0:00:26 > 0:00:29On our panel this evening, former Wales outside half,
0:00:29 > 0:00:36Gareth Davies, Felix Aubel of the Conservative Party, former Plaid
0:00:36 > 0:00:40Cymru Adam Price and former Welsh language Commissioner, Mary Hughes.
0:00:55 > 0:01:01Welcome to the programme. We are in Powys this evening.
0:01:01 > 0:01:09We are visiting Brecon. It's great to be here.
0:01:09 > 0:01:16It's a historic town. We are at the local leisure centre.
0:01:16 > 0:01:22Thank you for joining us.
0:01:22 > 0:01:26Next week, we'll be in Pwllheli for the final show of the series
0:01:26 > 0:01:28and you are welcome to get in touch.
0:01:28 > 0:01:32The address is on the screen. Our first question.
0:01:32 > 0:01:39From the back row, please.
0:01:39 > 0:01:43Following on from the results of the last census,
0:01:43 > 0:01:46is there too much emphasis placed on safeguarding
0:01:46 > 0:01:50the rights of Welsh speakers, rather than promoting its use?
0:01:50 > 0:01:54Thank you very much. Following on from the results of the last census,
0:01:54 > 0:01:57is there too much emphasis placed on safeguarding
0:01:57 > 0:02:01the rights of the Welsh speakers, rather than promoting its use?
0:02:01 > 0:02:04Let me start with you, Felix.
0:02:04 > 0:02:10We have spent millions trying to safeguard the language
0:02:10 > 0:02:15through a Welsh language Act
0:02:15 > 0:02:21and the census figures show that the numbers are falling.
0:02:21 > 0:02:23Something is wrong.
0:02:23 > 0:02:28For a language to succeed, it must be alive.
0:02:28 > 0:02:32It must be used in homes
0:02:32 > 0:02:36and in everyday life.
0:02:36 > 0:02:41There has been an experiment in the Republic of Ireland
0:02:41 > 0:02:45and that's proved that the more you try to safeguard the language
0:02:45 > 0:02:46with legislation,
0:02:46 > 0:02:51people see it as irrelevant.
0:02:51 > 0:02:54They see it as part of the academic world
0:02:54 > 0:02:59and the middle class world.
0:02:59 > 0:03:04I remember it being said years ago that you can't safeguard
0:03:04 > 0:03:11a language through legislation,
0:03:11 > 0:03:13you have to promote a language.
0:03:13 > 0:03:16I think it would be better if the money that is being
0:03:16 > 0:03:22spent on legislating and on ensuring that legislation is implemented,
0:03:22 > 0:03:27is spent on classes to teach people to use the language
0:03:27 > 0:03:30in our chapels, our pubs,
0:03:30 > 0:03:37our schools, rather than gathering dust.
0:03:37 > 0:03:38What about the rights?
0:03:38 > 0:03:41Are you ignoring our rights as Welsh speakers
0:03:41 > 0:03:45to receive different services?
0:03:45 > 0:03:50Unfortunately, Welsh speak speakers don't use these rights.
0:03:50 > 0:03:53Look at the NHS Direct, for example.
0:03:53 > 0:03:58The figures were published a fortnight ago
0:03:58 > 0:04:03saying that bilingual languages were provided.
0:04:03 > 0:04:05Around 1% of those people phoning NHS Direct
0:04:05 > 0:04:10were using the Welsh service.
0:04:10 > 0:04:13I know from my experience in Carmarthen,
0:04:13 > 0:04:18all these pamphlets,
0:04:18 > 0:04:21paying different bills and so on,
0:04:21 > 0:04:28over 90% of Welsh speakers fill the forms in English.
0:04:28 > 0:04:34I'm not saying that's a good thing but that's the reality.
0:04:34 > 0:04:37Let me speak to the Welsh Language Commissioner, Meri Hughes.
0:04:37 > 0:04:40What about it?
0:04:40 > 0:04:46You wouldn't be surprised that I disagree with Felix.
0:04:46 > 0:04:49It would be a strange thing if we said that we didn't need
0:04:49 > 0:04:53rights for children, rights for older people
0:04:53 > 0:04:57and in the same way,
0:04:57 > 0:05:00it would be odd to say that we don't need language rights.
0:05:00 > 0:05:07It's important in creating confidence and that leads to use.
0:05:07 > 0:05:12We don't use the language because we don't have the confidence.
0:05:12 > 0:05:16We have lived in a situation for five centuries where it was
0:05:16 > 0:05:19not an official language in Wales, but today, it is official.
0:05:19 > 0:05:23It is an official language and it has been for two years.
0:05:23 > 0:05:26Let's build on those foundations.
0:05:26 > 0:05:32But the numbers speaking Welsh has fallen,
0:05:32 > 0:05:37despite legislation.
0:05:37 > 0:05:39Over the centuries,
0:05:39 > 0:05:43people in Wales were speaking Welsh without legislation.
0:05:43 > 0:05:47The most important right is the responsibility of Welsh language
0:05:47 > 0:05:54parents to transfer the language from one generation to the next.
0:05:54 > 0:05:57What is sad and I acknowledge the point, is that you have
0:05:57 > 0:06:00one in four or one in five parents, Welsh-speaking parents
0:06:00 > 0:06:07who for some reason do not transfer the language to the child.
0:06:07 > 0:06:10That's vitally important if you want to save the language.
0:06:10 > 0:06:14The people need to save it, not through legislation.
0:06:14 > 0:06:16And it's not a contest.
0:06:16 > 0:06:20Legislation is extremely important to create that confidence.
0:06:20 > 0:06:22Use is also important.
0:06:22 > 0:06:25We need to look at why people aren't using
0:06:25 > 0:06:27the language in different situations
0:06:27 > 0:06:31but a lack of legislation won't change that situation.
0:06:31 > 0:06:37Are our priorities right?
0:06:37 > 0:06:43I think we need to move hand-in-hand, rights and use.
0:06:43 > 0:06:46When I look at the results of the census,
0:06:46 > 0:06:53I'm disappointed with the situation.
0:06:53 > 0:06:57What is happening?
