29They're not football players. They don't go on performance.
0:25:29 > 0:25:33They are there to do a job and represent 90,000 people.
0:25:33 > 0:25:39It's a difficult job. Football players earn a lot more than them.
0:25:39 > 0:25:44Ms Griffith and Mr Edwards are not football players.
0:25:44 > 0:25:49I suppose we the electorate judge them in the end.
0:25:49 > 0:25:54But this independent panel has decided this.
0:25:54 > 0:25:56Hayward Rees.
0:25:56 > 0:25:58We should remember the comparison
0:25:58 > 0:26:03between what GPs earn,
0:26:03 > 0:26:07which is much higher...
0:26:08 > 0:26:11..than people in the House of Commons.
0:26:11 > 0:26:17And, of course, GPs are refusing to work at night and on the weekend.
0:26:17 > 0:26:24I'm not an activist but these people do work on weekends.
0:26:24 > 0:26:26They are here tonight.
0:26:26 > 0:26:29You wouldn't have a GP here tonight.
0:26:29 > 0:26:33Let's have one more voice before I go back to the panel.
0:26:33 > 0:26:37The problem is that so many people,
0:26:37 > 0:26:42especially in the public sector, are working and living in poverty.
0:26:42 > 0:26:47The government needs to make sure that everybody is paid fairly
0:26:47 > 0:26:52and then there wouldn't be a problem if MPs get a pay rise.
0:26:52 > 0:26:56Nia, there was a specific question about your expenses.
0:26:56 > 0:26:59You can respond to that as well.
0:26:59 > 0:27:02I think people are in favour of you having more money
0:27:02 > 0:27:05but not at the moment.
0:27:05 > 0:27:09When we ask other people to freeze their wages,
0:27:09 > 0:27:12it's impossible for us to accept something like this.
0:27:12 > 0:27:15It's immoral.
0:27:15 > 0:27:17What we need to do
0:27:17 > 0:27:22is to work out what is needed for the job.
0:27:22 > 0:27:28What's worrying is, not older people like me or the young people,
0:27:28 > 0:27:31but people in the middle who have a family,
0:27:31 > 0:27:37we have to reflect the fact that it's difficult
0:27:37 > 0:27:41to be in two places and we need to make sure...
0:27:41 > 0:27:43If you had a higher salary...
0:27:43 > 0:27:47..we have a series of people who come from all backgrounds.
0:27:47 > 0:27:50People from all income brackets.
0:27:50 > 0:27:54Not just people who are very rich.
0:27:54 > 0:27:57If you had a higher salary,
0:27:57 > 0:28:02maybe you would not be accused of claiming too many expenses.
0:28:02 > 0:28:06If it was higher, we wouldn't have had the expenses scandal.
0:28:06 > 0:28:09It would be more private
0:28:09 > 0:28:15and fewer public bodies would look at what you were doing
0:28:15 > 0:28:18if the salaries were higher.
0:28:18 > 0:28:23But I think the public have a right to know
0:28:23 > 0:28:28that you are using the money well and you're not wasting money.
0:28:28 > 0:28:32It is important that you are responsible.
0:28:32 > 0:28:34Jonathan?
0:28:34 > 0:28:39I have a similar view. We live at a time of financial cuts,
0:28:39 > 0:28:45where wages have been frozen in the public sector or cut in real terms.
0:28:45 > 0:28:49Because the public sector is suffering, it is impossible
0:28:49 > 0:28:52for us as politicians, who are part of the public sector...
0:28:52 > 0:28:56But this independent panel has decided that this salary
0:28:56 > 0:28:58is not good enough.
0:28:58 > 0:29:00We might get better Members.
0:29:00 > 0:29:06They spent £70,000 on the consultation on this issue
0:29:06 > 0:29:11and 80% of people said politicians did not deserve more pay.
0:29:11 > 0:29:14I'm not sure how IPSA came up with this result.
0:29:14 > 0:29:16The unfortunate thing is,
0:29:16 > 0:29:20this will come in after the next Westminster election
0:29:20 > 0:29:23and this will now be an electoral issue.
0:29:23 > 0:29:27We should be talking about more important things.
