0:00:25 > 0:00:30On our panel tonight, Labour councillor Calum Higgins,
0:00:30 > 0:00:34singer, nationalist and businessman Dafydd Iwan,
0:00:34 > 0:00:37former leader of Pembrokeshire Council
0:00:37 > 0:00:40and Chairman of the Royal Welsh Agricultural Society, John Davies,
0:00:40 > 0:00:43and the head of BT in Wales, who is also Wales' Equality
0:00:43 > 0:00:47and Human Rights Commissioner, Ann Beynon.
0:00:47 > 0:00:49Please give them a warm welcome.
0:00:49 > 0:00:52APPLAUSE
0:01:02 > 0:01:07Good evening and welcome to another edition of Pawb a'i Farn.
0:01:08 > 0:01:13I must say that it is wonderful to be back in Pembrokeshire once again.
0:01:13 > 0:01:15It's our only visit this winter.
0:01:15 > 0:01:18I have a question for the audience in Crymych.
0:01:18 > 0:01:23Will you be as willing to debate as the people of Anglesey last week?
0:01:23 > 0:01:27If you are, we'll have an interesting night at the leisure centre,
0:01:27 > 0:01:30next-door to Ysgol Preseli.
0:01:30 > 0:01:34There will obviously be different subjects.
0:01:34 > 0:01:37They were chosen this afternoon.
0:01:37 > 0:01:39And you are welcome to respond to the debate.
0:01:39 > 0:01:41Let's go to our first question.
0:01:41 > 0:01:44It comes from Sara Watkins. Sara, what is your question?
0:01:44 > 0:01:47Following the recent flood damage, is spending more the answer,
0:01:47 > 0:01:51or should we let nature have its way?
0:01:51 > 0:01:52Thank you, Sara.
0:01:52 > 0:01:55Following the recent flood damage, is spending more the answer,
0:01:55 > 0:02:01or should we let nature have its way? A very topical question.
0:02:01 > 0:02:04John Davies, I'll start with you.
0:02:04 > 0:02:07Thank you, Dewi. It is an interesting question.
0:02:07 > 0:02:12Nature does not have to ask for our permission. Nature is our master.
0:02:12 > 0:02:17And as an agriculturalist, we have known through the generations, we
0:02:17 > 0:02:21have to work alongside nature and we must respect nature in order
0:02:21 > 0:02:24to grow produce for the table and so on.
0:02:24 > 0:02:28In the context of what we have seen this winter, and this winter has
0:02:28 > 0:02:31been extreme, but the question is - is this going to become the norm?
0:02:31 > 0:02:36It is heartbreaking to see what has been happening in Somerset,
0:02:36 > 0:02:38the Somerset Levels.
0:02:38 > 0:02:43We need to spend more and David Cameron has announced that this
0:02:43 > 0:02:49week, there is £130 million extra, but that is nothing...
0:02:49 > 0:02:50And it is money for England.
0:02:50 > 0:02:53Well, I would hope there would be a percentage...
0:02:53 > 0:02:56They have to ask for it and they have not yet done so.
0:02:56 > 0:02:59I would expect that question to be asked.
0:02:59 > 0:03:02But the fact is that we need to spend more and spend it effectively.
0:03:02 > 0:03:06But we also need to allow common sense...
0:03:06 > 0:03:10We need to dredge rivers because if you go back...
0:03:10 > 0:03:12You don't have to go to Somerset.
0:03:12 > 0:03:16If you go back to the summer of two years ago,
0:03:16 > 0:03:19northern Ceredigion, Talybont.
0:03:19 > 0:03:24At the time, people who knew the area and the landscape
0:03:24 > 0:03:29said that the rivers need dredging, drains need clearing.
0:03:29 > 0:03:35That is not happening because we are over-managing.
0:03:35 > 0:03:37Is it that our priorities are different?
0:03:37 > 0:03:41Bodies such as Natural Resources Wales have decided
0:03:41 > 0:03:42we have different priorities.
0:03:42 > 0:03:46That is part of it, but you have too many experts.
0:03:46 > 0:03:50We need to spend the extra money to make a difference,
0:03:50 > 0:03:53rather than spending on processes
0:03:53 > 0:03:57because unless you spend the extra £130 million on dredging
0:03:57 > 0:04:01the rivers, building new defences, you will not make a difference.
0:04:01 > 0:04:02Dafydd Iwan.
0:04:02 > 0:04:06I think that Mr Pickles' statement today is shocking
0:04:06 > 0:04:09because Britain is the member of the European Union
0:04:09 > 0:04:14and the British parliament is applying for the whole of Britain.
0:04:14 > 0:04:18To say they are keeping the money for England, Wales is devolved,
0:04:18 > 0:04:21is, I think, a little insulting.
0:04:21 > 0:04:25If the Welsh Government can apply for more money, that is
0:04:25 > 0:04:28a different matter.
0:04:28 > 0:04:31But I'm surprised that it has been put that way,
0:04:31 > 0:04:33saying it is just for England.
0:04:33 > 0:04:36Of course, we need money to repair the damage,
0:04:36 > 0:04:40but the second part of the question is interesting.
0:04:40 > 0:04:45In the long-term, as John suggested, we cannot defeat nature.
0:04:45 > 0:04:50And it is about time we realised that nature is changing its ways.
0:04:50 > 0:04:54So, do we give in, even when homes are in the balance,
0:04:54 > 0:04:58- nature is stronger than us? - It is not a matter of giving in.
0:04:58 > 0:05:01I think we must accept that the climate is changing,
0:05:01 > 0:05:05the weather pattern is changing and we need a long-term plan, a radical
0:05:05 > 0:05:09plan, to gradually move people from seaside towns to live inland.
0:05:09 > 0:05:14You'd go that far? Move them from the towns affected?
0:05:14 > 0:05:18Gradually, we have to do that and we need a new way of building,
0:05:18 > 0:05:19on stilts if need be.
0:05:19 > 0:05:23I saw plans recently, maybe the rest of the panel have seen,
0:05:23 > 0:05:2850 years on, the Welsh Government is already preparing plans.
0:05:28 > 0:05:33For our community council, there is a lot of lowland,
0:05:33 > 0:05:36a lot of the land was disappearing.
0:05:36 > 0:05:40Roads going, so we need to re-plan roads and some railways
0:05:40 > 0:05:42and we will have to move.
0:05:42 > 0:05:47Some of our seaside towns will be facing problems.
0:05:47 > 0:05:50I will return to you, Dafydd. Ann, what do you think?
0:05:50 > 0:05:53I do think that we all need to take responsibility,
0:05:53 > 0:05:56we can't just blame the Government all the time.
0:05:56 > 0:05:57We need to be cleverer.
0:05:57 > 0:06:00There is a great example right now in Llanelli,
0:06:00 > 0:06:02work being carried out by Welsh Water.
0:06:02 > 0:06:05They have discovered a way of diverting the water,
0:06:05 > 0:06:07so it does not enter the sewerage system.
0:06:07 > 0:06:10That is a simple system and I would suggest that from now on,
0:06:10 > 0:06:14all towns in future should build such systems.
0:06:14 > 0:06:18As individuals, we can also make a difference.
0:06:18 > 0:06:21We can avoid tarmacing gardens.