0:06:57 > 0:07:02What about Felix's line? Wasting money on translations?
0:07:02 > 0:07:09Since when is translating and using the Welsh language a waste of time?
0:07:09 > 0:07:10The Welsh people don't use them.
0:07:10 > 0:07:14The Welsh people are voting with their feet.
0:07:14 > 0:07:18Either the translations are too complicated for them
0:07:18 > 0:07:23or they choose to fill these forms in English.
0:07:23 > 0:07:26If someone wants a Welsh form, they can ask for a form
0:07:26 > 0:07:32but if you send out thousands of forms,
0:07:32 > 0:07:35people don't use them and it's a waste of money.
0:07:35 > 0:07:38Why should we have to ask for forms?
0:07:38 > 0:07:40Shouldn't it be something we receive naturally?
0:07:40 > 0:07:44That's why people don't use Welsh forms.
0:07:44 > 0:07:48They think, do I have the right to ask for it?
0:07:48 > 0:07:52It's easier not to. I don't want to upset anyone.
0:07:52 > 0:07:56The individual should be free to choose.
0:07:56 > 0:07:58Feel free to applaud. That's acceptable.
0:07:58 > 0:08:00Perhaps I should be a politician.
0:08:00 > 0:08:04I can see both sides.
0:08:04 > 0:08:06- Sitting on the fence! - We need a framework
0:08:06 > 0:08:11and over the years there's been a framework put in place.
0:08:11 > 0:08:14We should be promoting the language.
0:08:14 > 0:08:18or should we look at complaints?
0:08:18 > 0:08:22Promoting it, I think.
0:08:22 > 0:08:25So you're more with Felix than with Mary?
0:08:25 > 0:08:29I think the problem is that if you go with the minority,
0:08:29 > 0:08:35then there is a chance that you are isolating the majority.
0:08:35 > 0:08:43The Welsh language needs goodwill from non-Welsh speakers.
0:08:43 > 0:08:47I'm sure Mary wouldn't disagree with that. Adam Price?
0:08:47 > 0:08:51It's no surprise that I would agree more with Mary
0:08:51 > 0:08:53than with Felix.
0:08:53 > 0:08:56But it's nice to hear you speaking nonsense, Felix,
0:08:56 > 0:09:03with such a rich command of the Welsh language.
0:09:03 > 0:09:11Legislation is vital as a basis but it's not enough.
0:09:11 > 0:09:17It will not save the language.
0:09:17 > 0:09:22I agree with what's behind the question.
0:09:22 > 0:09:28The period of emphasising rights is over.
0:09:28 > 0:09:31That battle has been won.
0:09:31 > 0:09:36The next thing is to use the language in our communities.
0:09:36 > 0:09:42There's a lot of work to be done.
0:09:42 > 0:09:46Economic futures of these areas,
0:09:46 > 0:09:49you're talking about people voting with their feet.
0:09:49 > 0:09:52People have to leave these Welsh-speaking communities
0:09:52 > 0:09:55because of a lack of work.
0:09:55 > 0:09:58Hopefully we'll see S4C moving to Carmarthen.
0:09:58 > 0:10:05We need jobs in the West and without jobs,
0:10:05 > 0:10:11people cannot afford to live in these areas.
0:10:11 > 0:10:15What about the right to use the Welsh language in these
0:10:15 > 0:10:17counties in schools?
0:10:20 > 0:10:24You need the jobs.
0:10:24 > 0:10:26Is the battle over?
0:10:26 > 0:10:29No, I don't think so.
0:10:29 > 0:10:35I think there is a lack of rights in this area as far as education provision.
0:10:35 > 0:10:41One thing I see daily is pensions from London,
0:10:41 > 0:10:43benefits from London,
0:10:43 > 0:10:47the UK Government saying, no,
0:10:47 > 0:10:49we don't need to do that in Welsh.
0:10:49 > 0:10:52That battle isn't over.
0:10:52 > 0:10:55We need to keep going.
0:10:55 > 0:11:00This emphasis on rights has turned into an obsession.
0:11:00 > 0:11:06And that is turning people against the language.
0:11:06 > 0:11:10They want to see the language being used every day,
0:11:10 > 0:11:15not this technical language.
0:11:15 > 0:11:22It's part of the middle class, that's what's turning people off.
0:11:22 > 0:11:26What I meant was the argument for making it,
0:11:26 > 0:11:32giving it equal status, has been won.
0:11:32 > 0:11:35In theory.
0:11:35 > 0:11:40I won't disagree with the Commissioner.
0:11:40 > 0:11:42Let me ask one thing.
0:11:42 > 0:11:48These rights are what your job is about - right, Meri?
0:11:48 > 0:11:52No. Rights are important.
0:11:52 > 0:11:57The official status of the language in 2011...
0:11:57 > 0:12:00But what about the promotion that the Welsh Language Board...
0:12:00 > 0:12:06This is still part of our work from day-to-day.
0:12:06 > 0:12:10It has as much emphasis as ever before.
0:12:10 > 0:12:14There's a lot more focus on this work now.
0:12:14 > 0:12:17I'll return to the panel later. A good start.
0:12:17 > 0:12:19Gwen, you asked the question?
0:12:19 > 0:12:24I think we should promote the use of the language, especially education.
0:12:24 > 0:12:32I come from an area where I've received Welsh medium education
0:12:32 > 0:12:36and, although the education is fantastic, I don't feel that I
0:12:36 > 0:12:42have enough opportunity to speak the language outside of the classroom.
0:12:42 > 0:12:47Unfortunately, I don't think that the council will provide
0:12:47 > 0:12:51Welsh schools in the future.
0:12:51 > 0:12:58Is that right? We are talking about rights here.
0:12:58 > 0:13:04The most important rights that we need as young people who can
0:13:04 > 0:13:10speak Welsh in this county is the right to a Welsh education,
0:13:10 > 0:13:12in a Welsh school.
0:13:12 > 0:13:17I'm very pleased to be a sixth form pupil
0:13:17 > 0:13:25but considering I live in the biggest county in Wales,
0:13:26 > 0:13:31isn't it awful that I have to travel
0:13:31 > 0:13:33over the border to go to a Welsh school?