0:29:27 > 0:29:32- I think people have lost faith in IPSA.- What about politicians?
0:29:32 > 0:29:36They've lost faith with this issue, which wasn't decided by MPs.
0:29:36 > 0:29:41We need to change the law so that the salaries of MPs
0:29:41 > 0:29:45is linked to the average across the public sector.
0:29:45 > 0:29:50I supported a motion to that end in Parliament this week.
0:29:50 > 0:29:53Before I go to the break, you both think you earn a fair salary?
0:29:53 > 0:29:56- I'm happy with what we get.- Yes.
0:29:56 > 0:29:57That's a clear answer.
0:29:57 > 0:30:00Thank you for your contributions.
0:30:00 > 0:30:03We will now take a short break. Join us again in two minutes.
0:30:19 > 0:30:23Welcome back. We are in Llanelli for this week's programme.
0:30:23 > 0:30:26Let's go to our third question.
0:30:26 > 0:30:30Esther, what's your question?
0:30:30 > 0:30:33A year has passed since the Census results showed
0:30:33 > 0:30:37that the Welsh language has lost ground in Carmarthenshire.
0:30:37 > 0:30:40Is enough being done to respond to the crisis?
0:30:40 > 0:30:43A year has passed since the Census results showed
0:30:43 > 0:30:46that the Welsh language has lost ground in Carmarthenshire.
0:30:46 > 0:30:50Is enough being done to respond to the crisis?
0:30:50 > 0:30:52A years since those unfavourable results.
0:30:52 > 0:30:55Angharad, how would you answer?
0:30:55 > 0:30:57Certainly not.
0:30:57 > 0:31:00But worse than that, plenty is being done to make sure that
0:31:00 > 0:31:03the Welsh language does not grow in Carmarthenshire.
0:31:03 > 0:31:07In education, there are more English-medium primary schools
0:31:07 > 0:31:10in the county now.
0:31:10 > 0:31:14Some of the old bilingual primary schools
0:31:14 > 0:31:18are now English-medium schools.
0:31:18 > 0:31:21That'll make a huge difference.
0:31:21 > 0:31:25We need to ensure that every child leaving primary school
0:31:25 > 0:31:29in the county is fluent in the Welsh language.
0:31:29 > 0:31:32But to implement that you need the support of parents.
0:31:32 > 0:31:36Is that why this is happening? The support's not there.
0:31:36 > 0:31:38I disagree.
0:31:38 > 0:31:43It should be a policy within the county council and the Assembly.
0:31:43 > 0:31:45- Compulsory?- Compulsory.
0:31:45 > 0:31:50Being bilingual is more beneficial than speaking one language.
0:31:50 > 0:31:52We know that.
0:31:52 > 0:31:55Then you have the housing policy.
0:31:55 > 0:31:59If you look at schemes like Penybanc near Ammanford,
0:31:59 > 0:32:03hundreds of new houses are being built but there are no new jobs.
0:32:03 > 0:32:06That means more people will move into the area to buy homes
0:32:06 > 0:32:10and because of the education system, if they have children,
0:32:10 > 0:32:14they will send them to English-medium primary schools
0:32:14 > 0:32:17rather than accepting that if they move to Ammanford
0:32:17 > 0:32:20that the Welsh language is used in schools.
0:32:20 > 0:32:24And, thirdly, there has been significant growth
0:32:24 > 0:32:27in Welsh-medium education in the south-east.
0:32:27 > 0:32:31In Cardiff, any child can have all kinds of
0:32:31 > 0:32:35extracurricular opportunities through the medium of Welsh.
0:32:35 > 0:32:40It could be tennis, football, rugby, swimming and so on.
0:32:40 > 0:32:42But the facilities are there.
0:32:42 > 0:32:46The facilities are here but the county council needs to make sure
0:32:46 > 0:32:50the lessons are provided. Without a strategy it's not going to happen.
0:32:50 > 0:32:53The teachers need resources too.
0:32:53 > 0:32:58The budget for Welsh language initiatives has also been cut.