0:06:21 > 0:06:25It is a fact that a number of people in towns
0:06:25 > 0:06:29tarmacing their gardens have added to the problem.
0:06:29 > 0:06:32But also, these houses have been built on floodplains.
0:06:32 > 0:06:36- The rules have been eased over recent years.- Yes, and that is a mess.
0:06:36 > 0:06:39I do believe that planning regulations where there is
0:06:39 > 0:06:42a danger of flooding need to be strict.
0:06:42 > 0:06:44Unfortunately, there are houses there already.
0:06:44 > 0:06:49- You can't move them that quickly, so in the meantime...- So we spend?
0:06:49 > 0:06:52We have to spend, but maybe we need to be cleverer in order to
0:06:52 > 0:06:55defend the houses that are already there.
0:06:55 > 0:06:58Calum Higgins. Let's hear from Calum.
0:06:58 > 0:07:02As the other panellists have said, long-term planning is the answer.
0:07:02 > 0:07:07In Llanelli, the Rainscape project is going ahead
0:07:07 > 0:07:10and it is leading the way in this field.
0:07:10 > 0:07:15Welsh Water take the water out of the traditional system
0:07:15 > 0:07:20that they had and they are putting it in grass, roadside verges.
0:07:20 > 0:07:25Millions is being spent, but those millions will pay off
0:07:25 > 0:07:31in the years to come and that is the answer - long-term planning.
0:07:31 > 0:07:35But would you accept that the rules have been eased too much over
0:07:35 > 0:07:40recent years and that there has been too much building on dangerous land?
0:07:40 > 0:07:43That is the reason we have brought Natural Resources Wales
0:07:43 > 0:07:47together to ensure that agencies talk to each other
0:07:47 > 0:07:53and Welsh Water is consulted when estates are being built.
0:07:53 > 0:07:56There have been problems in the past.
0:07:56 > 0:08:00But talking to each other is not the problem.
0:08:00 > 0:08:03The councillors who voted in favour of building houses on floodplains
0:08:03 > 0:08:07have seen the plans, but they don't have to take any notice of them.
0:08:07 > 0:08:10We need to change the legislation
0:08:10 > 0:08:15and say that we should not be building on any floodplains.
0:08:15 > 0:08:19- And councillors have to take notice of that.- Why aren't they
0:08:19 > 0:08:21doing so at the moment?
0:08:21 > 0:08:24It is not statutory right now. You have the Information Act,
0:08:24 > 0:08:28but you don't have to take that into consideration.
0:08:28 > 0:08:32- So you blame the councils?- Yes. I have been involved in votes.
0:08:32 > 0:08:36All that was done was floor level was raised six inches.
0:08:36 > 0:08:39That isn't good enough.
0:08:39 > 0:08:41If there is a danger of serious flooding,
0:08:41 > 0:08:44we should stay clear of that land.
0:08:44 > 0:08:47- Are agriculturalists to blame? - Or build on stilts.
0:08:47 > 0:08:52- That's what we did years ago. - That sounds very radical to me.
0:08:52 > 0:08:54John, are we over-farming in some highland areas
0:08:54 > 0:08:59and that allows the water to flow down too quickly?
0:08:59 > 0:09:02You have obviously read George Monbiot's article.
0:09:02 > 0:09:07- You obviously have, too. - In my opinion, that is stupid.
0:09:07 > 0:09:11What about planting trees?
0:09:11 > 0:09:15If you plant more trees, the roots hold the land back.
0:09:15 > 0:09:18We need to be planting more trees.
0:09:18 > 0:09:22The fact is that farmers in the 21st century are far more
0:09:22 > 0:09:26environmental in the way they go about their work.
0:09:26 > 0:09:27They are urged to do so.
0:09:27 > 0:09:31And I would tell you that sustainability is key.
0:09:31 > 0:09:35Look at the rivers. We live in these areas.
0:09:35 > 0:09:37You will see there is no maintenance.
0:09:37 > 0:09:40If there had been along the Aberystwyth promenade,
0:09:40 > 0:09:44they were old sea walls, it would still be there.
0:09:44 > 0:09:47Go down to Aberaeron and there has been investment.
0:09:47 > 0:09:51No-one has mentioned Aberaeron. Part of Aberaeron is under the sea level.
0:09:51 > 0:09:53It is simple.
0:09:53 > 0:09:57We need to ease restrictions to allow people to carry out
0:09:57 > 0:10:00the maintenance work on those rivers.
0:10:00 > 0:10:03And that is what the people of Somerset are saying.
0:10:03 > 0:10:05And now, the politicians have to listen.
0:10:05 > 0:10:09But you dispute the point about these trees, from Ann?
0:10:09 > 0:10:11- That is happening.- Is it?
0:10:11 > 0:10:15We have to accept that it is good for the environment.
0:10:15 > 0:10:18It stops the water flowing down into the sea.
0:10:18 > 0:10:21But we are playing with the idea, playing with the problem.
0:10:21 > 0:10:26We need long-term planning to move our population and houses.
0:10:26 > 0:10:30Nature is not going to change its way.
0:10:30 > 0:10:33I will return to that criticism of Eric Pickles.
0:10:33 > 0:10:36The suggestion that the Welsh Government has not asked for money.
0:10:36 > 0:10:39That is what David Jones, the Conservative, is saying.
0:10:39 > 0:10:45- Calum?- This is playing at politics. We all know...
0:10:45 > 0:10:51Planning at that level is something where all governments cooperate.
0:10:51 > 0:10:53Eric Pickles is making a cheap point.
0:10:53 > 0:10:56Right, cheap or not, I'm going straight to the back row,
0:10:56 > 0:10:58to Sara, who asked the question.
0:10:58 > 0:11:03As the panel has already said, we cannot control nature
0:11:03 > 0:11:07and one thing that has been put in place is the short-term
0:11:07 > 0:11:08and long-term plans
0:11:08 > 0:11:12and one of the long-term plans is to allow the land to become a
0:11:12 > 0:11:18floodplain, areas in Pembrokeshire, such as Amorth and Freshwater East.
0:11:18 > 0:11:21And maybe in the long-term, that will stop flooding,
0:11:21 > 0:11:24but then, we need to consider the fact that Pembrokeshire
0:11:24 > 0:11:29as a county relies on those areas, those wonderful views, for tourism.
0:11:29 > 0:11:32Won't the economy of Pembrokeshire suffer, even if we are
0:11:32 > 0:11:34stopping flooding?
0:11:34 > 0:11:37So you are saying that money must be spent.
0:11:37 > 0:11:40- What about you?- I agree with Sara.
0:11:40 > 0:11:42Abereiddy is a good example.
0:11:42 > 0:11:48The wall in Abereiddy has gone and half the car park has gone.
0:11:48 > 0:11:51What are the visitors to Abereiddy going to do next year?
0:11:51 > 0:11:54Will any visitors be able to use it?
0:11:54 > 0:12:00- You hope the money will be spent before then?- It won't be spent now.
0:12:00 > 0:12:03The rocks have gone. It is over.
0:12:04 > 0:12:07And we're facing cuts any way.
0:12:07 > 0:12:08Llwyd Edwards.
0:12:08 > 0:12:14I don't think people in the Netherlands would agree with us.
0:12:15 > 0:12:20A large portion of that country is below sea level.
