0:00:24 > 0:00:26On our panel tonight,
0:00:26 > 0:00:30financial expert and archaeologist, Dr Carol Bell,
0:00:30 > 0:00:34two Assembly Members - the Labour Member for Llanelli, Keith Davies,
0:00:34 > 0:00:37and Suzy Davies from the Conservatives,
0:00:37 > 0:00:41and from Swansea University's law department, Prof. R Gwynedd Parry.
0:00:41 > 0:00:43Give them a warm welcome.
0:00:43 > 0:00:45APPLAUSE
0:00:55 > 0:00:59Good evening and welcome to another edition of Pawb a'i Farn,
0:00:59 > 0:01:01the S4C discussion programme
0:01:01 > 0:01:05which has been travelling around Wales for 21 years.
0:01:05 > 0:01:07It's a place we visit almost every year
0:01:07 > 0:01:11and tonight we're among the people of the Swansea Valley
0:01:11 > 0:01:13in the Pontardawe Leisure Centre.
0:01:13 > 0:01:17We have an hour to discuss the issues of the day.
0:01:17 > 0:01:20Have you guessed what we'll be covering tonight?
0:01:20 > 0:01:23A word of warning to the people of Anglesey -
0:01:23 > 0:01:28next we'll be in Llangefni and you're welcome to join us.
0:01:28 > 0:01:32That's enough from me. It's time to turn to the first question.
0:01:32 > 0:01:37Cynthia Dodd at the back. Cynthia, what's your question?
0:01:37 > 0:01:41Does the panel believe local government reorganisation will
0:01:41 > 0:01:43lead to better services for the public?
0:01:43 > 0:01:45Thank you, Cynthia.
0:01:45 > 0:01:48Does the panel believe local government reorganisation will
0:01:48 > 0:01:50lead to better public services?
0:01:50 > 0:01:52I'll start with you, Keith.
0:01:52 > 0:01:54Definitely.
0:01:54 > 0:02:00In 1996, the Conservatives decided they wanted to get rid
0:02:00 > 0:02:05of district and county councils and have one council instead.
0:02:05 > 0:02:10In England, they decided no council should serve a population
0:02:10 > 0:02:13of fewer than 300,000.
0:02:13 > 0:02:17In Wales, we only have one council with more than 300,000 residents.
0:02:17 > 0:02:19We have many small councils
0:02:19 > 0:02:25and the problem they have is that they can't appoint enough experts.
0:02:25 > 0:02:27Things happen from time to time.
0:02:27 > 0:02:32If you want to solve a problem, you have to have the experts.
0:02:32 > 0:02:36Our small councils, like Merthyr, Blaenau Gwent and Ceredigion,
0:02:36 > 0:02:38they are too small to have that expertise.
0:02:38 > 0:02:41Reorganisation will cost. Are you prepared to pay?
0:02:41 > 0:02:46The Williams Commission said on Monday it would cost £100,000...
0:02:46 > 0:02:49The Local Government Association says it could be £200,000,
0:02:49 > 0:02:51£300,000 or £400,000.
0:02:51 > 0:02:53If you say £200,000,
0:02:53 > 0:02:58Williams also say it will save £80,000 a year.
0:02:59 > 0:03:05- Suzy Davies.- I think that the most important thing here is services.
0:03:05 > 0:03:07That's what we need to consider.
0:03:07 > 0:03:13It's not clear how this will help or how it will hinder services.
0:03:13 > 0:03:19I'm sceptical whether making councils bigger will work.
0:03:19 > 0:03:22It might work, we don't know.
0:03:22 > 0:03:26There's a danger that decisions will be made
0:03:26 > 0:03:28further away from the people.
0:03:28 > 0:03:30That's a cause for concern.
0:03:30 > 0:03:35We have a lot to consider with this report.
0:03:35 > 0:03:38You don't believe merging councils will lead to better services
0:03:38 > 0:03:40as this report suggests?
0:03:40 > 0:03:43We don't know. There's a question of cost as well.
0:03:43 > 0:03:45Williams think it will.
0:03:45 > 0:03:49It's not clear from the report how much it will cost.
0:03:49 > 0:03:52I've got an open mind.
0:03:52 > 0:03:55You didn't answer that question, Keith Davies.
0:03:55 > 0:03:58Will the services improve if we merge councils?
0:03:58 > 0:04:03Suzy Davies says bigger doesn't necessarily mean better.
0:04:03 > 0:04:06Perhaps I should give you examples. I started in Mid Glamorgan.
0:04:06 > 0:04:10Four of the new counties would make up Mid Glamorgan.
0:04:10 > 0:04:12I moved to Carmarthenshire.
0:04:12 > 0:04:17We asked Ceredigion whether we could work together.
0:04:17 > 0:04:20That's what will come form the commission.
0:04:20 > 0:04:23The councils have failed to work together
0:04:23 > 0:04:28and this will make sure that services will be better.
0:04:28 > 0:04:31The public will get a better service.
0:04:31 > 0:04:34So you'd be happy to see 15,000 people lose their jobs?
0:04:34 > 0:04:36We're not certain of that.
0:04:36 > 0:04:39That's just one suggestion that was made.
0:04:39 > 0:04:43If we're talking about jobs and wages,
0:04:43 > 0:04:47look how much the chief executives are earning
0:04:47 > 0:04:51and the heads of departments across the councils.
0:04:51 > 0:04:57We have 22 treasurers, 22 social services, and so on.
0:04:57 > 0:05:00They are all earning close to £200,000.
0:05:00 > 0:05:03Suzy Davies, answer that point.
0:05:03 > 0:05:07These enormous salaries and the duplication of jobs.
0:05:07 > 0:05:12Nobody wants to see the top officials earning so much
0:05:12 > 0:05:17when people at the bottom earn so little.
0:05:17 > 0:05:18Particularly these days.
0:05:18 > 0:05:23What's important is the point about co-operation
0:05:23 > 0:05:27and that co-operation between councils isn't working voluntarily.
0:05:27 > 0:05:31The Welsh Government chose that agenda,
0:05:31 > 0:05:34the co-operation,
0:05:34 > 0:05:37but it's not clear how they've been assisting councils.
0:05:37 > 0:05:39To understand this properly,
0:05:39 > 0:05:43the commission hoped work would start on this by Easter.
0:05:43 > 0:05:45Will your party oppose the mergers?
0:05:45 > 0:05:50It's not going to happen before Easter, as they hope it will.
0:05:50 > 0:05:52No, but work could start by Easter.
0:05:52 > 0:05:56Work on what? It's not clear what the First Minister wants.
0:05:56 > 0:06:01He has asked councils to co-operate but what is he looking out for?
0:06:01 > 0:06:03Gwynedd Parry.
0:06:03 > 0:06:06I welcome this report in principal.
0:06:06 > 0:06:10We should reorganise local government.
0:06:10 > 0:06:13Since the last reorganisation,
0:06:13 > 0:06:16I believe we have seen many failures,
0:06:16 > 0:06:21especially in education in many of the small councils.
0:06:21 > 0:06:25We have plenty of evidence to show that the model has failed.