0:13:33 > 0:13:39Education doesn't stop in the classroom
0:13:39 > 0:13:44and being a pupil in a Welsh community is part of a Welsh school,
0:13:44 > 0:13:49family, where everyone appreciates our culture
0:13:49 > 0:13:52and language is important
0:13:52 > 0:13:56and provides us an opportunity to promote the language
0:13:56 > 0:14:00and it's very sad that there are people here, young people,
0:14:00 > 0:14:02Welsh speakers,
0:14:02 > 0:14:06who are being ignored and are losing out on those opportunities.
0:14:12 > 0:14:16Does that mean you travel quite a distance to school?
0:14:16 > 0:14:19Around an hour in the morning.
0:14:19 > 0:14:23And we feel luck lucky, it's a postcode lottery.
0:14:23 > 0:14:26We are close enough to be able to go to this Welsh school
0:14:26 > 0:14:28but not everyone can.
0:14:28 > 0:14:36In a time of cuts, maybe the council would say there's not the demand?
0:14:40 > 0:14:45It's the closure of rural schools
0:14:45 > 0:14:51that's to blame.
0:14:51 > 0:14:54I have a question.
0:14:54 > 0:14:59I thought you were going to contribute to this discussion.
0:14:59 > 0:15:05We need to ensure that there is provision for bilingual services.
0:15:05 > 0:15:11There have been cutbacks in Powys.
0:15:11 > 0:15:16Children have to travel to schools in other counties,
0:15:16 > 0:15:24as has been mentioned.
0:15:24 > 0:15:27Glyn Powell.
0:15:27 > 0:15:29I have a quick comment.
0:15:29 > 0:15:33Why aren't the regions doing more for the Welsh language?
0:15:33 > 0:15:39These rugby teams are very English.
0:15:39 > 0:15:44An announcement: "Oh, 30-8 for so-and-so."
0:15:44 > 0:15:46That's all you'll get.
0:15:46 > 0:15:49But this isn't being practical.
0:15:49 > 0:15:54I wanted to put some money aside
0:15:54 > 0:16:00for my children, my grandchildren,
0:16:00 > 0:16:03with National Savings and I had a letter back saying
0:16:03 > 0:16:05they didn't provide a Welsh service.
0:16:05 > 0:16:10But we need enthusiastic teachers.
0:16:10 > 0:16:13We are relying on Welsh learn learners.
0:16:13 > 0:16:16We all have to become tutors.
0:16:16 > 0:16:19We shouldn't belittle learners.
0:16:19 > 0:16:22We have no patience.
0:16:22 > 0:16:25How many of you write cheques in Welsh?
0:16:25 > 0:16:29If you don't, it's just idle talk.
0:16:29 > 0:16:32So you agree with Felix?
0:16:32 > 0:16:34In some ways. We have rights.
0:16:38 > 0:16:42Legislation and rights has been important
0:16:42 > 0:16:47and the fact that we are in a healthier situation is a good thing.
0:16:47 > 0:16:50But we've seen examples of young people tonight who've been
0:16:50 > 0:16:54through the Welsh system that we have in Powys.
0:16:54 > 0:16:57But as well as trying to develop Welsh education
0:16:57 > 0:17:00and Welsh schools, we've also developed a system or we should
0:17:00 > 0:17:08develop a system where they can use the language outside of schools.
0:17:08 > 0:17:11Is that difficult in Powys?
0:17:11 > 0:17:13That is difficult.
0:17:13 > 0:17:17There are examples of how young people
0:17:17 > 0:17:21can get together to socialise.
0:17:21 > 0:17:29The same thing could have happened with the Welsh Lang language.
0:17:29 > 0:17:34We need to emphasise, not only on education
0:17:34 > 0:17:37but also what they do outside of school.
0:17:37 > 0:17:41That's an argument we often hear.
0:17:41 > 0:17:45I'll return to the back row.
0:17:45 > 0:17:48I'm lucky.
0:17:48 > 0:17:52I went to a Welsh school,
0:17:52 > 0:17:55but what I feel is it's difficult to use the language outside our school.
0:17:55 > 0:17:58I went to the local medical centre
0:17:58 > 0:18:03and it was difficult to get a Welsh language service.
0:18:03 > 0:18:06Why is it such an unusual thing to be able to use the language
0:18:06 > 0:18:14and feel comfortable using it?
0:18:14 > 0:18:19It shouldn't just be used in the classroom.
0:18:19 > 0:18:23I'll approach the panel.
0:18:23 > 0:18:26I know you're keen to answer, Meri.
0:18:26 > 0:18:29Can I thank those who've spoken.
0:18:29 > 0:18:35That's why we need to keep fighting and insist on our rights.
0:18:35 > 0:18:43I was in court last week
0:18:43 > 0:18:48challenging National Savings on that.
0:18:48 > 0:18:54I think a balance is important.
0:18:54 > 0:18:58To keep the Welsh language alive,
0:18:58 > 0:19:02we need to promote it on a practical level.
0:19:02 > 0:19:05That's more important than any legislation.
0:19:05 > 0:19:07What about the language in Powys, Adam Price?
0:19:07 > 0:19:09I remember reading a paper saying that you needed to
0:19:09 > 0:19:14concentrate on west Wales.
0:19:14 > 0:19:19Are you forgetting these people?
0:19:19 > 0:19:20Certainly not.
0:19:20 > 0:19:24We need different strategies for different parts of Wales.
0:19:24 > 0:19:26Different areas' needs are different.
0:19:26 > 0:19:30It's clear we need improved provision for Welsh language
0:19:30 > 0:19:34education in Powys.
0:19:34 > 0:19:41In other parts, there are different matters.
0:19:41 > 0:19:43The needs are going to be different
0:19:43 > 0:19:46and we need different debates to reflect that.
0:19:51 > 0:19:56We'll take a short break.
0:20:12 > 0:20:16Welcome back.
0:20:16 > 0:20:20We are in Brecon this evening.
0:20:20 > 0:20:26Let's go to the next question.
