:00:11. > :00:15.With the Government and the church at loggerheads today, we will be
:00:15. > :00:25.finding out what our panel and our audience think - welcome to
:00:25. > :00:26.
:00:26. > :00:30.Question Time. On the panel here in Norwich, we have the International
:00:30. > :00:34.Development Secretary, Andrew Mitchell. Labour's former Home
:00:34. > :00:38.Secretary Charles Clarke. The Liberal Democrat MP Jo Swinson. The
:00:38. > :00:48.feminist writer Germaine Greer. And the Mail on Sunday columnist Peter
:00:48. > :00:58.
:00:58. > :01:01.How have never known a programme where we have had such an
:01:01. > :01:06.overwhelming number of questions on this single topic. This question
:01:07. > :01:09.comes from Rachael Gilbert. Were being committed to radical long-
:01:09. > :01:15.term policies for which no-one has voted - is Archbishop Rowan
:01:15. > :01:17.Williams correct? That was his quote - were being committed to
:01:17. > :01:23.radical long-term policies for which no-one has voted. Is the
:01:23. > :01:26.correct? I think he is right to speak out, but I don't think he is
:01:26. > :01:31.right in his analysis. I do not believe the Government has got
:01:31. > :01:37.fundamental, long-term, radical policies. In one sense, I wish it
:01:37. > :01:40.had. I think what he should be criticised for is incoherence and
:01:40. > :01:45.incompetence in a wide range of areas. We have seen it on
:01:45. > :01:49.sentencing reform, and on other issues. If I thought there was a
:01:49. > :01:54.coherent vision and strategy which was taking us on a disastrous path,
:01:54. > :02:00.in a sense, I would be more worried. But it is a really bad situation,
:02:00. > :02:05.in my opinion, when they have not thought through their proposals. I
:02:05. > :02:10.think the Archbishop's criticism is right, but the grounds I think are
:02:11. > :02:14.not correct. So he should have said something quite different?
:02:14. > :02:21.should have said the Government was incoherent, rather than saying it
:02:21. > :02:26.has a coherent long-term strategy, which I do not think it has. It is
:02:26. > :02:29.certainly true that nobody voted for this. A number of deluded
:02:29. > :02:33.people voted Conservative in the belief that they would get a
:02:33. > :02:36.Conservative government. And some more deluded people voted Liberal
:02:36. > :02:40.Democrat in the belief that they would get a left-wing government.
:02:40. > :02:45.And neither of them got what they wanted. The Liberal Democrats have
:02:45. > :02:53.dropped many of their pledges, and we know about those, particularly
:02:53. > :02:58.on universities and many other things as well. Why do you call
:02:58. > :03:01.them deluded? Because it was quite plain from the behaviour and
:03:01. > :03:05.speeches of David Cameron and his lieutenants that he was hoping, if
:03:05. > :03:11.he became elected, to govern the country as a liberal. He has been
:03:11. > :03:14.very happy indeed to have the support of the Liberal Democrats
:03:14. > :03:19.against what remains of his own right wing, to make sure that he
:03:19. > :03:22.can be soft on crime, and that he continues to spend very highly in
:03:22. > :03:27.certain areas of public spending, which are unpopular with his
:03:27. > :03:31.supporters, that he continues to lead the country be absorbed into
:03:31. > :03:36.the European Union. And that's to name just a few areas. He's very
:03:36. > :03:40.happy with this, he is not the prisoner of Nick Clegg. What about
:03:40. > :03:44.what the Archbishop said? puzzled as to why an archbishop
:03:44. > :03:49.should take this particular view, particularly when he speaks about
:03:49. > :03:54.the distinction between the deserving and the undeserving poor
:03:54. > :03:57.being revived. I think an awful lot of people who pay a lot of tax, and
:03:57. > :04:02.then see people living close to them living off that tax and not
:04:02. > :04:07.doing any work would like to see the distinction between the
:04:07. > :04:12.deserving and the undeserving poor revived. And I would point out that
:04:12. > :04:21.this distinction arises irrespective of religion. I do not
:04:21. > :04:23.see why this would be a Christian thing to say. I think he is
:04:23. > :04:27.absolutely right, but he's not alone. Millions of people are
:04:27. > :04:31.extremely angry about what this government is doing. They are
:04:31. > :04:36.forcing people to pay thousands of pounds for education, bringing in
:04:36. > :04:40.changes to the NHS, and competition, which was not in their manifesto.
:04:40. > :04:43.But we are angry and we are going to take action about this, because
:04:43. > :04:46.they cannot make ordinary people pay for this crisis, which was not
:04:47. > :04:50.of their making. That anger will be coming to fruition, thousands of
:04:50. > :05:00.people will be voting and taking action later this year against this
:05:00. > :05:01.
:05:01. > :05:06.government's policies. The man in the third row from the back...
:05:07. > :05:12.I ask why the panel think that such a big say should be given to a
:05:12. > :05:18.person supported by such a small minority in this country?
:05:19. > :05:23.Swinson... He is entitled to express his views, and I think very
:05:23. > :05:27.often he plays an important part in public life. But I think he's wrong
:05:27. > :05:32.when he says nobody voted for this. 10 million people voted
:05:32. > :05:35.Conservative, 7 million people voted Liberal Democrat. That is a
:05:35. > :05:42.high percentage of the population, more than we are used to. The
:05:42. > :05:47.previous Labour government governed with just 35% of the vote. It is a
:05:47. > :05:51.curious argument, when the archbishop is an outspoken critic
:05:51. > :05:56.of any kind of reform to the House of Lords, to bring democratic
:05:56. > :06:00.legitimacy into that place. But the one place where I think he is right
:06:00. > :06:04.to highlight is that people are very worried about the current
:06:04. > :06:07.situation. We have a situation where our economy has gone through
:06:07. > :06:12.a massive heart attack, where people are finding life very
:06:12. > :06:16.difficult, often having a pay freeze, concerned about job
:06:16. > :06:20.security and facing rising costs. We are in a very difficult
:06:20. > :06:25.recession, which we're trying to find our way out of, and growing
:06:25. > :06:31.the economy is very important. All of the decisions being taken to cut
:06:31. > :06:35.the deficit are being made with that recognition, and it is very
:06:35. > :06:40.close to my mind that these decisions are making life difficult,
:06:40. > :06:44.but there is no easy alternative. We must bear that in mind. The
:06:44. > :06:48.alternative, having a ballooning deficit and much higher debt
:06:48. > :06:54.repayments, are not a price that I want future generations to have to
:06:54. > :07:00.pay. The archbishop said your government
:07:00. > :07:04.does not know how afraid people are, and the anxiety and anger are to do
:07:04. > :07:09.with the feeling that they're not having proper public argument about
:07:09. > :07:15.the decisions which are being imposed on the country. Well, as I
:07:15. > :07:25.just said, I to understand the concerns that people have... But do
:07:25. > :07:25.