0:06:25 > 0:06:31The situation on Anglesey and in other councils has been terrible.
0:06:31 > 0:06:34As someone raised in the old Gwynedd,
0:06:34 > 0:06:39it was a solid council in many ways and did a lot of good things,
0:06:39 > 0:06:41especially in Welsh-medium education.
0:06:41 > 0:06:45So you believe bigger means better education?
0:06:45 > 0:06:48If you create something larger,
0:06:48 > 0:06:52then you have more opportunity to get better expertise,
0:06:52 > 0:06:58rather than having a lack of resources and funding,
0:06:58 > 0:07:03where you can't sustain a high quality service.
0:07:03 > 0:07:09I'd be happy. The paradox is, when they created the smaller councils,
0:07:09 > 0:07:15they also created the Welsh Assembly as another level of government.
0:07:15 > 0:07:20I think there's too much governance across Wales.
0:07:20 > 0:07:24We need a way of creating something
0:07:24 > 0:07:28more suitable for our needs today.
0:07:28 > 0:07:31Two in favour. What about you, Carol Bell?
0:07:31 > 0:07:35I'm also in favour. The point on expertise is a very important one.
0:07:35 > 0:07:40I have direct experience
0:07:40 > 0:07:43in the education sector.
0:07:43 > 0:07:47Services have been shared out
0:07:47 > 0:07:51to find the most effective solutions.
0:07:51 > 0:07:55I'll give you an example - the Archaeological School in Athens.
0:07:55 > 0:07:59There's one in Rome, Jerusalem, Amman and Ankara,
0:07:59 > 0:08:02and they all have to do their accounts.
0:08:02 > 0:08:07They all have someone to keep the accounts locally,
0:08:07 > 0:08:10but then nobody will have the expertise
0:08:10 > 0:08:15to take it to the Charities Commission.
0:08:15 > 0:08:19I said five years ago
0:08:19 > 0:08:25- that we need one man to run all this in London.- Or woman.
0:08:25 > 0:08:28It was a man in the end.
0:08:28 > 0:08:30Man or woman, you're quite right.
0:08:30 > 0:08:35It took a long time to put this point across
0:08:35 > 0:08:38and for it to be accepted by others.
0:08:38 > 0:08:42But now it all works like clock work.
0:08:42 > 0:08:45We have managed to save a fortune and everyone is happy.
0:08:45 > 0:08:47So more is better?
0:08:47 > 0:08:50I think more is better.
0:08:50 > 0:08:54The point about expertise is the important thing.
0:08:54 > 0:08:58When there is a problem, you have to find the expertise
0:08:58 > 0:09:00and if you are a larger authority,
0:09:00 > 0:09:03you have more opportunities to find that expertise.
0:09:03 > 0:09:06I want one answer from Keith Davies,
0:09:06 > 0:09:09as someone who used to be a councillor in Carmarthenshire.
0:09:09 > 0:09:12Would you be prepared to see the old Dyfed return?
0:09:12 > 0:09:14Yes, I would be happy with that.
0:09:14 > 0:09:17That's what I said earlier.
0:09:17 > 0:09:21When I went down to Carmarthenshire in the 1990s,
0:09:21 > 0:09:27Dyfed was separated, but we asked Ceredigion and they agreed with us.
0:09:27 > 0:09:31The education departments of Ceredigion and Carmarthenshire
0:09:31 > 0:09:34worked together and we wanted to appoint jointly.
0:09:34 > 0:09:36- And that worked?- Yes.
0:09:36 > 0:09:40Right, let's take this to the audience.
0:09:40 > 0:09:43Cynthia, you asked the question. How would you respond?
0:09:43 > 0:09:48Time will tell whether the services improve,
0:09:48 > 0:09:50but I know that at the moment,
0:09:50 > 0:09:55speaking as someone from a community in the Swansea Valley,
0:09:55 > 0:09:57we feel we are not getting fair play.
0:09:57 > 0:10:00When Neath Port Talbot was created,
0:10:00 > 0:10:04there was no mention of the Swansea Valley in the name,
0:10:04 > 0:10:06- although it was suggested. - And the name's important to you?
0:10:06 > 0:10:08Yes, it is.
0:10:08 > 0:10:13I feel we are a long way from Neath Port Talbot
0:10:13 > 0:10:17and we are not considered in decision-making.
0:10:17 > 0:10:19Down in Neath Prot Talbot.
0:10:19 > 0:10:21If that's true,
0:10:21 > 0:10:25what will happen with Bridgend, which is even further away?
0:10:25 > 0:10:31Gwaun-Cae-Gurwen and Cwmgors will be even further than us.
0:10:31 > 0:10:37If we are Swansea Valley communities,
0:10:37 > 0:10:42I believe it would be more natural for us to join with Swansea.
0:10:42 > 0:10:46That's also being considered. Thank you, Cynthia.
0:10:46 > 0:10:49Lewis Aaron at the back.
0:10:49 > 0:10:53It was ironic to hear Suzy Davies say she was worried
0:10:53 > 0:10:55about decision-making being taken further away
0:10:55 > 0:10:59when her party was opposed to devolution to start with.
0:10:59 > 0:11:01That's one point.
0:11:01 > 0:11:03With these changes,
0:11:03 > 0:11:09it's important that we have fewer senior officials paid high wages.
0:11:09 > 0:11:12Will this lead to a situation
0:11:12 > 0:11:14where senior officials are paid compensation,
0:11:14 > 0:11:18as we've seen at the BBC, when they retire.
0:11:18 > 0:11:22It's important that the savings are passed down to the people
0:11:22 > 0:11:24and they benefit.
0:11:24 > 0:11:29But if people lose their jobs, they should be compensated, should they?
0:11:29 > 0:11:32If you cut at the top, you can reinvest at the bottom.
0:11:32 > 0:11:34Lyn Griffiths.
0:11:34 > 0:11:37Speaking from experience, unlike the panel, perhaps,
0:11:37 > 0:11:40I have seen two reorganisations.
0:11:40 > 0:11:42From the old Carmarthenshire to Dyfed
0:11:42 > 0:11:45and from Dyfed to the new Carmarthenshire.
0:11:45 > 0:11:49I have to say that Dyfed was the better authority out of all of them.
0:11:49 > 0:11:52We've mentioned making savings.
0:11:52 > 0:11:55At the moment, you have three chief executives,
0:11:55 > 0:11:58three county officials, three head of...
0:11:58 > 0:12:00If I may step in, Lyn.
0:12:00 > 0:12:03There were smaller councils as well.
0:12:03 > 0:12:08There were lower level councils and they had officials.
0:12:08 > 0:12:10Yes, but...
0:12:11 > 0:12:13..what I saw in Dyfed,
0:12:13 > 0:12:18many of the officials were employed by the next councils,
0:12:18 > 0:12:23but I thought that the situation then was much more professional.
0:12:23 > 0:12:27Thank you, Lyn. Matthew Evans, the headteacher of Ystalyfera.
0:12:27 > 0:12:3322 is too many in a small country like Wales.
0:12:33 > 0:12:37Monmouthshire has four high schools and a director of education.
0:12:37 > 0:12:40There is room for improvement.
