2:37:42 > 2:37:46After one of the hottest autumn days since the 1890s,
2:37:46 > 2:37:50no respite for our panel in this hot studio in Liverpool.
2:37:50 > 2:37:52Welcome to Question Time.
2:37:59 > 2:38:03On the panel, housing minister, Grant Shapps,
2:38:03 > 2:38:06shadow communities secretary, Caroline Flint,
2:38:06 > 2:38:08president of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron,
2:38:08 > 2:38:11tipped as a possible future leader of the party.
2:38:11 > 2:38:14Broadcaster and author, Janet Street-Porter,
2:38:14 > 2:38:18and the Daily Telegraph's chief political commentator, Peter Oborne.
2:38:18 > 2:38:23APPLAUSE
2:38:32 > 2:38:35Thank you very much. The first question is from Brian Berry.
2:38:35 > 2:38:39Should the speed limit on our motorways be increased to 80mph,
2:38:39 > 2:38:41or scrapped altogether?
2:38:41 > 2:38:44This government is putting this forward for consultation,
2:38:44 > 2:38:46and it's clear the government intends to go ahead.
2:38:46 > 2:38:49Caroline Flint, do you approve, 80mph?
2:38:49 > 2:38:54Erm, I think if there's evidence that suggests it wouldn't do harm
2:38:54 > 2:39:00and it can be enforced, then I think it's worth having a look at.
2:39:00 > 2:39:02The only thing I would say, David,
2:39:02 > 2:39:07is you have to take into account, if you go up from 70mph up to 80mph,
2:39:07 > 2:39:11that's 20% more fuel that will be used.
2:39:11 > 2:39:15So there's issues about the cost for the person driving the car.
2:39:15 > 2:39:17But everybody would get to work sooner,
2:39:17 > 2:39:21because you go faster and get there quicker.
2:39:21 > 2:39:24But I'm talking about how much fuel you use.
2:39:24 > 2:39:26What worries me about this,
2:39:26 > 2:39:28and I'm not saying it shouldn't happen,
2:39:28 > 2:39:32but we've seen decisions made, for example,
2:39:32 > 2:39:36not fund speed cameras, reducing safety grants available,
2:39:36 > 2:39:40cut down on police, which will mean motorway police.
2:39:40 > 2:39:43These are important factors about how we manage our roads.
2:39:43 > 2:39:47Who's to say that if it's 80, people don't go up to 90?
2:39:47 > 2:39:48Well, they go 80 when it's 70.
2:39:48 > 2:39:51The point is that as soon as you push it up,
2:39:51 > 2:39:54- it might go up another level. - Are you for or against?
2:39:54 > 2:39:57I would like to see the evidence from the government.
2:39:57 > 2:39:59I think there are some issues.
2:39:59 > 2:40:04the targets to try to reduce deaths by car accident have been scrapped,
2:40:04 > 2:40:07and with that some of the safety grants on road safety,
2:40:07 > 2:40:11and potential cuts in motorway police to manage the roads.
2:40:11 > 2:40:12That should worry us
2:40:12 > 2:40:15if we're going to start raising the speed on motorways.
2:40:15 > 2:40:18OK. Grant Shapps.
2:40:18 > 2:40:21There is an argument for having another look at this.
2:40:21 > 2:40:23I am less sceptical about consultations
2:40:23 > 2:40:26since I've been in government and seen that evidence does come in
2:40:26 > 2:40:28and it's usually very carefully looked at.
2:40:28 > 2:40:30As a minister, I take great care to study
2:40:30 > 2:40:33what people come back with in consultations.
2:40:33 > 2:40:36I think it is a genuine question. I think there are benefits.
2:40:36 > 2:40:40One thing which has happened, if you think back to the '60s and '70s,
2:40:40 > 2:40:43the cars that were being driven around at the time,
2:40:43 > 2:40:46they wouldn't have had the brake systems that exist now,
2:40:46 > 2:40:49so I think there is a very good argument
2:40:49 > 2:40:51that actually better technology allows a slightly faster speed.
2:40:51 > 2:40:53For people who've driven on the Continent,
2:40:53 > 2:40:56and I don't just mean the autobahn in Germany,
2:40:56 > 2:40:59but almost anywhere on the Continent,
2:40:59 > 2:41:04it will tend to be I think 140kph, about 80mph.
2:41:04 > 2:41:07It seems to be the new standard, so I think it's worth looking at.
2:41:07 > 2:41:11Janet Street-Porter, you ride a bicycle, or on your feet, if you can.
2:41:11 > 2:41:12I like walking and I think
2:41:12 > 2:41:16there's too much aggressive driving on motorways as it is.
2:41:16 > 2:41:19I'm not very happy about this.
2:41:19 > 2:41:23Most people on motorways, as you said earlier, with a 70mph limit,
2:41:23 > 2:41:28do 80, and if it's 80mph, they'll be doing 90.
2:41:28 > 2:41:32Driving on a motorway, I find programmes like Top Gear
2:41:32 > 2:41:38have made people think the motorway is an official race track.
2:41:38 > 2:41:39I think your lot,
2:41:39 > 2:41:43coming up with this increasing the motorway speed limit,
2:41:43 > 2:41:47it's a crowd-pleasing, cheap thing to do.
2:41:47 > 2:41:49You're not doing that well in the opinion polls,
2:41:49 > 2:41:52you've clawed back a bit this week, and this is a cheap vote-winner.
2:41:52 > 2:41:54Everybody wants to be Jeremy Clarkson!
2:41:54 > 2:41:57APPLAUSE
2:41:58 > 2:42:02No, David, men want to be Jeremy Clarkson.
2:42:02 > 2:42:05I don't think you'll find one woman in this audience
2:42:05 > 2:42:07who wants a backside like that.
2:42:09 > 2:42:11Don't be personal, but I don't...
2:42:11 > 2:42:13The man there.
2:42:13 > 2:42:16Personally for me, I do a lot of motorway driving.
2:42:16 > 2:42:20I wouldn't mind it going up to 80, but the problem for me is
2:42:20 > 2:42:24future generations, carbon footprint and stuff,
2:42:24 > 2:42:25I think it would affect them more.
2:42:25 > 2:42:29But to get the carbon footprint right you have to go to 54 mph,
2:42:29 > 2:42:33is that right, Tim Farron? You're a liberal!
2:42:33 > 2:42:35And we know about these things, yes.
2:42:35 > 2:42:37What do you think about the 80mph limit?
2:42:37 > 2:42:39It's fine to have a consultation.
2:42:39 > 2:42:42As long as it is looked at in every direction.
2:42:42 > 2:42:44Points have been raised as to why it's not a good idea,
2:42:44 > 2:42:46and I agree with them.
2:42:46 > 2:42:50There are three considerations. One, the impact on the environment.
2:42:50 > 2:42:53The faster you go, the worse for the environment.
2:42:53 > 2:42:56Second, the faster you go the more likely people are to have accidents,
2:42:56 > 2:43:00irrespective of the fact that cars are safer these days.
2:43:00 > 2:43:04There are more of them, too. And the third thing is the economy,
2:43:04 > 2:43:07will people getting to destinations quicker be better for the economy?
2:43:07 > 2:43:11Maybe. But anybody who travels on the M6 can tell you
2:43:11 > 2:43:14that if you get up to 40 you're doing well!
2:43:14 > 2:43:17Have the consultation, but we should look at the evidence
2:43:17 > 2:43:20and decide to stick as we are if that's how it concludes.
2:43:20 > 2:43:22The man in the striped shirt.
2:43:22 > 2:43:26Equally, the problem is people driving too slowly on motorways,
2:43:26 > 2:43:29which is just as dangerous because you get massive congestion.
2:43:29 > 2:43:33People drive in the middle lane at 50 and everybody gets irate.
2:43:33 > 2:43:36I think that would also help.
2:43:36 > 2:43:38You think they should be made to watch Top Gear
2:43:38 > 2:43:40and learn how to drive on the motorway?
2:43:40 > 2:43:43There should be a minimum speed the police can enforce,
2:43:43 > 2:43:47because it is equally as dangerous, I think.
2:43:47 > 2:43:50We haven't got any women's hands up. Yes.
2:43:50 > 2:43:51The woman at the very back,
2:43:51 > 2:43:54and then I'll come to you in the second row from the back.
2:43:54 > 2:43:59With regards to the adverts shown on television, where they show that
2:43:59 > 2:44:02if you're going 40mph compared to 30, the impact
2:44:02 > 2:44:05of a child being dragged so much further down the street,
2:44:05 > 2:44:08surely if you're going down the motorway,
2:44:08 > 2:44:10someone doesn't have a seatbelt on,
2:44:10 > 2:44:12they'll go further through the window
2:44:12 > 2:44:14and have far more fatalities.
2:44:14 > 2:44:17You would be against the change? Peter Oborne, are you for or against?
2:44:17 > 2:44:22I'm very strongly in favour of this change to 80mph.
2:44:22 > 2:44:25One of the good things which this government is doing
2:44:25 > 2:44:30is getting rid of unnecessary laws and regulations.
2:44:30 > 2:44:32And there's a bigger point here as well.
2:44:32 > 2:44:35It's very important that laws should be treated with respect
2:44:35 > 2:44:36when we have them.
2:44:36 > 2:44:38The fact is, none of the people round this panel,
2:44:38 > 2:44:42and I suspect very few people in the audience,
2:44:42 > 2:44:43actually ever take any notice
2:44:43 > 2:44:47when there's a clear run on the motorway of that 70mph limit.
2:44:47 > 2:44:50Let's have a limit which people respect,
2:44:50 > 2:44:54and let's get rid of more laws which people simply don't observe,
2:44:54 > 2:44:58like the ludicrous hunting ban, for instance. Let's get rid of that.
