0:00:26 > 0:00:29On our panel tonight, the clinical psychologist, Dr Mair Edwards.
0:00:29 > 0:00:33The Conservative MP for Aberconwy, Guto Bebb.
0:00:33 > 0:00:36The parliamentary leader of Plaid Cymru, Elfyn Llwyd.
0:00:36 > 0:00:40And one of the Assembly's Liberal Democrats, Aled Roberts.
0:00:40 > 0:00:42Please welcome them.
0:00:42 > 0:00:44APPLAUSE
0:00:55 > 0:00:59Good evening and welcome to another edition of Pawb a'i Farn.
0:00:59 > 0:01:04We are in Bethesda for our first discussion of 2014
0:01:04 > 0:01:06and Plas Ffrancon Leisure Centre.
0:01:07 > 0:01:11Our audience is from the Ogwen Valley.
0:01:11 > 0:01:15But at the beginning of a new year, how familiar will the topics of discussion be?
0:01:15 > 0:01:18We will find out during the next hour.
0:01:18 > 0:01:21We have received many questions and we have selected a handful
0:01:21 > 0:01:23and we'll go straight to the first one.
0:01:23 > 0:01:27The usual addresses are at the bottom of the screen and we will be
0:01:27 > 0:01:32in Pontardawe next Thursday evening and you are welcome to join us.
0:01:32 > 0:01:36But tonight, in Bethesda, our first question comes from Karen Brown.
0:01:36 > 0:01:37Karen, what is your question?
0:01:37 > 0:01:42George Osborne claims the statisticsare starting to suggest that the economy is strengthening.
0:01:42 > 0:01:46But when will we see signs of that in areas like the Ogwen Valley?
0:01:46 > 0:01:48Thank you, Karen, for the first question of the night.
0:01:48 > 0:01:53George Osborne claims the statistics are starting to suggest that the economy is strengthening.
0:01:53 > 0:01:57But when will we see signs of that in areas like the Ogwen Valley?
0:01:57 > 0:02:01Can I come to you, Elfyn Llwyd, for the first answer of the night?
0:02:01 > 0:02:03Yes, of course, Dewi.
0:02:04 > 0:02:08It's true to say that the economy in London
0:02:09 > 0:02:12and the south-east of England is strengthening.
0:02:12 > 0:02:15There is no doubt about that.
0:02:15 > 0:02:18But the same cannot be said outside those areas.
0:02:18 > 0:02:23It just underlines that the economic policies of governments
0:02:23 > 0:02:27have been concentrating on the city and that area.
0:02:27 > 0:02:30It's obvious that the economy is getting better
0:02:30 > 0:02:34but there is not much happening in rural areas, that's for sure.
0:02:35 > 0:02:40What we need to do, I think, is to ensure that we now realise
0:02:40 > 0:02:45that smaller and medium-sized companies are crucial to the Welsh economy.
0:02:45 > 0:02:50We in the cities and in rural areas have to ensure
0:02:50 > 0:02:52an aid package for those companies
0:02:52 > 0:02:58because that is where 90% of wages are paid in Wales.
0:02:58 > 0:03:00So it's very important we do that.
0:03:00 > 0:03:04Things like ensuring there is a Welsh bank
0:03:04 > 0:03:06to lend money to them.
0:03:06 > 0:03:08The banks are still letting them down.
0:03:08 > 0:03:12We have to ensure that business tax is cut.
0:03:12 > 0:03:16One of the interesting things is, and I'm sure I speak for all politicians,
0:03:16 > 0:03:18is that when you talk to businesses,
0:03:18 > 0:03:22they soon tell you that the one thing killing business
0:03:22 > 0:03:26is the business tax and they don't get anything back for it.
0:03:26 > 0:03:30So we have to look at that to ensure that sector grows.
0:03:30 > 0:03:33We also have to think about what's happening in rural areas.
0:03:33 > 0:03:35We know there are problems in the world of agriculture
0:03:35 > 0:03:38and we know that tourism needs a boost.
0:03:38 > 0:03:41There are many other things we could be doing.
0:03:41 > 0:03:44But on the whole, you accept that things are strengthening?
0:03:44 > 0:03:47In some areas.All right. Guto Bebb?
0:03:48 > 0:03:51I'm glad that Elfyn agrees that the economy is improving.
0:03:51 > 0:03:55I would accept that description. It is improving slowly.
0:03:55 > 0:03:58But if you compare the way the British economy is developing
0:03:58 > 0:04:00with France and Germany at the moment,
0:04:00 > 0:04:03the development in Britain is very encouraging.
0:04:03 > 0:04:06Where I would disagree with Elfyn is his claim that we are only
0:04:06 > 0:04:08seeing economic growth in London and the south-east.
0:04:08 > 0:04:12I was in a meeting in Parliament last week with John Cridland from the CBI
0:04:12 > 0:04:16and the CBI's internal figures show that the largest growth
0:04:16 > 0:04:19is happening in the north-east of England and the Midlands.
0:04:19 > 0:04:22Because they are starting from a lower point.Maybe.
0:04:22 > 0:04:25But Wales is also starting from a low point, don't forget.
0:04:25 > 0:04:28The Cheshire chamber of commerce has announced that there
0:04:28 > 0:04:31is more confidence among businesses there,
0:04:31 > 0:04:34and Cheshire is just over the border, and they said there is more
0:04:34 > 0:04:37confidence among businesses there than there has been for a decade.
0:04:37 > 0:04:40So the growth is not only in London and the south-east.
0:04:40 > 0:04:43The growth can be seen across many parts of Britain.
0:04:43 > 0:04:46What about Northwest Wales?I was going to refer to this constituency.
0:04:47 > 0:04:51In the Arfon constituency during the five years before the last
0:04:51 > 0:04:53general election, unemployment increased by 44%.
0:04:53 > 0:04:56Since 2010, unemployment has dropped.
0:04:56 > 0:05:00In this constituency during the last year unemployment has dropped by 16%.
0:05:00 > 0:05:03That means 250 people in this constituency have found jobs.
0:05:03 > 0:05:05Of course, we are starting from a very low level in Wales
0:05:05 > 0:05:07and there are specific reasons for that.
0:05:07 > 0:05:12But I think we have to be very careful not to play down what we have to offer Wales.
0:05:12 > 0:05:16Who is doing that? Are you accusing anybody of doing that?
0:05:16 > 0:05:18There is a tendency to complain.
0:05:18 > 0:05:21For example, the economy is succeeding in England, but not here in Wales.
0:05:21 > 0:05:25If the message is always negative...But if that's true? It's not.
0:05:25 > 0:05:26I don't think it is. That's the truth.
0:05:26 > 0:05:30If you look at the unemployment figures, unemployment is dropping.
0:05:30 > 0:05:34In my constituency, unemployment is lower than it was in 2010 when I was elected.
0:05:34 > 0:05:36That is a movement in the right direction.
0:05:36 > 0:05:39In Llandudno, for example, during the first three months of this year
0:05:39 > 0:05:42there will be an investment of £7.5 million in the private sector.
0:05:42 > 0:05:45There are definite signs. Of course, there is still a lot to do.
0:05:45 > 0:05:48As Elfyn said, business tax.
0:05:48 > 0:05:53The Chancellor of the Exchequer is giving small businesses in England a reduction.
0:05:53 > 0:05:57Will the Assembly do the same thing in Wales? That is what I want to know.
0:05:57 > 0:05:58Aled Roberts?
0:05:58 > 0:06:01It is the Welsh Government that would do it in Wales, not the Assembly.
