0:00:12 > 0:00:16Tonight we are in Aberdeen and With me on our panel the First
0:00:16 > 0:00:20Minister of Scotland, Alex Salmond, from the cabinet the Liberal
0:00:20 > 0:00:23Democrat Scottish Secretary, Michael Moore, the last
0:00:23 > 0:00:27Conservative Secretary of State for Scotland, Michael Forsythe, the
0:00:27 > 0:00:37Labour MP from Glasgow, Margaret Curran, and one of Scotland's
0:00:37 > 0:00:47richest men, the businessman Tom Hunter.
0:00:47 > 0:00:49
0:00:49 > 0:00:53APPLAUSE. Thank you very much. Our first
0:00:53 > 0:00:59question tonight is from Emma Campbell, please. With the UK
0:00:59 > 0:01:03retail sales falling 1.4% in May is a temporary VAT cut needed to start
0:01:03 > 0:01:07the economy? That's the suggestion made by the Shadow Chancellor today,
0:01:07 > 0:01:12Ed Balls, that there should be a cut in VAT to kickstart the economy.
0:01:12 > 0:01:16Michael Michael Forsythe? Absolutely not. It would cost �12
0:01:16 > 0:01:20billion and we are trying to pay off a deficit where the interest
0:01:20 > 0:01:24costs are enormous and if the markets think for a moment that we
0:01:24 > 0:01:27have lost our determination to reduce this deficit, then we will
0:01:27 > 0:01:32see interest rates going up and that will be catastrophic for jobs,
0:01:32 > 0:01:36for people paying mortgages, and for our economy overall. You think
0:01:36 > 0:01:43he he doesn't skwrpb stand the economy or was he playing politics?
0:01:43 > 0:01:47If he understood the economy we wouldn't be in this mess now.
0:01:47 > 0:01:50APPLAUSE. I think he is probably trying to get a headline to take
0:01:50 > 0:01:53attention away from some of the documents that were brought into
0:01:54 > 0:01:58the public domain that showed he was plotting against his own Prime
0:01:58 > 0:02:03Minister. I think Ed Balls has made it absolutely clear today what the
0:02:03 > 0:02:07whole country knows, which is that the Labour Party has lost its
0:02:07 > 0:02:11economic competence. We have to stick with this prol. -- policy.
0:02:11 > 0:02:14The slightest indication of change could cause great difficulty and I
0:02:14 > 0:02:18think it's important that people recognise that we are not out of
0:02:18 > 0:02:25the woods yet and there are serious problems still in the banking
0:02:25 > 0:02:29system, and with the euro in Greece and we really have to keep on with
0:02:29 > 0:02:32this policy of reducing the deficit. By the way, when we talk about
0:02:32 > 0:02:39reducing the deficit, all we're doing is talking about reducing the
0:02:39 > 0:02:43rate at which we are increasing the debt. The deficit of �150 billion
0:02:43 > 0:02:48is the amount that our debt is increasing. The national debt
0:02:48 > 0:02:51doubled in the last parliament and we are, if we get rid of the
0:02:51 > 0:02:54structural deficit, we will still have a larger debt. You are saying
0:02:54 > 0:02:58it's not even tough enough at the moment? I am saying it's as tough
0:02:58 > 0:03:01as we can be and... You would like it to be tougher, if it could be?
0:03:01 > 0:03:06think we should recognise we are in very serious difficulties because
0:03:06 > 0:03:09of the huge increase in public expenditure in place under the last
0:03:09 > 0:03:15Government, which was not able to be funded because it was the
0:03:15 > 0:03:18product of a boom. Alex Salmond. wonder if Michael is telling us the
0:03:18 > 0:03:22whole story, because it was interesting last last week when
0:03:22 > 0:03:26this argument was planning about plan B, the Chancellor gave an
0:03:26 > 0:03:30interview where he wouldn't say they were going on to plan B but
0:03:30 > 0:03:37said there was flexibility within plan A. Whether you call it
0:03:37 > 0:03:47flexibility or you call it plan B, I am for plan B of flex flex
0:03:47 > 0:03:54
0:03:54 > 0:03:59I think we have got to act on bank lending, small and medium
0:03:59 > 0:04:03businesses are still not getting access to bank lending, and I think
0:04:03 > 0:04:07in terms of consumer confidence you have got to try and address, which
0:04:07 > 0:04:10is why you need flexibility in a plan B which is what's stopping
0:04:10 > 0:04:15people spending. What's stopping people spending is fear of
0:04:15 > 0:04:19unemployment. When people believe their jobs are at risk they save,
0:04:19 > 0:04:23they don't spend. Once they believe or can see a light at the end.
0:04:23 > 0:04:26Tunnel, more job security that's when people people spend and invest
0:04:26 > 0:04:30so that would be my prescription and frankly, I don't care if you
0:04:30 > 0:04:36call it plan B or flexibility around plan A, the Chancellor
0:04:36 > 0:04:41should get on with it. APPLAUSE.
0:04:41 > 0:04:45So, Margaret Curran, two against Ed Balls. Are you fully in favour of
0:04:45 > 0:04:50what he said? Yes, I do think what Ed Balls is saying this afternoon
0:04:50 > 0:04:54is right and I do - to answer the question the lady asked about the
0:04:54 > 0:05:00VAT increase, we do have to bring down VAT because it would encourage
0:05:00 > 0:05:04spending. How much would it cost to do that? Michael Forsythe said �12
0:05:04 > 0:05:06billion, far be it from me to agree with Michael's figures but if we go
0:05:06 > 0:05:09with that figure it's an interesting figure because the
0:05:09 > 0:05:13Government have to h to increase welfare spending by �12 billion
0:05:13 > 0:05:17according to their own independent forecasts by �12 billion because of
0:05:17 > 0:05:20so many people out of work. I think it's crazy that we have a situation
0:05:20 > 0:05:24where you are actually increasing welfare spending because you are
0:05:24 > 0:05:27not tackling the job situation. What we need to do - let me agree
0:05:27 > 0:05:31with Alex Salmond on this point, we need to get people back to work,
0:05:31 > 0:05:36having more people on the dole is just a stupid strategy and takes
0:05:36 > 0:05:41you down a false road. We have just had some fantastic jobs figures.
0:05:41 > 0:05:45Well, let's not get too complacent about those jobs figures. I am not
0:05:45 > 0:05:50complacent. Let me tell you about those figures, any fall in
0:05:50 > 0:05:54unemployment is to be welcomed but there was also an increase in the
0:05:54 > 0:05:58claimant of people seeking jobseeker's allowance. Let me tell
0:05:58 > 0:06:01you about parts of Glasgow, there are approximately 25 people chasing
0:06:01 > 0:06:04every vacancy. That's a desperate situation and what we should do is
0:06:04 > 0:06:11have a Government that actually wants to do something about that
0:06:11 > 0:06:15and get people back to work. That's the way to start getting back on
0:06:15 > 0:06:20the road to recovery. APPLAUSE.
