0:00:24 > 0:00:26On our panel this evening,
0:00:26 > 0:00:29the chair of Cymdeithas Yr Iaith, Robin Farrar,
0:00:29 > 0:00:32the former Labour MP, Betty Williams,
0:00:32 > 0:00:36Anglesey AM and Plaid Cymru's spokesperson on the economy,
0:00:36 > 0:00:38Rhun ap Iorwerth,
0:00:38 > 0:00:44and the GP Harri Pritchard, who was a star of the series Jabas.
0:00:44 > 0:00:46Give them a warm welcome.
0:00:46 > 0:00:48APPLAUSE
0:00:59 > 0:01:03Good evening and welcome to this week's edition of Pawb a'i Farn.
0:01:03 > 0:01:07We hope you can join us for the next hour on S4C.
0:01:07 > 0:01:10I'm confident it will be a lively hour.
0:01:10 > 0:01:15Audiences in Anglesey aren't shy or reserved.
0:01:15 > 0:01:18We're broadcasting from Llangefni and people have come
0:01:18 > 0:01:21from all over the island to Plas Arthur Leisure Centre.
0:01:21 > 0:01:26We hope you're happy with the questions we've chosen.
0:01:26 > 0:01:28Next Thursday, we'll be in Crymych
0:01:28 > 0:01:31and the people of Pembrokeshire can have their say.
0:01:31 > 0:01:34Then we'll be in Aberystwyth.
0:01:34 > 0:01:37Don't forget our usual addresses to get in touch.
0:01:37 > 0:01:43What is our first question? It comes from Peter Williams at the back.
0:01:43 > 0:01:44What's your question?
0:01:44 > 0:01:47Do the panel think Anglesey and Gwynedd
0:01:47 > 0:01:50would be better off together and it would save money?
0:01:50 > 0:01:53Excellent. The question about merging Gwynedd and Anglesey.
0:01:53 > 0:01:58Would that save money? I'll start with you, Rhun ap Iorwerth.
0:01:58 > 0:02:01There are some interesting ideas in this report
0:02:01 > 0:02:04from the Williams Commission.
0:02:04 > 0:02:07What's important to me and everyone in this room, I assume,
0:02:07 > 0:02:12is that we consider carefully what the implications
0:02:12 > 0:02:16of merging Anglesey and Gwynedd would be
0:02:16 > 0:02:18for the people of Anglesey.
0:02:18 > 0:02:25That means, if there's a suggestion this would save money
0:02:25 > 0:02:28to allow us to provide better services,
0:02:28 > 0:02:34we need to look at the figures to see where the money would be saved
0:02:34 > 0:02:37and how we would benefit from that.
0:02:37 > 0:02:39As a matter of principle,
0:02:39 > 0:02:42I do feel that it was a mistake
0:02:42 > 0:02:48to create 22 county councils in a country as small as Wales.
0:02:48 > 0:02:51So it was a mistake to have Anglesey on its own?
0:02:51 > 0:02:55It was a mistake to have Anglesey on its own back then?
0:02:55 > 0:02:58We don't need to look at individual parts of Wales,
0:02:58 > 0:03:03but as a total number of local authorities, it was too many,
0:03:03 > 0:03:06and we need to look at that again.
0:03:06 > 0:03:10But what we don't want to do is come back in another 20 years
0:03:10 > 0:03:14because what is offered and, possibly, implemented now,
0:03:14 > 0:03:17isn't sustainable in the long-term.
0:03:17 > 0:03:21That's why we shouldn't rush to say "yes" or "no"
0:03:21 > 0:03:23and we should look at the implications.
0:03:23 > 0:03:27This is a commission launched by Labour.
0:03:27 > 0:03:30They set the guidelines for the commission,
0:03:30 > 0:03:33although there are cross-party members.
0:03:33 > 0:03:36Labour have to give their response before we can decide
0:03:36 > 0:03:39what we feel is right way forward as a party.
0:03:39 > 0:03:42- So you're on the fence? - There's no fence.
0:03:42 > 0:03:46We don't have the information to make a decision.
0:03:46 > 0:03:47The Williams Commission...
0:03:47 > 0:03:50But if 22 councils are too many,
0:03:50 > 0:03:54it stands to reason that you want to merge some of them.
0:03:54 > 0:03:58If you look across Wales, Anglesey and Gwynedd tick many boxes
0:03:58 > 0:04:03in terms of language, they're similar in many ways,
0:04:03 > 0:04:06and it makes sense in many ways,
0:04:06 > 0:04:10but we want better services and better value for money.
0:04:10 > 0:04:14- Betty Williams.- The purpose of local government is to serve the public.
0:04:14 > 0:04:18That should be the priority for anyone making a decision on this.
0:04:18 > 0:04:22I think the Williams Commission has done some excellent work.
0:04:22 > 0:04:26I'm not related to Mr Williams, by the way.
0:04:26 > 0:04:28But that's the priority.
0:04:28 > 0:04:31I look back and, maybe I'm wrong...
0:04:31 > 0:04:36Have any of you three ever been councillors?
0:04:36 > 0:04:39I might be the only one with that experience.
0:04:39 > 0:04:43- And that was the old Gwynedd. - That was going to be my point.
0:04:43 > 0:04:49Serving people isn't changing boundaries and changing names,
0:04:49 > 0:04:51it's more than that.
0:04:51 > 0:04:55In the end, it's important that the people who put themselves forward
0:04:55 > 0:04:59to be councillors have a healthy attitude
0:04:59 > 0:05:02and the right motives.
0:05:02 > 0:05:07I don't like this Cabinet system because it's not democratic.
0:05:07 > 0:05:11The council's backbenchers as they are now,
0:05:11 > 0:05:15in Gwynedd and Anglesey, they don't have as much of a voice
0:05:15 > 0:05:19and so they can't represent their constituencies.
0:05:19 > 0:05:22When I was a member of the old Gwynedd Council in 1976,
0:05:22 > 0:05:27we didn't get the big salaries councillors get these days
0:05:27 > 0:05:32and that's what I mean when I talk about the motive of individuals.
0:05:32 > 0:05:36But, in principle, you think it's a good idea.
0:05:36 > 0:05:40Yes, because, at that time, you had five class councils.
0:05:40 > 0:05:44- Did they work? Did the old Gwynedd work?- Yes.
0:05:44 > 0:05:46I had two hats. I was on both.
0:05:46 > 0:05:49- But the old Gwynedd worked? - I think it did.
0:05:49 > 0:05:53In Anglesey, he people who say Anglesey would lose out,
0:05:53 > 0:05:59at that time you had hard-working people like the late Handel Morgan
0:05:59 > 0:06:01and Captain Alex Robinson.
0:06:01 > 0:06:04- You're suggesting the standards have dropped?- Alan Pritchard...
0:06:04 > 0:06:08- I'm not saying that. - You're suggesting we're not as good.
0:06:08 > 0:06:11But it worked. You needed one director of education
0:06:11 > 0:06:15so you had a education policies across a broad area,
0:06:15 > 0:06:17not small areas.
0:06:17 > 0:06:20I know we have councillors in the audience.
0:06:20 > 0:06:23Their hands are in the air already.
0:06:23 > 0:06:26- Aled Morris Jones. - I think it would be a mistake.
0:06:26 > 0:06:29When you look at the Williams Report,
0:06:29 > 0:06:33you can see that it represents Wales as a whole, not small communities.
0:06:33 > 0:06:38They want to create structures which are not close to the people.
0:06:38 > 0:06:41Things are getting better on Anglesey
0:06:41 > 0:06:44with many economic projects about to arrive
0:06:44 > 0:06:48and the people of Anglesey should be making the decision.
0:06:48 > 0:06:51- Gwynedd...- But the suggestion is that Anglesey is too small.