0:12:20 > 0:12:24Let's hear from the geography experts from Ysgol Y Preseli.
0:12:24 > 0:12:28- I'll come to the deputy headmaster. - Assistant head.
0:12:28 > 0:12:32I tend to agree with Sara.
0:12:32 > 0:12:35There are plans in place and every authority in Wales
0:12:35 > 0:12:38is responsible for creating a sea defence strategy
0:12:38 > 0:12:40for the short-term and a long-term.
0:12:40 > 0:12:45The truth is, can they be realised in order to protect the coastline?
0:12:45 > 0:12:49It's a long coastline. We live on an island in the UK.
0:12:49 > 0:12:52There isn't enough money out there to protect these areas.
0:12:52 > 0:12:56We will face difficult decisions in the future.
0:12:56 > 0:12:59How about Dafydd Iwan's radical ideas, like stilts?
0:12:59 > 0:13:03It works in some countries but that would be expensive as well.
0:13:03 > 0:13:05You're obviously an expert.
0:13:05 > 0:13:09How about the idea of carrying out work on higher ground?
0:13:09 > 0:13:12There are two different kinds of floods.
0:13:12 > 0:13:15Floods which effect areas around rivers
0:13:15 > 0:13:19but we've also faced an increase in storms in coastal areas.
0:13:19 > 0:13:23Both have been effecting Wales over the last few months.
0:13:23 > 0:13:27Planning for and controlling those floods takes different strategies.
0:13:27 > 0:13:31- And the trees?- It's a good idea.
0:13:31 > 0:13:33How about you?
0:13:33 > 0:13:37The Netherlands have proved for many years
0:13:37 > 0:13:40that it's possible to overcome nature.
0:13:40 > 0:13:42It's very similar to Somerset.
0:13:42 > 0:13:44One of the problems with Somerset
0:13:44 > 0:13:46is similar to the problem we have with badgers.
0:13:46 > 0:13:49I knew badgers would come up!
0:13:49 > 0:13:52You snuck that in quietly.
0:13:52 > 0:13:55Some people would rather help badgers than farmers.
0:13:55 > 0:14:00In Somerset, it's the birds in wetlands which are protected.
0:14:00 > 0:14:04They have been drowning those areas for many years
0:14:04 > 0:14:06to bring back wetland birds.
0:14:06 > 0:14:11It proves that failing to dredge the rivers has caused problems.
0:14:11 > 0:14:13It's possible to improve things in Somerset
0:14:13 > 0:14:17by using the methods they use in the Netherlands.
0:14:17 > 0:14:21- And you? Did you want to jump in?- No.
0:14:21 > 0:14:26- Lewis Aaron?- I think Dafydd's idea is a little bit extreme ideas.
0:14:26 > 0:14:31As you know, if a family has lived in a house
0:14:31 > 0:14:34or a specific area for over a century,
0:14:34 > 0:14:40as many families have, do you think they are going to move?
0:14:40 > 0:14:43They will want to stay where generations of their family
0:14:43 > 0:14:45have lived.
0:14:45 > 0:14:47But they might have to move.
0:14:47 > 0:14:51As Dafydd Iwan says, difficult decision will have to be made.
0:14:51 > 0:14:56I think we can invest sensibly in creating defences
0:14:56 > 0:14:58rather than moving people.
0:14:58 > 0:15:03Even when money is short? How about you in the colourful shirt?
0:15:03 > 0:15:08We're all concerned about the rain we've had recently
0:15:08 > 0:15:11but if we have a dry summer,
0:15:11 > 0:15:14we'll be concerned about the dry weather.
0:15:14 > 0:15:16Where does this water go?
0:15:16 > 0:15:20We don't take advantage of the water and store it effectively.
0:15:20 > 0:15:22There was a hand up here, on the left.
0:15:22 > 0:15:25One thing we have not discussed
0:15:25 > 0:15:30is holding the water up on high ground before it reaches a river
0:15:30 > 0:15:36and releasing it after the flooding has passed.
0:15:36 > 0:15:40That would allow us to control the water at source,
0:15:40 > 0:15:43in the streams.
0:15:43 > 0:15:46And one more comment.
0:15:46 > 0:15:50Somerset has suffered the most,
0:15:50 > 0:15:56but on the news last night they said that the environmentalists
0:15:56 > 0:15:58have contributed to the problem.
0:15:58 > 0:16:03They have spent £31 million
0:16:03 > 0:16:07on creating a habitat for birds.
0:16:07 > 0:16:12And now they won't spend £6 million to dredge the rivers.
0:16:12 > 0:16:14That is where the problem is.
0:16:14 > 0:16:18Farmers have the same problems. You can't cut a hedge
0:16:18 > 0:16:21or spread the slurry when you like.
0:16:21 > 0:16:24Those people are behind the problem.
0:16:24 > 0:16:29So the £31 million on protecting birds is a waste of money?
0:16:29 > 0:16:31That much is, yes.
0:16:31 > 0:16:34The birds aren't in the water in Somerset.
0:16:34 > 0:16:38They can fly to dry land. The farmer can't.
0:16:38 > 0:16:41I hope you're happy with that discussion, Sara.
0:16:41 > 0:16:43Let's leave it there.
0:16:43 > 0:16:46We need to learn lessons.
0:16:46 > 0:16:49I'm not going back to the panel.
0:16:49 > 0:16:53Let's move on to the second question, from Eurwyn Harries.
0:16:53 > 0:16:57The friends of Cardigan Hospital have put forward a petition
0:16:57 > 0:17:01carrying 11,000 signatures, opposing the closure of the hospital.
0:17:01 > 0:17:04How should the Welsh Government react?
0:17:04 > 0:17:08The friends of Cardigan Hospital have put forward a petition
0:17:08 > 0:17:12carrying 11,000 signatures, opposing the closure of the hospital.
0:17:12 > 0:17:14How should the Welsh Government react?
0:17:14 > 0:17:18As it happens, Eurwyn is the chairman of that group.
0:17:18 > 0:17:21Answer the question.
0:17:21 > 0:17:24There are obviously strong feelings about this issue.
0:17:24 > 0:17:26People do feel strongly about this.
0:17:26 > 0:17:31That's why we've collected 11,000 signatures in four weeks.
0:17:31 > 0:17:35It' the biggest petition the Welsh Assembly has received.
0:17:35 > 0:17:38Almost double what they usually receive.
0:17:38 > 0:17:42The Health Minister Mark Drakeford has to step in
0:17:42 > 0:17:48and order the Hywel Dda Health Board to keep the beds at the hospital.
0:17:48 > 0:17:49But why?
0:17:49 > 0:17:55They are looking to make cuts and have chosen that hospital.
0:17:55 > 0:17:59How can you argue otherwise?
0:17:59 > 0:18:03Cardigan is 30 miles from the bigger hospitals
0:18:03 > 0:18:06like Glangwili, Withybush and Bronglais.
0:18:06 > 0:18:12Because of that 30 miles, patients have been coming back to Cardigan
0:18:12 > 0:18:15when they're not well enough to go home.
0:18:15 > 0:18:18The facility has been very important.
0:18:18 > 0:18:21They are already cutting back on the beds.
0:18:21 > 0:18:24They make decisions and then we are told.
0:18:24 > 0:18:28They haven't consulted on the issue
0:18:28 > 0:18:31before taking these steps.
