0:00:24 > 0:00:28On our panel tonight, the Conservative MP for Montgomeryshire,
0:00:28 > 0:00:30Glyn Davies.
0:00:30 > 0:00:34The Ceredigion AM and the former Rural Affairs Minister, Elin Jones.
0:00:34 > 0:00:37A member of the current Labour Government,
0:00:37 > 0:00:40Natural Resources Minister, Alun Davies.
0:00:40 > 0:00:43And to join the three politicians,
0:00:43 > 0:00:47a lecturer specialising in politics, Dr Elin Royles.
0:01:02 > 0:01:06Welcome to this week's Pawb a'i Farn.
0:01:06 > 0:01:09We are still travelling whatever the weather.
0:01:09 > 0:01:13For the next hour, we will be discussing matters
0:01:13 > 0:01:16and there's plenty to talk about in Aberystwyth
0:01:16 > 0:01:21with people from Ceredigion and they say they can't wait.
0:01:21 > 0:01:26We have some sad news, we won't be broadcasting next week,
0:01:26 > 0:01:28but we'll be back in two weeks from Brecon.
0:01:28 > 0:01:30We have had several questions this week
0:01:30 > 0:01:34and let's hope we can discuss a few of them.
0:01:34 > 0:01:38Let's start with a question by Hywel Griffiths in the back.
0:01:38 > 0:01:39What's your question?
0:01:41 > 0:01:44After the storms and floods, is it time to accept that
0:01:44 > 0:01:48we can't afford to live safely in certain areas?
0:01:48 > 0:01:50Thank you. The question of the week.
0:01:50 > 0:01:53After the storms and floods, is it time to accept that
0:01:53 > 0:01:58we can't afford to live safely in certain areas?
0:01:58 > 0:02:00Alun Davies?
0:02:00 > 0:02:02How do you answer that question?
0:02:02 > 0:02:06First of all, we must sympathise with those who've been suffering
0:02:06 > 0:02:11and also we should be grateful to everybody who's been
0:02:11 > 0:02:15working for communities wherever they are.
0:02:15 > 0:02:18I have visited several communities which have
0:02:18 > 0:02:22suffered during these storms and floods.
0:02:22 > 0:02:26I've seen the work of the emergency services, NRW and local authorities.
0:02:26 > 0:02:31Everybody has been working together and ensured that as communities,
0:02:31 > 0:02:35we haven't suffered as badly as we might have.
0:02:35 > 0:02:38I am going to be announcing a report in the morning
0:02:38 > 0:02:42which has been looking at the Welsh coast
0:02:42 > 0:02:45and looking at what has happened.
0:02:45 > 0:02:49I think we need to be looking at protecting our communities better.
0:02:49 > 0:02:53I understand the purpose of the question,
0:02:53 > 0:02:56but at the moment I think it's important
0:02:56 > 0:03:00to look after people and their homes and communities.
0:03:02 > 0:03:05The lessons that have been learned
0:03:05 > 0:03:08is that the investments we have made in Wales
0:03:08 > 0:03:11have made sure that communities have been safer
0:03:11 > 0:03:13because of this investment.
0:03:13 > 0:03:16In Wales, we have not seen the same chaos as in England
0:03:16 > 0:03:20and we have not seen the same kind of damage
0:03:20 > 0:03:22that we have seen in England.
0:03:24 > 0:03:27So you think more money should be spent,
0:03:27 > 0:03:31or should we accept that we have to step back
0:03:31 > 0:03:33just as a television programme suggested this week.
0:03:33 > 0:03:36Places like Friog in Meirionnydd.
0:03:36 > 0:03:39I think that programme was misleading.
0:03:39 > 0:03:44Are you suggesting there aren't such plans?
0:03:45 > 0:03:47Some councils are looking towards the future.
0:03:47 > 0:03:50I am considering the situation.
0:03:50 > 0:03:53I have not made any decisions as the programme suggested.
0:03:53 > 0:03:57We have not cut back on flood investment
0:03:57 > 0:03:59as they have done in England.
0:03:59 > 0:04:02We have been investing and will continue to do so.
0:04:02 > 0:04:05- I'll say this to you tonight... - Quickly.
0:04:05 > 0:04:10As a minister, I will ensure that flood defences are paid
0:04:10 > 0:04:15for this year and next year
0:04:15 > 0:04:18and every year until the next election.
0:04:18 > 0:04:21We will continue to invest.
0:04:21 > 0:04:25We have invested £240 million so far and there'll be European money.
0:04:25 > 0:04:30We're going to continue to ensure safety across the country.
0:04:30 > 0:04:31Elin Jones.
0:04:31 > 0:04:35The weather we've seen over the last two months
0:04:35 > 0:04:38and over the last few years has been terrible,
0:04:38 > 0:04:41and unlike recent weather patterns.
0:04:41 > 0:04:44I think everyone accepts that.
0:04:44 > 0:04:48What surprises me is that it is not the same areas
0:04:48 > 0:04:51which are affected every year.
0:04:51 > 0:04:56Aberystwyth has had a bad time recently.
0:04:56 > 0:04:58Ceredigion has been hit badly.
0:04:58 > 0:05:03But these areas are not traditionally hit by bad weather.
0:05:03 > 0:05:05We know of some areas, Borth is one.
0:05:05 > 0:05:09Sea defences have been built in Borth and Aberaeron.
0:05:09 > 0:05:12And it seems they have worked?
0:05:12 > 0:05:15People give the impression that those defences have...
0:05:19 > 0:05:23..have reinforced the sea defences.
0:05:23 > 0:05:28So there is room to be look to defend Aberystwyth better
0:05:28 > 0:05:31and the same in other places.
0:05:31 > 0:05:35But at the same time, we need to look at taking steps
0:05:35 > 0:05:39to lessen climate change because that is affecting us
0:05:39 > 0:05:41but that is a long-term matter.
0:05:41 > 0:05:47And we also need to look at how we control water levels in the rivers
0:05:47 > 0:05:51which run off the mountains.
0:05:51 > 0:05:55It flows from the Severn here right in to England.
0:05:55 > 0:06:00We need to look at the way we work with farmers in those areas
0:06:00 > 0:06:05to work on that land,
0:06:05 > 0:06:08which will help to reduce the water
0:06:08 > 0:06:12that comes down into the rivers.
0:06:13 > 0:06:17Hywel, how do you answer this question as a geographer?
0:06:17 > 0:06:20Do we need to work on the land, the highlands
0:06:20 > 0:06:24to make sure that water doesn't come down so fast?
0:06:24 > 0:06:27It does make sense and it will be more effective
0:06:27 > 0:06:33to work on higher ground rather than as some people have suggested,
0:06:33 > 0:06:35just dredging rivers,
0:06:35 > 0:06:38which will lead to further problems in the long term.
0:06:38 > 0:06:42Although they have been suggesting that in Somerset.
0:06:44 > 0:06:47In the long term, that would create further problems.
0:06:47 > 0:06:50We should look at the higher ground.
0:06:50 > 0:06:52Thank you. Glyn Davies?