0:06:20 > 0:06:26Alex Salmond said he didn't think two half% off VAT was the right
0:06:26 > 0:06:28answer? There are other things need to be done, it's part of the answer
0:06:28 > 0:06:32because the institute of fiscal studies said the last time when the
0:06:32 > 0:06:35Labour Government took that down that it was an important stimulus,
0:06:36 > 0:06:39it did bring borrowing down, it did help to reduce the deficit last
0:06:39 > 0:06:43time. You have a short short memory, you are forgetting how seriously
0:06:43 > 0:06:47the economy was in a very bad place only a year ago. We have come out
0:06:47 > 0:06:51of the deepest recession over the last few years. There were a number
0:06:51 > 0:06:55of factors, but the fact is that your Government left us with a huge
0:06:55 > 0:07:00gap between the amount we raised in tax every year and the amount we
0:07:00 > 0:07:04spend. We could not continue on that basis for any longer. That's
0:07:04 > 0:07:07why the Chancellor set out a very bold plan to reduce the deficit, to
0:07:07 > 0:07:11ensure that we create the conditions where jobs can be
0:07:11 > 0:07:15created. Let's agree on that. The importance for the economy for the
0:07:15 > 0:07:23country as a whole is to make sure we create more jobs. What's wrong
0:07:23 > 0:07:31with the idea of a stimulus? We had stimulus for a long time - wait a
0:07:31 > 0:07:35minute. You changed your tune when you went to the Tories.
0:07:35 > 0:07:38APPLAUSE. The truth is having Maxed out on
0:07:38 > 0:07:41the nation's credit card as you did for a long time, we are the ones
0:07:41 > 0:07:47who are having to pick up the pieces and make sure we get the
0:07:47 > 0:07:50economy back in the right place. So, help businesses by reducing the
0:07:50 > 0:07:53taxes they're paying, making sure interest rates are as low as
0:07:53 > 0:07:57possible. If you doubt us, look at across Europe, see what interest
0:07:57 > 0:08:01rates we are paying that are comparable to Germany as opposed to
0:08:01 > 0:08:05Greece, which is paying something like 18%, that's not sustainable.
0:08:05 > 0:08:10Thank you. The woman there. Salmond believes that we are all
0:08:10 > 0:08:17saving instead of spending. Wake up, many people would love to have the
0:08:17 > 0:08:21luxury to be able to save at the moment.
0:08:21 > 0:08:25APPLAUSE. Tom Hunter, you are from the
0:08:25 > 0:08:30business world, what do you think of this idea of a cut in VAT?
0:08:30 > 0:08:36retailer I will take whatever help I can get, because consumer
0:08:36 > 0:08:41confidence is at its lowest point that I have ever seen it. Will VAT
0:08:41 > 0:08:48help? It may help, but as Alex Salmond said, consumer confidence
0:08:48 > 0:08:54is made up of many things and the consumer is being hit with Scottish
0:08:54 > 0:08:59power 19% on fuel, prices unbelievable, the fear of
0:08:59 > 0:09:04unemployment, are they going to have a job at the end of the week?
0:09:05 > 0:09:09People are frightened to spend and they do rein in spending so I am
0:09:09 > 0:09:14for less tax, not more tax, and I think where the current Government
0:09:14 > 0:09:17has got it wrong, quite frankly, is we all understand we all need to
0:09:17 > 0:09:23draw in our belts, everybody understands that, but where is the
0:09:23 > 0:09:28growth? More importantly, to get us out of the situation we are in,
0:09:28 > 0:09:31will be the tax take on the increase in the economy, not just
0:09:31 > 0:09:36keep cutting, cutting. Soon there'll be nothing left to cut.
0:09:36 > 0:09:40How do you get growth? How you get growth is to stimulate it. I would
0:09:40 > 0:09:46love to see in Scotland that we controlled our own corporation tax.
0:09:46 > 0:09:50I would love to attract the businesses here so that we can
0:09:50 > 0:09:58attract businesses, create jobs, as Margaret Curran said, paying people
0:09:58 > 0:10:02to sit idle is lunancy. The woman here. You look at the unemployment
0:10:02 > 0:10:08figures. I am a qualified nurse who is unemployed. I looked today on
0:10:08 > 0:10:13the Scottish website for jobs, there are seven jobs for the whole
0:10:13 > 0:10:16of Scotland. How does Mr Salmond - you were saying you want to look at
0:10:16 > 0:10:26building hospitals etc, how are you going to staff those when you are
0:10:26 > 0:10:26
0:10:26 > 0:10:30not not prepared to employ any nurses? Michael Forsythe. I think
0:10:30 > 0:10:34it's crazy - sorry, Alex, we are going to disagree, it's crazy for
0:10:34 > 0:10:38me to be giving free prescriptions in Scotland when that money could
0:10:38 > 0:10:44be spent on employing more nurses and doctors in the health service.
0:10:44 > 0:10:48APPLAUSE. The man up there.
0:10:48 > 0:10:53We have youth unemployment rate in this country and everyone knows
0:10:53 > 0:10:58that it spells bad for the next five to ten years. What we need to
0:10:58 > 0:11:03do is start getting the youth employed so we have people working
0:11:03 > 0:11:06in five to ten years time. We have gone away from the VAT point.
0:11:06 > 0:11:11answer Michael directly, the reason we don't pay prescriptions in
0:11:11 > 0:11:15Scotland is because there was 6 hundred,000 people earning less
0:11:15 > 0:11:19than �16,000 having to pay prescriptions over �7. When we are
0:11:19 > 0:11:24talking about pressure on family budgets it's bad enough every price
0:11:24 > 0:11:30on every good in shop is going up, gas bills going up, but when you
0:11:30 > 0:11:33have evidence of people having to choose which prescription they need
0:11:33 > 0:11:37for their family it's proper to act on that. We have a target of
0:11:37 > 0:11:41reducing senior management in the health service by 25% and if we can
0:11:41 > 0:11:47use that, then that's a good value for money in having prescriptions
0:11:47 > 0:11:51free in Scotland. Can I turn to the point Margaret made. In 2008, the
0:11:51 > 0:11:55Labour Government analysed the relative merits in creating jobs of
0:11:55 > 0:11:59cutting VAT on the one hand, and on the other hand, increasing capital
0:11:59 > 0:12:02investment, building in the economy and found for the same price with
0:12:03 > 0:12:06the same costs you generated twice as many jobs through capital
0:12:06 > 0:12:10investment as you did for cutting VAT. Now that was the Labour
0:12:10 > 0:12:13Government's own figures in 2008. You might say they've got other
0:12:13 > 0:12:18figures wrong in 2008 but nonetheless, that analysis holds. I
0:12:18 > 0:12:22have never seen a recovery in any economy, anywhere, which wasn't
0:12:22 > 0:12:25accompanied by a recovery in construction. You must get the
0:12:25 > 0:12:30construction sector moving, you must build things, you must get the
0:12:30 > 0:12:33economy moving. The man there. I don't mean to be
0:12:33 > 0:12:38the one that reminds the Government that they've just - where this
0:12:38 > 0:12:42programme is coming from, but it's put a significant tax on the energy
0:12:42 > 0:12:47sector and it does put a severe pressure on potential projects that
0:12:47 > 0:12:51are going on in the future. As a graduate engineer a job that was
0:12:51 > 0:12:55potentially very secure for a long time might become unsecure in the
0:12:55 > 0:12:59way to come. You are cutting taxes for businesses, it's not for all
0:12:59 > 0:13:04businesses, it's not across the board. We may have have time to get
0:13:04 > 0:13:07to that point later on. The woman there. Given the VAT is a temporary
0:13:07 > 0:13:12measure to cut it back, do you think it's a short-term fix rather
0:13:12 > 0:13:17thapbg a long -- rather than a long-term solution to the problems?
0:13:17 > 0:13:21I don't know if I was being honest, hopefully it's a short-term fix and
0:13:21 > 0:13:25it may not be needed long-term. But what we need to have is a long
0:13:25 > 0:13:31kwrepl solution to the problems of our economy. If I could return to
0:13:31 > 0:13:34the point I was trying to - rudely interskwrebgt and -- interskwrebgt
0:13:34 > 0:13:36about the point where we are and why we are here, this is
0:13:36 > 0:13:38undoubtedly and international crisis and we have to appreciate
0:13:38 > 0:13:45that, we have to understand the scale of the challenge that is in
0:13:45 > 0:13:49front of us. This wasn't made in Downing Street. This was made in
0:13:49 > 0:13:53Wall Street. Other countries are facing exactly what we are facing.