0:06:01 > 0:06:03But I think there is a fair point here.
0:06:03 > 0:06:05There has been a growth in the economy.
0:06:05 > 0:06:08More than one million jobs have been created across Britain.
0:06:08 > 0:06:12But obviously, the challenge is bigger in some areas than others.
0:06:12 > 0:06:16I think there is a problem in some areas like the Ogwen Valley
0:06:16 > 0:06:20and the area where I was born, where the old traditional industries have
0:06:20 > 0:06:26disappeared and to some extent no jobs have replaced them for 20 years.
0:06:26 > 0:06:29Do you see any hope for those areas then?
0:06:29 > 0:06:31I think Elfyn made a fair point.
0:06:31 > 0:06:36What we have to do in Wales, I think the days when
0:06:36 > 0:06:42a company came in from Japan and created 300 or 400 jobs have gone.
0:06:42 > 0:06:46What we have to do is give small businesses in Wales more support
0:06:46 > 0:06:50so they can growand to make sure that the public sector in areas
0:06:50 > 0:06:55like Gwynedd takes the opportunities to support local businesses.
0:06:55 > 0:07:01Your party has been part of the coalition Government during the last three and a half years.
0:07:01 > 0:07:07Was it worth adopting George Osborne's painful plans in order to get to this point?
0:07:07 > 0:07:10It would have been very easy for us to have walked away
0:07:10 > 0:07:13and acceptno responsibility three and half years ago.
0:07:13 > 0:07:18That responsibility was taken by us.Was it worth it?
0:07:18 > 0:07:21We agreed on a programme.
0:07:21 > 0:07:24What we have to do is compare Britain's performance
0:07:24 > 0:07:31at the moment with countries like France who did things another way.
0:07:31 > 0:07:33Can I add one other point?
0:07:33 > 0:07:37There is an extra challenge as well and that is salary levels.
0:07:37 > 0:07:41Unfortunately, in my constituency and in Guto's constituency,
0:07:41 > 0:07:44salaries are much too low.
0:07:44 > 0:07:48It is a challenge for us to ensure not only that we create
0:07:48 > 0:07:51a growth in the economy but that we create jobs which are worth having.
0:07:51 > 0:07:56Mr Osborne has said today that he is hoping to see the minimum wage increase significantly.
0:07:56 > 0:07:58That's fine.
0:07:58 > 0:08:02But I would like to see jobs where young people are encouraged
0:08:02 > 0:08:08to stay at home and if they want to buy houses then they can with the salaries they receive.
0:08:08 > 0:08:13Salaries in North Wales and Wales in general are way behind and they are too low.
0:08:13 > 0:08:15Mair Edwards?
0:08:15 > 0:08:19I think when we look at the differences between thisarea and London for example,
0:08:19 > 0:08:23I think there is a feeling in this area
0:08:23 > 0:08:28that this growth hasn't arrived quite yet.
0:08:28 > 0:08:32When you look at the quality of the jobs available,
0:08:32 > 0:08:37maybe there are more people in work but when I assess people and go
0:08:37 > 0:08:41around and talk to people who come and see me,
0:08:41 > 0:08:45they are still saving and they are still finding it difficult.
0:08:45 > 0:08:49When you then look at the statistics with regards to optimism,
0:08:49 > 0:08:55what you see is that that optimism usually looks at middle-class people
0:08:55 > 0:08:59who are in professional jobs or business people
0:08:59 > 0:09:02who are in business with other businesses.
0:09:02 > 0:09:05But the more local businesses
0:09:05 > 0:09:09and the small businessesthat depend on our communities find it very
0:09:10 > 0:09:14difficult to spend the money because they don't get what they need.
0:09:14 > 0:09:17I think that's the problem.
0:09:17 > 0:09:22We in Northwest Wales, at the moment, have not seen this growth
0:09:22 > 0:09:26which is so obvious if you go to London at the moment.
0:09:26 > 0:09:29You are talking about these low wages in North Wales but they are
0:09:30 > 0:09:33not too low for many people coming from Eastern Europe, are they?
0:09:33 > 0:09:34That is a reasonable point.
0:09:34 > 0:09:37We say that wages are low and yet we have many jobs
0:09:37 > 0:09:40which are filled by people who come here from somewhere else.
0:09:40 > 0:09:45So in that respect I welcome the fact we are seriously looking at changing the minimum wage
0:09:45 > 0:09:48because the minimum wage has been held back during the last few years.
0:09:48 > 0:09:51I understand why but it puts small businesses in a difficult
0:09:51 > 0:09:54situation and maybe they can't afford to pay much more.
0:09:54 > 0:09:58I think we do need to look at the possibility of increasing the minimum wage
0:09:58 > 0:10:00at a time when there is growth in the economy.
0:10:00 > 0:10:03But I think we need to look at things such as skills too.
0:10:03 > 0:10:06You look at two counties in North Wales, Flint and Wrexham,
0:10:06 > 0:10:09where the situation is much stronger than in the north west.
0:10:09 > 0:10:12And yet, Denbighshire, Conwy, Anglesey and Gwynedd
0:10:12 > 0:10:16are the areas that have received hundreds of millions from Europe. What have we done with that?
0:10:16 > 0:10:20We're talking about supporting small businesses, we've had 15 years of European funding.
0:10:20 > 0:10:22So you say it has been wasted?
0:10:22 > 0:10:26We've had 15 years to invest in skills, we haven't done it.
0:10:26 > 0:10:29The biggest investor in skills in North Wales is Airbus
0:10:29 > 0:10:31and that has support from the Welsh Government,
0:10:31 > 0:10:34but it is a private sector company that invests in top quality
0:10:35 > 0:10:37skills, creating quality jobs.
0:10:37 > 0:10:41And we should make more of the skills
0:10:41 > 0:10:47at Bangor University, Glyndwr and Aberystwyth.
0:10:47 > 0:10:50I will return to the panel shortly. Audience?
0:10:50 > 0:10:58How will we attract people to invest in the businesses you mention?
0:10:58 > 0:11:04There is a site in Bryncegin in Llandegau.
0:11:04 > 0:11:08A huge some of money was invested there.
0:11:08 > 0:11:14I think £9.5 million was set aside for that site
0:11:14 > 0:11:20and they were suppose to employ 1,600. That goes back to 2005.
0:11:20 > 0:11:26Nothing has been done there and £1 million has already been spent,
0:11:26 > 0:11:30has already been wasted, on that site.
0:11:30 > 0:11:32And there are no buildings there.
0:11:32 > 0:11:35I'd suggest it coincided with the worst possibletime,
0:11:35 > 0:11:36as far as the economy.
0:11:36 > 0:11:39You can answer that shortly. Sion Jones?Thank you.
0:11:39 > 0:11:44This question is for Guto and Aled. Are millionaires now better off?
0:11:44 > 0:11:47That's your question. You're welcome to answer that.
0:11:47 > 0:11:51They are worse off now than they were for 13 years under Labour.
0:11:51 > 0:11:54Throughout that time, they paid 40% on their earnings.
0:11:54 > 0:11:57There were millionaires under the last Labour government that
0:11:57 > 0:12:00could hide their money from income tax.
0:12:00 > 0:12:03Instead of paying income tax, they paid on the rise in interest.
0:12:03 > 0:12:07They paid 18% tax, while people who cleaned offices paid 22%.
0:12:07 > 0:12:11the first thing this Government did was scrap that loophole, a loophole
0:12:11 > 0:12:16created by Peter Mandelson who said he was proud of the fact that
0:12:16 > 0:12:18people were filthy rich in London.
