:00:10. > :00:20.Thursday night with our audience in place, waiting to quiz our panel,
:00:20. > :00:25.
:00:25. > :00:30.And with me here in Londonderry, from the Cabinet, Northern Ireland
:00:30. > :00:33.Secretary, Owen Patterson, Labour's Shadow Health Minister, Diana
:00:33. > :00:37.Abbott, Sinn Fein's Martina Anderson, Northern Ireland Assembly
:00:37. > :00:42.member for this city, the deputy leader of the Democratic Unionists,
:00:42. > :00:52.Nigel Dodds and the business woman and investment manager, Nicola
:00:52. > :00:52.
:00:52. > :00:57.Horlick. APPLAUSE
:00:57. > :01:05.Right, we start with a question from Zoey Whitelaw, please.
:01:05. > :01:10.Was Ed Miliband right to call the strikes, "A mistake." Saying the
:01:10. > :01:15.strikes in the summer were a mistake - was he right, Owen
:01:15. > :01:24.Patterson? Yes, he was. When you think of the difficulties economies
:01:24. > :01:29.are facing around the world, from a meeting the American Finance
:01:29. > :01:37.Secretary is going to fly to, when you look at the problems here, the
:01:37. > :01:46.deficit we inherited, where we are borrowing �232,000 a minute, where
:01:46. > :01:52.we are having to spend �120 million a day on interest, I find it
:01:52. > :01:56.completely amazing that any serious people are considering striking,,
:01:56. > :02:01.when negotiations are going on. This is about the state of pensions
:02:01. > :02:05.and I am very happy that people are living ten years longer. The
:02:05. > :02:09.consequence of that is there is a cost. It is a question of fairness,
:02:09. > :02:14.because there are people watching this programme, in the private
:02:14. > :02:18.sector, who will be paying more to public pensions than they will to
:02:18. > :02:22.their own. The trade unions say there is no question of negotiation,
:02:22. > :02:28.the Government laid down the law and that's how it is to be and they
:02:28. > :02:33.will not negotiate over anything serious. I think that's incorrect.
:02:33. > :02:37.We've discussed this on many occasions. Francis Maude is
:02:37. > :02:43.handling this. He is clear, negotiations are going on. The idea
:02:43. > :02:49.of a 3% increase, or over 3%, that is negotiable, it could become a 1%
:02:49. > :02:53.increase in pensions, or is that fixed? I will not second-guess
:02:53. > :02:56.Government negotiators. A simple fact is, we're all in this together.
:02:56. > :03:01.There are those in the private sector who've had to work longer
:03:01. > :03:03.and take less. We have enormous respect for those who work for the
:03:03. > :03:09.public sector, particularly here in Northern Ireland, where you have
:03:09. > :03:14.people like the police and the fire brigade who are on the frontline.
:03:14. > :03:20.Everybody must contribute. The right to withdraw labour for a
:03:20. > :03:26.strike is a democratic right in any society.
:03:26. > :03:33.Whilst I do believe that, on many occasions, when one does go out on
:03:33. > :03:37.strike, that the end result is not always anyone who wins. With that
:03:37. > :03:43.said, I do support the right of workers. Do you believe they should
:03:43. > :03:47.strike over this issue of pensions? Are you with Ed Miliband saying
:03:47. > :03:52.they shouldn't? I'm not at all with Ed, with regards to this. I do
:03:52. > :03:57.believe they should ballot. I think they should respect the outcome.
:03:57. > :04:01.Diana Abbott, there's a curious thing here. Ed Miliband said, "I
:04:01. > :04:08.believe it was a mistake for strikes to happen." Ed Balls said,
:04:08. > :04:11."will you call off the strike?" he answered, no he wouldn't. Who is
:04:11. > :04:15.right? They have not had a ballot yet. The most important thing to
:04:15. > :04:21.remember, which no-one wants to talk about, is the unions have a
:04:21. > :04:26.just cause. They are being asked to work longer, pay in more and in
:04:26. > :04:29.some cases to get less. We're not talking about "fat cats", we are
:04:29. > :04:34.talking about care assistants, nurses, teachers, people who work
:04:34. > :04:38.in local authorities. The Tories at Westminster are so far removed from
:04:38. > :04:42.ordinary people. When I was a child, if people's children got a job
:04:42. > :04:48.working for the council, people were glad for them because it was a
:04:48. > :04:53.steady job and it came with a pension. That's very important to
:04:53. > :04:58.people who have given their lives to the public service. What about
:04:58. > :05:04.the strikes, we've heard the background many times? People don't
:05:04. > :05:08.talk about the real issue. "I believe it was a mistake for
:05:08. > :05:14.strikes to happen. I continue to believe that." Your Shadow
:05:14. > :05:20.Chancellor says, "would you ask them to call off the strikes?"
:05:20. > :05:24."No:" who is right? It is not a question of who is wrong or right.
:05:24. > :05:28.The Government is not negotiating in good faith. It is determined to
:05:28. > :05:32.make ordinary people pay for bailing out the bankers. They want
:05:32. > :05:36.proper negotiation. They have to go out to ballot because if the
:05:36. > :05:40.negotiations do finally break down they will have had to go through a
:05:40. > :05:44.ballot to have a strike. I hope and everybody hopes that the
:05:44. > :05:48.negotiations really work and the Government begin to negotiate in
:05:48. > :05:51.good faith. If they have a ballot and they ballot for a strike, would
:05:51. > :05:55.you be with Ed Miliband saying it was a mistake or if the trade
:05:55. > :05:59.unions want to go on strike, having had a ballot, it is their affair
:05:59. > :06:07.and legitimate and right and proper they should? I would be with Ed
:06:07. > :06:11.Miliband saying it is regrettable, but I would suspicious it would not
:06:11. > :06:16.happen if the Government negotiated. Many public sector workers are
:06:16. > :06:20.angry about the cuts taking place, the disruption to the service. As a
:06:20. > :06:25.teacher, I would, five to ten years ago, I would never have considered
:06:25. > :06:29.striking and I would have been whole heartedly against strikes. In
:06:29. > :06:33.my opinion it's the only way we're being heard. People who would not
:06:33. > :06:38.have normally taken action are going to this time, simply because
:06:38. > :06:44.their voice is not being heard. Would you favour a mass November
:06:44. > :06:51.strike? It is early until a decision is made. If the Government,
:06:51. > :06:55.and I think what Owen is saying is totally wrong. One day of action,
:06:55. > :06:58.the impact it will have on the economy is minute suel, compared to
:06:58. > :07:02.the impact that the current economic strategy is having, but
:07:02. > :07:06.putting public sector workers out of work, who can no longer
:07:06. > :07:10.contribute to the economy. What would it achieve? It sends a
:07:10. > :07:14.message to the Government, that the economic recovery in terms of the
:07:14. > :07:20.cuts and deficit must change. It is too much, too fast. The woman in
:07:20. > :07:24.the middle there. APPLAUSE
:07:24. > :07:28.I just think the unions are as guilty as the Tories of being
:07:28. > :07:34.detached from ordinary people. It's not "fat cats" or Government who
:07:34. > :07:37.are going to get the message or have their day disrupted by public
:07:37. > :07:40.service strikes. It is ordinary private workers who equally are
:07:40. > :07:45.having their day disrupted, whether because they have to take a day off
:07:45. > :07:49.to look after their children or can't get the services they need.
