:00:11. > :00:21.Tonight we are in Glasgow at the University of Strathclyde. Welcome
:00:21. > :00:23.
:00:23. > :00:26.to question final. -- to Question Time. With me tonight, the
:00:26. > :00:29.Government's Deputy Chief Whip, Alistair Carmichael. Margaret
:00:30. > :00:37.Curran, the Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland. The film star
:00:37. > :00:41.and actor, Brian Cox. The Conservative MP, Jacob Rees-Mogg.
:00:41. > :00:51.The Scottish Education Secretary, Michael Russell. The Daily
:00:51. > :00:53.
:00:53. > :00:57.Telegraph columnist, Cristina Odone. APPLAUSE
:00:57. > :01:01.Just before we start, I should say we have six panellists and an
:01:01. > :01:05.audience with a lot of questions, so I ask everybody to be succint if
:01:05. > :01:09.they can be toe fight. For fear of terrible punishment! The first
:01:09. > :01:18.question from Emma Fleming. Were we right in interfering in the
:01:18. > :01:21.political affairs of Libya? Michael Russell? The UN resolution and it's
:01:21. > :01:25.appropriate for countries who support the United Nations and to
:01:25. > :01:30.see them enacted. The important thing is what happens next. Today,
:01:30. > :01:33.the man who lived by the sword died by the sword. What we have to do
:01:33. > :01:39.now is make sure the country has a fair opportunity to make sure the
:01:39. > :01:43.people get what they want. I hope it will get a great deal of support
:01:43. > :01:48.and not meddling. Cristina Odone? Yes. It was absolutely essential
:01:48. > :01:51.for us to intervene and I always remember, it was the first time
:01:51. > :01:55.that the social networks brought news to us that we otherwise
:01:55. > :01:59.wouldn't have had, of people saying, please, please, come and save us
:01:59. > :02:03.from this man. We can't do it on our own. Yes, the resolution was
:02:03. > :02:09.important, because we didn't want to do an Iraqi-style intervention,
:02:09. > :02:12.but I'm very proud of this Government for having gone in there,
:02:12. > :02:21.because a bad man has come to a bad end.
:02:21. > :02:25.APPLAUSE Brian Cox? Yes, unlike Iraq, it was
:02:25. > :02:29.the right thing to do and it was done in the right way. In what was
:02:29. > :02:35.was it the right way? Because it was done through the proper
:02:35. > :02:40.channels, which clearly Iraq wasn't. I think they learnt the lesson of
:02:40. > :02:46.Iraq, because actually it has come to great fruition. Do you think
:02:46. > :02:50.that there are dangers ahead, Jacob Rees-Mogg and in that sense were we
:02:50. > :02:54.wise to go in, in the first place? I thought I would answer the first
:02:54. > :02:58.question first. I think the gentleman is right. We were right
:02:58. > :03:02.it was striking leadership of David Cameron to do it and it was done
:03:03. > :03:06.legally, which is crucial. I don't want us to become the world
:03:06. > :03:11.policeman, so the fact we have been right once and it has worked and
:03:11. > :03:18.Gaddafi has gone is all good news, but we don't want to do this on a
:03:18. > :03:24.regular basis. Margaret Curran? Well, can I say in response to
:03:24. > :03:28.Emma's question who is a young lady, I believe, that I agree with other
:03:28. > :03:33.panel members. It seems to me that this is a momentous day in Libyan
:03:34. > :03:38.history and perhaps Middle Eastern world history. We should remember
:03:38. > :03:42.the victims of the Gaddafi regime and of course I think take one
:03:42. > :03:44.moment to pay tribute to the servicemen and women who were part
:03:45. > :03:48.of this, who undoubtedly there would have been slaughter in
:03:48. > :03:55.Benghazi had they not acted. I do think that there are lessons here
:03:55. > :03:59.for us to learn and we now need to think about the future of Libya.