:07:25. > :07:29.you think he is right to say what he said? I think MPs are very aware
:07:29. > :07:34.of these difficult decisions. I don't think anybody is taking these
:07:34. > :07:36.decisions with any relish. But it is absolutely vital that we get the
:07:36. > :07:44.economy back on track, and you cannot do that with the deficit
:07:44. > :07:47.that we have had. Just to repeat the question - were being committed
:07:47. > :07:52.to radical long-term policies for which no-one has voted... Under
:07:52. > :07:57.Labour, there was no social justice. I have got Asperger's syndrome, I
:07:57. > :08:04.was kicked out of three schools, and my local MP said, I don't care.
:08:04. > :08:10.In 2005, that's when the Conservatives took over the local
:08:10. > :08:14.council, and it was then that something was done. You say you're
:08:14. > :08:22.there for the working class - no, you're not, you're there to line
:08:22. > :08:26.your own pockets. In answer to Peter Hitchens, it is ludicrous to
:08:26. > :08:29.describe in any way as Liberal a Prime Minister under which the most
:08:29. > :08:32.vulnerable are under attack, and the people who have done best in
:08:32. > :08:37.the last year, the people the Government at the top of the income
:08:37. > :08:40.bracket, are not so badly affected. In answer to Jo Swinson, those of
:08:40. > :08:48.us who voted Liberal Democrat do not feel we got what we voted for,
:08:48. > :08:50.because we can hardly notice that you're there. Andrew Mitchell,
:08:50. > :08:56.you're the most senior representative of the government
:08:56. > :09:00.which came under attack from the Archbishop - what do you make of
:09:00. > :09:05.it? He is entitled to his view. I do not agree with him. He was not
:09:05. > :09:11.very nice about the Labour Party, either. But on the two substantive
:09:11. > :09:15.points, first of all, no-one voted for this coalition government...
:09:15. > :09:19.This is actually the first government since 1935 which has got
:09:19. > :09:24.more than 50% of the popular vote behind it, so I think he is wrong
:09:24. > :09:27.on that point. In addition, if he says coalitions are not democratic,
:09:27. > :09:32.and effectively he is disowning most of the governments across
:09:32. > :09:36.Europe. Hang on, he said we are being committed to long-term
:09:36. > :09:39.policies for which no-one voted. He didn't say nobody voted
:09:39. > :09:46.Conservative and nobody voted Liberal. He's talking about the
:09:46. > :09:50.agreement which the two parties made after the election. As we know,
:09:50. > :10:00.Jo Swinson said there would never be tuition fees in University...
:10:00. > :10:02.
:10:02. > :10:07.That surely is what he was referring to? And they had said no
:10:07. > :10:10.top-down reform of the NHS. point is that these are the
:10:10. > :10:13.policies of a coalition government which has come together in the
:10:13. > :10:19.national interest, burying party political differences to try to
:10:19. > :10:25.sort out the dreadful economic mess. But by definition, nobody can vote
:10:25. > :10:29.for coalition policies. That's true, but the two parties in this
:10:29. > :10:38.coalition, for the first time since 1935, have more than half the
:10:38. > :10:41.popular vote. That's a point which he Mrs in his comments. We are
:10:41. > :10:45.taking this action not because we want to take it but because we have
:10:45. > :10:49.got to take it to protect living standards across the country from
:10:49. > :10:52.the dreadful effects of the inheritance we had from Labour, and
:10:52. > :11:01.the attack on living standards that would result if we did not get the
:11:01. > :11:07.deficit down. But you keep going on about these thugs that you got -
:11:07. > :11:12.when you didn't get them by saying what you were going to do. -- these
:11:12. > :11:22.votes. Both of these parties got their votes by pretending they were
:11:22. > :11:23.
:11:23. > :11:30.going to do things. This is a false prospectus, you cannot get away
:11:30. > :11:33.with it in business. That's not true at all. Everybody is forever
:11:33. > :11:38.nagging that government, do not carry out what was in their
:11:38. > :11:44.manifesto. In this case, it is even more interesting, because one of
:11:44. > :11:47.the things that happened under presidential-style New Labour is
:11:47. > :11:52.that parliamentary government was weakened in a great many ways, the
:11:52. > :11:56.power of Cabinet was suddenly sidelined, we began to have rule by
:11:56. > :11:59.fear, which was invented by Margaret Thatcher, who taught her
:11:59. > :12:03.policies to win but Murdoch -- who told her policies to Rupert Murdoch
:12:03. > :12:07.before she told them to anyone else. When you have a system like that,
:12:07. > :12:12.issues are not argued on their merits. We end up with government
:12:13. > :12:17.by fear. In this case, what has happened, to somebody who is a
:12:17. > :12:20.European, is profoundly exciting and interesting. The Tories now
:12:20. > :12:24.have to argue their case in front of the Lib Dems. They will arrive
:12:24. > :12:27.at a compromise. This is the way government goes in this country
:12:27. > :12:33.historically anyway. It is one reason why we are still saying.
:12:33. > :12:36.Interestingly, whatever government we have now would still be under
:12:36. > :12:45.pressure from the universities, after years of underfunding, to
:12:45. > :12:55.raise fees. Where are you on the Archbishop? Well, it is nothing to
:12:55. > :12:56.
:12:56. > :13:06.do with me, I'm a Catholic. Let's just hear from some more members of
:13:06. > :13:06.
:13:06. > :13:09.the audience. I'm a high-school governor, and the changes in
:13:10. > :13:13.education have been insane. The English Baccalaureate, it is one of
:13:13. > :13:18.the most dumb things I have ever heard. It is so depressing. We have
:13:18. > :13:22.a real diverse range of students in our school. That's just one example,
:13:22. > :13:27.one of the crazy things which are just not necessary to try to save
:13:27. > :13:31.on the deficit, it is just insane. I think he had a right to say
:13:31. > :13:35.something, because he is a citizen of this country. I think a lot of
:13:35. > :13:40.people feel like they have been silenced, and the good thing about
:13:40. > :13:43.him saying what he did today, I think it will have opened up the
:13:43. > :13:48.debate. There is a time when people say enough is enough, and I think
:13:48. > :13:52.that time has come. Now is the time to look at the working class, at
:13:52. > :14:01.everybody, to try to make sure that even if we have to have cuts, we
:14:01. > :14:06.make sure they are fair and equitable. Andrew Mitchell, he
:14:06. > :14:10.complained of what he called the seductive language of deserving and
:14:11. > :14:13.undeserving poor, in other words, that you were starting to make a
:14:13. > :14:19.distinction between people who needed welfare and people who did
:14:19. > :14:22.not need to be on welfare. Is that a fair criticism? No, it is not. I
:14:22. > :14:27.think if you look at the reforms which Iain Duncan Smith is trying
:14:27. > :14:32.to carry out, to try to make sure that work pays, that people get
:14:32. > :14:35.back into the world of work, these are very important reforms which
:14:35. > :14:39.are long overdue. And I think the Government deserves credit for
:14:39. > :14:48.grasping this nettle and tackling this issue, which for far too long
:14:48. > :14:51.has been ignored by politicians. don't think it is fair to say that
:14:51. > :14:54.politicians have been ignored. I think actually the Prime Minister's
:14:54. > :14:57.response to the Archbishop of Canterbury today has been extremely
:14:57. > :15:03.contradictory. It has been proven that the Government needs to listen,
:15:03. > :15:10.that's why the NHS reform was halted, to implement some listening
:15:10. > :15:13.exercises. And the concerns of the Archbishop of Canterbury should be
:15:13. > :15:23.listened to and should be explored. I think the response today has been
:15:23. > :15:23.