2:44:58 > 2:45:00APPLAUSE
2:45:04 > 2:45:07The woman there.
2:45:07 > 2:45:09The woman there, yes, you.
2:45:09 > 2:45:13Will the government's consultation include measuring how much
2:45:13 > 2:45:17extra fuel tax they might rake in from us drivers?
2:45:17 > 2:45:20- You think there's a hidden agenda? - Definitely.
2:45:20 > 2:45:23The more fuel, the more the government gets.
2:45:23 > 2:45:26It's like the more you smoke, and they try to stop you.
2:45:26 > 2:45:28That's a new conspiracy theory, like Janet's one
2:45:28 > 2:45:32about men all watching Top Gear and wanting to be Jeremy Clarkson,
2:45:32 > 2:45:34which I don't and don't, by the way.
2:45:34 > 2:45:36How do you know, if you don't watch it?
2:45:36 > 2:45:39I don't watch it and I don't want to be him.
2:45:39 > 2:45:42You don't know you don't want to be Jeremy Clarkson
2:45:42 > 2:45:44- if you don't watch it. - Might be getting pedantic,
2:45:44 > 2:45:46but the point it,
2:45:46 > 2:45:50there's probably no-one in this audience at some point
2:45:50 > 2:45:53who hasn't been on an open piece of motorway...
2:45:53 > 2:45:56No-one's talking about roads where there's a kid walking by,
2:45:56 > 2:46:00people should be wearing seatbelts, but no-one can sit here today
2:46:00 > 2:46:03and say there's never been an open bit of road
2:46:03 > 2:46:07and you've wondered why the speed limit is set at 70,
2:46:07 > 2:46:11when there would be no difficulty in driving a bit faster.
2:46:11 > 2:46:13I think it's worth looking at,
2:46:13 > 2:46:16and if it enables people to get to place a bit faster...
2:46:16 > 2:46:20That is a completely spurious argument, about as spurious
2:46:20 > 2:46:23as your high-speed rail up the middle of England
2:46:23 > 2:46:26vandalising the whole of the centre of the country
2:46:26 > 2:46:28to get people to Birmingham 20 minutes faster.
2:46:28 > 2:46:33Why is getting anywhere ten minutes faster so desirable?
2:46:33 > 2:46:36Of all the personal freedoms you could give me,
2:46:36 > 2:46:39giving me the freedom to get somewhere ten minutes faster
2:46:39 > 2:46:41going 80mph is ludicrous.
2:46:41 > 2:46:43No doubt people will have made these arguments
2:46:43 > 2:46:45when instead of horse-drawn carriage,
2:46:45 > 2:46:48they decided to build railways in the first place.
2:46:48 > 2:46:52I think this is an absolutely Dickensian argument.
2:46:52 > 2:46:55Going faster doesn't mean you're more modern.
2:46:55 > 2:46:59In future, the people with the most money will be going the slowest.
2:46:59 > 2:47:03We'll see over time.
2:47:03 > 2:47:05APPLAUSE
2:47:08 > 2:47:10You in the brown pullover.
2:47:10 > 2:47:13Peter said that raising the limit to 80
2:47:13 > 2:47:16would make people respect the speed limit more.
2:47:16 > 2:47:17I'm in favour of the change,
2:47:17 > 2:47:19but has he seen any evidence
2:47:19 > 2:47:22that people would stick to that speed limit?
2:47:22 > 2:47:23What I was saying was,
2:47:23 > 2:47:27let's not have a limit which nobody in this country observes.
2:47:27 > 2:47:29Let's have a limit which people do observe.
2:47:29 > 2:47:33If you have a limit of 80mph which people observed,
2:47:33 > 2:47:35there will be respect for the law.
2:47:35 > 2:47:38The problem is that we have politicians who invent laws
2:47:38 > 2:47:42and create laws which are never meant to be observed.
2:47:42 > 2:47:44- Let's have respect for that law. - But why would they follow it?
2:47:44 > 2:47:48What is the evidence that 10mph more will make a difference?
2:47:48 > 2:47:52I'm suggesting that when you do have a sensible speed limit,
2:47:52 > 2:47:54you do enforce it seriously.
2:47:54 > 2:47:56If you raise the speed limit to 80, the question is
2:47:56 > 2:47:59looking at the evidence about the impact on safety
2:47:59 > 2:48:02and how it will be enforced. I think the point the young man's making
2:48:02 > 2:48:04is that people go over 70
2:48:04 > 2:48:09and we know that, but they'll probably go within a range of 70-75.
2:48:09 > 2:48:11If you start bumping it up,
2:48:11 > 2:48:14will people bump up the norm for going over the speed limit?
2:48:14 > 2:48:16I'm not advocating going over the speed limit,
2:48:16 > 2:48:18but I'm talking about human behaviour.
2:48:18 > 2:48:20It's like a Marx Brothers movie.
2:48:20 > 2:48:23Make it 80, then 90, then 100.
2:48:23 > 2:48:27It's like drinking The minute you tell people "You're only supposed
2:48:27 > 2:48:30"to drink 14 or 21 units", ha, ha, ha. How many of us stick to that?
2:48:30 > 2:48:34We don't, as a nation, stick to rules, do we?
2:48:34 > 2:48:36My postbag is more full of people
2:48:36 > 2:48:40concerned about people driving too fast than not driving fast enough.
2:48:40 > 2:48:45At the bottom end, people in residential areas, rural Cumbria,
2:48:45 > 2:48:49are concerned that the speed limit of 30 should come down to 20.
2:48:49 > 2:48:52The police will tell you they don't have the resources to enforce it,
2:48:52 > 2:48:54but those limits do enforce themselves.
2:48:54 > 2:48:57If it's at 30, people drive at 38.
2:48:57 > 2:49:01- If it's 20, they drive at 28. - That's because of the fining system.
2:49:01 > 2:49:06You can use cameras now on average speeds, which you couldn't before.
2:49:06 > 2:49:10- You're ending the funding of speed cameras.- The woman there?
2:49:10 > 2:49:14Isn't this just another example of another policy proposal
2:49:14 > 2:49:18that is for the business community who want to get their trucks there
2:49:18 > 2:49:1920 minutes early,
2:49:19 > 2:49:23instead of something that would benefit normal people more,
2:49:23 > 2:49:26and it is also a gimmick, a crowd-pleasing gimmick,
2:49:26 > 2:49:27as Janet said.
2:49:27 > 2:49:31Isn't that just another example of a time-wasting policy?
2:49:31 > 2:49:35It's not pleasing you, and it's not pleasing a lot of people here.
2:49:35 > 2:49:37Perhaps one of the things to consult about
2:49:37 > 2:49:39is whether it's a crowd-pleasing gimmick.
2:49:39 > 2:49:42The idea that you should never look at laws
2:49:42 > 2:49:44that were put in place in the '60s and '70s is crazy.
2:49:44 > 2:49:49Just because it benefits businesses and gets haulage companies
2:49:49 > 2:49:51and all of us around faster, the idea that it doesn't
2:49:51 > 2:49:54have a knock-on effect on jobs is of course not true as well.
2:49:54 > 2:49:56Join in this debate if you want:
2:50:05 > 2:50:07We go now to a question from Gwyneth Evans.
2:50:07 > 2:50:11Is the eurozone a burning building with no exits?
2:50:11 > 2:50:14This is a quote from William Hague, the Foreign Secretary,
2:50:14 > 2:50:17who said that's what he thought it was
2:50:17 > 2:50:21and that powers should be returned from Europe and the rest of it.
2:50:21 > 2:50:24Tim Farron, are you a supporter of the eurozone,
2:50:24 > 2:50:27or is it a burning building, as your Foreign Secretary said?
2:50:27 > 2:50:31I would say it's a building on fire,
2:50:31 > 2:50:33and the number of exits are limited.
2:50:33 > 2:50:38The fact that they are in the euro has limited the number of exits.
2:50:38 > 2:50:42I think William Hague is saying that, I guess to make the point
2:50:42 > 2:50:44that he was right as Tory leader
2:50:44 > 2:50:46to say we shouldn't have gone into the euro.
2:50:46 > 2:50:49In retrospect, you can't argue with that.
2:50:49 > 2:50:51Do you think it was the right decision?
2:50:51 > 2:50:57Absolutely. Is the house on fire? Yes. Did the euro set it on fire?
2:50:57 > 2:50:58No, it didn't. The fact
2:50:58 > 2:51:01that governments have overspent and banks have overlent
2:51:01 > 2:51:05is the reason for fire across the world. The US doesn't have the euro.
2:51:05 > 2:51:06We don't have the euro,
2:51:06 > 2:51:11and we have huge, crippling financial problems that need to be tackled.
2:51:11 > 2:51:13We're in north-west England.
2:51:13 > 2:51:14We have an affinity with Ireland,
2:51:14 > 2:51:17culturally and economically. The talk is of Greece,
2:51:17 > 2:51:20but don't forget our friends and cousins over the water here.
2:51:20 > 2:51:23We need to protect them, for our economy.
2:51:23 > 2:51:25There are thousands of jobs in the north-west
2:51:25 > 2:51:29that depend on the eurozone not going down. It's vital.
2:51:29 > 2:51:32Peter Oborne.
2:51:32 > 2:51:36I so agree that we have to care about our cousins in Ireland.
2:51:36 > 2:51:41And the way the Irish will recover is by getting out of the euro.
2:51:41 > 2:51:44If Ireland got out of the euro,
2:51:44 > 2:51:47their economy would start to recover strongly tomorrow afternoon.
2:51:47 > 2:51:49The same applies to Greece.
2:51:49 > 2:51:54If they got out of the euro and went back to the drachma,
2:51:54 > 2:51:57their economy would start to recover tomorrow afternoon.