0:12:40 > 0:12:42Some smaller councils and some around here
0:12:42 > 0:12:46haven't taken Welsh medium education seriously
0:12:46 > 0:12:49and we've heard about that this week.
0:12:49 > 0:12:53There's a danger that the Assembly could discuss this
0:12:53 > 0:12:55for months and months.
0:12:55 > 0:12:59We need a political consensus and some leadership.
0:12:59 > 0:13:01I agree with the First Minister.
0:13:01 > 0:13:06This is the best option. We should be building on this.
0:13:06 > 0:13:09It needs to make sense to our pupils, young people
0:13:09 > 0:13:11and the people of Wales.
0:13:11 > 0:13:14Would it make a difference to you as a headmaster...
0:13:14 > 0:13:19Cynthia was worried about Bridgend, compared to the current situation?
0:13:19 > 0:13:23There are good points for both options.
0:13:23 > 0:13:27But we can't wait another year for another report
0:13:27 > 0:13:33with some general consensus that we can't appoint into jobs
0:13:33 > 0:13:38but I accept the point that we do not have the expertise.
0:13:38 > 0:13:43I'm concern that we'll appoint people in the short-term
0:13:43 > 0:13:48and then we'll have to make them redundant and pay compensation.
0:13:48 > 0:13:51- We need to reach a decision.- Exactly. - Over here. Del Morgan.
0:13:51 > 0:13:57The whole discussion has been about local government reorganisation.
0:13:57 > 0:14:01Services are the most important thing, as the question said.
0:14:01 > 0:14:06We're all interested in what the county will be called...
0:14:06 > 0:14:08The name is important to you?
0:14:08 > 0:14:11The name will be important.
0:14:11 > 0:14:14But the Williams Commission Report is supposed to look at
0:14:14 > 0:14:16the entire public sector.
0:14:16 > 0:14:21The report says that reorganisation itself is not enough.
0:14:21 > 0:14:24We'll have to look further
0:14:24 > 0:14:27into health services, social care
0:14:27 > 0:14:31local government as a whole, and partnerships and so on.
0:14:31 > 0:14:33That's where the answer is.
0:14:33 > 0:14:36Councillor Alun Llewelyn.
0:14:36 > 0:14:41A lot of questions have not been answered in this report,
0:14:41 > 0:14:43as Del suggested.
0:14:43 > 0:14:47- Have you read it all? - I have not read it all.
0:14:47 > 0:14:50- It's quite a large report. - The summary is 100 pages!
0:14:50 > 0:14:56Suzy Davies referred to the democratic situation.
0:14:56 > 0:15:00That reminds us that the Conservatives created the system
0:15:00 > 0:15:05during the 1990s as a way of undermining devolution.
0:15:05 > 0:15:10One of the effects was that the changes in 1995 and 1996
0:15:10 > 0:15:13weren't financed properly.
0:15:13 > 0:15:16We have suffered ever since.
0:15:16 > 0:15:18Will we get it right this time?
0:15:18 > 0:15:21Wouldn't it be better just to leave things?
0:15:21 > 0:15:25I think everyone accepts that some sort of change is inevitable,
0:15:25 > 0:15:30but the Welsh Government needs to support the changes properly.
0:15:30 > 0:15:33We have to learn the lessons from the 1990s,
0:15:33 > 0:15:35and make sure we have the resources.
0:15:35 > 0:15:39Otherwise, the services will continue to suffer.
0:15:39 > 0:15:43- It will undermine the changes. - Let's take this to the lowest level.
0:15:43 > 0:15:47Do you believe that refuse collection will be better off?
0:15:47 > 0:15:51I don't think we will see much change at that level,
0:15:51 > 0:15:55but with certain aspects which are under pressure,
0:15:55 > 0:15:59such as social care and education, we should see improvements.
0:15:59 > 0:16:01Thank you. Aeron Richards.
0:16:01 > 0:16:07It seems that we are looking more at making savings
0:16:07 > 0:16:10than improving services.
0:16:10 > 0:16:14- We need to save money.- Yes, but services are even more important.
0:16:14 > 0:16:17We need a balance.
0:16:17 > 0:16:22I think that every community has its own champions.
0:16:22 > 0:16:25Those champions know the area,
0:16:25 > 0:16:29they know the people and they know what needs to be done.
0:16:29 > 0:16:34- We may lose out on that. - Because it would move further away?
0:16:34 > 0:16:38Yes, because the decision-making would take place further away.
0:16:38 > 0:16:42- Hywel Richards. - The Swansea Valley is one valley.
0:16:42 > 0:16:45It stretches from Bwlch above Craig-y-Nos
0:16:45 > 0:16:47down to Swansea Bay and the Mumbles.
0:16:47 > 0:16:51The same geology, the same geography, the same people,
0:16:51 > 0:16:55the same community and history, but we are part of four counties.
0:16:55 > 0:16:58The wife and I have come from Carmarthenshire up the road,
0:16:58 > 0:17:01through Powys and we're in Neath Port Talbot.
0:17:01 > 0:17:05A mile down the road you're in the city of Swansea.
0:17:05 > 0:17:07There must be people here from four counties.
0:17:07 > 0:17:10Carmarthenshire, Powys, Neath Port Talbot and Swansea.
0:17:10 > 0:17:15You only need one. Planning - the Swansea Valley as one unit.
0:17:18 > 0:17:21There we are.
0:17:21 > 0:17:25- A short comment from you. - Balance is what is needed.
0:17:25 > 0:17:30If there are savings being made in the economy and specialisation in the
0:17:30 > 0:17:34larger unit...but moving the services further from the people is a concern.
0:17:34 > 0:17:38We need to get that balance.
0:17:38 > 0:17:40I won't be coming back to the panellists on that.
0:17:40 > 0:17:43Let's move on to the next question.
0:17:43 > 0:17:46Over to Bill Hughes for our second question.
0:17:46 > 0:17:53Should the head of the Urdd have accepted an MBE from the government.
0:17:53 > 0:17:59Thank you, Bill. Should the head of the Urdd have accepted an MBE?
0:17:59 > 0:18:01Gwynedd Parry?
0:18:03 > 0:18:06Well, the question reminds me of a sonnet by T H Parry Williams.
0:18:06 > 0:18:11He said, "you can give your shilling to any party that says it will
0:18:11 > 0:18:19"Wales should be united." But he says be careful not to name the language.
0:18:19 > 0:18:21I don't think the language is such a dangerous topic
0:18:21 > 0:18:28but I am sure royalty is very dangerous to discuss.
0:18:30 > 0:18:34My response is to say that it is a personal matter
0:18:34 > 0:18:39whether one receives or declines one of these honours.
0:18:39 > 0:18:41The honour is for the individual.
0:18:41 > 0:18:45I accept that some individuals might say it reflects
0:18:45 > 0:18:48well on the institution that they are a part of and so on,
0:18:48 > 0:18:51but it is up to the individual.
0:18:51 > 0:18:54But when that individual is head of the Urdd,
0:18:54 > 0:18:56he is more than an individual, surely?