0:13:53 > 0:13:57Bear with me. You can't just blame the last Labour Government, that's
0:13:57 > 0:14:00far too easy. The challenge to our economy, getting young people back
0:14:00 > 0:14:04to work as the gentlemen said, making sure we have nurses, getting
0:14:04 > 0:14:08schools built and I will lobby Alex so get more schools in my
0:14:08 > 0:14:12constituency because the SNP haven't built any in the time
0:14:12 > 0:14:16they've been in power in my constituency. It's a mixture of
0:14:16 > 0:14:20things, but my core point would be you have to use the skills of the
0:14:20 > 0:14:24people you have got. Throwing people on the dole, as we know too
0:14:24 > 0:14:27sadly in Scotland, is a false economy. Get people back to work,
0:14:27 > 0:14:30that's what we need to do. You are right. Nobody wants to see anybody
0:14:30 > 0:14:35on the dole at all. But we have actually got to make sure the
0:14:35 > 0:14:39economy is working so that we can create jobs, real jobs, not false
0:14:39 > 0:14:43jobs with false promises as Labour were doing with the Future Jobs
0:14:43 > 0:14:53Fund under the previous regime. Come on... The Tories think nurses
0:14:53 > 0:14:54
0:14:54 > 0:14:59Margaret Curran, one of the rules of the programme is to allow the
0:14:59 > 0:15:03others to speak! Bearing in mind the economic crisis, that was a
0:15:03 > 0:15:08factor. It was exacerbated by the last Government, the way in which
0:15:08 > 0:15:13it spent money as if it were going out of fashion. We are now picking
0:15:13 > 0:15:18up the pieces. If we don't do it correctly, we will be in a mess for
0:15:18 > 0:15:22a very long time to come. If the SNP are confident, that the
0:15:22 > 0:15:27people of Scotland want independence, why not set a date
0:15:27 > 0:15:31for the vote? APPLAUSE. It seems to be a one for you, Alex
0:15:31 > 0:15:38Salmond if you are so confident that the people of Scotland want
0:15:38 > 0:15:42independence, why not set a date? During the election campaign a few
0:15:42 > 0:15:46weeks ago, when asked when the referendum should be, I said well
0:15:46 > 0:15:51into the second half of the term. Given that occasionally,
0:15:51 > 0:15:55politicians are criticised for not doing as they said in an election
0:15:55 > 0:16:02campaign, I thought I would provide a refreshing change and stake to
0:16:02 > 0:16:05what -- stick to what I offered the people during the campaign. That
0:16:06 > 0:16:10seemed to attract support. The other reason that this is important.
0:16:10 > 0:16:14It touches on what we have been speaking about. That is that I seem
0:16:14 > 0:16:19the immediate priority as to getting the economic powers into
0:16:19 > 0:16:23the Scotland Bill. To get economic teeth, like the point that Sir Tom
0:16:23 > 0:16:26Hunter made about Corporation Tax control. Levers to enhance growth
0:16:26 > 0:16:30in the economy, to respond to the economic crisis, to get the
0:16:30 > 0:16:36Scottish economy moving. That is the immediate priority. Then we
0:16:36 > 0:16:38have the question of independence. Is it not better to do that as an
0:16:38 > 0:16:43independent nation? I think it would be.
0:16:43 > 0:16:48Why not have it? Or don't you think that they will win? We are laying
0:16:49 > 0:16:53out the immediate priority. I know you are saying that. People
0:16:53 > 0:16:56have watched your victory and been gobsmacked by it. You know. They
0:16:56 > 0:16:59are gobsmacked. The system was set up to stop what
0:17:00 > 0:17:03happened, you got the majority. The whole construction as the Labour
0:17:03 > 0:17:07Party said when they invented the system, it would not happen. You
0:17:07 > 0:17:13swept the board and now people think, in the rest of the UK as
0:17:13 > 0:17:17well, that the SNP are riding high, why not go the whole hog and have
0:17:17 > 0:17:21their independence referendum? Because one of the reasons we swept
0:17:22 > 0:17:25the board perhaps, David, apart from appearing in Question Time
0:17:25 > 0:17:30rand the election campaign, but one of the reasons we swept the board
0:17:30 > 0:17:36is that people believed we would do what we said to do in the campaign.
0:17:36 > 0:17:40If I came after winning a victory that was not expected by
0:17:40 > 0:17:45commentators and perhaps even slightly exceeding the SNP's
0:17:45 > 0:17:50expectations, if I said we have a majority, we can do what we like,
0:17:50 > 0:17:55to reverse the timetable I set out in the election campaign, the
0:17:55 > 0:17:59questions would be why didn't you do what you said in the election
0:17:59 > 0:18:04campaign? I think given the experience of the Liberal Democrats,
0:18:04 > 0:18:08that would have been an unwise policy, so let's concentrate on
0:18:08 > 0:18:11getting the economic powers and then let the Scottish people
0:18:11 > 0:18:18express their opinion on a Scottish future.
0:18:18 > 0:18:23George Foreman, does that -- Michael Forsythe, what do you
0:18:23 > 0:18:29think? I think it is balderdash. The reason he does not want to set
0:18:29 > 0:18:35a date, he knows if he had a referendum now, he would lose it.
0:18:35 > 0:18:40APPLAUSE. So he want wants to spend five
0:18:40 > 0:18:45years creating grievances and aggros, in the hope that it ruments
0:18:45 > 0:18:50in Scotland breaking up the union. I don't believe that Scotland will
0:18:50 > 0:18:53vote to break up the union. The reason that people voted for Alex,
0:18:53 > 0:18:58he has run a competent administration in the Scottish
0:18:59 > 0:19:03Parliament. It was the choice of having an SNP administration and
0:19:03 > 0:19:09the Labour administration, people looked at the record and they voted
0:19:09 > 0:19:13SNP. They expect him to implement the manifesto promise iss. Now,
0:19:13 > 0:19:19there is �5 billion of promise iss there, where he is getting the
0:19:19 > 0:19:24money from, I don't know. If he is able to deliver all of the things
0:19:24 > 0:19:29he promised and to do all of the things that he said, I may be
0:19:29 > 0:19:36tempted to vote for him myself! He has found a way of turning led that
0:19:36 > 0:19:40gold. He is a latter day alchemist. The truth is that he knows he would
0:19:40 > 0:19:44lose it. There is a serious point, it is damaging to Scotland's
0:19:44 > 0:19:47interest to have this uncertainty hanging over our heads as to
0:19:47 > 0:19:52whether we are to remain a part of the United Kingdom, what is the
0:19:52 > 0:19:56position on tax, finances, what is the position on defence, the rest,
0:19:56 > 0:20:01so the sooner that we end the uncertainty and get on with the
0:20:01 > 0:20:09business of creating jobs and prosperity, the better. So Alex,
0:20:09 > 0:20:14give the people the say. You spent the last Parliament from being
0:20:14 > 0:20:17prevented for creating a referendum. Could you instigate a referendum?
0:20:17 > 0:20:22Alex does not have the power in the Scottish Parliament to create a
0:20:22 > 0:20:28binding referendum. So, why are you blaming him?