2:51:57 > 2:52:00I'm not going to let off Tim Farron lightly.
2:52:00 > 2:52:05His party pushed for this country to go into the euro.
2:52:05 > 2:52:07If we had taken his advice,
2:52:07 > 2:52:10we would now be in the same degraded state
2:52:10 > 2:52:14as Portugal, as Spain,
2:52:14 > 2:52:19as Italy. The Chief Secretary to the Treasury is Danny Alexander,
2:52:19 > 2:52:24the economic ignoramus who tried to drive us into the euro.
2:52:24 > 2:52:27He headed the campaign for the euro for five full years,
2:52:27 > 2:52:31and then at the Lib Dem conference two weeks ago, he had the audacity
2:52:31 > 2:52:35to say that us Euro-sceptics were enemies of growth.
2:52:35 > 2:52:38If he had had his way, there wouldn't be growth in this country.
2:52:38 > 2:52:40This is history, Peter.
2:52:40 > 2:52:44- I wanted to remind everybody. - But we didn't go into the euro.
2:52:44 > 2:52:47I know you have it in for those who thought we should,
2:52:47 > 2:52:49but they didn't win.
2:52:49 > 2:52:51Your lot won the argument.
2:52:51 > 2:52:56We have to thank the good sense of the British people, actually,
2:52:56 > 2:53:00for not taking us in at the end of the day,
2:53:00 > 2:53:02because Tony Blair didn't dare to do it.
2:53:02 > 2:53:05But the truth now is
2:53:05 > 2:53:09that the solution to this problem for countries like Ireland
2:53:09 > 2:53:13and Greece is to get out of the euro as soon as they possibly can.
2:53:13 > 2:53:15The woman in the second row?
2:53:15 > 2:53:19I think we should cut all ties with the European Union altogether.
2:53:19 > 2:53:21It's ruined our economy.
2:53:21 > 2:53:24I think that the British people should have the right to vote
2:53:24 > 2:53:26whether we want it or not.
2:53:26 > 2:53:30Like the Liberal Democrats, they wanted a referendum to see
2:53:30 > 2:53:33if they could get in in 2015. You've got no chance.
2:53:33 > 2:53:37Where's our vote for the European Union?
2:53:37 > 2:53:40Grant Shapps, you should get out altogether?
2:53:40 > 2:53:43The Foreign Secretary said you should repatriate powers.
2:53:43 > 2:53:46We are an island. we should have the right
2:53:46 > 2:53:47whether we want to be in.
2:53:47 > 2:53:50Ask the British people that pay into the system.
2:53:50 > 2:53:53- Grant Shapps?- Our coalition partners don't believe we should get out.
2:53:53 > 2:53:58I heard Tim say it would be wrong for us to put that on the table.
2:53:58 > 2:54:01Does that mean you think we should get out?
2:54:01 > 2:54:04I think we should have powers repatriated.
2:54:04 > 2:54:06I can see that whilst we're in a coalition
2:54:06 > 2:54:10during this period of trying to stop our country being in that building
2:54:10 > 2:54:13as well, it's important to concentrate on
2:54:13 > 2:54:16dealing with our own debt. And we're doing that.
2:54:16 > 2:54:18It's one of the reasons we're able
2:54:18 > 2:54:21to borrow at historically low levels of interest rates
2:54:21 > 2:54:25whilst in many places in Europe, it's become incredibly expensive.
2:54:25 > 2:54:30William Hague is right to say that the building is on fire.
2:54:30 > 2:54:33I think there is an opportunity that the European leaders have
2:54:33 > 2:54:36to douse those flames, but they have to move
2:54:36 > 2:54:39very quick. There are 17 countries in the euro
2:54:39 > 2:54:43who need to put these plans through. We saw the Germans take that step.
2:54:43 > 2:54:45These are just the plans from June or July.
2:54:45 > 2:54:47They need to get ahead of the curve.
2:54:47 > 2:54:49They're trying to catch up all the time.
2:54:49 > 2:54:50They need to be ahead of this.
2:54:50 > 2:54:54They need to deal with the debt crisis.
2:54:54 > 2:54:58You sound more optimistic than William Hague,
2:54:58 > 2:54:59because the interpretation
2:54:59 > 2:55:03of a burning building with no exits is disastrous. You don't get out.
2:55:03 > 2:55:06That's the result of me reading the rest of his interview.
2:55:06 > 2:55:08"I once said it was like a burning building".
2:55:08 > 2:55:13"..And I was right". What's different about the interview?
2:55:13 > 2:55:17It looks like the doors are blocked, the windows are jammed
2:55:17 > 2:55:20and it's difficult to get out. We don't have to end up
2:55:20 > 2:55:23in that situation. If the European economy is in the euro,
2:55:23 > 2:55:26it's their responsibility to resolve, get together,
2:55:26 > 2:55:30and have the political leadership and will to sort it out.
2:55:30 > 2:55:32Then it can be done. The trouble is,
2:55:32 > 2:55:34they're behind the curve at every stage at the moment.
2:55:34 > 2:55:38They've got a window of opportunity until the Cannes summit
2:55:38 > 2:55:39to get this sorted out.
2:55:39 > 2:55:43- The man in the black and white shirt?- I'm listening to the panel,
2:55:43 > 2:55:47and I'm perplexed because everyone's on about the euro.
2:55:47 > 2:55:50At the end of the day,
2:55:50 > 2:55:52the people sat in this room will be bailing this country out.
2:55:52 > 2:55:57If Greece defaults on its loan,
2:55:57 > 2:56:00you are going to come to this country and say
2:56:00 > 2:56:03"We need money because we're skint", in a nutshell.
2:56:03 > 2:56:06If Ireland defaults on its loan,
2:56:06 > 2:56:09how is Mr Osborne going to get his seven billion euro loan
2:56:09 > 2:56:11back from Ireland?
2:56:11 > 2:56:16I think it's a valid point and it worries a lot of people.
2:56:16 > 2:56:20- We're not part of the European Stability Fund.- We pay into it.
2:56:20 > 2:56:25- No, we pay into the IMF fund.- But it's going to cost us something?
2:56:25 > 2:56:29Of course it will. If those economies go to the wall,
2:56:29 > 2:56:31if there are problems in Europe,
2:56:31 > 2:56:34one of our biggest markets, of course that's a problem for us.
2:56:34 > 2:56:37You mention the Ireland money, the seven billion or so.
2:56:37 > 2:56:40I think it hasn't been called on as yet, but Ireland and Britain
2:56:40 > 2:56:42have a more interconnected economy
2:56:42 > 2:56:45than many others, and certainly than we do with Greece.
2:56:45 > 2:56:48- The woman on the right? - Is it possible to be a Eurosceptic
2:56:48 > 2:56:53and pro-Europe by looking at the European Union
2:56:53 > 2:56:54as a potential Commonwealth,
2:56:54 > 2:56:57more loosely constructed than the European Union,
2:56:57 > 2:56:59but as a Commonwealth reflective
2:56:59 > 2:57:02of why our own Commonwealth survives and why it's so strong.
2:57:02 > 2:57:06Why can't the countries of Europe cooperate, work together,
2:57:06 > 2:57:11- but be a more loosely bound Commonwealth?- Caroline Flint?
2:57:11 > 2:57:15- I call myself a European pragmatist. - Would you call yourself that?
2:57:15 > 2:57:17That's a new expression.
2:57:17 > 2:57:19What I mean by that
2:57:19 > 2:57:23is that we have such important trading links with Europe.
2:57:23 > 2:57:27It's our biggest market. In terms of where we send our goods and the jobs
2:57:27 > 2:57:31it creates, a lot of people in this country depend on the jobs
2:57:31 > 2:57:34because of those connections with Europe. Difficult at the moment,
2:57:34 > 2:57:36because they're not growing
2:57:36 > 2:57:38and therefore, we're not receiving our exports.
2:57:38 > 2:57:42I'm a pragmatist because I would agree
2:57:42 > 2:57:45that there are a number of occasions over the years
2:57:45 > 2:57:46where the European Union
2:57:46 > 2:57:49has seemed to overcomplicate and involved in matters
2:57:49 > 2:57:52which have caused a lot of scepticism in this country.
2:57:52 > 2:57:54But the problem for us is this.
2:57:54 > 2:57:55One thing I should say -
2:57:55 > 2:57:58I'm pleased that when the decisions were being made
2:57:58 > 2:58:02under the Labour government, we did choose not to go into the euro.
2:58:02 > 2:58:04That was one of the best decisions we made.
2:58:04 > 2:58:07It was Gordon Brown's decision. But where we are now is
2:58:07 > 2:58:09a bit like the Ireland situation.
2:58:09 > 2:58:13If Ireland goes under and other parts of the European Union go under,
2:58:13 > 2:58:16we can't sit as an island outside of that.
2:58:16 > 2:58:21What I would say to Grant is, there's a G20 summit in November,
2:58:21 > 2:58:24which is the most powerful economies in the world.
2:58:24 > 2:58:27It's meant to be happening in France. I do believe,
2:58:27 > 2:58:32given that we're not party to some of the decisions in Eurozone countries,
2:58:32 > 2:58:36that the Prime Minister should say "Bring that summit forward.
2:58:36 > 2:58:38"You've said it's an emergency."
2:58:38 > 2:58:41By bringing that summit forward, at least we can get ourselves
2:58:41 > 2:58:42and others around the table,
2:58:42 > 2:58:45including the French, and have discussions in detail
2:58:45 > 2:58:48about how to deal with this very difficult situation.
2:58:48 > 2:58:51APPLAUSE
2:58:51 > 2:58:55The woman at the very back there? Two in from the gangway.