0:06:51 > 0:06:54But Gwynedd, from Amlwch to Aberdovey
0:06:54 > 0:06:56would be almost 100 miles.
0:06:56 > 0:07:00They're refusing to create the old Dyfed because it's too big
0:07:00 > 0:07:02and it wouldn't work.
0:07:02 > 0:07:04- Anglesey...- It is an option.
0:07:04 > 0:07:07But they won't put it forward.
0:07:07 > 0:07:11Anglesey looks after its council houses, Gwynedd doesn't.
0:07:11 > 0:07:15Council houses belong in the hands of the county council.
0:07:15 > 0:07:17Where were the other hands? Yes.
0:07:17 > 0:07:22Does making an area bigger mean you'll get better services?
0:07:22 > 0:07:26Look at the health authority.
0:07:26 > 0:07:30Look at the elderly, look at ambulances.
0:07:30 > 0:07:32Look at energy companies.
0:07:32 > 0:07:36They have been given too much space and freedom.
0:07:36 > 0:07:39We want a closer relationship.
0:07:39 > 0:07:42Did that work on Anglesey?
0:07:42 > 0:07:46There were all kinds of problems. You had to call people in.
0:07:46 > 0:07:49But you can go straight to the problem.
0:07:49 > 0:07:53If you go on the phone, you end up talking to someone in India!
0:07:53 > 0:07:56There are two hands up in the back row.
0:07:56 > 0:07:58The young lady, first.
0:07:58 > 0:08:00I'm very disappointed with your comments.
0:08:00 > 0:08:03As Anglesey's youngest councillor,
0:08:03 > 0:08:07what you just said on behalf of other councillors in Wales
0:08:07 > 0:08:13would put young people off standing as councillors.
0:08:13 > 0:08:16We've got fresh, young candidates in Anglesey
0:08:16 > 0:08:20and I don't feel we get the chance to represent our country
0:08:20 > 0:08:23and I'm very disappointed as a young mother, a young woman,
0:08:23 > 0:08:27who put herself forward to be a fresh councillor
0:08:27 > 0:08:29and you think I'm here for the money. I'm disappointed.
0:08:29 > 0:08:31APPLAUSE
0:08:33 > 0:08:35Thank you.
0:08:35 > 0:08:38Will you answer the question, too? Gwynedd and Anglesey together?
0:08:38 > 0:08:41Personally, on behalf of Anglesey,
0:08:41 > 0:08:44I think it is important that we stay as Anglesey...
0:08:44 > 0:08:46And you represent which party?
0:08:46 > 0:08:49- Plaid Cymru.- How about you?
0:08:49 > 0:08:54Plaid Cymru. The truth is, no-one whether this will save money.
0:08:54 > 0:08:58There's no evidence in the Williams Report.
0:08:58 > 0:09:01But the residents of Anglesey will lose out
0:09:01 > 0:09:03because the maths is simple.
0:09:03 > 0:09:06I don't agree with Betty Williams.
0:09:06 > 0:09:10You have 30 councillors on Anglesey, 75 in Gwynedd.
0:09:10 > 0:09:14When decisions are made about sharing resources,
0:09:14 > 0:09:17the large majority of resources will cross the Menai.
0:09:17 > 0:09:20So you're both from Plaid Cymru
0:09:20 > 0:09:24and you refuse to merge with a council run by Plaid Cymru.
0:09:24 > 0:09:29The most important thing is what's best for the people of Anglesey.
0:09:29 > 0:09:31That's why we were elected.
0:09:31 > 0:09:34Those are the reasons I stood as a councillor.
0:09:34 > 0:09:37The people of Anglesey are what's important.
0:09:37 > 0:09:41Gareth Jones of Labour in the front here.
0:09:41 > 0:09:45- Consider this for ten seconds... - Just ten seconds? Is that all?
0:09:45 > 0:09:47That's all we need.
0:09:47 > 0:09:50We've been there before and it didn't work.
0:09:50 > 0:09:53Anglesey got a raw deal.
0:09:53 > 0:09:57You disagree with Betty Williams. It didn't work.
0:09:57 > 0:10:00Betty was on the council but from what I remember,
0:10:00 > 0:10:03and I worked for Gwynedd Council,
0:10:03 > 0:10:05we got a raw deal.
0:10:05 > 0:10:08What is this raw deal, then?
0:10:08 > 0:10:12Well, from what I saw, everything was spent in Caernarfon
0:10:12 > 0:10:15and nothing was coming to the island.
0:10:15 > 0:10:18The people of Meirionnydd would say the same.
0:10:18 > 0:10:21- They do.- John Chorlton. - They do say that.
0:10:21 > 0:10:24They money went to the centre and the centre was Caernarfon.
0:10:24 > 0:10:26We lost out.
0:10:26 > 0:10:30I had the experience of being on Anglesey Council
0:10:30 > 0:10:33and I worked for Gwynedd Council.
0:10:33 > 0:10:35I worked for the Fire Service.
0:10:35 > 0:10:39I started with a suit from Hepworth, but at Gwynedd I put it in the bin.
0:10:39 > 0:10:41Honest. That's what happened.
0:10:41 > 0:10:44They took all the money.
0:10:44 > 0:10:45Gareth.
0:10:45 > 0:10:49What's important, and they've started saying it,
0:10:49 > 0:10:52is to work with other councils.
0:10:52 > 0:10:54That's a good thing.
0:10:54 > 0:10:56And I also think...
0:10:56 > 0:11:01We've just spent a fortune on the multi-member wards election
0:11:01 > 0:11:04but they haven't had a chance to prove themselves.
0:11:04 > 0:11:07These farmers should remember what they did to small farms on Anglesey.
0:11:07 > 0:11:12They stole the money to spend in Gwynedd on roads and so on.
0:11:12 > 0:11:15What about people listening and watching Pawb a'i Farn tonight
0:11:15 > 0:11:17who remember those problems,
0:11:17 > 0:11:20has this small Anglesey worked?
0:11:20 > 0:11:24Councillors and services are different things.
0:11:24 > 0:11:27We're talking about services for the people
0:11:27 > 0:11:29and what we've lost.
0:11:29 > 0:11:32- One row back. - Very interesting.
0:11:32 > 0:11:36Would the gentleman who asked the question have asked the question
0:11:36 > 0:11:38if he'd been elected?
0:11:38 > 0:11:41That's a fair question. I'll come back to that.
0:11:41 > 0:11:43The hand here.
0:11:43 > 0:11:46Wait for the microphone.
0:11:46 > 0:11:49Labour and Plaid agree with each other.
0:11:49 > 0:11:50There are...
0:11:50 > 0:11:55I'm not so sure. Betty Williams is in favour and Rhun hasn't decided.
0:11:55 > 0:11:58There's an advantage for Plaid Cymru here,
0:11:58 > 0:12:04with the restructuring, because it would be a stronger party.
0:12:04 > 0:12:06If it merged with Gwynedd, that is.
0:12:06 > 0:12:11But do the Plaid Cymru councillors and Labour, too,
0:12:11 > 0:12:13but Plaid Cymru in particular,
0:12:13 > 0:12:16from reading the Daily Post this morning,
0:12:16 > 0:12:21would feel like small fish in a big pond if they merged with Gwynedd?
0:12:21 > 0:12:23Good question.
0:12:23 > 0:12:26Peter, you asked the question.
0:12:26 > 0:12:28There's an accusation against you here.
0:12:28 > 0:12:31If you'd been elected, you'd have a different view.
0:12:31 > 0:12:35They duplicate a lot of things, like head of education.
0:12:35 > 0:12:37Too many bosses.
0:12:37 > 0:12:40Too much is spent on that. Alright.
0:12:40 > 0:12:42It's common sense.