0:06:52 > 0:06:57Like Alun, I sympathise with people
0:06:57 > 0:07:00after what's happened,
0:07:00 > 0:07:02but it's an interesting question.
0:07:06 > 0:07:11But at the same time, I'm not prepared to say that it is time
0:07:11 > 0:07:17to stop dealing with problems on the land.
0:07:17 > 0:07:20I know things have been changing historically
0:07:20 > 0:07:23and sometimes the sea takes away
0:07:23 > 0:07:27some of the land throughout Britain.
0:07:27 > 0:07:31But I think, it is the best way to deal
0:07:31 > 0:07:35with this problem in Wales and in England.
0:07:37 > 0:07:40The events that have happened in Somerset,
0:07:42 > 0:07:46we've never seen anything like that before.
0:07:49 > 0:07:51We haven't been dredging enough.
0:07:52 > 0:07:56And also I want to see the effect on Plynlimon
0:07:56 > 0:07:58and farms in Montgomeryshire
0:07:58 > 0:08:02to stop water coming from the high ground.
0:08:02 > 0:08:05We need to look at things like that and be very careful
0:08:05 > 0:08:08and see what the best way forward is.
0:08:09 > 0:08:10Elin Royles?
0:08:13 > 0:08:15I'm not a politician on this panel,
0:08:15 > 0:08:18so I think we need to be planning in the long term.
0:08:18 > 0:08:21Politicians are thinking of political cycle.
0:08:21 > 0:08:23There is a risk in thinking about that too much.
0:08:23 > 0:08:27So you don't think Alun Davies is looking far enough into the future?
0:08:27 > 0:08:29It's the nature of the job.
0:08:29 > 0:08:31Climate change is actually here right now.
0:08:31 > 0:08:34We've seen it in Wales over the past few yeas.
0:08:34 > 0:08:36It's a terrible thing.
0:08:36 > 0:08:39It's not something that just happens in Africa.
0:08:39 > 0:08:43We need to adapt to climate change, plan into the future.
0:08:43 > 0:08:46We have to make some brave decisions.
0:08:46 > 0:08:49I'd say the plans by Gwynedd Council to pull back,
0:08:49 > 0:08:52they are awful and they're painful
0:08:52 > 0:08:54but those are the kinds of steps we need to take
0:08:54 > 0:08:57to deal with the level of investment that's needed.
0:08:57 > 0:09:02We need £135 million every year until 2035
0:09:03 > 0:09:07and the level of investment that we need will only go up.
0:09:07 > 0:09:09Can we protect everywhere?
0:09:09 > 0:09:12But the other side of this is to allay fears.
0:09:12 > 0:09:18Climate change doesn't just affect us in coastal areas.
0:09:18 > 0:09:22We also have responsibility to work on this.
0:09:22 > 0:09:26Have we been building too much on the land where we shouldn't have
0:09:26 > 0:09:28- been building?- Yes.
0:09:28 > 0:09:30We've been building on flood planes.
0:09:30 > 0:09:33We need to think again about planning
0:09:33 > 0:09:38and be braver as politicians in terms of moving towards
0:09:38 > 0:09:41renewable energy, and can I dare to mention wind power,
0:09:41 > 0:09:44and preparing for change.
0:09:44 > 0:09:47I don't think you can say that in Glyn Davies company!
0:09:47 > 0:09:50I was surprised to hear the moratorium this week.
0:09:50 > 0:09:53We need to have long-term vision.
0:09:53 > 0:09:56Alun Davies, come back in.
0:09:56 > 0:10:00Have planning laws been flouted too much since the days
0:10:00 > 0:10:02when Carwyn Jones we in the job?
0:10:02 > 0:10:06The rules have changed and were changed a few years ago.
0:10:06 > 0:10:08So it was wrong as it was?
0:10:08 > 0:10:11So it was wrong as it was?
0:10:11 > 0:10:17The rules have changed and I think that has been acknowledged in Wales.
0:10:17 > 0:10:22One of the things that I regret is going to meetings with Defra
0:10:22 > 0:10:26where they denied that climate change is happening at all.
0:10:26 > 0:10:30And ministers in England
0:10:30 > 0:10:35wouldn't meet the Chief Scientist to discuss climate.
0:10:35 > 0:10:37That's how it is over there.
0:10:37 > 0:10:41In Wales we do accept that and we accept that climate change
0:10:41 > 0:10:45is happening and we accept the responsibility.
0:10:45 > 0:10:49We accept our responsibility to respond to that.
0:10:49 > 0:10:52I agree with what Elin has said.
0:10:52 > 0:10:56I hope in Wales that we are on the right track
0:10:56 > 0:11:00and going in the right direction.
0:11:00 > 0:11:03Seeing as we're in Aberystwyth, are you going to repair the promenade?
0:11:03 > 0:11:06I hope so.
0:11:06 > 0:11:11I agree with Elin, one of the things we need to do is look to the future
0:11:11 > 0:11:17and make sure that the promenade, when it is rebuilt,
0:11:17 > 0:11:21is stronger than it was two months ago.
0:11:21 > 0:11:23Elin, quickly.
0:11:23 > 0:11:26There was a promenade in Aberystwyth,
0:11:26 > 0:11:29not defences against the storm that hit.
0:11:29 > 0:11:32So having the defences could ruin the promenade?
0:11:32 > 0:11:35We need to look at how to protect the promenade
0:11:35 > 0:11:37and the town of Aberystwyth.
0:11:37 > 0:11:40There is no question that it must be protected.
0:11:40 > 0:11:43Aberystwyth can't fall into the sea.
0:11:43 > 0:11:47If it's economically viable to do so, then it will be protected.
0:11:47 > 0:11:49Some places like y Friog
0:11:49 > 0:11:54are not going to be economically viable to protect.
0:11:54 > 0:11:58We haven't made decisions like that.
0:11:58 > 0:12:00Hang on, I need to hear from the audience.
0:12:00 > 0:12:03We need to have a national discussion
0:12:03 > 0:12:06before we make decisions like that.
0:12:06 > 0:12:09Let's hear from the people of Aberystwyth.
0:12:09 > 0:12:15I'm pleased that Alun has said everywhere will be protected.
0:12:15 > 0:12:19I think the important point is about the different attitudes
0:12:19 > 0:12:24and there isn't a single right answer.
0:12:24 > 0:12:28In terms of dredging rivers,
0:12:28 > 0:12:32I think it is an important thing to do in some places.
0:12:32 > 0:12:35The same response isn't going to work everywhere.
0:12:35 > 0:12:38Looking after the highlands and to try and keep the sea back
0:12:38 > 0:12:41will only work in the short term.
0:12:41 > 0:12:45With the weather we've had recently it won't have an effect
0:12:45 > 0:12:49because all the highlands are saturated.
0:12:49 > 0:12:55That means we need to look at dredging in lower areas.
0:12:58 > 0:13:00The point is we forget quite quickly
0:13:00 > 0:13:03that flooding has happened here before.
0:13:03 > 0:13:06- Has it been as bad as this?- Yes.
0:13:06 > 0:13:10We've had more rain than we've had in the last 200 years.