2:58:55 > 2:58:58Earlier in the week, a market trader appeared on the BBC,
2:58:58 > 2:59:01and he predicted that in 12 months' time,
2:59:01 > 2:59:04people's savings would start vanishing from their bank accounts.
2:59:04 > 2:59:08Does the panel think there is truth in this statement, and if they do,
2:59:08 > 2:59:13what can ordinary people do to prepare for this situation?
2:59:13 > 2:59:17That is the kind of worry that people have. Janet Street-Porter,
2:59:17 > 2:59:19what do you think about the situation we're in?
2:59:19 > 2:59:23I'm glad we're not in the eurozone.
2:59:23 > 2:59:27I look at the EU, and when people talk about turning it round,
2:59:27 > 2:59:31it's not like a burning building, it's like a tanker or something.
2:59:31 > 2:59:34It's like the world's most luxurious tanker.
2:59:34 > 2:59:37The one thing about Europe is what it's cost us.
2:59:37 > 2:59:42Isn't it fascinating that all these MEPs of all political persuasions,
2:59:42 > 2:59:47once they go to Brussels and are signed up to massive expenses,
2:59:47 > 2:59:51this gorgeous lifestyle in Brussels, on our money...
2:59:51 > 2:59:53APPLAUSE
2:59:53 > 2:59:56Suddenly they can see all the justification
2:59:56 > 2:59:59for all this legislation that in many,
2:59:59 > 3:00:04many ways has had a detrimental effect on Britain.
3:00:04 > 3:00:06You go around Europe, and I travel
3:00:06 > 3:00:10around Europe a lot, and you see that in other European countries,
3:00:10 > 3:00:14how they interpret health and safety and food standards
3:00:14 > 3:00:15is completely variable.
3:00:15 > 3:00:19It's like a club where everybody has their own set of rules.
3:00:19 > 3:00:20So I find it bizarre
3:00:20 > 3:00:23that now the eurozone and strong countries like France
3:00:23 > 3:00:26and Germany have to bite the bullet and bail out Greece.
3:00:26 > 3:00:30I find that incredible as a concept.
3:00:30 > 3:00:33Grant Shapps, the point the woman made about savings -
3:00:33 > 3:00:36- do you think there is a danger?- I think the answer is, in this country,
3:00:36 > 3:00:39through two measures, the danger is less.
3:00:39 > 3:00:41One is that the banks were recapitalised,
3:00:41 > 3:00:44a measure which was very expensive. They're paying it back.
3:00:44 > 3:00:48They need to pay more back, but it's being done.
3:00:48 > 3:00:51Secondly, the country itself is paying down its debts.
3:00:51 > 3:00:53Whatever you think about the cuts,
3:00:53 > 3:00:56no doubt we'll have arguments about those things, but the truth is
3:00:56 > 3:01:00that foreign countries are still prepared to lend to Britain.
3:01:00 > 3:01:03Because of that, we're much less likely to have those problems.
3:01:03 > 3:01:08That's why we're not like Greece, as yourselves and the Liberal Democrats
3:01:08 > 3:01:10tried to make out for all these months.
3:01:10 > 3:01:14Sorry, now you're changing your tune.
3:01:14 > 3:01:18You claimed it was your government that stopped us going into the euro,
3:01:18 > 3:01:20which happened under the Major government.
3:01:20 > 3:01:23Secondly, we were in the position of Greece,
3:01:23 > 3:01:26in fact with a bigger budget deficit
3:01:26 > 3:01:28than Greece, until we started to cut it.
3:01:28 > 3:01:34APPLAUSE
3:01:34 > 3:01:38The burning building is not the eurozone, it's Europe.
3:01:38 > 3:01:44Burning £40 million a day, £280 million a week.
3:01:44 > 3:01:49What we're going through now, that £280 million wouldn't half go well
3:01:49 > 3:01:53on saving hospitals, firefighters' jobs
3:01:53 > 3:01:57and saving public sector workers. That's what we should be doing.
3:01:57 > 3:02:00I was a supporter of Europe, and now Europe has turned
3:02:00 > 3:02:07into the most embarrassing boys' club I've ever seen in my life.
3:02:07 > 3:02:13Euro MPs, it's like, "Bang, I've won the lottery again."
3:02:13 > 3:02:14It is an absolute embarrassment.
3:02:14 > 3:02:20Let's get out of it and put the money in saving British jobs!
3:02:20 > 3:02:21CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
3:02:28 > 3:02:30Tim Farron, the Foreign Secretary
3:02:30 > 3:02:32said that powers should be returned to the UK from Europe,
3:02:32 > 3:02:35which is presumably what you would like as a start?
3:02:35 > 3:02:39What powers would you like to see returned from Europe to us?
3:02:39 > 3:02:42The main power that the UK government can exercise over Europe
3:02:42 > 3:02:45is to scrutinise those things that come out of the European Union.
3:02:45 > 3:02:49If you go around the Continent, most countries devote time
3:02:49 > 3:02:51to scrutinising European legislation. We don't.
3:02:51 > 3:02:54We have quite a poisonous relationship with the EU.
3:02:54 > 3:02:58The clear sense of hostility to Europe is tangible here tonight.
3:02:58 > 3:03:00No powers returned in your view?
3:03:00 > 3:03:02The point is making a case for Europe.
3:03:02 > 3:03:05But William Hague, the Foreign Secretary, I hate to say,
3:03:05 > 3:03:08you are in a coalition, I know you don't like
3:03:08 > 3:03:12being in coalition with the Tories, you want a divorce
3:03:12 > 3:03:14within three years or whatever, maybe you're thinking
3:03:14 > 3:03:17of having an affair with Labour, you know,
3:03:17 > 3:03:20but you are in the coalition...
3:03:20 > 3:03:24That got too complicated. I think I might need an injunction.
3:03:24 > 3:03:26You are in a coalition.
3:03:26 > 3:03:29Are you saying that the Liberal Democrats are against that?
3:03:29 > 3:03:32The point is this, we have the European Union,
3:03:32 > 3:03:35which is clearly not popular in this country.
3:03:35 > 3:03:37It is a really difficult situation.
3:03:37 > 3:03:38People like myself,
3:03:38 > 3:03:42those who are pro-Europe and probably the majority around this table
3:03:42 > 3:03:44believe we should remain part of the EU,
3:03:44 > 3:03:46but we, if we're not careful,
3:03:46 > 3:03:50end up apologists for some of the nonsense coming out of Brussels.
3:03:50 > 3:03:52You're right to point to the gravy train.
3:03:52 > 3:03:54Some of the ludicrous decisions.
3:03:54 > 3:03:57It took Europe 18 years to decide how to define chocolate!
3:03:57 > 3:04:02That's an easy hit. Even the Commission knows...
3:04:02 > 3:04:03The point I'm making is
3:04:03 > 3:04:07we need to aim high and make the argument for Europe.
3:04:07 > 3:04:09How about this, next week...
3:04:09 > 3:04:13..The MPs are who stealing our money!
3:04:13 > 3:04:15- The bottom line... - We don't use it.
3:04:15 > 3:04:17How come we've got to... the Euro MPs?
3:04:17 > 3:04:19Let me bring in...
3:04:19 > 3:04:22I would like to add something to the very eloquent points
3:04:22 > 3:04:25being made by the gentleman in the front row.
3:04:25 > 3:04:27You agree with him?
3:04:27 > 3:04:30I agree with everything he has said, he's brilliant.
3:04:30 > 3:04:33APPLAUSE
3:04:36 > 3:04:38Should be an MEP. But I want to add something else.
3:04:38 > 3:04:43I want to say something else which is very frightening,
3:04:43 > 3:04:46very chilling, is the sheer brutality of the European Union.
3:04:46 > 3:04:51What they are doing, in order to keep their euro going,
3:04:51 > 3:04:54which Tim Farron here supports so much,
3:04:54 > 3:04:59they are driving countries to bankruptcy.
3:04:59 > 3:05:03They are driving hundreds of millions of people out of work.
3:05:03 > 3:05:06There's 46% youth unemployment in Spain
3:05:06 > 3:05:07as a direct result of the euro.
3:05:07 > 3:05:12In the '80s, when Margaret Thatcher was doing her monetarism
3:05:12 > 3:05:15and wasaccused by the left of being an evil, ugly woman
3:05:15 > 3:05:17determined to destroy people...
3:05:17 > 3:05:20She was! >
3:05:20 > 3:05:21APPLAUSE
3:05:21 > 3:05:25Whatever... Thatcher, I think she was a great woman,
3:05:25 > 3:05:27but whatever she was doing...
3:05:27 > 3:05:29BOOING FROM THE AUDIENCE
3:05:30 > 3:05:32She hated Liverpool. >
3:05:32 > 3:05:35Whatever she was doing, it was compassion itself,
3:05:35 > 3:05:37Christian compassion.
3:05:37 > 3:05:39She hated Liverpool. >
3:05:39 > 3:05:41She hated Liverpool. >
3:05:41 > 3:05:44I shouldn't have raised the subject.
3:05:44 > 3:05:47- Come on!- I'll move on, then. I give up on that.
3:05:47 > 3:05:48Move on, move on! >
3:05:48 > 3:05:52But the point is that the brutality of the European Union,
3:05:52 > 3:05:58the readiness of the Brussels bureaucrats to obliterate
3:05:58 > 3:06:00not just industries, but entire economies
3:06:00 > 3:06:02in the name of the dogma of the euro,
3:06:02 > 3:06:05that is something which really should frighten us.
3:06:05 > 3:06:07Talking about dogma here, next week,
3:06:07 > 3:06:11Jim Paice who is the Agricultural Minister, will go to Brussels
3:06:11 > 3:06:14and sit around a table with 26 other agricultural ministers
3:06:14 > 3:06:16and argue the toss about sheep tagging.