0:20:28 > 0:20:31Westminster could do it? APPLAUSE. Because he is busy telling us,
0:20:31 > 0:20:37through the back door, that if we had a referendum, if we legislated
0:20:37 > 0:20:40in the Scotland Bill, which I will vote for, happily table an
0:20:40 > 0:20:45amendment in the Lord's, to create the opportunity for Scotland to
0:20:45 > 0:20:49have a say, he would boycott it and use his powers to make it not
0:20:49 > 0:20:55happen. If Alex wants to suss did - - ask us to do it, of course we
0:20:55 > 0:20:59will do it, but he won't as he is afraid.
0:20:59 > 0:21:03I agree with what Lord Forsythe is saying regarding the SNP but the
0:21:03 > 0:21:08more you go on about it, if you don't get the chance, people are
0:21:08 > 0:21:14going to take you for a weak leader. You are not leading Scotland.
0:21:14 > 0:21:18So, if he doesn't do it by the end of Parliament? Yes. You are banging
0:21:18 > 0:21:24on it about, Scotland want it, or they say that they do, but without
0:21:24 > 0:21:29the vote you will never know. I think that Michael Forsythe is
0:21:29 > 0:21:32right. You are ducking the issue as you know you will lose it. The
0:21:32 > 0:21:38reason is because you have not confronted the Scottish people with
0:21:39 > 0:21:43all of the arguments. We would have to set up our own ambassadors and
0:21:43 > 0:21:49embassies throughout the world to represent us. We would need a
0:21:49 > 0:21:54Defence Force, our own Immigration Service, our own customs service,
0:21:54 > 0:21:58would we be members of the European Union or not? What about the
0:21:59 > 0:22:03currency? Would you like a vote this week? I would like the
0:22:03 > 0:22:13procedure for the vote to begin as soon as possible because I want all
0:22:13 > 0:22:14
0:22:14 > 0:22:17of these issues to come out. APPLAUSE.
0:22:17 > 0:22:22The Secretary of State for Scotland said the other day that there would
0:22:22 > 0:22:25need to be two referendums in his opinion. One, Alex Salmond's
0:22:25 > 0:22:29referendum from Holyrood and one from Westminster actually to make
0:22:29 > 0:22:34it a law. Is that your view? think that I demonstrated the
0:22:34 > 0:22:38danger to be drawing into considering hypotheticals.
0:22:38 > 0:22:42The uncertainties that everybody has picked on in the room, the key
0:22:42 > 0:22:47things that none of us can know, what territory we are going into
0:22:47 > 0:22:50when Alex will not set out the proposition. Is it a fully
0:22:50 > 0:22:55independent country? Independence light where we share defence bases
0:22:55 > 0:23:00but have an independent foreign policy? Are we talking about a
0:23:00 > 0:23:04confederation or whatever it will look like? Will there be one, two,
0:23:04 > 0:23:07three questions on the ballot paper? Michael is right, the
0:23:07 > 0:23:12uncertainty of this is damaging and it is distraction from getting on
0:23:12 > 0:23:16with the real job, that is fixing the Scottish economy. Besides that,
0:23:16 > 0:23:21it is leading to great economic uncertainty as the businesses begin
0:23:21 > 0:23:25to decide where to place investment, to put more in Scotland, elsewhere,
0:23:25 > 0:23:28this is a big question. Why not, as the coalition
0:23:28 > 0:23:32government, you know you have a government in Scotland to have a
0:23:32 > 0:23:37referendum it is a matter for the whole of the United Kingdom, why
0:23:37 > 0:23:42don't you say you will call a referendum, that these are the
0:23:42 > 0:23:46terms on which you think Scotland could have independence and let's
0:23:46 > 0:23:52have a vote and forget Alex Salmond and do it for the people of
0:23:52 > 0:23:58Scotland. You could do it legally? It would be discourteous to Alex.
0:23:58 > 0:24:03I'm not meaning out of sight, out of mind... But we want Scotland to
0:24:03 > 0:24:07remain a part of the United Kingdom. Then why not have a referendum to
0:24:07 > 0:24:11test that? Alex can bring that forward. He should bring it forward.
0:24:11 > 0:24:18Why don't you do it? You said it was your view that the United
0:24:18 > 0:24:22Kingdom should stick together, the SNPs say no, why not you instigate
0:24:22 > 0:24:27a referendum and find out what the answer is? I want to get on with my
0:24:27 > 0:24:30job, on delivering through the Scotland Bill. Serious powers to
0:24:30 > 0:24:34help Alex's colleagues to ensure the accountability of the
0:24:34 > 0:24:39Parliament, to the Scottish people is in the hands and that they get
0:24:39 > 0:24:43real powers. That is what we are getting on with, the real job of
0:24:43 > 0:24:49getting the powers. We know ethere will be a referendum
0:24:49 > 0:24:52in five years, so why not use the Scotland Bill or your powers to set
0:24:52 > 0:24:56up an independent commission to address the points that were made
0:24:56 > 0:25:03by the gentleman in the front there, what the kenss of independence
0:25:03 > 0:25:07would be for the whole of the United Kingdom. -- what the
0:25:07 > 0:25:11consequences of independence would be for the whole of the United
0:25:11 > 0:25:15Kingdom? There is a question there. I think that we do not need
0:25:15 > 0:25:20commissions to elus this, but we have to examine the costs. Alex
0:25:20 > 0:25:25says he wants the referendum. If he is confident, let him get on with
0:25:25 > 0:25:30Sir Tom Hunter? What is your view of this? As a Scot who spends a lot
0:25:30 > 0:25:34of time in London I'm fed up with people down there saying how can
0:25:34 > 0:25:41you guys, no tuition fees for universities? Free prescriptions,
0:25:41 > 0:25:49free care for the elderly, we are subsidising you, that grates with
0:25:49 > 0:25:53Why? Are you saying it is not true or is it true or is it false?
0:25:53 > 0:26:00don't think it is true. Why not? I will come to that in a
0:26:00 > 0:26:04minute. I have a sneaking suspicion that Alex and his team have some
0:26:04 > 0:26:11Machiavellian plot that says they will make the rest of the UK so fed
0:26:11 > 0:26:17up with us, they are going to put uts out. I saw an opinion poll --
0:26:18 > 0:26:24to put us out. I saw an opinion poll that said that more people in
0:26:24 > 0:26:28England want independence for Scotland than the Scots themselves!
0:26:28 > 0:26:33We need if we have have the power to spend. I agree with no tuition
0:26:33 > 0:26:40fees, I think it is a right for your ability to learn, rather than
0:26:40 > 0:26:45your ability to pay. If we make that decision... APPLAUSE.
0:26:45 > 0:26:49If we make that decision, that's great, but we also need the power
0:26:49 > 0:26:53to raise the money because at the present time we can spend it, but
0:26:53 > 0:26:57we are not accountable for raising it. That's why we are seen as
0:26:57 > 0:27:02somebody with their hand out for the Barnetkm formula and the block
0:27:02 > 0:27:10grant and that is not good enough. Why do you say, as a matter of
0:27:10 > 0:27:17interest, for a factual point, in England getting �8,531 a head, and
0:27:17 > 0:27:20Scotland getting �9,940 a head, that it is not true that England is
0:27:21 > 0:27:26subsidising Scotland? It depends on if you believe that the North Sea
0:27:26 > 0:27:30oil is Scotland or the UK's or where it lies? Or if you believe
0:27:30 > 0:27:35the Treasury? I don't know if anybody believes the Treasury, to
0:27:35 > 0:27:39be honest. If Scotland did actually vote for
0:27:39 > 0:27:42independence, would the Conservative and the Liberal
0:27:42 > 0:27:47Democrats block it? Would they ignore the people of Scotland
0:27:47 > 0:27:50again? No. I believe in any referendum. We would look for a
0:27:50 > 0:27:55decisive outcome. I believe this that it would be that Scotland
0:27:55 > 0:28:01decides to remain a part of the United Kingdom. What would that be?