0:13:10 > 0:13:14The point is, it happened 200 years ago so it has happened before.
0:13:16 > 0:13:18What about Vince?
0:13:18 > 0:13:20You are a business owner in the town.
0:13:21 > 0:13:25- Have you been affected by the floods? - Yes.
0:13:25 > 0:13:28They have had a great effect on Aberystwyth.
0:13:28 > 0:13:30They've stopped people coming into Aberystwyth.
0:13:30 > 0:13:33People aren't travelling as they should.
0:13:33 > 0:13:35They should really dredge the rivers more.
0:13:35 > 0:13:38I remember years ago I was with my grandfather.
0:13:38 > 0:13:41They would dredge the river on his farm every three years
0:13:41 > 0:13:43and they haven't done it for years.
0:13:43 > 0:13:45The river levels are rising.
0:13:45 > 0:13:49Some people have had their homes flooded in Talybont.
0:13:49 > 0:13:53I was really lucky to avoid the floodwater
0:13:53 > 0:13:56but a lot of home around me have been flooded.
0:13:56 > 0:13:58What about you?
0:13:58 > 0:14:02Alun walked Aberystwyth prom with me.
0:14:02 > 0:14:05Fair play to him, he saw the devastation for himself.
0:14:05 > 0:14:08As a county council, I think I speak for other councillors,
0:14:08 > 0:14:10I want to thank the Assembly Government,
0:14:10 > 0:14:15they are giving us money to repair the prom.
0:14:15 > 0:14:18It isn't often that the Welsh Government gets praise from people.
0:14:18 > 0:14:22I think we need to praise them for the fact that they are not only
0:14:22 > 0:14:26rebuilding the prom but strengthening it.
0:14:26 > 0:14:31We should put the message out that Aberystwyth is open,
0:14:31 > 0:14:33- come here on holiday.- Keith Morris.
0:14:33 > 0:14:36We've got two questions here.
0:14:36 > 0:14:39One is preventing water from flowing down the mountains
0:14:39 > 0:14:42and hills to lower ground.
0:14:42 > 0:14:45And the other question concerns protecting Aberystwyth
0:14:45 > 0:14:47from these storms that we've had.
0:14:47 > 0:14:49We need to improve the promenade defences,
0:14:49 > 0:14:54but we need to protect the character of the promenade itself.
0:14:54 > 0:14:57It is one of our biggest tourist attractions.
0:14:57 > 0:14:59And money is needed for that.
0:14:59 > 0:15:01Let's get a microphone over here.
0:15:02 > 0:15:05I've suffered flooding in recent years
0:15:05 > 0:15:09and I haven't seen any plans that would protect areas
0:15:09 > 0:15:14that are lower down in the valley.
0:15:14 > 0:15:17You think that's where it stems from?
0:15:17 > 0:15:19I think that's part of the problem.
0:15:19 > 0:15:21There isn't a simple solution to the problem,
0:15:21 > 0:15:23because there are so many factors.
0:15:23 > 0:15:26We understand that the weather is changing.
0:15:26 > 0:15:31When there's a lot of rain, it collects in the hills
0:15:31 > 0:15:33and runs down to the valley.
0:15:33 > 0:15:36In the valley we can really suffer.
0:15:36 > 0:15:40When there is a high tide and the water comes down,
0:15:40 > 0:15:42it has to pool somewhere.
0:15:42 > 0:15:45You in the back row.
0:15:47 > 0:15:50To go back to the original question,
0:15:50 > 0:15:53flooding can be caused by two factors.
0:15:53 > 0:15:58One is high river levels as a result of high rain fall.
0:15:58 > 0:16:01The second thing is
0:16:01 > 0:16:04when sea breaches of the sea wall,
0:16:04 > 0:16:07as we have seen in Ceredigion and Aberystwyth.
0:16:07 > 0:16:11That's caused by higher sea levels.
0:16:11 > 0:16:15As I see it, this issue concerns the second.
0:16:15 > 0:16:20It isn't so much to do with the river levels.
0:16:20 > 0:16:25If an area or town or whatever lies on low land,
0:16:25 > 0:16:28which is at sea level or,
0:16:32 > 0:16:36like some areas in Wales, below sea level,
0:16:36 > 0:16:40we are going to reach the point where it is going to
0:16:40 > 0:16:43be too expensive to defend them.
0:16:43 > 0:16:46Final word, Penri James.
0:16:46 > 0:16:49It all comes down to money.
0:16:49 > 0:16:54When the storm hit Aberystwyth David Jones the Welsh Secretary
0:16:54 > 0:16:57was quick to say there wouldn't be any extra money
0:16:57 > 0:17:00to keep defending against flooding.
0:17:00 > 0:17:03But when this happened on David Cameron's doorstep,
0:17:03 > 0:17:05suddenly it's money no object.
0:17:05 > 0:17:07I think Carwyn Jones was right this morning asking
0:17:07 > 0:17:10what are the consequentials?
0:17:10 > 0:17:12Is there more money coming to Wales?
0:17:12 > 0:17:15On the radio, somebody said it is a case of
0:17:15 > 0:17:17when the effluent reaches the affluent.
0:17:20 > 0:17:24I need to get your response to that, Alun.
0:17:24 > 0:17:26I've written to the Westminster Government
0:17:26 > 0:17:29asking for consequentials but I haven't heard back yet.
0:17:29 > 0:17:32- Do you think you'll get more money? - Not from the Tories.
0:17:32 > 0:17:34The thing is...
0:17:34 > 0:17:38The Treasury said that this isn't new money that's coming in.
0:17:38 > 0:17:43There are no consequentials but I need to have that confirmed to me.
0:17:43 > 0:17:46I've also asked the Westminster Government
0:17:46 > 0:17:49to bid to the EU Solidarity Fund.
0:17:49 > 0:17:51A sentence, Elin Jones.
0:17:51 > 0:17:53David Cameron said there money no object,
0:17:53 > 0:17:57but there is no more money available even for people in England.
0:17:57 > 0:17:59So nothing will come to Wales.
0:17:59 > 0:18:01I think he is misleading,
0:18:01 > 0:18:05because there are people who really are facing devastation right now.
0:18:05 > 0:18:08This money will have to be pulled from somewhere else.
0:18:08 > 0:18:11Glyn Davies, is David Cameron misleading people?
0:18:11 > 0:18:13David Cameron has been in contact with Carwyn Jones.
0:18:13 > 0:18:16They've been in communication.
0:18:16 > 0:18:18And Alun Davies knows nothing about this?
0:18:18 > 0:18:19I don't know.
0:18:19 > 0:18:22I'm answering the question now.
0:18:22 > 0:18:25Dai... David Cameron has said that if Carwyn Jones needs the Army
0:18:25 > 0:18:28- in Wales to help, that's what he'll do.- Did you just call him Dai?
0:18:28 > 0:18:31He said that on the phone to Carwyn Jones
0:18:31 > 0:18:33and they are working together.
0:18:33 > 0:18:35It's important that the people in Aberystwyth
0:18:35 > 0:18:39and in England learn lessons from this.
0:18:39 > 0:18:41We need to make sure this doesn't happen again.