0:18:31 > 0:18:33I will come back to you.
0:18:33 > 0:18:36Ann Beynon, how would you solve this problem?
0:18:36 > 0:18:41I don't want to claim I understand the problem because I don't.
0:18:41 > 0:18:45But looking at this from the outside,
0:18:45 > 0:18:50closing any hospital or school is very emotional.
0:18:50 > 0:18:55I understand why a community feels it owns a hospital -
0:18:55 > 0:18:57that it's part of the community.
0:18:57 > 0:19:01But the question I would ask is, if you're ill,
0:19:01 > 0:19:04would you rather go to a local hospital
0:19:04 > 0:19:07or somewhere where there are experts
0:19:07 > 0:19:11who are familiar with treating all kinds diseases and so on?
0:19:11 > 0:19:14Somewhere you know you'll get the best treatment.
0:19:14 > 0:19:17I imagine you would say the larger hospital.
0:19:17 > 0:19:20That doesn't mean there's no place for local care
0:19:20 > 0:19:23but what frightens me is that the statistics show
0:19:23 > 0:19:27that many people in our hospitals, particularly the elderly,
0:19:27 > 0:19:29are there for far too long
0:19:29 > 0:19:32and they should be given care at home.
0:19:32 > 0:19:35That would take pressure away from hospitals.
0:19:35 > 0:19:39Or they could go to a hospital like Cardigan.
0:19:39 > 0:19:43It is possible to have local care facilities.
0:19:43 > 0:19:45It doesn't have to be a hospital.
0:19:45 > 0:19:51It's also possible for local GPs to provide that service.
0:19:51 > 0:19:54They may need to develop new skills
0:19:54 > 0:19:58which would allow minor treatments to be done in surgeries.
0:19:58 > 0:20:01I would look at moving some services down the ladder.
0:20:01 > 0:20:04Unfortunately, the money is available.
0:20:04 > 0:20:07You can respond to that in a moment.
0:20:07 > 0:20:09Calum Higgins.
0:20:09 > 0:20:12I want to pick up on the point about consultation.
0:20:12 > 0:20:15That has been a problem for Hywel Dda.
0:20:15 > 0:20:21The minister has said this week that the NHS federation
0:20:21 > 0:20:25is going to speak to Hywel Dda
0:20:25 > 0:20:28about the way they consult.
0:20:28 > 0:20:32People don't have confidence in the health board.
0:20:32 > 0:20:34It didn't consult the people.
0:20:34 > 0:20:37I'm not going to talk about the local issue.
0:20:37 > 0:20:39I don't represent this area.
0:20:39 > 0:20:42What about the principle of closing a hospital like this?
0:20:42 > 0:20:44Modernisation has got to happen
0:20:44 > 0:20:48but we have got to take local people with us
0:20:48 > 0:20:50and the health boards,
0:20:50 > 0:20:56rather than people just being told it's being closed and that's that.
0:20:56 > 0:21:00A consultation process needs to be implemented
0:21:00 > 0:21:03and over the long-term.
0:21:03 > 0:21:05John Davies?
0:21:05 > 0:21:09I think we have to praise this group
0:21:09 > 0:21:11for putting this petition together.
0:21:11 > 0:21:14It was a campaign but it wasn't hard work
0:21:14 > 0:21:18because it happened naturally due to the respect people
0:21:18 > 0:21:22in Pembrokeshire, Ceredigion and Carmarthenshire have
0:21:22 > 0:21:26for the care which is provided in hospitals like Cardigan.
0:21:26 > 0:21:31Small hospitals have a different role to play.
0:21:31 > 0:21:35You go to places like Glangwili Hospital and Morriston Hospital
0:21:35 > 0:21:36for your treatment,
0:21:36 > 0:21:40but you return to these hospitals for your aftercare
0:21:40 > 0:21:42before returning home.
0:21:42 > 0:21:46Some people can't go home immediately without that care.
0:21:46 > 0:21:48So, is this a mistake?
0:21:48 > 0:21:52It's a mistake because this issue has been before us
0:21:52 > 0:21:54for over a decade.
0:21:54 > 0:21:56They have been telling us for ten years
0:21:56 > 0:22:00that there's going to be a new hospital in Cardigan.
0:22:00 > 0:22:03We need Mark Drakeford to tell the health board
0:22:03 > 0:22:07that this money is available - £20 million.
0:22:07 > 0:22:09I happened in Ebbw Vale -
0:22:09 > 0:22:12£34 million for the new Aneurin Bevan Hospital.
0:22:12 > 0:22:16The Government seem to have dragged their feet in this case.
0:22:16 > 0:22:21Are you suggesting that because Ebbw Vale is a Labour seat,
0:22:21 > 0:22:23there's a different attitude?
0:22:23 > 0:22:27- It's possible.- It wasn't a Labour seat at the time.
0:22:27 > 0:22:30It was an Independent seat.
0:22:30 > 0:22:34It became a Labour seat and the work took place during that election.
0:22:34 > 0:22:38We need some good political will and we need a commitment
0:22:38 > 0:22:43to provide that money because people in this area deserve these services.
0:22:43 > 0:22:48John says it's Labour's duty to support hospitals like this one.
0:22:48 > 0:22:53There are plans to build a new hospital. The figure is £20 million.
0:22:53 > 0:22:57That should be the response from the government.
0:22:57 > 0:23:00The problem is the gap between the hospital closing
0:23:00 > 0:23:02and a new hospital.
0:23:02 > 0:23:06We have to make sure there is not much of an effect on local people.
0:23:06 > 0:23:09Yes, at the back?
0:23:09 > 0:23:12I've been a volunteer at Cardigan Hospital
0:23:12 > 0:23:16and I know a lot of excellent work is done there.
0:23:16 > 0:23:20There are people with dementia
0:23:20 > 0:23:26and within 50 years it's predicted that the number of people over 65
0:23:26 > 0:23:28will almost double.
0:23:28 > 0:23:30Small hospitals are very important
0:23:30 > 0:23:32and it's a disgrace that they're closing.
0:23:32 > 0:23:36Yes, Mair?
0:23:36 > 0:23:41I agree. It's a disgrace that they intend to get rid of these beds.
0:23:41 > 0:23:46This provision is very important for the people of Cardigan
0:23:46 > 0:23:48and the surrounding area.
0:23:48 > 0:23:50It's been there for years.
0:23:50 > 0:23:54As has been said, you receive your primary care
0:23:54 > 0:23:57at Glangwili Hospital and son on
0:23:57 > 0:24:01but many people, particularly the elderly,
0:24:01 > 0:24:04are not well enough to return home immediately.
0:24:04 > 0:24:08Care services in the home are not provided everywhere
0:24:08 > 0:24:10and only for a few hours a day.
0:24:10 > 0:24:15The obvious question is, if you are not going to make cuts here,
0:24:15 > 0:24:17where would you make cuts?
0:24:17 > 0:24:20It's going to cost more in the long-term
0:24:20 > 0:24:25because people will be sent home before they are fully recovered
0:24:25 > 0:24:28and they will have to go back to hospital.
0:24:28 > 0:24:33In the long-term it will cost more for the authority.
0:24:33 > 0:24:36The pupil from Bro Gwaun? What do you think?
0:24:36 > 0:24:39The same thing is happening in Withybush.