:15:23. > :15:29.far too quick, and I think it has I completely agree with what the
:15:29. > :15:33.lady has said and the what the lady said earlier. The coalition was
:15:33. > :15:36.entitled to form the Government. They had a majority of seats and it
:15:36. > :15:40.gave stability. I'm a Labour politician and I recognise Labour
:15:40. > :15:45.was defeated. Secondly, they're entitled to form the Government on
:15:45. > :15:49.the basis of a coalition agreement as to what they would do. That is
:15:49. > :15:53.fair too. What they were not entitled to do was to ignore the
:15:53. > :15:56.things they'd said prior to the election. The student fees is a
:15:56. > :16:00.good example and no topdown reform of the NHS is another. What they
:16:00. > :16:04.also had to do and failed to do, was to come up with cohere rent
:16:04. > :16:08.programmes for reform. The gentleman talking about the school
:16:08. > :16:13.curriculum is completely spot on correct. Schools up and down the
:16:13. > :16:16.country have been thrown into confusion as a result of the
:16:16. > :16:21.approach taken by the Government. Every health centre in Britain is
:16:21. > :16:28.in confusion because we don't know what is happening on NHS reform and
:16:28. > :16:33.that's why the Archbishop of Canterbury was right to talk about.
:16:33. > :16:40.The Government is no intoe heernt and has gone back on what both
:16:40. > :16:43.parties -- incoherent and has gone back on what both parties said.
:16:43. > :16:47.Surely the Archbishop of Canterbury has the right to actually speak for
:16:47. > :16:54.the hundreds of thousands of people who don't have that right, who
:16:54. > :16:57.don't have a voice, who are the deserving or undeserving poor?
:16:58. > :17:03.lady there. I agree for the most part with what Charles Clarke has
:17:03. > :17:07.said, but I think the coalition has got a coherent policy, but it seems
:17:07. > :17:11.to be furthering Conservative ideals basically halting social
:17:11. > :17:21.mobility by raising tuition fees and knee-capping the NHS with all
:17:21. > :17:23.
:17:23. > :17:27.the ridiculous reforms. Wouldn't it be more helpful if we used the
:17:27. > :17:32.money being used to bomb Libya at the moment and use that for the
:17:32. > :17:38.three million children who are living in poverty at the moment?
:17:39. > :17:43.Briefly, Jo. The gentleman makes a good point about children living in
:17:43. > :17:46.poverty and I'm sure people watched the documentary, Poor Kids and the
:17:46. > :17:50.truth is every party had welfare reform in the manifesto, because
:17:50. > :17:53.what that programme demonstrated so clearly was that getting people
:17:53. > :17:56.back into work is absolutely the best way to get children out of
:17:56. > :18:02.poverty. There hasn't been enough support and that's what we are
:18:02. > :18:12.absolutely determined to change. you are tweeting tonight, just a
:18:12. > :18:22.
:18:22. > :18:25.reminder the hash tag is bbcqt. Another question from Anne Beaumont.
:18:25. > :18:33.Does the Government have any teeth when it comes to the inappropriate
:18:33. > :18:37.sexualisation of children? There was a report about this week.
:18:38. > :18:45.Germaine Greer? If you think about this phenomenon you have to ask
:18:45. > :18:48.yourself where it really comes from. Who is it? When is it? When are the
:18:48. > :18:52.children sexualised? For years and years, 20 years, it's been
:18:52. > :18:59.impossible to buy clothes for little girls that didn't dress them
:18:59. > :19:04.as little tarts, that didn't have sequins on their jeans, that
:19:04. > :19:08.weren't Jordan pink or Katie Price pink. It became a strange thing
:19:08. > :19:15.that little girls screamed and yelled, they wanted these things.
:19:15. > :19:25.It became like a guerilla uniform for little girls saying I'm a
:19:25. > :19:26.
:19:26. > :19:30.girlie. -- girlie girl. I would entertain the possibility that they
:19:30. > :19:34.were reacting a particularly type of feminism which said you've got
:19:34. > :19:38.to be boyish and tough and not coy and so on. It was extremely
:19:38. > :19:44.depressing for an old feminist like me to watch this phenomenon. But it
:19:44. > :19:48.just grew and grew and the more mothers said I will not buy you
:19:48. > :19:53.your 25th Barbie doll, the more screaming and yelling there was
:19:53. > :19:58.until the 25th Barbie doll was got. There's always been this sinister
:19:58. > :20:02.culture that has gone along and it's always been sexual. The Barbie
:20:02. > :20:06.doll herself is a fettish and descended from a sex toy. Little
:20:06. > :20:11.girls learn to flirt with their fathers, kiss daddy good night and
:20:12. > :20:16.all this sort of business. You wonder whether what is happening in
:20:16. > :20:21.marketing is a response to this, or whether it's actually causing it.
:20:21. > :20:28.In fact, by now it's become biofeedback, one feeds the other.
:20:28. > :20:31.All you can pray for is that it will run out of steam and the kids
:20:31. > :20:35.will think it's so last year and naff and disgusting that they just
:20:35. > :20:42.won't do it any more. Government can't do anything about
:20:42. > :20:46.it? I tell you something, if the Government decides to censor what
:20:46. > :20:49.is available - cepbs sewer what is available and decide things are not
:20:49. > :20:59.for little girls they'll give them added value and make them nor
:20:59. > :21:03.
:21:03. > :21:07.glamorous. -- censure. Kids want desperately to grow up. We have to
:21:07. > :21:16.come up with something more substantial. We have to give them
:21:16. > :21:21.an idea of self-worth which goes beyond being concerned with your
:21:21. > :21:26.breasts and which allows you to have some fat on your thighs and
:21:27. > :21:30.allows you not to be a dreadful immitation of a Barbie doll. You
:21:30. > :21:33.don't like topdown with the Health Service and this is mental Health
:21:33. > :21:43.Service and it has to come spontaneously from the little
:21:43. > :21:45.
:21:45. > :21:53.people themselves. Peter Hitchens. Where does this sexualisation come
:21:53. > :22:02.from? Why is it that we now have this Babylon which even affects
:22:02. > :22:12.small children? Is it because we decide today change our moral
:22:12. > :22:17.