0:12:18 > 0:12:20That's what Labour did, remember that.
0:12:20 > 0:12:24Sion is a Labour councillor. You're welcome torespond.
0:12:24 > 0:12:30It looks like the Tory Government in London are working for millionaires.
0:12:30 > 0:12:33The working people are taxed most and are finding it tough.
0:12:34 > 0:12:37When the Conservative Lib Dem Coalition Government
0:12:37 > 0:12:41came into existence, people paid tax after £6,500.
0:12:41 > 0:12:44The coalition invested in income tax
0:12:44 > 0:12:48and reduced taxes for the poorest in society and from April,
0:12:48 > 0:12:53people can earn £10,000 without paying a penny in income tax.
0:12:53 > 0:12:57Married couples, £20,000 without paying a penny in income tax.
0:12:57 > 0:13:01Labour cut taxes for the richest in London.
0:13:01 > 0:13:04I disagree, but there we are. You're welcometo do so.
0:13:04 > 0:13:06Aled Roberts, you're part of this government too.
0:13:07 > 0:13:10Tens of thousands of people in Wales will not pay a penny in tax
0:13:10 > 0:13:15next year because of London policies.
0:13:15 > 0:13:19The Labour Party is talking about banking bonuses this week.
0:13:19 > 0:13:23The bonuses were bigger during their time,
0:13:23 > 0:13:25so what are they complaining about?
0:13:25 > 0:13:29What about the living wage?
0:13:29 > 0:13:34I think it is a difficult question in the context of rural Wales
0:13:34 > 0:13:38because it is £7.85 and I think George Osborne's plans to
0:13:38 > 0:13:43move to £7 is correct, but I would find it hard to tell small
0:13:43 > 0:13:47businesses they have to pay £7.85 in the same way as the public sector.
0:13:47 > 0:13:51It's jobs that count. People have to work.
0:13:51 > 0:13:53I agree with increasing the minimum
0:13:53 > 0:13:56but pushing it to a fee that the public sector can afford is too far.
0:13:56 > 0:14:00More voices from the audience. What about you?
0:14:00 > 0:14:06I'm worried about young people, those coming out of school,
0:14:06 > 0:14:10there's nothing to offer them, not everyone can go to university.
0:14:10 > 0:14:14These young people are disheartened
0:14:14 > 0:14:19and I've heard that the stats for 2011 say there is
0:14:19 > 0:14:25an increase in young people 15-34 committing suicide.
0:14:25 > 0:14:31I'm sure in this area there are a number of young people that
0:14:31 > 0:14:34have been referred for the same thing.
0:14:35 > 0:14:38There we are. What about you, with your handup?
0:14:38 > 0:14:41I'm surprised to see Guto Bebb complaining about Labour
0:14:41 > 0:14:47helping the rich. That's what they did.
0:14:47 > 0:14:55You have cut income tax, you can say that Labour had a lower
0:14:55 > 0:15:01income tax, that doesn't make cutting income tax a good thing.
0:15:01 > 0:15:05Also, you say that you help the poor.
0:15:05 > 0:15:10As well as increasing the amount people have to earn to pay
0:15:10 > 0:15:13income tax, you have been increasing VAT,
0:15:13 > 0:15:18that has hit people, it hits the poor most of all.
0:15:18 > 0:15:24And the Lib Dems too, Clegg said that the Conservatives would
0:15:24 > 0:15:28increase VAT, so he wanted to stop the Conservatives.
0:15:28 > 0:15:34Instead, you joined them and helped them increase taxes.
0:15:34 > 0:15:38Thank you. Gwynedd Watkin in the back row.
0:15:38 > 0:15:43The area certainly needs investment.
0:15:43 > 0:15:48Maybe we can discuss agriculture later on.
0:15:48 > 0:15:51But that will have a greater effect.
0:15:51 > 0:15:56The schemes have helped, but it is not enough.
0:15:56 > 0:15:59Paul Rawlinson? Let me get the microphone to you.
0:16:02 > 0:16:06One way to develop the local economy is for the public sector to
0:16:06 > 0:16:09spend more money with local business.
0:16:09 > 0:16:13What plans do the parties have to promote that to
0:16:13 > 0:16:17ensure there is more money spent in this area, rather than going
0:16:17 > 0:16:22to large companies from elsewhere?Thank you,Paul.
0:16:22 > 0:16:25Deri Thomas in the back row.
0:16:25 > 0:16:29I feel that small companies are important, as has been mentioned.
0:16:29 > 0:16:32This is such a nice area, the entertainment
0:16:32 > 0:16:36and tourism industries, we have the Zipwire close by too, that is
0:16:36 > 0:16:40an example, inspiring people, but in my field,
0:16:40 > 0:16:43hearing that Anglesey sea salt, Halen Mon, has been
0:16:43 > 0:16:47given special status, I hope that the university can contribute
0:16:47 > 0:16:50to industries that build on that.
0:16:50 > 0:16:54An example in my field is using agricultural land to produce
0:16:54 > 0:16:56new crops, something pioneering,
0:16:56 > 0:16:59using the latest technology from the university...
0:16:59 > 0:17:04One project I have is growing crops for use in Alzheime'rs drugs.
0:17:04 > 0:17:07Some people may have heard of that.
0:17:07 > 0:17:10There are plenty of examples and examples such as Halen Mon
0:17:10 > 0:17:13and the shitake mushrooms being grown in Beddgelert,
0:17:13 > 0:17:18inspires small businesses in the agriculture industry,
0:17:18 > 0:17:24but it is brand new agriculture, in one way.
0:17:24 > 0:17:28I want tobring this debate to a close. But you can contribute.
0:17:28 > 0:17:32James Gibbon, Bangor University. Just two things.
0:17:32 > 0:17:34One about the waste of European money.
0:17:34 > 0:17:37There is a project running in Bangor that employs
0:17:37 > 0:17:42something like 70% of people...And European money has been vital.
0:17:42 > 0:17:46European money is helping to fund it.
0:17:46 > 0:17:51And one more thing, there is a scheme supporting businesses,
0:17:51 > 0:17:54helping them to actually work with larger companies.
0:17:54 > 0:17:59I do not consider that to be a waste of money.
0:17:59 > 0:18:03Some quick comments. Mair?
0:18:03 > 0:18:06I agree that we need to go
0:18:06 > 0:18:10after small businesses and help them develop.
0:18:10 > 0:18:14And of course, the university has an important role to play,
0:18:14 > 0:18:16but I do think that from day today,
0:18:16 > 0:18:21a large number of our young people
0:18:21 > 0:18:25and society find it very difficult.A sentence each.
0:18:25 > 0:18:28Well, no-one is denying that people are finding it tough.
0:18:28 > 0:18:32But when you inherit an economy with £160 billion debt with the
0:18:32 > 0:18:36banks failing, it's no surprise that it takes time to solve that problem.
0:18:36 > 0:18:39But we are heading in the right direction.
0:18:39 > 0:18:42We mentioned the university, we need more cooperation,
0:18:42 > 0:18:46but also, the Welsh Government needs to be thinking about targeting
0:18:46 > 0:18:50underprivileged areas and ensuring that there is public
0:18:50 > 0:18:52investment there ahead of other areas.Aled Roberts.
0:18:53 > 0:18:58I spent the morning looking at the spending of European money in Wales
0:18:58 > 0:19:02and there is a problem as regards some schemes and sustainability.