0:18:56 > 0:19:02Obviously there is a connection but nobody in the Urdd were ever
0:19:02 > 0:19:08asked to sanction the award and so they are not a part of it either.
0:19:08 > 0:19:11There is some kind of tension between the individual
0:19:11 > 0:19:14and the institutions he is connected to.
0:19:14 > 0:19:17But it is a matter for the individual in the end.
0:19:17 > 0:19:21So has the criticism been unfair?
0:19:21 > 0:19:26The problem is that the criticism is political
0:19:26 > 0:19:30and perhaps a little old-fashioned as well,
0:19:30 > 0:19:35because the political context has changed completely.
0:19:35 > 0:19:40I was listening to a programme the other day which referred to 1969.
0:19:40 > 0:19:42The world has completely changed.
0:19:42 > 0:19:48In Wales, the context is completely different.
0:19:48 > 0:19:52So if the context is so different, why accept the honour?
0:19:52 > 0:19:56That is a matter for the individual.
0:19:56 > 0:20:01What is important to remember is that this argument, that this
0:20:01 > 0:20:07is a sign of an institutional state of mind, I do not accept that.
0:20:07 > 0:20:12Carol Bell. Was Efa Gruffudd Jones right to accept this honour?
0:20:12 > 0:20:15I completely agree. This is a matter for him.
0:20:15 > 0:20:21It is a matter for the individual whether you accept an honour.
0:20:21 > 0:20:27- It is nothing to do with anybody else.- And that's it?- That's it.
0:20:27 > 0:20:30Despite the fact that she is the head of the Urdd?
0:20:30 > 0:20:34- You don't see a difference?- I think it is a matter for the individual.
0:20:34 > 0:20:40I'm sure there is nothing in her contract that says
0:20:40 > 0:20:44she is not allowed to accept any kind of award from the Queen.
0:20:44 > 0:20:46Keith Davies?
0:20:46 > 0:20:48I think this is very difficult
0:20:48 > 0:20:52because the decision is the individual's.
0:20:52 > 0:20:56But possibly, because of the Urdd, it is difficult,
0:20:56 > 0:20:58not because of her job.
0:20:58 > 0:21:01What I have against these honours is that people are awarded them
0:21:01 > 0:21:04because of their jobs.
0:21:04 > 0:21:07I don't think they deserve them because of their jobs.
0:21:07 > 0:21:09They should have done something extra
0:21:09 > 0:21:12and I am glad to see that Carwyn Jones is going to do something
0:21:12 > 0:21:16in Wales so that we don't have to approach the royal family.
0:21:16 > 0:21:19In the end, the Queen has nothing to do with that.
0:21:19 > 0:21:22The decision is made by civil servants but what I have
0:21:22 > 0:21:27against them is that people are getting them because of their jobs.
0:21:27 > 0:21:30They are paid to do their jobs.
0:21:30 > 0:21:34- If you were offered an MBE, Keith, what would be the answer?- Why?
0:21:34 > 0:21:39Because of your hard work over so many years.
0:21:39 > 0:21:40But it depends what the work is.
0:21:42 > 0:21:46- You know...- But you have doubts about the system?- Certainly.
0:21:46 > 0:21:50Some people are given the award because of their jobs
0:21:50 > 0:21:53- and they do not deserve it.- Suzy?
0:21:53 > 0:21:55Of course, she has been given the award
0:21:55 > 0:21:59because of her services to children and her job helps with that
0:21:59 > 0:22:01but personally, I don't see the problem.
0:22:01 > 0:22:07She has done her job and done more than was expected of her.
0:22:07 > 0:22:10But she was paid for it as Keith said.
0:22:10 > 0:22:14But she has been very successful and she's not the only one
0:22:14 > 0:22:19to be acknowledged for her work because she is in a public position.
0:22:19 > 0:22:22She has done a good job for our children
0:22:22 > 0:22:25and I am more than happy for her to receive the award.
0:22:25 > 0:22:27So three of you are certain that she is right,
0:22:27 > 0:22:32and Keith is sitting on the fence? Let's turn to the audience.
0:22:32 > 0:22:35Is there any strong opinion?
0:22:36 > 0:22:42The question we should be asking is why would somebody who leads
0:22:42 > 0:22:46a Welsh national institution would want to accept such
0:22:46 > 0:22:53an honour from the Queen? That is the question.
0:22:53 > 0:22:57Personally, I wouldn't accept such a thing from the Queen.
0:22:57 > 0:23:00I am glad that we are getting some kind of honours
0:23:00 > 0:23:04from the Welsh Government, because somebody who works in Wales...
0:23:04 > 0:23:07the important thing is what do the people of Wales thinks,
0:23:07 > 0:23:12- not what the royalty thinks. - But that is the current system.
0:23:12 > 0:23:14We do live in the British state
0:23:14 > 0:23:17and these are the awards that are offered.
0:23:17 > 0:23:21But it is time that the Assembly says that...
0:23:21 > 0:23:25It is the people that should decide, not somebody in London.
0:23:25 > 0:23:29So you would refuse the MBE but accept a St David's honour,
0:23:29 > 0:23:30if it were offered? Right.
0:23:30 > 0:23:35I have a crystal ball at home and I look into the crystal
0:23:35 > 0:23:41ball to see what kind of gongs will be awarded by the Assembly.
0:23:41 > 0:23:44I can tell you that Labour will be getting them all!
0:23:48 > 0:23:51Well, we'll see about that. There was a suggestion here?
0:23:51 > 0:23:55I find it hard to believe that somebody leading a national
0:23:55 > 0:23:59institution that promotes the Welsh language would kowtow to the
0:23:59 > 0:24:02Queen in Buckingham Palace. It's very difficult.
0:24:02 > 0:24:07You find that difficult to believe. Your hand was up.
0:24:07 > 0:24:11I feel that any honour should not be political in any way.
0:24:11 > 0:24:17- You feel that this is political? - Yes.- Somebody from Bryntawe school.
0:24:17 > 0:24:20I think the number of people who have supported the Urdd over
0:24:20 > 0:24:21the years are disappointed.
0:24:21 > 0:24:25She was awarded the honour because she managed the Urdd
0:24:25 > 0:24:30and I think people feel "We don't want to accept this honour.
0:24:30 > 0:24:33"We have supported the Urdd over the years.
0:24:33 > 0:24:37"Why should we accept this now?" I think...I'm not sure.
0:24:37 > 0:24:41I think a lot of people are angry.
0:24:41 > 0:24:46People were not consulted and she has...
0:24:46 > 0:24:48But having said that, it is a personal honour,
0:24:48 > 0:24:50as our friends on the panel said.
0:24:50 > 0:24:54Yes, but people who have supported the Urdd are taking it
0:24:54 > 0:24:57personally that she has done this herself
0:24:57 > 0:25:02- because she is supposed to represent them.- Bill, you asked the question.
0:25:02 > 0:25:09- Where do you stand?- I would never accept any kind of award like this.
0:25:09 > 0:25:14I have been offered and refused it.
0:25:14 > 0:25:18I don't want to, because I think everybody works hard
0:25:18 > 0:25:20and I don't think...