0:24:39 > 0:24:44They have decided to close the specialist baby unit
0:24:44 > 0:24:48From where I live,
0:24:48 > 0:24:52it takes an hour to get to the nearest hospital.
0:24:52 > 0:24:57I was fortunate to have that unit at Withybush
0:24:57 > 0:25:01because I almost died when I was a baby.
0:25:01 > 0:25:06If it was not for that hospital then I wouldn't be here today.
0:25:06 > 0:25:10If you'd had to go to Glangwili it would have been a problem.
0:25:10 > 0:25:11Over here.
0:25:11 > 0:25:15A woman in a local village was treated yesterday
0:25:15 > 0:25:19and it was pretty serious - breast cancer treatment -
0:25:19 > 0:25:21at Withybush Hospital.
0:25:21 > 0:25:23She has been sent home today.
0:25:23 > 0:25:28She has seven children, the youngest is five, the oldest is 15,
0:25:28 > 0:25:33and the five-year-old only has half a heart.
0:25:33 > 0:25:36If the hospital in Cardigan was open,
0:25:36 > 0:25:40she would be able to go there for two weeks.
0:25:40 > 0:25:43Someone else with experience of Cardigan Hospital.
0:25:43 > 0:25:46They are cutting down on paediatricians
0:25:46 > 0:25:48at Withybush Hospital.
0:25:48 > 0:25:52My daughter went in last night and had to stay overnight
0:25:52 > 0:25:56and it's disgraceful that these hospitals are closing.
0:25:56 > 0:26:02I had triplets and we came back to Withybush from Swansea
0:26:02 > 0:26:04and it was like home to me.
0:26:04 > 0:26:07I was there for a few weeks.
0:26:07 > 0:26:11What about the people in St David's? Where will they go?
0:26:12 > 0:26:15Let's go back to Dafydd Iwan.
0:26:15 > 0:26:17To answer the question,
0:26:17 > 0:26:21of course the government has to listen to local voices.
0:26:21 > 0:26:25I would not like to implement this restructuring.
0:26:25 > 0:26:30But it's a disgrace that a country which spends millions on arms,
0:26:30 > 0:26:34that we're talking about closing hospitals.
0:26:34 > 0:26:37Let me say a few things about the restructuring.
0:26:37 > 0:26:41We all accept that we need centres of expertise
0:26:41 > 0:26:44where the primary treatments are carried out.
0:26:44 > 0:26:46That's where the specialists will be.
0:26:46 > 0:26:50But the mistake health boards are making is over distances.
0:26:50 > 0:26:56They think that a system which works in a city will work in rural Wales.
0:26:56 > 0:27:00If I may give you an example. It's the same in North Wales.
0:27:00 > 0:27:03A woman who has been visiting her husband in hospital
0:27:03 > 0:27:07for six weeks, since before Christmas, twice a day,
0:27:07 > 0:27:10even when she gets a lift in a car.
0:27:10 > 0:27:14Four hours a day, maybe five or six on a bus.
0:27:14 > 0:27:17She was told yesterday that her husband will be moved
0:27:17 > 0:27:21to Bryn Beryl, the local hospital near Pwllheli.
0:27:21 > 0:27:25That will cut down her travelling from four or five hours a day
0:27:25 > 0:27:27to an hour or so.
0:27:27 > 0:27:31Imagine the difference that makes to those people.
0:27:31 > 0:27:34But how do we afford it?
0:27:34 > 0:27:37I know you mentioned the fact that we spend on weapons,
0:27:37 > 0:27:40but that's not going to happen in the real world.
0:27:40 > 0:27:43We do spend on that
0:27:43 > 0:27:47but we can make savings by having a local service
0:27:47 > 0:27:51rather than always travelling.
0:27:51 > 0:27:54Not only is it easier for people
0:27:54 > 0:27:57but there are savings to be made.
0:27:57 > 0:28:01Essentially, you are asking the Labour Government
0:28:01 > 0:28:05to earmark more money for health and to make it more of a priority.
0:28:05 > 0:28:10A growing elderly population means we'll have to spend more.
0:28:10 > 0:28:14- Ann.- I think there's a fundamental problem
0:28:14 > 0:28:18in terms of the number of people who go to hospital who don't need to go
0:28:18 > 0:28:21and people who can't return home from hospital.
0:28:21 > 0:28:24Part of the problem is that the NHS in Wales
0:28:24 > 0:28:27has not used technology effectively.
0:28:27 > 0:28:30It's possible to deal with some patients...
0:28:30 > 0:28:33For example, people on dialysis can be treated at home.
0:28:33 > 0:28:35There's an excellent scheme on Anglesey
0:28:35 > 0:28:38where people who need dialysis can stay at home
0:28:38 > 0:28:42and the nurse can keep an eye on them from a distance.
0:28:42 > 0:28:46That saves thousands of pounds but that does not happen enough.
0:28:46 > 0:28:49There's a lack of creative thinking.
0:28:49 > 0:28:54If you go into hospital, you can't even use things like iPads.
0:28:54 > 0:28:56That doesn't make sense.
0:28:56 > 0:28:58Calum Higgins.
0:28:58 > 0:29:04On a broader point, the Williams Commission has come back and said
0:29:04 > 0:29:07we need more scrutiny of local health boards.
0:29:07 > 0:29:11That is a point the government is going to react to.
0:29:11 > 0:29:15I hope they will change the decision-making system...
0:29:15 > 0:29:18After 15 years of a Labour government in the Assembly,
0:29:18 > 0:29:20shouldn't that be happening already?
0:29:20 > 0:29:25The point of the Commission was to look at the public sector.
0:29:25 > 0:29:27I hope they will act on that.
0:29:27 > 0:29:31I think the majority of people want to return home
0:29:31 > 0:29:34after having hospital treatment if it's possible
0:29:34 > 0:29:37as long as the care is up to the same standard.
0:29:37 > 0:29:40In terms of technology and modernisation,
0:29:40 > 0:29:42that can happen more and more.
0:29:42 > 0:29:46When the health boards were created five or six years ago
0:29:46 > 0:29:51by merging the trusts, and the whole point was to cut the cost costs.
0:29:51 > 0:29:55Not a single manager lost their job
0:29:55 > 0:29:59because of the Assembly policy of zero redundancies.
0:29:59 > 0:30:02That is the heart of the problem.
0:30:02 > 0:30:05You asked Dafydd where savings can be made,
0:30:05 > 0:30:08they have to come from management.
0:30:08 > 0:30:12How many people do you see around hospitals with a piece of paper
0:30:12 > 0:30:15in their hand rather than a stethoscope?
0:30:15 > 0:30:20You have to make cuts at the top as well.
0:30:20 > 0:30:24And we need a better understanding between the Health Service
0:30:24 > 0:30:27and the local authorities.
0:30:27 > 0:30:31They don't seem to be working in tandem at the moment.
0:30:31 > 0:30:33It's time for a short break.
0:30:33 > 0:30:36Join us in a few minutes after the adverts.
0:30:50 > 0:30:52Welcome back.
0:30:52 > 0:30:56You are watching this week's edition of Pawb a'i Farn from Crymych.
0:30:56 > 0:30:59We're joined by people from this part of Pembrokeshire.
0:30:59 > 0:31:03Let's go to our third question. We've heard from Tomos Evans already.