:03:59. > :04:01.There's a debate to be had about being the world's police officer,
:04:01. > :04:05.but we have to recognise particularly with the Arab Spring
:04:05. > :04:10.there is a place for international solidarity and to help people
:04:10. > :04:14.develop a strong Libya that is democratic. Is there a place for us
:04:14. > :04:19.to do something in Syria? We would need to have a world discussion
:04:19. > :04:25.about that. The thing that happened in Libya was the fact we had the UN
:04:25. > :04:29.resolution, 1973, and we had the Arab League supporting it also and
:04:29. > :04:34.that is very important. Syria is desperate too. We have to
:04:34. > :04:37.understand that. I think, as Jacob says, we don't want to get in the
:04:37. > :04:42.situation where we are the world's police officer, but we have to
:04:42. > :04:49.remember that there are peoples in Syria and gemen as well and should
:04:49. > :04:53.we now turn there -- Yemen as well and should we now turn there to
:04:53. > :04:56.intervene? I think the question about being the world's police
:04:56. > :05:00.officer is a distraction from the main issue. Yes, we were obviously
:05:01. > :05:05.right to go in there. To intervene in the way that we did, because
:05:05. > :05:08.remember what the consequences would have been had we failed to do
:05:08. > :05:14.so. Gaddafi had said that anybody who opposed him would be hunted
:05:14. > :05:16.down like rats. We know that he would have done it, because he had
:05:17. > :05:21.done it to his own people for decades. The important thing,
:05:21. > :05:25.though, is the way in which we did it. It was done with all the proper
:05:25. > :05:30.authority of the UN resolution and I think that the long-term solution,
:05:30. > :05:36.the point at which we have seen the turning now, is that from here on
:05:36. > :05:43.in we have been seen as being a country which will respect the rule
:05:43. > :05:46.of law and not flaunt it, as was done when we invaded Iraq. If we
:05:46. > :05:55.had managed to get a UN resolution on Iraq clearly it would have been
:05:55. > :06:00.the right thing to do? If we had got the resolution, would you -- I
:06:00. > :06:05.be in favour? You are hedging your bets. No, you said the difference
:06:05. > :06:10.$here that we had backing from the UN and NATO. We were never going to
:06:10. > :06:13.get it because the basis on which the UN mandate on Iraq was being
:06:13. > :06:18.sought was an unfounded one. There is another judgment about whether
:06:18. > :06:24.it is something you can achieve or get international backing also?
:06:24. > :06:27.Which is why the authority is only the first step. I think we have to
:06:27. > :06:31.remember, as the UN Secretary- General said earlier, that this is
:06:31. > :06:34.not the end. It's a new beginning for many of the Libyan people. We
:06:34. > :06:38.have had the suggestion that democratic elections will take
:06:38. > :06:42.place in two years and if we have taken the step to intervene we need
:06:42. > :06:47.to see that to the conclusion and ensure that stability and democracy
:06:47. > :06:54.are implemented. You think we should be staying there? In the
:06:54. > :06:58.short-term, yes. Apart from going into Iraq, we had no plan and no
:06:58. > :07:02.ability to support. Making it up as we went along. What needs to happen
:07:02. > :07:06.in the circumstances is the positive help for the provisional
:07:06. > :07:10.government so there can be elections, but not meddling.
:07:10. > :07:13.Support, not meddling. You don't think we should have people on the
:07:13. > :07:21.ground. I don't think we should have the type of people on the
:07:21. > :07:28.ground that we had in Iraq, because it didn't work out. To be honest,
:07:28. > :07:33.I'm specifically talking about enemies, why don't we use people
:07:33. > :07:36.like Bahrain and Saudi Arabia. If we start using our soft power in
:07:36. > :07:43.those countries people would rise more and solve their problems. We
:07:43. > :07:46.won't need to go for the military solution. I think we have to be
:07:46. > :07:50.very careful in our dealings with Saudi Arabia and Bahrain. They are
:07:50. > :07:55.very important allies to us, that the oil that comes from Saudi
:07:55. > :08:04.Arabia is essential to the British economy. Why don't we use the soft
:08:04. > :08:09.powers for the allies, rather than interfering in other countries, and
:08:09. > :08:15.you can't predict it, but there could be some kind of soft power
:08:15. > :08:19.and some stand. In Bahrain protesters were being killed.