0:20:26 > 0:20:32Welsh county councils are having to make difficult decisions
0:20:32 > 0:20:34regarding cuts.
0:20:34 > 0:20:37What would you cut?
0:20:38 > 0:20:39Thanks very much.
0:20:39 > 0:20:43Welsh county councils are currently having to make difficult
0:20:43 > 0:20:45decisions regarding cuts.
0:20:45 > 0:20:47We hear about this more or less every day.
0:20:47 > 0:20:51What would you cut?
0:20:51 > 0:20:54I'll start with Adam Price this time.
0:20:54 > 0:20:56It's a difficult situation.
0:20:56 > 0:21:03I would argue that we should not be in this situation.
0:21:03 > 0:21:08It's due to the financial settlement from England that's cutting back
0:21:08 > 0:21:15unnecessarily considering the economic situation,
0:21:15 > 0:21:19but there we are, that is the situation.
0:21:19 > 0:21:23Councils have been meeting tonight to discuss the cutbacks.
0:21:23 > 0:21:26Isn't the fact that the economy is strengthening
0:21:26 > 0:21:29proving that these moves are vital?
0:21:29 > 0:21:33There is a wider argument.
0:21:33 > 0:21:38I think there is a consensus in Wales
0:21:38 > 0:21:42that it is foolish
0:21:42 > 0:21:48to endanger the growth in the economy by cutting back
0:21:48 > 0:21:52on Public Services,
0:21:52 > 0:21:55but there we are, that's the situation we find ourselves in.
0:21:55 > 0:21:57I think we can be more creative.
0:21:57 > 0:22:00The first thing I would do is cut back on the wages
0:22:00 > 0:22:02of senior officials.
0:22:02 > 0:22:05We have seen a number of scandals in Wales.
0:22:09 > 0:22:13I don't want to libel anyone, unlike we have seen in some councils,
0:22:13 > 0:22:17no-one will pay my legal costs.
0:22:17 > 0:22:24We have seen a situation
0:22:24 > 0:22:29where the people at the top who do not
0:22:29 > 0:22:33really add any value receive these high wages.
0:22:33 > 0:22:39I would also look at merging services,
0:22:39 > 0:22:44bring health and social services together.
0:22:44 > 0:22:47It makes sense.
0:22:47 > 0:22:50You can then deliver a better service.
0:22:50 > 0:22:53There are savings to be made.
0:22:53 > 0:22:55So for the reorganisation...
0:22:55 > 0:22:58This has been happening in Northern Ireland for 30 years
0:22:58 > 0:23:03and there's evidence that it's meant an increase for the people.
0:23:03 > 0:23:08And it makes it more cost-effective.
0:23:08 > 0:23:12Look at Estonia, a small country, using new technology
0:23:12 > 0:23:19in a creative manner to provide a better service and save money.
0:23:19 > 0:23:24So there are things that can be done.
0:23:24 > 0:23:28I'm not a Tory by any stretch of the imagination,
0:23:28 > 0:23:34but some councils which have Tory members have managed to avoid
0:23:34 > 0:23:40cutting back on services
0:23:40 > 0:23:43because they've been preparing
0:23:43 > 0:23:46for two years speaking to the people,
0:23:46 > 0:23:48asking the people.
0:23:48 > 0:23:50It's a question for the people.
0:23:50 > 0:23:55What can we do differently to safeguard core services
0:23:55 > 0:23:57that are important to the area
0:23:57 > 0:23:59while also saving money?
0:23:59 > 0:24:01Adam praising the Conservatives.
0:24:01 > 0:24:08I'm very pleased to hear that.
0:24:08 > 0:24:10I agree with the principle.
0:24:10 > 0:24:14It's awful that any Chief Executive of the council receives
0:24:14 > 0:24:19a higher wage than the First Minister or the Prime Minister.
0:24:23 > 0:24:25Everyone seems to agree on that.
0:24:25 > 0:24:29There are too many pen-pushers, administrators,
0:24:29 > 0:24:32rather than those front-line workers
0:24:32 > 0:24:35and on top of that,
0:24:35 > 0:24:37I would say what
0:24:37 > 0:24:41is vitally important is that there are too many councils in Wales.
0:24:41 > 0:24:45We need to cut the numbers down to six or seven.
0:24:45 > 0:24:48I know that a number of councillors do excellent work,
0:24:48 > 0:24:53but we could also halve the number of councillors in Wales.
0:24:53 > 0:24:59Many of the rural wards in the west and the north,
0:24:59 > 0:25:04you have areas with a low population
0:25:04 > 0:25:08and you have so many councillors
0:25:08 > 0:25:11that two or three could do the job,
0:25:11 > 0:25:13of six or seven councillors
0:25:13 > 0:25:16so there is room to cut back.
0:25:16 > 0:25:19I would like to go to the audience but Adam says it's a
0:25:19 > 0:25:24consensus that that is not the economic policy needed.
0:25:24 > 0:25:29We need to act and anyone with a credit card would say that
0:25:29 > 0:25:35if you borrow more money when you are in debt, you go bankrupt.
0:25:35 > 0:25:38We don't want to be the next, Greece, Portugal or Spain.
0:25:38 > 0:25:42George Osborne is bringing us economic stability.
0:25:42 > 0:25:50We are all in this together.
0:25:52 > 0:25:56That's not the first time that Felix has talked about the consensus.
0:25:56 > 0:25:59Sandra, where are you?
0:25:59 > 0:26:01There are some very important ideas
0:26:01 > 0:26:07and I'm pleased to hear the public's rights being considered
0:26:07 > 0:26:14because it would be a bad thing if we lost services, education,
0:26:14 > 0:26:19leisure centres and provision for the elderly so thank you.
0:26:19 > 0:26:21Rod Stallard?
0:26:24 > 0:26:26We need to step back
0:26:26 > 0:26:31and look at where the resources of this country are used.
0:26:31 > 0:26:38The Government is willing to spend money on nuclear weapons
0:26:38 > 0:26:39and wars and,
0:26:39 > 0:26:42if we cut back on those,
0:26:42 > 0:26:47maybe we could continue with the necessary services.