0:18:41 > 0:18:43We don't need the Army here in Aberystwyth,
0:18:43 > 0:18:46because the locals cleared it themselves.
0:18:52 > 0:18:55Congratulating yourselves, fair play to you.
0:18:55 > 0:18:57The second question from Lucy Scott?
0:18:59 > 0:19:01Should tuition fees for students from Wales who choose to study
0:19:01 > 0:19:05in England be paid for by the Welsh Government?
0:19:05 > 0:19:08Thank you. Should tuition fees for Welsh students studying in England
0:19:08 > 0:19:12- be paid for by the Welsh Government? Elin Royles.- No.
0:19:12 > 0:19:15And I'm amazed that Welsh universities
0:19:15 > 0:19:18have stayed so quiet on the matter for so long.
0:19:18 > 0:19:22We are in a situation where 20% more students...
0:19:22 > 0:19:26There has been an increase over the past few years where
0:19:26 > 0:19:3020% more students are going to England for their education
0:19:30 > 0:19:34and Welsh universities are suffering as a result.
0:19:34 > 0:19:37Of course, we are in a difficult situation.
0:19:37 > 0:19:39Our main market are English students.
0:19:39 > 0:19:41There are more English students coming to Wales
0:19:41 > 0:19:43than the other way round.
0:19:43 > 0:19:48But I think this perpetuates the lack of investment
0:19:48 > 0:19:50in Welsh universities.
0:19:50 > 0:19:52It takes money out of the system.
0:19:52 > 0:19:54It affects the Welsh language.
0:19:54 > 0:19:57We are missing out on students that could be studying here in Wales.
0:19:57 > 0:20:01But aren't you differentiating between students
0:20:01 > 0:20:05who want to study in England maybe in a better university.
0:20:05 > 0:20:07But that's the student's decision.
0:20:07 > 0:20:10What about the political priorities?
0:20:10 > 0:20:13So we should give the student who comes to Wales
0:20:13 > 0:20:18but not the student who goes to England?
0:20:18 > 0:20:21I feel as though we should be paying the tuition fees for students
0:20:21 > 0:20:23who stay in Wales,
0:20:23 > 0:20:27because we've got a wider problem in terms of our economic situation.
0:20:27 > 0:20:30We've also got a problem with emigrating.
0:20:30 > 0:20:33And there's a brain drain that's going on.
0:20:33 > 0:20:36It is really difficult to bring these students back to Wales.
0:20:36 > 0:20:40We are seeing a reduction in the number of people studying in Welsh,
0:20:40 > 0:20:43medical students and the number of students going to Cardiff.
0:20:43 > 0:20:45Once they go to places like London or Liverpool
0:20:45 > 0:20:49it's difficult to get them back. It is affecting our communities.
0:20:49 > 0:20:52Where do you stand on this, Elin Jones?
0:20:52 > 0:20:55Has there been a change of mind by Plaid Cymru?
0:20:55 > 0:20:58I don't think students should have to pay for their tuition fees
0:20:58 > 0:21:01- at all. - But we're not in that situation.
0:21:01 > 0:21:04So that's my standpoint.
0:21:04 > 0:21:10Due to circumstances, we've had to introduce different policies
0:21:10 > 0:21:14because of the market that exists between Welsh
0:21:14 > 0:21:18and English universities and what's going on in Westminster.
0:21:18 > 0:21:21At one point, we did have a policy
0:21:21 > 0:21:25of only funding students who studied in Wales.
0:21:27 > 0:21:30I remember that created its own problems.
0:21:30 > 0:21:34Parents in Ceredigion were really cross with me, as their children
0:21:34 > 0:21:39were forced to study courses like veterinary sciences.
0:21:41 > 0:21:43But where do you stand on it now?
0:21:43 > 0:21:48I think we are in a situation where we are seeing fees
0:21:48 > 0:21:50reach £9,000 plus,
0:21:50 > 0:21:53so in future we are going to have to consider change.
0:21:53 > 0:21:56The Government is looking at this matter at the moment.
0:21:56 > 0:21:58We might have a cross-party agreement
0:21:58 > 0:22:02to see how sustainable this policy would be in the long term
0:22:02 > 0:22:05and what needs to be done.
0:22:05 > 0:22:09But you are not going to say that it is wrong that the
0:22:09 > 0:22:11Welsh Government pays for students to study in England?
0:22:11 > 0:22:14It is not wrong, because they benefit
0:22:14 > 0:22:17and haven't had to face massive fees
0:22:17 > 0:22:23as a result of having to take out loans of £9,000 a year.
0:22:23 > 0:22:27So students from Wales and students raised in Wales
0:22:27 > 0:22:29have benefitted from this policy.
0:22:31 > 0:22:35- What's wrong about that?- Of course, people have benefitted from this.
0:22:35 > 0:22:38- But not Welsh universities. - No, not Welsh universities.
0:22:41 > 0:22:45I accept that there are weaknesses in this policy.
0:22:45 > 0:22:48One of those weaknesses is the fact that English universities
0:22:48 > 0:22:51have been marketing themselves really hard in Wales
0:22:51 > 0:22:54in order to attract students from Wales.
0:22:54 > 0:22:56I'll come back to the two Davies' in a moment.
0:22:56 > 0:22:59We've got hands up everywhere in the audience.
0:22:59 > 0:23:01Let's start with you.
0:23:01 > 0:23:05I think the problem here is this £9,000 tuition fee
0:23:05 > 0:23:08that is being raised in Westminster.
0:23:08 > 0:23:11It will make it very difficult for students
0:23:11 > 0:23:13especially those from poorer backgrounds.
0:23:13 > 0:23:16But we can't go backwards.
0:23:16 > 0:23:20We've got a different policy in Wales and I think it is fair
0:23:20 > 0:23:23and will allow Welsh students can get the best
0:23:23 > 0:23:27education possible, whether it be in Wales or elsewhere in Britain.
0:23:27 > 0:23:29- So you support it as a Labour councillor?- Yes.
0:23:32 > 0:23:35I think perhaps we are looking at this in an economically skewed
0:23:35 > 0:23:39perspective. It's too much about profit and loss.
0:23:39 > 0:23:43We are looking at the future of these students.
0:23:43 > 0:23:48If I move about 100km over the border,
0:23:48 > 0:23:52then my future isn't as important to the Welsh Government.
0:23:52 > 0:23:55So you think the policy as it stands is right?
0:23:55 > 0:23:58- Yes, of course.- What about you?
0:23:58 > 0:24:00I disagree with this policy.
0:24:00 > 0:24:04On the basis that people are going to England if we stay in Wales,
0:24:04 > 0:24:07we support the local economy.
0:24:07 > 0:24:10We support the cafe, the pubs, we support everything.
0:24:10 > 0:24:14Whereas somebody who moves to Newcastle
0:24:14 > 0:24:17isn't supporting the Welsh economy in the same way as we do
0:24:17 > 0:24:19staying in Wales.
0:24:19 > 0:24:21But don't you think that students studying in Newcastle
0:24:21 > 0:24:24should have the same opportunity as you in Aberystwyth?