:08:19. > :08:25.soft power, you can persuade your allies? Absolutely. We should
:08:25. > :08:28.persuade the allies. I think you have to be very cautious about how
:08:28. > :08:32.you interfere in the affairs of other sovereign states, because you
:08:32. > :08:36.can make it worse. You can say we think it would be a good idea and
:08:36. > :08:41.that can lead to opposition to it purely because it is you who are
:08:41. > :08:50.saying it. We ran an empire in the past. We can't get back into that
:08:50. > :08:55.business. I think it was the right thing to intervene in inia, but we
:08:55. > :08:58.have to remember that a lot of people around -- in Libya, but we
:08:58. > :09:04.have to remember that a lot of people around the establishment
:09:05. > :09:10.were pro-Gaddafi for the years when we had reliable oil supplies,
:09:10. > :09:14.despite the fact he was supporting international terrorism. Do you
:09:14. > :09:22.criticise them for that? They don't really support the Libyan people
:09:22. > :09:32.until it suits them and then they are all for freedom. Before there
:09:32. > :09:34.
:09:34. > :09:39.was oil on the table - Thank you. think you are right. I think Libya
:09:39. > :09:49.- or rather Gaddafi's demise has emposed the great hip pock siz that
:09:49. > :09:53.western leaders have been very capable of -- but we have the great
:09:53. > :09:56.confidence in the soft power that Britain enjoys. What came loud and
:09:56. > :10:02.clear from the Arab Spring protesters was that in no way did
:10:03. > :10:06.they think that the West had the perfect setup and in no way did
:10:06. > :10:13.they think they would copy us. Yes, they wanted democracy, but not
:10:13. > :10:15.necessarily the kind that we have put in place. Afghan began bay and
:10:15. > :10:20.after the kind of hypocritical stuff that we have done both in
:10:20. > :10:25.Iraq and Libya, I can see why. have one or two questions that were
:10:25. > :10:31.asked whether Britain had blood on its hands. Does anyone - I don't
:10:31. > :10:37.know who asked that question. Did you ask that question? Did you ask
:10:37. > :10:42.it? I wonder what Tony Blair thinks about Gaddafi being killed today?
:10:42. > :10:47.What were you going to say and we'll go on. We are talking about a
:10:47. > :10:52.democracy in Libya and it's a shame we have missed the fact that
:10:52. > :10:56.Gaddafi is dead now. A beacon of democracy in Libya could have been
:10:56. > :10:59.him being tried and the results of that. It would have been a great
:10:59. > :11:04.start. APPLAUSE
:11:04. > :11:14.Thank you. We'll go on. Just a word if you are into tweeting. You can
:11:14. > :11:16.
:11:16. > :11:20.get in touch: One other thing, if you are a school pupil or a school
:11:20. > :11:24.teacher, we are running our usual annual Question Time-style debate
:11:24. > :11:34.for schools and if you want to get involved, the address is on the
:11:34. > :11:35.