0:12:42 > 0:12:45That would save money. Bob Parry.
0:12:45 > 0:12:48May I refer to Llinos, the youngest councillor on Anglesey?
0:12:48 > 0:12:54Young people would see Caernarfon as the headquarters
0:12:54 > 0:12:56and it's too far away.
0:12:56 > 0:13:01Betty said there's a good salary. It's not that high.
0:13:01 > 0:13:04But you are looking for people to work all day.
0:13:04 > 0:13:08If you want to travel from Conwy to Caernarfon,
0:13:08 > 0:13:10you need an hour and a half.
0:13:10 > 0:13:14You'll get people who are retired and young people won't apply.
0:13:14 > 0:13:17And we have some good young people on Anglesey.
0:13:17 > 0:13:20They wouldn't travel to Caernarfon?
0:13:20 > 0:13:25No. As John Chorlton said, they stole money
0:13:25 > 0:13:29and that's why payments have been in such a mess.
0:13:29 > 0:13:33I think this man is right that Labour and Plaid Cymru agree.
0:13:34 > 0:13:37On the island you are? Right.
0:13:37 > 0:13:40You can have a second to think about that
0:13:40 > 0:13:43while I talk to the other panellists. Robin Farrar.
0:13:43 > 0:13:48We disagree with the way the Welsh Government is centralising
0:13:48 > 0:13:51services more and more.
0:13:51 > 0:13:54Councils have an important role to play.
0:13:54 > 0:13:57They're meant to be democratic.
0:13:57 > 0:14:00Important planning decisions are made.
0:14:00 > 0:14:04It's important that people involved in those decisions
0:14:04 > 0:14:09work with local people who understand local issues.
0:14:09 > 0:14:12We think this is going in the wrong direction.
0:14:12 > 0:14:16They should be strengthening the lowest level of democracy
0:14:16 > 0:14:19so that we have councils town councils and community councils
0:14:19 > 0:14:22which make decisions.
0:14:22 > 0:14:26Wouldn't democracy lead to more bureaucracy?
0:14:26 > 0:14:28No. No, it wouldn't.
0:14:28 > 0:14:32I think the smallest councils
0:14:32 > 0:14:36should have a voice in planning applications.
0:14:36 > 0:14:39In terms of Gwynedd and Anglesey specifically,
0:14:39 > 0:14:42it's a good thing that we're not talking about
0:14:42 > 0:14:45one authority for North Wales.
0:14:45 > 0:14:48That was being considered.
0:14:48 > 0:14:51- Some are in favour of that. - It was discussed.
0:14:51 > 0:14:54That would be terrible for the Welsh language.
0:14:54 > 0:14:59The language needs of this island are different to Wrexham and so on.
0:14:59 > 0:15:01But not different from Gwynedd.
0:15:01 > 0:15:03Well, that's what we're coming to.
0:15:03 > 0:15:06If things go down this route
0:15:06 > 0:15:10there are possible advantages.
0:15:10 > 0:15:15If the political will and desire was there
0:15:15 > 0:15:18to move towards a council for Anglesey,
0:15:18 > 0:15:21- and it was part of Gwynedd or not... - Doesn't sound like that tonight.
0:15:21 > 0:15:24..that worked internally in the Welsh language,
0:15:24 > 0:15:27because Gwynedd Council's internal language policy
0:15:27 > 0:15:30- has been a strength. - Dr Harry Pritchard.
0:15:30 > 0:15:34Without being parochial, I've lived on Anglesey for 15 years
0:15:34 > 0:15:38but I was born and raised in Gwynedd.
0:15:38 > 0:15:40You'll be in favour then.
0:15:40 > 0:15:43To the contrary. I oppose this totally.
0:15:43 > 0:15:47The main reason for that is image and branding is very important
0:15:47 > 0:15:49to these councils now.
0:15:49 > 0:15:53If we were to merge, we'd have to rebrand, have a new image
0:15:53 > 0:15:56and a lot of money will be spent on this.
0:15:56 > 0:16:00The Williams Commission said it would cost around £100 million.
0:16:00 > 0:16:02That's a lot of money.
0:16:02 > 0:16:05But it will be £200 million when they finish.
0:16:05 > 0:16:07- The councils think it will be 200. - Exactly.
0:16:07 > 0:16:11We're going to waste that money at a time we need it more than ever.
0:16:11 > 0:16:15Fine, we're going to save money five or six years down the line,
0:16:15 > 0:16:18we don't need it then, but today.
0:16:18 > 0:16:23The people of Anglesey want the money now not in six years' time.
0:16:23 > 0:16:27On top of that, I also believe
0:16:27 > 0:16:32very strongly that resources should be shared.
0:16:32 > 0:16:37What's going to happen if we merge? We'll be split into three areas.
0:16:37 > 0:16:41Those areas are going to take more and more resources.
0:16:41 > 0:16:43We're not going to save any money.
0:16:43 > 0:16:48But as this gentleman said, there's too much doubling of resources.
0:16:48 > 0:16:50Exactly. But what we need to do is,
0:16:50 > 0:16:54there are many policies and plans that could be shared.
0:16:54 > 0:16:56This already happens with Anglesey and Gwynedd
0:16:56 > 0:16:58when it comes to planning.
0:16:58 > 0:17:01I'm sure there are other policies that all these authorities
0:17:01 > 0:17:04could cooperate to save money without having to rebrand
0:17:04 > 0:17:08and without losing all that money.
0:17:08 > 0:17:11You're against it. Audience, Trefor Lloyd Hughes.
0:17:13 > 0:17:15You look at Betsi Cadwaladr.
0:17:16 > 0:17:17What a mess.
0:17:17 > 0:17:20The Ambulance Service is in a mess.
0:17:20 > 0:17:23Colleges are in a mess.
0:17:23 > 0:17:24Everything goes to one place.
0:17:24 > 0:17:27We've been left with the mess.
0:17:27 > 0:17:29Because they're too big?
0:17:29 > 0:17:32Yes. When we left Anglesey and became Gwynedd before
0:17:32 > 0:17:36we had excellent services.
0:17:36 > 0:17:38The schools were in good condition.
0:17:38 > 0:17:41Once we joined Gwynedd, and all respect to people in Gwynedd,
0:17:41 > 0:17:44they gave all the money to schools in Gwynedd
0:17:44 > 0:17:47to raise those standards and we'll go down.
0:17:47 > 0:17:49Since then we've gone down.
0:17:49 > 0:17:53We have good educational services on Anglesey
0:17:53 > 0:17:55despite people saying to the contrary.
0:17:55 > 0:17:59But in the end, the bigger it is the fewer problems.
0:17:59 > 0:18:00I'll ask for a vote in a moment
0:18:00 > 0:18:03and Betty and Rhun can have a sentence each to close this.
0:18:03 > 0:18:06From my viewpoint what I've heard from the audience
0:18:06 > 0:18:09has confirmed everything I've said.
0:18:09 > 0:18:12Services and the type of services we get on Anglesey
0:18:12 > 0:18:16is all important. It's too early to decide one way or the other.
0:18:16 > 0:18:20Give me evidence why this would be a good idea.
0:18:20 > 0:18:23If you listen to your constituents you'll say no.
0:18:23 > 0:18:24We'll see with the vote. Betty?
0:18:24 > 0:18:29- One example...- Quickly.- I've listened to a young woman
0:18:29 > 0:18:34about being elected, but you feel you haven't accomplished anything.
0:18:34 > 0:18:37This is the point I'm making, because of this cabinet system,
0:18:37 > 0:18:40we need to get rid of this system to have true democracy
0:18:40 > 0:18:43on Anglesey, Gwynedd and any other council.
0:18:43 > 0:18:46- No, quickly. - I'll give you one example.