:07:49. > :07:55.It seems bizarre to gain public support or get a message across to
:07:55. > :07:58.cause this amount of havoc. Nicola Horlick, do you agree with that?
:07:58. > :08:02.think the really important point is we're got to think about the impact
:08:02. > :08:08.of slowing down. What is happening in Europe at the moment - if we
:08:08. > :08:12.were to slow down, it would have an amazingly bad effect on our economy
:08:12. > :08:15.ultimately because markets would take flight and Stirling would
:08:15. > :08:19.start to collapse and people would not buy our bonds when we wanted to
:08:19. > :08:23.raise money in the markets. Does a one-day strike, which she was
:08:23. > :08:26.talking about, have any effect on the economy - just one day? It will
:08:26. > :08:31.not have a huge effect on the economy. It is not about that. Yes,
:08:31. > :08:34.of course it does have an impact on people if their children can't go
:08:34. > :08:39.to school and you have to stay at home to look after them. You have
:08:39. > :08:44.to think about the issue, which is, can we afford to pay people the
:08:44. > :08:48.amount we have been paying them? Can we afford to have so many
:08:48. > :08:55.working in the public sector? Can we afford the pensions? The answer
:08:55. > :08:59.is, no. I have worked in the pension fund area for 28 years. I
:08:59. > :09:03.have pension funds. I am telling you now it is not affordable or
:09:03. > :09:08.sustainable. Who is paying those pensions? It is all of us - it is
:09:08. > :09:12.the taxpayers. We are paying those pensions and it is not affordable.
:09:12. > :09:18.Unfortunately, yes, of course everybody would like the status quo
:09:18. > :09:22.to be maintained. I am saying it as someone who is not a politician,
:09:22. > :09:28.not political, somebody who looks at it being in the industry for a
:09:28. > :09:32.long time. These proposals will stripe one-third of my benefits.
:09:32. > :09:41.Can I ask Mr Patterson to pledge to give up a third of his pension here
:09:41. > :09:45.and now? APPLAUSE
:09:45. > :09:50.All MPs, you will be pleased to hear, will make a larger
:09:50. > :09:54.contribution to their pensions. We're not going to give up one-
:09:54. > :09:57.third. We are all in this together.
:09:57. > :10:02.No, no. You are getting more benefits now
:10:02. > :10:07.than you were ten years ago. Is that right or wrong? Is it fair
:10:07. > :10:11.that people in the private sector.... Is it fair that you get
:10:11. > :10:18.more than me and your rates are going up? That is for the electors
:10:18. > :10:21.to decide. Do you want to answer? The very
:10:21. > :10:27.simple point is, there are people who are modestly paid in the
:10:27. > :10:30.private sector, who will be paying more, as contributions to public
:10:30. > :10:36.sector pensions than to their own. It is tremendous that people are
:10:36. > :10:42.living ten years longer than they were 30 years ago. Have MPs done
:10:42. > :10:48.their bit, is his point? If you say we're all in this together - have
:10:48. > :10:55.MPs' pensions be cut in the same way his is cut? No the MP's country
:10:55. > :10:59.luegs is going up. -- contribution is going up. 10%. You are asking me
:10:59. > :11:04.to pay 14% over the next number of years. This is part of the
:11:04. > :11:09.negotiation. This needs negotiating. It's not. The woman there in grey,
:11:09. > :11:13.then I come to you. Yes, you. I would say that Ed
:11:13. > :11:19.Miliband should hang his head in shame for the statement he made
:11:19. > :11:24.along with George Osborne who said the unions are deeply irresponsible.
:11:24. > :11:28.Danny Alexander, as far back as June, said that the contributions,
:11:28. > :11:32.the increased contributions and the raise of pension age was going
:11:32. > :11:36.ahead, regardless. That is not negotiation. Negotiation is when
:11:37. > :11:41.you go in and change the outcome. He has already declared what the
:11:41. > :11:44.outcome is. And the people... I'm a public servant as well. I cannot
:11:44. > :11:52.afford to go on strike, but I can not afford not to go on strike.
:11:52. > :11:57.They want me to work eight years longer, pay �70 more, to lose
:11:57. > :12:02.�50,000 overall. Where's the fairness in that?
:12:02. > :12:06.To answer the question directly.... Can you answer her question?
:12:06. > :12:10.think the decision by Ed Miliband to take the stance that he did was
:12:10. > :12:14.motivated more by the fact that as a politician he's aware and he's
:12:14. > :12:18.looking at the Labour Party interest, essentially, he's aware
:12:18. > :12:21.that strikes, like this, especially where they announce one after the
:12:21. > :12:25.other by union bosses, which was unfortunate because it came across
:12:25. > :12:28.as a co-ordinated, more along the lines to do with the Government's
:12:28. > :12:33.general economic policy, rather than the issue of pensions. So, I
:12:33. > :12:37.don't think that served the cause terribly well. I think he's
:12:37. > :12:40.recognising that essentially these kind of major strikes across the
:12:41. > :12:45.board, co-ordinated are not popular with ordinary people, apart from
:12:45. > :12:48.those who are affected directly. That's the reality of it. Because
:12:48. > :12:52.of the impact it has on public life and the impact it has on the
:12:52. > :12:57.economy, and people are saying, well one day does not have much of
:12:57. > :13:00.an impact. In fact, if you remember the extra bank holiday in April was
:13:00. > :13:06.blamed for a slowdown in the economy. Having said that, of
:13:06. > :13:08.course, it's not all one-sided, because the Government does have a
:13:08. > :13:13.responsibility to negotiate properly. The decision on whether
:13:13. > :13:16.to strike or not would have much more sympathy with the public at
:13:17. > :13:24.large if the decision was made after the negotiation was finished.
:13:24. > :13:33.I think it would have more public sympathy, because people would say,
:13:33. > :13:37."Why now?" What do you say to the lady's point, that actually the
:13:37. > :13:47.Treasury announced what will happen and they are not seriously
:13:47. > :13:49.
:13:49. > :13:54.I certainly hope that they are. The negotiation should be a serious
:13:54. > :13:59.negotiation. The only point is to go pre-emptively to strike action,
:13:59. > :14:05.to the general public, that smacks of being too premature. The man up
:14:05. > :14:09.there, in the grey shirt? I've worked for local government for 23
:14:09. > :14:14.years. We have had four years of a pay freeze. We are looking at
:14:14. > :14:18.another two. Prices are going up. How are we supposed to run our
:14:18. > :14:23.house economy is? You talk about mass economies, might wages, in
:14:23. > :14:27.real terms, have gone down. I knew in favour of strike action? If we
:14:27. > :14:34.have to take strike action, I'm in favour. Simply because I can't
:14:34. > :14:38.sustain my family. What do I do? Go on the dole? You, in the front row?