3:06:16 > 3:06:18Six or seven of those guys around the table,
3:06:18 > 3:06:2222 years ago had nuclear weapons on their soil pointing at this city.
3:06:22 > 3:06:25Next week, they're arguing the toss about sheep tagging.
3:06:25 > 3:06:26About what?
3:06:26 > 3:06:30About sheep tagging. LAUGHTER
3:06:30 > 3:06:34Electronic identification for sheep.
3:06:34 > 3:06:36Sheep tagging. Thank you.
3:06:36 > 3:06:39I think you have made your point.
3:06:39 > 3:06:42The point is if all we are doing now with the likes of Hungary
3:06:42 > 3:06:46is arguing the toss about how we identify the bovine community,
3:06:46 > 3:06:49that is a massive progress from where we were beforehand.
3:06:49 > 3:06:52- Thank you, Tim.- Very expensive.
3:06:52 > 3:06:55Let's go on. APPLAUSE
3:06:55 > 3:06:58I appreciate there is a lot of interest in that question.
3:06:58 > 3:07:00A lot of hands up.
3:07:00 > 3:07:03I think there might well be in the next one as well.
3:07:03 > 3:07:07Which is from Christopher Sinnett, please.
3:07:07 > 3:07:10Should families in employment be given preferential treatment
3:07:10 > 3:07:12on social housing lists over the unemployed?
3:07:12 > 3:07:16This was something Ed Miliband in his speech here in Liverpool,
3:07:16 > 3:07:18where the Labour party conference has been going on,
3:07:18 > 3:07:22said, "Do we treat the person who contributes to their community
3:07:22 > 3:07:25"the same as the person who doesn't? My answer is no."
3:07:25 > 3:07:28He was arguing for social housing to give priority to people
3:07:28 > 3:07:32who are in employment or gave something back to the community.
3:07:32 > 3:07:36Janet Street-Porter, what do you think of that proposal?
3:07:36 > 3:07:38Seems to be both a Labour and a Tory...
3:07:38 > 3:07:42Yes, I noticed today the Tories are claiming that one as well.
3:07:42 > 3:07:44I thought Ed Miliband's speech was bizarre,
3:07:44 > 3:07:48because he divides the whole of our society into good and bad people.
3:07:48 > 3:07:50I was thinking, right,
3:07:50 > 3:07:53so we now have these people in council houses,
3:07:53 > 3:07:54good people and bad people,
3:07:54 > 3:07:58and the bad people are the people on benefits without a job.
3:07:58 > 3:08:04And if you want to get social housing, you need to be in work.
3:08:04 > 3:08:06That's ludicrous because we've got at the moment,
3:08:06 > 3:08:11nearly a million young people out of work,
3:08:11 > 3:08:13so they'll never get on a housing list.
3:08:13 > 3:08:16Then I thought about it again and I thought,
3:08:16 > 3:08:20there is some merit in creating a points system,
3:08:20 > 3:08:25a more modern points system, given the pressure on social housing.
3:08:25 > 3:08:28I thought maybe if people did more for their community,
3:08:28 > 3:08:31after all, if you want your child to go to a certain school,
3:08:31 > 3:08:34you go to church, whatever, you move to an area,
3:08:34 > 3:08:37you try to build up points to get your kid
3:08:37 > 3:08:40into a church school, for example.
3:08:40 > 3:08:45I was thinking, there has been a lot of talk from David Cameron
3:08:45 > 3:08:49and from Labour about community spirit and the big society, whatever.
3:08:49 > 3:08:54I'm thinking, yes, maybe if the people who help run youth clubs,
3:08:54 > 3:08:57help in public libraries, now councils are making
3:08:57 > 3:09:01all these cuts and libraries have to be run by volunteers,
3:09:01 > 3:09:06if they do social work and do stuff in the community,
3:09:06 > 3:09:08that should count as points.
3:09:08 > 3:09:11What about when they stop it after they've got the house?
3:09:11 > 3:09:16I'm not going to be that judgmental, but I think it's a better structure.
3:09:16 > 3:09:19I think this idea of being in paid employment
3:09:19 > 3:09:23to get a council house is ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous.
3:09:23 > 3:09:25Person in the middle, at the back.
3:09:28 > 3:09:31If this is put in place, how are we going to make sure that
3:09:31 > 3:09:35people who are physically and mentally unable to contribute
3:09:35 > 3:09:39to their community aren't forgotten about and victims of the system?
3:09:39 > 3:09:40Caroline Flint.
3:09:40 > 3:09:43First of all, what we're not saying is
3:09:43 > 3:09:46that only those in work can get access to a council home,
3:09:46 > 3:09:48or that run by a housing association.
3:09:48 > 3:09:53What we're saying is, that within a community, councils should
3:09:53 > 3:09:56take into account a number of things,
3:09:56 > 3:09:59for example needs, just like you've expressed there.
3:09:59 > 3:10:01But also, we want to make sure that there's offer
3:10:01 > 3:10:04for those people on low incomes who are in work.
3:10:04 > 3:10:09Unfortunately, at present, in terms of allocating social housing,
3:10:09 > 3:10:13it's too often that people have to present themselves in quite
3:10:13 > 3:10:16a demeaning way, to show that they are so needy,
3:10:16 > 3:10:19so needing help that that's the way you get the points.
3:10:19 > 3:10:21I think that's pretty demeaning.
3:10:21 > 3:10:24But also it's about how we widen the offer to the community.
3:10:24 > 3:10:28For example, if there are some families living in a neighbourhood
3:10:28 > 3:10:32and parents or grandparents and they're in a social home,
3:10:32 > 3:10:36and they're looking to their kids who are in work getting one,
3:10:36 > 3:10:39and a housing estate goes up run by a housing association,
3:10:39 > 3:10:43and they know their kids will never get a chance to live there,
3:10:43 > 3:10:47that creates, I think, tensions and concerns about fairness.
3:10:47 > 3:10:51What we are saying is, we need more homes, that's absolutely the case.
3:10:51 > 3:10:54But we want to make sure social housing isn't seen
3:10:54 > 3:10:57as a second-choice offer, but a positive choice.
3:10:57 > 3:10:59To be honest, it used to be
3:10:59 > 3:11:02that actually most people who lived in council houses,
3:11:02 > 3:11:06you had teachers, you had plumbers, you had all sorts of people.
3:11:06 > 3:11:08We still have that to a certain extent today,
3:11:08 > 3:11:11but unfortunately the allocation procedure
3:11:11 > 3:11:14has meant a lot of those people never get a look in.
3:11:14 > 3:11:19You mean it favours people who can present a case for neediness?
3:11:19 > 3:11:22The problem is when a council is trying to decide
3:11:22 > 3:11:25and create diverse neighbourhoods, we've got to a stage,
3:11:25 > 3:11:29partly because not enough supply, where other people on low incomes
3:11:29 > 3:11:31in work never get a look-in.
3:11:31 > 3:11:35As Janet said, what Manchester council have been looking at
3:11:35 > 3:11:39is those people who make a real contribution to their community,
3:11:39 > 3:11:43saying, actually, they will be part of helping make the community strong.
3:11:43 > 3:11:46It's saying... It's not about just giving to one group,
3:11:46 > 3:11:49but it's taking into account to create a healthy, strong
3:11:49 > 3:11:51and actually a good working neighbourhood
3:11:51 > 3:11:52is good for a community.
3:11:52 > 3:11:53But we need the jobs
3:11:53 > 3:11:56and we're not getting them under this government.
3:11:56 > 3:11:57APPLAUSE
3:11:59 > 3:12:01People who are homeless, living in hostels or whatever,
3:12:01 > 3:12:04they find it difficult to find work.
3:12:04 > 3:12:08Wouldn't this preferential treatment of those who are employed
3:12:08 > 3:12:10condemn people to homelessness and unemployment?
3:12:10 > 3:12:15No, no, it wouldn't because it is not about saying either or.
3:12:15 > 3:12:18There are still allocations to house people who are homeless,
3:12:18 > 3:12:20but actually there's social housing,
3:12:20 > 3:12:23but also the private rented sector is also used.
3:12:23 > 3:12:26One of the things I said today at conference
3:12:26 > 3:12:28is we need to make the private rental sector better.
3:12:28 > 3:12:31Those who are unemployed, homeless, living in hostels,
3:12:31 > 3:12:36they are effectively condemned to not having housing
3:12:36 > 3:12:37because they can't get a job.
3:12:37 > 3:12:40But that policy would make it more difficult for someone
3:12:40 > 3:12:44to get a job, condemning them to homelessness, condemning them to...
3:12:44 > 3:12:48There will be obligations on councils to tackle homelessness and need.
3:12:48 > 3:12:51A single parent mother out of work, they will still be counted in.
3:12:51 > 3:12:54When you have supply, and we hope to increase supply if re-elected.
3:12:54 > 3:12:58We created social homes when we were in, not enough, but we did.
3:12:58 > 3:13:01That's something we hope will create a better balance
3:13:01 > 3:13:03and a real opportunity for social housing to grow.
3:13:03 > 3:13:06It is supposed by... The leader of the council in Liverpool said
3:13:06 > 3:13:10he would resign from the Labour Party if this goes through.
3:13:10 > 3:13:12You haven't got the party on your side.
3:13:12 > 3:13:16I don't think that is the case because I have been out in Liverpool
3:13:16 > 3:13:18in the last few days and I see where they're trying
3:13:18 > 3:13:22to create diverse neighbourhoods through the schemes
3:13:22 > 3:13:25they've operating in Kensington and elsewhere in Liverpool.
3:13:27 > 3:13:30My worry is that this is authoritarian and populist
3:13:30 > 3:13:33and is about creating a culture of the deserving poor.