0:32:58 > 0:33:02While you have a Labour and Independent council
0:33:02 > 0:33:08without a strategy to ensure that the Welsh language grows
0:33:08 > 0:33:13there is no hope of improving the situation.
0:33:13 > 0:33:17In that case, the answer is to elect councillors.
0:33:17 > 0:33:21- Owain?- I'm disappointed with the figures.
0:33:21 > 0:33:26I was surprised that so few children went through Welsh-medium education.
0:33:26 > 0:33:30From what I've seen, I thought more children were getting opportunities
0:33:30 > 0:33:32in Welsh-language schools.
0:33:32 > 0:33:36They have closed schools in areas where the numbers were very low
0:33:36 > 0:33:39and centralised them in bigger schools.
0:33:39 > 0:33:42I must admit that the figures have disappointed me.
0:33:42 > 0:33:46- I hope...- What do you think needs to be done?
0:33:46 > 0:33:49Do you agree that more force is needed?
0:33:49 > 0:33:52I don't agree with forcing people to do anything
0:33:52 > 0:33:55but I think people should be given the confidence
0:33:55 > 0:33:58to be educated through the medium of Welsh.
0:33:58 > 0:34:01We need the facilities to do business in Welsh.
0:34:01 > 0:34:05And I think we all have a duty to use the Welsh language more often.
0:34:05 > 0:34:10I talk to my colleagues in business in English rather than Welsh.
0:34:10 > 0:34:14I don't use it as often as I should.
0:34:14 > 0:34:17- Do you blame yourself? - Yes. We have a duty.
0:34:17 > 0:34:20But in the field of engineering, some of the technical terms
0:34:20 > 0:34:24are not as well-known as the English words.
0:34:24 > 0:34:29If three or four of us are talking and one doesn't speak Welsh,
0:34:29 > 0:34:32it becomes a habit of speaking in English every time.
0:34:32 > 0:34:36I think we need to make it easier for people to use the language.
0:34:36 > 0:34:42I agree that we need more young people to use the language.
0:34:42 > 0:34:46I remember children who were in school with me
0:34:46 > 0:34:49who have left the country and lost their language
0:34:49 > 0:34:52and when they come back they are disappointed they have lost it.
0:34:52 > 0:34:55It's fashionable in some areas
0:34:55 > 0:34:58for children with English-speaking parents.
0:34:58 > 0:35:02If you look at the statistics, you can see that the number of
0:35:02 > 0:35:07young people speaking Welsh is going up.
0:35:07 > 0:35:12Welsh-language schools are very popular in this area.
0:35:12 > 0:35:16They use the language when they are at school.
0:35:16 > 0:35:19The problem is how to promote the language
0:35:19 > 0:35:21after people leave school.
0:35:21 > 0:35:25- What's important...- It's seen as the language of the classroom.
0:35:25 > 0:35:29What's important to young people? Things like texting.
0:35:29 > 0:35:32Predictive text turns everything into English
0:35:32 > 0:35:35and you give up trying to do it in Welsh.
0:35:35 > 0:35:38- You need to... - Turn off the predictive text.
0:35:38 > 0:35:42We need a Welsh language predictive text.
0:35:42 > 0:35:45We need more extracurricular activities...
0:35:45 > 0:35:48What about Angharad's points about the county council...
0:35:48 > 0:35:50..for children to take part in.
0:35:50 > 0:35:53What about Angharad's points about the county council
0:35:53 > 0:35:56not offering enough leadership?
0:35:56 > 0:36:02The county council has helped a lot of Welsh-medium schools to grow
0:36:02 > 0:36:06and that's important, but you can't force people.
0:36:06 > 0:36:08The language is something very personal.
0:36:08 > 0:36:12You need opportunities in different environments,
0:36:12 > 0:36:15because you use different languages.
0:36:15 > 0:36:18One in work and one at home, perhaps.
0:36:18 > 0:36:23Two panellists reject your idea of making it compulsory, Angharad.
0:36:23 > 0:36:25Promote, not force.
0:36:25 > 0:36:27Another thing,
0:36:27 > 0:36:31a lot of people who move into the county from areas like Swansea,
0:36:31 > 0:36:36they do it in order to get more Welsh and to be in Welsh areas
0:36:36 > 0:36:39and they use the Welsh schools.