:11:35. > :11:39.screen now. Another question from Anne Connelly. When is the UK going
:11:40. > :11:42.to stand up to the energy companies and stop the profiteering? This is
:11:42. > :11:46.in the light of the vague Government attempts to do things
:11:46. > :11:52.about the price of oil and people are just starting to feel this as
:11:52. > :11:58.the cold weather hits us. Alistair Carmichael, �125 per customer
:11:58. > :12:01.profit, not �15 as it before? Indeed. I think the answer applies
:12:01. > :12:05.not just within the hands of Government and I think there is a
:12:05. > :12:10.lot more that the Government can be doing, but within ourselves as well,
:12:10. > :12:14.because we as the consumers are given the opportunity - This is the
:12:14. > :12:21.old Chris Huhne line that we heard all last week. Shop around, shop
:12:21. > :12:29.around. Shop around. The fact is that by using your individual power
:12:29. > :12:33.you have a real opportunity. It's not the whole answer and we
:12:33. > :12:41.understand completely that the way in which the energy market is
:12:41. > :12:48.regulated as got to change. It is changing. However, it is going to
:12:48. > :12:52.be difficult. The Government understands that. The idea of us as
:12:52. > :12:56.consumers it is like walking into a shop and you see all these things
:12:56. > :13:01.on sale and you look for the price tag and either it's not there or
:13:01. > :13:06.there are three different price tags on the same item and you think,
:13:06. > :13:12.hold on a second. What kind of a shop am I in?
:13:12. > :13:19.APPLAUSE These are the very changes that
:13:19. > :13:22.Chris Huhne was talking about. he wasn't. He told us to check.
:13:22. > :13:27.Little things like the fact that at the end of the year energy
:13:27. > :13:33.companies are going to have to tell you how you can change. Michael
:13:33. > :13:37.Russell? The people in the worst fuel poverty are those who are
:13:37. > :13:42.furthest from the innet, so those people are the people who are least
:13:42. > :13:51.able to choose from this absolutely extraordinary situation. Three
:13:51. > :13:54.price tags would be fun. There are more than 30. Sorry, I clearly
:13:54. > :13:59.didn't exaggerate enough. 400. What we need to have is companies that
:13:59. > :14:03.offer their consumers the cheapest deal. That's not rocket science.
:14:03. > :14:07.They should be made to do that and any Government that fails to make
:14:07. > :14:09.them is condemning people not just to fuel poverty, but actually to
:14:09. > :14:19.people to die of cold in this country.
:14:19. > :14:20.
:14:20. > :14:25.APPLAUSE Maybe they should one the �1
:14:25. > :14:27.billion they were going to spend on the Fife carbon capture in
:14:27. > :14:33.providing cheaper energy to households. I thought they were
:14:33. > :14:38.trying to save money. Let's not get into that. That's another one.
:14:38. > :14:41.Margaret Curran? I think energy prices are one of the most
:14:41. > :14:46.important issues today. I think the Government are completely out of
:14:46. > :14:56.touch on this. What can they do? They are implementing a system that
:14:56. > :14:59.
:14:59. > :15:03.We know that prices go up like a rocket and down like a feather.
:15:03. > :15:06.What Labour are calling for is that they should share these excess
:15:06. > :15:09.profits that have gone up particularly quickly over the past
:15:09. > :15:14.few months. They should be told they have to put that back to help
:15:14. > :15:17.people pay their bills. That is one thing the Government can do. This
:15:17. > :15:23.problem has been around for a long time and Ed Miliband was energy
:15:23. > :15:27.secretary. What did he do? One of the things that he did was to
:15:27. > :15:32.insist Ofgem intervene and regulate more effectively. We have seen that
:15:32. > :15:36.the rates have gone up particularly over the past six months, I think a
:15:36. > :15:41.20%. Ed Miliband, in his position as leader of the Labour Party, has
:15:41. > :15:45.said we need to introduce market reform and is calling for
:15:46. > :15:50.significant market reform. What can you do? One proposal is to look at
:15:50. > :15:53.the pool of prices and how you access to electricity. The figures
:15:53. > :15:57.show you can bring down the bills in that way and that is something
:15:57. > :16:01.they should be looked at immediately and we should do that.