0:24:24 > 0:24:26Everyone deserves...
0:24:26 > 0:24:28Or do you think they should be punished as a result of their move?
0:24:28 > 0:24:32It depends on whether the course is available here in Wales.
0:24:32 > 0:24:35I think it is fair enough to go to England for a course
0:24:35 > 0:24:37that isn't available in Wales.
0:24:37 > 0:24:41If they want to study something like veterinary science, fair enough.
0:24:43 > 0:24:48I was in university in the '90s and at that time there were grants.
0:24:48 > 0:24:50A long time ago.
0:24:50 > 0:24:54Most of my friends, as well as myself,
0:24:54 > 0:24:57went to university in England.
0:24:57 > 0:25:00I'm the only one that's returned to Wales.
0:25:00 > 0:25:04I'm sure that speaks volumes about the effect this has.
0:25:04 > 0:25:06They've great jobs most of them
0:25:06 > 0:25:10but they've all stayed in London or Liverpool or other places like that.
0:25:10 > 0:25:13So you think it's a mistake? Back two rows.
0:25:15 > 0:25:19The National Students Union of Wales is looking at this
0:25:19 > 0:25:23and they'll respond to the government too.
0:25:23 > 0:25:27But we also need to look at non-traditional students,
0:25:27 > 0:25:31mature students and those from further education colleges
0:25:31 > 0:25:33to see how this is affecting them.
0:25:33 > 0:25:35But there is another question.
0:25:35 > 0:25:38Why are they crossing over in the first place?
0:25:38 > 0:25:42Are schools doing enough to keep them in Wales?
0:25:42 > 0:25:46We are seeing councils in places like Merthyr closing services.
0:25:46 > 0:25:48But there could be departments in England
0:25:48 > 0:25:51that are better than departments here.
0:25:51 > 0:25:54That's fair, you want to attend the best place.
0:25:54 > 0:25:58We've heard recently that fewer students are applying to Oxford
0:25:58 > 0:26:00and Cambridge.
0:26:00 > 0:26:03They decide to go to other colleges because they're better.
0:26:03 > 0:26:06I think we've got enough in Wales.
0:26:06 > 0:26:07Let's move on.
0:26:09 > 0:26:15I just want to agree with the last speaker that we shouldn't pay.
0:26:16 > 0:26:19The NHS have a scheme for dentist.
0:26:19 > 0:26:25If they agree to work in North Wales for four years after they graduate,
0:26:25 > 0:26:28they get money which helps them in their studies.
0:26:28 > 0:26:32I think we should be looking more at specific subjects
0:26:32 > 0:26:37- and they should be reimbursed. - Thank you.
0:26:39 > 0:26:42I don't agree with that policy.
0:26:42 > 0:26:45The worst thing is that it shows the lack of ambition
0:26:45 > 0:26:47that we have in Wales.
0:26:47 > 0:26:51People say that we should be paying for our students to go to England.
0:26:51 > 0:26:54Why don't we have better departments in Wales?
0:26:54 > 0:26:56How about you two?
0:26:56 > 0:27:01The Welsh Government needs to be more careful how they spend money
0:27:01 > 0:27:03on higher education.
0:27:03 > 0:27:08Either they decide to invest more money to attract the best
0:27:08 > 0:27:12lecturers here in Wales and to keep Welsh students in Wales or not.
0:27:14 > 0:27:18Behind you. You look like a lecturer but I'm probably wrong.
0:27:18 > 0:27:19I look like a headmaster!
0:27:21 > 0:27:22It's authority!
0:27:24 > 0:27:26Elin mentioned the brain drain.
0:27:26 > 0:27:29We have a brain drain from rural Wales.
0:27:29 > 0:27:35We produce fantastic young people who are leaving rural Wales.
0:27:35 > 0:27:38Shouldn't we be making sure we have jobs to keep them
0:27:38 > 0:27:43in Wales rather than sending them into England to look for work?
0:27:45 > 0:27:50The problem is, if we pay for students to go to England,
0:27:50 > 0:27:54is our education here in Wales going to suffer
0:27:54 > 0:27:57if the money that should be given to Welsh universities
0:27:57 > 0:28:01- is going to other universities. - Good question.
0:28:01 > 0:28:04Let's move over to the panel. Glyn Davies?
0:28:04 > 0:28:08I remember when the policy came in in 2010.
0:28:08 > 0:28:11It was very unpopular.
0:28:11 > 0:28:14Students were very worried.
0:28:14 > 0:28:19I was worried at the time that Wales was going in a different direction.
0:28:19 > 0:28:23What I want to see is students going to university
0:28:23 > 0:28:25that suits them best.
0:28:27 > 0:28:30That's what I'm most worried about.
0:28:30 > 0:28:33Also, a new policy.
0:28:33 > 0:28:36I'm also worried about the future of universities in Wales.
0:28:36 > 0:28:40I think they are under threat.
0:28:40 > 0:28:43If they don't receive enough money,
0:28:43 > 0:28:48then I think they'll go down the table worldwide.
0:28:48 > 0:28:52And in the end the Government in the Assembly
0:28:52 > 0:28:55will change the policy.
0:28:55 > 0:28:57Possibly after the next election.
0:28:57 > 0:29:00A review is taking place at the moment.
0:29:00 > 0:29:02Where do you stand in this, Alun Davies?
0:29:02 > 0:29:05A review is taking place at the moment into the policy's impact.
0:29:05 > 0:29:08I don't agree with fees in principle
0:29:08 > 0:29:11but we have to deal with the reality as it stands.
0:29:11 > 0:29:15I don't want to be in a position where we force students
0:29:15 > 0:29:19to stay in Wales against their will.
0:29:19 > 0:29:22I don't think Elin is in favour of that.
0:29:22 > 0:29:24If they want to go, they can go.
0:29:24 > 0:29:27Yes, but without any money.
0:29:27 > 0:29:31If you're rich, you have the choice,
0:29:31 > 0:29:33but if not, you have no choice.
0:29:33 > 0:29:36I think everybody should have the same choice.
0:29:36 > 0:29:39I stayed in Wales for my higher education
0:29:39 > 0:29:42and I'm hoping that my children will do the same.
0:29:42 > 0:29:45I want them to have the choice and that's the most important thing?
0:29:45 > 0:29:47What about what this lady said?
0:29:47 > 0:29:51- All her friends went to England and stayed there.- That was their choice.
0:29:51 > 0:29:54We shouldn't build walls around Wales.
0:29:54 > 0:29:58Higher education is more and more international.
0:29:58 > 0:30:01We need to compete in the modern world.
0:30:01 > 0:30:04If we don't do, then we turn our backs on the world.
0:30:04 > 0:30:07But you are in favour of the present situation?
0:30:07 > 0:30:14- Of course I am.- So in spite of this review, you add in favour?
0:30:14 > 0:30:15I voted for it.
0:30:15 > 0:30:20Obviously I support it, but we must make sure that the policy
0:30:20 > 0:30:23develops with time and let me say that there are more
0:30:23 > 0:30:26students from England coming to Wales than the other way round,
0:30:26 > 0:30:29so more money is coming in from the Westminster Government to
0:30:29 > 0:30:32Wales then we pay to English universities.