0:28:01 > 0:28:07Would you set the bar so high where you would say that 75 or 80% had to
0:28:07 > 0:28:11vote? We have said it is for Alex to bring forward the referendum.
0:28:11 > 0:28:17It is for citizens of Scotland to ask what the questions should be,
0:28:17 > 0:28:22when they will be, and when they will come. If the people of
0:28:22 > 0:28:28Scotland decide, they may decide not to, or decide to go for it, if
0:28:28 > 0:28:31they decide to vote for it, will you stop it? I don't think it would
0:28:31 > 0:28:35be right for the coalition government to bring forward
0:28:35 > 0:28:40policies for the referendum of Scotland. I have to acknowledge
0:28:40 > 0:28:43that. The SNP won the last election, conclusively. That tells us
0:28:43 > 0:28:47something about what Scottish people. I think that Scottish
0:28:47 > 0:28:51people want to have a conversation about their future. Now the SNP
0:28:51 > 0:28:55have said for some time that they believe in a referendum. That has
0:28:55 > 0:28:58been their policy. It was at the last election and the one before
0:28:59 > 0:29:03that. So they have a view about what the
0:29:03 > 0:29:08referendum should be about. Presumably they have thought
0:29:08 > 0:29:14through some of the issues that gentleman put so well.
0:29:14 > 0:29:19Bare with me, I have been so patient trying not to interup the
0:29:19 > 0:29:25other people. It equally does not mean you can go
0:29:25 > 0:29:27on! He is picking on me! So, I think that the issues that you put
0:29:27 > 0:29:31forward are significant. This is important for the future of
0:29:31 > 0:29:35Scotland. This goes to the heart about how we see ourselves, what
0:29:35 > 0:29:39our future is about. I would rather have said that the family of the
0:29:39 > 0:29:43nations is the United Kingdom. For that to develop and to have an
0:29:43 > 0:29:51assertive Scotland, but we have to know the details. We have to get
0:29:51 > 0:30:01into the details. A question from Colin Currie.
0:30:01 > 0:30:03
0:30:03 > 0:30:08Yes and I know a lot of people say - talking about independence a lot
0:30:08 > 0:30:12of people say the country couldn't stand on its own two feet, it
0:30:12 > 0:30:15couldn't manage economically but I have incredible confidence that
0:30:15 > 0:30:19England would manage just fine. English self-Government, because
0:30:19 > 0:30:24they're a great nation for great history and I would think would do
0:30:24 > 0:30:26just fine. A number of points. I am going to answer you, David, that's
0:30:26 > 0:30:33unconventional but I am going to do it. You were talking about Treasury
0:30:33 > 0:30:37figures, it's true that Treasury figures show that Scotland, - CSO
0:30:37 > 0:30:42analysis shows Scotland gets 9% of expenditure of 8.7% of the
0:30:42 > 0:30:46population, the same figures show Scotland generally gets 10% of the
0:30:46 > 0:30:49revenue of the United Kingdom, we general rate more revenue. Despite
0:30:49 > 0:30:53your faith in the London Treasury, I think one of the great lies in
0:30:53 > 0:30:56life along with the cheque's in the post and darling I will respect you
0:30:56 > 0:31:00in the morning is I am from the London Treasury and I really want
0:31:00 > 0:31:04to help Scotland. If London Treasury didn't think Scotland was
0:31:04 > 0:31:09a great deal they wouldn't be so anxious to hang on to us and hang
0:31:09 > 0:31:13on to all that revenue. So, let's take the gentleman's question which
0:31:13 > 0:31:17I thought was a very good one, I think that the right process to go
0:31:17 > 0:31:22through is to follow what we said we would do in the election, which
0:31:22 > 0:31:28received a strong powerful mandate. I am not convinced by people in the
0:31:28 > 0:31:33Conservative and Liberal parties who are fanatically against having
0:31:33 > 0:31:37a referendum and - let's stick to what we said in the election
0:31:37 > 0:31:40campaign. Publish a White Paper which will set out the prospectus
0:31:40 > 0:31:43facing the people, our belief of what independence means in the
0:31:43 > 0:31:47modern world, asking all the questions you asked, answering all
0:31:47 > 0:31:53the questions you asked and more and then ask the people to vote yes
0:31:53 > 0:31:57or no to that proposition. Is that an unusual thing to do in the world,
0:31:57 > 0:32:0340 countries have managed it in the last century, 20 in the last 40
0:32:03 > 0:32:07years or so. It happens once every two years around the world. You
0:32:07 > 0:32:11know what, not one of these cases they had to ask two referendums,
0:32:11 > 0:32:14one was never for every other country and I believe one will be
0:32:15 > 0:32:23enough are to Scotland -- for Scotland. Thank you very much. We
0:32:23 > 0:32:33must go on, time is not on our side. If you are following us on Twitter
0:32:33 > 0:32:38
0:32:38 > 0:32:48A question now please from Audrey Anderson.
0:32:48 > 0:32:49
0:32:49 > 0:32:56Should assisted dying be legalised in Britain?
0:32:56 > 0:33:00A question no doubt inspired by the film that the BBC showed of Terry
0:33:00 > 0:33:05Pratchett watching somebody in a film called Choosing To Die,
0:33:05 > 0:33:11watching somebody kill himself in Switzerland. Margaret Curran?
0:33:11 > 0:33:17never saw the film and I feel I should see it and will probably
0:33:17 > 0:33:20make myself see it, I feel perhaps I have to. I didn't agree with
0:33:20 > 0:33:24Margaret McDonald's legislation in front of the Scottish parliament
0:33:24 > 0:33:30because it's such a difficult issue... You had a proposal here?
0:33:30 > 0:33:33Yes, and there was a members bill and we all had a view on that, an
0:33:33 > 0:33:37opportunity to express a view because you have be so careful with
0:33:37 > 0:33:41all the safeguards around this. If I was very honest with you, I would
0:33:41 > 0:33:46say I can see arguments strongly on both sides. When you hear the
0:33:46 > 0:33:51testimony of people who are going through extraordinary illnesses and
0:33:51 > 0:33:55hear their words and not wanting their relatives to be persecuted,
0:33:55 > 0:33:59then you can understand why they feel that. On the other hand, I
0:33:59 > 0:34:03worry greatly about the need for safeguards and about some people
0:34:03 > 0:34:06under pressure and I also heard people say they feel as if somehow
0:34:06 > 0:34:10elderly people who are perhaps very old, they're under pressure perhaps.
0:34:10 > 0:34:14Are you for or against? I am not against, but I wouldn't want to
0:34:14 > 0:34:18dismiss and feel an obligation to hear the testimony of people and
0:34:18 > 0:34:23continue to listen... You are not against, there you are for? Sorry.
0:34:23 > 0:34:30I am not trying to play a game here. Nor am I. I want to know what you
0:34:30 > 0:34:34think. On the basis I don't think the safeguards are strong enough to
0:34:34 > 0:34:41prevent abuse and give people proper reassurances... Is now is
0:34:41 > 0:34:47not the time? I would not dismiss the arguments. Tom Hunter.