0:18:46 > 0:18:50Unless they have a Gwynedd and Clwyd as it used to be
0:18:50 > 0:18:53you wouldn't have had Ysgol y Creuddyn.
0:18:53 > 0:18:56Anti-Welsh councillors from Llandudno were working
0:18:56 > 0:19:00as a group, and it wasn't for the support of people from Anglesey
0:19:00 > 0:19:03and Meirionnydd and Dwyfor, the school wouldn't have been built.
0:19:03 > 0:19:06We need to move on. There are other topics to be discussed.
0:19:06 > 0:19:08But I'm holding a vote.
0:19:08 > 0:19:13Firstly, who would be in favour of merging Anglesey and Gwynedd?
0:19:15 > 0:19:16One! Two!
0:19:18 > 0:19:19Three.
0:19:20 > 0:19:23Well, for the television, let's see who's against.
0:19:25 > 0:19:27The majority but some abstaining.
0:19:27 > 0:19:28Excellent.
0:19:28 > 0:19:32We certainly know what the Pawb a'i Farn audience thinks.
0:19:32 > 0:19:34It's nice to have that opinion.
0:19:34 > 0:19:37Join us again in Llangefni after the break.
0:19:52 > 0:19:56Welcome back. You're watching Pawb a'i Farn from Llangefni.
0:19:56 > 0:20:00As I suggested, we're having a lively debate.
0:20:00 > 0:20:03The next question's asked by Mari Ann Jones. What's your question?
0:20:03 > 0:20:09Pylons are going to spoil the beautiful views on Anglesey.
0:20:10 > 0:20:14Wouldn't the answer be not to build a second power station
0:20:14 > 0:20:16in Wylfa?
0:20:16 > 0:20:21Thank you. Pylons are going to spoil the beautiful views on Anglesey.
0:20:21 > 0:20:25Wouldn't the answer be not to build a second power station in Wylfa?
0:20:25 > 0:20:30When it comes to our panellists, Hari Pritchard lives closest to Wylfa.
0:20:30 > 0:20:33I'm very fortunate. I live in Cemaes in a beautiful village.
0:20:33 > 0:20:36I live about half a mile away from Wylfa.
0:20:36 > 0:20:40I'm also a person who likes my computers.
0:20:40 > 0:20:43I like to use my television and I like to use energy
0:20:43 > 0:20:45just like everyone else here.
0:20:45 > 0:20:50The problem with that is we have to get our energy from somewhere.
0:20:50 > 0:20:54Wind energy has a role to play in that.
0:20:54 > 0:20:58On Anglesey we already have wind turbines.
0:20:58 > 0:21:00We also have Wylfa power station
0:21:00 > 0:21:02which is coming to the end of its life.
0:21:02 > 0:21:06The other option we have apart from nuclear is gas.
0:21:06 > 0:21:11That gas from Eastern Europe, from countries like Ukraine
0:21:11 > 0:21:14where there are currently huge problems.
0:21:16 > 0:21:19Do we want to be dependent on countries like this
0:21:19 > 0:21:21for our energy in the future?
0:21:21 > 0:21:25As a country we have a very difficult decision
0:21:25 > 0:21:28as to where we get the energy so we can continue to use computers,
0:21:28 > 0:21:30to cook and for lighting.
0:21:30 > 0:21:35We don't have much choice apart from going for nuclear energy.
0:21:35 > 0:21:38As you said, you live half an hour away from the power station
0:21:38 > 0:21:40and it doesn't worry you?
0:21:40 > 0:21:42No. I've been there for 15 years
0:21:42 > 0:21:45and I welcome a new Wylfa there as well.
0:21:45 > 0:21:48The area of Anglesey needs it.
0:21:48 > 0:21:51Our young people are leaving Anglesey,
0:21:51 > 0:21:52they're going to universities.
0:21:52 > 0:21:56They get their apprenticeships in Wylfa and go and work in Scotland.
0:21:56 > 0:21:59Harri, you've had two minutes. What about the pylons?
0:21:59 > 0:22:04If we are to be an energy island, the energy needs to be taken off
0:22:04 > 0:22:06the island somehow.
0:22:06 > 0:22:09Where I've been disappointed with this
0:22:09 > 0:22:13is that the company that will move it,
0:22:13 > 0:22:18the National Grid, has decided how they'll take energy off the island
0:22:18 > 0:22:22before asking the people what they'd prefer.
0:22:22 > 0:22:25That doesn't make sense. Here's your four options,
0:22:25 > 0:22:28but by the way, this is the one we're going for.
0:22:28 > 0:22:30That isn't fair at all.
0:22:30 > 0:22:35But if you want Wylfa, won't you have to put up with the pylons too?
0:22:35 > 0:22:37They're across Snowdonia.
0:22:37 > 0:22:39Maybe that is the only option
0:22:39 > 0:22:42but I think they have to be fair with the people of Anglesey
0:22:42 > 0:22:45and offer them all the options, cost all the options
0:22:45 > 0:22:49and give us a reason why they want to take it that way.
0:22:49 > 0:22:52- Robin Farrar.- When it comes to the pylons,
0:22:52 > 0:22:56I agree, they won't be creating electricity
0:22:56 > 0:22:59for the people of Anglesey in Wylfa
0:22:59 > 0:23:02or even with the wind turbines. That's why the pylons are needed.
0:23:02 > 0:23:06In that, the Westminster Government has the final say.
0:23:06 > 0:23:10They should be investing in underwater cabling
0:23:10 > 0:23:15if the electricity needs to be moved off the island.
0:23:15 > 0:23:17But in terms of Wylfa,
0:23:17 > 0:23:21the society's opinion has been clear,
0:23:21 > 0:23:23nuclear power isn't needed.
0:23:23 > 0:23:26Many countries are moving in another direction.
0:23:26 > 0:23:30What's needed in the long-term on an island like this
0:23:30 > 0:23:33is investing in jobs such as in green energy.
0:23:33 > 0:23:39- That will develop further.- But there are many wind turbines here.
0:23:39 > 0:23:41Harri Pritchard says that's not enough.
0:23:41 > 0:23:44Expertise needs to be created in that field.
0:23:44 > 0:23:47More jobs in that area need to be created here.
0:23:47 > 0:23:52But we need this energy, we need this energy
0:23:52 > 0:23:56immediately. Your scheme will take time.
0:23:56 > 0:23:59Who needs this energy now? Not the people of Anglesey.
0:23:59 > 0:24:01We all need this energy now.
0:24:01 > 0:24:07What are we going to do in the winter when it hits minus ten
0:24:07 > 0:24:10and there isn't a breath of wind.
0:24:10 > 0:24:13Where's our energy going to come from that night?
0:24:13 > 0:24:17Yes, wind energy is important but we need some other type of energy.
0:24:17 > 0:24:21If you can find another kind of energy that'll work in all weathers
0:24:21 > 0:24:26and will be easy to get, great, we're all in favour of it.
0:24:26 > 0:24:29But at the moment our options are very limited.
0:24:29 > 0:24:32There are plenty of options.
0:24:32 > 0:24:35We're not talking about wind energy but also energy from the sea
0:24:35 > 0:24:37and solar energy.
0:24:37 > 0:24:40We need to limit the amount of electricity that's being used.
0:24:40 > 0:24:42These are world-wide matters.
0:24:42 > 0:24:44We have to deal with them.
0:24:44 > 0:24:48There isn't just one answer.
0:24:48 > 0:24:51But you're definitely against it?
0:24:51 > 0:24:54You're against the second power station?
0:24:54 > 0:24:59This isn't why as Cymdeithas we've made a clear statement.
0:24:59 > 0:25:04New developments with Wylfa
0:25:04 > 0:25:06would have a negative effect on the island's communities,
0:25:06 > 0:25:09on the language here.