:14:38. > :14:41.By people are paying more money for the things they buy. People are
:14:41. > :14:47.seriously cash-strapped. They should fight against that, so that
:14:47. > :14:55.they can feed their families. Paterson? Do you want to pick up on
:14:55. > :14:59.I don't underestimate how difficult the current economic situation is
:14:59. > :15:09.for everybody in this hall and everybody watching. The simple fact
:15:09. > :15:10.
:15:10. > :15:16.is that we are borrowing �232,000 a minute. I said earlier, we are
:15:16. > :15:22.spending �120 million of money a day in interest alone. That is
:15:22. > :15:32.completely dead money. This business about, oh, we don't have
:15:32. > :15:32.
:15:32. > :15:37.the money, can I just deal directly with Nicolas' point, that the
:15:37. > :15:43.public sector pensions are not affordable. The Government's own
:15:43. > :15:47.figures show that, as a proportion of GDP, it is going down. It's not
:15:47. > :15:56.if we can afford them, it is if people like Owen want to afford
:15:56. > :16:00.them. On that point, Lord Hutton said, that diagram, those figures,
:16:00. > :16:07.they are misunderstood. They actually refer to the effect after
:16:07. > :16:14.the changes have been taken effect, not... Up well, distinguished
:16:14. > :16:19.economists say that they are affordable. What kind of society
:16:19. > :16:25.will spend billions of pounds bail out bankers, but won't give a care
:16:25. > :16:31.assistant Edison pension? I have never known people eager to go out
:16:31. > :16:35.on strike. -- a decent pension. In this economic climate, it must be
:16:35. > :16:38.frightening, the prospect of going on strike. The teacher that said he
:16:38. > :16:41.would never consider going on strike before, but because of what
:16:41. > :16:46.is happening, he is having to consider it, he is more typical
:16:46. > :16:50.than a stereotype of people that are eager to go on strike. I said
:16:50. > :16:53.that it was the union bosses, lining up one after the other, that
:16:53. > :16:57.appeared to be keen to go on strike to the public. I agree with you, in
:16:57. > :17:02.relation to ordinary people, the last thing ordinary people want to
:17:02. > :17:07.do is to resort to that kind of action. If he would let me speak,
:17:07. > :17:12.they do not want to do that. They would rather have been settled by
:17:12. > :17:17.negotiation. That's not always true for union bosses, many of whom are
:17:17. > :17:24.extremely well-paid. People do not believe there is genuine
:17:24. > :17:34.negotiations taking place. That's the problem. There are several ways
:17:34. > :17:45.
:17:45. > :17:55.Let's take another question, this time from Jude Lewis. Has the euro
:17:55. > :17:55.
:17:55. > :18:00.Nigel Dodds? You have seen the chaos yesterday. Is the euro-zone
:18:00. > :18:05.dead and finished? I think in its current form, it certainly is. I
:18:05. > :18:08.think a smaller, core euro-zone, led by the Germans and some of the
:18:08. > :18:12.wealthier European states. But in my view, the euro should never have
:18:12. > :18:16.been born in the first place. It has been an unmitigated disaster
:18:16. > :18:20.from day one. It was a one-size- fits-all approach to the European
:18:20. > :18:24.economy and it was never going to work. You had a situation where you
:18:24. > :18:28.didn't have a united government, a United finance ministry, a united
:18:28. > :18:32.budget. That is the only way you can make a united currency work. If
:18:33. > :18:37.you don't have any of that, United currencies are always going to lead
:18:37. > :18:42.to problems. The question is if it is past its sell-by date. Most
:18:42. > :18:47.things that have passed their sell- by date, they accept a day when you
:18:48. > :18:50.can go on eating them, most things you can throw away. Do you think
:18:50. > :18:55.that is going to happen? I think it's like those things that should
:18:55. > :18:58.be thrown away, but they are not. The only reason it continues to be
:18:58. > :19:01.propped up is that the Euro- federalists, who dreamed up this
:19:01. > :19:06.scheme and the first place, they absolutely determined to keep it
:19:06. > :19:10.going, even if it means bankrupting them and taxpayers. There is going
:19:10. > :19:14.to come a crunch, sooner or later. We know, no matter what is done,
:19:14. > :19:17.the Greeks are eventually going to default. That is the reality. You
:19:17. > :19:21.cannot sustain the current situation. There was no confidence
:19:21. > :19:25.in the market. The sooner that happens, I think the reality will
:19:25. > :19:29.set in. It will be very painful, no matter what happens. It you
:19:29. > :19:33.bankrupt Germany and the eurozone countries, that is painful. It the
:19:33. > :19:38.banks go bankrupt in France because of the amount of debt they have in
:19:38. > :19:41.Greece, that will be painful. But this pretence that the eurozone is
:19:41. > :19:45.going to be maintained against all comers, that Chris is going to
:19:45. > :19:49.remain in the euro-zone, it is nonsense. It flies in the face of
:19:49. > :19:53.the facts. The euro experiment shows the folly of those that press
:19:54. > :19:58.ahead with Euro-federalism and created as a principle above
:19:58. > :20:05.reality, that you cannot create this stream above the wishes of the
:20:05. > :20:10.people. Yes? I just had a point in relation to what Nigel has said
:20:10. > :20:15.about the architecture of the euro. He has discussed the fact that the
:20:15. > :20:19.reason why the euro was in difficulty was because it was not
:20:19. > :20:26.political union at the same time as monetary union. I would just like
:20:26. > :20:32.to remind Nigel that last week Jurgen Stark, the German member of
:20:32. > :20:37.the ECB, actually resigned. He was one of the leading architects of
:20:37. > :20:40.this stability and Growth Pact. Before the euro-zone members at the
:20:40. > :20:44.time had actually followed what they were supposed to follow within
:20:44. > :20:54.the constraints of that particular pact, we would not be seeing the
:20:54. > :20:57.
:20:57. > :21:01.crisis that we are seeing at the moment. Nicolas Horlick, you are a
:21:01. > :21:05.Business woman, what do you make of what is happening? Is the euro dead
:21:05. > :21:10.and gone? I think it was ill con seen fit. Are you can't have
:21:10. > :21:14.monetary union without fiscal union as well. -- ill conceived.