0:25:20 > 0:25:25Some people do more work than others but we would all like to be
0:25:25 > 0:25:31treated the same. But I asked the question
0:25:31 > 0:25:35because my cousin raised it in Prynhawn Da, as it happens.
0:25:35 > 0:25:38I wanted to see what young people thought.
0:25:38 > 0:25:43And exclusive for Pawb A'i Farn! Bill was offered one but refused.
0:25:43 > 0:25:46- I refused.- Lewis, your hand was up.
0:25:47 > 0:25:51The question is, did she accept the MBE because of her own work or
0:25:51 > 0:25:53because of the Urdd team's work?
0:25:53 > 0:25:56The people who worked with her, going out on a daily basis
0:25:56 > 0:25:58and working for the Urdd.
0:25:58 > 0:26:02And it was given to her because she happened to be at the top.
0:26:02 > 0:26:06Where is the acknowledgement for the people underneath her?
0:26:06 > 0:26:10Bill Hughes agrees with you. There are various different opinions.
0:26:10 > 0:26:13Thank you for your contributions. Time for a break.
0:26:13 > 0:26:16Join us again in two minutes.
0:26:31 > 0:26:32Welcome back.
0:26:32 > 0:26:36We are having a very interesting hour in this week's Pawb A'i Farn.
0:26:36 > 0:26:42But let's move on to our third question from Michael Williams.
0:26:42 > 0:26:48This week, there were two stories about difficulties
0:26:48 > 0:26:53concerning ambulance services leading to deaths.
0:26:53 > 0:26:57Is there an answer to this kind of crisis,
0:26:57 > 0:27:01which seems to happen regularly?
0:27:01 > 0:27:06Thank you. Two important stories this week.
0:27:06 > 0:27:09There were stories about difficulties
0:27:09 > 0:27:14concerning the ambulance service leading to deaths.
0:27:11 > 0:27:14Is there an answer to this kind of crisis,
0:27:14 > 0:27:18which seems to be happening so regularly? Suzy Davis.
0:27:18 > 0:27:22Of course, it is difficult to discuss this because of what has
0:27:22 > 0:27:28happened with those two families who have lost relatives.
0:27:28 > 0:27:32Unfortunately, I know there is an inquest,
0:27:32 > 0:27:35but it is obvious that there is a question of what has
0:27:35 > 0:27:40happened to the money during these last few years.
0:27:40 > 0:27:46The Welsh Government had proposed to take a billion pounds
0:27:46 > 0:27:50out of the system and of course they have changed their minds now.
0:27:50 > 0:27:53They have listened to the Welsh Conservatives
0:27:53 > 0:27:56and put more money back into the system
0:27:56 > 0:28:02but that money is going to go towards primary health care.
0:28:02 > 0:28:09There is a lot of strain on the ambulance service at the moment.
0:28:09 > 0:28:15But it is important to this area because it will affect south Wales.
0:28:15 > 0:28:20What is the answer? That is the question. More money?
0:28:20 > 0:28:23Of course, that is part of it.
0:28:23 > 0:28:28There is an ambulance service review at the moment
0:28:28 > 0:28:30and it will be worth seeing what it says.
0:28:30 > 0:28:34But paramedics who I have talked to in the past
0:28:34 > 0:28:38say that what is happening now, or rather, not happening,
0:28:38 > 0:28:43I can see how disheartening it must be for the paramedics who
0:28:43 > 0:28:48receive a call from a patient and they cannot arrive in time.
0:28:48 > 0:28:52There is a question of distance
0:28:52 > 0:28:59and also of how to solve the problem of queues outside A&E departments.
0:28:59 > 0:29:05That is a matter of money and doctors and beds.
0:29:05 > 0:29:07So with more money, things would improve?
0:29:07 > 0:29:10And the way the system works.
0:29:10 > 0:29:15- We have lost one in every five beds in hospitals.- Keith Davies.
0:29:15 > 0:29:18The Health Minister is looking at the system and what he told us
0:29:18 > 0:29:26in the Assembly a couple of months ago was that the ambulance is
0:29:26 > 0:29:29doing two very different things.
0:29:29 > 0:29:34They respond to patients who are going to hospital for operations
0:29:34 > 0:29:37but they also respond to emergency calls
0:29:37 > 0:29:41and he is saying that we have to remove the ambulance
0:29:41 > 0:29:44service that is taking people for operations,
0:29:44 > 0:29:48and hand over that responsibility to every Health Authority.
0:29:48 > 0:29:53But to those that respond to 999 calls, he mentions two things.
0:29:53 > 0:29:56That is to train those who are in the ambulance
0:29:56 > 0:30:01and that there is also a national thing to make sure it works.
0:30:01 > 0:30:06But part of the problem is that there are no beds available.
0:30:06 > 0:30:10They are full of long-term patients who can't go out to community
0:30:10 > 0:30:15hospitals which have either closed down or the beds have gone.
0:30:15 > 0:30:17But they are working there.
0:30:17 > 0:30:23The health minister was with us in Llanelli three weeks ago and there
0:30:23 > 0:30:28is a home there where they can move out of hospitals but can't go home,
0:30:28 > 0:30:33but they are going into homes and there are people in Carmarthenshire
0:30:33 > 0:30:36working for the Health Service and the local authority.
0:30:36 > 0:30:39They are working together to get people out of hospitals
0:30:39 > 0:30:43and we should be looking at that all over Wales.
0:30:43 > 0:30:45Does it mean spending more money?
0:30:45 > 0:30:49Suzy said you had spent less and that was true for a while.
0:30:49 > 0:30:51England was spending more.
0:30:51 > 0:30:57Our priority is the Health Service because the Conservatives
0:30:57 > 0:31:02wanted to take 20% out of education at the time.
0:31:02 > 0:31:03Gwynedd Parry.
0:31:03 > 0:31:06The basic question I am asking is,
0:31:06 > 0:31:11when you think about this news about the problem with ambulances, put it
0:31:11 > 0:31:17in its context - queues and waiting lists are getting longer and longer.
0:31:17 > 0:31:20This week we heard that they are going to close the maternity
0:31:20 > 0:31:22unit in Withybush Hospital.
0:31:22 > 0:31:25Put it all in context and you ask the question,
0:31:25 > 0:31:31is this the inheritance we have after 15 years of devolution?
0:31:31 > 0:31:33You ask yourself the question,
0:31:33 > 0:31:37who has been responsible for the health service for the last 15 years?
0:31:37 > 0:31:41There is a fundamental question about how the health service in Wales
0:31:41 > 0:31:46in its entirety, because this is just one example of something broader...
0:31:46 > 0:31:50You are blaming Keith Davies's party.
0:31:50 > 0:31:54I'm asking the Government what is the explanation for this situation.
0:31:54 > 0:31:56It's because priorities in Wales are different.
0:31:56 > 0:31:59- No, you have to consider as well... - Well, it's true.
0:32:00 > 0:32:01Specialists.
0:32:01 > 0:32:04If you have to go, like I did, to Morriston Hospital
0:32:04 > 0:32:07and go in there for a stint because of heart trouble,
0:32:07 > 0:32:11there are 10 hospitals in West Wales feeding Morriston.