0:25:09 > 0:25:11The right type of developments, for example,
0:25:11 > 0:25:14creating jobs on a smaller level,
0:25:14 > 0:25:18more development but fewer...as is possible in the green sector,
0:25:18 > 0:25:20would create the same amount of jobs
0:25:20 > 0:25:23but wouldn't have that negative impact.
0:25:23 > 0:25:26Rhun ap Iorwerth, does the language situation worry you?
0:25:26 > 0:25:29You are in favour of the second station.
0:25:29 > 0:25:32It's one of the matters, I feel, that hasn't been considered fully
0:25:32 > 0:25:35by the local authority here on Anglesey.
0:25:35 > 0:25:38My opinion on Wylfa is known.
0:25:38 > 0:25:41Economic advantages can come from Wylfa.
0:25:41 > 0:25:45We have to be less willing to tell any developer
0:25:45 > 0:25:48that comes in, "Come in and do as you like"
0:25:48 > 0:25:51without thinking about what's good for us as an island.
0:25:51 > 0:25:54The language is one of them as well as the pylons.
0:25:54 > 0:25:58I think it's important to disassociate both things.
0:25:58 > 0:26:01Wylfa is one debate, the pylons is another.
0:26:01 > 0:26:04It's one of those conditions where we on Anglesey
0:26:04 > 0:26:08turn to the developers, the people making money from this
0:26:08 > 0:26:11and say, we have our requests on Anglesey and one of them is
0:26:11 > 0:26:15you can't erect pylons across Anglesey.
0:26:15 > 0:26:19They do have to invest more in placing underwater cabling...
0:26:19 > 0:26:21Are they going to listen?
0:26:21 > 0:26:24They've already done it when it comes to the technology.
0:26:24 > 0:26:29The National Grid would do it if the Westminster government tells them.
0:26:29 > 0:26:34It's going to cost a lot more but do we care that it will cost more?
0:26:34 > 0:26:39No. People right across Britain will benefit from this.
0:26:39 > 0:26:42You're talking about a 60 year investment for 60 million people
0:26:42 > 0:26:44so the cost would be minimal.
0:26:44 > 0:26:46Betty Williams.
0:26:46 > 0:26:49We were talking about Anglesey's positives earlier
0:26:49 > 0:26:52and I believe Anglesey Councils backs a new Wylfa
0:26:52 > 0:26:54if I've got my facts right.
0:26:54 > 0:26:56Let's clear that up first.
0:26:56 > 0:26:59As to the pylons, I totally agree
0:26:59 > 0:27:04that they shouldn't be across the island or across the Strait.
0:27:04 > 0:27:08In the long-term, I think it is a shame the consultation process
0:27:08 > 0:27:11has ended, about 12 months ago,
0:27:11 > 0:27:15and no comments have been published following that.
0:27:17 > 0:27:22Can I just finish. It isn't a matter just for you on Anglesey.
0:27:22 > 0:27:24It's of interest to people on the mainland.
0:27:24 > 0:27:27It's a campaign for both sides.
0:27:27 > 0:27:29We should be cooperating in this.
0:27:29 > 0:27:32I know that Albert and Rhun are cooperating on this
0:27:32 > 0:27:35to have a suitable answer.
0:27:35 > 0:27:37We're not just talking about a new Wylfa here,
0:27:37 > 0:27:41you have plans for the sea, plans for wind turbines.
0:27:41 > 0:27:46We're talking about more than just Wylfa to carry the electricity.
0:27:46 > 0:27:49The nature of the consultation is very important.
0:27:49 > 0:27:53As Harri said, it's a consultation on different paths on Anglesey.
0:27:53 > 0:27:56It isn't a consultation for placing cables under the sea.
0:27:56 > 0:27:58Why didn't they consult on underwater cabling?
0:27:58 > 0:28:01The confidential answer by someone in the National Grid was
0:28:01 > 0:28:04if we'd asked people if that's what they wanted
0:28:04 > 0:28:05they would have agreed it.
0:28:05 > 0:28:08Sorry, I need to go back to the audience.
0:28:08 > 0:28:09Robert Idris.
0:28:09 > 0:28:12Thank you. I'm here on behalf of PAWB.
0:28:12 > 0:28:14The points that Dr Harri made.
0:28:14 > 0:28:18Firstly, everyone wants energy and need it all the time.
0:28:18 > 0:28:21How will Wylfa produce that?
0:28:21 > 0:28:24That won't happen for years and people need power now.
0:28:24 > 0:28:29Let's go to Scotland where 40% of power comes from renweables.
0:28:29 > 0:28:32A study by London's Imperial College says
0:28:32 > 0:28:37if one third of houses in Britain get solar panels
0:28:37 > 0:28:42they will produce 6% of Britain's energy.
0:28:42 > 0:28:45There are several new ways of creating jobs.
0:28:45 > 0:28:50In Scotland, they've added 5% to the thousands of jobs there already.
0:28:50 > 0:28:52We haven't got a energy policy for Wales and I know Rhun wants
0:28:52 > 0:28:54to see that happen.
0:28:54 > 0:28:59We should have gone after this which is such a monster.
0:28:59 > 0:29:03Are you worried that you've lost the debate?
0:29:03 > 0:29:05It is going to happen.
0:29:05 > 0:29:07I don't think we'll ever lose the argument.
0:29:07 > 0:29:10We've got a government in Westminster
0:29:10 > 0:29:13who has promised, for twice the price,
0:29:13 > 0:29:15to build a power station in Hinckley.
0:29:15 > 0:29:18Some of our members have been to Japan
0:29:18 > 0:29:20and spoken to the mayor of Fukushima where 100,000 people...
0:29:20 > 0:29:23What did he say?
0:29:23 > 0:29:26He came from an area similar to Anglesey
0:29:26 > 0:29:29where there was unemployment, no opportunities for young people
0:29:29 > 0:29:31and they welcome it.
0:29:31 > 0:29:33The answer now is, no.
0:29:33 > 0:29:35You asked the question.
0:29:37 > 0:29:39I totally agree with Robin Farrar.
0:29:41 > 0:29:45There are other ways of creating electricity.
0:29:47 > 0:29:52Yes, fine. John Idris Jones, you work as an Energy Officer for Anglesey.
0:29:54 > 0:29:57With these different ways of creating electricity
0:29:57 > 0:30:01as Dr Harri was saying, what's important is
0:30:01 > 0:30:05we need energy for our way of life.
0:30:05 > 0:30:09With Anglesey, what's important to me is
0:30:09 > 0:30:11how can we use this way to create power
0:30:11 > 0:30:14to bring economic prosperity to our county?
0:30:14 > 0:30:16That will keep young people here.
0:30:16 > 0:30:21Unfortunately, the jobs and so forth people are talking about
0:30:21 > 0:30:24with wind turbines and sea power,
0:30:24 > 0:30:28they don't bring in jobs, unfortunately.
0:30:28 > 0:30:30What about the pylons?
0:30:30 > 0:30:32If we want jobs
0:30:32 > 0:30:36we need a connection between Wylfa and the pylons at sea.
0:30:36 > 0:30:40When it comes to the pylons the Grid has failed to explain
0:30:40 > 0:30:44why they've decided to go with the pylons.
0:30:44 > 0:30:48We need a better explanation by the Grid for this.
0:30:48 > 0:30:50Would you argue in favour of underwater cables?
0:30:50 > 0:30:54I would question the Grid in detail.
0:30:54 > 0:30:58What would the cost be? What would be the technical problems?
0:30:58 > 0:31:00We haven't had a clear explanation in technical problems.
0:31:00 > 0:31:03So you'd got that. Emlyn Richards in the front row.
0:31:05 > 0:31:08I'm sure a record has been broken here tonight.