:22:17. > :22:20.climate. This is a job for the Archbishop of Canterbury. To become
:22:20. > :22:23.instead a post-lady chatterly society in which sex was like
:22:23. > :22:27.tennis and something you did and pleasure and there were no rules
:22:27. > :22:30.about it and everybody should talk about it all the time and it should
:22:30. > :22:34.be on the television the whole time and form the lyrics of all the
:22:34. > :22:39.songs that people listen to, which it is. Out of the radio it comes
:22:39. > :22:44.and television and the internet. They go to school and they get sex
:22:45. > :22:50.education, which is all about taking away their innocence. All
:22:50. > :22:54.these forces come bien so what else is the purpose of sex education --
:22:54. > :22:58.combine, so what else is the purpose of sex education? We are
:22:58. > :23:03.told it's supposed to stop underage pregnancy and sexually transmitted
:23:03. > :23:09.diseases. What happens? The more sex education we have, the more
:23:09. > :23:16.diseases and the more abortion and the more underage pregnancy we have.
:23:16. > :23:22.It's so. You are in favour of the sexualisation of children. Indeed
:23:22. > :23:29.you are, our culture is and so to stand here after 50 years of this
:23:29. > :23:33.and say oh, let's have a law of selling padded bras to children
:23:33. > :23:39.seems to be a futile gesture. newspapers play their part. I
:23:39. > :23:46.notice the Mail was described by Ofcom as showing iing Gantly more
:23:46. > :23:53.graphic and close-up material than -- showing significantly more
:23:53. > :23:58.graphic close-upmaterial than anyone else. That was Ofcom blaming
:23:58. > :24:08.someone else because they were in trouble letting something get
:24:08. > :24:09.
:24:09. > :24:15.through. The speaker of the house Commons -- the Speaker of the House
:24:15. > :24:18.of Commons described it as it being bigoted.
:24:18. > :24:24.APPLAUSE I should stress for one moment, but
:24:24. > :24:28.not to disown the paper, I work for the Mail on Sunday, I would be very
:24:29. > :24:32.happy to be described in such terms by the Speaker. I would take it as
:24:32. > :24:38.a compliment. The woman there. There were several problematic
:24:38. > :24:41.things about the report, one seemed to me the absolute absence of any
:24:41. > :24:47.research involving children. Bailey is the person who produced
:24:47. > :24:50.the report for the Mother's Union. The children were absent from this
:24:50. > :24:56.and I don't know who is talking to children and young people about
:24:56. > :25:01.their views about this. I think that this kind of moralising tone
:25:02. > :25:04.and creating the bogeyman, these people have responsibilities, but
:25:04. > :25:08.if we don't empower the young children to navigate the world then
:25:08. > :25:13.we are doing a massive disservice and we talk about the fact that
:25:13. > :25:17.Government only has so much it can do and I agree that it will make it
:25:17. > :25:23.more appealing, but the Government is involved in education and it's
:25:23. > :25:27.not consistent in this country or manned interest and does not cover
:25:27. > :25:30.key issues. We need it to cover pleasure and desire and gender and
:25:30. > :25:33.media literacy and equip people to better navigate the world, because
:25:33. > :25:43.people will not stop trying to sell them stuff.
:25:43. > :25:49.
:25:49. > :25:52.APPLAUSE This report had 14 recommendations.
:25:52. > :25:58.Andrew Mitchell, do you think the Government can do anything about
:25:58. > :26:04.this and can the recommendations be enforced? Well, I approach this
:26:04. > :26:09.issue as a parent of two girls, as well as a politician. I think that
:26:09. > :26:12.in tackling what is going on behind Anne's question, we should
:26:12. > :26:16.recognise that the par rent is the first line of defence. On a
:26:16. > :26:19.Saturday morning, when I took my two daughters to buy some magazines,
:26:19. > :26:23.I exercised a certain amount of censorship over what they could
:26:23. > :26:27.have and I was surprised at some of the stuff that was available to
:26:28. > :26:34.them. I think the parent is is the first line of defence. I think
:26:34. > :26:38.after that it is of course for companies and businesses to
:26:38. > :26:42.exercise self-restraint and self- regulation and in his report, reg
:26:42. > :26:46.Bailey recognises that and as the Prime Minister has said, if self-
:26:46. > :26:52.regulation doesn't work, in 18 months' time we'll return to this
:26:52. > :26:54.issue and consider legislation. right. Charles Clarke. In answer to
:26:54. > :26:59.the question, David, I don't think the Government has any teeth in
:26:59. > :27:03.relation to this and I think it's a serious mistake for the Prime
:27:03. > :27:07.Minister to do what Andrew described to imply it could come in
:27:07. > :27:13.with legislation in 18 months' time and as it were solve this problem.
:27:13. > :27:19.I don't think legislation is the means for doing it. I agreed with
:27:19. > :27:24.Germaine Greer's answer. It's for young people to have self-worth and
:27:24. > :27:31.confidence in what they do. The people who will help them gain that
:27:31. > :27:35.are their parents, in the way Andrew was talking about, the
:27:35. > :27:40.grandparents and friends and what society ought to be doing and
:27:40. > :27:44.perhaps this is an appropriate use of the word big society, is to try
:27:44. > :27:49.to encourage children to have self- worth and diminish the impact of
:27:49. > :27:54.the pressures described. I think that really is the way to go. I
:27:54. > :27:59.think it's true, in a lot of the social areas, the illusion that the
:27:59. > :28:04.Government can act through legislation is self-defeating.
:28:04. > :28:07.rating videos and insisting that certain magazines are put out of
:28:07. > :28:10.reach? There are certain things that can be done to assist parent
:28:10. > :28:16.and like rating of videos is a good example where you've got it. Some
:28:16. > :28:20.of the controls which are suggested for pornography on the internet
:28:20. > :28:25.which can help parents are good things too. I think the concept of
:28:25. > :28:27.what the Government can do ought to be how can it assist parent,
:28:27. > :28:32.grandparents and children themselves, control what they are
:28:32. > :28:36.doing, rather than stop them doing things? The man in the back there.
:28:36. > :28:42.I think that Mr Hitchens' suggestion that if we don't buy
:28:42. > :28:45.into his historically inaccurate and rose-tinted view of pre60's
:28:45. > :28:52.sexual morality we therefore support the skphroiltation of
:28:52. > :28:58.children. That is a false -- exploitation of children. That is a
:28:58. > :29:06.false die cot my. I would like to take exception to what Germaine
:29:06. > :29:11.Greer said as dressing your children as tarts. I have two young
:29:11. > :29:20.girls and the coy kissing of daddy before they go to bed. Surely they
:29:20. > :29:26.give me a kiss because they love me? That depends whether a children
:29:26. > :29:31.is being taught to flirt with you rather than simply - Who is going
:29:31. > :29:35.to teach my children to flirt with me? That is an awful thing to say.
:29:35. > :29:40.There are all kinds of ways of kissing your children, but there is
:29:40. > :29:45.one thing I would like to say here which is that kids don't have a
:29:45. > :29:47.single culture. They have all different ones and schools side by
:29:47. > :29:52.side in the same street can exhibit very different behaviours, because
:29:52. > :30:00.it's the way the kids in those schools define themselves. We have
:30:00. > :30:03.some schools where the girls wear their uniforms right down to their
:30:03. > :30:08.ankles and the others where they wear them as short as they can get
:30:09. > :30:12.them. It's all part of the way they define themselves and they can
:30:12. > :30:16.define themselves into opposition to a prevailing morality. When you
:30:16. > :30:20.are a child what you are doing is forging your own path. Parents
:30:20. > :30:24.might like to think that their kids want to have sex the way they do.