0:34:47 > 0:34:53answer to your question, in my opinion, is yes. A recent poll
0:34:53 > 0:34:58actually, 86% of those polled were in favour of it. I think it takes
0:34:58 > 0:35:05me back to the Daniel James example, a young rugby player who became
0:35:05 > 0:35:11paralysed from the chest down, and he wanted to end his life. His
0:35:11 > 0:35:18parents didn't want him to end his life. He finally convinced them and
0:35:19 > 0:35:24they went to Switzerland and Keir Starmer did not prosecute on that
0:35:24 > 0:35:30occasion. All that any of us want is a dignified exit and we need
0:35:30 > 0:35:35safeguards, of course we do, but if this young man has decided that he
0:35:35 > 0:35:45wants to exit the world, what right has anybody else to tell him no,
0:35:45 > 0:35:45
0:35:45 > 0:35:50you are wrong? APPLAUSE.
0:35:50 > 0:35:53I agree with Mr Hunter, it's a dying shame, excuse the pun, that a
0:35:53 > 0:35:56person from Britain has to travel all the way to Switzerland to have
0:35:56 > 0:36:01a dignified death. I am a doctor and I see patients dying all the
0:36:01 > 0:36:07time, unfortunately. I think if a person is sane and is competent and
0:36:07 > 0:36:12has made a decision and that is the safeguard being discussed, then
0:36:12 > 0:36:16that person should be allowed a dignified exit and not have to go
0:36:16 > 0:36:19all the way to Switzerland, because not everyone can afford that, let
0:36:19 > 0:36:25alone have the indignity of travelling all the way. Would you
0:36:25 > 0:36:30as a matter of fact, allow assisted suicide for people who were deeply
0:36:30 > 0:36:33depressed as well as people who actually had physical illnesses
0:36:33 > 0:36:36which is what is allowed in Dignitas? In that particular
0:36:36 > 0:36:42instance good medical practice would be that if the person had
0:36:42 > 0:36:47made a decision when they were competent and we have to decide the
0:36:47 > 0:36:50capacity of the patient to make such a decision. In that case
0:36:50 > 0:36:54depression may be a reason why we shouldn't allow such things. I
0:36:54 > 0:36:58think it is a bit insulting and patronising to say we can't have
0:36:58 > 0:37:04the right save guards. Medicine is not the same as it used to be even
0:37:04 > 0:37:0950 years ago, tremendous advances. People dying of cancer don't die
0:37:09 > 0:37:17painfully or in distress. I think it is very bad and difficult to see
0:37:17 > 0:37:20patients who want to pass away and yet they have to linger on and have
0:37:20 > 0:37:25indignity towards the end. We have seen what's been happening in care
0:37:25 > 0:37:28homes, for instance, and that's another thing we need to consider.
0:37:28 > 0:37:33APPLAUSE. The woman in the middle there.
0:37:33 > 0:37:39In terms of patients who have depression, bipolar disorder, any
0:37:39 > 0:37:44mental health issue, if they never feel they are going in a -- in a
0:37:44 > 0:37:47sound mind what right do you have to say no, you can't have assisted
0:37:47 > 0:37:52death, because if they never feel right in their mind and yet they
0:37:52 > 0:37:56still feel this constant want to end their life, there's no need for
0:37:56 > 0:38:00them to have to suffer through that. If they're not of a sound mind that
0:38:00 > 0:38:06should have no relevance. If they want to die, they should have that
0:38:06 > 0:38:16right. Michael Moore, do you agree?
0:38:16 > 0:38:18
0:38:18 > 0:38:20don't. The simple answer to the proposition is no, I am not in
0:38:20 > 0:38:23favour of assisted dying legislation, but that's not to
0:38:23 > 0:38:25ignore the very complex issues that have already been debated here on
0:38:25 > 0:38:28the panel today. I hope it's not patronising or otherwise to suggest
0:38:28 > 0:38:32we all need to have confidence in the save guards. I understand the
0:38:32 > 0:38:36medical profession as you rightly say, has changed out of recognition
0:38:36 > 0:38:44over the last ten years, never mind the last 50 and we are confronted
0:38:44 > 0:38:50as a society by challenges about the longevity of people that
0:38:50 > 0:38:57weren't there sometime ago and we are all having to rekpf rubbish
0:38:57 > 0:39:00rubbish re-- rekpf examine -- reexamine. We have to be receptive
0:39:00 > 0:39:03to thinking about this and I haven't seen the film but I will
0:39:03 > 0:39:08make sure I do. You, Sir. With the cost involved in
0:39:08 > 0:39:15going to Switzerland to have this assisted suicide, and not allowing
0:39:15 > 0:39:19people to do it at home, are we not going to end up instead of having a
0:39:19 > 0:39:25ttwo-tier health service, a two- tier death service? The woman there.
0:39:25 > 0:39:28I am a nurse and I would like people to - doctors and nurses to
0:39:28 > 0:39:32be consulted on this, because any doctor or nurse that I have spoken
0:39:32 > 0:39:35to would not be happy to end a patient's life, that's not what we
0:39:35 > 0:39:38are trained for and not what we would be happy to do and the
0:39:38 > 0:39:43gentleman that said that he was a doctor who said that was what he
0:39:43 > 0:39:45would be happy to do, I think is very much in the minority of the
0:39:45 > 0:39:49medical nursing professions. Dignitas do have a doctor, of
0:39:49 > 0:39:55course. I think there's a lot of people here who are not happy to do
0:39:55 > 0:39:59that. We are trained to do no harm to patients. The woman behind you.
0:39:59 > 0:40:04Everyone deserves a right to die the way they want to die if they're
0:40:04 > 0:40:11in terrible pain, if they have an illness which can't be cured. I
0:40:11 > 0:40:15don't think it's fair for a Government, a court of law to
0:40:15 > 0:40:22decide that person can't then go forward and do the dignified thing
0:40:22 > 0:40:25in their own homes surrounded by their own family and with the
0:40:25 > 0:40:30doctors' knowledge, safe that they're not being bullied into
0:40:30 > 0:40:38something they don't wish to do, but doing something in a dignified
0:40:38 > 0:40:42way they want to do. Alex Salmond. It's an incredibly difficult issue.
0:40:42 > 0:40:46I saw the programme and the reason I saw the programme is that I
0:40:46 > 0:40:50wanted to see it because we debated it in the Scots parliament, as
0:40:50 > 0:40:54Margaret says and it may well be debated again in the Scots
0:40:54 > 0:40:58parliament. So it's very much in terms of legislation a pressing
0:40:58 > 0:41:02issue. I am against it. I think anybody who wants to see good
0:41:02 > 0:41:06arguments on this could consult on the internet the Scots parliament
0:41:06 > 0:41:10debate, led by Margaret McDonald because the range of arguments we
0:41:10 > 0:41:14heard from the audience tonight and others were deployed, and deployed
0:41:14 > 0:41:19very well on both sides of the argument. Perhaps for me it
0:41:19 > 0:41:24crystalises on what the nurse and the doctor had to say. The nurse
0:41:24 > 0:41:32said medical profession - there's a range of views in the profession. I
0:41:32 > 0:41:36do accept your point. There are a lot of systems in place that do
0:41:36 > 0:41:40help people to have a dignified and good death and absolutely there are
0:41:40 > 0:41:45people who don't, but that's what people strive to do and maybe the
0:41:45 > 0:41:48money could go into better training to have that. Well, I was going to
0:41:48 > 0:41:53accept your point about the principle of no harm. That's quite
0:41:54 > 0:41:57difficult for many people to reconcile in the medical profession
0:41:57 > 0:42:00with the concept of assisted dying. That was one of the strong
0:42:00 > 0:42:04arguments that came through in the debate. If I could say to the
0:42:04 > 0:42:10doctor who I know genuinely passionately believes in his
0:42:10 > 0:42:14opinion, that this question of when people decide was another point of
0:42:14 > 0:42:20great strength in the debate. You said people would have to be
0:42:20 > 0:42:24rationale, but what happens if they change their mind? It would be
0:42:24 > 0:42:28possible as they get near the time of death, say well, when I was
0:42:28 > 0:42:32rationale perhaps I was too pessimistic about things. I don't
0:42:32 > 0:42:37make the point lightly, this was a matter we looked at in great detail
0:42:37 > 0:42:40and eventually the parliament by a majority decided that we couldn't
0:42:40 > 0:42:46see the save guards there that would apply in every case and they
0:42:47 > 0:42:56would have to apply in every case to justify legalisation. The case
0:42:57 > 0:43:03
0:43:03 > 0:43:08in the film, the man who was killing himself, was absolutely
0:43:08 > 0:43:15absolutely compus men tis. This is an issue I thought about quite hard.