0:31:08 > 0:31:13I've been to every Pawb a'i Farn right from the start.
0:31:14 > 0:31:17This is the only time
0:31:17 > 0:31:20when everyone has been totally in agreement.
0:31:20 > 0:31:25That agreement is about protecting Anglesey.
0:31:28 > 0:31:32We need to protect the island from Gwynedd in this instance.
0:31:34 > 0:31:37Can I ask you kindly to protect the island
0:31:37 > 0:31:38in another direction?
0:31:38 > 0:31:41They're not agreed in this topic.
0:31:41 > 0:31:44As you talk about your Wylfa B,
0:31:44 > 0:31:47but it will be the same Wylfa.
0:31:49 > 0:31:52It will have created radioactive waste
0:31:52 > 0:31:57that will be too hot to bury for 150 years.
0:31:58 > 0:32:03We haven't found the cemetery or the grave so far.
0:32:04 > 0:32:07Can I tonight as the people of Anglesey
0:32:07 > 0:32:10and ask seriously,
0:32:10 > 0:32:14if you are to protect this dear little island,
0:32:14 > 0:32:17protect it in that.
0:32:17 > 0:32:20Thank you, Emlyn Richards. Applause there.
0:32:25 > 0:32:28The audience enjoyed that lecture.
0:32:28 > 0:32:29How about you?
0:32:29 > 0:32:32It's a shame these two things are connected.
0:32:32 > 0:32:35I'm sure we've had enough discussion on Wylfa.
0:32:35 > 0:32:38The most important point for us at the moment,
0:32:38 > 0:32:41and we in Llanfair and on the other side of the Menai,
0:32:41 > 0:32:44have been meeting about this.
0:32:44 > 0:32:46We are united.
0:32:46 > 0:32:49We've stayed out of the argument whether we're in favour of Wylfa
0:32:49 > 0:32:53or not. We have referred directly towards the pylons.
0:32:53 > 0:32:56This what I'm concerned about, you're talking about
0:32:56 > 0:32:58what the National Grid is doing.
0:32:58 > 0:33:01That question is being asked and then thrown back.
0:33:01 > 0:33:06It was thrown back after Gill Durbas asked the First Minister
0:33:06 > 0:33:10the same thing. If you're not in favour of Wylfa
0:33:10 > 0:33:12you're against these pylons?
0:33:12 > 0:33:15They connect both things together.
0:33:15 > 0:33:17The question asked connected it.
0:33:17 > 0:33:21We're going to be like Sweden, we're going to have these on the Menai
0:33:21 > 0:33:24but what about the rest of Anglesey?
0:33:24 > 0:33:25John Rowlands?
0:33:26 > 0:33:29it seems likely that 10% of Britain's energy
0:33:29 > 0:33:33will come across north Wales with these developments.
0:33:33 > 0:33:37We have to remember that this energy is low carbon energy.
0:33:37 > 0:33:41So we're making a huge contribution to Britain's energy.
0:33:41 > 0:33:47There are plans to place wires from Scotland to Merseyside
0:33:47 > 0:33:51under the sea. There are developments in Ireland.
0:33:51 > 0:33:56It is completely possible if they look at the technical side of it.
0:33:56 > 0:34:00It already happens in other places in the world
0:34:00 > 0:34:04so we don't have to accept what the National Grid says.
0:34:04 > 0:34:09We've had a very good meeting last week
0:34:09 > 0:34:13to lead the campaign to oppose the pylons.
0:34:13 > 0:34:17What about the new Wylfa, as an intended Plaid Cymru candidate,
0:34:17 > 0:34:19where do you stand on that?
0:34:19 > 0:34:22The development of Wylfa, according to what's been said
0:34:22 > 0:34:26in the last six months, looks more and more likely.
0:34:26 > 0:34:29We welcome that but as Rhun's already said
0:34:29 > 0:34:34we have to make sure that all the matters dealing with local jobs,
0:34:34 > 0:34:36protecting the Welsh language,
0:34:36 > 0:34:42making sure that the safety side, are all considered.
0:34:42 > 0:34:45Even though your party's against nuclear, you're happy with this?
0:34:45 > 0:34:49Our party is in favour of a new site
0:34:49 > 0:34:53in this location on Anglesey.
0:34:53 > 0:34:57Thank you, John Rowlands. Richard Vauxhall, who works for the Horizon company.
0:34:57 > 0:34:59Going back to the question
0:34:59 > 0:35:03and if you took the new Wylfa out of the picture.
0:35:03 > 0:35:08The turbine energy scheme out in the sea
0:35:08 > 0:35:13will bring more energy to the island than the pylons can carry.
0:35:13 > 0:35:15And there are other developments.
0:35:15 > 0:35:17With regard to jobs for young people,
0:35:17 > 0:35:21it's a personal mission for us to make sure that young people,
0:35:21 > 0:35:24and I go out to schools regularly these days
0:35:24 > 0:35:27to make sure young people understand the possibilities
0:35:27 > 0:35:30of long term careers that will keep them on the island.
0:35:30 > 0:35:32That's important.
0:35:32 > 0:35:36What's also important and there might be a discussion about this,
0:35:36 > 0:35:40is that they understand they need the right qualifications
0:35:40 > 0:35:45in order to come and work, not only as engineers in a new power station,
0:35:45 > 0:35:47but also work on the extra design and machinery
0:35:47 > 0:35:49in the other energy schemes.
0:35:49 > 0:35:52Do you meet people from the National Grid?
0:35:52 > 0:35:54I come across them once in a while.
0:35:54 > 0:35:57Would you argue the case for something apart from pylons,
0:35:57 > 0:35:59or do you think pylons are alright?
0:35:59 > 0:36:02The important thing to consider is when the Grid goes out to consult,
0:36:02 > 0:36:04it wants to hear people's views.
0:36:04 > 0:36:07That's what influences what they decide to do in the end.
0:36:07 > 0:36:11It also gives them the evidence for them to go back to managers
0:36:11 > 0:36:13and say this is the opinion of local people.
0:36:13 > 0:36:16But it's important that the Grid asks the right question
0:36:16 > 0:36:20and at the moment, the Grid is not asking the question about going under the sea.
0:36:20 > 0:36:22It hasn't been a fair consultation.
0:36:22 > 0:36:25There are a few hands up. Lowri Mair in the middle.
0:36:25 > 0:36:31As someone who was also brought up two miles from Wylfa,
0:36:31 > 0:36:36I have to agree with Robin here and disagree with Dr Harri.
0:36:36 > 0:36:41I think when we're talking about such a large investment
0:36:41 > 0:36:44which is going to be made over several years,
0:36:44 > 0:36:47I'd invest that money in education and research.
0:36:47 > 0:36:52I think there's a way of developing something more sustainable in the end.
0:36:52 > 0:36:56Fine, we can invest all this money in Wylfa,
0:36:56 > 0:37:00but in 40 years, we'll be in the same situation again.
0:37:00 > 0:37:03Thank you, Lowri. There was a hand up over there.
0:37:03 > 0:37:07I would prefer my children and my children's children
0:37:07 > 0:37:13to get jobs in Wylfa than in the big white elephant in Holyhead, Land and Lakes.
0:37:13 > 0:37:16There won't be any jobs there, but there will be at Wylfa.
0:37:16 > 0:37:18I'm in favour of it.
0:37:18 > 0:37:21We are coming to the end with regard to the audience.
0:37:21 > 0:37:23These two have their hands up, John Chorlton?
0:37:23 > 0:37:26As far as I can see, every time people talk about Wylfa B,
0:37:26 > 0:37:28they say it's going to have an affect on the language.
0:37:28 > 0:37:30I don't quite understand that.
0:37:30 > 0:37:33Where are the strongest places with regard to the language?