0:36:39 > 0:36:41They raise their children speaking Welsh.
0:36:41 > 0:36:45But you're talking as if the language is growing in this area
0:36:45 > 0:36:49when the statistics show that the language
0:36:49 > 0:36:53is not growing in this area.
0:36:53 > 0:36:57If we don't do something specific about it,
0:36:57 > 0:37:02it will be a dead language in areas
0:37:02 > 0:37:05where the large majority of people used to speak it.
0:37:05 > 0:37:08In terms of force, it can work.
0:37:08 > 0:37:12In Tinopolis, Welsh is the only language of the workplace.
0:37:12 > 0:37:16- From time to time... - Is it a set policy?- Yes.
0:37:16 > 0:37:20From time to time, someone comes in who can't speak Welsh,
0:37:20 > 0:37:22they have lessons.
0:37:22 > 0:37:26They are fluent almost immediately because they're surrounded by...
0:37:26 > 0:37:29Thank you, Angharad. I see you're desperate to come in, Jonathan.
0:37:29 > 0:37:34Let's be honest, the Census figures were disastrous in Carmarthenshire.
0:37:34 > 0:37:37- It was a 7% drop...- Nia's throwing a different light on it.
0:37:37 > 0:37:41Let me talk. You've had your say, with respect.
0:37:41 > 0:37:44A 7% drop in Carmarthenshire
0:37:44 > 0:37:48and Welsh speakers are in the minority for the first time.
0:37:48 > 0:37:52It's a psychological blow. In Ammanford, a 12% drop.
0:37:52 > 0:37:55The first thing the Labour and Independent county council did
0:37:55 > 0:37:58was to support a new housing estate in Penybanc,
0:37:58 > 0:38:03one of the only Welsh-speaking industrial towns we have left,
0:38:03 > 0:38:08300 houses - a hundred more than we saw in the development scheme.
0:38:08 > 0:38:12More houses will be built in Carmarthenshire over the next decade
0:38:12 > 0:38:15under Labour plans than in Cardiff and Swansea put together.
0:38:15 > 0:38:19The Labour and Independent county councillors
0:38:19 > 0:38:23refused to have any kind of language impact assessment
0:38:23 > 0:38:27on the scheme, which will destroy Penybanc as a Welsh-speaking town,
0:38:27 > 0:38:31and it's a disgrace.
0:38:31 > 0:38:33APPLAUSE
0:38:37 > 0:38:40You can answer that, Nia, before I go to the audience.
0:38:40 > 0:38:43The two reasons why the statistics...
0:38:43 > 0:38:45What about the housing development?
0:38:45 > 0:38:47One minute.
0:38:47 > 0:38:50I've said that the number of young people is growing.
0:38:50 > 0:38:54We have to remember that the people who were born in the 1920s
0:38:54 > 0:38:58are dying and people of my age, who were not given the chance
0:38:58 > 0:39:03to go to a Welsh-medium school...
0:39:03 > 0:39:05there are a lot of them.
0:39:05 > 0:39:08The baby-boomers and so on.
0:39:08 > 0:39:11The fact is, with the young people, things are improving.
0:39:11 > 0:39:14With houses, it depends on the place.
0:39:14 > 0:39:17I've opposed building a lot of houses
0:39:17 > 0:39:19where it's inappropriate to do so.
0:39:19 > 0:39:24I don't agree that the council has sat back and done nothing.
0:39:24 > 0:39:29It has created several Welsh streams in schools.
0:39:29 > 0:39:33A lot of schools are offering both languages.
0:39:33 > 0:39:36It's not fair on the county.
0:39:36 > 0:39:40We need leadership from the council.
0:39:40 > 0:39:43A working party has been set up under Kevin Campbell.
0:39:43 > 0:39:46I can't think of anyone better.
0:39:46 > 0:39:50The county council needs to say it is adopting the recommendations.
0:39:50 > 0:39:54If it doesn't, we know where Labour stand on the Welsh language.
0:39:54 > 0:39:56Let's go to the audience.
0:39:56 > 0:39:58Over here.