:30:24. > :30:28.They are almost certainly wrong. What we have got to understand is
:30:28. > :30:38.how creative kids are and how the development of sexuality has to do
:30:38. > :30:51.
:30:51. > :30:53.Have you ever heard me use the word unnatural? No, it is encouraging
:30:53. > :31:03.girls to be rural and manipulative in the way they approach other
:31:03. > :31:07.
:31:07. > :31:13.people. This is something which enters right into the culture.
:31:13. > :31:20.That's how sick we are as a society, that people introduce sex into a
:31:20. > :31:23.good night kiss between father and daughter. Unbelievable! I very much
:31:23. > :31:26.agree with the lady in the audience, and I have to say, I disagree with
:31:26. > :31:31.you, Peter, that freedom of information about sex is the root
:31:31. > :31:35.of all of this. But I do remain concerned about the sexualisation
:31:36. > :31:40.of much of our culture, whether it is the soft porn lads mags next to
:31:40. > :31:45.the pick-and-mix, or the pop videos, which inevitably have a very
:31:45. > :31:50.slender lady in a skimpy outfit gyrating around. He isn't worried
:31:50. > :31:53.about the message it sends to girls in particular, that what is
:31:53. > :31:58.important is the way you look, and being a sexualisation object is
:31:58. > :32:05.what is most important. I'm worried about the consequences. The NSPCC
:32:05. > :32:09.did a study, and found that one in six teenage girls had been
:32:09. > :32:16.pressurised into sex by their boyfriends. Girl Guides did a study,
:32:16. > :32:20.and nearly half of young girls said the most negative thing about being
:32:20. > :32:24.a woman was the pressure to be attractive. Can the Government
:32:24. > :32:30.solve all of these problems? I do not think so, it is a multi-faceted
:32:30. > :32:39.problem. The media does need to take a more responsible view, and
:32:39. > :32:47.it is not just about sexualisation. Even here on the BBC, what other
:32:47. > :32:50.role-models? Consumers can have an impact as well. There is a campaign
:32:50. > :32:55.which managed to stop the Early Learning Centre from selling its
:32:55. > :33:05.dressing-up clothes, where the girls were sold nurses' outfits,
:33:05. > :33:05.
:33:05. > :33:11.and the boys were sold doctors outfits. Sorry, if 32% of heroes
:33:11. > :33:19.are male... Sorry, I got it the wrong way round, 32% of heroes on
:33:19. > :33:22.BBC are female. I agree with Germaine Greer, we need to get rid
:33:22. > :33:27.of the sexualisation, but you need to replace it with something else
:33:27. > :33:34.for people to aspire to. education is not freedom of
:33:34. > :33:44.information, sex education is propaganda for promiscuity.
:33:44. > :33:48.
:33:48. > :33:57.Ridiculous! How do you instil self- esteem when there's semi-naked
:33:57. > :34:05.people everywhere you look - billboards, buses, TV. You have
:34:05. > :34:09.said many times on the panel, sex sells, so what hope have we got off
:34:09. > :34:12.self-regulation, while people are making money out of it? I think the
:34:12. > :34:17.key issue is in relation to parenting, which has been touched
:34:17. > :34:20.upon. In my role as a police officer, and my wife's role as a
:34:20. > :34:26.teaching assistant, we see lots of examples where there is inadequate
:34:26. > :34:32.parenting in lots of different ways. I do not have an answer to that.
:34:32. > :34:40.But I think that's really where it starts. Until there is effective
:34:40. > :34:43.parenting, and children are given good examples from a very early age,
:34:43. > :34:53.then this remains one small example of lots of ills in our society at
:34:53. > :34:54.
:34:54. > :34:56.A question from Jody Shanahan Predergast, please. Is it right to
:34:56. > :35:06.seek to become a development superpower at a time when public
:35:06. > :35:07.
:35:07. > :35:13.services are being slashed? Andrew Mitchell said we are a development
:35:13. > :35:22.superpower. Is it right to seek to become a development superpower at
:35:22. > :35:25.a time when public services are being slashed? Peter Hitchens?
:35:25. > :35:29.though I do not necessarily think it is a question of public services
:35:29. > :35:33.being slashed. I think there is a strong argument against a great
:35:33. > :35:38.deal of this aid, much of it is misdirected, much of it ends up in
:35:38. > :35:41.the hands of despots, much of it is wasted, and a lot of it does not
:35:41. > :35:46.stand up to much examination, and quite a lot of it does quite a bit
:35:46. > :35:50.of damage. It is an overrated form of activity. One great economist
:35:50. > :35:54.said it was a way of taking money from the poor of the first world
:35:54. > :35:58.and giving it to the rich of the Third World. In many cases, that
:35:58. > :36:02.seems to be absolutely right. The reason why this government, which
:36:02. > :36:07.many people wrongly think is Conservative, is so committed to
:36:07. > :36:10.this very left wing, liberal idea, that by spending lots and lots of
:36:10. > :36:14.taxpayers' money, gathered from not particularly well-off people in
:36:15. > :36:20.this country, in the Third World, they're necessarily going to do
:36:20. > :36:24.good. They are not. I think Andrew Mitchell knows that very well. He
:36:24. > :36:29.knows what his own department does. He knows how much money goes astray.
:36:29. > :36:35.How much of it has to go through the European Union, in any case? I
:36:35. > :36:39.think Neri 20% of our foreign aid is actually spent by the European
:36:39. > :36:43.Union on our behalf. And much of that is on things which we have no
:36:43. > :36:46.say about. So I think there should be more scepticism about things
:36:46. > :36:56.like foreign aid, and a lot less open-mouthed belief that just
:36:56. > :37:02.
:37:02. > :37:12.because it is called aid, it Andrew Mitchell, you actually said,
:37:12. > :37:13.
:37:13. > :37:18.the Americans were a military superpower, and we are a aid
:37:18. > :37:21.superpower. I think it was an important thing, when the coalition
:37:21. > :37:25.was formed, when we said we would not balance the books on the backs
:37:25. > :37:30.of the poorest people in the world. I'm proud of being a member of the
:37:30. > :37:34.government which took the decision. We completely understand Peter's
:37:34. > :37:37.point that you will never maintain support for Britain's development
:37:37. > :37:41.programme unless you can demonstrate to hard-pressed
:37:41. > :37:44.taxpayers that for every pound we take from them, we're actually
:37:44. > :37:50.getting 100p of delivery in terms of development on the ground. And
:37:50. > :37:53.over the last year, that is what we have set out to do. We have made
:37:53. > :37:56.independent evaluation of British aid, so that people do not have to
:37:57. > :38:01.rely on the word of ministers who can sweep inconvenient truths under
:38:01. > :38:06.the carpet. We have got independent corroboration, and we have focused
:38:07. > :38:09.on the results of the programme. And we have done this for two
:38:09. > :38:15.reasons - first of all, because it is morally right to do something
:38:15. > :38:20.about these appalling discrepancies of opportunity which exist in our
:38:20. > :38:23.world today, which our generation, for the first time ever, has a real
:38:23. > :38:27.chance of correcting and ameliorating. On Monday we're going
:38:27. > :38:30.to have a huge conference in London, with people gathered from
:38:30. > :38:36.governments, from private sector companies, from philanthropic
:38:36. > :38:42.foundations, to try to try not -- to sign up to vaccinating a quarter
:38:42. > :38:47.of a billion children around the world, who die from diseases which
:38:47. > :38:51.we are entirely able to prevent. But what do you say about the
:38:51. > :38:58.question, when other things are being cut, why should this be
:38:58. > :39:04.protected? Why are you going to legislate to spend three-quarters
:39:04. > :39:13.of 1% of our national budget on aid? We believe it is morally right,
:39:13. > :39:19.but also absolutely in our national interest. I was recently in Somalia,
:39:19. > :39:27.a country from whence comes all sorts of threats to Britain.