:21:14. > :21:18.Certainly, to have people making decisions based on interest rates
:21:18. > :21:22.and not having any ability to do anything about taxation is not
:21:22. > :21:30.right, clearly it has failed. I think it would be pretty disastrous,
:21:30. > :21:35.it would be like a Lehman Brothers times 1000 if you were to unwind
:21:35. > :21:39.the euro. Why so? Or of the positions that are open in Euro-
:21:39. > :21:43.currency, hedge funds, banks, it would be incredibly... It's not
:21:43. > :21:48.just banks, it would be disastrous for ordinary people. It would be
:21:48. > :21:53.disastrous for everybody if that were to happen. So, what would
:21:53. > :21:57.happen? Let me finish, what has to happen is that Greece has to be let
:21:57. > :22:01.go. They are going to have to have the drachma again. It's only fair
:22:01. > :22:04.on them, because these austerity measures are so extreme that it is
:22:04. > :22:08.very difficult for them. They need to be able to devalue. They can
:22:08. > :22:12.only do that if they come out of the euro. Then there has to be some
:22:12. > :22:17.sort of fiscal union. Maybe Nigel is right, maybe it's a smaller
:22:17. > :22:21.group of countries, maybe not all 17. I think it's important to
:22:21. > :22:25.maintain the euro. I didn't believe the euro in the first place, and
:22:25. > :22:29.glad we didn't join. But we are where we are now, and you have to
:22:29. > :22:33.be realistic. It would be very difficult to suddenly bring back
:22:33. > :22:38.all of those different currencies. We have to find some solution.
:22:38. > :22:43.There are constitutional issues, clearly political issues, that
:22:43. > :22:46.arise. In Germany, how on are the Germans going to want to carry on?
:22:46. > :22:50.Clearly, if he or German, you're going to be upset about what is
:22:50. > :22:55.going on. What do you see in the crystal ball? A smaller number of
:22:55. > :22:59.people, still the euro, Greece are not in it, and hopefully we will
:22:59. > :23:03.get through it. Let me emphasise, this is really serious. This is the
:23:03. > :23:11.biggest problem we have faced, economically, for generations.
:23:11. > :23:16.Potentially. Martina Anderson, what do you think? Well, when you look
:23:16. > :23:22.at Greece and Ireland, the so- called bail-outs that took place,
:23:22. > :23:32.it wasn't Krays what island that was bailed out. It was the bankers.
:23:32. > :23:38.-- it wasn't Greece Walk Island What would you do with the banks?
:23:38. > :23:44.Default. Let them closed down? would have entered into an
:23:44. > :23:48.arrangement about how we would have paid that in the future. How would
:23:48. > :23:52.people have gone to a cash point and got their Euros out committee
:23:52. > :23:56.poll -- followed that policy? didn't believe that the banks would
:23:56. > :24:01.have collapsed. We didn't believe it would have been a consequence of
:24:01. > :24:08.defaulting. Do you think the euro is past the sell-by date? You have
:24:08. > :24:12.heard what Nicolas Horlick has said. I don't think it's helpful to
:24:12. > :24:18.speculate when the gravity of the situation is exactly as Nicolas
:24:18. > :24:21.said. I was interested in Martina's comments. When the Irish problems
:24:21. > :24:27.came to the surface in November, we discussed this. It isn't good
:24:28. > :24:31.enough to say, let them go. The eurozone, as we know, is a few
:24:31. > :24:37.miles from here. We sell more to the Republic of Ireland than we
:24:37. > :24:42.sell to Brazil, China, India and Russia combined. It is a huge
:24:42. > :24:48.market for us. There are many, many people across the United Kingdom
:24:48. > :24:54.who depend on as having a stable and prosperous republic of Ireland.
:24:54. > :24:59.So, in our case, we contributed a bilateral loan, on top of the EU
:24:59. > :25:05.and IMF loan. I think it was 3.8 billion euros. I think that was the
:25:05. > :25:09.right thing to do. What about Greece? I told you so is not a good
:25:09. > :25:16.economic policy. There are many of us, right from the beginning, that
:25:16. > :25:19.had doubts, clearly expressed by Nigel. The problem is, this is a
:25:19. > :25:24.huge international problem. We've got the American finance flying
:25:24. > :25:28.over to Poland tomorrow at. Thank goodness we are not in the euro. It
:25:28. > :25:33.was absolutely right that we stayed out. We do have control of taxation,
:25:33. > :25:40.we do have control of our interest rates. We do have a competitive
:25:40. > :25:46.exchange rate. We are in a position to be helpful from the outside. On
:25:46. > :25:53.the question of Rhys, we had a meeting yesterday with Sarkozy and
:25:53. > :25:57.Angela Merkel. -- Greece. You have seen the markets steady today. The
:25:57. > :26:02.17 countries in the euro have very, very difficult decisions to make.
:26:02. > :26:08.From our point of view, speculation on what they should do is unhelpful.
:26:08. > :26:11.But, it is in our interests that these problems are resolved over
:26:11. > :26:18.time. That is not in our interest that the euro should break-up. But
:26:18. > :26:22.we should all be thankful we are not in the euro ourselves. It's
:26:22. > :26:27.interesting for me to watch, I live and work in Dublin. Regardless of
:26:27. > :26:31.the arguments over whether the euro was right or wrong, I find it
:26:31. > :26:35.ludicrous that the UK politicians don't understand that if the
:26:35. > :26:40.eurozone fails, Ireland, north and south, fails. This is a big deal
:26:40. > :26:44.for the UK. Huge trade and investment links. For that reason,
:26:44. > :26:49.why isn't David Cameron the Udinese negotiations? Why doesn't the UK
:26:49. > :26:52.offer to reduce some of its debt in eurobonds? Why it isn't it looking
:26:52. > :26:57.to make more aggressive solutions, rather than dancing on the grave of
:26:57. > :27:02.the euro? It's just over the border, as you say. I still don't feel
:27:02. > :27:10.you're going far enough to do anything more than just say, well,
:27:10. > :27:15.the euro is dead. That is not a fair interpretation of what I said.
:27:15. > :27:20.In the case of Ireland, we were quite clear that we stepped in and
:27:21. > :27:26.made a bilateral loan. That was a clear decision because we have a
:27:26. > :27:30.huge, vested interest in keeping a prosperous and stable economy next
:27:30. > :27:35.door. Not just for more than Ireland but for the whole of the UK.
:27:35. > :27:43.But beyond their, I understood, but beyond that there seems to be a
:27:43. > :27:48.disengagement. Diane Abbott? think we have Gordon Brown to thank
:27:48. > :27:54.for keeping us out of the euro. He is a man, I think, that posterity
:27:54. > :27:58.would will deal with kinder than at the moment. No, I think that's true.
:27:58. > :28:04.I understand what you're saying, it is a huge deal. But I've always
:28:04. > :28:08.been sceptical about economic and monetary union. It was, essentially,
:28:08. > :28:14.a political project. It never made much economic sense. It was fine
:28:14. > :28:18.when we had a boom internationally. Now it has fallen apart. To be fair
:28:18. > :28:22.to Her Majesty's government, whatever the rhetoric, clearly
:28:22. > :28:26.David Cameron has to please his Euro-sceptics. They have been
:28:26. > :28:31.active, behind the scenes, trying to help southern Ireland. But I
:28:31. > :28:39.think Nicola is probably right. The poor Greeks cannot sustain the
:28:39. > :28:42.level of cuts to stay within the euro. If you spoke to German
:28:42. > :28:46.central banks, which I did in the 90s, they were always sceptical
:28:46. > :28:52.about having Latin countries in the euro. The economies were so
:28:52. > :28:56.different from those of Germany. I don't want to speculate, but I
:28:56. > :29:01.think that Greece's position is not sustainable. We just have to hope
:29:01. > :29:06.that the German taxpayer is going to be willing to fund weaker
:29:06. > :29:12.countries within the eurozone into the foreseeable future. So, our lot
:29:12. > :29:22.turns on Angela Merkel and her ability to persuade hero and voters.