0:19:02 > 0:19:06The Welsh Government does not have a good record in some fields.
0:19:06 > 0:19:11There we are. We have discussed that subject for15 minutes. Thank you.
0:19:11 > 0:19:15Let's move on to the next question, it comes from Gruff Morris. What is your question?
0:19:15 > 0:19:18There are plans to build a new estate of up
0:19:18 > 0:19:20to 70 houses in Bethesda.
0:19:20 > 0:19:26Does the panel agree that the development should be
0:19:26 > 0:19:29stopped from going ahead?
0:19:29 > 0:19:32Gruff talking about the development of anew housing estate,
0:19:32 > 0:19:3470 houses, in Bethesda.
0:19:34 > 0:19:37Does the panel agree that the development should be
0:19:37 > 0:19:41stopped fromgoing ahead? That is a hot topic in many areas.
0:19:41 > 0:19:43Mair, I will start with you this time.
0:19:43 > 0:19:46I think it is difficult at the moment.
0:19:46 > 0:19:49We know we have a poor housing stock in areas,
0:19:49 > 0:19:52especially in underprivilged area.
0:19:53 > 0:19:56We need to improve the housing stock.
0:19:56 > 0:20:00We also know we need to develop new,
0:20:00 > 0:20:04affordable housing for people to raise families,
0:20:04 > 0:20:08to make sure communities remain alive,
0:20:08 > 0:20:13that schools have enough pupils so they can continue to thrive.
0:20:13 > 0:20:19But we can't drown an area
0:20:19 > 0:20:22with so many homes that the community
0:20:22 > 0:20:27can't cope with the number of people moving in at the same time.
0:20:27 > 0:20:3170 houses doesn'tsound likely of doing that.
0:20:31 > 0:20:34Yes, in an area such as this one, I think it will.
0:20:34 > 0:20:37I think the statistics say
0:20:37 > 0:20:4084 houses were built between
0:20:40 > 0:20:422002 and 2012.
0:20:42 > 0:20:47That is, it is a big number to come at the same time.
0:20:47 > 0:20:49It isn't just 70 houses.
0:20:49 > 0:20:51I noticed there were other plans.
0:20:51 > 0:20:5524 homnes are to be built in another area in Bethesda.
0:20:55 > 0:20:59Then there are six other houses in another area.
0:20:59 > 0:21:04When you look at the areas which have been earmarked
0:21:05 > 0:21:09for development, some of those areas are huge.
0:21:09 > 0:21:13When you think look at the developments taking place in Bangor
0:21:13 > 0:21:17you then realise there's going to be a flood of housing at the same time.
0:21:17 > 0:21:21What worries me is that flood will be too much to take
0:21:21 > 0:21:23at the same time.
0:21:23 > 0:21:27Over a period of time, I'd think there was room for development.
0:21:27 > 0:21:32But I think it has to be at a rate where the community,
0:21:32 > 0:21:34especially a Welsh community,
0:21:34 > 0:21:38can accept it and change the language.
0:21:38 > 0:21:41If someone moves in from the outside, they can change language
0:21:41 > 0:21:44to speak Welsh.
0:21:44 > 0:21:46Gruff, what worries you?
0:21:46 > 0:21:50Well, the big problem is the effect it will have on the Welsh language
0:21:50 > 0:21:52in the area.
0:21:52 > 0:21:55I agree totally with what Mrs Edwards has said.
0:21:57 > 0:22:00If it was done slowly, a drip feed,
0:22:00 > 0:22:04it would be easier for the area to cope with it.
0:22:04 > 0:22:05There is, you are quite right,
0:22:05 > 0:22:09there is the threat of other developments
0:22:09 > 0:22:11in the area too.
0:22:11 > 0:22:13But how...But this is a planning application.
0:22:13 > 0:22:17It hasn't been passed yet. How string is the feeling agianst it?
0:22:17 > 0:22:23A high number had come to Neuadd Ogwen
0:22:23 > 0:22:28last year, when they were discussing this.
0:22:28 > 0:22:30There was a good local response.
0:22:30 > 0:22:33Dafydd Meurig in the back row.
0:22:34 > 0:22:37Let's get the microphone there.
0:22:37 > 0:22:39I won't give my opinion on this case
0:22:39 > 0:22:43because I am on the Gwynedd planning committee, but generally
0:22:43 > 0:22:47it is a difficult problem what to do with housing.
0:22:47 > 0:22:51You need houses for local people but you need houses of the right type.
0:22:51 > 0:22:54Affordable housing for local people.
0:22:54 > 0:22:56The front row.
0:22:57 > 0:23:01It is a hot topic in Bethesda but it's an even bigger one on Bangor.
0:23:01 > 0:23:05610 houses are to be built between two sites.
0:23:05 > 0:23:09That will effect the structure of the area generally
0:23:09 > 0:23:15and it will also transform the community totally.
0:23:15 > 0:23:18Will 70 houses in Bethesda do that?
0:23:18 > 0:23:23Bethesda is a lot smaller than Penrhosgarnedd in Bangor.
0:23:23 > 0:23:25True. In the back row.
0:23:26 > 0:23:29There's 700 house but where are the jobs?
0:23:29 > 0:23:31There aren't any.
0:23:31 > 0:23:34Go down Bethesdsa main street and see the shops that are closed.
0:23:34 > 0:23:38There are lots of houses for sale and they want to build more.
0:23:38 > 0:23:42The only thing they've done, is have the poeple who are kicked out
0:23:42 > 0:23:44of the big towns and dumped them here.
0:23:44 > 0:23:49Don't you think the 70 houses will be suitable for local people
0:23:49 > 0:23:52or those looking for a new house?
0:23:52 > 0:23:55Fine but how will they pay for it without a job?
0:23:55 > 0:23:57Right, let's go to the panel.
0:23:57 > 0:23:58Guto Bebb.
0:23:58 > 0:24:01I can't give an opinion on 70 houses in Bethesda.
0:24:01 > 0:24:03I don't know the area well enough.
0:24:03 > 0:24:06But I think this is something we're going to see across North Wales
0:24:07 > 0:24:08for the next 20 years.
0:24:08 > 0:24:12There's been huge pressures on local authorities...
0:24:12 > 0:24:15I'm not going to blame local authorities,
0:24:15 > 0:24:19but they're under pressure in North Wales, and across Wales,
0:24:19 > 0:24:22to acept the Assembly's policy of building more homes.
0:24:22 > 0:24:27Councils, be they in Gwynedd, Conwy, have agreed to plans
0:24:27 > 0:24:30to build thousands of homes. In Conwy...
0:24:30 > 0:24:31Are they needed?
0:24:31 > 0:24:34In Conwy, we're talking about 6,300 houese.
0:24:34 > 0:24:37That means about 20,000 of the population.
0:24:37 > 0:24:39The population of Conwy at the moment is 110,000.
0:24:39 > 0:24:42We're talking about a population growth of 20%.
0:24:42 > 0:24:45We had the question asking where the economic growth was coming from,
0:24:45 > 0:24:51it's right to ask where we can find 20,000 people,
0:24:51 > 0:24:54what's the nature of the jobs offered to these people?
0:24:54 > 0:24:59Conwy Council, who have just accepted these 6,300 houses,
0:24:59 > 0:25:02are also closing rural schools.
0:25:02 > 0:25:05So they're not expecting a natural growth in the population.
0:25:05 > 0:25:08I'm afraid this is a structure forced on local councils
0:25:08 > 0:25:11right across NOrth Wales by the Assembly.