:16:01. > :16:10.But we cannot instruct Ofgem, because it is independent of
:16:10. > :16:12.Government, and that is how your party set it up. You can pass a
:16:12. > :16:16.simple all. We could draft it this evening. It would say, companies
:16:16. > :16:23.have to publish prices simply m customers have to get the lowest
:16:23. > :16:27.price. I think that would have a good effect. We could do it. I like
:16:27. > :16:34.the idea of punishing customers if they don't get the lowest price,
:16:34. > :16:36.implicit in what you said. The man in the white shirt. The answer to
:16:36. > :16:40.this is that we should not hold our breath for the Government to stand
:16:40. > :16:43.up to the companies, because I am sure the summit this week was
:16:43. > :16:48.choreographed so David Cameron could rule with an iron fist and
:16:48. > :16:52.give us a good deal. What happened? The energy companies stood their
:16:52. > :16:56.ground and we had Chris Huhne saying we have to shop around.
:16:56. > :17:00.kept something from the morning paper which says that 2700 people
:17:00. > :17:05.die in freezing homes in a year. That is more than die on the roads.
:17:05. > :17:08.That is terrible. And there are problems with the system as it
:17:08. > :17:12.currently works which need to be addressed so actually you have more
:17:12. > :17:19.competition, not more regulation, because competition brings prices
:17:19. > :17:22.down. We also have to look at green initiatives. We are currently
:17:22. > :17:27.talking �80 a year on bills from green initiatives, predicted to
:17:27. > :17:31.double over the next five years. Can you explain what you mean by
:17:31. > :17:35.green initiatives? Some of the things the Government is doing,
:17:35. > :17:40.subsidies for feed in tariffs... Which the oil and electricity
:17:40. > :17:43.companies have to do, hopes that they jump through. They have to pay
:17:43. > :17:47.for electricity that is fed in at a higher rate than they can resell it.
:17:47. > :17:51.Somebody has to pay for that and �80 extra on the bill for somebody
:17:51. > :17:55.who is poor could be the difference between eating their home or not.
:17:55. > :18:02.We have to be really serious about what we wish for in terms of the
:18:02. > :18:07.green agenda. -- heating their home. The man up there with the
:18:07. > :18:09.spectacles. With the green agenda, what is the Government going to do
:18:09. > :18:15.with the finds that they impose on big energy companies when they do
:18:15. > :18:18.not meet their carbon reduction targets? The under the green deal,
:18:18. > :18:23.if the large energy companies do not hit carbon reduction targets,
:18:23. > :18:28.they will be fined a percentage. Should they give it back to
:18:28. > :18:37.consumers who have been paying for it? It is obscene. It is just
:18:37. > :18:40.I think that some elderly person who does not know how to shop
:18:40. > :18:44.around, these people are being marginalised more and more and
:18:44. > :18:50.there are more of them. They are increasing. There are more elderly
:18:50. > :18:53.people around. The whole notion of this kind of profit is obscene and
:18:53. > :18:57.it is part of the whole horrible business of what has been going on,
:18:57. > :19:03.how people are being ripped off systematically, day after day after
:19:03. > :19:06.day, and it goes right back to banking, the whole system. Do you
:19:06. > :19:13.think the six main companies to deliver the energy are in cahoots
:19:13. > :19:17.with each other? Of course they are. There is no real competition. I
:19:17. > :19:22.don't think you should talk about a market in heating an old lady's
:19:22. > :19:26.home. I don't think you should say that is subject to the market. She
:19:26. > :19:34.does not understand that, she is just trying to keep warm, and I
:19:34. > :19:37.think it is obscene. The man on the right. The problem is that the
:19:37. > :19:41.energy companies are controlled by shareholders. Shareholders only
:19:41. > :19:46.care about profit. They do not answer to anyone other than
:19:46. > :19:49.shareholders. My concern is that the 20% increase
:19:49. > :19:54.in energy prices, how does that equate to civil servants who have
:19:54. > :20:00.been told to take a two you pay freeze? Where is the justice?