0:30:32 > 0:30:35But the Welsh universities are complaining.
0:30:35 > 0:30:38There is a discrepancy in funding at the moment between English
0:30:38 > 0:30:40universities and Welsh universities
0:30:40 > 0:30:43and that is because of intended developments that are stopping
0:30:43 > 0:30:45a cap on numbers attending English universities
0:30:45 > 0:30:48and also stopping the capping on fees in England.
0:30:48 > 0:30:50That is going to increase this gap.
0:30:50 > 0:30:53We need quality universities in Wales
0:30:53 > 0:30:58but we must have the investment to realise that.
0:30:58 > 0:31:01At the moment we need to strengthen that investment.
0:31:01 > 0:31:06That is all for the moment. Join us after the break.
0:31:23 > 0:31:27Welcome back. You are watching Pawb A'i Farn from Aberystwyth.
0:31:27 > 0:31:32Our next question is from Trevor Pugh. What is your question, please?
0:31:32 > 0:31:37Alun Davies has said that he wants to see farmers making
0:31:37 > 0:31:40a profit without any subsidies.
0:31:40 > 0:31:45- What effect would that have on rural to Wales?- Let's ask the minister.
0:31:45 > 0:31:49Alun Davies wants to see farmers making a profit without any
0:31:49 > 0:31:53subsidies. What effect would that have on rural Wales?
0:31:53 > 0:31:55Did you say that?
0:31:55 > 0:32:02No, I didn't. I said the subsidies are going down at the moment.
0:32:02 > 0:32:06They will continue to be reduced over time.
0:32:06 > 0:32:09Reduced to nothing?
0:32:09 > 0:32:14I don't think Pillar 1 will completely disappear.
0:32:15 > 0:32:18But the value of Pillar 1 will reduce with time.
0:32:18 > 0:32:23We are seeing that at the moment and it happens all over Europe.
0:32:23 > 0:32:28Irish farmers were protesting last week when I was in Dublin -
0:32:28 > 0:32:30not against me personally!
0:32:30 > 0:32:33Is it happening faster in Wales because of your attitude?
0:32:33 > 0:32:39No, what is happening is that the agricultural industry
0:32:39 > 0:32:42must have a future where we can invest in the future.
0:32:42 > 0:32:46I am going to announce next Monday our biggest ever Rural Development Plan.
0:32:46 > 0:32:49We are going to ensure that we invest
0:32:49 > 0:32:54something like £100 million a year in the future of rural Wales
0:32:54 > 0:32:59and the economy of rural Wales and the agricultural economy in general.
0:32:59 > 0:33:02What will the money be spent on?
0:33:02 > 0:33:03If we don't do that,
0:33:03 > 0:33:06if we ignore what is going on with Pillar 1,
0:33:06 > 0:33:11and reduce subsidies, we are going to walk into the future
0:33:11 > 0:33:17without any hope of protecting the future of agriculture.
0:33:17 > 0:33:19As a minister, I am not going to do that.
0:33:19 > 0:33:23I'm going to make sure that we do invest in these businesses.
0:33:23 > 0:33:27We have been paying out subsidies for 70 years
0:33:27 > 0:33:34and we have no industry resilient enough to stand on its own two feet.
0:33:34 > 0:33:39We have to ensure that farmers and the agricultural economy
0:33:39 > 0:33:42can withstand what is going to happen in the future.
0:33:42 > 0:33:45If we don't do that, we are keeping our heads in the sand
0:33:45 > 0:33:48and the industry is going to be destroyed.
0:33:48 > 0:33:51What does the former minister think?
0:33:51 > 0:33:55There is a reason why subsidies exist in the agricultural
0:33:55 > 0:33:57sector, not just because farmers deserve it.
0:33:57 > 0:34:04It exists because the food market does not work as a free market.
0:34:04 > 0:34:08Increasingly so, as the big supermarkets are the only
0:34:08 > 0:34:09buyers of produce.
0:34:09 > 0:34:16And we have a great number of people trying to sell into that market.
0:34:16 > 0:34:20That is why subsidies exist.
0:34:20 > 0:34:25They exist all over Europe and they have to exist here in Wales
0:34:25 > 0:34:29so that our farmers can continue to produce food
0:34:29 > 0:34:33and to compete with farmers in Europe.
0:34:33 > 0:34:35What has angered our farmers in Wales
0:34:35 > 0:34:38and with which I do not agree, is to modulate at the greatest possible
0:34:38 > 0:34:46level and cut the 15% of payments made directly to farmers.
0:34:46 > 0:34:48- I would not have done that.- But you agree with his long-term aims?
0:34:48 > 0:34:53I don't agree that the free market works for agriculture
0:34:53 > 0:34:56and I can't see that changing in the mid-term,
0:34:56 > 0:35:01with this move towards big supermarkets.
0:35:01 > 0:35:04I do think that there is value
0:35:04 > 0:35:09and an opportunity for farmers in Wales where we have good
0:35:09 > 0:35:13agricultural land and plenty of water to profit from that in future.
0:35:13 > 0:35:16I'm sorry, Elin. Trevor Pugh?
0:35:16 > 0:35:18It's important that the money comes directly to farmers
0:35:18 > 0:35:22because farmers are investing locally and spending locally.
0:35:22 > 0:35:25If you take it out of Pillar 1 and into Pillar 2, there is
0:35:25 > 0:35:29no certainty that the money will come back into rural Wales.
0:35:29 > 0:35:34Alun Davies has not made an announcement yet.
0:35:34 > 0:35:3980% of this billion pounds is going straight to farmers.
0:35:39 > 0:35:40It is going straight to farmers
0:35:40 > 0:35:45and this is the biggest investment in the agricultural industry ever.
0:35:45 > 0:35:48Farmers?
0:35:48 > 0:35:51You say 80% of this Pillar 2 money is going to come back.
0:35:51 > 0:35:56When consultants visit farmers, costing £500 a day,
0:35:56 > 0:36:00to tell us what to do, and most of them have no idea what to do,
0:36:00 > 0:36:04you have taken away 15% of our money.
0:36:04 > 0:36:07That is 15% loss straightaway.
0:36:07 > 0:36:13England is only on 12%, so they are 3% better off straightaway.
0:36:13 > 0:36:18- Welshpool market with Glyn. - Wait a second. Finish quickly.
0:36:18 > 0:36:20Welshpool market.
0:36:20 > 0:36:24When a Welsh farmer goes there to sell his stock,
0:36:24 > 0:36:28an English farmer gets 3% more straightaway for his stock.
0:36:28 > 0:36:30We cannot compete.
0:36:30 > 0:36:34I remember you saying to us back in November, Mr Davies,
0:36:34 > 0:36:37that you didn't want to be the politician to do to rural
0:36:37 > 0:36:42Wales what politicians did to the coal mines in the 1980s.
0:36:42 > 0:36:44Well, you are going the right way about it.