0:39:58 > 0:40:02I would like to agree with Angharad Mair's point.
0:40:02 > 0:40:05There's a feeling in Wales that we have to apologise
0:40:05 > 0:40:07for using our language.
0:40:07 > 0:40:10It should be a subject that you have to study in school.
0:40:10 > 0:40:13It has educational benefits.
0:40:13 > 0:40:17Everyone knows that being bilingual helps your development.
0:40:17 > 0:40:21There is a lot of work to do with regard to training more teachers.
0:40:21 > 0:40:22That is the problem.
0:40:22 > 0:40:25There is not enough people available to do the work.
0:40:25 > 0:40:29Having said that, I know a lot of teachers
0:40:29 > 0:40:33who can speak Welsh, but they can't get any jobs in Welsh schools
0:40:33 > 0:40:36and are working in English schools.
0:40:36 > 0:40:42I know a lot of schools, for example in Llanelli, have Welsh departments.
0:40:42 > 0:40:46A lot of work is being done in Treorchy in the valleys.
0:40:46 > 0:40:50There are plenty of teachers - the language needs to be given priority.
0:40:50 > 0:40:53Yes?
0:40:53 > 0:40:56With young adults especially,
0:40:56 > 0:41:00they have to take responsibility for the language.
0:41:02 > 0:41:06A lot of young people enjoy going out
0:41:06 > 0:41:10and I think they should have discounts in nightclubs
0:41:10 > 0:41:12for speaking Welsh, to make it cool.
0:41:12 > 0:41:16- Is it cool at the moment? - It is cool to speak Welsh.
0:41:16 > 0:41:22I think parents who live in Wales who speak English
0:41:22 > 0:41:26and don't put their children into Welsh schools
0:41:26 > 0:41:30do it because they can't do the homework with their children.
0:41:30 > 0:41:33Parents like to work with their children on their homework
0:41:33 > 0:41:37but there's no help at home for the children of English-speaking parents
0:41:37 > 0:41:41who put their children in Welsh-medium schools.
0:41:41 > 0:41:43How do we overcome that?
0:41:43 > 0:41:45I don't know.
0:41:45 > 0:41:46Yes?
0:41:46 > 0:41:48I agree with Angharad.
0:41:48 > 0:41:54Confidence is a huge thing with regard to speaking Welsh.
0:41:54 > 0:41:59If you come from an English-speaking family and go to a Welsh school,
0:41:59 > 0:42:03my parents are trying to learn Welsh but they have no confidence,
0:42:03 > 0:42:05and they're very shy.
0:42:05 > 0:42:08That's why confidence is so important.
0:42:08 > 0:42:10Eifion Davies.
0:42:10 > 0:42:14I attended a Christmas Carol concert in the town last Saturday.
0:42:14 > 0:42:17There was a children's choir, a mixed choir,
0:42:17 > 0:42:19a male voice choir and an orchestra.
0:42:19 > 0:42:23We sang carols in English,
0:42:23 > 0:42:28Latin and German, but not Welsh.
0:42:28 > 0:42:33The person presenting the concert, at the end of the concert,
0:42:33 > 0:42:37wished everyone a merry Christmas in English,
0:42:37 > 0:42:39not a word of Welsh.
0:42:39 > 0:42:42But is that the nature of Llanelli these days?
0:42:42 > 0:42:46- I was disappointed. - I have to hear from Esther.
0:42:46 > 0:42:48I don't think forcing people to speak the language
0:42:48 > 0:42:50is the right way forward.
0:42:50 > 0:42:52Coming from a Welsh language school,
0:42:52 > 0:42:55you don't want people to think of the language as a burden.
0:42:55 > 0:42:59- You want them to enjoy speaking it. - There we are.
0:42:59 > 0:43:02What about you, shaking your head? Yes?
0:43:02 > 0:43:06For me, we certainly need to promote the language,
0:43:06 > 0:43:08not see it as a burden, like Esther said.
0:43:08 > 0:43:12I treasure the fact that I can use Welsh
0:43:12 > 0:43:14every day with my parents and friends.
0:43:14 > 0:43:18We need to try and promote it among young people
0:43:18 > 0:43:21and not blame the region's schools.