0:37:33 > 0:37:36Caernarfon, Gwynedd and Anglesey.
0:37:36 > 0:37:40What's in Gwynedd? Trawsfynydd. What's on Anglesey? Wylfa.
0:37:40 > 0:37:43It hasn't affected the language up until now.
0:37:43 > 0:37:46Why is Wylfa B going to have an affect? I don't understand.
0:37:46 > 0:37:48Gareth?
0:37:48 > 0:37:53I was fortunate enough to find temporary work at Wylfa this month
0:37:53 > 0:37:58and I spoke Welsh there every day and I talked to Richard in Welsh.
0:37:58 > 0:38:00You'd be amazed how many people do speak Welsh there.
0:38:00 > 0:38:02The language is healthy there.
0:38:02 > 0:38:06I'm going to give you all an opportunity to give a short reply.
0:38:06 > 0:38:08Robin, answer this point about the language.
0:38:08 > 0:38:13The point is that Wylfa has had a negative effect
0:38:13 > 0:38:16over the last few years, there's no doubt about that.
0:38:16 > 0:38:17AUDIENCE GRUMBLES
0:38:17 > 0:38:20Look at the results of the Census.
0:38:20 > 0:38:22The percentage of the population
0:38:22 > 0:38:25which speaks Welsh on Anglesey has dropped.
0:38:25 > 0:38:29The number of people speaking the language has dropped.
0:38:29 > 0:38:32That's because young people are moving away.
0:38:32 > 0:38:36Yes, we need jobs. We need jobs for them.
0:38:36 > 0:38:42Wylfa is going to create jobs mainly for people from other places.
0:38:42 > 0:38:44Right. There we are.
0:38:44 > 0:38:47Some people in the audience disagree with you.
0:38:47 > 0:38:49Beti Williams?
0:38:49 > 0:38:51When Anglesey Aluminium was being built
0:38:51 > 0:38:54and when the first Wylfa was being built,
0:38:54 > 0:38:57it kept the young people of Anglesey on Anglesey
0:38:57 > 0:38:59and they're still here now and have got jobs.
0:38:59 > 0:39:01But let me say this.
0:39:01 > 0:39:04It's a bit rich, to use an English term,
0:39:04 > 0:39:07for Plaid Cymru to be in favour of a new Wylfa
0:39:07 > 0:39:10and in favour of not having these pylons
0:39:10 > 0:39:12when Leanne Wood and the team in Cardiff...
0:39:12 > 0:39:15Plaid Cymru's policy is anti-nuclear.
0:39:15 > 0:39:17You didn't get an honest answer from Mr Rowlands
0:39:17 > 0:39:20because this to me is like parish council politics.
0:39:20 > 0:39:23You change the policy from parish to parish.
0:39:23 > 0:39:26- Rhun, respond to that. - What do you want me to do?
0:39:26 > 0:39:29- Relive that battle or...- Is it over?
0:39:29 > 0:39:32I'll answer the point Gareth made.
0:39:32 > 0:39:34I'm sure Gareth and John would agree with me on this.
0:39:34 > 0:39:36What we have to be careful of
0:39:36 > 0:39:39is the gap between this Wylfa and the next Wylfa.
0:39:39 > 0:39:41There's a danger that young local people will move away
0:39:41 > 0:39:45and other people will move in to fill the hole.
0:39:45 > 0:39:48We want to make sure they can work as Welsh speakers in Wylfa.
0:39:48 > 0:39:51Harri, you can have the final word.
0:39:51 > 0:39:56Economically, for a village like Cemaes, Wylfa is crucial.
0:39:56 > 0:39:57We need it for our energy.
0:39:57 > 0:40:00If we had some other way of producing energy, great.
0:40:00 > 0:40:03But we haven't, so we welcome it.
0:40:03 > 0:40:06APPLAUSE
0:40:08 > 0:40:10I have to ask you as a local GP,
0:40:10 > 0:40:13is it a boost for a blow for the language?
0:40:13 > 0:40:15If we have language centres
0:40:15 > 0:40:17to help the children of the people who come in,
0:40:17 > 0:40:21so that they are integrated through the Welsh language at the beginning,
0:40:21 > 0:40:25it could be positive for the language if it's done properly.
0:40:25 > 0:40:28And Coleg Menai and Bangor University
0:40:28 > 0:40:31have a crucial role to play and they're already playing their part.
0:40:31 > 0:40:34I want to praise them for what they're doing
0:40:34 > 0:40:37to prepare our young people to fill these jobs when they're advertised.
0:40:37 > 0:40:41We have to take a short break. Join us again in Llangefni in two minutes.
0:40:55 > 0:40:59Welcome back to Llangefni. We have one part of our programme left.
0:40:59 > 0:41:03We've only had time for three questions this evening, I'm afraid.
0:41:03 > 0:41:06But there's so much to discuss, isn't there?
0:41:06 > 0:41:09This question comes from Karen Parry Rowlands.
0:41:09 > 0:41:14Does the panel believe it would be a mistake to invest less money
0:41:14 > 0:41:18in maintaining playgroups on the island?
0:41:18 > 0:41:23Does the panel believe it would be a mistake to invest less money
0:41:23 > 0:41:26in maintaining playgroups on the island?
0:41:26 > 0:41:29It's something being discussed at the moment on Anglesey.
0:41:29 > 0:41:31Robin Farrar, let's start with you.
0:41:31 > 0:41:35It's a big mistake, in my opinion.
0:41:37 > 0:41:41To begin with, this shouldn't be necessary at all.
0:41:41 > 0:41:46What Anglesey Council has done in this case is pass on cuts
0:41:46 > 0:41:49which we oppose.
0:41:49 > 0:41:54If the Welsh Government followed sensible examples
0:41:54 > 0:41:57like the government in the Basque country
0:41:57 > 0:41:59and invested seriously in the language,
0:41:59 > 0:42:03that's one of the six things we've been calling for them to do
0:42:03 > 0:42:05for the sake of the language.
0:42:05 > 0:42:08We want the language to have fairness financially.
0:42:08 > 0:42:11There would be a significant amount of money from the Government
0:42:11 > 0:42:15going towards schemes like Twf and playgroups.
0:42:15 > 0:42:17They're very important,
0:42:17 > 0:42:21not only to the young people and the parents who need them,
0:42:21 > 0:42:23but for the language as well.
0:42:23 > 0:42:29But this is a mistake by Anglesey as well, I think,
0:42:29 > 0:42:36because the council says the provision will move to schools,
0:42:36 > 0:42:38the provision for three to four-year-olds.
0:42:38 > 0:42:41Is that going to save money in the end?
0:42:41 > 0:42:43I don't think it is.
0:42:43 > 0:42:45One of the great things about playgroups
0:42:45 > 0:42:48is that volunteers do a lot of the work.
0:42:48 > 0:42:51That saves money but it's also a strength
0:42:51 > 0:42:55because if people have moved into the area,
0:42:55 > 0:42:59it's a way of helping people to integrate into communities.
0:42:59 > 0:43:03- But in a time of cuts... - The children are going to have...
0:43:03 > 0:43:05But why avoid this field in a time of cuts?
0:43:05 > 0:43:07In a time of cuts,
0:43:07 > 0:43:11we should be investing more in the Welsh language.
0:43:11 > 0:43:15The Welsh language has not had fair play financially
0:43:15 > 0:43:17over the last few years.
0:43:17 > 0:43:20We've called on the Welsh Government to assess
0:43:20 > 0:43:23the effect its spending is having on the language.
0:43:23 > 0:43:26It hasn't done that. These cuts aren't fair.
0:43:26 > 0:43:28But this big spending you're talking about
0:43:28 > 0:43:30isn't going to happen at this time.
0:43:30 > 0:43:31That's the real world.