0:31:03 > 0:31:06What's your question?
0:31:06 > 0:31:09How do we create high-quality jobs
0:31:09 > 0:31:12in order to keep young people in this area?
0:31:12 > 0:31:16My family has lived in Pembrokeshire since 1780,
0:31:16 > 0:31:18but I'm concerned I won't be able to.
0:31:18 > 0:31:19Thank you.
0:31:19 > 0:31:22How do we create high-quality jobs
0:31:22 > 0:31:25in order to keep young people in this area?
0:31:25 > 0:31:29Tomos' family has lived in Pembrokeshire since 1780,
0:31:29 > 0:31:34but he's worried he won't be able to stay here.
0:31:34 > 0:31:36Dafydd Iwan?
0:31:36 > 0:31:39- It's a fundamental question. - While we have Pawb a'i Farn,
0:31:39 > 0:31:42I think we will always be discussing this question.
0:31:42 > 0:31:45Are you suggesting we've heard it before?
0:31:45 > 0:31:47I've answered it before.
0:31:47 > 0:31:51But I don't blame you for asking it.
0:31:51 > 0:31:53This is one of the most important questions.
0:31:53 > 0:31:58How can we keep more young people in Mid, West and North Wales?
0:31:58 > 0:32:00It's the perpetual question.
0:32:00 > 0:32:03More and more of our children, they stay in Wales,
0:32:03 > 0:32:06but they move to Cardiff.
0:32:06 > 0:32:09As they settle down and have children,
0:32:09 > 0:32:12their relatives move closer to the big cities as well.
0:32:12 > 0:32:16- Does that make you angry? - It does.
0:32:16 > 0:32:19I want to make two points.
0:32:19 > 0:32:21It is important.
0:32:21 > 0:32:24Back in the 1970s, many of my generation deliberately
0:32:24 > 0:32:30moved from Cardiff back to our rural communities
0:32:30 > 0:32:34and started businesses because we realised how important it was.
0:32:34 > 0:32:40My first point is that national bodies can make a difference
0:32:40 > 0:32:42by moving jobs away from Cardiff.
0:32:42 > 0:32:46S4C are seriously considering doing that.
0:32:46 > 0:32:52I think bodies like the BBC and BT and other government departments
0:32:52 > 0:32:58need to move good jobs from Cardiff back to West Wales, Pembrokeshire,
0:32:58 > 0:33:01Mid Wales and to North Wales.
0:33:01 > 0:33:04That is part of the answer.
0:33:04 > 0:33:07Thankfully the message is getting through.
0:33:07 > 0:33:11The second point is something we have started in Gwynedd
0:33:11 > 0:33:15and is starting in other counties, is planting into the minds
0:33:15 > 0:33:21of young people that there are opportunities in the local area.
0:33:21 > 0:33:24As one example, outdoor activities.
0:33:24 > 0:33:28Those jobs are being filled by people from England for years
0:33:28 > 0:33:32and now we're starting to see the possibilities.
0:33:32 > 0:33:35In the mountains, sailing, farming, tourism and so on.
0:33:35 > 0:33:37Good jobs.
0:33:37 > 0:33:42We need to create entrepreneurship and take every opportunity.
0:33:42 > 0:33:45I'd say those two things are a big part of the answer.
0:33:45 > 0:33:49- Will BT be moving to West Wales? - I don't think we need to.
0:33:49 > 0:33:55We have employed another 284 people in Wales in the last 18 months.
0:33:55 > 0:33:58That's on top of the 3,500 we already employ.
0:33:58 > 0:34:01- Where?- All over Wales.
0:34:01 > 0:34:06104 of those new jobs have stemmed directly from our contract
0:34:06 > 0:34:10with the Welsh Government to provide a broadband network.
0:34:10 > 0:34:12That work is going on now.
0:34:12 > 0:34:15One of our senior officials lives in Anglesey and he works from home
0:34:15 > 0:34:18because she now has broadband.
0:34:18 > 0:34:22By the summer of 2016 there will be broadband in Pembrokeshire.
0:34:22 > 0:34:24It's not here at the moment.
0:34:24 > 0:34:29So it is very difficult for anyone who wants to work from home.
0:34:29 > 0:34:34- It will be here by the summer of 2016.- You heard it here first.
0:34:34 > 0:34:36I can promise that. And it will be vital.
0:34:36 > 0:34:40In places like Cornwall, people are able to stay at home
0:34:40 > 0:34:44and create their own businesses or work for companies like BT,
0:34:44 > 0:34:46but work in rural areas.
0:34:46 > 0:34:49Tomos, can you answer your own question?
0:34:49 > 0:34:52What I would like to do in the future
0:34:52 > 0:34:57is to study a drama course somewhere because I want to become an actor.
0:34:57 > 0:35:02There are no jobs with the BBC, for example, in this area.
0:35:02 > 0:35:07But don't you have to accept that you'll have to leave Pembrokeshire?
0:35:07 > 0:35:11- You can't have every job in the local area.- I realise that.
0:35:11 > 0:35:17Many people of my age will decide to move from this area
0:35:17 > 0:35:22to find jobs and then people from England, perhaps,
0:35:22 > 0:35:26who have decided to retire, will move into the community.
0:35:26 > 0:35:30Let's go to the back and some girls from Ysgol Y Preseli.
0:35:30 > 0:35:34In Pembrokeshire, the options are, finding a job in the public sector,
0:35:34 > 0:35:37agriculture or tourism.
0:35:37 > 0:35:41S4C should set an example like they did with Y Gwyll in Aberystwyth
0:35:41 > 0:35:46and more television programmes should be filmed in rural areas.
0:35:46 > 0:35:48And with broadband,
0:35:48 > 0:35:53when broadband is improved, there is nothing to stop people
0:35:53 > 0:35:55working for the Government from home.
0:35:55 > 0:35:59We need to stop this idea that if you want a successful future
0:35:59 > 0:36:02you don't have to move to big cities like Cardiff.
0:36:02 > 0:36:05There are other options for people like us.
0:36:05 > 0:36:07Your friend?
0:36:07 > 0:36:10I think it's less of a problem than it has been.
0:36:10 > 0:36:14New technology allows people to work from home.
0:36:14 > 0:36:17Agriculture is developing.
0:36:17 > 0:36:20As the demand for food increases,
0:36:20 > 0:36:24I think we'll see more jobs in agriculture.
0:36:24 > 0:36:27And maybe other different kinds of jobs.
0:36:27 > 0:36:29Ilan.
0:36:29 > 0:36:33There is a lack of variety of apprenticeships on offer,
0:36:33 > 0:36:36particularly in Pembrokeshire.
0:36:36 > 0:36:41You only really get apprenticeships in engineering,
0:36:41 > 0:36:46science, perhaps, in Valero or Kinetic.
0:36:46 > 0:36:51That is an obstacle if you want to work in other sectors,
0:36:51 > 0:36:55and people have to leave because they can't do what they want to.
0:36:55 > 0:36:57Down in the front?
0:36:57 > 0:37:01We should be proud of the fact that we have a strong tradition
0:37:01 > 0:37:04of entrepreneurship in Pembrokeshire.
0:37:04 > 0:37:08We often see Wales as being pretty quiet in the field.