:29:22. > :29:22.
:29:22. > :29:26.One more point, from the man up there.
:29:26. > :29:33.Is it not fair to say if the euro collapses it might take the system
:29:33. > :29:37.down with it? Do you believe in that? They expect 25% in British
:29:37. > :29:41.business. We get funded from British business, at the end of the
:29:41. > :29:46.day. Do you think that assessment is right? Yes, potentially. What
:29:46. > :29:50.you have to remember is there is a pile of debt in other countries
:29:50. > :29:55.like Italy. When you look at who lent that, it's the French banks.
:29:55. > :30:02.That is why you have read in the papers that France may have to re-
:30:02. > :30:12.finance its banks. The whole system could collapse.
:30:12. > :30:16.A brief point from you, Sir. If you look at all currencies, the dollar,
:30:16. > :30:19.$14.4 trillion in debt. I don't know what the UK is. You have
:30:19. > :30:28.highlighted the problem there. All currencies have red balloons. The
:30:28. > :30:34.fact is, sooner or later, they will have to come to the solution that
:30:34. > :30:39.it is useless. Wipe the slate clean and start again. That is what they
:30:39. > :30:43.did after World War II. Germany and Japan had their slates wiped clean.
:30:43. > :30:50.Within 20 years they had the strongest economies in the world.
:30:50. > :30:56.We'll see. Right, well on that gloomy note, let's move on. We move
:30:56. > :31:04.on to a question completely different.
:31:04. > :31:14.Do you agree with the retired Bishop of Derry that priests should
:31:14. > :31:20.be able to marry if they wish, within the Roman Catholic Church?
:31:20. > :31:24.Do you think Catholic priests should be able to marry? I am not a
:31:24. > :31:28.Catholic. It is with some care that I comment on this. First of all, we
:31:28. > :31:34.have to remember that Roman Catholic priests have not always
:31:34. > :31:38.had to be sell bait. I think it came in the -- celibate. I think it
:31:38. > :31:47.came in the 11th century. It was for spiritual and other reasons.
:31:48. > :31:53.Also, people say, the Church at the time wanted priests to leave their
:31:53. > :31:57.land to the Church. There are Roman Catholic priests with families now.
:31:58. > :32:02.Those are those Anglican priests which have come across to the Roman
:32:02. > :32:07.Catholic Church. Increasing numbers of Archbishops, not just your
:32:07. > :32:13.bishop here, your former Bishop.... Your description is fine - what is
:32:13. > :32:19.your answer? I think, in the erm terms of a paper that was -- in the
:32:19. > :32:24.terms of the paper that was signed in 1970, the Catholic Church needs
:32:24. > :32:32.to open up this issue and have a debate. Clearly there'll always be
:32:32. > :32:38.a case for celibate priests. Nobody is going to enforce marriage!
:32:38. > :32:47.point is this paper was signed in 1970 by nine Catholic theologyians,
:32:47. > :32:57.one of whom is the present Pope. you agree that it should not be on
:32:57. > :32:59.
:32:59. > :33:04.Bill Clinton Tory? As a former -- should not be obligatory. I don't
:33:04. > :33:11.agree with for different reasons,vy to say. I think the former Bishop
:33:11. > :33:15.is respected in our city and rightly so. I have heard some
:33:15. > :33:20.comments from people who have said they would have liked him to have
:33:20. > :33:25.said it a lot sooner. I do think that, without doubt, I think it is
:33:25. > :33:30.an issue and I am a Catholic. I do believe that at the same time that
:33:30. > :33:37.we must confront it and address it. I think it will take a long time
:33:37. > :33:42.for the workings of it. Why? think, you know once you go through
:33:42. > :33:45.law and all the discussions. have Catholic priests who are
:33:46. > :33:53.married already - they came from the Church of England. There is an
:33:53. > :33:56.issue here. I would like to address it. I'm junior minister to Martin
:33:56. > :34:00.McGuinness in the office of the first and Deputy First Minister.
:34:00. > :34:07.One of the important issues I am dealing with and one of the most
:34:07. > :34:12.painful issuesvy found I am dealing is around historical institutional
:34:12. > :34:17.abuse and clerical abuse. Whilst I do not believe that there is a
:34:17. > :34:21.direct connection, perhaps, but I think that when you have an
:34:21. > :34:26.institution that is an all male institution, that perhaps would
:34:26. > :34:33.attract the kind of people that have been unfortunately within
:34:33. > :34:38.those institutions and has caused the damage and the pain to young
:34:38. > :34:45.children, I think this is a wider discussion that we need to have. I
:34:45. > :34:48.think this is one element of it. I do believe, without doubt, that it
:34:48. > :34:54.should happen and it should happen very soon.
:34:55. > :34:57.OK. The man up there in the striped tie. Speaking as a recovering
:34:57. > :35:02.Catholic myself, I can say the Church has a lot of reforming to do
:35:02. > :35:05.if they are going to survive, basically. You have one or two
:35:05. > :35:12.priests...: What is a recovering Catholic? A humanist now.
:35:12. > :35:19.Somebody, you know, there's very few people ordained if at all any
:35:19. > :35:23.more on the island. In America this debate has gone on as well. Also on
:35:23. > :35:28.the issue as whether woman should have an equal role. The Church has
:35:28. > :35:32.to look at itself and really ask serious questions, as was said
:35:32. > :35:37.about other issues as well, if they are going to survive. Nicola
:35:37. > :35:42.Horlick? I am not a Catholic, but my mother and my husband is. It is
:35:42. > :35:45.difficult to comment when you are not a member of that particular
:35:45. > :35:49.church. It has to be right. I completely agree that looking at
:35:49. > :35:52.all the things which have happened, it has to be right to give people
:35:52. > :35:57.the choice. Not everybody has to get married. It would be a good
:35:57. > :36:01.idea to allow priests to be married. There are, certainly in this
:36:01. > :36:05.country, Anglican priests who have moved across who are. I think that
:36:05. > :36:09.would be a sensible thing. Do you agree with what she implied and
:36:09. > :36:14.stated, if you had more married priests within the Roman Catholic
:36:14. > :36:22.Church you might not have the problem of child abuse which have
:36:22. > :36:29.been continually.... Can I? That was your implication. When you have
:36:29. > :36:34.an all-male institution I think you provide an opportunity for perhaps
:36:34. > :36:40.what some of us may describe as paedophilia and other types of
:36:40. > :36:46.activity going on. I'm not saying that to get married that that would
:36:46. > :36:51.address that. I think that you allow for access into an
:36:51. > :36:55.institution like that for people who have, unfortunately, those kind
:36:55. > :37:02.of tendencies. I think if you have then the options of being married
:37:02. > :37:10.that you could address some of them. It smacks of heinous desperation
:37:10. > :37:16.that the Catholic Church would say, let's go down the road of abolish...