0:25:11 > 0:25:14Unfortunately, there are examples of people
0:25:14 > 0:25:17who say they're against this type of thing,
0:25:17 > 0:25:19but who have voted in favour of it.
0:25:19 > 0:25:23I think I'm right to say, Aled can correct me,
0:25:23 > 0:25:25there has been a strong campaign in Wrexham.
0:25:25 > 0:25:28Wrexham Council is continuing to reject the Assembly's pressing.
0:25:28 > 0:25:33The same backbone wasn't seen by Conwy Council,
0:25:33 > 0:25:36the only party to reject it in Conwy was the Conservatives.
0:25:37 > 0:25:40Aled Roberts.That's true. I was the leader of Wrexham.
0:25:40 > 0:25:43The starting point is the Welsh Government.
0:25:43 > 0:25:46The Welsh Govenrment tells every Welsh council how many homes
0:25:46 > 0:25:50that have to be built under the local plan within ten years.
0:25:50 > 0:25:55In Wrexham, the council was keen to have about 6,000 houses.
0:25:55 > 0:25:59The Welsh Governmet wanted between 10,000 and 12,000.
0:25:59 > 0:26:04Once the local plan is accepted by the county council
0:26:04 > 0:26:08after that it's just a matter of choosing areas within the county
0:26:08 > 0:26:10for houses.
0:26:10 > 0:26:13If the area of Bethesda has been chosen
0:26:13 > 0:26:18for housing developments, it's difficult for any planning committee
0:26:18 > 0:26:20to reject the plan.
0:26:20 > 0:26:23But I thought housing stock was old in an area like Bethesda.
0:26:23 > 0:26:27New homes are needed and this is the way to do that.
0:26:27 > 0:26:32No. What they are doing is aying how many new houses need to be built.
0:26:32 > 0:26:34That's the problem.
0:26:34 > 0:26:38Another Welsh Government failing is they have changed their opinion
0:26:38 > 0:26:39on language assessments.
0:26:39 > 0:26:43They have done nothing for two years until TAN 20.
0:26:44 > 0:26:47What they have said is, in the first instance they were eager
0:26:47 > 0:26:50to have language assessments within the local plan.
0:26:50 > 0:26:53During the past year, after the minister was changed,
0:26:53 > 0:26:55they have said they aren't going after that,
0:26:55 > 0:26:58they want language assesments for individual applications.
0:26:58 > 0:26:59Elfyn Llwyd.
0:26:59 > 0:27:02The first thing I'd say, years ago when I was a young solicitor,
0:27:02 > 0:27:04and that is years ago,
0:27:04 > 0:27:07I worked a lot on planning law.
0:27:07 > 0:27:11The two bog words were always local need.
0:27:11 > 0:27:13Shouldn't you start with that?
0:27:13 > 0:27:16At the end of the day, planning rules
0:27:16 > 0:27:19are needed to be implemented locally.
0:27:19 > 0:27:21That's their purpose.
0:27:21 > 0:27:24I don't know what planet these people in Cardiff are living on.
0:27:24 > 0:27:28They tell people of this area they have to take 70, like that.
0:27:28 > 0:27:33If the local need isn't there, you can't force it on anyone.
0:27:38 > 0:27:41Mair is right. Maybe the housing stock is old
0:27:41 > 0:27:46but some of us have been beating the drum on this for years.
0:27:46 > 0:27:50If there isn't VAT on stuff that builds new homes
0:27:50 > 0:27:54you shouldn't put VAT on maintaining old houses.
0:27:54 > 0:27:57There are plenty within the reach of young people
0:27:57 > 0:27:59to renovate them to make proper homes.
0:27:59 > 0:28:03We should offer them grants to do that.
0:28:03 > 0:28:06It isn't beyond people to think of things like that.
0:28:06 > 0:28:09It's easy to say, that field's going, let's build 70.
0:28:09 > 0:28:12That's raw and stupid.
0:28:12 > 0:28:14It doesn't match up with local need,
0:28:14 > 0:28:16and I think it should be opposed.
0:28:16 > 0:28:17OK, fine.
0:28:19 > 0:28:21Rhiannon Evans.
0:28:22 > 0:28:26When I sat on Bethesda Community Council many years ago,
0:28:26 > 0:28:29this county was earmarked for homes.
0:28:30 > 0:28:35Well, we fought against expensive houses
0:28:35 > 0:28:37at Llawr y Nant.
0:28:37 > 0:28:40We didn't receive much local support.
0:28:40 > 0:28:43There was only a small group.
0:28:43 > 0:28:47We did managed to overturn the plans to build huge houses,
0:28:47 > 0:28:50we halved it. We need houses for rent in Bethesda
0:28:50 > 0:28:52and bungalows please for the elderly.
0:28:54 > 0:28:56You can close on that, Guto Bebb.
0:28:56 > 0:28:59I agree with everything Elfyn said.That's new!
0:28:59 > 0:29:03But I would point out one thing.I must have made a mistake!
0:29:03 > 0:29:07But I would point out one thing which isn't completely honest.
0:29:07 > 0:29:09I think it's too late.
0:29:09 > 0:29:13The truth is, Gwynedd's leaders have accepted these plans.
0:29:13 > 0:29:17Once the leadership has accepted these plans
0:29:17 > 0:29:20and Plaid were the leaders at the time, what will happen now?
0:29:20 > 0:29:24If Wrexham has enough backbone to say no, why didn't that happen?
0:29:24 > 0:29:27Conwy are lead by Plaid Cymru, Gwynedd are lead by Plaid Cymru,
0:29:27 > 0:29:30but I wonder whether the fact Plaid Cymru was part of the coalition
0:29:30 > 0:29:33in Cardiff before 2011 influenced the decision making?
0:29:33 > 0:29:36I don't want to turn this into a Punch and Judy show.
0:29:36 > 0:29:38Come on!
0:29:38 > 0:29:41I was looking forward to that! You probably were!
0:29:41 > 0:29:45The plain truth of it is there is a review in Gwynedd
0:29:45 > 0:29:49to see where the language comes into planning...
0:29:49 > 0:29:52But the development has been approved.
0:29:52 > 0:29:54Yes. But if the review comes into something else
0:29:54 > 0:29:57it will have to be reconsidered.
0:29:57 > 0:30:01I just don't see how people in Cardiff, all respect to them,
0:30:01 > 0:30:05knows better than the people of Bethesda about local need.
0:30:05 > 0:30:06I don't understand it and I don't accept it.
0:30:07 > 0:30:08I don't disagree with that.
0:30:08 > 0:30:12Why are representatives of Bethesda, who are Plaid Cymru members,
0:30:12 > 0:30:16haven't stood up to the Assembly and that's not what happened.
0:30:16 > 0:30:19They bowed down to what Cardiff called for.
0:30:19 > 0:30:22There is a council in North Wales that's gone the opposite way.
0:30:22 > 0:30:24This review on the language and so forth,
0:30:24 > 0:30:27will change things we should.
0:30:27 > 0:30:30The words spilt and milk come into it.
0:30:30 > 0:30:32Maybe indeed but we'll see what comes of it.
0:30:32 > 0:30:35I knew you wouldn't agree for long!
0:30:36 > 0:30:40It's time for a break. Join us in two minutes.
0:30:57 > 0:31:02Welcome back. You're watching Pawb a'i Farn from Bethesda.
0:31:02 > 0:31:05Let's have out third question asked by Sion Jones.
0:31:05 > 0:31:08We've heard from you before. What's your question?
0:31:08 > 0:31:13It seems that the number of local authorities in Wales will be cut.