:39:27. > :39:32.Terrorism, migration - it is a source of drug running, a source of
:39:32. > :39:35.disease spreading. Tackling those causes of this functionality,
:39:35. > :39:40.tackling the causes of poverty upstream is much cheaper than
:39:40. > :39:47.having to deal with them later on, when they burst out and you have to
:39:47. > :39:49.send in the troops. Self-interest? It is both morally right, and
:39:49. > :39:55.absolutely in our national self- interest to stand by this
:39:55. > :39:58.commitment. I would like to quote one of my own experiences,
:39:58. > :40:04.volunteering in the Poole, but first of all, have you ever been to
:40:04. > :40:14.an undeveloped country before? of them, yes. Which one would you
:40:14. > :40:16.
:40:16. > :40:25.like me to list? Somalia... In the middle of a famine. Well, I went to
:40:25. > :40:29.jig Nepal, where I saw that foreign aid can stop young girls being sold
:40:29. > :40:39.it into prostitution over the border into EDF. -- in to India. It
:40:39. > :40:39.
:40:40. > :40:48.can stop the disabled from dying. Let me finish, please. You have
:40:48. > :40:54.done better than I have, you have silenced him. I'm sorry, but I
:40:54. > :40:59.would like to have my say. There is a precedent in this country that we
:40:59. > :41:02.would not allow the disabled to die just because they cannot earn a
:41:02. > :41:06.livelihood. This is what foreign aid protects, the basic human
:41:06. > :41:10.rights of people around the world. Thankfully, we live in a democratic
:41:10. > :41:14.country, where our rights are protected. However, across the
:41:14. > :41:17.world, the rights over their human beings are not. What about the
:41:17. > :41:26.question, which is that went public services in this country are being
:41:26. > :41:29.cut, the overseas aid budget is being protected? At that point I
:41:29. > :41:32.would look at some things which we are very lucky to have provided by
:41:32. > :41:37.the state in this country. Although some people might be extremely poor
:41:37. > :41:41.in this country, they will not be allowed to fall under the radar if
:41:41. > :41:46.they call on community services in the right way. What do you say when
:41:46. > :41:56.you discover that some of this money is spent on dancing lessons
:41:56. > :42:06.
:42:06. > :42:11.or building motorways through 35 years ago, we pledged 0.7% of
:42:11. > :42:13.our national income to the overseas development aid effort. It was out
:42:13. > :42:17.of self-interest, if you like, because one thing we are supposed
:42:17. > :42:20.to be doing out there causing growing markets. We are going to
:42:20. > :42:29.need markets, we cannot sell to people who have no wealth of any
:42:29. > :42:39.kind. It was self-interest, but interestingly, nobody did it. We
:42:39. > :42:39.
:42:39. > :42:44.got to about half that amount. The Americans didn't follow through on
:42:44. > :42:50.it, for all sorts of reasons. The calculations have been distorted,
:42:50. > :42:58.it has been presented as overseas development aid when it was not. I
:42:58. > :43:03.agree, it should be properly administered. Should it be given to
:43:03. > :43:13.a rich country like India? In what way are we going to call in you
:43:13. > :43:19.
:43:19. > :43:24.rich? -- India. India itself gives as much in overseas aid as we give
:43:24. > :43:28.to India. It has nuclear weapons, I think that's one way of saying it
:43:28. > :43:33.is which. For goodness sake, we play these games with figures all
:43:33. > :43:37.the time. Really, it is a question of administration and organisation.
:43:37. > :43:47.We are for ever having to patients amounts of money for emergency
:43:47. > :43:48.
:43:49. > :43:52.relief. If we were actually properly organising things,
:43:53. > :43:57.actually supporting societies properly, we would not have to do
:43:58. > :44:01.things like take freight in by air. It is all the result of penny
:44:01. > :44:06.pinching and sloppiness. You do not get what you do not pay for. You
:44:06. > :44:11.have got to put in if you want to get out. Let me go back to the
:44:11. > :44:18.questioner. At the same time that budgets in the NHS are being frozen,
:44:18. > :44:25.and public services are being cut, Pakistan is to receive �665 million
:44:25. > :44:30.sterling over the next four years. Meanwhile, Pakistan announced it is
:44:30. > :44:32.to increase its military budget by 12%. I was wondering why it is the
:44:32. > :44:42.responsibility of the British taxpayer to pay for public services
:44:42. > :44:48.
:44:48. > :44:53.in Pakistan? The fundamental reason is the reason that Andrew set out,
:44:53. > :44:57.the moral case and the economic self-interest case. To take the
:44:57. > :45:01.example of India, the Open University has got a programme
:45:01. > :45:05.supported by Andrew and his department to educate teachers in
:45:05. > :45:15.India to raise educational standards, to help their prosperity
:45:15. > :45:18.and health and everything. It is very much in our interests to do it.
:45:18. > :45:21.But I dislike the idea that if we put up walls around this country
:45:21. > :45:25.and forget that the rest of the world exists, and think we can just
:45:25. > :45:35.look after ourselves, and that the problems of the rest of the world
:45:35. > :45:37.
:45:37. > :45:42.Pakistan's an excellent case in point, where we have a massive
:45:42. > :45:46.interest in actually improving the prosperity, education, capacity of
:45:46. > :45:48.the people of Pakistan, because from Pakistan comes some of the
:45:48. > :45:57.most serious threats we have to deal with. It's absolutely in our
:45:57. > :46:02.interests and we should be doing it. Is that answer, answering your
:46:02. > :46:12.question? Are you happy with the answer? Ierbgs I'll have to live
:46:12. > :46:14.