:37:16. > :37:24.Get rid of celibacy in some how to address the issues of the past. If
:37:24. > :37:34.a man has molessed a child, if the -- molested a child, if the
:37:34. > :37:35.
:37:35. > :37:43.Catholic Church feel they can some how relief these men by letting
:37:43. > :37:48.them marry women. It smack desperation. I am lapsed because of
:37:48. > :37:51.this horrific stuff we have heard. I begrudge even bringing my
:37:51. > :37:55.children to Catholic schools. I want them to go to integrated
:37:55. > :38:00.schools. I don't want them to be brought into this whole thing. We
:38:00. > :38:06.talk about it at the school gates. We don't want our children to be
:38:06. > :38:13.alter boys or girls. Our trust has been completely broken. We have no
:38:13. > :38:20.confidence in the Church at the minute as a parent. Second row from
:38:20. > :38:27.the back? I wonder if they would allow gay partnerships for priests.
:38:27. > :38:35.It is one thing to be OK in an open relationship with a woman, but why
:38:36. > :38:41.can't they be in a relationship with a man? Nigel Dodds? I have to
:38:42. > :38:46.say on the issue, the backdrop to the former Bishop's comments, the
:38:46. > :38:49.lady who has spoken has spoken very powerfully and I have heard other
:38:49. > :38:53.people speak like that in my constituency and so on. It is a
:38:53. > :39:00.very, very difficult time for a lot of people in the Roman Catholic
:39:00. > :39:04.faith. I have to say, I suppose, it is difficult, as Nicola said to
:39:04. > :39:09.make any real comment if you are not a member of that church. It is
:39:09. > :39:16.a matter for the Roman Catholic Church at the end of the day.
:39:16. > :39:26.not a matter for society to comment on whether you think, whether he's
:39:26. > :39:33.right to say that celibacy should not obligatry? On all matters like
:39:33. > :39:37.this -- obligatory? On all matters like this we should go back to
:39:37. > :39:41.Christian faith, which is the holy scriptures. It is not the matter
:39:41. > :39:48.just to decide, well what should the Church do? What's the modern
:39:48. > :39:54.day view? It is what do the holy scriptures teach? What did God lay
:39:54. > :39:57.down in his word? There is nothing in the word of God to say that you
:39:58. > :40:02.should have celibacy. APPLAUSE
:40:02. > :40:06.What do you say to the view from the back that civil partnerships
:40:06. > :40:11.should be allowed? Again that is a matter entirely for the Roman
:40:11. > :40:17.Catholic Church. Again, what comes out of that should be based on a
:40:17. > :40:22.proper examination and study of the holy scriptures. It is for church
:40:22. > :40:25.people to discuss that. In my view, these matters should be examine nds
:40:25. > :40:34.the light of scripture, not in the light of men's thoughts of what
:40:34. > :40:38.they think is best. Owen Patterson? I think when somebody as
:40:39. > :40:44.distinguished makes a statement like this, I think one should prick
:40:44. > :40:48.up one's ears. I think, similar to Nigel, for myself I am a member of
:40:48. > :40:53.the Church of England. I'm not an expert on Catholic
:40:53. > :40:59.doctrine. I really don't think it's appropriate for me to make comments.
:40:59. > :41:04.This is a matter for the Catholic Church to work out for itself.
:41:04. > :41:08.Say it again. I would disagree with him when he says it is a matter for
:41:08. > :41:11.the Church to work out. That is what they've been doing for how
:41:11. > :41:15.many years in relation to child abuse. They have been allowed to
:41:15. > :41:19.cover this up. You have just said, let them get on with it themselves.
:41:19. > :41:23.That's completely, you have completely missed all the
:41:23. > :41:28.discussion if that is your viewpoint. They are not above the
:41:28. > :41:38.law. They think they are above the law. They aren't. To let them get
:41:38. > :41:43.on with it themselves, that is what has gone wrong. APPLAUSE
:41:43. > :41:48.If that's the position, as I heard it as well, you know, for a state
:41:48. > :41:52.at the minute that is trying to bring some kind of closure on the
:41:52. > :41:56.whole issue of institutional abuse, I think as Secretary of State you
:41:56. > :42:00.need to clarify your position. Nigel, I would offer to you to
:42:00. > :42:03.clarify your position. The members of the assembly and there are
:42:03. > :42:07.representatives in Government, here in the north, need to clarify their
:42:07. > :42:13.position, now at this point, as we're coming up to the
:42:13. > :42:17.establishment of an inquiry into historical institutional abuse. You
:42:17. > :42:25.need to clarify your position. I have the greatest respect for the
:42:25. > :42:28.Bishop. I think maybe it's too late and a subject to offer to the
:42:28. > :42:33.Church on. They may not be for turning. It will have to be forced
:42:33. > :42:37.to turn. APPLAUSE
:42:37. > :42:47.Nevertheless, the question was about celibacy and whether it
:42:47. > :42:47.
:42:47. > :42:51.should be obligatry. -- obligatory. I am aware of the
:42:51. > :42:54.anguish these cases have caused. The question was about marriage.
:42:54. > :43:00.That is something for the Church to decide within its own rules. If
:43:00. > :43:04.there has been any law-breaking, by anybody, we are all equal before
:43:04. > :43:10.the law. If the lady knows of cases, she
:43:10. > :43:14.should go to the police. I think we'll go on to another
:43:14. > :43:17.question. Let's take this one from today's news from Leo Cullen,
:43:17. > :43:21.please. Leo Cullen, break away from
:43:21. > :43:31.Northern Ireland and the UK for just a moment.
:43:31. > :43:35.Does Libya have a better future We hope so. In my view, Iraq was an
:43:35. > :43:40.illegal invasion in the first place and you had years of bloodshed. I
:43:40. > :43:43.saw David Cameron in Libya today, looking very triumphant. I felt
:43:43. > :43:48.rather nervous, I remember Tony Blair looking triumphant in Kosovo,
:43:48. > :43:53.we know what that led to. I think the thing is not over, you can't
:43:53. > :43:58.claim victory yet. It's very important that at every point both
:43:58. > :44:02.the British and the French make it clear that they really were
:44:02. > :44:05.supporting the Iraq rebels to defend human rights, and not to get
:44:05. > :44:10.access to oil. I think it's important that the British and the
:44:10. > :44:15.French make it clear that this is a Libyan lead issue, this is for the
:44:15. > :44:20.Libyans to go where they want to go. I'm glad we were able to stop some
:44:20. > :44:26.people being slaughtered in Benghazi. But it's too wally to
:44:26. > :44:33.claim victory. Do you think we will benefit in terms of oil? -- it's
:44:33. > :44:38.too early to claim victory. I sincerely hope that was not the
:44:38. > :44:43.motive... That was the question, do you think we will benefit? A human
:44:43. > :44:53.nature is human nature, what can I say? I don't know, what would you
:44:53. > :44:56.