3:13:33 > 3:13:34It worries me greatly.
3:13:34 > 3:13:39APPLAUSE How do you assess people's need?
3:13:40 > 3:13:43You have to come up with some system in order to judge people's need
3:13:43 > 3:13:46and how high up the list they ought to be.
3:13:46 > 3:13:50In my part of the world, we have 3,500 council houses left
3:13:50 > 3:13:55in South Lakeland, my district area, a waiting list of 3,500 as well.
3:13:55 > 3:13:57- We did have 10,000... - 3,500 available?
3:13:57 > 3:14:01We have 3,500 houses available and 3,500 on a waiting list.
3:14:01 > 3:14:04- You haven't got a problem, have you?- No.
3:14:04 > 3:14:07They are all occupied and there are an extra 3,500 waiting to get in.
3:14:07 > 3:14:10So 7,000 if you like. The bottom line is a lack
3:14:10 > 3:14:13of affordable and social housing in this country.
3:14:13 > 3:14:17We did have 10 or 12,000 council houses but somebody has sold them off
3:14:17 > 3:14:20and not replace them, the most ludicrous decision ever taken,
3:14:20 > 3:14:23which hit Liverpool and every other town in this country.
3:14:23 > 3:14:26APPLAUSE
3:14:26 > 3:14:28So you were against the right to buy?
3:14:28 > 3:14:30I take the view...
3:14:30 > 3:14:32Were you against the right to buy?
3:14:32 > 3:14:36I am against... I'm in favour of allowing councils to suspend
3:14:36 > 3:14:40the right to buy where there is most pressure on their housing stock.
3:14:40 > 3:14:43I agree with Caroline. Social housing is not a second best option.
3:14:43 > 3:14:46It's a legitimate and honourable option.
3:14:46 > 3:14:50We should not demonise people and put them on irregular lists.
3:14:50 > 3:14:53The woman on the right.
3:14:53 > 3:14:55We are talking about social housing
3:14:55 > 3:14:57and how it goes to the most needy in a priority order,
3:14:57 > 3:15:01but what about young professionals who cannot access social housing?
3:15:01 > 3:15:04We can't rent because the rent is too high,
3:15:04 > 3:15:06and we cannot get on the property ladder.
3:15:06 > 3:15:09- Are you talking about yourself? - Yes.
3:15:09 > 3:15:11Have you applied for social housing?
3:15:11 > 3:15:14There is no use, is there?
3:15:14 > 3:15:18I live at home with my parents and our house is not seen as overcrowded
3:15:18 > 3:15:21so I wouldn't get a look-in on the social housing list.
3:15:23 > 3:15:26I don't know enough about it
3:15:26 > 3:15:30to talk with any authority at all, to be honest.
3:15:30 > 3:15:33You do not need to talk if you don't have any authority.
3:15:34 > 3:15:39I think there's one observation I would like to do, to make.
3:15:39 > 3:15:42I thought that Ed Miliband's intervention on this issue
3:15:42 > 3:15:43was very interesting.
3:15:43 > 3:15:47I think that the idea that people can get something for nothing
3:15:47 > 3:15:49is difficult.
3:15:49 > 3:15:55To encourage people to go out and work and get off a dependency
3:15:55 > 3:15:59culture which can go on sometimes for generations is a bold thing.
3:15:59 > 3:16:03I think now that it has been suggested by the Tories,
3:16:03 > 3:16:06now being adopted by Labour, that is very good.
3:16:06 > 3:16:09I went to university, got educated
3:16:09 > 3:16:11and I'm not getting anywhere for it now, you know...
3:16:11 > 3:16:13Grant Shapps, pick up the cudgels.
3:16:13 > 3:16:15I think for somebody in your position,
3:16:15 > 3:16:18we've introduced a scheme called First Buy for first-time buyers.
3:16:18 > 3:16:21I've looked into that too. What's the point?
3:16:21 > 3:16:23You still have to save a deposit to get that
3:16:23 > 3:16:25and you have to pay that back in five years' time.
3:16:25 > 3:16:29- To me, that does not make sense. - How much have you got to save?
3:16:29 > 3:16:32You have to save £5,000 and you have to pay that back.
3:16:32 > 3:16:36So you still get a deposit for £80,000
3:16:36 > 3:16:39and the houses you are looking at for £100,000, are tiny.
3:16:39 > 3:16:42I'd sooner live in a council house and buy one of those.
3:16:42 > 3:16:45Trying to get your 10% deposit that you need,
3:16:45 > 3:16:49it's not realistic on my wages, as well.
3:16:49 > 3:16:51This is the point...
3:16:51 > 3:16:53No, hold on. He's...
3:16:53 > 3:16:57The problem is, the biggest commodity we need to live our lives
3:16:57 > 3:16:59is a roof over our head.
3:16:59 > 3:17:01I may be the first housing minister to ever say this
3:17:01 > 3:17:04but I think it is ridiculous that it takes so much
3:17:04 > 3:17:07of people's monthly income to have the most basic
3:17:07 > 3:17:10of human requirements, to have a roof over your head.
3:17:10 > 3:17:15The only way to fix that is through long-term stability in house prices.
3:17:15 > 3:17:18You're right, schemes like First Buy which enable you
3:17:18 > 3:17:21to get a smaller 5% or 10% deposit are designed to help.
3:17:21 > 3:17:25But your wider point is, why shouldn't someone like you who works
3:17:25 > 3:17:28have access to the social housing waiting list?
3:17:28 > 3:17:30I'd love to access social housing
3:17:30 > 3:17:33and have the housing association looking after you but...
3:17:33 > 3:17:38So why not expand the Government's spending on social housing?
3:17:38 > 3:17:43First of all, we're in this problem of trying to reduce the deficit.
3:17:43 > 3:17:45We are going to get a lot more social houses built
3:17:45 > 3:17:48as a result of something called affordable rent.
3:17:48 > 3:17:51We are going to build 170,000 affordable homes
3:17:51 > 3:17:56which exceeds initial expectation... By 2015, the end of the parliament.
3:17:56 > 3:18:00But can I get to the original question as well, which was that...
3:18:00 > 3:18:01The priority that's given.
3:18:01 > 3:18:05Ed Miliband announced in his speech that he thinks if you work,
3:18:05 > 3:18:07you should have some priority.
3:18:07 > 3:18:10People misunderstand the way the allocation lists work
3:18:10 > 3:18:13but, basically, you get points for various situations.
3:18:13 > 3:18:15I absolutely agree
3:18:15 > 3:18:18because this is our policy, it's in the Localism Bill,
3:18:18 > 3:18:20and the housing tenure changes that I am making.
3:18:20 > 3:18:23I look forward to the support from the opposition.
3:18:23 > 3:18:26It should be the case that if you are in work, that should,
3:18:26 > 3:18:29somewhere along the line, be taken into account and you should get
3:18:29 > 3:18:33more points for doing the right thing and you should benefit from that
3:18:33 > 3:18:37rather than being part of a society where you get something for nothing.
3:18:37 > 3:18:40You also floated that if someone got a pay rise they could
3:18:40 > 3:18:43be evicted from their council house. That is not helping.
3:18:43 > 3:18:47You can misquote me as much as you like but what I actually said...
3:18:47 > 3:18:49APPLAUSE
3:18:49 > 3:18:52What I actually said is if you find yourself some time later
3:18:52 > 3:18:55in a completely different position,
3:18:55 > 3:18:58people like the MP Frank Dobson, who earns over £100,000,
3:18:58 > 3:19:02then that house was built for somebody in need of housing.
3:19:02 > 3:19:05The waiting lists doubled under the time you were in Government
3:19:05 > 3:19:06and it is about time...
3:19:06 > 3:19:10People can pay to stay and then they can pay their rent.
3:19:10 > 3:19:14We think it will raise £56 million by asking people
3:19:14 > 3:19:16on high incomes to pay.
3:19:16 > 3:19:20With that money, we can build more social housing.
3:19:20 > 3:19:22Let's get this problem fixed!
3:19:22 > 3:19:26APPLAUSE
3:19:26 > 3:19:29No matter what each one of the parties wants, this problem is
3:19:29 > 3:19:33going to get so much worse when student fees go up to £9,000.
3:19:33 > 3:19:37It's people like me that are going to get slaughtered
3:19:37 > 3:19:41when we come out of uni with debt we could pay until we are 53 years old.
3:19:41 > 3:19:46A house is just off the agenda, isn't it? What are we going to do?
3:19:46 > 3:19:49APPLAUSE
3:19:49 > 3:19:53You sir on the fourth row.
3:19:53 > 3:19:56I think you can dance around the houses forever and a day
3:19:56 > 3:19:58as to how they are allocated
3:19:58 > 3:20:00but the fact is that there are just not enough out there.
3:20:00 > 3:20:04Caroline, you are right, there is brilliant stuff going on
3:20:04 > 3:20:08in how communities are mixed and how we integrate communities.
3:20:08 > 3:20:09Forget that argument.
3:20:09 > 3:20:12I would like to pick up Grant and say congratulations,
3:20:12 > 3:20:15because for the first time I feel with my own organisation
3:20:15 > 3:20:18we have managed to exceed what we thought possible.
3:20:18 > 3:20:20Your organisation being?
3:20:20 > 3:20:23Chester and District Housing Trust and Cosmopolitan Housing Group.
3:20:23 > 3:20:28On the back of Grant's proposal of putting 1,058 homes on the ground
3:20:28 > 3:20:29in the next three years,
3:20:29 > 3:20:31if there's a second round, we could double that.
3:20:31 > 3:20:35There's another part as well, and this is a plea to you, Grant.