0:43:21 > 0:43:25A hopeful and encouraging note upon which to close that discussion.
0:43:25 > 0:43:28Thanks. I could have gone on all night but it's time for a break.
0:43:28 > 0:43:30Join us again in Llanelli after the adverts.
0:43:48 > 0:43:53Welcome back to Llanelli for the last Pawb a'i Farn before Christmas.
0:43:53 > 0:43:55Time has flown
0:43:55 > 0:43:58and we've only got time for one more question from Sian Evans.
0:43:58 > 0:44:01Sian, what is your question?
0:44:01 > 0:44:03Following the death of Nelson Mandela,
0:44:03 > 0:44:05what can our politicians learn
0:44:05 > 0:44:09from his willingness to forgive his enemies?
0:44:09 > 0:44:10Thank you, Sian.
0:44:10 > 0:44:14On the subject of the death we heard about last Thursday.
0:44:14 > 0:44:16Following the death of Nelson Mandela,
0:44:16 > 0:44:18what can our politicians learn
0:44:18 > 0:44:22from his willingness to forgive his enemies?
0:44:23 > 0:44:25I'll start with you, Nia, if I may.
0:44:25 > 0:44:29I think one of the most important things we can learn
0:44:29 > 0:44:35from Mandela is how to work with people who have been fierce enemies.
0:44:37 > 0:44:39This is very important in the world today.
0:44:39 > 0:44:42If you think about Northern Ireland, for instance,
0:44:42 > 0:44:45people are working together but tensions remain.
0:44:45 > 0:44:50It's very difficult to work with people who were enemies.
0:44:50 > 0:44:57If you take the poorest countries in the world, war-torn countries
0:44:57 > 0:45:03that are unstable because it isn't possible for them to develop
0:45:03 > 0:45:07without cooperation, without reconciliation.
0:45:08 > 0:45:14It's very important that we, in the world of politics,
0:45:14 > 0:45:19do our very best to help.
0:45:19 > 0:45:23For instance, in the Middle East it's very important to seek
0:45:23 > 0:45:27- reconciliation and this is one of the biggest lessons.- Angharad.
0:45:27 > 0:45:33Well, I think there's a lot that can be done and I must say,
0:45:33 > 0:45:37I've never heard so many insincere comments from certain politicians
0:45:37 > 0:45:40- than I have over the past week. - Praising him, you mean?
0:45:40 > 0:45:44One of Mandela's most famous quotes was,
0:45:44 > 0:45:48"Social equality is the only basis of human happiness."
0:45:48 > 0:45:51It is easy for us to agree with that over here
0:45:51 > 0:45:56when we consider a far-away country like South Africa.
0:45:56 > 0:45:58I almost choked when I heard Russell Goodway,
0:45:58 > 0:46:01former leader of Cardiff Council, on television last week,
0:46:01 > 0:46:03saying that Nelson Mandela had told him how much of an honour it
0:46:03 > 0:46:07was for him, Mandela, to meet Russell Goodway.
0:46:07 > 0:46:10Nobody has done more to ensure that social equality doesn't exist
0:46:10 > 0:46:12for Welsh speaking people in the capital city!
0:46:12 > 0:46:14He was the one to end the Welsh festival Tafwyl
0:46:14 > 0:46:16in the capital this year.
0:46:16 > 0:46:19Thanks to Leighton Andrews for stepping in, there.
0:46:19 > 0:46:22We're talking about a totally different situation, there.
0:46:22 > 0:46:26We're talking about real conflict in South Africa.
0:46:26 > 0:46:29He has made sure that Welsh education in the capital city
0:46:29 > 0:46:34is suffering, refusing to open a new school in the Grangetown area,
0:46:34 > 0:46:36opening an English school
0:46:36 > 0:46:39while Welsh pupils are pushed into one school
0:46:39 > 0:46:42- instead of receiving the proper facilities.- Thanks.
0:46:42 > 0:46:45It's fine to say that but we need to apply Nelson Mandela's words
0:46:45 > 0:46:49- to our local context as well as worldwide.- Owain Davies.