0:31:13 > 0:31:16How will that effect services in Wales?
0:31:16 > 0:31:19There we go, Sion says there will be fewer councils in Wales,
0:31:19 > 0:31:25so they say, but will that raise the standards of services?
0:31:25 > 0:31:28Aled Roberts, as the former leader of Wrexham Council.
0:31:29 > 0:31:34I think there is a theory that more equals better.
0:31:34 > 0:31:36That's not true.
0:31:36 > 0:31:39There are smaller councils which provide excellent services.
0:31:39 > 0:31:43There are large councils which provide poor services.
0:31:43 > 0:31:49There's a hang-up in Wales about restructuring all the time.
0:31:49 > 0:31:52If we look at the Health Service in North Wales
0:31:52 > 0:31:56we all knwo that big, or size,
0:31:56 > 0:31:59doesn'tequate to improving services.
0:31:59 > 0:32:02We have to be very careful.
0:32:02 > 0:32:04Are you against it?
0:32:05 > 0:32:07It sounds like it.
0:32:07 > 0:32:12I don't think that restructuring, in one thing,
0:32:12 > 0:32:14will mean things will improve.
0:32:15 > 0:32:18I think there's a problem with people's passion
0:32:18 > 0:32:20in public services in Wales
0:32:21 > 0:32:25and the culture within different authorities in Wales.
0:32:25 > 0:32:28That's what creates good councils as well as strong leadership.
0:32:28 > 0:32:34Does that mean we're all right as we are? Is 22 all right?
0:32:34 > 0:32:37We're not fine as we are... So we need restructuring?
0:32:37 > 0:32:42No, we don't. You need to look at some of these counties
0:32:42 > 0:32:46in South Wales which has a population of about 70,000
0:32:47 > 0:32:50who run their own education department.
0:32:50 > 0:32:53If you believe that one council across North Wales
0:32:53 > 0:32:56is going to improve services in Gwynedd and Wrexham,
0:32:56 > 0:32:58I think you and the Welsh Government
0:32:58 > 0:33:00are members of the same party.
0:33:00 > 0:33:02Fine. Mair Edwards.
0:33:02 > 0:33:05When I heard there were going to be changes again,
0:33:05 > 0:33:08there would be restructuring, my heart sank.
0:33:08 > 0:33:11It reminded me of the time when we had all the changes
0:33:11 > 0:33:16while I was in school, to go from 13 counties to eight.
0:33:16 > 0:33:18Now we have 22.
0:33:18 > 0:33:19I do believe that 22 is too much.
0:33:19 > 0:33:25When you look at South Wales, you can see there are
0:33:26 > 0:33:30counties which are so small but with a high population.
0:33:30 > 0:33:35They still have problems with their services
0:33:36 > 0:33:40in order to meet the people's needs.
0:33:40 > 0:33:45In North Wales, having just one county hall
0:33:45 > 0:33:48somewhere in Conwy I suppose,
0:33:48 > 0:33:52that would suit the people of Dwyfor I'm sure.
0:33:52 > 0:33:55Are in favour or opposing. Opposing.
0:33:55 > 0:33:57Definitely for North Wales.
0:33:57 > 0:33:59But maybe for some of the South Wales counties,
0:34:00 > 0:34:02maybe that should be looekd at.
0:34:02 > 0:34:05Let's have you Guto Bebb.
0:34:05 > 0:34:07I think there's a point here.
0:34:07 > 0:34:11I don't want to restructure 22 because the Assembly says so.
0:34:11 > 0:34:15On the other hand I think there are three or four councils
0:34:15 > 0:34:18where you can fit the population into the Millennium Stadium.
0:34:18 > 0:34:20I think that's too small.
0:34:20 > 0:34:22I remember doing some work before I was elected
0:34:22 > 0:34:25in Merthyr Council which was failing.
0:34:25 > 0:34:29I think the population was 58,000 and next door you've Blaenau Gwent
0:34:29 > 0:34:31with a population of 70,000 and they were failing.
0:34:32 > 0:34:37I think there is a process here where we should invite councils
0:34:37 > 0:34:40to consider where they can see a possibility of unifying.
0:34:40 > 0:34:45But it seems Carwyn Jones is going call for restructuring.
0:34:45 > 0:34:47The question was whether it was a good thing.
0:34:47 > 0:34:50If Carwyn Jones believes that's what he wants to do,
0:34:50 > 0:34:53I'd have my doubts. It would cost £200 million.
0:34:54 > 0:34:57At a time where the public purse is so tight
0:34:57 > 0:34:59I don't think it's a priority to pay £200 million
0:34:59 > 0:35:01to make people redundant.
0:35:01 > 0:35:04I heard Gwynedd's leader saying they couldn't afford not to.
0:35:04 > 0:35:08They have to invest now to have better services in the long-term.
0:35:08 > 0:35:11I doubt whether that is true.
0:35:11 > 0:35:14I'd argue there should be cooperation first.
0:35:14 > 0:35:19Councils should even volunteer if they see the need for merging.
0:35:19 > 0:35:23I wouldn't like the Assembly deciding they know better
0:35:23 > 0:35:25what should work in North Wales.
0:35:25 > 0:35:27That was the purpose of devolution.
0:35:27 > 0:35:30Devolution is you have decisions being made as close to the people
0:35:30 > 0:35:32as possible.
0:35:32 > 0:35:35The problem with devolution in Wales is the Assembly sucks in power
0:35:35 > 0:35:39and then decides what's best for the people of Bethesda.
0:35:39 > 0:35:42Was the 1990s restructuring by the Tory government a mistake?
0:35:42 > 0:35:48Yes, definitely. Having 22 local authorities was a mistake.
0:35:48 > 0:35:50I was on the committee and we sweated for months.
0:35:50 > 0:35:53At the end, I pulled off my tie and said we'd finished.
0:35:53 > 0:35:56Dafydd Wigley said, don't worry we'll be back before you retire.
0:35:58 > 0:36:00Once again, he was right.
0:36:00 > 0:36:04The hope back then was there would be more transborder working.
0:36:04 > 0:36:08For example, specialists like speech therapists,
0:36:08 > 0:36:11that councils would cooperate.
0:36:11 > 0:36:14It hasn't happened enough, has it, Aled, as a man who knows?
0:36:14 > 0:36:17But people won't volunteer to do that.
0:36:17 > 0:36:22It's possible they will if they think their council will disappear.
0:36:22 > 0:36:26We need a good structural plan
0:36:26 > 0:36:29for full cooperation where you have a few councils
0:36:29 > 0:36:33working together and employing a few speech therapists,
0:36:33 > 0:36:37and they cooperate and it's all much more effective.
0:36:37 > 0:36:40If this new commission on Monday
0:36:40 > 0:36:44recommends11 councils, you'd say no?
0:36:44 > 0:36:46You've asked for my perosnal opinion.
0:36:46 > 0:36:49The Williams Committee will report back next week.
0:36:49 > 0:36:51I'm giving you my personal opinion.
0:36:52 > 0:36:54I think better cooperation should be given one more chance
0:36:54 > 0:36:57partly because of Guto's reasons.
0:36:57 > 0:37:02There will be millions spent on redundancies and some logos
0:37:02 > 0:37:06and some new offices, and new vans and everything else.
0:37:06 > 0:37:10Try and coopoerate so the public receives better services.
0:37:10 > 0:37:11There has been volunteering...
0:37:14 > 0:37:17You're agreeing again!