0:37:08 > 0:37:11The statistics show that the majority of businesses
0:37:11 > 0:37:14in Pembrokeshire are family businesses.
0:37:14 > 0:37:18People learn a craft and then employ two or three people.
0:37:18 > 0:37:22Families also set up companies in the tourism industry.
0:37:22 > 0:37:25We don't want too much of that, of course.
0:37:25 > 0:37:28One of the best examples in this area is Mansel Davies.
0:37:28 > 0:37:32The viewers have all seen the lorries on the roads.
0:37:32 > 0:37:35They employ 200 people.
0:37:35 > 0:37:38It's strange that a successful company like that
0:37:38 > 0:37:41is based so far from the motorway.
0:37:41 > 0:37:43You also have farmers.
0:37:43 > 0:37:46there are people here tonight who have set up businesses.
0:37:46 > 0:37:50There's one next to me who turned his hand to being a garage owner,
0:37:50 > 0:37:55he's run a Welsh book shop, he now specialises in rearing cattle.
0:37:55 > 0:37:57Can he speak for himself?
0:37:57 > 0:38:00It's all about being entrepreneurial.
0:38:00 > 0:38:04It's important that we make the most of what we have.
0:38:04 > 0:38:07Tourism and agriculture are our main industries.
0:38:07 > 0:38:11Agriculture provides good jobs.
0:38:11 > 0:38:15You have vets, agronomists, auctioneers...
0:38:16 > 0:38:21What's happening is that we're losing core people like farmers
0:38:21 > 0:38:23who create these jobs.
0:38:23 > 0:38:28I would advise young people not to look to the Assembly
0:38:28 > 0:38:31to provide jobs, you have to create them yourselves.
0:38:31 > 0:38:34If you move away, you can come back
0:38:34 > 0:38:40and if you have a high-value product you will do well.
0:38:40 > 0:38:43There are a lot of hands up on this.
0:38:43 > 0:38:45I'll come to you first.
0:38:45 > 0:38:49I would blame the pressure on young people to go to university.
0:38:49 > 0:38:55Almost all children are expected to go to university.
0:38:55 > 0:39:00Many of them look for public sector jobs which pay better,
0:39:00 > 0:39:04but they are all admin jobs.
0:39:04 > 0:39:08We're going back to the same problem as Cardigan Hospital.
0:39:08 > 0:39:11We need people who can work,
0:39:11 > 0:39:14we need more apprenticeships to provide jobs.
0:39:14 > 0:39:17Let's go to the headmaster, Mike Davies.
0:39:17 > 0:39:21Is there too much emphasis on a university education?
0:39:21 > 0:39:25And are schools helping people to see the opportunities around them?
0:39:25 > 0:39:29I would say that schools prepare young people well for the future.
0:39:29 > 0:39:34A large percentage do go to university, but not everyone does.
0:39:34 > 0:39:37I agree with what Ilan said.
0:39:37 > 0:39:41There are obstacles in the way for schools
0:39:41 > 0:39:45because we want to give children an experience of the workplace.
0:39:45 > 0:39:49There are very few apprenticeships available.
0:39:49 > 0:39:53What happens then is there are fewer options available
0:39:53 > 0:39:58and, as a result, they decide to go to university.
0:39:58 > 0:40:00At the back?
0:40:01 > 0:40:04What we need to do now is invest in two things -
0:40:04 > 0:40:08jobs which are more specific to what children are doing now,
0:40:08 > 0:40:14jobs like engineering and agriculture and tourism.
0:40:14 > 0:40:18But the other thing that needs to be done, as has been said before,
0:40:18 > 0:40:24is invest in new technology and expand broadband.
0:40:24 > 0:40:28I know people who are working on kilobytes now
0:40:28 > 0:40:30instead of the meg that is needed.
0:40:30 > 0:40:34I know you want to go to university. But will you come back afterwards?
0:40:34 > 0:40:37It depends on where the jobs are.
0:40:37 > 0:40:39It depends on whether jobs are available
0:40:39 > 0:40:44and on whether I can work from home and it depends on
0:40:44 > 0:40:48- whether there are better jobs available in other places.- Fine.
0:40:48 > 0:40:50I'd like to hear from two other panellists.
0:40:50 > 0:40:53The new technology is very important.
0:40:53 > 0:40:57- Can we hear from the two who have not spoken yet.- Thank you.
0:40:57 > 0:41:01Many of my friends went to Cardiff University
0:41:01 > 0:41:06and didn't come back because that's where the public sector jobs are.
0:41:06 > 0:41:09And central government.
0:41:09 > 0:41:14Those jobs need to move from Cardiff towards the west.
0:41:14 > 0:41:19I would welcome a stall in Carmarthen to welcome S4C.
0:41:19 > 0:41:24Young people want jobs there and also, back to the private sector,
0:41:24 > 0:41:30we want to encourage entrepreneurial businesses,
0:41:30 > 0:41:34young people in areas like Carmarthen and Pembrokeshire
0:41:34 > 0:41:39and encourage them to use the Welsh language.
0:41:39 > 0:41:42If you have language skills, come back
0:41:42 > 0:41:48and start a bilingual business and that will help the local economy.
0:41:48 > 0:41:49John, will you close?
0:41:49 > 0:41:55Very simply, we have to use the resources we have, both human
0:41:55 > 0:41:59and land. Agriculture and tourism are essential.
0:41:59 > 0:42:02And that's what the question referred to.
0:42:02 > 0:42:07We need to create jobs, but not useless ones.
0:42:07 > 0:42:10They have to be jobs with purpose, which is
0:42:10 > 0:42:13valuable to our local economies, because if you have a purpose, there
0:42:13 > 0:42:19is cultural sustainability and the language will be sustained as well.
0:42:19 > 0:42:24We all know the old saying about the language being used.
0:42:24 > 0:42:25The language needs work.
0:42:25 > 0:42:29And Mansel Davies is one example amongst many where language
0:42:29 > 0:42:31and work coexist happily.
0:42:31 > 0:42:34The other two are keen to talk.
0:42:34 > 0:42:38We are employing apprentices in BT at the moment.
0:42:38 > 0:42:43- This is not an advert for BT. - Especially women in engineering.
0:42:43 > 0:42:46- One sentence, Dafydd.- One sentence!
0:42:46 > 0:42:48We shouldn't put ourselves down too much.
0:42:48 > 0:42:51We have an example in Pembrokeshire in Narberth of a small town
0:42:51 > 0:42:55which has rediscovered itself and is a fantastic shopping centre.
0:42:55 > 0:42:59- We need more vision like that. - An advert for Narberth as well.
0:42:59 > 0:43:04That discussion is over. Let's move on. But first, let's have a break.
0:43:04 > 0:43:06Join us in two minutes.
0:43:21 > 0:43:27Welcome back to Crymych. I hope you're enjoying the programme.
0:43:27 > 0:43:30Let's move on to our next question, from John R Davies.
0:43:30 > 0:43:34What does the panel think about the payment given to Pembrokeshire
0:43:34 > 0:43:36Council's Chief Executive Officer
0:43:36 > 0:43:41- and which has been criticised by the Wales Audit Office.- Thank you, John.
0:43:41 > 0:43:44What does the panel think about the payment given to Pembrokeshire
0:43:44 > 0:43:47Council's Chief Executive Officer
0:43:47 > 0:43:50and which has been criticised by the Wales Audit Office.