:44:56. > :45:00.say? Let Owen and so, he knows if Pick up the challenge. I think that
:45:00. > :45:04.she is quite right, it is not all over. There are pockets of
:45:04. > :45:08.resistance. But when you look back six months ago, and you saw the
:45:08. > :45:15.prospect facing the people of Benghazi, there was a prospect of a
:45:15. > :45:19.real massacre, right on Europe's doorstep. I fully paid tribute to
:45:19. > :45:24.David Cameron for working with President Sarkozy, the Arab League,
:45:24. > :45:28.and getting together a UN resolution. At a huge tribute to
:45:28. > :45:33.the enormous scale of armed forces and NATO, for getting rid of
:45:33. > :45:37.Gaddafi with extraordinarily little civilian cost. But Diane is quite
:45:37. > :45:43.right, this is not all over. We have a transition Council at the
:45:43. > :45:47.moment. We need to see a fresh government properly established.
:45:47. > :45:51.But what we have seen today is an extraordinary outburst, I accept
:45:51. > :45:56.that, people really pleased to be getting their freedom.
:45:56. > :46:01.distinguish between this and what happened in Iraq? I think Diane's
:46:01. > :46:05.point is very similar to Iraq. It's too early to tell. As I understand,
:46:06. > :46:12.Iraq is a very chaotic place. It has free press, people have mobile
:46:12. > :46:17.phones, they ran difficult -- there are different political parties.
:46:17. > :46:22.It's not a Ricky dinky Scandinavian democracy. But I still think it's
:46:22. > :46:28.better than it was under Saddam Hussein. But we did need to
:46:28. > :46:32.intervene in Iraq and I think it can't be defended. I agree, we
:46:32. > :46:35.didn't need an illegal war. We heard about weapons of mass
:46:35. > :46:40.destruction, and we also heard the truth of the fallacy of what was
:46:40. > :46:45.told to us. I hope that in Iraq that we have a high standard of
:46:45. > :46:48.international... In Libya, that we have a high standard... Are you in
:46:48. > :46:52.favour of the intervention in Libya? If I think that Colonel
:46:52. > :46:58.Gaddafi should have stood down earlier. That's fair enough, were
:46:58. > :47:02.you in favour of the intervention? NATO? Absolutely not. I was not in
:47:02. > :47:06.favour of any international interference. I was in favour of
:47:06. > :47:10.the people of Libya themselves demanding the human rights and
:47:10. > :47:14.equality that they were entitled to. I believe it is up to the Libyan
:47:14. > :47:19.people themselves to decide the kind of system of government that
:47:19. > :47:22.they want. I hope that the human rights protections that they are
:47:22. > :47:29.entitled to our maintained. The man at the back and then I will come to
:47:29. > :47:32.you. Why has there not been intervention in Syria, Bahrain? The
:47:32. > :47:37.British government is holding hands with the Saudis. If you look at
:47:37. > :47:42.their human rights record, you don't see them going and precision
:47:42. > :47:45.bombing or whatever. Do you mean you shouldn't go into Libya because
:47:46. > :47:50.you don't going to Saudi Arabia? You have to do nothing or
:47:50. > :47:54.everything? People are being slaughtered in Syria. I can't see
:47:54. > :47:59.them making any effort at all. you think they should? I don't
:47:59. > :48:04.think it solves anything at all. Would it sold it in Libya? It's too
:48:04. > :48:09.early to say. Some of the people involved in Libya are people that
:48:09. > :48:13.Britain had down as being Al-Qaeda terrorists or whatever. They don't
:48:13. > :48:18.even know how clear that is with the Government. All of the weapons
:48:18. > :48:23.that they had put into the country. On the gangway? I think we run the
:48:23. > :48:30.risk of becoming an international watchdog. The fact that we have
:48:30. > :48:37.tried to intervene in every world's crisis. I think we need to be they
:48:37. > :48:41.reached -- need to be very selective. To base it on how much
:48:41. > :48:46.oil they have, it's for the wrong reasons. I knew in favour of the
:48:46. > :48:50.action in Libya? Some aspects, I didn't agree with arming rebels in
:48:50. > :48:54.a country we don't know much about. I think Colonel Gaddafi should have
:48:54. > :48:58.steps down. He was obviously a tyrant. But I think that there are
:48:58. > :49:02.countries that have needed our help for much longer. Nigel? I remember
:49:02. > :49:06.being in Tripoli a few months ago, standing in Green Square. To
:49:06. > :49:10.imagine that it's now been renamed Martyrs' Square, people are in the
:49:10. > :49:15.streets celebrating freedom, is a dramatic and unbelievable
:49:15. > :49:21.transformation in a very short time. At that time, people would not talk
:49:21. > :49:25.to any Westerners. They would not make any expression of opinion
:49:25. > :49:28.because they were terrified by Gaddafi. He not only terrorised his
:49:28. > :49:33.own people, but we also have experience in Northern Ireland of
:49:33. > :49:38.him supplying the IRA. Many people were murdered as a result of his
:49:38. > :49:43.help to the IRA. The fact of the matter is that I think it was right
:49:43. > :49:46.to intervene. Remember, had we not intervened at the time that we did,
:49:46. > :49:49.tens of thousands of people would have been slaughtered in Benghazi.
:49:49. > :49:53.People would have been rightly saying, you could have done
:49:53. > :49:57.something about it. I agree with the point about Syria and all of
:49:57. > :50:01.the rest of it. Why can't we do it everywhere? But why can't we do it
:50:01. > :50:08.everywhere is not an excuse about doing nothing at all where we can
:50:08. > :50:12.intervene. David Cameron, Ed Miliband, the entire Western
:50:12. > :50:16.establishment would have been criticised, left, right, centre,
:50:16. > :50:21.you allowed a massacre to happen as a point of principle. I don't think
:50:21. > :50:25.that's right. I think NATO did a great job, I think it's essential
:50:25. > :50:29.that they apprehend Gaddafi because I think as long as he is at large I
:50:29. > :50:32.think he poses a threat and causes instability. I think when he is
:50:32. > :50:35.brought to justice, not only of crimes against his own people, but
:50:35. > :50:38.for crimes against the people of Northern Ireland, the Irish
:50:38. > :50:43.Republic and Britain, because tens of thousands of innocent people
:50:43. > :50:47.everywhere were murdered as a result of his regime. Do you want
:50:47. > :50:50.to comment on that, Martina, as a past member of the IRA? I would
:50:50. > :50:56.have thought that Nigel would have been more concerned about the
:50:56. > :51:01.British government's relationship with Gaddafi. Both. Can you comment
:51:01. > :51:05.on the arms supplies from Libya? Well, that is a story that has been
:51:05. > :51:10.out there and spoken about. People have had all sorts of discussions
:51:10. > :51:16.and debates. It is 30 years old. The reality is that the IRA is off
:51:16. > :51:23.the scene now. We I in a peace process. I can say, as a former
:51:23. > :51:32.member of the IRA, I accept wholeheartedly that we caused her
:51:32. > :51:39.to here -- we caused HIP here. But we were not alone. What we need, in
:51:39. > :51:46.order to advance this peace process, is a genuine truth Commission. And
:51:46. > :51:50.I am, as a former IRA member, willing to go forward and enter
:51:50. > :51:54.into that process. I don't know Nigel. If you can put your hand on
:51:54. > :51:59.heart and say that you would be able to encourage either yourself
:51:59. > :52:04.or others to go for it, about the Ulster Resistance, more of those
:52:04. > :52:10.guns, I don't know if the British government would be willing to go
:52:10. > :52:15.for it and speak to us about the kind of relationships that have
:52:15. > :52:20.been there. Let us just talk about one agent, when we talk about
:52:20. > :52:26.almost the quickie divorce that took place within a two day trial
:52:26. > :52:31.between the state and the agent... They had the opportunity to get the
:52:31. > :52:38.trip to a commission and a reduced cost of a Nigel! You refuse to give
:52:38. > :52:44.evidence to the Bloody Sunday We're talking about Libya, you have
:52:44. > :52:48.made a point. Sinn Fein would not give evidence. I think it's an
:52:48. > :52:52.important part, with all due respect, if you let me finish, with
:52:52. > :53:02.regards to the British government's establishment cut back I think
:53:02. > :53:07.