0:26:50 > 0:26:54I agree with the nuclear weapons.
0:26:54 > 0:27:00Who is ever going to use them?
0:27:00 > 0:27:03We are talking about all these millions on Trident
0:27:03 > 0:27:05and whose finger is on the button?
0:27:05 > 0:27:07The President of America. It's nothing to do with us.
0:27:07 > 0:27:10I must answer that.
0:27:10 > 0:27:13War is an awful thing, so are nuclear weapons,
0:27:13 > 0:27:18but because of the balance of power between the old Soviet Union
0:27:18 > 0:27:24and NATO in Western Europe, nuclear weapons ensure that we have
0:27:24 > 0:27:27peace in Europe following the Second World War.
0:27:27 > 0:27:34I would add that if nuclear weapons were in the Ukraine today,
0:27:34 > 0:27:38would Russia be threatening to attack?
0:27:38 > 0:27:43If you have nuclear weapons, the bully doesn't threaten you.
0:27:43 > 0:27:48I feel sorry for the people of Ukraine fighting for freedom
0:27:48 > 0:27:54and Russia, the bully, attacking them.
0:27:54 > 0:28:01I don't want to have a debate on nuclear weapons right now.
0:28:01 > 0:28:06Nuclear weapons is the bully itself.
0:28:06 > 0:28:12It stopped wars because if there were nuclear weapons on one
0:28:12 > 0:28:14side and nuclear weapons on the other,
0:28:14 > 0:28:17then both sides are too afraid to press the button.
0:28:17 > 0:28:20It's a deterrent.
0:28:20 > 0:28:22What about the cuts in Powys?
0:28:22 > 0:28:26We didn't have an answer this week.
0:28:26 > 0:28:31I signed a petition protesting
0:28:31 > 0:28:33about the way Powys was intending
0:28:33 > 0:28:37to close units for children
0:28:37 > 0:28:44on intensive care units and integrate.
0:28:44 > 0:28:50But they changed their minds because of the pressure put on them.
0:28:50 > 0:28:54Also, these day centres for the elderly where
0:28:54 > 0:28:57they come for the day for company and so on,
0:28:57 > 0:29:01they are going to increase the prices from £6 a day
0:29:01 > 0:29:02to £36 a day.
0:29:02 > 0:29:05But cutbacks need to be made.
0:29:05 > 0:29:10But those kinds of cutbacks
0:29:10 > 0:29:15are against the weakest in society.
0:29:15 > 0:29:21The authority should be looking into saving money
0:29:21 > 0:29:23within the council.
0:29:23 > 0:29:26Back to the audience.
0:29:26 > 0:29:33I find it daft really that we have 22 local authorities
0:29:33 > 0:29:38looking after three million people.
0:29:38 > 0:29:39Obviously that will change.
0:29:39 > 0:29:44You look at the health boards, there are seven.
0:29:44 > 0:29:47It needs to follow that sort of pattern.
0:29:47 > 0:29:50The problem is that the people affected most
0:29:50 > 0:29:53are the weakest in society.
0:29:53 > 0:29:55The elderly and the poor.
0:29:55 > 0:30:01Years ago, communities were stronger
0:30:01 > 0:30:04and if you had problems,
0:30:04 > 0:30:07then people would help.
0:30:07 > 0:30:13I think that we have moved backwards that aspect.
0:30:13 > 0:30:17Life has changed.
0:30:17 > 0:30:23There isn't that support.
0:30:23 > 0:30:27We often read about the elderly, for example,
0:30:27 > 0:30:32maybe without any contact with people for days on end.
0:30:32 > 0:30:38I think this may make things worse.
0:30:38 > 0:30:41There are cutbacks in our budget.
0:30:41 > 0:30:43We are going through the same process.
0:30:43 > 0:30:47So are other bodies.
0:30:47 > 0:30:51I want to go back to the previous point.
0:30:51 > 0:30:55Vulnerable people, the young, the elderly, what worries me
0:30:55 > 0:30:58sitting here as the Welsh Language Commissioner is the need that
0:30:58 > 0:31:04some people see to make cuts for Welsh
0:31:04 > 0:31:07because there is certainly
0:31:07 > 0:31:15a debate taking place on that, providing services in English.
0:31:17 > 0:31:21If you want to safeguard services, where would you cut?
0:31:21 > 0:31:24Where would the axe fall?
0:31:24 > 0:31:31This is a disastrous situation and we don't want to see any cutbacks.
0:31:31 > 0:31:39I think Gareth's put his finger on it and we need to look at society.
0:31:39 > 0:31:42We also need to look at the voluntary sector.
0:31:42 > 0:31:46There are some things where Government
0:31:46 > 0:31:49on a local and national level should be providing.
0:31:49 > 0:31:52There are things we should be doing as a society.
0:31:52 > 0:31:56I think a more positive way for us
0:31:56 > 0:32:00to have this debate is to say
0:32:00 > 0:32:03what do we want to protect,
0:32:03 > 0:32:08what do we want to provide, as far as vital services?
0:32:08 > 0:32:11Where will the state provide
0:32:11 > 0:32:19and where can we then provide voluntarily?
0:32:19 > 0:32:24Through a combination of that, I think, even facing this
0:32:24 > 0:32:29situation, at least we can protect
0:32:29 > 0:32:32what we all think is important.
0:32:32 > 0:32:38We have to go for another break.
0:32:55 > 0:32:57Welcome back.
0:32:57 > 0:33:00We are in Brecon this evening.
0:33:00 > 0:33:03We are having a lively night of debate.
0:33:03 > 0:33:06Time now for our third question.
0:33:06 > 0:33:11Does the panel agree that the Welsh Rugby Union
0:33:11 > 0:33:16and the regions must cooperate
0:33:16 > 0:33:20in order to secure a successful future for the game in Wales?
0:33:20 > 0:33:21There we are.
0:33:21 > 0:33:26We have got the perfect man here to answer that question.
0:33:26 > 0:33:31I'm the secretary of Brecon RFC.
0:33:31 > 0:33:36Does the panel agree that the Welsh Rugby Union
0:33:36 > 0:33:43and the regions must cooperate in order to secure a successful future?
0:33:43 > 0:33:46I'm sure that the entire panel would say that is true.
0:33:46 > 0:33:50A couple of years ago,
0:33:50 > 0:33:56there was a survey into the situation
0:33:56 > 0:34:00and it's something that cost around £60,000.
0:34:00 > 0:34:05The only conclusion from the report
0:34:05 > 0:34:09was that the regions and the union need to cooperate.
0:34:09 > 0:34:12There were a number of other options considered -
0:34:12 > 0:34:14should we have more regions, fewer regions?
0:34:14 > 0:34:21The problem now with all this rowing
0:34:21 > 0:34:27that's been going on,
0:34:27 > 0:34:32is the fact that any trust between
0:34:32 > 0:34:34the unions and the regions has been destroyed.
0:34:34 > 0:34:39I think what sparked it all off was the statement
0:34:39 > 0:34:44that the regions had to sign up
0:34:44 > 0:34:47before the end of last year
0:34:47 > 0:34:49and if we didn't, the four regions would go.
0:34:49 > 0:34:54I think that was tactically foolish
0:34:54 > 0:34:57and I think there was a feeling
0:34:57 > 0:34:59that the regions would sign.
0:34:59 > 0:35:04You blame Roger Lewis?
0:35:04 > 0:35:06I don't know if it was Roger.
0:35:06 > 0:35:13I would blame the Chief Executive of the board.
0:35:13 > 0:35:16He obviously leads the way
0:35:16 > 0:35:19but I think it was the board's responsibility to
0:35:19 > 0:35:22solve the problem, not start making threats.
0:35:22 > 0:35:26Three days after the deadline,
0:35:26 > 0:35:30there was another arrangement.
0:35:30 > 0:35:38So the relationship has been affected.
0:35:38 > 0:35:42There's a lot of confusion.
0:35:42 > 0:35:46Do you understand what's going on?
0:35:46 > 0:35:50I have an idea.
0:35:50 > 0:35:54The situation is that the WRU are not willing to give up
0:35:54 > 0:35:56any control,
0:35:56 > 0:36:02so they control everything but the regions are taking the risk.
0:36:02 > 0:36:04We have to employ the players.
0:36:04 > 0:36:09Ron, are you worried about the future of rugby?
0:36:09 > 0:36:15Yes and I feel there's posturing from both sides,
0:36:15 > 0:36:18the regions and the union.
0:36:18 > 0:36:19Including Gareth?
0:36:19 > 0:36:25Well, everyone agreed that we need to work together.
0:36:25 > 0:36:29But there are a lot of problems with central contracts.
0:36:29 > 0:36:35The union says that that's the way forward, the regions say no.
0:36:35 > 0:36:41At some point they need to work together.
0:36:41 > 0:36:46The central contract, it's a bit of a red herring.
0:36:46 > 0:36:50What we need to establish first
0:36:50 > 0:36:52is what competitions we are playing in.
0:36:52 > 0:36:55It's March on Saturday
0:36:55 > 0:36:58and we don't know what we're doing in four or five months' time.
0:36:58 > 0:37:02So for the players, the sponsors, the regions,
0:37:02 > 0:37:06we have no idea what we are doing next year.
0:37:06 > 0:37:10What about you - who do you represent?
0:37:10 > 0:37:12Llandovery Rugby Club.
0:37:12 > 0:37:16To be fair to Gareth, he hasn't been in the job long.
0:37:16 > 0:37:24I would say that I think the regions
0:37:24 > 0:37:30are the jigsaw that doesn't really work in Wales.
0:37:30 > 0:37:33The Welsh team's been successful,
0:37:33 > 0:37:39the youth teams are enjoying success,
0:37:39 > 0:37:44but what I would like to ask is
0:37:44 > 0:37:47representing of the Principality League.
0:37:47 > 0:37:54We have to give a three-year business plan to the
0:37:54 > 0:37:58Welsh Rugby Union and I see a lot of money being wasted going
0:37:58 > 0:38:02to overseas players, people on high wages
0:38:02 > 0:38:07and I just wonder if you have to provide the Welsh rugby
0:38:07 > 0:38:12with a plan so there is some transparency as to where the money is being spent.
0:38:12 > 0:38:16I don't want to scrap this
0:38:16 > 0:38:21but I think things have to change, they haven't been successful.
0:38:21 > 0:38:27Adam Price, you enjoy rugby?
0:38:27 > 0:38:29Yes, of course. I'm from the Amman Valley.
0:38:29 > 0:38:31I don't have a choice.
0:38:31 > 0:38:35But looking at it from the outside, I agree,
0:38:35 > 0:38:38the regional experiment,
0:38:38 > 0:38:46although I think it was the right aim,
0:38:46 > 0:38:49hasn't been a success so far,
0:38:49 > 0:38:53if we look at the Irish provinces and regions.
0:38:53 > 0:38:59Maybe there are different reasons.
0:38:59 > 0:39:05Graham Henry came up with the idea and what he wanted to do
0:39:05 > 0:39:09was have the same model as Ireland where they were part
0:39:09 > 0:39:14of the union and these rows would not be taking place
0:39:14 > 0:39:17because there would be a pattern and a structure
0:39:17 > 0:39:24with four divisions in a way, sub-regions.
0:39:24 > 0:39:27Maybe we should be looking at that model.
0:39:27 > 0:39:33Defending the regions,
0:39:33 > 0:39:40they have developed these players for the national side.
0:39:40 > 0:39:46As far as wasting money on overseas players,
0:39:46 > 0:39:49it's a shame that we haven't the same situation as Ireland
0:39:49 > 0:39:51right from the start.
0:39:51 > 0:39:55You look at Ireland now and Ulster, for example,
0:39:55 > 0:40:03make a big South African signing and it works out.
0:40:04 > 0:40:07If I pretended to express an opinion about this situation,
0:40:07 > 0:40:10most of my family and friends would know that I was lying
0:40:10 > 0:40:12because I don't know what's going on.
0:40:12 > 0:40:15But the impression I get by looking from the outside is that the
0:40:15 > 0:40:21Union has lost all connection with the supporters and the communities.
0:40:21 > 0:40:24The way it deals with the Welsh language,
0:40:24 > 0:40:27or the way it doesn't deal with the Welsh language at the moment,
0:40:27 > 0:40:33shows it is behaving like an American-like company
0:40:33 > 0:40:35living in some cocoon in the middle of Cardiff
0:40:35 > 0:40:38and it has lost that connection and I think that's a disgrace.
0:40:38 > 0:40:41Thank you. Felix? You look like a former player!
0:40:41 > 0:40:45As someone who has played a lot of rugby in the past,
0:40:45 > 0:40:46in school and in college,
0:40:46 > 0:40:50I'm very concerned about the situation.
0:40:50 > 0:40:53Gareth has outlined the situation.
0:40:53 > 0:40:55He is the expert
0:40:55 > 0:40:59and I think it's best to let the experts sort things out.
0:40:59 > 0:41:02Fair enough. You can have the last word on this, Gareth.
0:41:02 > 0:41:04Is it a concern that so many people
0:41:04 > 0:41:07flood to watch Cardiff and Swansea play football?
0:41:07 > 0:41:11I know that some rugby supporters have gone in that direction.
0:41:11 > 0:41:15It is certainly a competition, but life is a competition.
0:41:15 > 0:41:17We can't afford to fall out, as we are doing,
0:41:17 > 0:41:20because all we're doing is ensuring that more people
0:41:20 > 0:41:24go to watch football instead of following rugby.
0:41:24 > 0:41:27We have one more question before the end of the programme
0:41:27 > 0:41:29and it comes from Meinir Jones.
0:41:29 > 0:41:33The Standard Life company has announced today
0:41:33 > 0:41:38that it could leave Scotland if the country becomes independent.
0:41:38 > 0:41:41How much of a blow is an announcement like this
0:41:41 > 0:41:44to the campaign in favour of independence?
0:41:44 > 0:41:48The Standard Life company has announced it could leave Scotland
0:41:48 > 0:41:50if it becomes independent.
0:41:50 > 0:41:54How much of a blow is an announcement like this to the campaign in favour of independence?
0:41:54 > 0:41:56Let's begin with you, Meri.
0:41:56 > 0:41:58It's interesting to watch this process.
0:41:58 > 0:42:01We heard about the row over the pound three weeks ago.
0:42:01 > 0:42:05Keeping the pound or not keeping it if Scotland becomes independent.
0:42:05 > 0:42:08Then there was the discussion about Europe.
0:42:08 > 0:42:15And now today, this concern that Standard Life is going to move away.
0:42:15 > 0:42:18Everyone is concerned about these elements,
0:42:18 > 0:42:21and yet there is a huge elephant sitting in the room
0:42:21 > 0:42:24and everyone is denying that they want to discuss that,
0:42:24 > 0:42:28and that is oil and money, the money that comes from it.
0:42:28 > 0:42:31Watching it as a process is amazing.
0:42:31 > 0:42:36When are they going to admit that that is what truly concerns them?
0:42:36 > 0:42:38There was a lot of discussion on oil this week
0:42:38 > 0:42:41as the two cabinets went to Aberdeen. Felix?
0:42:41 > 0:42:45As one who believes in the basic principle of freedom of choice,
0:42:45 > 0:42:50Scotland has every right to vote on independence.
0:42:50 > 0:42:55But on the other hand, if they decide to do that,
0:42:55 > 0:42:57they have to accept the consequences.
0:42:57 > 0:42:59They way I see it,
0:42:59 > 0:43:02Alex Salmond is trying to get the best of both worlds.
0:43:02 > 0:43:06He thinks, we'll break away from the United Kingdom
0:43:06 > 0:43:08and England will be kind to us.
0:43:08 > 0:43:10He's setting the rules.
0:43:10 > 0:43:13He's saying, England will have to allow us to keep the pound,
0:43:13 > 0:43:16and we can stay in the European Union.
0:43:16 > 0:43:19Well, it doesn't sound much independence to me
0:43:19 > 0:43:22because if you haven't got economic independence,
0:43:22 > 0:43:24you're not an independent country.
0:43:24 > 0:43:28But doesn't Scotland have as much right to use the pound as England and Wales?
0:43:28 > 0:43:31No, because the simple fact is,
0:43:31 > 0:43:34the pound was the English currency originally.
0:43:34 > 0:43:38It was then extended when the UK was extended.
0:43:38 > 0:43:44And you have to remember, the reason Scotland joined England in 1707
0:43:44 > 0:43:47was because the Scottish economy was bankrupt,
0:43:47 > 0:43:54every Scottish pound was only worth one English shilling.
0:43:54 > 0:43:58So that is the concern now, that many companies in Scotland,
0:43:58 > 0:44:01like Standard Life and some of the other companies,
0:44:01 > 0:44:04say to Alex Salmond, you're welcome to become independent
0:44:04 > 0:44:07but you have to accept the consequences.
0:44:07 > 0:44:10And unfortunately, in an ideal world,
0:44:10 > 0:44:13if it was economically beneficial for Scotland to become independent,
0:44:13 > 0:44:15I'd say hear, hear.
0:44:15 > 0:44:18But if I was Scottish, I wouldn't see it
0:44:18 > 0:44:23as being economically beneficial with regard to work.
0:44:23 > 0:44:26If England says, no pound, they will have to go into the euro.
0:44:26 > 0:44:29You know the mess the euro is in today.
0:44:29 > 0:44:31Spain will keep them out of the European Union
0:44:31 > 0:44:34because it is worried about losing Catalonia.
0:44:34 > 0:44:36And one more thing.
0:44:36 > 0:44:40If Scotland became independent, in the short term,
0:44:40 > 0:44:43Wales would be worse off for one reason.
0:44:43 > 0:44:48We need Scotland at the discussion table with Northern Ireland
0:44:48 > 0:44:51in order to secure concessions from the Government in London.
0:44:51 > 0:44:56If we lose Scotland, Wales will only be a little lap dog for London.
0:44:56 > 0:44:59Let's have the other side of the argument from Adam Price.
0:44:59 > 0:45:01And they're listening to us now.
0:45:01 > 0:45:04I'm surprised to hear you say that, Felix.
0:45:04 > 0:45:09I'm not surprised that Standard Life has threatened this.
0:45:12 > 0:45:1620 years ago, they wrote to all of their employees
0:45:16 > 0:45:20to tell them to vote against devolution.
0:45:20 > 0:45:23So they have shown their colours in the past.
0:45:23 > 0:45:25There is a pattern here, isn't there?
0:45:25 > 0:45:28Who have we seen during the last few weeks?
0:45:28 > 0:45:31George Osborne, the spokespeople from the other parties,
0:45:31 > 0:45:35Barroso, Mark Carney, Standard Life.
0:45:35 > 0:45:38They won't be the last, by the way.
0:45:38 > 0:45:41Many leaders from these large establishments
0:45:41 > 0:45:44will come out against independence.
0:45:44 > 0:45:46Why?
0:45:46 > 0:45:48Because they're frightened.
0:45:48 > 0:45:52Every time they do this, the yes vote increases because people in Scotland
0:45:52 > 0:45:55aren't going to accept people threatening them.
0:45:55 > 0:46:00The Scottish people have enough strength of character.
0:46:00 > 0:46:05They have enough confidence to believe in themselves.
0:46:05 > 0:46:09Isn't that a good point, Felix?
0:46:09 > 0:46:12I wouldn't dare bet against them
0:46:12 > 0:46:14because Alex Salmond is betting on himself.
0:46:14 > 0:46:16I wouldn't bet against Alex Salmond.
0:46:16 > 0:46:19You'll get a chance to reply, but Gareth...
0:46:19 > 0:46:21Good luck to Scotland if they become independent, but...
0:46:21 > 0:46:23Gareth, first.
0:46:23 > 0:46:27The question was about how it was going to affect independence.
0:46:27 > 0:46:31It sounds to me like there is some campaign here.
0:46:31 > 0:46:34That Osborne has some strategy,
0:46:34 > 0:46:36by coming out with Mark Carney, and so on.
0:46:36 > 0:46:40But I just feel, have they gone too soon?
0:46:40 > 0:46:43I agree with Adam.
0:46:43 > 0:46:47I think this will encourage more Scottish people
0:46:47 > 0:46:50to vote in favour of independence.
0:46:50 > 0:46:53They may feel that they are being bullied, Felix.
0:46:53 > 0:46:57Not at all, because Scotland is part of the United Kingdom
0:46:57 > 0:47:03and so everyone across the UK is entitled to express an opinion.
0:47:03 > 0:47:06If you look at Facebook, there are groups from Wales
0:47:06 > 0:47:09in favour of independence for Scotland and groups against.
0:47:09 > 0:47:12We do have a voice, but in the end,
0:47:12 > 0:47:15the Scottish people themselves have the right to decide.
0:47:15 > 0:47:18If they want to become independent, good luck to them.
0:47:18 > 0:47:20I honestly wish them well.
0:47:20 > 0:47:22So you think it was a mistake by George Osborne
0:47:22 > 0:47:24to go up there to try and preach?
0:47:24 > 0:47:28Not at all. George Osborne is just setting out the economic facts.
0:47:28 > 0:47:30You're welcome to become independent,
0:47:30 > 0:47:32you have the right to do so,
0:47:32 > 0:47:35but we think you'll be worse off economically.
0:47:35 > 0:47:40And as the singer David Bowie said on the night of the Brit Awards,
0:47:40 > 0:47:44stay with us in the United Kingdom, we need you.
0:47:44 > 0:47:46I want to go to the audience. Meinir?
0:47:46 > 0:47:50I think Alex Salmond is a very intelligent politician.
0:47:50 > 0:47:53He knows the bottom line is money.
0:47:53 > 0:47:59I'm looking forward now to seeing him respond in a constructive way
0:47:59 > 0:48:01to these negative comments.
0:48:01 > 0:48:04If you lived in Scotland, would you vote yes or no?
0:48:04 > 0:48:06I think I would vote yes.
0:48:06 > 0:48:08You had your hand up.
0:48:08 > 0:48:11I think this company is scaremongering.
0:48:11 > 0:48:17As Adam said, I think a lot of people will come out in the media
0:48:17 > 0:48:21to try and frighten people as the campaign goes on.
0:48:21 > 0:48:26But I think that will have a positive effect on the yes campaign.
0:48:26 > 0:48:28And in the front here?
0:48:28 > 0:48:31I agree that they are scaremongering.
0:48:31 > 0:48:33At the end of the day, if Scotland becomes independent,
0:48:33 > 0:48:37the best deal for Scotland will be the same as the best deal for England,
0:48:37 > 0:48:39so they'll have to agree in the end.
0:48:39 > 0:48:41Oscar Williams at the back?
0:48:41 > 0:48:46The Prime Minister said last week that the UK Government
0:48:46 > 0:48:50would have more responsibility to look after oil income from the North Sea
0:48:50 > 0:48:54when the income during the last few years has gone down by 30%.
0:48:54 > 0:48:59How can he say he could look after the resources better than Scotland?
0:48:59 > 0:49:03You two have a sentence each to close this discussion
0:49:03 > 0:49:05and I mean a sentence. Felix?
0:49:05 > 0:49:08It is up to the Scottish people
0:49:08 > 0:49:11whether they become independent or not.
0:49:11 > 0:49:13Adam?
0:49:13 > 0:49:16The vote will be held on the date
0:49:16 > 0:49:19of the old Celtic festival, Autumn Equinox.
0:49:19 > 0:49:23If that's not a sign from the gods that they're going to win, well...
0:49:23 > 0:49:25I think they'll do it.
0:49:25 > 0:49:28That's it for tonight. Thanks to the people of Brecon.
0:49:28 > 0:49:31It's been wonderful to have your company and the company of the panel.
0:49:31 > 0:49:34Next week, we'll be in Pwllheli for the final programme of the series.
0:49:34 > 0:49:36Until then, goodbye.