0:43:50 > 0:43:54We have heard about that this week.
0:43:54 > 0:43:57Calum, would you stand on this issue, as a Pembrokeshire
0:43:57 > 0:44:02councillor who has also had to face the same problem?
0:44:02 > 0:44:06It has raised serious questions and the public want answers.
0:44:06 > 0:44:09That is why we are going to have a special full meeting
0:44:09 > 0:44:13and the only thing on the agenda will be the Audit Commission's
0:44:13 > 0:44:16reports and we will be discussing it.
0:44:16 > 0:44:20People on the backbenches will have to ask the questions
0:44:20 > 0:44:23that the electorate wants them to ask.
0:44:23 > 0:44:25What questions will you ask?
0:44:25 > 0:44:26Why this happened.
0:44:26 > 0:44:31What was the process followed to reach those decisions.
0:44:31 > 0:44:35And questions about the law.
0:44:35 > 0:44:38The Council has one side, and the Audit Office has the other
0:44:38 > 0:44:41and people on the backbenches like myself,
0:44:41 > 0:44:46and I am a new member so I was not there when the decision was made,
0:44:46 > 0:44:47so it is a new thing to me
0:44:47 > 0:44:50and I will have to ask questions about the legality of this
0:44:50 > 0:44:52and how we are going to move on,
0:44:52 > 0:44:57because we have enough to do in local government during hard times.
0:44:57 > 0:45:00Is the Labour group going to ask Mark James to stand down
0:45:00 > 0:45:03while you discuss the matter?
0:45:03 > 0:45:07The auditor has said that it is illegal.
0:45:07 > 0:45:11Yes and that's why we are having a full meeting to discuss
0:45:11 > 0:45:12the matter in public.
0:45:12 > 0:45:15That's important and it's important that we ask the questions
0:45:15 > 0:45:17the public want us to ask.
0:45:17 > 0:45:23Let's go over to John, a County Councillor in Pembrokeshire.
0:45:23 > 0:45:25The payment has been made as a cash payment to the
0:45:25 > 0:45:29Chief Executive in Carmarthenshire and in Pembrokeshire,
0:45:29 > 0:45:33rather than a pension contribution by the County Council. John?
0:45:33 > 0:45:38The fact is, not only was it made specifically to the Chief Executive,
0:45:38 > 0:45:42it was made as part of a policy available to the chief officers.
0:45:42 > 0:45:45So it would affect around 25 people.
0:45:45 > 0:45:48To be factually correct, two of the payments were made,
0:45:48 > 0:45:50not just the one to the chief executive.
0:45:50 > 0:45:52It was decided around two and half years ago.
0:45:52 > 0:45:55- I was part of that process. - You made the decision?
0:45:55 > 0:45:59- I was part of that, as leader at the time.- And you were happy with it?
0:45:59 > 0:46:02And it was decided unanimously by the committee,
0:46:02 > 0:46:03and they were Conservatives,
0:46:03 > 0:46:07Labour and Independent group members represented in that meeting.
0:46:07 > 0:46:10It was decided to allow it on condition
0:46:10 > 0:46:12that there would not be extra costs.
0:46:12 > 0:46:16The auditor has suggested that, in his opinion, there is an
0:46:16 > 0:46:18additional long-term cost...
0:46:18 > 0:46:22- The auditor has suggested that it is illegal.- He also suggests that.
0:46:22 > 0:46:23But the fact is,
0:46:23 > 0:46:27both counties have legal advice that says something different.
0:46:27 > 0:46:30So I would suggest that if I was still leader,
0:46:30 > 0:46:35we need an enquiry that is independent.
0:46:35 > 0:46:38The Crown Prosecution Service is looking at it
0:46:38 > 0:46:43and I would welcome that enquiry because it would be unbiased,
0:46:43 > 0:46:44it would deal with the facts
0:46:44 > 0:46:49and both councils would be able to learn from this.
0:46:49 > 0:46:52So it is possible that you accept that a mistake has been made.
0:46:52 > 0:46:53Of course a mistake has been made.
0:46:53 > 0:46:56We have to learn that nobody is perfect.
0:46:56 > 0:46:58In retrospect,
0:46:58 > 0:47:01we can see that it was not one of the wisest decisions.
0:47:01 > 0:47:02Thank you, John. Ann Beynon.
0:47:02 > 0:47:06What concerns me is that because we can communicate
0:47:06 > 0:47:09so quickly these days on the Internet and that rumours start
0:47:09 > 0:47:10and move so fast,
0:47:10 > 0:47:13they have been several instances of this happening and that
0:47:13 > 0:47:20people are misjudged by the public before a fair hearing has occurred.
0:47:20 > 0:47:23So I would suggest that we need to be careful because...
0:47:23 > 0:47:26- Do you doubt the auditor's word? - No, no.
0:47:26 > 0:47:28I'm just saying we need to take care,
0:47:28 > 0:47:32because it's happened with Gwent Police this week.
0:47:32 > 0:47:37A policeman was sacked, and he had a terrible time because the press
0:47:37 > 0:47:41had picked up on the story, and so we need to take care.
0:47:41 > 0:47:44- Ann, thank you very much. I can't take care.- I only have two minutes.
0:47:44 > 0:47:47- You.- It is terrible that we are discussing such
0:47:47 > 0:47:49a thing in the first place.
0:47:49 > 0:47:52I can summarise it for you in two proverbs.
0:47:52 > 0:47:55"There is no medication for greed."
0:47:55 > 0:47:59And more importantly for all of us here tonight,
0:47:59 > 0:48:04- "The fish rots from the head down." - Right, that is the message.
0:48:04 > 0:48:10- What about you?- Can we have an understanding of what has happened?
0:48:10 > 0:48:12John says it was policy.
0:48:12 > 0:48:18What really happened, that money came out, and how did it come out?
0:48:18 > 0:48:21Thank you. Gwilym Phillips, quickly?
0:48:21 > 0:48:25I understand that this meeting in 2011 took place in the
0:48:25 > 0:48:28Chief Executive's office and that the Chief Executive was there
0:48:28 > 0:48:33himself, taking part in the decision. That is terrible.
0:48:33 > 0:48:35Is that true, John Davies?
0:48:35 > 0:48:38He was there but he was not part of the decision. There is a difference.
0:48:40 > 0:48:43I think it is a mistake.
0:48:43 > 0:48:50The important events have been given a lot of media coverage
0:48:50 > 0:48:55for months, for a year or two and the opposition
0:48:55 > 0:49:00in Carmarthenshire has said that what happened is definitely wrong.
0:49:00 > 0:49:04- Thank you very much. Dafydd Iwan. - The auditor has made a decision.
0:49:04 > 0:49:08There is no need to be careful any more. A major mistake has been made.
0:49:08 > 0:49:11It was a way to avoid paying tax.
0:49:11 > 0:49:14Did you know that seven local government Chief Executives
0:49:14 > 0:49:17in Wales are paid more than the Prime Minister.
0:49:17 > 0:49:22It is just greed. They want money without paying tax on it.
0:49:22 > 0:49:26Panellists, thank you very much, and the audience as well.
0:49:26 > 0:49:31The programme is over. Next week we'll be in Aberystwyth. Goodbye.