0:46:49 > 0:46:53I think Nelson Mandela has taught us all an important lesson,
0:46:53 > 0:46:56especially the young people in the audience tonight.
0:46:56 > 0:46:59For the man to say, "let bygones be bygones"
0:46:59 > 0:47:04after all he went through, he sets an exceptional example.
0:47:04 > 0:47:07I think politicians have to consider that things move on in the world
0:47:07 > 0:47:10and they must learn to move with them.
0:47:10 > 0:47:13I think that's the greatest lesson.
0:47:13 > 0:47:16It doesn't matter what their policies were yesterday,
0:47:16 > 0:47:19they need to re-evaluate them today to secure a bright future.
0:47:19 > 0:47:23I think that's the most valuable lesson I've learned in business,
0:47:23 > 0:47:26because it's a dog-eat-dog world, as they say in English.
0:47:26 > 0:47:28Sometimes you've got to think back and think,
0:47:28 > 0:47:32"Do I have the right to have this strong opinion of somebody?
0:47:32 > 0:47:34Maybe I should hold back."
0:47:34 > 0:47:39- Does that mean you want Nia and Jonathan to work together more?- Yes.
0:47:39 > 0:47:41Definitely. I think that's very important.
0:47:41 > 0:47:44They need to weigh up their strengths
0:47:44 > 0:47:48and learn from their weaknesses. That's what Nelson...
0:47:48 > 0:47:52But isn't debate at the heart of politics?
0:47:52 > 0:47:55But sometimes you need to move on with a dose of common sense.
0:47:55 > 0:47:59- They're not good at doing that. - We need better opposition in Wales.
0:47:59 > 0:48:01Let's hear from Jonathan.
0:48:01 > 0:48:04The greatest thing about Mandela, in my opinion,
0:48:04 > 0:48:06was his political values.
0:48:06 > 0:48:10I think he was an uncompromising politician.
0:48:10 > 0:48:13he was jailed and he had an opportunity to negotiate with
0:48:13 > 0:48:18the apartheid government but he wasn't prepared to until he and his
0:48:18 > 0:48:21colleagues were freed, which meant he spent much longer in prison.
0:48:21 > 0:48:23He wouldn't compromise and give up on his beliefs.
0:48:23 > 0:48:25I remember, for instance,
0:48:25 > 0:48:28arranging buses to London to protest against the Iraq war
0:48:28 > 0:48:32and Mandela had long stepped down as South African president.
0:48:32 > 0:48:35He was speaking out against Tony Blair
0:48:35 > 0:48:37and George Bush for what they intended to do.
0:48:37 > 0:48:40Can I just end with this?
0:48:40 > 0:48:43Jose Mourinho rarely talks sense but he did this week.
0:48:43 > 0:48:48He said that he doesn't feel worthy to comment on Mandela's greatness.
0:48:48 > 0:48:52I fully support what Angharad said about some of the things
0:48:52 > 0:48:54we've seen this week from some politicians.
0:48:54 > 0:48:58Owain is asking for you to cooperate with not only Nia
0:48:58 > 0:49:00but the Conservatives.
0:49:00 > 0:49:03Why not cooperate with the Conservatives in Cardiff Bay?
0:49:03 > 0:49:06From where I'm sitting, Labour and the Conservatives are just as bad as
0:49:06 > 0:49:09each other and I'll work with anyone who'll move the country forward.
0:49:09 > 0:49:13So Mandela's legacy isn't alive and well as far as you're concerned.
0:49:13 > 0:49:16Let's have a sentence from Sian. A sentence.
0:49:16 > 0:49:18Sometimes... I think it takes more of a man
0:49:18 > 0:49:21to extend a hand instead of reaching for a gun.
0:49:21 > 0:49:24Wonderful, Sian. Thank you very much.
0:49:24 > 0:49:26APPLAUSE
0:49:26 > 0:49:29Wonderful. Thank you to our audience.
0:49:29 > 0:49:32And thanks to the panel. That's all from Llanelli.
0:49:32 > 0:49:36We'll be back in the New Year but Merry Christmas to you all. Goodbye.
0:50:01 > 0:50:03Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd