0:00:25 > 0:00:28On our panel this evening, the head of Ofcom in Wales, Rhodri Williams.
0:00:28 > 0:00:31Professor Elin Haf Gruffydd Jones
0:00:31 > 0:00:34from the Film and Television Department at Aberystwyth University.
0:00:34 > 0:00:39The Plaid Cymru AM for Dwyfor Meirionnydd, Lord Dafydd Elis-Thomas.
0:00:39 > 0:00:42And Llyr Roberts, who's a lecturer in business
0:00:42 > 0:00:45for the Welsh National College in the south east.
0:00:45 > 0:00:47Please give them a warm welcome.
0:00:47 > 0:00:49APPLAUSE
0:00:59 > 0:01:02Good evening and welcome once again.
0:01:02 > 0:01:06I'm afraid we've reached our final programme of the series
0:01:06 > 0:01:09and we end the series on the Lleyn Peninsula.
0:01:09 > 0:01:12Thank you everyone who has contributed
0:01:12 > 0:01:15during the last few months and thanks for the welcome we've received
0:01:15 > 0:01:17from Llanelli to Llangefni.
0:01:17 > 0:01:22We'll be back in September with a special programme from Scotland before the referendum there.
0:01:22 > 0:01:28Tonight, we're in Pwllheli with an audience of people from the town and nearby villages.
0:01:28 > 0:01:33I hope we can squeeze in four or five questions into the next hour.
0:01:33 > 0:01:36The first question comes from Gareth Jones.
0:01:36 > 0:01:38Gareth, what is your question?
0:01:38 > 0:01:45Should Russia be punished in some way for what it has done in Crimea?
0:01:45 > 0:01:48That is the question of the week, without a doubt.
0:01:48 > 0:01:55Should Russia be punished in some way for what it has done in Crimea?
0:01:55 > 0:01:57We'll start with you, Dafydd Elis-Thomas.
0:01:57 > 0:02:01The answer from the point of view of international law, is yes.
0:02:01 > 0:02:08If a country attacks the territory of another country,
0:02:08 > 0:02:11and uses a military threat,
0:02:11 > 0:02:15especially when one side has significant weapons compared to the other,
0:02:15 > 0:02:18then that goes against international law.
0:02:18 > 0:02:22Having said that, what always happens in these situations,
0:02:22 > 0:02:27as we saw with that photo of a piece of paper someone managed to take outside Downing Street,
0:02:27 > 0:02:32the advice that was given to UK ministers was,
0:02:32 > 0:02:38don't reprimand Russia too much because we have to remember
0:02:38 > 0:02:41that's where we get our oil and energy from.
0:02:41 > 0:02:46One of my colleagues, and I work closely with him in the Assembly,
0:02:46 > 0:02:49Mick Antoniw, who is a Welsh Labour AM for Pontypridd,
0:02:49 > 0:02:51is from the Ukraine.
0:02:51 > 0:02:57He's been there recently and we get regular reports on what's happening.
0:02:57 > 0:03:01I hope now that there will be a new understanding
0:03:01 > 0:03:04of the Ukraine's importance as a country.
0:03:04 > 0:03:10It's a country that has had a variety of populations,
0:03:10 > 0:03:13languages and religions and it always has been.
0:03:13 > 0:03:17It's important we don't talk about these places as some places in eastern Europe.
0:03:17 > 0:03:23The Ukraine is actually the centre of Europe.
0:03:23 > 0:03:26It's important that we support them.
0:03:26 > 0:03:28And so there should be no punishment?
0:03:28 > 0:03:34I think we have to make Russia see sense
0:03:34 > 0:03:36about its international behaviour.
0:03:36 > 0:03:39But the truth is, countries in the West
0:03:39 > 0:03:42aren't going to impose sanctions, are they,
0:03:42 > 0:03:44because they're worried about the energy.
0:03:44 > 0:03:48And that brings us to another matter that we might discuss later.
0:03:48 > 0:03:52Thank you. Llyr Roberts, you are familiar with the country.
0:03:52 > 0:03:55Yes. Funnily enough I was in the Ukraine last summer.
0:03:55 > 0:03:58I was there around three years ago as well.
0:03:58 > 0:04:03It's frightening because I was on that square in the centre of Kiev.
0:04:03 > 0:04:05I was staying around the corner from there.
0:04:05 > 0:04:10It's strange to see these pictures on the television
0:04:10 > 0:04:12and you're reminded how close we are to that country.
0:04:12 > 0:04:17It is a European country. Kiev feels like a European city.
0:04:17 > 0:04:22It's frightening to see people being shot and killed there
0:04:22 > 0:04:25on our continent, in Europe.
0:04:25 > 0:04:26It's terrible.
0:04:26 > 0:04:31The Crimea region is a little more complicated.
0:04:31 > 0:04:34I've travelled quite a bit in that part of the world
0:04:34 > 0:04:37and there are a lot pockets in these countries
0:04:37 > 0:04:42where most of the population consider themselves to be Russian.
0:04:42 > 0:04:46There's a similar area in another country I've visited, Moldova.
0:04:46 > 0:04:48An area called Transnistria.
0:04:48 > 0:04:52There are situations, because of the Soviet Union's policies,
0:04:52 > 0:04:56where Russians have been moved into these areas.
0:04:56 > 0:05:01The situation we have now in Crimea is that most of the population
0:05:01 > 0:05:04consider themselves to be Russian.
0:05:04 > 0:05:07And if they want to be a part of Russia, why shouldn't they be?
0:05:07 > 0:05:11We look at Scotland now and we say, Scottish people have the right to have a referendum
0:05:11 > 0:05:15so who are we in the West to lecture people living in the Crimea region?
0:05:15 > 0:05:19I'm getting into complicated territory now and I'm not sure where I stand, to be honest.
0:05:19 > 0:05:25But it is strange and very sad to see people being killed
0:05:25 > 0:05:29on our continent in the 21st century.
0:05:29 > 0:05:31Elin Haf Gruffydd Jones.
0:05:31 > 0:05:37This referendum in the Crimea region has been called today.
0:05:37 > 0:05:41It is due to be held in around a fortnight.
0:05:41 > 0:05:43- Sooner than that even.- Sooner.
0:05:43 > 0:05:48The process in Scotland has taken a lot longer than a fortnight.
0:05:48 > 0:05:54We also know that the populations in that country vary
0:05:54 > 0:05:57and that there are differences with regard to language and so on.
0:05:57 > 0:06:03But a modern country is supposed to be able to sustain a varied population.
0:06:03 > 0:06:10We also know that the Ukraine is in an important place strategically.
0:06:10 > 0:06:12The European Union this afternoon
0:06:12 > 0:06:16has been trying to put a package together
0:06:16 > 0:06:23to ensure that there is support for the energy industry in the Ukraine.
0:06:23 > 0:06:26But it's a very complicated situation.
0:06:26 > 0:06:32It's also typical of how aggressive Putin is being,
0:06:32 > 0:06:37not just outside his country but inside his own country as well.
0:06:37 > 0:06:40We know there are many problems in Russia.
0:06:40 > 0:06:44The lack of democracy within the Ukraine
0:06:44 > 0:06:47has led to many of the problems within the Ukraine
0:06:47 > 0:06:50and the situation it faces today.
0:06:50 > 0:06:56Rhodri Williams, is there a concern that Putin could decide to move further?
0:06:56 > 0:06:58If he is not punished and stopped,
0:06:58 > 0:07:02he could look towards Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania.
0:07:02 > 0:07:07He could do that, even if people do threaten him.
0:07:07 > 0:07:11The truth is, nobody is going to go to war with Russia,
0:07:11 > 0:07:15nobody is going to raise arms against Russia.
0:07:15 > 0:07:18I agree with what Dafydd said earlier.
0:07:18 > 0:07:23What Russia has done goes against international law, of course.
0:07:23 > 0:07:26And it is wrong, of course.
0:07:26 > 0:07:29There is clear injustice happening there.
0:07:29 > 0:07:35But on the other hand, there's no point threatening to punish
0:07:35 > 0:07:39when you don't have the ability to do it
0:07:39 > 0:07:44and I don't think the West or America has the ability
0:07:44 > 0:07:46to do that in this context.
0:07:46 > 0:07:49Making Russia see sense, as Dafydd said...
0:07:49 > 0:07:52But how do you do that without introducing some kind of measures?
0:07:52 > 0:07:54Elin, do you want to come in?
0:07:54 > 0:07:58In the end, you have to think about the meaning and worth of international law.
0:07:58 > 0:08:03If nobody is willing to consider that seriously,
0:08:03 > 0:08:07then the agreements become pointless.
0:08:07 > 0:08:10Having said that, this man, President Yanukovych,
0:08:10 > 0:08:12was elected fairly in a democratic election.
0:08:12 > 0:08:15The international community accepted it was fair.
0:08:15 > 0:08:18Yes, but he then messed with the constitution
0:08:18 > 0:08:20and that's a dangerous thing to do.
0:08:20 > 0:08:24And he interfered with the constitution
0:08:24 > 0:08:26with regard to languages.
0:08:26 > 0:08:27let's go to the audience.
0:08:27 > 0:08:31Has anyone got anything to say about the Ukraine?
0:08:31 > 0:08:32Gareth, you asked the question.
0:08:32 > 0:08:34It's a very wealthy country.
0:08:34 > 0:08:39We've heard about the Ukraine and the energy that is there.
0:08:39 > 0:08:44What frightens me is that there are countries surrounding it, and I've been to them,
0:08:44 > 0:08:46that aren't as wealthy.
0:08:46 > 0:08:51They have been very poor countries and have been under Russia's thumb.
0:08:51 > 0:08:53What if they rise up as well?
0:08:53 > 0:08:55They're nothing but a time bomb.
0:08:55 > 0:08:57Do you want to see Russia punished?
0:08:57 > 0:08:59What is your answer to your own question?
0:08:59 > 0:09:02No. I don't think it's possible.
0:09:02 > 0:09:05The panel is agreed.
0:09:05 > 0:09:09We have to talk first.
0:09:12 > 0:09:15Does anyone else want to contribute?
0:09:15 > 0:09:17Let's get the microphone to the front.
0:09:17 > 0:09:22When people say punish Russia, how can you punish Russia?
0:09:22 > 0:09:28What Russia has done isn't very good and it's not acceptable,
0:09:28 > 0:09:31but how can you punish Russia?
0:09:31 > 0:09:34It seems like a silly question to me, to be honest,
0:09:34 > 0:09:37because I don't see any way...
0:09:37 > 0:09:39David Cameron announced today, for example,
0:09:39 > 0:09:42that there are arrangements to simplify the process
0:09:42 > 0:09:45of giving visas to people from Russia
0:09:45 > 0:09:49and that those discussions will end immediately until something changes.
0:09:49 > 0:09:54Discussions were supposed to take place at the G8 in Sochi in a few months
0:09:54 > 0:09:56and those could be cancelled.
0:09:56 > 0:09:59They are small measures but they could be seen as punishment.
0:09:59 > 0:10:01Yes, but...
0:10:05 > 0:10:11If you're going to punish, you have to do something stronger
0:10:11 > 0:10:17to try and stop these terrible events in a stronger way.
0:10:17 > 0:10:23Yes, those things are important,
0:10:23 > 0:10:27but I don't know how much weight they'll carry
0:10:27 > 0:10:30against such a large country.
0:10:30 > 0:10:33Britain may already be in a fragile situation, Dafydd Elis-Thomas,
0:10:33 > 0:10:38as the country that went into Iraq and Afghanistan.
0:10:38 > 0:10:41What moral right do Britain or America or the West have
0:10:41 > 0:10:44to say to Russia, you can't do this?
0:10:44 > 0:10:50It's important that individual countries don't act individually.
0:10:50 > 0:10:56These things have to be implemented at a European Union level.
0:10:56 > 0:10:59I know Catherine Ashton and she is the representative,
0:10:59 > 0:11:04she's coming to the end of her time now, but she has done excellent work
0:11:04 > 0:11:07to try and ensure a better understanding.
0:11:07 > 0:11:15But this all still depends on European countries agreeing and cooperating.
0:11:15 > 0:11:19And don't forget, we've had some very successful sanctions in the past.
0:11:19 > 0:11:22Look at what we did in South Africa to force change.
0:11:22 > 0:11:26It's not as easy in Israel and in the case of the Palestinians.
0:11:26 > 0:11:28We have failed miserably there.
0:11:28 > 0:11:31We'll leave that topic there.
0:11:31 > 0:11:35Let's move on to our second question which comes from Luned Bedwyr.
0:11:35 > 0:11:36What is your question?
0:11:36 > 0:11:40Should students from Wales who go to a university in England
0:11:40 > 0:11:43receive the same financial support from the Government
0:11:43 > 0:11:45as the ones who stay in Wales?
0:11:45 > 0:11:48Should students from Wales who go to a university in England
0:11:48 > 0:11:51receive the same financial support from the Government
0:11:51 > 0:11:53as the ones who stay in Wales?
0:11:53 > 0:11:56This is the second time in this series we've discussed this topic.
0:11:56 > 0:12:00It is obviously popular, especially among the younger generation.
0:12:00 > 0:12:04Elin, as a lecturer in Aberystwyth, where do you stand on this?
0:12:04 > 0:12:08I think it's a complicated issue, to be honest.
0:12:08 > 0:12:12For families and students, it's simple, isn't it?
0:12:12 > 0:12:17Do we get the same support if we study in Welsh universities
0:12:17 > 0:12:20as we do over the border?
0:12:20 > 0:12:25When this policy was introduced, I think it was introduced in a way
0:12:25 > 0:12:30that was in the spirit of trying to give people opportunities
0:12:30 > 0:12:32and so on and so on.
0:12:32 > 0:12:35What's happened since then, of course,
0:12:35 > 0:12:38is that the landscape has changed.
0:12:38 > 0:12:43The Chancellor's statement before Christmas
0:12:43 > 0:12:49which raised the cap on the number of places at English universities
0:12:49 > 0:12:54means that in the end, there will be a different balance
0:12:54 > 0:12:58between how many students go from Wales to England
0:12:58 > 0:13:02and how many go from England to Wales.
0:13:02 > 0:13:08We know that universities in England are looking at students from Wales
0:13:08 > 0:13:13and are thinking, "Oh, lovely", to be completely blunt,
0:13:13 > 0:13:17because those students don't come with the same financial problems.
0:13:17 > 0:13:20So the policy is complicated. What would you do about it?
0:13:20 > 0:13:23The policy needs to be reviewed
0:13:23 > 0:13:28because we don't want too much money going out of Wales
0:13:28 > 0:13:30for the higher education sector.
0:13:30 > 0:13:33Of course I'd say that, I work in a university in Wales.
0:13:33 > 0:13:37But it's important that we acknowledge that universities
0:13:37 > 0:13:40are an important industry in Wales.
0:13:40 > 0:13:42We export, at the end of the day.
0:13:42 > 0:13:48It's a strong industry and if we want to keep our universities
0:13:48 > 0:13:53as they are across Wales, and keep them important to specific regions
0:13:53 > 0:13:56like the Aberystwyth area, like the Bangor area,
0:13:56 > 0:13:59we have to ensure there is investment
0:13:59 > 0:14:01so we can compete on a level playing field.
0:14:01 > 0:14:03Rhodri, is this policy sustainable?
0:14:03 > 0:14:06I'm not sure whether it's sustainable.
0:14:06 > 0:14:09Maybe I should declare an interest here
0:14:09 > 0:14:12because I have three children and they all studied
0:14:12 > 0:14:17at universities in England and have received this support.
0:14:17 > 0:14:19The question is, I think,
0:14:19 > 0:14:23Is the individual student the important person here
0:14:23 > 0:14:25or is it the establishments?
0:14:25 > 0:14:28I think the policy is correct.
0:14:28 > 0:14:31Is it sustainable in the long term? I don't know.
0:14:31 > 0:14:34But I do believe we should stick to the principle.
0:14:34 > 0:14:38Whatever level of support is available should be available,
0:14:38 > 0:14:43whatever university the student chooses to attend.
0:14:43 > 0:14:47Even if Welsh universities start complaining about the situation they're in?
0:14:47 > 0:14:49Yes because at the end of the day...
0:14:49 > 0:14:53Shouldn't the Welsh Government be supporting Welsh universities?
0:14:54 > 0:14:58Yes, because at the end of the day, the Welsh Government needs
0:14:58 > 0:15:01to support Welsh students and the last thing we need to do
0:15:01 > 0:15:06is to create a situation which does not encourage people
0:15:06 > 0:15:08to find the best courses.
0:15:08 > 0:15:13Another piece of work is being organised by the Government
0:15:13 > 0:15:17at the moment with regards to the small numbers of Welsh people,
0:15:17 > 0:15:19fewer than in other place,
0:15:19 > 0:15:23who are going to Oxford and Cambridge Universities.
0:15:23 > 0:15:27If you change this policy, the job of getting more people
0:15:27 > 0:15:31going to the best universities and the best courses,
0:15:31 > 0:15:33and some of them are in Wales.
0:15:33 > 0:15:35A review is being conducted at the moment
0:15:35 > 0:15:38and that will be published in two years time.
0:15:38 > 0:15:41At the moment students are all paying £3,000
0:15:41 > 0:15:44while others who don't receive grant in England pay £9,000.
0:15:44 > 0:15:46Let's go to Llyr Roberts?
0:15:48 > 0:15:51From someone who has benefited in some ways.
0:15:51 > 0:15:55This is interesting to me personally because I had the privilege
0:15:55 > 0:15:57of going to Oxford University.
0:15:57 > 0:16:01My degree was all paid for.
0:16:01 > 0:16:05I had a great time there, I broadened my horizons,
0:16:05 > 0:16:10I enjoyed the experience and had amazing courses.
0:16:10 > 0:16:13And now, I am a lecturer myself.
0:16:13 > 0:16:16- You're on the other side of the fence.- Yes.
0:16:16 > 0:16:20I work in the higher education sector in Wales.
0:16:20 > 0:16:21And so?
0:16:24 > 0:16:26Despite the fact that it's very difficult
0:16:26 > 0:16:30and I do think that back then it would have been a difficult
0:16:30 > 0:16:35decision to go to England and pay £9,000 rather than £3,500 in Wales.
0:16:35 > 0:16:38That would have been a difficult decision.
0:16:40 > 0:16:42I feel very uncomfortable that that decision
0:16:42 > 0:16:44is made difficult for students.
0:16:44 > 0:16:49But the situation where the Welsh government subsidises
0:16:49 > 0:16:53English universities to a great degree
0:16:53 > 0:16:56that's unsustainable.
0:16:56 > 0:17:00I would also say that we have the best courses here in Wales anyway
0:17:00 > 0:17:05and it's something that we should celebrate.
0:17:05 > 0:17:08We have this successful establishment.
0:17:08 > 0:17:13For me, if the policy is changed so we invest more
0:17:13 > 0:17:16in Welsh education language here in Wales,
0:17:16 > 0:17:20I support keeping the money in Wales.
0:17:20 > 0:17:24Let's talk to the young people. You asked the question.
0:17:24 > 0:17:28I think young people should get the money if they go to England
0:17:28 > 0:17:34because Welsh courses, especially in medicine, music or art,
0:17:34 > 0:17:36are much better in England
0:17:36 > 0:17:40and you get far more opportunities in England.
0:17:40 > 0:17:45I'm sure those departments in Wales would disagree with you?
0:17:45 > 0:17:49But there's not so much choice in Wales.
0:17:49 > 0:17:53They confine your choices.
0:17:53 > 0:17:55Perhaps you don't want to do one type of course.
0:17:55 > 0:17:58So the present policy is OK?
0:17:58 > 0:18:02But we'll never have that choice if we spend the money in England.
0:18:02 > 0:18:05If we keep the money in Wales, we can create a better chance.
0:18:05 > 0:18:09How about you? Microphone to the front, please.
0:18:09 > 0:18:13I'm a fifth year student doing a higher degree in Bangor
0:18:13 > 0:18:16and I'm very grateful for the financial support
0:18:16 > 0:18:19I've got from the Welsh Government.
0:18:19 > 0:18:20And another thing,
0:18:20 > 0:18:24because of the grant by the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol
0:18:24 > 0:18:27it's made me confident about being able to write more
0:18:27 > 0:18:29and use the Welsh language.
0:18:29 > 0:18:32Also, it puts us in a better position to get jobs
0:18:32 > 0:18:37and I think we need to look at where the finance goes in.
0:18:37 > 0:18:41I want to make sure my children get the same chances as me.
0:18:41 > 0:18:44What if your children wanted to go to universities
0:18:44 > 0:18:47in Liverpool, Newcastle or wherever?
0:18:47 > 0:18:52- I would like to think they would stay in Wales.- Thank you.
0:18:52 > 0:18:54How about you?
0:18:56 > 0:18:59I had considered going to university in Wales anyway.
0:18:59 > 0:19:03I don't think there is enough money for my family
0:19:03 > 0:19:06to be able to afford to let me go to England.
0:19:06 > 0:19:09So I would have to stay in Wales.
0:19:09 > 0:19:12I think support is needed.
0:19:12 > 0:19:14How about you here?
0:19:14 > 0:19:18In my experience, I went to university in Wales
0:19:18 > 0:19:21and a lot of my friends went to England.
0:19:21 > 0:19:26If they get a grant, maybe we should have the condition
0:19:26 > 0:19:30they should have to come back to Wales or pay the money back.
0:19:30 > 0:19:34We need to bring them back to Wales, otherwise people will
0:19:34 > 0:19:40stay in England and help the English economy instead of the Welsh one.
0:19:42 > 0:19:46Is that fair to force people to come back to Wales?
0:19:46 > 0:19:48That's almost blackmail.
0:19:48 > 0:19:51We have to think of that, we have to be clever
0:19:51 > 0:19:53and we have to find people.
0:19:56 > 0:19:59One of my daughters is in and English college
0:19:59 > 0:20:02because she couldn't find a similar course in Wales.
0:20:02 > 0:20:04We need courses in Wales
0:20:04 > 0:20:08and universities should start thinking about the needs in Wales.
0:20:08 > 0:20:10The classic case is medicine.
0:20:10 > 0:20:15At the moment, there is a course in Cardiff but Welsh people can't
0:20:15 > 0:20:16get places on that course.
0:20:16 > 0:20:19So people from Wales, especially from North Wales
0:20:19 > 0:20:22are going to England and studying in Liverpool and Manchester
0:20:22 > 0:20:24and getting jobs there and staying there
0:20:24 > 0:20:29and we haven't got doctors here. So we need to be planning better.
0:20:29 > 0:20:32- What's the answer in that case? - Another medicine school in Wales.
0:20:32 > 0:20:34Dafydd Elis Thomas, where do you stand on this?
0:20:34 > 0:20:37I've mixed feelings.
0:20:37 > 0:20:40I have a responsibility, as you can tell from the tie,
0:20:40 > 0:20:45to Bangor University and it's important that we continue
0:20:45 > 0:20:50to attract students from abroad and from outside the European Union
0:20:50 > 0:20:53who will pay enormous fees.
0:20:53 > 0:20:56But there's inconsistency in this.
0:20:56 > 0:20:59We are prejudiced against English students
0:20:59 > 0:21:03but can't be prejudiced against ones from the European Union.
0:21:03 > 0:21:08So obviously this policy cannot be sustained
0:21:08 > 0:21:12beyond the next five or ten years.
0:21:12 > 0:21:17That's why the Welsh First Minister announced that a review
0:21:17 > 0:21:19has to happen.
0:21:19 > 0:21:23He has been very clever in saying that this will not be published
0:21:23 > 0:21:26until after the next Assembly election.
0:21:26 > 0:21:31But you can't give support like that to English universities
0:21:31 > 0:21:33when there's such a need in Wales.
0:21:33 > 0:21:37You have a clash here between the open market,
0:21:37 > 0:21:40and I agree with what Elin said about the importance of
0:21:40 > 0:21:44the higher education sector for the Welsh economy.
0:21:47 > 0:21:51The situation is that you have emigration happening
0:21:51 > 0:21:54in higher education
0:21:54 > 0:21:59and you have a situation in the long-term
0:21:59 > 0:22:02where it's unsustainable.
0:22:04 > 0:22:06We will have to face that.
0:22:06 > 0:22:08Thank you. We'll leave it there.
0:22:08 > 0:22:11Join us again after the break.
0:22:11 > 0:22:14We'll be discussing wind turbines.
0:22:32 > 0:22:34Welcome back.
0:22:34 > 0:22:37You are watching the last programme of the series.
0:22:37 > 0:22:39Tonight we're in Pwllheli.
0:22:39 > 0:22:42Let's get our next question asked by Alun Jones Williams.
0:22:42 > 0:22:44What is your question?
0:22:44 > 0:22:49Should more windmills be erected in Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty?
0:22:49 > 0:22:52Alun is a pupil at Ysgol Glan Mor.
0:22:52 > 0:22:56Should more windmills be erected in Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty?
0:22:56 > 0:23:01Let's start with someone who lives on the other side of Wales.
0:23:01 > 0:23:03Rhodri Williams?
0:23:03 > 0:23:07One thing is certain, we need to produce more energy
0:23:07 > 0:23:12and more of it needs to come from sustainable sources.
0:23:12 > 0:23:14That has to be done.
0:23:14 > 0:23:17At this rate, we will have problems.
0:23:17 > 0:23:19We have to produce more.
0:23:19 > 0:23:23I don't have a problem with regards to windmills.
0:23:23 > 0:23:27I passed them as I drove up here today in Powys
0:23:27 > 0:23:30and they don't bother me.
0:23:30 > 0:23:35I wouldn't say it was an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty.
0:23:35 > 0:23:39Where? Powys?
0:23:39 > 0:23:42No. The particular place where I saw the windmills.
0:23:44 > 0:23:47Would you want one of those where you live?
0:23:47 > 0:23:50I wouldn't have a problem with that.
0:23:50 > 0:23:52We have to produce more energy
0:23:52 > 0:23:56and windmills are certainly a good way of doing that.
0:23:56 > 0:24:02But I have doubts about whether windmills can produce enough energy.
0:24:02 > 0:24:07I have reason to believe that the contribution that they can make
0:24:07 > 0:24:11is much smaller and that's why we have to have nuclear energy
0:24:11 > 0:24:15as part of the provision.
0:24:15 > 0:24:19I also think we need to make better use of the sea.
0:24:19 > 0:24:23There are some interesting proposals being put forward at the moment
0:24:23 > 0:24:28such as a barrage in Swansea Bay and perhaps a Severn barrage.
0:24:28 > 0:24:31So you wouldn't mind seeing dozens of them
0:24:31 > 0:24:33in around the Lleyn Peninsula hills?
0:24:33 > 0:24:38No. You are not going to put them everywhere.
0:24:38 > 0:24:40You don't have to put them everywhere.
0:24:40 > 0:24:42There are better places for them
0:24:42 > 0:24:45and there are some places where they wouldn't be suitable.
0:24:45 > 0:24:50- I think you have to use common sense about where you put them.- Llyr?
0:24:50 > 0:24:53I was travelling up through Powys as well today
0:24:53 > 0:24:56and it's a beautiful area.
0:24:56 > 0:24:59But I thought that some of them
0:24:59 > 0:25:01actually added to the landscape.
0:25:01 > 0:25:05A few of them can be quite beautiful
0:25:05 > 0:25:08and I know people won't like me saying that.
0:25:08 > 0:25:12The problem is, when we have these enormous farms,
0:25:12 > 0:25:15some of the turbines are exceptionally big.
0:25:15 > 0:25:21Some of these turbines and pylons are enormous.
0:25:21 > 0:25:26I would like to see a movement towards microproduction
0:25:26 > 0:25:29so we see a village with its own pylon
0:25:29 > 0:25:33and that the village benefited from the windmill.
0:25:33 > 0:25:36My father always mentioned Dinas Mawddwy
0:25:36 > 0:25:39which was the first place to get electricity
0:25:39 > 0:25:42because they had a water mill.
0:25:42 > 0:25:45I would like to see villages having investment
0:25:45 > 0:25:48in that kind on a microlevel.
0:25:48 > 0:25:52Also we need to cut down on our energy use.
0:25:52 > 0:25:56We waste a lot.
0:25:56 > 0:25:58Let's hear from the audience?
0:25:58 > 0:26:00You asked the question.
0:26:00 > 0:26:03I think windmills are important in this area.
0:26:03 > 0:26:07If we want to preserve the views that we have here,
0:26:07 > 0:26:12we need more renewable energy because unrenewable energy releases
0:26:12 > 0:26:16carbon dioxide and causes climate change.
0:26:16 > 0:26:18It's important to keep the ecosystems
0:26:18 > 0:26:21that we have in this area.
0:26:21 > 0:26:25- So you don't think they destroy the view?- No.
0:26:25 > 0:26:28If we want to keep the scenery,
0:26:28 > 0:26:31I think we need to keep things close to nature.
0:26:31 > 0:26:33And one row back.
0:26:33 > 0:26:36Ysgol Botwnnog, am I right?
0:26:36 > 0:26:40Yes. I understand the arguments that we need to create
0:26:40 > 0:26:43more renewable energy, but what's the problem with putting
0:26:43 > 0:26:46these turbines out in the sea where they can't be seen,
0:26:46 > 0:26:50then everybody's happy and plenty of renewable energy is produced?
0:26:50 > 0:26:55And there are those that believe they are a blight on the landscape
0:26:55 > 0:26:57and they'll be satisfied.
0:26:57 > 0:27:00So you don't want them in the Lleyn Peninsula?
0:27:00 > 0:27:03Let's get the microphone to you.
0:27:03 > 0:27:06We should use the water more in the Lleyn Peninsula.
0:27:06 > 0:27:10We've seen enough water in North Wales over the last few months
0:27:10 > 0:27:14and we should also the tide as it comes in every day.
0:27:14 > 0:27:19I think things like that should be considered more than windmills.
0:27:21 > 0:27:25I would like to invite local people to our small group
0:27:25 > 0:27:28that's called Ynni Llyn.
0:27:28 > 0:27:31We meet in Botwnnog every month.
0:27:31 > 0:27:33We are on Facebook and Twitter
0:27:33 > 0:27:39and it's good to see young people starting to take an interest.
0:27:39 > 0:27:41What's your viewpoint?
0:27:41 > 0:27:43I want more people to come and work with us
0:27:43 > 0:27:46and to understand what the problems are.
0:27:46 > 0:27:49We have a long-term, short-term and mid-term strategy
0:27:49 > 0:27:54that includes wind turbines in the sea.
0:27:54 > 0:27:56And on the land?
0:27:56 > 0:27:59And possibly on land.
0:27:59 > 0:28:04But what we want above all is to get people to work practically
0:28:04 > 0:28:09to save energy, and then what you call a Community PEV
0:28:09 > 0:28:13- in the mid-term, and then in the end...- Thank you.
0:28:13 > 0:28:15And you?
0:28:15 > 0:28:19There is a classic example of not in my backyard.
0:28:19 > 0:28:22People are saying they're green, they're great.
0:28:22 > 0:28:27If you plant them in the Lleyn Peninsula nobody wants them.
0:28:27 > 0:28:31Is that your experience?
0:28:31 > 0:28:33I don't mind them myself.
0:28:33 > 0:28:34I think we have to have them.
0:28:34 > 0:28:36I have to agree with Llyr.
0:28:36 > 0:28:40There is an advantage in getting communities companies,
0:28:40 > 0:28:45but if they come to Eifionydd it has to profit local people,
0:28:45 > 0:28:50not foreigners or people from the border.
0:28:50 > 0:28:54We need to ensure that it supports the Welsh language
0:28:54 > 0:29:00and is sustainable and we have to prioritise our own interests.
0:29:04 > 0:29:06I think the impetus is wrong.
0:29:06 > 0:29:09It's fine if it's a community project.
0:29:09 > 0:29:12A local village is going to make £100,000 a year.
0:29:12 > 0:29:14The impetus at the moment is the subsidy.
0:29:14 > 0:29:16If you remove that...
0:29:16 > 0:29:20So what happens? A few of individuals might benefit?
0:29:20 > 0:29:24How many English companies would come in and do that?
0:29:24 > 0:29:26Where were you?
0:29:26 > 0:29:28Thank you.
0:29:28 > 0:29:30The most important thing to consider
0:29:30 > 0:29:34is planning for windmills.
0:29:35 > 0:29:41At the moment, planning laws aren't stringent enough.
0:29:43 > 0:29:46People can put them up anywhere and we need definite regulation.
0:29:46 > 0:29:50Someone on the panel said they are much too big.
0:29:50 > 0:29:52They need to be smaller.
0:29:52 > 0:29:56We need tough regulation about where they can be erected.
0:29:56 > 0:29:58And one over.
0:29:58 > 0:30:02I can't see the importance of the scenery.
0:30:02 > 0:30:04What's the point of it?
0:30:04 > 0:30:07You just look at it.
0:30:07 > 0:30:10But they attract thousands of visitors to the area?
0:30:10 > 0:30:14But a windmill isn't going to stop people from visiting.
0:30:14 > 0:30:17Yes, what do you think?
0:30:17 > 0:30:20They look nicer than the other electrical things.
0:30:20 > 0:30:22I agree with Llyr and Ifan.
0:30:22 > 0:30:26Yes, you over there. Let's get the microphone to the middle.
0:30:26 > 0:30:31I'm very concerned that we are going to be swamped by these windmills.
0:30:31 > 0:30:33As someone who is a local person,
0:30:33 > 0:30:36we are here to protect the Anau
0:30:36 > 0:30:42and we only have tourism and agriculture bringing in money.
0:30:42 > 0:30:47Going back to the rain and water we've had...
0:30:47 > 0:30:51But this young man said it won't stop people coming here.
0:30:51 > 0:30:54They will, definitely.
0:30:54 > 0:30:59There's no point having the hills if we are going to whitewash anywhere
0:30:59 > 0:31:03with these metal monsters everywhere. We need to be careful.
0:31:06 > 0:31:09I understand the concerns but I don't think
0:31:09 > 0:31:15a blot on the landscape is a strong enough argument
0:31:15 > 0:31:18to stop windmills.
0:31:18 > 0:31:20That's not a strong enough argument?
0:31:20 > 0:31:23To stop us erecting the windmills.
0:31:23 > 0:31:27In future, they are going to provide more renewable energy
0:31:27 > 0:31:32and if they don't go hand in hand with tourism which in the end,
0:31:32 > 0:31:37in moderation, they are good.
0:31:37 > 0:31:40You all want to contribute on this.
0:31:40 > 0:31:43We should take advantage of the landscape what we have
0:31:43 > 0:31:45and we can put them in the Lleyn Peninsula
0:31:45 > 0:31:48without putting them everywhere.
0:31:48 > 0:31:51So you wouldn't mind? Another contribution here.
0:31:53 > 0:31:55I can't understand with today's technology
0:31:55 > 0:31:58why we can't use more hydro, more water.
0:31:58 > 0:32:02We are not looking at that often enough.
0:32:02 > 0:32:04That has been a constant cry.
0:32:04 > 0:32:06Dafydd Elis Thomas?
0:32:06 > 0:32:11Natural Resources Wales has just published a clear policy
0:32:11 > 0:32:16with regards to hydro and how much water you can take out of rivers.
0:32:16 > 0:32:20This is complex because of the Welsh landscape
0:32:20 > 0:32:23and the water here.
0:32:23 > 0:32:27Obviously, hydro needs to be considered.
0:32:27 > 0:32:30There's also room for the sea to be used.
0:32:30 > 0:32:36This month, or quite soon, a Welsh company on Ramsey Island, Eco2,
0:32:36 > 0:32:41off the coast of Pembrokeshire was going to start up.
0:32:41 > 0:32:44But let's go back to the windmills in this area.
0:32:44 > 0:32:49As far as I know, the applications for turbines
0:32:49 > 0:32:54are made by individuals who are landowners or community groups
0:32:54 > 0:32:57in order to promote their own business.
0:32:57 > 0:33:02I know of a number of farms where the cost of producing
0:33:02 > 0:33:07and their running costs have been reduced substantially.
0:33:08 > 0:33:11The problem in a lot of areas, in Welsh rural areas,
0:33:11 > 0:33:15is that the distribution grid isn't strong enough
0:33:15 > 0:33:19to be able to take the electricity to be produced.
0:33:19 > 0:33:23I have three or four examples and Dinas Mawddwy is one of them,
0:33:23 > 0:33:28where there is a lot of enthusiasm from people who want to start
0:33:28 > 0:33:30renewable energy projects,
0:33:30 > 0:33:36but in that case, Scottish Energy, can't take the electricity.
0:33:36 > 0:33:39You don't think they are ugly?
0:33:39 > 0:33:43You aren't worried this can hit the tourist industry?
0:33:43 > 0:33:47I was brought up in one of the most beautiful places
0:33:47 > 0:33:49in the world, the Conwy Valley.
0:33:49 > 0:33:53That's where the first pylons were erected
0:33:53 > 0:33:56and that's where R Williams Parry wrote a sonnet to the pylon.
0:33:56 > 0:33:59Don't sentimentalise it.
0:34:01 > 0:34:05- I don't think they are ugly. - The panel's in agreement!
0:34:05 > 0:34:09In fact, I think they are quite attractive.
0:34:09 > 0:34:12Sometimes I look at them and I think, that's producing wealth
0:34:12 > 0:34:17in this area and I like to see that and it makes me feel good.
0:34:17 > 0:34:22If somebody can imagine situations where they are all over,
0:34:22 > 0:34:27then the same things can look ugly.
0:34:27 > 0:34:31If there's a lot of them they look ugly and we also know
0:34:31 > 0:34:36that decision wasn't made on a local or even a Welsh level.
0:34:43 > 0:34:46- Quickly.- That is going to change.
0:34:46 > 0:34:51Recommendations have been made that we have the right in Wales
0:34:51 > 0:34:53to decide on planning regulation.
0:34:53 > 0:34:55Under the Silk Commission.
0:34:55 > 0:34:59Perhaps that's what we'll be talking about next after the break.
0:35:16 > 0:35:21Welcome back. You're watching Pawb a'i Farn that's coming from Pwllheli.
0:35:21 > 0:35:24Our next question is from Mike Parry.
0:35:24 > 0:35:27What's your question?
0:35:29 > 0:35:32Considering what the Welsh Government has done
0:35:32 > 0:35:35in the education and health sectors,
0:35:35 > 0:35:39should it be given further powers?
0:35:39 > 0:35:43Mike referring back to the Silk Commission announcement.
0:35:43 > 0:35:46Considering what the Welsh Government has done
0:35:46 > 0:35:48in the education and health sectors,
0:35:48 > 0:35:50should it be given further powers?
0:35:50 > 0:35:54Mike, perhaps I can turn to you first.
0:35:54 > 0:35:56What's the complaint? What's the problem?
0:35:59 > 0:36:02The problem here is, on a daily basis, especially today,
0:36:02 > 0:36:06education and health has been in the media.
0:36:06 > 0:36:09It's not a new thing, it's been going on for years,
0:36:09 > 0:36:12especially in terms of health.
0:36:12 > 0:36:15We have has several local campaigns because of this.
0:36:15 > 0:36:19I understand that Cardiff Bay is still in an apprenticeship...
0:36:19 > 0:36:24A 15 year apprenticeship?
0:36:24 > 0:36:28Health nor education is working.
0:36:28 > 0:36:34If you go for a job, you wouldn't want health or education on your CV.
0:36:36 > 0:36:40We'll came back to you later, Mike. Llyr, what do you think?
0:36:40 > 0:36:44I think we are confusing the Government with the Assembly,
0:36:44 > 0:36:47or the Senedd as an institution.
0:36:47 > 0:36:50But where the people here are in the question
0:36:50 > 0:36:52the results are the same.
0:36:52 > 0:36:56I don't agree with everything the Government have done
0:36:56 > 0:37:00in health and education over the years or decades,
0:37:00 > 0:37:03but I do support the fact that everything goes through our own
0:37:03 > 0:37:09Welsh Assembly, even if they do make mistakes.
0:37:09 > 0:37:15Remember, the English Government's made mistakes at the same time.
0:37:15 > 0:37:18But I do support them.
0:37:18 > 0:37:22But in education, things are better in England than in Wales.
0:37:22 > 0:37:27We are putting too much emphasis on these PISA statistics.
0:37:27 > 0:37:31A lot of great things have happened in education in Wales.
0:37:31 > 0:37:34We have great teachers, we're getting rid of some tests.
0:37:34 > 0:37:37The Welsh college, a lot of great things have been done
0:37:37 > 0:37:42by the Welsh Government in education and I support our Assembly
0:37:42 > 0:37:46being given more powers.
0:37:46 > 0:37:49But if they haven't done so well in some fields
0:37:49 > 0:37:51why give them more powers?
0:37:51 > 0:37:54If you're not happy with the way the government has performed
0:37:54 > 0:37:57change the government, don't blame the Assembly as an institution.
0:38:03 > 0:38:08I would agree completely with what he just said.
0:38:08 > 0:38:10Whatever the problems,
0:38:10 > 0:38:14and especially where health is concerned,
0:38:14 > 0:38:18I think there are so many problems in parts of England,
0:38:18 > 0:38:21we haven't had the problems seen in...
0:38:21 > 0:38:24But you can see what Mike is talking about?
0:38:24 > 0:38:28You've both said there are problems and the record is not good.
0:38:28 > 0:38:33It's not the constitutional record.
0:38:33 > 0:38:35But it's happened since devolution.
0:38:35 > 0:38:38It's been 15 years since then.
0:38:38 > 0:38:43The process where Dafydd and 59 other elected members
0:38:43 > 0:38:48of the Assembly should hold the government to account
0:38:48 > 0:38:52for what they are doing.
0:38:52 > 0:38:56It's much better than what we had before that
0:38:56 > 0:38:59where we had two people, in my experience,
0:38:59 > 0:39:02a secretary of state and one minister
0:39:02 > 0:39:04and everything was decided by them.
0:39:04 > 0:39:08Things weren't transparent, there was no accountability
0:39:08 > 0:39:10and I think...
0:39:10 > 0:39:14As Llyr was saying about the PISA results, before that
0:39:14 > 0:39:17the statistics suggested that we had a better record in education.
0:39:17 > 0:39:19It's gone downhill since then,
0:39:19 > 0:39:23so it's no wonder people like Mike Parry can't see a difference.
0:39:23 > 0:39:26But that's not because of the constitution
0:39:26 > 0:39:31and I don't accept that everything is getting worse.
0:39:31 > 0:39:35I think the Health Service in Wales is performing better
0:39:35 > 0:39:38than some people think.
0:39:38 > 0:39:41I think there's too much pressure on it
0:39:41 > 0:39:44and people expect more from it.
0:39:44 > 0:39:48I think we are all guilty of having higher expectations
0:39:48 > 0:39:51but we are not happy to pay so much money.
0:39:51 > 0:39:56Also in Wales, in particular, we have higher levels of some
0:39:56 > 0:39:59kind of illnesses, some are historical
0:39:59 > 0:40:02but some such as obesity, created by ourselves.
0:40:05 > 0:40:08I think education and health are improving
0:40:08 > 0:40:11and are changing in different ways.
0:40:11 > 0:40:15To start with, we have Estyn that makes sure
0:40:15 > 0:40:17we improve standards in education.
0:40:17 > 0:40:22And in health the new social services bill which is on its third
0:40:22 > 0:40:27reading of the Assembly, has shown that health care and welfare
0:40:27 > 0:40:31coordinate better with the third sector.
0:40:31 > 0:40:33More powers?
0:40:33 > 0:40:36We need to have more powers for the Assembly to do that.
0:40:36 > 0:40:39But I do have my concerns.
0:40:39 > 0:40:41More powers?
0:40:41 > 0:40:44One thing that worries me with regards to health
0:40:44 > 0:40:48is, looking at Betsi, is it too big?
0:40:48 > 0:40:53Are there lessons to be learned from studying the Williams Report?
0:40:53 > 0:41:00The bigger things get, the less answerable they are to people.
0:41:00 > 0:41:04Gareth Jones, come in on this please. Do they deserve more powers?
0:41:05 > 0:41:09I don't think so. You have to remember it's the British Government
0:41:09 > 0:41:11not the English Government.
0:41:11 > 0:41:14We did quite well before this Assembly with a British Government
0:41:14 > 0:41:17and a suitable secretary of state.
0:41:18 > 0:41:22These are just stalling things instead of getting on with things.
0:41:22 > 0:41:25I think it's a matter of administration.
0:41:25 > 0:41:29That's where the problems lie.
0:41:29 > 0:41:31Now, the former Presiding Officer
0:41:31 > 0:41:34and the local Assembly Member. How do you answer this question?
0:41:34 > 0:41:36I take it you want more powers?
0:41:36 > 0:41:39That's what we've always wanted.
0:41:39 > 0:41:43Can you justify getting more powers?
0:41:43 > 0:41:48What's important about this is that the model of how powers
0:41:48 > 0:41:51are granted is going to change.
0:41:51 > 0:41:55The same as Scotland and Northern Ireland.
0:41:55 > 0:41:59When powers are defined according to what we are able to do,
0:41:59 > 0:42:03as opposed to what we are trying to do.
0:42:03 > 0:42:05That's how it used to be.
0:42:05 > 0:42:07Don't forget the mess we had initially
0:42:07 > 0:42:10when there was no difference between the Assembly and the Government.
0:42:10 > 0:42:12That's all changed now.
0:42:12 > 0:42:17The most important powers we should have quickly, I hope,
0:42:17 > 0:42:20and hopefully within a few months is powers with regards to transport.
0:42:20 > 0:42:25We need better trains and buses and better cooperation between them,
0:42:25 > 0:42:28and God knows we all want it.
0:42:28 > 0:42:31The people who have bus passes and everyone else,
0:42:31 > 0:42:34we all want to see this happening.
0:42:34 > 0:42:36That's the best example I can give.
0:42:36 > 0:42:39Will your electorate in North Wales be better off
0:42:39 > 0:42:42if the Assembly has more powers?
0:42:42 > 0:42:45Yes, when it comes to transport especially.
0:42:45 > 0:42:48That's the only case you can mention?
0:42:48 > 0:42:51No, I'm only using that example.
0:42:51 > 0:42:53I can think of others.
0:42:53 > 0:42:54Let's mention S4C, that's another.
0:42:54 > 0:42:58There was a meeting in Caernarfon tonight with Hywel Williams
0:42:58 > 0:43:03and Alun Ffred Jones with moving the neo-natal unit
0:43:03 > 0:43:07from Glan Clwyd to a hospital on the Wirral.
0:43:07 > 0:43:13I've personally... Well, not just me, a group of us
0:43:13 > 0:43:19collected money and we've just given a new machine to Ysbyty Gwynedd.
0:43:19 > 0:43:23But what do you think of these further powers?
0:43:23 > 0:43:28I think powers should be kept in Gwynedd or in Wales.
0:43:28 > 0:43:32Thank you. Elin, come in on this.
0:43:32 > 0:43:37A lot of pioneering things have come out of Wales.
0:43:37 > 0:43:41We've been ahead of England on other things.
0:43:41 > 0:43:45For instance, we were the first to get a Children's Commissioner.
0:43:45 > 0:43:47We were the first to get rid of exams
0:43:47 > 0:43:51and to introduce things in education.
0:43:51 > 0:43:55But hasn't getting rid of exams led to a drop in standards?
0:43:55 > 0:43:59Sometimes we are too ready to find be different from England
0:43:59 > 0:44:02just for the sake of it.
0:44:02 > 0:44:05We have to consider what kind of society we want to create,
0:44:05 > 0:44:10what kind of future we want for our children.
0:44:10 > 0:44:13We need to consider the values that are important.
0:44:13 > 0:44:15This is the chance we have now.
0:44:15 > 0:44:18We need to ensure that our children have the most important
0:44:18 > 0:44:20education possible.
0:44:20 > 0:44:24But the PISA results don't show us in a good light.
0:44:24 > 0:44:26The PISA statistics
0:44:26 > 0:44:32are problematic in the way we interpret them.
0:44:33 > 0:44:36Because we are doing badly?
0:44:36 > 0:44:39We are certainly not doing as well as we could be doing.
0:44:39 > 0:44:43We need more investment.
0:44:43 > 0:44:47I come from a county, Ceredigion,
0:44:47 > 0:44:52which has had a superb review, the best possible review.
0:44:52 > 0:44:58So a lot of good work is going on but we do have pockets of poverty
0:44:58 > 0:45:03and that's a very important factor as we consider the other things.
0:45:03 > 0:45:09I'm just going to have one final question in Pwllheli.
0:45:09 > 0:45:13That question is asked by Victor Jones.
0:45:13 > 0:45:15Where are you?
0:45:15 > 0:45:19Does the panel regret the fact there'll be cuts
0:45:19 > 0:45:23to the most popular programme on S4C, Pobol y Cwm?
0:45:23 > 0:45:27Thank you. Does the panel regret the fact there'll be cuts
0:45:27 > 0:45:31to the most popular programme on S4C, Pobol y Cwm?
0:45:31 > 0:45:35We'll find out if the audience is regretful too.
0:45:35 > 0:45:38Dafydd Elis-Thomas, do you watch this soap opera?
0:45:38 > 0:45:40No!
0:45:42 > 0:45:44- So S4C is right?- Yes.
0:45:46 > 0:45:49I don't watch it because it's on at the same time as something else.
0:45:49 > 0:45:51Channel 4 News.
0:45:51 > 0:45:55But what's happened with regards to S4C is that the Assembly
0:45:55 > 0:45:58is going to have responsibility for S4C at last.
0:45:58 > 0:46:02They'll receive £7 million.
0:46:02 > 0:46:05- But you are avoiding the question. - No, I'm not.
0:46:05 > 0:46:09We need to spend money on other digital platforms
0:46:09 > 0:46:13and I want legislative adaptability on promoting
0:46:13 > 0:46:16the Welsh language coming to Cardiff Bay.
0:46:16 > 0:46:19We should be able to influence broadcasting
0:46:19 > 0:46:22and all kinds of communication
0:46:22 > 0:46:25so we can use the new mediums properly.
0:46:25 > 0:46:31That's what matters, not some soap opera.
0:46:32 > 0:46:35Rhodri Williams, do you watch it?
0:46:35 > 0:46:37I occasionally watch it.
0:46:37 > 0:46:40He has to say that, he works for Ofcom.
0:46:40 > 0:46:43But I simply have no problems with the changes.
0:46:43 > 0:46:46The fact that S4C pay £2 million to have the episodes
0:46:46 > 0:46:50broadcast as an omnibus edition on Sunday at a time
0:46:50 > 0:46:54when you can watch them all On Demand is ridiculous.
0:46:54 > 0:46:56But they'll lose the Friday night episode too.
0:46:56 > 0:47:02That £2 million needs to be spent perhaps...
0:47:02 > 0:47:06I'd prefer to see more original drama.
0:47:06 > 0:47:10We saw Hinterland recently and I watched Teulu
0:47:10 > 0:47:14and I like Gwaith/Cartref, and I liked watching Alys.
0:47:14 > 0:47:17I think there should be more drama of that nature
0:47:17 > 0:47:23and if this helps finance more of that, then I applaud it.
0:47:23 > 0:47:25A few voices from the audience please.
0:47:25 > 0:47:27Where did I see those hands up?
0:47:28 > 0:47:30I think it's a shame.
0:47:30 > 0:47:34They've just moved out of Cardiff and invested there.
0:47:34 > 0:47:38By cutting one episode, I don't think they are taking
0:47:38 > 0:47:42full advantage of the investment.
0:47:42 > 0:47:44Thank you. And you.
0:47:46 > 0:47:50I think Pobol y Cwm is a bit...
0:47:52 > 0:47:54..is over the hill anyway.
0:47:56 > 0:47:58We'll leave it there! Victor.
0:48:00 > 0:48:03I don't particularly care but my wife is a fan.
0:48:03 > 0:48:05- She watches it?- Yes.
0:48:05 > 0:48:08Elin, how about it?
0:48:08 > 0:48:11Are they doing the right thing in cutting this?
0:48:11 > 0:48:15Every channel has its own soap opera,
0:48:15 > 0:48:20cutting a soap from five days to four days is a loss in a way
0:48:20 > 0:48:26because five days was such a great thing to have.
0:48:26 > 0:48:31But I would like to see much more original drama as well.
0:48:34 > 0:48:38This is the result when S4C have to operate
0:48:38 > 0:48:42with a 36% cut in their budget.
0:48:42 > 0:48:46The amount of money going into the channel and what comes out,
0:48:46 > 0:48:48there is a relationship there.
0:48:48 > 0:48:51But more money should be spent on nurturing new talent
0:48:51 > 0:48:54- and creating new things. - So, a good decision?
0:48:54 > 0:48:57You're not allowed more. Yes or no?
0:48:57 > 0:48:59It has to be done as a result of cuts.
0:48:59 > 0:49:03- Llyr?- I prefer them taking a big step like this
0:49:03 > 0:49:09rather than salami slicing other services.
0:49:09 > 0:49:14I would like to see the money invested in the new media.
0:49:14 > 0:49:19Thank you everybody for coming, it's been great having you here.
0:49:19 > 0:49:22Thanks also to the panel.
0:49:22 > 0:49:25This is the final programme in this series.
0:49:25 > 0:49:28Our editor and producer is also leaving after 20 years.
0:49:28 > 0:49:31We'll be back in the autumn.
0:49:31 > 0:49:33For now, goodbye.