0:43:15 > 0:43:18I don't know what I think. Rather like Margaret, I worry about the
0:43:18 > 0:43:20safeguards and I don't think Margaret was thinking about
0:43:20 > 0:43:26safeguards from doctors, I think she was thinking about safeguards
0:43:26 > 0:43:34that might arise from families or very elderly people might - as they
0:43:34 > 0:43:38often say, I am a burden to you, and it might encourage people to
0:43:38 > 0:43:46encourage people to kill themselves prematurely. The reason I thought
0:43:46 > 0:43:50about it quite hard is my mother died last month from a terminal
0:43:50 > 0:43:54illness and - here in the northeast, and what was remarkable, because
0:43:54 > 0:43:57when you are told that someone's cancer, your immediate thought is
0:43:57 > 0:44:01are they going to suffer, how long is it going to be, is this going to
0:44:01 > 0:44:09be terrible? The thing that really impressed me, the point made by the
0:44:09 > 0:44:14lady over there, was just how fantastic the care which is
0:44:14 > 0:44:23provided by the nursing and doctors profession.
0:44:23 > 0:44:27And they are able to manage pain in a way that was not possible many,
0:44:27 > 0:44:32many years ago. So on balance I'm not persuaded that we can have a
0:44:32 > 0:44:38right to die that might not be open to abuse and might not put pressure
0:44:38 > 0:44:43on families. But at the same time, if I think of
0:44:43 > 0:44:48myself, if I thought I were to suffer from dementia and not know
0:44:48 > 0:44:54who my family are, I'm thinking might that be an option for me. So
0:44:54 > 0:44:58it is a very, very difficult issue. As Margaret said, it is trying to
0:44:58 > 0:45:01balance the safeguard issues, but we should be grateful to the
0:45:01 > 0:45:08developments that have gone on in the hospice movement and in our
0:45:08 > 0:45:11health service in helping people to cope with these dreadful terminal
0:45:11 > 0:45:21illnesses, which have been magnificent, and have made things
0:45:21 > 0:45:26
0:45:26 > 0:45:31very much easier. Also, the organisations like the Marie Cure
0:45:31 > 0:45:36Cancer Care and MacMillan. They have made the experience for
0:45:36 > 0:45:41families much less horrendous than it might otherwise be.
0:45:41 > 0:45:46A couple of more points. Briefly if you would. It is not
0:45:46 > 0:45:49just all about terminal care. It is care for people who have had severe
0:45:49 > 0:45:54strokes, things like that, they could live for a long, long time
0:45:54 > 0:46:00but don't get the support that you get in terminal illnesses.
0:46:00 > 0:46:04Your view on the issue of assisted killing? I personally would not
0:46:04 > 0:46:09want to live for years and years with a really bad quality of life.
0:46:09 > 0:46:14I would like the option of assisted suicide.
0:46:14 > 0:46:19If a person chooses if they want to end their life, is it not better
0:46:19 > 0:46:24for them to end in a dignified American with the help of the
0:46:24 > 0:46:33professionals as opposed to an overdose or are a badly done
0:46:33 > 0:46:37hanging? APPLAUSE. This question is relevant to where
0:46:37 > 0:46:42we are, the oil capital of the UK, Aberdeen.
0:46:42 > 0:46:46Can George Osborne propose the proposed tax on the North Sea oil
0:46:46 > 0:46:51profits smart when it is estimated that it will cost this region in
0:46:51 > 0:46:59excress of 15,000 jobs? This was the Chancellor of the Exchequer
0:46:59 > 0:47:05speakingen ot BBC? APPLAUSE. -- speaking on the BBC? APPLAUSE.
0:47:05 > 0:47:09He said that he had restkprinted thing ace round tax, he --
0:47:09 > 0:47:14redistributed things around tax and cut fuel duty.
0:47:14 > 0:47:20Michael Moore, you are here for the Government, was he right? This is a
0:47:20 > 0:47:23hard place to make the arguments, but let me set the context. The
0:47:23 > 0:47:29context of this, we were talking earlier on about the hard-pressed
0:47:29 > 0:47:34way in which people are coping with inflation and everything else. The
0:47:34 > 0:47:37context of this was the prospect of us putting fuel duty up further to
0:47:37 > 0:47:42plug the holes in the public finances that we have been doing
0:47:42 > 0:47:46for the last year. We had a serious problem that people had seen the
0:47:46 > 0:47:51fuel prices in cars going up week after week after week for the past
0:47:51 > 0:47:56year. We made the choice that the economy of the United Kingdom as a
0:47:56 > 0:48:01whole, businesses across the UK, individual drivers across the UK,
0:48:01 > 0:48:04they needed a bit of support. So we decided rather than increasing the
0:48:04 > 0:48:13fuel duty as had been planned by the last Labour government, we
0:48:13 > 0:48:19would reduce it. When you say "we" you don't mean we
0:48:19 > 0:48:23in the sense that you were there, did he ask you, the Secretary of
0:48:23 > 0:48:27State for Scotland what the impact might be? The Treasury decides the
0:48:27 > 0:48:32budgets, that is right. This is the way it will always be. How many
0:48:32 > 0:48:37jobs will be lost as a result, the questioner said 15,000? The point
0:48:37 > 0:48:40is that across the economy as a whole we are doing what we can to
0:48:40 > 0:48:47help smaus businesses and large alike and individuals going about
0:48:47 > 0:48:50their daily business to cope with the extra pressures that are coming
0:48:50 > 0:48:54through. We are in Aberdeen, many people
0:48:54 > 0:49:00here may be working or depending on the oil industry, the question was
0:49:00 > 0:49:04that 15,000 jobs were to be lost, specifically by what the Chancellor
0:49:04 > 0:49:08did? I don't accept that figure. The key thing, the effect of this
0:49:08 > 0:49:12increase in tax will still be that after tax pro-ities for the oil
0:49:13 > 0:49:18companies will be higher than when they were planning investment four
0:49:18 > 0:49:22or five years ago, that there will be substantial profits for those
0:49:22 > 0:49:27oil companies and on some of the specific details we have to
0:49:27 > 0:49:33continue to talk to the industry, so looking at how to encourage
0:49:33 > 0:49:38investment in some of the more marginal gas fields, looking at a
0:49:38 > 0:49:43long-term stable tax structure for the oil... So no job losses? If
0:49:43 > 0:49:46they are making more profit, why lose the jobs? I believe that there
0:49:46 > 0:49:51will be continued significant investment in the North Sea gas
0:49:51 > 0:49:57sector for many years to come, so there should be.