0:37:17 > 0:37:19There has been volunteering because
0:37:19 > 0:37:22there's a school improvement plan in the north.
0:37:22 > 0:37:24That isn't going to be implemented until April.
0:37:24 > 0:37:27But yet they're telling us we have to restructure again.
0:37:27 > 0:37:30All energies are being put into restructuring
0:37:30 > 0:37:32rather than improving services.
0:37:32 > 0:37:34Sion, you asked the question.
0:37:34 > 0:37:39There are also 25 planning departments in Wales
0:37:39 > 0:37:41which include the National Parks.
0:37:41 > 0:37:44I am very concerned
0:37:44 > 0:37:48that decision within the National Parks
0:37:48 > 0:37:50are going to be moved to county councils.
0:37:50 > 0:37:54I feel that will give National Park a negative effect.
0:37:54 > 0:37:57What do you think?
0:37:57 > 0:38:00Let's have a few more from the audience.
0:38:00 > 0:38:02Paul, you're opinion on this.
0:38:02 > 0:38:04Fewer local authorities are stay as we are?
0:38:04 > 0:38:08I think with the cooperating, we've tried to do that
0:38:08 > 0:38:10for several years.
0:38:10 > 0:38:14I think the gains are very small.
0:38:14 > 0:38:18I don't there are much savings to be had through cooperating.
0:38:18 > 0:38:21I think it's inevitable
0:38:21 > 0:38:24that we have fewer authorities.
0:38:24 > 0:38:27I am against having one for the enitre north of Wales.
0:38:27 > 0:38:30North Wales is too big for that.
0:38:30 > 0:38:34There are huge differences between the east,
0:38:34 > 0:38:39which is much more industrial, and the rural west.
0:38:39 > 0:38:41What do you see for this part of the world?
0:38:41 > 0:38:43Gwynedd back with Anglesey?
0:38:43 > 0:38:46That is very possible.
0:38:46 > 0:38:48Guto Bebb?I'm not sure.
0:38:48 > 0:38:51The old Gwynedd included Aberconwy as well.
0:38:51 > 0:38:54There would be questions raised there I'm sure.
0:38:54 > 0:38:55I'm not sure what will happen.
0:38:55 > 0:38:58But the question about National Parks, I'd oppose
0:38:58 > 0:39:01for Snowdonia National Park, for example, to be pulled into
0:39:01 > 0:39:03local authority.
0:39:03 > 0:39:06But saying that, seeing how the Assembly says
0:39:06 > 0:39:08how people should put forward their plans,
0:39:08 > 0:39:11having any planning body outside Cardiff would be a waste of time.
0:39:11 > 0:39:14On the point about National Park, I have to agree with Guto.
0:39:17 > 0:39:20It seems to me those are the themes of the evening.
0:39:20 > 0:39:22We're going for a short break. Goodbye.
0:39:38 > 0:39:41Welcome back to the final part of tonight's programme
0:39:41 > 0:39:43from the Ogwen Valley.
0:39:43 > 0:39:46Let's have our next question from David Williams. Where are you?
0:39:47 > 0:39:49The announcement by minister, Alun Davies,
0:39:49 > 0:39:54about farming payments is a blow to all farmers in Wales.
0:39:54 > 0:39:56Does the panel agree?
0:39:56 > 0:39:59David says that Alun Davies's announcement on payments to farmers
0:39:59 > 0:40:03is a huge blow to farmers across Wales.
0:40:03 > 0:40:05Does the panel agree, Elfyn Llwyd?
0:40:05 > 0:40:07Yes, I do agree.
0:40:07 > 0:40:09It's too fast and too deep.
0:40:10 > 0:40:13It will move from a per head payment to a per acre payment.
0:40:16 > 0:40:20These changes will be harmful to farmers in Wales.
0:40:20 > 0:40:23We have to remmeber that something like 80% of the money
0:40:23 > 0:40:26coming into agriculture in Wales
0:40:26 > 0:40:28comes from the European Union.
0:40:28 > 0:40:33It ehlps to provide for at least 16,000 families working the land.
0:40:33 > 0:40:38Just think if that money should go, it will be very bad, I think.
0:40:38 > 0:40:42I'd hoped that the cut could be changed
0:40:42 > 0:40:46in order to make it smaller,
0:40:46 > 0:40:49so there's a possibility of adapting to it.
0:40:49 > 0:40:52I'm not going to talk about diversification and Pillar 2.
0:40:52 > 0:40:57At the end of the day a farmer's job is to get the best meat.
0:40:57 > 0:41:01That's what he does and he does an excellent job.
0:41:01 > 0:41:06If we'd lose these little farms, Wales itself would lose out
0:41:06 > 0:41:08not only the local economies.
0:41:08 > 0:41:13I remember when foot and mouth arrived,
0:41:13 > 0:41:16there were some shoppers, I won't say where,
0:41:16 > 0:41:20who always complained I spoke us for farmers and not them.
0:41:20 > 0:41:24Foot and mouth arrived here and the shop's takings were down.
0:41:24 > 0:41:27I saw him later and he said, "I see what you mean."
0:41:28 > 0:41:30The farmer spends money locally.
0:41:30 > 0:41:34But Alun Davies's point is he wants to make the farmer
0:41:34 > 0:41:38self-sufficient without all the grants
0:41:38 > 0:41:41like New Zealand, for example.
0:41:41 > 0:41:43That's a lovely ideal, Dewi.
0:41:43 > 0:41:45Shouldn't we aim for it?
0:41:45 > 0:41:48We've been aiming for it for the last 50 years.
0:41:48 > 0:41:53The question is can you do it on the worldwide price of meat?
0:41:53 > 0:41:55You can't.
0:41:55 > 0:41:58You can't do it, that's the problem.
0:41:58 > 0:42:00Let's turn to some farmers.
0:42:00 > 0:42:01David, you asked the question.
0:42:01 > 0:42:04In this area, it's very mountainous and difficult
0:42:05 > 0:42:07without all this recent weather.
0:42:09 > 0:42:14As Elfyn said, we're part of a community, we spend locally.
0:42:14 > 0:42:17Money stays in the area.
0:42:17 > 0:42:19Do you accept Alun Davies's idea?
0:42:19 > 0:42:23He's trying to take you off these grants.
0:42:23 > 0:42:26The problem is we're competing with other countries
0:42:26 > 0:42:27who receive these grants.
0:42:27 > 0:42:29They have an advantage.
0:42:29 > 0:42:33Fine, if he's taking money away from us
0:42:33 > 0:42:37but the produce we sell, it has to double in price.
0:42:37 > 0:42:41Will the public pay more for their food? I don't think so.
0:42:41 > 0:42:45The money won't disappear. He's putting it towards development.
0:42:45 > 0:42:47But he hasn't said what.
0:42:47 > 0:42:49He hasn't said what.
0:42:50 > 0:42:53I don't know if the panel know what he's going to do.
0:42:53 > 0:42:55Gwynedd Watkin on behalf of the FUW.
0:42:56 > 0:42:59We have to remember what the public want at the end of the day.
0:42:59 > 0:43:03You can go down the route of New Zealand and have ranch farming
0:43:03 > 0:43:05where if a sheep gets into difficulty with a lamb
0:43:05 > 0:43:07they don't call a vet.
0:43:07 > 0:43:09They let the sheep die where it is.
0:43:09 > 0:43:14Do you want farms here to be so big so they can be competitive?
0:43:14 > 0:43:18It won't happen because you've got people like the RSPCA
0:43:18 > 0:43:21and other environmentalists who lobby so hard
0:43:21 > 0:43:23compared to countries without grants.