:46:14. > :46:18.with it. I'll have to live with it. We will have meet the moral
:46:18. > :46:22.commitment. I think in the previous Government I think Clare Short did
:46:22. > :46:27.excellent work in moving the agenda up and I'm delighted this
:46:27. > :46:30.Government is taking it so seriously. Of course, there is the
:46:30. > :46:33.issues of making it transparent and money doesn't go into the hands of
:46:33. > :46:36.governments where we know there are corruption issues and it's
:46:36. > :46:40.delivered through other partners in those countries. All of that has to
:46:40. > :46:45.happen, but I've been to Sierra Leone which is one of the poorest
:46:45. > :46:47.countries in the world, in the aftermath of civil war, where child
:46:48. > :46:52.soldiers have been conscripted and made to do the most appalling
:46:52. > :46:55.things and where the poverty was just like nothing you can almost
:46:55. > :46:58.imagine. We have that morale responsibility, but we also know in
:46:58. > :47:00.states where there has been conflict and where there is massive
:47:00. > :47:05.poverty and big problems with their economy, that that is where there
:47:05. > :47:08.is more likely to be a breeding ground for terrorism and
:47:08. > :47:12.instability that will affect us and be much more difficult for us to
:47:12. > :47:17.deal with when it erupts, so it's both morally right and in our
:47:17. > :47:21.country's interest to do this in terms of the aid budget. Can I come
:47:21. > :47:26.back on Peter's point, about how all the money is stolen and
:47:26. > :47:31.misused? We have set up, the coalition Government, has set up
:47:31. > :47:34.the independent evaluation of aid, so you'll be able to see, because
:47:34. > :47:38.independent agencies will publish a report not sent to ministers, but
:47:38. > :47:42.given to Parliament, to the relevant Select Committee to see
:47:42. > :47:48.whether it is providing good value and the transparency commitment,
:47:48. > :47:50.the fact that everything above �500 goes through the net and we are
:47:50. > :47:54.committed to transparency because we understand we'll not maintain
:47:54. > :47:58.public support for this programme unless we can demonstrate real
:47:58. > :48:06.value for money and result on the ground. Thank you very much.
:48:06. > :48:12.Another question. Does a deliberate policy of rape by Gaddafi in Libya
:48:12. > :48:15.compel us to commit ground troops? That is the allegation from the
:48:15. > :48:20.prosecution of the International Criminal Court, saying that rape
:48:20. > :48:26.was organised and a new aspect of Colonel Gaddafi' repression. Does
:48:26. > :48:31.that commit us? The rule of course ats -- at the moment is we
:48:32. > :48:35.shouldn't put troops on the grounds. Charles Clarke? I think the
:48:35. > :48:39.question putting troops on the ground is the matter that has to be
:48:39. > :48:44.considered by the people looking at the best way of getting change in
:48:44. > :48:48.lib yarbgs which I would say has to re-- Libya, which I would say has
:48:48. > :48:53.to remove the regime and give elections. Not a question for the
:48:53. > :48:56.UN? It is a question for the UN. What I'm saying, the direct link
:48:56. > :48:59.between rape and the rape allegations that are being made and
:48:59. > :49:03.the commitment of ground troops is something which I don't think is
:49:03. > :49:06.right. It's an appalling allegation against Colonel Gaddafi that this
:49:06. > :49:09.is happening and it's right it should be considered by the
:49:09. > :49:12.International Criminal Court so he can be brought to justice there in
:49:12. > :49:17.those circumstances. What I'm saying is the decision about
:49:17. > :49:21.whether or not to commit ground troops has to be one made by the UN
:49:21. > :49:27.Security Council on the overall issue of what is the best way of
:49:27. > :49:34.achieving change in Libya. You Sir, in the second row. Is not sending
:49:34. > :49:39.the Apaches in this early a half- way house? You think that is half
:49:39. > :49:41.way? They based on ground attack and they are equivalent to ground
:49:41. > :49:46.troops. Andrew Mitchell do you think this has changed the whole
:49:46. > :49:51.nature of the operations in Libya, the policy of rape and you've just
:49:51. > :49:55.come back from there? These are appalling allegations. They are not
:49:56. > :50:00.the first such allegations to be made by the ICC. We have also seen
:50:00. > :50:05.the use of cluster bombs by Gaddafi against his own people, blowing the
:50:05. > :50:09.limbs off children and adult, as I saw last weekend in a hospital in
:50:09. > :50:14.Benghazi. Does it mean we have to commit ground troops? No, it does
:50:14. > :50:20.not. We are doing everything in accordance with international law.
:50:20. > :50:24.The UN resolution 1973 underlines the importance of Gaddafi going.
:50:24. > :50:28.And his regime ending. That event is getting more likely. Firstly,
:50:28. > :50:32.because his military equipment is being very severely degraded from
:50:32. > :50:37.the air every day. Secondly, because he is suffering defections
:50:37. > :50:41.at all levels in his regime. Thirdly, because this work of the
:50:41. > :50:45.ICC has a very important effect on his support and his supporters,
:50:45. > :50:50.because they can see the great danger that they'll be held to
:50:50. > :50:54.account and the age of impunity will be over. I don't think we need
:50:54. > :50:58.to commit ground troops. I'm optimistic that we are going to be
:50:58. > :51:02.able to continue to protect the citizens, which after all was why
:51:02. > :51:05.the UN authorised this intervention in the first place. The
:51:05. > :51:12.intervention of the international community stopped a bloody massacre
:51:12. > :51:17.going on in Benghazi, which would have been far worse than anything
:51:17. > :51:20.we saw in Srebrenica for example. Peter. It seems to me that Libya is
:51:20. > :51:27.the business of the Lybians, not us. We have rapes taking place in this
:51:28. > :51:33.country. As we see from the attempts by the Secretary of State
:51:33. > :51:39.for Justice, the Government isn't particularly anxious to punish them.
:51:39. > :51:42.Hang on. It's not - I keep stopping me. People listening to you will be
:51:42. > :51:48.surprised that we have rape in this country. What the ICC is alleging
:51:48. > :51:53.is rape being used as a matter of policy by Colonel Gaddafi. I know
:51:53. > :51:57.what is alleged. I'm saying we have concerns in our own country, if you
:51:57. > :52:01.would actually let me say anything. Come on then. It would be easy. The
:52:01. > :52:05.point that I am making is this: we have many concerns in this country
:52:05. > :52:08.which are not being dealt with by a Government which is uninterested in
:52:08. > :52:13.protecting its own population from an enormous amount of crime and
:52:13. > :52:16.disorder and yet it poses as the saviour of the world in Libya. What
:52:16. > :52:21.business is it of ours? We have heard on many occasions in recent
:52:21. > :52:25.years stories about things going on in other countries, to stampede us
:52:25. > :52:29.into supporting intervention. We were told about weapons of mass
:52:29. > :52:34.destruction from Iran. This was false. We do not know if the
:52:34. > :52:38.allegations against Colonel Gaddafi' troops are true. --
:52:38. > :52:41.Gaddafi geas troops are true. It seems that an attempt might be made
:52:41. > :52:46.to try to stampede the UN and this country and others into committing
:52:46. > :52:50.ground troops in Libya. Well, five years hence, when they are still
:52:50. > :52:53.there, and the coffins are coming back through Brize Norton or
:52:53. > :52:57.Wootton Bassett and you are saying, why are we still there and why are
:52:57. > :53:01.people dying in this country in which we have no substantial
:53:01. > :53:06.interest, you'll know it was because you were stampeded into
:53:06. > :53:13.other war by a Government that can't look after you at home, but
:53:13. > :53:20.likes to parade its wonderfullness by invading foreign countries. I
:53:20. > :53:25.urge you to be sceptical about this sort of stuff. It doesn't mean we
:53:25. > :53:29.should be scared of going into just wars. We have a moral obligation to
:53:29. > :53:32.help people out. I'm not too keen on ground troops, but it should be
:53:32. > :53:37.an option. You are the right age, off you go, sign up.