0:36:44 > 0:36:49Why has France only marginally at 3%, Germans 4%,
0:36:49 > 0:36:51the Irish nothing at all,
0:36:51 > 0:36:56and you have taken as much money as possible out of rural Wales.
0:36:56 > 0:37:02- You are what Judas was to the Christians.- Absolute nonsense.
0:37:05 > 0:37:09Irish beef...
0:37:09 > 0:37:12Ireland has not modulated at all.
0:37:12 > 0:37:17Beef comes into Ireland at £3.30 a kilo.
0:37:17 > 0:37:19We have £3.60 8K.
0:37:19 > 0:37:23We have no hope of competing against Ireland
0:37:23 > 0:37:28and in the next few years, it is going to be very difficult for us.
0:37:28 > 0:37:33The back row.
0:37:31 > 0:37:33I'm talking from experience.
0:37:35 > 0:37:38You talk about reducing subsidies to farmers.
0:37:38 > 0:37:41I am an agricultural engineer and I sell machines
0:37:41 > 0:37:43and tractors to farmers.
0:37:43 > 0:37:47We are based in West Wales and we've had farmers pulling
0:37:47 > 0:37:52out of contracts and cancelling four tractors because of these cuts.
0:37:52 > 0:37:55That has a knock-on effect for everybody.
0:37:55 > 0:37:59It's a risk to my job as an engineer.
0:37:59 > 0:38:05We have a cleaning woman in work and we've had to let her go
0:38:05 > 0:38:08because we don't have enough money in the pot.
0:38:08 > 0:38:11She goes home and she can't pay the milkman because she has no work.
0:38:11 > 0:38:14The milkman can't pay his bills and goes out of business
0:38:14 > 0:38:15and so on and so on.
0:38:15 > 0:38:18Over to you.
0:38:18 > 0:38:25We have to remind you who owns most of Wales, the farmer.
0:38:25 > 0:38:29We must also remind you as well who keeps the Welsh language
0:38:29 > 0:38:33alive in rural Wales. I was talking to a farmer who told me that perhaps
0:38:33 > 0:38:38he was going to lose 80% of his subsidies in highland Wales.
0:38:38 > 0:38:41His problem is that he can't keep his children home
0:38:41 > 0:38:44and what will happen to the industry?
0:38:44 > 0:38:50- Thank you very much. Back one row. - I just wanted to agree with Wyn.
0:38:50 > 0:38:53We are very net importer of meat into Britain.
0:38:53 > 0:38:55I'm talking specifically about beef.
0:38:55 > 0:39:00We are competing with countries who have not gone for the 15% margin.
0:39:00 > 0:39:06We know when beef comes from Ireland or Poland very recently,
0:39:06 > 0:39:11it suppresses the market price in this country. That's what happens.
0:39:11 > 0:39:15We're not on a level playing field in Europe.
0:39:15 > 0:39:18It's not a level European system.
0:39:19 > 0:39:21Back to you.
0:39:22 > 0:39:25Alun Davies has told us
0:39:25 > 0:39:30as farmers that 13% of money is coming from Europe.
0:39:30 > 0:39:32As Welsh highland farmers, we are
0:39:32 > 0:39:36going to suffer losses between 60% and 80%,
0:39:36 > 0:39:42because he decided to penalise highland areas over 400 metres
0:39:42 > 0:39:44and on top of that,
0:39:44 > 0:39:49while consultations were being held in October, the 400 metre line
0:39:49 > 0:39:55was not mentioned, nor was the 20 per hectare either.
0:39:55 > 0:39:58So what good is a national consultation at great cost
0:39:58 > 0:40:02- when nobody listens to anything. - And nothing works?
0:40:02 > 0:40:06Alun can answer in a minute. Glyn Davies, as a former farmer yourself?
0:40:06 > 0:40:10We've had the same discussion in England as well.
0:40:10 > 0:40:14Over the last year, I have been trying to persuade ministers not
0:40:14 > 0:40:20to move 15% from the single payments to environmental payments.
0:40:20 > 0:40:24He was very glad that he had done so.
0:40:24 > 0:40:26Only 12% have moved in England
0:40:26 > 0:40:31and they also said that in three years' time, it is
0:40:31 > 0:40:34possible that it will go up to 50% but they want to see
0:40:34 > 0:40:41what happens in agriculture and also worthwhile proposals.
0:40:41 > 0:40:44I'm disappointed in what Alun Davies has said?
0:40:44 > 0:40:48If something worthwhile happens with the Government in London...
0:40:48 > 0:40:52I was very pleased to hear that because to be honest,
0:40:52 > 0:40:58I was expecting. The problem is, we know what is happening.
0:40:58 > 0:41:01The way money is going.
0:41:01 > 0:41:04It moves from going straight, to going to some
0:41:04 > 0:41:08sort of circumstances, helping the environment.
0:41:08 > 0:41:12But it is important to move slowly enough,
0:41:12 > 0:41:17- to not give the farmers in Britain some kind of...- Elin Royles.
0:41:17 > 0:41:20I must say that I am not a farmer
0:41:20 > 0:41:23but I know how important rural Wales is and farmers,
0:41:23 > 0:41:30and what ordinary people like us can do is buy more from farmers, buy as
0:41:30 > 0:41:37locally as we can and buy more from them to try and promote the economy.
0:41:37 > 0:41:39Alun Davies, a chance to answer all those points
0:41:39 > 0:41:42but perhaps above all, the point about farmers not being able
0:41:42 > 0:41:47to be competitive enough because of the money you have set aside.
0:41:47 > 0:41:50The fact is that Irish meat imports have
0:41:50 > 0:41:55fallen 44% during the last few months, so that is not true.
0:41:55 > 0:41:59But when you look at the present system, some farmers
0:41:59 > 0:42:05receive 100 euros a hectare and others receive 300-400 euros a hectare.
0:42:05 > 0:42:09People know this. Is that fair? Of course it isn't fair.
0:42:09 > 0:42:13We are introducing a system that nobody has complained about.
0:42:13 > 0:42:15They agree with it.
0:42:15 > 0:42:19People are talking about 15% which is moved from one
0:42:19 > 0:42:20Pillar to another Pillar.
0:42:20 > 0:42:26This enables us to invest in the industry for the future.
0:42:26 > 0:42:30Pillar 1 is going to drop in value this year, next year
0:42:30 > 0:42:32and the following year.
0:42:32 > 0:42:37We're going to lose about 20% of the value of Pillar 1 by 2020.
0:42:37 > 0:42:41Are we going to do nothing, sit back,
0:42:41 > 0:42:43fight for 15% of money which is reducing,
0:42:43 > 0:42:47or are we going to use this money to invest in the future
0:42:47 > 0:42:50and invest in new agricultural businesses for the future.
0:42:50 > 0:42:54That is the choice we have. I'm going to invest.
0:42:54 > 0:42:59If you don't want money, you don't have to take it.
0:42:59 > 0:43:02That's it. No chance for you to respond, I'm afraid.
0:43:02 > 0:43:05We should dedicate a whole programme to agriculture
0:43:05 > 0:43:07but for the moment time for some adverts.
0:43:07 > 0:43:09Join us again after the break.