3:20:35 > 3:20:38You have come up with something fantastic and I congratulate you,
3:20:38 > 3:20:42but we need to consider the impact of welfare reform.
3:20:42 > 3:20:45If you are on the bottom of the rung, it's a bloody tough time.
3:20:45 > 3:20:49It really is. I look at some of the residents and I do not know how
3:20:49 > 3:20:50they get from week to week.
3:20:50 > 3:20:52So the capping of rents?
3:20:52 > 3:20:56If you look at housing benefit if it's paid to residents directly,
3:20:56 > 3:21:00and most of them don't want it, that will undermine
3:21:00 > 3:21:03what is actually a fantastic scheme you have come up with.
3:21:03 > 3:21:05OK. I think we should move on.
3:21:05 > 3:21:12Let's stick with politics and go to Simon Nolan, please.
3:21:13 > 3:21:17Is Ed Miliband's attack on business practices a clear indication that
3:21:17 > 3:21:21the Labour Party is moving further to the left under his leadership?
3:21:21 > 3:21:25Is the Labour Party moving further to the left,
3:21:25 > 3:21:28and what Ed Miliband said was talk about producers
3:21:28 > 3:21:32against predators, saying that when Labour came back to power
3:21:32 > 3:21:36they would be taxed differently and he would distinguish
3:21:36 > 3:21:40between producers and predators, wealth creators and asset strippers.
3:21:40 > 3:21:43Is this a move to the left? Janet Street-Porter.
3:21:43 > 3:21:47There was a very interesting article in one of the papers today
3:21:47 > 3:21:50by James Dyson, picking up on this.
3:21:50 > 3:21:55He pointed out he had to move the manufacturing part
3:21:55 > 3:21:59of his business abroad because he couldn't get planning permission
3:21:59 > 3:22:01to expand his factory in the UK.
3:22:01 > 3:22:05He got roundly attacked for that because obviously lots of jobs
3:22:05 > 3:22:10went overseas but his businesses has flourished
3:22:10 > 3:22:12and the research and development division
3:22:12 > 3:22:16and the part of his engineering which develops new products
3:22:16 > 3:22:21has expanded, so lots of jobs have come about in the long-term.
3:22:21 > 3:22:24I think that this story is an interesting one.
3:22:24 > 3:22:27It shows to be successful in business
3:22:27 > 3:22:30you've got to be a combination of both.
3:22:30 > 3:22:33Both asset stripper and... Wealth creator and predator...
3:22:33 > 3:22:37No, very successful businessmen are not good or bad.
3:22:37 > 3:22:40They are complex people who at some time during the building
3:22:40 > 3:22:45up of their business have to act in a ruthless way.
3:22:45 > 3:22:50Business is not as simplistic as Ed Miliband would have.
3:22:50 > 3:22:53I think it's absolutely bonkers.
3:22:53 > 3:22:58When I watched his speech, it's like loads of placards. Isn't it?
3:22:58 > 3:23:00Then you go beyond the placard, and you think,
3:23:00 > 3:23:02"But what does he really mean?"
3:23:02 > 3:23:07I think it wasn't a good speech.
3:23:07 > 3:23:09It's not so much moving to the left,
3:23:09 > 3:23:12it's lunching about looking for the daylight, isn't it?
3:23:12 > 3:23:15APPLAUSE
3:23:19 > 3:23:22I don't know what you think about Ed Miliband,
3:23:22 > 3:23:25now it's rumoured he's going to drop you from his Shadow Cabinet.
3:23:25 > 3:23:26First I've heard of it.
3:23:26 > 3:23:29Maybe this is a chance for you to show your loyalty?
3:23:29 > 3:23:30What do you think?
3:23:30 > 3:23:33I think that what Ed Miliband was drawing attention to
3:23:33 > 3:23:36is the way some businesses behave.
3:23:36 > 3:23:39Clearly we've seen, in terms of the bankers, some worrying things
3:23:39 > 3:23:43about how that sector operated over a number of years,
3:23:43 > 3:23:45but he also talked about, for example this week,
3:23:45 > 3:23:48the way with the energy producers,
3:23:48 > 3:23:50that we have a bad business model there,
3:23:50 > 3:23:55whereby actually it's putting up prices for the average consumer.
3:23:55 > 3:23:58What he talked about was looking at how you can open up
3:23:58 > 3:24:00and have more competition in that area,
3:24:00 > 3:24:03in order to make sure consumers are supported.
3:24:03 > 3:24:04He's also talking about...
3:24:04 > 3:24:07What was his job before becoming the leader
3:24:07 > 3:24:11- of the Labour Party opposition? - He was involved in that, yes.
3:24:11 > 3:24:13- LAUGHTER - Was he Energy Secretary?
3:24:13 > 3:24:17And Ed was doing work on looking at the energy markets
3:24:17 > 3:24:21before we lost the General Election. That is only fair to point out.
3:24:21 > 3:24:25What he's saying too, are there ways in way governments
3:24:25 > 3:24:28set certain rules that we can also think about encouraging
3:24:28 > 3:24:32and supporting businesses that are doing the right thing?
3:24:32 > 3:24:35For example, we have huge numbers of government contracts
3:24:35 > 3:24:38at national level. There are contracts at a local council level.
3:24:38 > 3:24:42Why not say to businesses, "If you win a contract,
3:24:42 > 3:24:45"how many apprentices are you taking on?"
3:24:45 > 3:24:48Is that a way of encouraging a skill base and opportunity for people?
3:24:48 > 3:24:51That isn't what he said. He said they had to be taxed differently.
3:24:51 > 3:24:54He was going to distinguish between different types of businesses.
3:24:54 > 3:24:59And by tax, what he was talking about is if there are companies
3:24:59 > 3:25:02investing in research and design and development,
3:25:02 > 3:25:06they could get tax credits to support that activity.
3:25:06 > 3:25:10That's about encouraging innovation and jobs.
3:25:10 > 3:25:13So there are things about some practises that it's only fair
3:25:13 > 3:25:16the government sets rules on, but it's not about being punitive.
3:25:16 > 3:25:21It is about rewarding and encouraging good business practice and behaviour.
3:25:21 > 3:25:25Then why didn't Labour ever insist that all these companies
3:25:25 > 3:25:29had 50% women on the board? You had ten years to do that.
3:25:29 > 3:25:31If you talk about good and bad businesses,
3:25:31 > 3:25:33women have been ignored by the Labour Party.
3:25:33 > 3:25:35But, Janet... APPLAUSE
3:25:35 > 3:25:38OK, the man over there, you sir.
3:25:38 > 3:25:42Caroline, talking about government contracts,
3:25:42 > 3:25:48would you regard good business from the Government being things
3:25:48 > 3:25:52like the NHS failed computer system and the nine fire emergency centres
3:25:52 > 3:25:55that are costing an arm and a leg and aren't being used.
3:25:57 > 3:26:00I would accept that those schemes failed and
3:26:00 > 3:26:02we have to look at those and take responsibility.
3:26:02 > 3:26:05It is a good point about government procurement and how it works.
3:26:05 > 3:26:08Don't be hypocritical.
3:26:08 > 3:26:12Jim Murphy has said the same about issues in the Ministry of Defence.
3:26:12 > 3:26:16In answer to Janet's point, this is about Ed setting out where he thinks
3:26:16 > 3:26:18the Labour Party should go in the future.
3:26:18 > 3:26:21You dropped Harriet Harman's proposal to force companies
3:26:21 > 3:26:24to have a mandatory number of women on the board. That was shocking.
3:26:24 > 3:26:27- Ed wasn't the leader, I don't think. - You sir, in the fourth row.
3:26:27 > 3:26:31This speech did not represent a lurch to the left,
3:26:31 > 3:26:36but it challenged some orthodoxies, that have been around for the last 30 years.
3:26:36 > 3:26:40We have companies taking advantage of Britain's competitiveness,
3:26:40 > 3:26:45tax evading, asset-stripping and moving things offshore.
3:26:45 > 3:26:48They are taking advantage, but giving nothing back.
3:26:48 > 3:26:51Currently, we reward that, like everybody else,
3:26:51 > 3:26:54we shouldn't do, we should treat them differently.
3:26:54 > 3:26:58Tim Farron, did you agree with what Ed Miliband said?
3:26:58 > 3:27:02Were you sympathetic to what he was saying?
3:27:02 > 3:27:05If I understood it, that would be a start.
3:27:05 > 3:27:08- If you understood what he said? - "Good and bad businesses."
3:27:08 > 3:27:12I spent last night in Kendal talking to small businesses that
3:27:12 > 3:27:15employ no more than a dozen people,
3:27:15 > 3:27:19they are, by and large, paying themselves less than the minimum wage
3:27:19 > 3:27:23and keeping these folks in work and working their socks off.
3:27:23 > 3:27:26They are good businesses, they are in an awful position
3:27:26 > 3:27:29because of bad government decisions in the late 1990s to
3:27:29 > 3:27:33deregulate the banks and leave us in the mess we are in now.
3:27:33 > 3:27:35Is Miliband taking them to the left?
3:27:35 > 3:27:39Well, they spent 13 years in power behaving like Tories,
3:27:39 > 3:27:41and now 16 months in opposition behaving like Trots.
3:27:41 > 3:27:43That is ridiculous.
3:27:43 > 3:27:44APPLAUSE
3:27:44 > 3:27:48Absolutely ridiculous.
3:27:48 > 3:27:50I am on the right, the Daily Telegraph.
3:27:50 > 3:27:55I thought Ed Miliband's speech was one of the most impressive speeches
3:27:55 > 3:27:59of a political leader at a party conference for a very long time.
3:27:59 > 3:28:03The reason was he was challenging orthodoxy.
3:28:03 > 3:28:07We are living in a troubling period.