0:43:23 > 0:43:26But do you accept his principle?
0:43:26 > 0:43:29In the long term, it would be nice to do without grants?
0:43:29 > 0:43:31Your'e a business like any other business.
0:43:32 > 0:43:35But at the end of the day... But you're treated differently.
0:43:35 > 0:43:40Why can't we secure a low price for food for the public,
0:43:40 > 0:43:44that's what the money's for, to keep prices down.
0:43:44 > 0:43:46Right. Guto Bebb.
0:43:46 > 0:43:49I think that it is unfortunate.
0:43:49 > 0:43:54You could discuss the common agriculture policy forever.
0:43:54 > 0:43:57This is the situation that exists,
0:43:57 > 0:44:02and what we've seen of the policies passed by Alun Davies,
0:44:02 > 0:44:07is that farmers are going to be disadvantaged in Wales,
0:44:07 > 0:44:10comparable with famers in England perhaps.
0:44:10 > 0:44:12But they'll be at a disadvantage compared with
0:44:12 > 0:44:14other European countries.
0:44:14 > 0:44:16If we're spending 40% of EU funding on agriculture
0:44:16 > 0:44:19there's a question whether that's wise.
0:44:19 > 0:44:21But if we are spending 40%,
0:44:21 > 0:44:23we should have a food supply that's safe,
0:44:23 > 0:44:27a food supply of a high standard, and one that's affordable.
0:44:27 > 0:44:30What's painful about the path we're following is
0:44:30 > 0:44:34Europe was over-producing significantly,
0:44:34 > 0:44:37and now we're in a place where there is a scarcity of food,
0:44:37 > 0:44:41and Europe are going in the opposite direction and are paying people
0:44:41 > 0:44:44not to produce. I do think there is a basic problem
0:44:44 > 0:44:47with the fact we're asking farmers not to farm.
0:44:47 > 0:44:52The fact we're asking farmers not to supply us with enough food
0:44:52 > 0:44:54is terrible.
0:44:54 > 0:44:58There are basic questions about what Europe are trying to create.
0:44:58 > 0:45:01Just to finish... Isn't there an irony here?
0:45:01 > 0:45:05You're usually agianst European money but here you're keen to have it.
0:45:05 > 0:45:10If we create a situation where there are 27 countries in Europe
0:45:10 > 0:45:15and they accept this money, we have to have the same situation in Wales.
0:45:15 > 0:45:17That's what's fair.
0:45:17 > 0:45:20If Wales is different from the other countries it isn't fair.
0:45:20 > 0:45:24You usually argue to having business standing on their own two feet.
0:45:24 > 0:45:29You can only have that where there is a level playing field.
0:45:29 > 0:45:34Wales is different because 70% is in the old LFA.
0:45:34 > 0:45:37An acre of high ground and an acre of low ground isn't the same.
0:45:37 > 0:45:39I accept that.
0:45:39 > 0:45:44Wales is different because so many acres are quite barren.
0:45:44 > 0:45:46One short point.
0:45:47 > 0:45:49The only point I want to make is
0:45:49 > 0:45:53Wales has moved faster towards the environmental matters
0:45:53 > 0:45:54compared to other parts of Europe.
0:45:55 > 0:45:59We are moving faster again now so this hits farmers twice.
0:45:59 > 0:46:00Mair Edwards.
0:46:00 > 0:46:03I'm not a farmer of a daughter of a farmer.
0:46:03 > 0:46:05I don't always understand agriculture.
0:46:05 > 0:46:08What strikes me as being odd at times is
0:46:08 > 0:46:12there are so many subsidies going into one sector.
0:46:12 > 0:46:18Getting the balance between boosting a business
0:46:18 > 0:46:20in order to maintain communities
0:46:21 > 0:46:24because agriculture is so important to our communities,
0:46:24 > 0:46:28that's a difficult balance to get right.
0:46:28 > 0:46:33There is sometimes a danger of over-depending
0:46:33 > 0:46:37on subsidies coming from elsewhere.
0:46:39 > 0:46:42When you look at farmers who do succeed
0:46:42 > 0:46:47in being able to live with fewer subsidies
0:46:47 > 0:46:49you see they've gone for quality
0:46:49 > 0:46:52and they can increase their price for what they get for it.
0:46:52 > 0:46:58But that doesn't put enough food on people's plates.
0:46:58 > 0:47:02I think there's a tension between those two things.
0:47:02 > 0:47:05I must confess I don't know what the answer is.
0:47:05 > 0:47:09But I do sympthise with farmers who feel they're losing out.
0:47:09 > 0:47:14But I think that needs to be restructured.
0:47:15 > 0:47:18If agriculture is so important to the community
0:47:18 > 0:47:22what hope do young farmers like me have to try for a council farm?
0:47:22 > 0:47:27I have to put in a tender and compete with older people
0:47:27 > 0:47:30who has more in their pocket than somebody like me.
0:47:30 > 0:47:32Yet, they still put it out to tender.
0:47:32 > 0:47:35I think it should be down to interviews.
0:47:35 > 0:47:37You're disheartened?Yes.
0:47:37 > 0:47:39Bethan in the front row.
0:47:40 > 0:47:45Young people don't want to farm because they don't see a profit.
0:47:45 > 0:47:49How do you solve that?
0:47:49 > 0:47:53In the future the older farmers won't be around for ever.
0:47:53 > 0:47:56There won't be anyone left to farm.
0:47:56 > 0:47:57Fair point. How about you?
0:47:57 > 0:48:01I'm in favour of giving money to farmers
0:48:01 > 0:48:06right across Britain who farm the highlands
0:48:06 > 0:48:12to allow them to let the land back to its natural state.
0:48:12 > 0:48:16So when we do have torrential rain
0:48:16 > 0:48:19the water is absorbed somewhere.
0:48:19 > 0:48:24Then we won't have flooding.
0:48:24 > 0:48:27You're in favour of things going back to the wild?Yes.
0:48:27 > 0:48:30Another young farmer. Hang on, yes, you.
0:48:30 > 0:48:34About the comment of too many old farmers,
0:48:34 > 0:48:38they hold onto the farms rather than letting younger people take them.
0:48:38 > 0:48:42They shold have a scheme where young farmers get the farms
0:48:42 > 0:48:46for a few years to try and succeed and se what they can do.
0:48:47 > 0:48:50Fine. Aled Roberts, you can have the last word.
0:48:50 > 0:48:53The biggest problem we have is the blow to Welsh farmers
0:48:53 > 0:48:59is worse than for any other country in Britain let alone in Europe.
0:48:59 > 0:49:02They're taking off 15% from single farm payments in Wales
0:49:03 > 0:49:04but 1% in Italy.
0:49:04 > 0:49:07That's what devolution is.
0:49:07 > 0:49:09No, not devolution.
0:49:10 > 0:49:11Following a different policy.
0:49:11 > 0:49:13We have our own agriculture minister.
0:49:13 > 0:49:16I'm not saying policies have to be the same in every country
0:49:16 > 0:49:19but where's the sense that Welsh farmers
0:49:19 > 0:49:22has 15% of their payment removed
0:49:22 > 0:49:24and Italian farmers have 1%?
0:49:24 > 0:49:27That's it. Thank you to the people of the Ogwen Valley.
0:49:27 > 0:49:29Thank you, panel, for your contributions.
0:49:29 > 0:49:32Next week we'll be in Pontardawe.
0:49:32 > 0:49:34Until then, goodbye.