0:32:11 > 0:32:14What Morriston has is specialists.
0:32:14 > 0:32:17That's what happens with these little children.
0:32:17 > 0:32:23But the unsatisfactory situation, according to Gwynedd Parry,
0:32:23 > 0:32:26stems from the fact that we've had 15 years of Labour government in Cardiff Bay.
0:32:26 > 0:32:31And I'm saying that we have the specialists that can ensure that those children are born safely.
0:32:31 > 0:32:34But not everyone in Wales can get to them.
0:32:35 > 0:32:39The Health Minister said this week, yesterday or the day before,
0:32:39 > 0:32:43that the air ambulance would take them from Withybush if there are big problems there.
0:32:43 > 0:32:45You have an answer for everything.
0:32:45 > 0:32:48There is some dissatisfaction in the audience.
0:32:48 > 0:32:51Michael, you asked the question. Come on.
0:32:51 > 0:32:56You said, Dewi, that one problem is the fact that ambulances wait
0:32:56 > 0:33:01outside the hospital with patients in them because patients
0:33:01 > 0:33:08in the hospital have to stay after receiving treatment.
0:33:08 > 0:33:10What is the answer to that problem?
0:33:10 > 0:33:16We have to move patients out into smaller hospitals and into maternity homes.
0:33:16 > 0:33:20John Evans in the back.
0:33:20 > 0:33:25There is a lot of talk about the financial problems we have
0:33:25 > 0:33:30and I think this goes back to the Barnett Formula. Certainly.
0:33:30 > 0:33:36Carwyn Jones has been saying that Wales has lost millions of pounds
0:33:36 > 0:33:42and that would help the NHS, the education sector and everything else.
0:33:42 > 0:33:47But where was the Labour Party back in the '90s?
0:33:47 > 0:33:55Gordon Brown was at the helm and he made sure that Scotland was not going to lose out.
0:33:55 > 0:33:58So Wales has lost out.
0:33:58 > 0:34:03That is why we have all these financial problems in Wales.
0:34:03 > 0:34:06If they had re-formed the Barnett Formula,
0:34:06 > 0:34:09things would be so much better in Wales now.
0:34:09 > 0:34:13All right. So that is to blame. That takes us back years.
0:34:13 > 0:34:17Howard Davies, 15 years of Labour government is being blamed here.
0:34:17 > 0:34:19We always hear that, don't we?
0:34:19 > 0:34:26At the end of the day, if local GPs went out after 6.00pm at night and on weekends,
0:34:26 > 0:34:29half the ambulances would not have the pressure put on them
0:34:29 > 0:34:35and accident and emergency departments in hospitals would not be as full as they are now.
0:34:35 > 0:34:39When the GPs went out before the new contract came in,
0:34:39 > 0:34:41we didn't have this problem.
0:34:41 > 0:34:45I accept the answer and it's an interesting answer but who brought that new contract in?
0:34:45 > 0:34:51- We have to agree. We brought it in. - Tony Blair's government.
0:34:51 > 0:34:54Yes. But at the end of the day, we have to realise
0:34:54 > 0:34:58that every government does things which aren't right.
0:34:58 > 0:35:03I accept that and I'm telling you that we were not right at that time.
0:35:03 > 0:35:06But now we have to say that we are seeing what has happened,
0:35:06 > 0:35:09we can see that it's not working and it has to be changed.
0:35:09 > 0:35:13- So we have to go back. So you accept that mistakes were made?- Yes.
0:35:13 > 0:35:17- Let's see if Keith Davies agrees. Was it a mistake?- Yes. Definitely.
0:35:17 > 0:35:20We don't often have people apologising on this programme.
0:35:20 > 0:35:26- Yes, but doctors have new contracts now.- Where was that hand up?
0:35:26 > 0:35:31- Rebecca, once again.- The state of the NHS at the moment is disgraceful.
0:35:31 > 0:35:35We don't get any new policies from the Welsh Government,
0:35:35 > 0:35:37the Labour government.
0:35:37 > 0:35:42I agree that we should have more people in our smaller hospitals.
0:35:42 > 0:35:47Health boards are just closing smaller hospitals.
0:35:47 > 0:35:50Nobody can go there. They are all closed.
0:35:50 > 0:35:52The ambulances are queueing up.
0:35:52 > 0:35:55People are dying and the Labour Government does nothing.
0:35:55 > 0:35:59Keith Davies will get the opportunity to answer. Del Morgan?
0:35:59 > 0:36:03More money is needed but that is a very difficult point.
0:36:03 > 0:36:07- So you accept the money is not available?- It won't be for a while.
0:36:07 > 0:36:12But we need better management and the Labour Government has to take the lead.
0:36:12 > 0:36:18We are talking about bringing people in in an air ambulance.
0:36:18 > 0:36:22If people like Rhys Meirion hadn't walked from the south to the north
0:36:22 > 0:36:26and thousands of people had not contributed, there would not be an air ambulance.
0:36:26 > 0:36:28A fair point. Lewis Aaron in the back.
0:36:28 > 0:36:31What disappoints me more than anything
0:36:31 > 0:36:34is that all the opposition parties point the finger all the time.
0:36:34 > 0:36:39What about cooperating to answer the problem? Let's work together. Every party.
0:36:39 > 0:36:42But if they disagree, they are not going to cooperate, are they?
0:36:42 > 0:36:45But the thing is, pointing the finger just causes damage.
0:36:45 > 0:36:48We need some kind of consensus, a way forward together.
0:36:48 > 0:36:51We shouldn't be pointing the finger. We should be working together.
0:36:51 > 0:36:53John Evans?
0:36:53 > 0:36:57I just wanted to talk about a personal experience I had in the hospital recently.
0:36:57 > 0:37:01I was in hospital at the beginning of the month.
0:37:01 > 0:37:05I was in a ward in Neath Port Talbot Hospital.
0:37:05 > 0:37:08There were six of us there at the start.
0:37:08 > 0:37:11Four went out and there were two of us left.
0:37:11 > 0:37:14Me and another man in the corner.
0:37:14 > 0:37:17He had come from Morriston Hospital to receive treatment
0:37:17 > 0:37:22and he was waiting to go back to Morriston Hospital.
0:37:22 > 0:37:28He had a nurse keeping him company, as she has to.
0:37:28 > 0:37:32And of course, what happened, the nurse phoned up
0:37:32 > 0:37:36and said he'd had the treatment and asked when they ambulance was coming to collect him.
0:37:36 > 0:37:39It was 2.00pm in the afternoon at that time.
0:37:39 > 0:37:43They said, we can't come before 8.00pm.
0:37:43 > 0:37:46The nurse had to go home and of course,
0:37:46 > 0:37:51this man was lying in bed and I was in the opposite bed.
0:37:51 > 0:37:58The next thing, 8.00pm, 9.00pm, 10.00pm, 11.00pm,
0:37:58 > 0:38:02- 12.00am, 1.00am, 2.00am... - This is a short story!
0:38:02 > 0:38:08I woke up at 2:30am and the ambulance came to wake the man
0:38:08 > 0:38:10to take him back to Morriston Hospital.