:53:07. > :53:10.you've said NF about it. -- I think Nicola Horlick? I feel really
:53:10. > :53:14.believed that it worked out in Libya. If you go back and think
:53:14. > :53:19.about what was said when the unrest began, I remember John Simpson
:53:19. > :53:23.saying it was going to be over by tomorrow. It wasn't, we intervened
:53:23. > :53:27.and everybody was saying it would be over within a week. Then it went
:53:27. > :53:32.on. I really do agree with what was said by the gentleman near the back
:53:32. > :53:36.earlier. I'm not sure there is any rhyme and reason to when we
:53:36. > :53:43.intervene. It is a bit random. Thereat other countries where we
:53:43. > :53:48.should intervene. I completely agree. I'm sure I would notice a
:53:48. > :53:54.difference between now and when Gaddafi was in charge. It's
:53:54. > :53:59.fantastic for those people to feel freedom. But the policy is a little
:53:59. > :54:03.bit random. Why haven't we got into Bahrain or anywhere else? I feel
:54:03. > :54:08.slightly cynical about the oil thing. I think we will benefit as a
:54:08. > :54:14.result of what we have done. There are countries that, over many years,
:54:14. > :54:18.have had so many years of distress and unhappiness. Zimbabwe, for
:54:18. > :54:24.example. We have never intervened there. I think it would be a good
:54:24. > :54:27.idea, if we consider, as someone said, why are we acting as the
:54:27. > :54:31.policeman of the world? It's a little bit arrogant that we think
:54:31. > :54:37.we should go in and impose our will on other people. These are tribal
:54:37. > :54:40.societies. I don't know how it will pan out. I hope it will pan out
:54:40. > :54:43.well for Libya. But these are not easy countries. They are not like
:54:43. > :54:49.our countries. Whether they are able to embrace democracy, I don't
:54:49. > :54:52.know. But I very much hope that they will. We have heard from you,
:54:52. > :54:57.sir. Is at more than likely that British governments will take this
:54:57. > :55:03.kind of action, liberal interventionism? If Libya turns out
:55:03. > :55:08.to be a success? Zimbabwe is always mentioned, nothing has been
:55:08. > :55:12.mentioned about Mugabe. I hope we are not going to become liberal
:55:12. > :55:18.interventionists. The whole point about Libya is that MPs voted to
:55:18. > :55:27.give our support. With a UN resolution? With a UN resolution.
:55:27. > :55:34.What we were frightened of was put on the ground and another Iraq.
:55:34. > :55:37.why are we not doing anything about Syria? I think we need to revisit
:55:37. > :55:41.what international war says. Until we have clear international law,
:55:41. > :55:51.there will always be suspicion that we intervene when there is oil, if
:55:51. > :55:52.
:55:52. > :55:56.there is not, somehow we don't see The man in the blue shirt? There
:55:56. > :55:59.are so many countries in the world with problems. You can't going to
:56:00. > :56:04.everyone. But it's hard to know how they pick and choose. Of course
:56:04. > :56:09.there will be oil deals for Britain and France. Of course that was at
:56:09. > :56:12.the top of Cameron and Sarkozy's minds when they went in. Was at the
:56:12. > :56:17.main reason? Probably not. Would they have had the success with
:56:17. > :56:21.targeted bombing in Syria? Probably not. It has to be a bit tongue-in-
:56:21. > :56:28.cheek with the British, who they support, their history in the world
:56:28. > :56:34.is not exactly a white slate. just like to expand on that last
:56:34. > :56:39.I's point. Two weeks ago in the Independent, about the rendition
:56:39. > :56:43.programme, Britain and America had been sending prisoners to be
:56:44. > :56:49.brittle the interrogated in countries like Libya. Do you think
:56:49. > :56:52.that the British and French were right to go in? I think it is right
:56:52. > :56:58.for Gaddafi to step down, but I think this is typical Western
:56:58. > :57:02.imperialism. At a brief comment? I'm saddened by that comment. I
:57:02. > :57:09.thought Nigel's remarks were very interesting. This was a really,
:57:09. > :57:15.really bad man. He was a tyrant. He was a torturer. And he's gone. At a
:57:15. > :57:19.very good thing. We can't go into every country. People talk about
:57:19. > :57:23.Syria and other places. In this case, there was about to be a
:57:23. > :57:29.massacre. The Arab League and NATO works together to get a UN
:57:30. > :57:36.resolution. In all of the discussions that I saw, it was a
:57:36. > :57:41.serious legal recommendation by the Attorney-General. It was discussed
:57:41. > :57:46.very openly. Oil was not mentioned by anybody. It was to stop a
:57:46. > :57:50.dreadful massacre, by a tyrant Command Europe's doorstep. Diane
:57:50. > :57:54.was right. We don't know how it will pan out, but we hope that
:57:54. > :58:00.Libya will develop into a free, prosperous country. The fact that
:58:00. > :58:04.Gaddafi is not there this evening, that two properly elected Western
:58:04. > :58:08.politicians go to Benghazi and Tripoli and are welcomed, it has to
:58:08. > :58:13.beat a good thing. That brings us pretty much to the end. Just to
:58:13. > :58:18.clarify what was said to day in Tripoli, Mustafa Abdul-Jalil said,
:58:18. > :58:23.while agreeing there were no previous arrangements with allies
:58:23. > :58:27.and friends, as a faithful Muslim people we will appreciate these
:58:27. > :58:31.efforts and they will have priority. Within a framework of transparency.
:58:31. > :58:35.Make of that what you can! Next week we are going to be in
:58:35. > :58:39.Birmingham. It is the Liberal Democrat conference. Among those on
:58:39. > :58:49.the table, Vince Cable, Harriet Harman, Ian Hislop and the founder
:58:49. > :58:54.