3:28:07 > 3:28:11When all of the beliefs we were brought up to believe
3:28:11 > 3:28:15about how society and economy work are being broken.
3:28:15 > 3:28:18I think that Ed Miliband is rising to that occasion.
3:28:18 > 3:28:21I think that is a very interesting thing.
3:28:21 > 3:28:25I would have gone stronger than he did about some aspects of
3:28:25 > 3:28:30modern capitalism as it emerged first under Thatcher and then under Blair.
3:28:30 > 3:28:33It was encouraged by Blair as much as Thatcher - the feral rich.
3:28:33 > 3:28:38There was a reference earlier on to that trader,
3:28:38 > 3:28:42that disgusting trader interviewed on BBC, who said he laid awake at
3:28:42 > 3:28:47night waiting for the recession and that Goldman Sachs ruled the world.
3:28:47 > 3:28:49That is revolting.
3:28:49 > 3:28:52That is a disgusting human being.
3:28:52 > 3:28:54Something has gone wrong with society.
3:28:54 > 3:28:57I think that one of the things that Ed Miliband was doing,
3:28:57 > 3:29:01and it is a huge challenge to George Osborne and David Cameron next week,
3:29:01 > 3:29:07is that he was trying to bring back morality into the way that this country works.
3:29:07 > 3:29:11APPLAUSE
3:29:11 > 3:29:13Is that how you read it?
3:29:13 > 3:29:19I thought it was bizarre, this idea of good versus bad companies.
3:29:19 > 3:29:23I set up a small company, a printing company 20 years ago,
3:29:23 > 3:29:26I'm not sure if I were good or bad.
3:29:26 > 3:29:30What about if I were a builder and I invested in the town centre in my constituency,
3:29:30 > 3:29:36would I be a good builder as I'm building a town centre that needed regeneration?
3:29:36 > 3:29:39Or a bad builder because I was investing and taking a gamble?
3:29:39 > 3:29:41Would I be good or bad?
3:29:41 > 3:29:44That is Alistair Darling's example after hearing that speech.
3:29:44 > 3:29:47I have a question for the audience - would Weetabix be good or bad?
3:29:47 > 3:29:49The AA? The RAC? McVities?
3:29:49 > 3:29:54These are all companies in the bad books of Ed Miliband.
3:29:54 > 3:29:58APPLAUSE
3:29:58 > 3:30:02Why is Weetabix the bad company?
3:30:02 > 3:30:05He didn't mention it in his speech.
3:30:05 > 3:30:09No, but they are all invested in by private equity firms
3:30:09 > 3:30:13- so in his view, they are the bad guys.- Hang on a second.
3:30:13 > 3:30:17At the very back there.
3:30:17 > 3:30:22I definitely think that Ed Miliband wouldn't have said
3:30:22 > 3:30:25those things one year to an election.
3:30:25 > 3:30:30I would like to reiterate that it is very welcoming having moral issues
3:30:30 > 3:30:34come back into economic ideas and to the Conservative minister there,
3:30:34 > 3:30:40those questions are the right things to say to iron out
3:30:40 > 3:30:44those ambivalences that exist and are troubling our society at the minute.
3:30:44 > 3:30:47You are not concerned the practicalities weren't spelt out?
3:30:47 > 3:30:50You say it's too soon for that?
3:30:50 > 3:30:53I think in airing those issues we are having the discussions
3:30:53 > 3:30:56and ironing out those things that we need to do.
3:30:56 > 3:30:59Man in the second row in the checked shirt.
3:30:59 > 3:31:02Peter touched on the issue, the real issue is greed from
3:31:02 > 3:31:06the multinational companies who are tax evading.
3:31:06 > 3:31:09They are not paying their dues.
3:31:09 > 3:31:12We should say they need a measure of corporate responsibility,
3:31:12 > 3:31:14to do business in this country
3:31:14 > 3:31:18and by extension the European Union, then you have to pay your dues.
3:31:18 > 3:31:22APPLAUSE
3:31:22 > 3:31:27I'd be interested to see how Labour can, with authority, judge
3:31:27 > 3:31:31what is a good and a bad business, considering John Denham's
3:31:31 > 3:31:36admission, that not a single member of the Cabinet had run a business?
3:31:36 > 3:31:39What Ed Miliband was talking about was not picking
3:31:39 > 3:31:42on one sector or another, but talking about bad behaviour.
3:31:42 > 3:31:48Just to answer Grant, he's not having an onslaught against every private equity firm,
3:31:48 > 3:31:50but let's be honest about this,
3:31:50 > 3:31:54it was a private equity funding firm that put Southern Cross on
3:31:54 > 3:31:58an unsustainable footing and tried to sell it for a fast buck
3:31:58 > 3:32:01leaving old people not knowing where they would live.
3:32:03 > 3:32:05Why do you use this example?
3:32:05 > 3:32:09I am using the example that within different sectors, that there
3:32:09 > 3:32:16is bad behaviour that needs to be at least acknowledged...
3:32:16 > 3:32:20What about the person brought in to sort out Northern Rock
3:32:20 > 3:32:25was employed by the Government and allowed to have their tax arrangements paid overseas.
3:32:25 > 3:32:28So Government colludes with it.
3:32:28 > 3:32:33APPLAUSE
3:32:33 > 3:32:35I think most people know and are concerned
3:32:35 > 3:32:38when they hear of certain companies
3:32:38 > 3:32:40and in certain sectors behaving in a way,
3:32:40 > 3:32:43whether it is not enforcing the national minimum wage
3:32:43 > 3:32:46or whether it is issues around safety of their staff
3:32:46 > 3:32:49or when there are actions that don't help the business,
3:32:49 > 3:32:54help the employees, what he is talking about is let's have a debate.
3:32:54 > 3:32:59We have talked about the bankers on many, many occasions.
3:32:59 > 3:33:03Everyone said there is something wrong with the bonus culture in banking,
3:33:03 > 3:33:07and the way it created a situation where people were taking risks.
3:33:07 > 3:33:11That is an example where we have all had a debate in recent times.
3:33:11 > 3:33:14Labour has learned from that, we have all learnt from that,
3:33:14 > 3:33:18that banking and regulation must be put on another footing.
3:33:18 > 3:33:20That is what Ed Miliband is talking about.
3:33:20 > 3:33:22This from the leader, Ed Miliband,
3:33:22 > 3:33:26who was the special advisor to Gordon Brown, when they allowed Fred the shred,
3:33:26 > 3:33:29who they gave a knighthood to and then gave him £17 million
3:33:29 > 3:33:31as a pay off, extraordinary!
3:33:31 > 3:33:36APPLAUSE
3:33:36 > 3:33:38I think that the Conservatives
3:33:38 > 3:33:41wanted to get rid of most of the banking regulations.
3:33:41 > 3:33:45So I accept that we made bad mistakes in a number of areas,
3:33:45 > 3:33:49but you cannot sit there and say you are totally clean.
3:33:49 > 3:33:52The job of the government in this area is to support businesses
3:33:52 > 3:33:55and allow people to make a living and create jobs for other people,
3:33:55 > 3:34:00but the last Labour government entered power in 1997 and committed the appalling sin
3:34:00 > 3:34:04of "out-Thatchering" Mrs Thatcher, deregulating the banks...
3:34:04 > 3:34:07Rubbish! We brought in the national minimum wage.
3:34:07 > 3:34:10This whole line of appalling collapses,
3:34:10 > 3:34:14this is why we are in the mess now it is not because they overspent,
3:34:14 > 3:34:18but because they did something even Margaret Thatcher wouldn't do in '97.
3:34:18 > 3:34:20Just before we finish the programme,
3:34:20 > 3:34:24you said you wanted a divorce from the Tories in three or four years,
3:34:24 > 3:34:27the three years is well before an election,
3:34:27 > 3:34:28is that what you want to do?
3:34:28 > 3:34:30Thank you for allowing me to clarify.
3:34:30 > 3:34:32You have to be brief.
3:34:32 > 3:34:37Three years and eight months, the coalition needs to last till 2015.
3:34:37 > 3:34:41The bottom line is Britain needs stable government.
3:34:41 > 3:34:44- How is the marriage going? - It's going all right.
3:34:44 > 3:34:48- Why get divorced then?- It would be a perfectly amicable divorce.
3:34:51 > 3:34:56The point is it is a temporary arrangement.
3:34:56 > 3:34:58Yeah, but you are enjoying the power.
3:34:58 > 3:35:01It is not a marriage, it's a temporary arrangement?
3:35:01 > 3:35:03It is a business arrangement.
3:35:03 > 3:35:06We'd better end there because our time is up.
3:35:06 > 3:35:08We are in Salford next week.
3:35:08 > 3:35:11Manchester is hosting the Tory Party conference.
3:35:11 > 3:35:13The panel next week on Question Time,
3:35:13 > 3:35:16the musician Billy Bragg, Jane Moore from The Sun,
3:35:16 > 3:35:22Sayeeda Warsi for the Government, Andy Burnham for Labour
3:35:22 > 3:35:28and Charles Kennedy for the Liberal Democrats.
3:35:28 > 3:35:32The week after that we are in London.
3:35:32 > 3:35:35If you want to join the audience for either,
3:35:35 > 3:35:38that is Salford next week or London the week after,
3:35:38 > 3:35:41our number is on the screen there, the website as well.
3:35:50 > 3:35:52Thanks to you on the panel in this very steaming hot Liverpool studio
3:35:52 > 3:35:53and to all of you who put up with them.
3:35:53 > 3:35:56It was very nice having you here.
3:35:56 > 3:35:59Until next Thursday when we are going to be in Salford, good night.
3:36:14 > 3:36:16Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd
3:36:16 > 3:36:18E-mail subtitiling@bbc.co.uk