0:38:10 > 0:38:12I thought it was a disgraceful situation.
0:38:12 > 0:38:16We're glad you are here with us tonight to tell us the story.
0:38:16 > 0:38:18Carol Bell?
0:38:18 > 0:38:22A lot of things could be a lot better
0:38:22 > 0:38:25but I think it's very important for everyone
0:38:25 > 0:38:30to try and work out how to create priorities to answer 999.
0:38:30 > 0:38:34Not wait for committees, we're terrible in Wales for committees.
0:38:34 > 0:38:39We need experts now to decide how they can reform the system
0:38:39 > 0:38:44and decide how they are going to react to the 999 calls.
0:38:44 > 0:38:48Then, hopefully, the same kind of things won't happen again.
0:38:48 > 0:38:51Keith Davis, you have an opportunity now to answer some of these
0:38:51 > 0:38:53points which were very critical of the Labour Government.
0:38:53 > 0:38:56I can tell you now, if you look at what people
0:38:56 > 0:39:00are generally saying about the health service in Wales, it's very good.
0:39:00 > 0:39:0398% of people think they've received very good treatment.
0:39:03 > 0:39:06They are talking about their personal circumstances
0:39:06 > 0:39:08but when they look at the service in its entirety,
0:39:08 > 0:39:11with then hear the kind of stories we heard from John Evans.
0:39:11 > 0:39:17Yes and that is why they are looking at the ambulance service to try and do something about it.
0:39:17 > 0:39:20But as Carol said, we have to ensure that the people
0:39:20 > 0:39:26who need emergency treatment can go in immediately and not wait outside.
0:39:26 > 0:39:29Because that is where we started, people having to wait outside in ambulances
0:39:29 > 0:39:32We have to do something about that.
0:39:32 > 0:39:35Thank you very much. It is time for us to take a short break.
0:39:35 > 0:39:38Join us again in two minutes when we will be talking about rugby.
0:39:38 > 0:39:40Join us again in Pontardawe in two minutes.
0:39:56 > 0:39:59Welcome back. It's nice to have your company on this Thursday evening.
0:39:59 > 0:40:01We are in Pontardawe.
0:40:01 > 0:40:06Let's move on to a question that is as timely as it could be from Euros Morgan.
0:40:06 > 0:40:09This afternoon, it was announced that Leigh Halfpenny
0:40:09 > 0:40:13is the latest rugby player to join the Welsh exodus to France.
0:40:13 > 0:40:17What does this say about the state of the game in Wales?
0:40:17 > 0:40:20Euros is referring to he main sports story of the day.
0:40:20 > 0:40:24Leigh Halfpenny is the latest rugby player to join the Welsh exodus to France.
0:40:24 > 0:40:27What does this say about the state of the game in Wales?
0:40:27 > 0:40:31As a big supporter, Carol, what is your opinion on this?
0:40:31 > 0:40:34I think we can go straight to the answer.
0:40:34 > 0:40:36What it says about the state of rugby in Wales
0:40:36 > 0:40:41is that not enough people go and watch matches live in the grounds.
0:40:41 > 0:40:44That's the reason they can pay in France.
0:40:44 > 0:40:50- I was watching Clermont play a club from Paris...- Racing.- Yes.
0:40:50 > 0:40:53Last Saturday. The place was full.
0:40:53 > 0:40:57The place was full. How often do our clubs get support like that?
0:40:57 > 0:41:01That's why they can pay. The answer is very simple.
0:41:01 > 0:41:05The answer is simple but take it a step further. Why don't people go and watch?
0:41:05 > 0:41:08That is a very interesting question because, of course,
0:41:08 > 0:41:13we support the international team and we all turn up to watch.
0:41:13 > 0:41:16But on a wet Friday night,
0:41:16 > 0:41:20how many of us are willing to go out and watch the teams?
0:41:20 > 0:41:25Something has happened and I have a theory about it.
0:41:25 > 0:41:30Our relationship with the clubs is not as close as it used to be.
0:41:30 > 0:41:32So this new system does not appeal.
0:41:32 > 0:41:34My father played for Neath.
0:41:34 > 0:41:38When you merge Neath and Swansea to create the Ospreys,
0:41:38 > 0:41:42those two clubs were completely different.
0:41:42 > 0:41:45There may as well be a continent missing
0:41:45 > 0:41:49somewhere outside Briton Ferry between the two places!
0:41:49 > 0:41:52So you think it was a mistake?
0:41:52 > 0:41:56We are where we are and there's also a civil war
0:41:56 > 0:42:01going on between the regions and the union at the moment.
0:42:01 > 0:42:04That is a factor but I don't think that is the most important thing.
0:42:04 > 0:42:08I think the most important thing is that these boys can only play for certain number of years
0:42:08 > 0:42:13and they have to think about their own futures and it is their personal choice to go
0:42:13 > 0:42:17and earn a lot of money in France in order to secure their futures.
0:42:17 > 0:42:20Fair enough. Keith Davies, what is the problem and what is the answer?
0:42:20 > 0:42:24First of all, it's obvious that Welsh rugby players are among
0:42:24 > 0:42:28the best in the world and that is why they are going to France.
0:42:28 > 0:42:32The problem we have, I disagree with Carol here,
0:42:32 > 0:42:34because the problem we have is in France
0:42:34 > 0:42:38and England big companies invest money into the rugby clubs.
0:42:40 > 0:42:42Michelin back Clermont.
0:42:42 > 0:42:46One boy is leaving the Scarlets, I won't name him,
0:42:46 > 0:42:51but he was offered £250,000 to stay with the Scarlets
0:42:51 > 0:42:54but Clermont trebled it.
0:42:54 > 0:42:56Why aren't we naming him?
0:42:56 > 0:43:01- We all know who he is. Who is the best in the world?- Jonathan Davies.
0:43:01 > 0:43:03Yes. The best player in the world.
0:43:03 > 0:43:07I was talking to Gareth Edwards about this last week.
0:43:07 > 0:43:08He was in the Assembly with us.
0:43:08 > 0:43:13I was telling him that my personal opinion is that the Welsh Rugby Union,
0:43:13 > 0:43:19last year and the year before, made a profit of over £60 million.
0:43:19 > 0:43:22I think they have to work with the regions.
0:43:22 > 0:43:24- But it's not happening, is it?- No.
0:43:24 > 0:43:27But it needs to happen because that is what happens in New Zealand
0:43:27 > 0:43:29and that is what happens in Ireland.
0:43:29 > 0:43:32I think it is down to the Welsh Rugby Union.
0:43:32 > 0:43:34The regions do not generate this huge money.
0:43:34 > 0:43:36But Carol's point is right as well, isn't it?
0:43:36 > 0:43:41It doesn't change the fact that to be sustainable
0:43:41 > 0:43:43people have to go and watch them live.
0:43:43 > 0:43:46But maybe the crowd isn't there.
0:43:46 > 0:43:50We're talking about Llanelli and that is a small town compared to somewhere like Paris.
0:43:50 > 0:43:54Come on, audience. Arwel Michael?
0:43:54 > 0:43:58About people going to watch games on weekends,
0:43:58 > 0:44:02the quality of the play has been dreadful.