0:49:57 > 0:50:02Sir Tom Hunter? I think it is a mistake. The North Sea oil and gas
0:50:02 > 0:50:08industry contributes �13 billion to the UK Treasury, 400,000 jobs. I'm
0:50:08 > 0:50:13for less tax, not more tax. Because I believe, then, that these oil
0:50:13 > 0:50:19companies will create more jobs. The fact of the matter is we live
0:50:19 > 0:50:24in a global world. What these investment decisions are made upon
0:50:24 > 0:50:28is fiscal certainty. This was a bolt from the blue for the North
0:50:28 > 0:50:33Sea industry it was a shock, not a pleasant one, either. Therefore,
0:50:33 > 0:50:38when these guys sit in their offices around the globe, whether
0:50:38 > 0:50:43it is Hewitton, Aberdeen, wherever it may be, they allocate capital.
0:50:43 > 0:50:48They now look at the UK and the North Sea and say there is an extra
0:50:48 > 0:50:51risk as there is no fiscal certainty. They might just allocate
0:50:51 > 0:50:55their capital to somewhere else in the world.
0:50:55 > 0:51:00Don't they have fiscal certainty with the increase in the 12%? It
0:51:00 > 0:51:03has gone from 20% to 32, they know where they are? They know where
0:51:03 > 0:51:07they are today, but my understanding is that the oil and
0:51:07 > 0:51:13the gas UK were given public and private assurances that nothing was
0:51:13 > 0:51:17to change and it did change. So it might change again? Yes. So
0:51:17 > 0:51:22when allocating their capital, the jobs may go elsewhere, there the
0:51:22 > 0:51:25short-term tax that the UK Treasury will receive from this doesn't make
0:51:25 > 0:51:35up for the long-term jobs that could be lost here.
0:51:35 > 0:51:39
0:51:40 > 0:51:45Following on from Tom's point, it was such a shock to the operators
0:51:45 > 0:51:49in the North Sea, was that Michael's boss, Nick Clegg was in
0:51:49 > 0:51:53be Dean before the budget was announced and was asked directly
0:51:53 > 0:51:58about the changes and did not come forward to say anything. Either he
0:51:58 > 0:52:05did not know about the budget or he did not want to discuss them in
0:52:05 > 0:52:09Aberdeen, with the senior management, the operators? Michael
0:52:09 > 0:52:15Moore, do you not believe that by reducing the fuel duty by a few
0:52:15 > 0:52:19pence on a majority of people, you have placed a huej burden on a
0:52:19 > 0:52:24minority of people in Aberdeen. Aberdeen is paying for cheaper
0:52:24 > 0:52:28petrol for everybody else? It is not just Aberdeen. Centrica, for
0:52:28 > 0:52:37example, they have said that they are not to take the gas from the
0:52:37 > 0:52:42Morecambe Bay... Field? That will have an impact. Look, I think we
0:52:42 > 0:52:45are paying far too much in tax. You have to work until this month
0:52:45 > 0:52:50before you start actually working for yourself from January to June
0:52:50 > 0:52:54it is going to the Government. One of the things we have to relearn in
0:52:54 > 0:53:00this country if you put up tax rates you get less revenue. The tax
0:53:00 > 0:53:05on the North Sea is a classic case of where the additional tax, yes,
0:53:05 > 0:53:10you get it in the short-term, but it results in less revenue.
0:53:10 > 0:53:17So this was a mistake by your Chancellor? Yes, it was a mistake.
0:53:17 > 0:53:22APPLAUSE. And also to say that it was going
0:53:22 > 0:53:27to be used, the revenues used to reduce the fuel duty, who is
0:53:27 > 0:53:31providing the fuel? The oil companies. I believe that the level
0:53:31 > 0:53:37of tax now is, perhaps somebody in the audience can help me, but it is
0:53:37 > 0:53:41getting on for 80%. You cannot expect people to take risky, long-
0:53:41 > 0:53:45term, investment decisions unless you have a stable and predictable
0:53:45 > 0:53:50tax structure that is fair. We need to learn that lesson again. We have
0:53:50 > 0:53:58to be more tax competitive. I understand the hall that George was
0:53:58 > 0:54:01in, but if he wanted to reduce fuel duty, he should have rused --
0:54:01 > 0:54:05reduced expenditure. We can see the coalition falling
0:54:05 > 0:54:09apart in front of our eyes. I am not minister.
0:54:09 > 0:54:17I know. But everybody agrees around this
0:54:17 > 0:54:22table, apart from Michael Moore. The lady that asked was
0:54:22 > 0:54:28economically smart. That was daft as it will cost 15,000 jobs and
0:54:28 > 0:54:33this was economically daft if it stays as it is, it will cost the UK
0:54:33 > 0:54:37Charles Clarker revenue over the next ten years, perhaps up to �10
0:54:37 > 0:54:42billion. I don't mind a tax structure that says when the oil
0:54:42 > 0:54:48prices are high, then those gathering in the profits should be
0:54:48 > 0:54:54taxed more, but this tax attacks the marginal fields, the oilfields,
0:54:54 > 0:54:57the difficult place. We have put in three proposals to the UK
0:54:57 > 0:55:05government. Michael Moore was not told by George Osborne, he was not
0:55:05 > 0:55:10even told by his colleague, Danny lngser, the chief Treasury
0:55:10 > 0:55:14executive, to explain this notion. We have put in three proposals to
0:55:14 > 0:55:18the UK Treasury to mitigate the impact of the tax. Given the damage
0:55:18 > 0:55:22that this one taxation decision by the UK Government has done, maybe
0:55:22 > 0:55:28oil and gas is too important an commodity for Scotland to be left
0:55:28 > 0:55:31to the machinations of the Westminster government? APPLAUSE.
0:55:31 > 0:55:36Margaret Curran, at the beginning of this programme, you said you
0:55:36 > 0:55:43were in favour of Ed Balls' prose als to cut VAT by 2.5%, do you
0:55:43 > 0:55:48think that this increase in tax was wrong? I will take great pleasure
0:55:48 > 0:55:52in quoting Michael in the next Treasury questions. I will happily
0:55:52 > 0:55:57quote you for once. I will certainly do that.
0:55:57 > 0:56:01I'm aware of the debate. The difference of the impact it will
0:56:02 > 0:56:07have on oil and gas, the real impact it will have. What concerned
0:56:07 > 0:56:13me about this, it was a rushed announcement. There was no
0:56:13 > 0:56:18consultation with the companies. They were caught unaware. I did not
0:56:18 > 0:56:22know the point about Nick Clegg and that is the hallmark of this
0:56:22 > 0:56:27government. Rushing legislation, creating mistakes, having to
0:56:27 > 0:56:33backtrack. So, why has not Ed Balls called for the repeal of this?
0:56:33 > 0:56:37will have a word with this. I don't know, he is focused on VAT, but I
0:56:37 > 0:56:43would agree with Michael. Everything is a tax cut. It is the
0:56:43 > 0:56:46only answer. You are faced with a cut... I did not say that.
0:56:47 > 0:56:50To Michael Moore, I don't think that a politician should be allowed
0:56:50 > 0:56:58to say that they don't accept the figures without an alternative
0:56:58 > 0:57:03figure. I hear it time and time again, it is a tireless cliche.
0:57:03 > 0:57:08There has been no decrease in petrol prices, where we stay the
0:57:08 > 0:57:11petrol is �1.40 a litre. It is cils considering that they are having
0:57:11 > 0:57:17their tax as well. Are you guilty of saying that you
0:57:17 > 0:57:22don't agree with the figures, and is this a political cliche were
0:57:22 > 0:57:30faced with embarrassments? I thought that you may say that.
0:57:30 > 0:57:40We will hear the full explanation later. Next week we are coming from
0:57:40 > 0:57:43
0:57:43 > 0:57:49Thank you all on the panel. Thank you, all of you for coming here to