0:43:25 > 0:43:32Welcome back to Aberystwyth. One more question, from Dafydd Thomas.
0:43:32 > 0:43:36Bronglais hospital is very important to us in Ceredigion.
0:43:36 > 0:43:39Does the centralising of health services in specialist
0:43:39 > 0:43:43- hospitals improve the care for patients in this area?- Thank you.
0:43:43 > 0:43:46Brandeis hospital is important to us in Ceredigion.
0:43:46 > 0:43:49Does the centralising of health services in specialist
0:43:49 > 0:43:53hospitals improve the care for patients in this area? Elin Jones.
0:43:53 > 0:43:58The first thing to say is that people in Ceredigion are used
0:43:58 > 0:44:03to going to specialist hospitals for specialist care, cancer,
0:44:03 > 0:44:08cardiac and so on to Morrison and Cardiff and we are used to doing so.
0:44:08 > 0:44:13The argument about the future of Bronglais is whether it will be
0:44:13 > 0:44:17there to save people's lives, to perform emergency operations
0:44:17 > 0:44:20and Caesarean operations for pregnant mothers
0:44:20 > 0:44:26and to save people's lives when they need such operations.
0:44:26 > 0:44:30- So that's the question. - On what are your fears based?
0:44:30 > 0:44:35Health Minister Mark Drakeford said two weeks ago,
0:44:35 > 0:44:39very unexpectedly, that his choice would be to centralise
0:44:39 > 0:44:43maternity care, and be led by consultants in Glangwili.
0:44:43 > 0:44:49That is of great concern to the population, not just of
0:44:49 > 0:44:54Ceredigion, but also of Montgomery and Gwynedd, who rely on Bronglais.
0:44:54 > 0:44:57The argument for Bronglais is unique in Wales
0:44:57 > 0:45:01because this is the only hospital between the A55 and the A4
0:45:01 > 0:45:06and it is important to save lives in those earlier.
0:45:06 > 0:45:08But they have invested £30 million in the hospital
0:45:08 > 0:45:12so that there is no suggestion that things are going to get much worse.
0:45:12 > 0:45:15The hospital is not going to close
0:45:15 > 0:45:18but it needs to have those core services which save lives
0:45:18 > 0:45:22and allow the hospital to offer a full service.
0:45:22 > 0:45:26It is not possible to transport people in helicopters in this
0:45:26 > 0:45:31kind of weather, nor in an emergency to Glangwili in time to save lives.
0:45:31 > 0:45:35This matter of safeguarding emergency services is crucial.
0:45:35 > 0:45:38I am one of those people who has had emergency surgery in a hospital.
0:45:38 > 0:45:43Those theatres need to be upgraded.
0:45:43 > 0:45:47At Bronglais can't attract the quality to the hospital.
0:45:47 > 0:45:50The problem is, they haven't really tried very hard.
0:45:50 > 0:45:53Whenever a gap comes up, they centralise
0:45:53 > 0:45:59services in Carmarthen to the whole process has been bad.
0:45:59 > 0:46:01Also, mental health care.
0:46:01 > 0:46:04That ward has closed and we don't talk enough about those kinds of things.
0:46:04 > 0:46:08Consider a family with a patient who has mental health issues
0:46:08 > 0:46:11and they have to travel to Carmarthen.
0:46:11 > 0:46:13How does it affect the family?
0:46:13 > 0:46:18What about people when they have the extra cost of travelling?
0:46:18 > 0:46:23Let's turn to the audience. Gareth Davies?
0:46:23 > 0:46:30I work in Bronglais hospital and it is a constant battle
0:46:30 > 0:46:35for mid Wales to ensure services in Bronglais hospital.
0:46:35 > 0:46:38The Hywel Dda University Health Board always tries to
0:46:38 > 0:46:41centralise things in Carmarthen.
0:46:41 > 0:46:47They forget that Bronglais serves a large area of mid Wales.
0:46:47 > 0:46:53The Labour Party in Cardiff want to centralise everything.
0:46:53 > 0:46:59We regularly hear that Ceredigion is to disappear quite soon
0:46:59 > 0:47:01and join Pembrokeshire
0:47:01 > 0:47:05so the services are getting further away from mid Wales all the time.
0:47:05 > 0:47:07Ceredig Davies?
0:47:07 > 0:47:12People in this area are very frustrated with what the
0:47:12 > 0:47:13health board are doing in Bronglais.
0:47:13 > 0:47:16As a council in December, we took a vote of no confidence
0:47:16 > 0:47:21in the health board and we wrote to Mark Drakeford and
0:47:21 > 0:47:26he came back to us and said that we should be dealing with this locally.
0:47:26 > 0:47:27We wouldn't have written to him
0:47:27 > 0:47:30if it was something that we could deal with locally.
0:47:30 > 0:47:33Then they said they won't meet us as a council
0:47:33 > 0:47:38unless we meet councillors behind closed doors.
0:47:38 > 0:47:39That is not good enough.
0:47:39 > 0:47:42They should have the confidence to come and tell us
0:47:42 > 0:47:44exactly what future of Bronglais is.
0:47:44 > 0:47:52- The back row.- The Chief Executive of Hywel Dda earns £170,000 a year.
0:47:54 > 0:47:59He didn't turn up to meet the public in Ceredigion.
0:47:59 > 0:48:05As well as that, we understand that he is not answerable to the
0:48:05 > 0:48:06Welsh Government.
0:48:06 > 0:48:10They make these decisions about centralisation of services.
0:48:10 > 0:48:14We have superb nurses and doctors in Aberystwyth
0:48:14 > 0:48:21and we have a very good services. Why can't we upgrade the hospital?
0:48:21 > 0:48:24Glyn Davies, concisely, please.
0:48:24 > 0:48:28Bronglais is important to Montgomeryshire as well
0:48:28 > 0:48:30and South Gwynedd.
0:48:30 > 0:48:35There are people there from Llanidloes and Machynlleth.
0:48:35 > 0:48:37It's very important for them.
0:48:37 > 0:48:41What I want to see is every service possible in Bronglais.
0:48:41 > 0:48:46I know we can't have everything. It costs too much but we need more...
0:48:46 > 0:48:49Everything possible in Aberystwyth, in Bronglais.
0:48:49 > 0:48:54- Because it is too far to go to other hospitals.- Thank you, Glyn.
0:48:54 > 0:48:56I'll have to give Alun 30 seconds.
0:48:56 > 0:49:00We are talking about this all over Wales as we're modernising
0:49:00 > 0:49:04the health service. We discussed this in my area this afternoon.
0:49:04 > 0:49:09We have to have the best possible services all over
0:49:09 > 0:49:10Wales and that's crucial.
0:49:10 > 0:49:13That's why we're investing in Bronglais right now
0:49:13 > 0:49:17and we're going to ensure that we have the best possible
0:49:17 > 0:49:20specialist services for people all over Wales.
0:49:20 > 0:49:22Alun Davies, thank you very much.
0:49:22 > 0:49:26And the audience here in Aberystwyth, thank you for your company.
0:49:26 > 0:49:31Next week my place will be taken by Jonathan. See you in two weeks.