0:44:02 > 0:44:07It is amazing that our national team is doing so well.
0:44:07 > 0:44:11I watch the games and see how poorly they are playing these days
0:44:11 > 0:44:14compared to Ireland, and the teams in Ireland,
0:44:14 > 0:44:17and it is embarrassing to see the way they are playing these days.
0:44:17 > 0:44:20- But why is that?- I don't know.
0:44:20 > 0:44:24There is something sad in the game that we can have such a good
0:44:24 > 0:44:26national team and yet the regions
0:44:26 > 0:44:30and the Welsh Rugby Union are fighting against each other.
0:44:30 > 0:44:32It reflects what we're like as a nation.
0:44:32 > 0:44:36We fight against each other and we don't work together.
0:44:36 > 0:44:39A very fair point. There was another hand up there.
0:44:39 > 0:44:44We have to remember that Wales is not the only country in this situation.
0:44:44 > 0:44:47If you look at the Premier League,
0:44:47 > 0:44:51most of the players come from foreign countries.
0:44:51 > 0:44:57Here in Swansea with Swansea City, most of the players like Jonathan de Guzman and Michu
0:44:57 > 0:45:00have moved from Europe to play here in Britain.
0:45:00 > 0:45:03They come from countries like Spain,
0:45:03 > 0:45:06which is world-famous for the standard of its football.
0:45:06 > 0:45:09So I don't think the fact that a few players have moved from Wales
0:45:09 > 0:45:13to play in Europe is a negative reflection on the standard.
0:45:13 > 0:45:17And you don't think the game in Wales will deteriorate as a result?
0:45:17 > 0:45:21No, because if you have been to the Millennium Stadium, it is jampacked.
0:45:21 > 0:45:25At the moment, some would say. What about you in the front row?
0:45:25 > 0:45:28I don't see too much of a problem myself.
0:45:28 > 0:45:31To answer Euros' question, the answer is the regions do not
0:45:31 > 0:45:34have enough money to compete in the professional world.
0:45:34 > 0:45:36But I don't think we should worry too much
0:45:36 > 0:45:39because as the last person said, in the Premier League,
0:45:39 > 0:45:42people from all countries, Ukraine, Russia, play there,
0:45:42 > 0:45:46but when it comes to the World Cup, their international teams are very strong.
0:45:46 > 0:45:48If you think about rugby in Argentina.
0:45:48 > 0:45:52I'm not sure how much rugby is played in Argentina but most of their best players play in Europe.
0:45:52 > 0:45:55They are still the sixth or seventh best team in the world
0:45:55 > 0:45:58and I think we can maintain our standard.
0:45:58 > 0:46:00Who do you support?
0:46:00 > 0:46:04My heart is with the Scarlets but my head is with the ospreys.
0:46:04 > 0:46:05Right. There we are!
0:46:05 > 0:46:08Very interesting. Euros, what about it?
0:46:11 > 0:46:14- It is a bit of a mess. - Yes, but I agree with Huw.
0:46:14 > 0:46:22I am sure the teams will continue to succeed without these players,
0:46:22 > 0:46:25but it's very difficult.
0:46:25 > 0:46:28What about you?
0:46:28 > 0:46:32The main reason they are moving is money.
0:46:32 > 0:46:35They want a good future
0:46:35 > 0:46:40because the money in Wales is not as high as it has been.
0:46:40 > 0:46:45As a rugby player, I think it's the team that's important.
0:46:47 > 0:46:51It's important they are together as a team and work together.
0:46:51 > 0:46:57It's nothing to do with him moving. It is a matter for him. Nobody else.
0:46:57 > 0:47:00And you in the front row?
0:47:00 > 0:47:03I think it is a huge loss for the regions
0:47:03 > 0:47:08but it's a chance for the young players to step in.
0:47:08 > 0:47:13- They now have an opportunity to show their talent.- Fair enough.
0:47:13 > 0:47:15Euron Richards?
0:47:15 > 0:47:18It is obvious that these people are going for the money.
0:47:18 > 0:47:23But by going to these countries, their experience improves
0:47:23 > 0:47:26and when they come back to play for Wales,
0:47:26 > 0:47:28they should be better players.
0:47:28 > 0:47:30The difference in Ireland is,
0:47:30 > 0:47:33three of Ireland's players during the last few weeks,
0:47:33 > 0:47:39Jamie Heaslip, Paul O'Connell and Sean O'Brien, have re-signed
0:47:39 > 0:47:41and they have central contracts.
0:47:41 > 0:47:43Do you see that as an answer for Wales?
0:47:43 > 0:47:46It is part of the answer. There is no single answer. It's part of it.
0:47:46 > 0:47:48We haven't got that in Wales
0:47:48 > 0:47:51and the Welsh Rugby Union should have done it a while ago.
0:47:51 > 0:47:55Matthew, you were eager to say something.
0:47:55 > 0:47:59The point is, we should invest in schools and young people
0:47:59 > 0:48:03and I would like to see some of that money,
0:48:03 > 0:48:06that Keith was talking about, that the WRU is sitting on
0:48:06 > 0:48:08invested in young people and in the future of Wales
0:48:08 > 0:48:13instead of having a discussion about these big names.
0:48:13 > 0:48:15Suzy and Gwynedd. Suzy first.
0:48:15 > 0:48:20I just want to take up that point because rugby these days
0:48:20 > 0:48:23is a career for the stars and it is not a matter of honour.
0:48:23 > 0:48:27What is starting to worry me
0:48:27 > 0:48:30is the spat that has started between the regions and the WRU.
0:48:30 > 0:48:33It has been going on for quite a while.
0:48:33 > 0:48:36I know that, but what kind of effect is it going to have on young
0:48:36 > 0:48:39boys and girls who have an interest in rugby?
0:48:39 > 0:48:42Almost half a billion goes into grassroots rugby
0:48:42 > 0:48:44and I don't want it to be wasted.
0:48:44 > 0:48:46Gwynedd Parry?
0:48:46 > 0:48:48I am not an expert on this
0:48:48 > 0:48:51but I've seen for myself the difference between the support
0:48:51 > 0:48:55for the Swans at the Liberty Stadium and the support for the Ospreys.
0:48:55 > 0:48:59So there is a cultural problem, as Carol suggested.
0:48:59 > 0:49:02People don't turn up to support the clubs despite the fact
0:49:02 > 0:49:05they flock to Cardiff for the international games.
0:49:05 > 0:49:07I'm not quite sure what the reason is for that.
0:49:07 > 0:49:11- Is it to do with the occasion and so on?- I think it is.
0:49:11 > 0:49:16Is it real love for the game or do people like the occasion and the culture?
0:49:16 > 0:49:20We could go on for another hour on this subject.
0:49:20 > 0:49:24We should have a special Pawb a'i Farn on rugby, don't you think?
0:49:24 > 0:49:28Anyway, thank you for your company tonight and your contributions.
0:49:28 > 0:49:31Next week, we will be in Llangefni. I hope you can join us then.
0:49:31 > 0:49:33But for now, from Pontardawe, goodbye.