:53:37. > :53:42.APPLAUSE The man in the black and white
:53:42. > :53:47.there. It must be said that the current situation in Libya helps
:53:47. > :53:53.nobody. It's just prolonging a very vicious civil war, but as the
:53:53. > :53:56.Sunday mail hack has pointed out, sending in ground troops will not
:53:56. > :53:59.necessarily help anything. In both Afghanistan and Iraq we sent them
:53:59. > :54:03.in and removed the people in question that we were looking for
:54:03. > :54:06.and in those cases Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein and we are still
:54:06. > :54:10.there. The situation is even worse. What is there to say that if we
:54:10. > :54:16.went into Libya the same wouldn't happen? Why can't we try a
:54:16. > :54:20.different technique and perhaps negotiate with Colonel Gaddafi?
:54:20. > :54:27.It's curious to agree with him and insult him at the same time.
:54:27. > :54:32.pains me to say that a gree with him. Germaine Greer. Rape is always
:54:32. > :54:36.present when you have slaughter. You don't have to have a Government
:54:36. > :54:41.fiat to do it. One of the interesting things about what
:54:41. > :54:43.happens if we send in ground troops, how will we be sure they don't do a
:54:44. > :54:46.bit of raping in their turn? APPLAUSE
:54:46. > :54:53.One of the interesting things about the current situation is surprise,
:54:53. > :54:58.surprise, allegations of rape are being made about the rebels as well.
:54:58. > :55:04.Who knows, I don't understand the warfare, but it seems to me you
:55:04. > :55:09.don't start it because once you start this kind of situation then
:55:09. > :55:15.the - all kinds of people suffer who are not a part of the conflict
:55:15. > :55:20.at all. One of the curious things about this story is the allegation
:55:20. > :55:24.that Gaddafi's commanders have supplied the soldiers with viagra
:55:24. > :55:28.so they are capable of raping. What is wrong with the Lybians?
:55:28. > :55:33.Everybody else managed without? Give them too much of that and
:55:33. > :55:37.they'll be raping each other. The situation might just solve itself.
:55:37. > :55:40.It seems completely demented the story that we are dealing with at
:55:40. > :55:45.the moment. There was another famous case where rape was alleged
:55:45. > :55:53.as a policy on the part of the Pakistani commanders in Bangladesh
:55:53. > :55:57.in 1971. That was never stood up, but it turned out to be another
:55:57. > :56:01.urban myth. Extraordinary notion that 300,000 women were raped and
:56:01. > :56:07.left at the end of the war looking for husbands. It turns - it's not
:56:07. > :56:12.true. I think in this case we have got one of those legends that is
:56:13. > :56:16.going to appear about the hated enemy. All soldiers in certain
:56:16. > :56:24.circumstances will rape, regardless of whether they are ours or theirs
:56:24. > :56:27.or whose. Do you think we should be if Libya in the first place? It's
:56:27. > :56:30.an extraordinary thing isn't it, that we supported Gaddafi and we
:56:30. > :56:34.sold him the weapons to suppress his own people, then when the
:56:34. > :56:38.people finally boil up, we suddenly change sides and decide we are
:56:38. > :56:46.going to be their safiorz. Were we right or wrong? We are hypocrits as
:56:46. > :56:52.usual. Right or wrong to go in? don't think we'll get out. It will
:56:52. > :56:57.turn out to be a tack Keller roar. I disagree that we should shut our
:56:57. > :57:03.eyes and let things happen in the world. But the question I do
:57:03. > :57:08.believe that is morally right to intervene, do we have a means to do
:57:08. > :57:15.this? The Government is capg carriers and the British army have
:57:15. > :57:19.a record low -- scrapping carriers and the British army have a record
:57:19. > :57:25.low intake. You can't get involved if foreign adventures if you don't
:57:25. > :57:29.have the means to do so and to be a credible NATO partner. It's a very
:57:29. > :57:33.valid point, being raised. Obviously it's not purely Britain's
:57:33. > :57:35.moral responsibility alone. This is on the back of the UN Security
:57:35. > :57:41.Council resolution and 17 different countries are involved in the
:57:41. > :57:44.action in Libya. I think it's that United Nations' backing is what
:57:45. > :57:49.makes it different from Iraq. I was advance the -- against the war and
:57:49. > :57:53.I marched against it. It was an appalling mistake, but this is
:57:53. > :57:55.different. We have international consensus about it and regional
:57:56. > :58:00.support from the partners and when somebody said it's not helping
:58:00. > :58:05.anybody, I think the citizens of Benghazi, who heard Gaddafi say he
:58:05. > :58:14.was going to bring in the tanks and go from house to house and show no
:58:14. > :58:19.mercy would disagree. Ground troops? What is important is the UN
:58:19. > :58:23.resolution, which explicitly rules out an invading force. Wow like to
:58:23. > :58:27.see an attempt to have it changed to allow ground troops or do you
:58:27. > :58:32.think it's wrong? I'm not a military strategist, so I'm not
:58:32. > :58:36.best place today say how to make sure that we can best ensure the
:58:36. > :58:39.security of the Libyan people. That is what is in the resolution and
:58:39. > :58:42.that is when the key important thing is. These are just the most
:58:43. > :58:49.appalling allegations, but I think they have some credibility and they
:58:49. > :58:52.are not just being put out there by some random bloke. This is the
:58:52. > :58:58.prosecutor who is giving this credibility and it shows how
:58:58. > :59:02.Gaddafi has no respect for the people who are his fellow zitzens.
:59:02. > :59:07.Andrew Mitchell, do you -- citizens. Andrew Mitchell, do you think there
:59:07. > :59:12.will be a time for ground troops to finish whatever it is that they
:59:12. > :59:15.want to achieve? No-one is - Peter has set up a straw man to knock him
:59:16. > :59:20.down. No-one is suggesting at the moment that there should be any
:59:20. > :59:25.ground troops used in Libya. We are able to fulfil our commitment under
:59:25. > :59:29.the UN resolution in the current way we are doing it. That is
:59:29. > :59:32.allowing us to protect the people from Gaddafi. That was what we were
:59:32. > :59:38.mandated to do and that is why I say for the reasons I set out, that
:59:39. > :59:42.I think we'll be able to fulfil that commitment. I hope we don't
:59:42. > :59:47.need ground troops to be committed. We must stop now, because our hour
:59:47. > :59:50.is up. We are going to be in Aberdeen next week. We'll be in
:59:50. > :59:54.Huddersfield the week after that, so Aberdeen and Huddersfield. If