0:43:31 > 0:43:34With leadership from Carwyn Jones and the Welsh Government,
0:43:34 > 0:43:37there would be investment in important things like this.
0:43:37 > 0:43:40Karen Parry Rowlands, what's happening here on Anglesey?
0:43:40 > 0:43:44It's not fair to put three-year-old children in schools.
0:43:44 > 0:43:48My own children have been to nursery school.
0:43:48 > 0:43:52They see the teacher as an aunty, not a teacher.
0:43:52 > 0:43:55A three-year-old child is not going to get the same fair play
0:43:55 > 0:43:59as a four-year-old in a rural school.
0:43:59 > 0:44:01He's going to get left behind.
0:44:01 > 0:44:06In most rural schools, they are between the ages of four and seven.
0:44:06 > 0:44:09Where is a three-year-old child going to get the education?
0:44:09 > 0:44:13They're not. It's not fair.
0:44:13 > 0:44:16You've set your stall there. Trefor Lloyd Hughes.
0:44:16 > 0:44:20To be fair, we should be funding nursery schools.
0:44:20 > 0:44:22There's no doubt about that.
0:44:22 > 0:44:28But what I can't understand is, we've got £16 million
0:44:28 > 0:44:31in the Anglesey Trust.
0:44:31 > 0:44:33Why is it there?
0:44:33 > 0:44:38Why can't we use some of that to put towards nursery schools?
0:44:38 > 0:44:42Towards other organisations on Anglesey.
0:44:42 > 0:44:46People on Anglesey need the money now, not in 20 or 30 years.
0:44:46 > 0:44:48Now.
0:44:48 > 0:44:51And I think we as councillors on Anglesey should realise...
0:44:51 > 0:44:55But you've got £7.5 million to save this year.
0:44:55 > 0:44:59Something has to give. What are you going to cut if you don't cut this?
0:44:59 > 0:45:02But you could take money from the trust to help.
0:45:02 > 0:45:04Right. John Wyn Jones?
0:45:04 > 0:45:06I agree with Trefor Lloyd Hughes.
0:45:06 > 0:45:08I have grandchildren now and I have to say,
0:45:08 > 0:45:13I do see a big difference between three and four-year-old children.
0:45:13 > 0:45:18I think it would be a mistake to try and fill the gaps in the schools,
0:45:18 > 0:45:20primary schools...
0:45:20 > 0:45:23But where would you make cuts?
0:45:23 > 0:45:25You have to make cuts somewhere.
0:45:25 > 0:45:28I'm not in the local authority.
0:45:28 > 0:45:31To be honest, Plaid Cymru is the opposition party on Anglesey.
0:45:31 > 0:45:33I'm sure you've got an opinion.
0:45:33 > 0:45:35Yes, but the people in charge have to decide.
0:45:35 > 0:45:37Aled Morris Jones.
0:45:37 > 0:45:40This issue is still being discussed at the moment,
0:45:40 > 0:45:42and no decisions have been made.
0:45:42 > 0:45:46The councillors all agree on this, if I may say so.
0:45:46 > 0:45:48It's not a matter of opposition.
0:45:48 > 0:45:51We're all there as councillors together to make decisions
0:45:51 > 0:45:54and it was good that the opposition party met
0:45:54 > 0:45:57with the party that was in control.
0:45:57 > 0:46:01There are no easy decisions in this difficult time.
0:46:01 > 0:46:05But we have to protect the language, that's for sure.
0:46:05 > 0:46:08We have to look for some kind of compromise here.
0:46:08 > 0:46:11Let's go back to the panel. Rhun ap Iorwerth?
0:46:11 > 0:46:15I'm amazed and disappointed by this recommendation
0:46:15 > 0:46:19and I think the way the recommendation has been put together
0:46:19 > 0:46:21insults the good work staff
0:46:21 > 0:46:27and volunteers at nursery schools have put in.
0:46:27 > 0:46:31It's easy to criticise the cuts, but you have to make them somewhere.
0:46:31 > 0:46:36We're talking about a relatively small sum of money.
0:46:36 > 0:46:41It would be a decision on saving money now, literally next month,
0:46:41 > 0:46:46without thinking, it seems, about the long term implications.
0:46:46 > 0:46:50Investing in the compulsory school age,
0:46:50 > 0:46:52the age when they could go to school
0:46:52 > 0:46:55but instead have been going to nursery school,
0:46:55 > 0:47:00investing in that sustains the other work
0:47:00 > 0:47:03done by Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin, from Cylch Ti a Fi
0:47:03 > 0:47:06through to other children from the age of two onwards.
0:47:06 > 0:47:10Is the council really saying it wants to take that opportunity
0:47:10 > 0:47:13away from parents on Anglesey, many of whom don't speak Welsh,
0:47:13 > 0:47:17to send their children to nursery schools just to save a few pennies.
0:47:17 > 0:47:21I'm glad that Aled seems to be agreeing
0:47:21 > 0:47:24with the Plaid Cymru councillors because they've all told me
0:47:24 > 0:47:30they're going to strongly oppose any intention to introduce this change.
0:47:30 > 0:47:32I look forward to have confirmation now that you,
0:47:32 > 0:47:35as a member of this council's cabinet,
0:47:35 > 0:47:37will throw this idea out immediately.
0:47:37 > 0:47:39You can respond, Aled.
0:47:39 > 0:47:42I don't think you quite understood what I said, unfortunately.
0:47:42 > 0:47:47There are still discussions going on between everyone.
0:47:47 > 0:47:50So discussions mean that it's possible this won't happen?
0:47:50 > 0:47:54County council officials from the education department
0:47:54 > 0:47:59have met with nursery schools today and those discussions are ongoing.
0:47:59 > 0:48:01Beti Williams.
0:48:01 > 0:48:03I'm inviting you to say that all cabinet members
0:48:03 > 0:48:05will reject this idea.
0:48:05 > 0:48:07No decisions have been made.
0:48:07 > 0:48:10- I hope you understand the message. - Do you oppose it, Aled?
0:48:10 > 0:48:13We won't get a further answer, Rhun. Beti Williams.
0:48:13 > 0:48:15Rhun is an Assembly Member
0:48:15 > 0:48:17but the councillor is a member of Anglesey Council.
0:48:17 > 0:48:21So I understand what he's saying and from where he's coming from.
0:48:21 > 0:48:25But what's important is that young children are allowed to socialise
0:48:25 > 0:48:29and learn to live with each other before going into formal education.
0:48:29 > 0:48:34I'd like to think that Anglesey Council's aim
0:48:34 > 0:48:37is for that to continue but that it happens in a school
0:48:37 > 0:48:39rather than a centre.
0:48:39 > 0:48:43If I'm right, what started this debate
0:48:43 > 0:48:50is that an Estyn report said that a lot of good work was being done by playgroups
0:48:50 > 0:48:54but that some services were uneven across Anglesey.
0:48:54 > 0:48:58So what they want is to ensure that every child
0:48:58 > 0:49:00has the same standard across the county.
0:49:00 > 0:49:02Harri, very briefly.
0:49:02 > 0:49:05I think it's very sad for the Welsh language
0:49:05 > 0:49:08and socially for the parents and children.
0:49:08 > 0:49:10It's not just about the children.
0:49:10 > 0:49:13The mothers meet, it helps them psychologically.
0:49:13 > 0:49:14It's crucial.
0:49:14 > 0:49:17Thank you very much and thank you to the audience on Anglesey.
0:49:17 > 0:49:20It's been a pleasure, as usual, to have your company.
0:49:20 > 0:49:23Thank you also to the panel for your contributions.
0:49:23 > 0:49:25Next week, I'll be in Pembrokeshire.
0:49:25 > 0:49:28Until then, from Llangefni, good night.