:20:00. > :20:04.you speaking as a civil servant? Yes. And the UK Government is
:20:04. > :20:08.attempting to enforce a rise in pension contributions. It is
:20:08. > :20:13.inequitable and it will lead to more fuel poverty and more deaths,
:20:13. > :20:17.inevitably. I think it is patronising for Chris Huhne and
:20:17. > :20:21.David Cameron to tell consumers to shop around, as if we do not have
:20:21. > :20:25.the intelligence to do that already. I think the issue is that when you
:20:25. > :20:32.do shop around it is so complex, in the amount of tariffs and the
:20:32. > :20:37.amount of deals, it is not an easy process. I think the deals that are
:20:37. > :20:47.on the market need to be simplified for consumers. You never meet
:20:47. > :20:49.
:20:49. > :20:52.anybody who says they understand Most of the people tell me that it
:20:52. > :20:55.is difficult for them to shop around on the computer. They are
:20:55. > :21:05.unable to use the computer and it is really difficult for them to
:21:05. > :21:07.
:21:07. > :21:10.find the right prices for the right tariff. The woman on the far side.
:21:11. > :21:14.I am wondering when are the Government going to stop blaming
:21:14. > :21:24.the previous Government and actually start acting and standing
:21:24. > :21:28.
:21:28. > :21:31.on their own feet. It usually takes 13 years! I have shopped around in
:21:31. > :21:34.the past four different energy suppliers and each time I have
:21:34. > :21:39.changed, it has been a complete nightmare and the savings have been
:21:39. > :21:43.minimal. The stress levels go up and the savings are just about hear,
:21:43. > :21:47.and then you have to do it again. The companies should give us
:21:47. > :21:52.savings if you are a loyal customer. It used to be that loyal customers
:21:52. > :21:58.got a discount but now you have to find the discount. What goes wrong
:21:58. > :22:04.when you change? It is a nightmare. Difficult instructions and
:22:04. > :22:08.difficult complicated ways of doing it. It becomes a nightmare.
:22:08. > :22:12.hidden charges. I wanted to change but I am paying by direct debit and
:22:12. > :22:16.I thought another company look more interesting. They were trying to
:22:16. > :22:19.lure me with a cheaper package. I found out that because I was direct
:22:19. > :22:25.debit with the other one, I would have to pay a charge to get rid of
:22:25. > :22:28.them. It is outrageous. When we are told by the Government that there
:22:28. > :22:32.is nothing to do, that the wholesale fuel prices are so high
:22:32. > :22:38.and they cannot help it, of course they cannot. But they certainly
:22:38. > :22:45.could sit down with the six creatures and say to them, you are
:22:45. > :22:50.not going to profit from other people's misery. Let's go on. This
:22:50. > :22:55.question is from Michael Rossi, please. Why do the three main
:22:55. > :23:03.National Party is not want a referendum on UK membership of the
:23:03. > :23:07.EU? There has been this 100,000 signatories, and there is a debate
:23:07. > :23:10.which was going to be next Thursday in the House of Commons and will
:23:10. > :23:15.now be on Monday so that the Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary can
:23:15. > :23:17.be there. It seems that all three major UK national parties are going
:23:17. > :23:23.to tell their members to vote against the referendum, despite
:23:23. > :23:28.what they have said at various times in their manifestos. Jacob
:23:28. > :23:32.Rees-Mogg, why is everybody against a referendum? I think, to use a
:23:32. > :23:36.word Margaret Thatcher once used, they have come to the conclusion
:23:36. > :23:40.that most people in the UK do not actually like Europe, they think
:23:40. > :23:44.the EU has failed, the euro is in desperate decline. This weekend we
:23:44. > :23:48.will see whether it survives. Instead of saying we need a new
:23:48. > :23:54.relationship with Europe speedily, we want to go back to free trade,
:23:54. > :23:58.which we agreed to, and not be governed un-democratically from
:23:58. > :24:01.Brussels, they hope the problem will disappear, but it will not. I
:24:01. > :24:05.think we will have a referendum but not on the motion that has been put
:24:05. > :24:09.forward but on new treaties that will be debated to work out where
:24:09. > :24:18.Europe goes to deal with the collapse of the euro. How will you
:24:18. > :24:24.vote on Monday? I have not finally decided. But... I have spoken to
:24:24. > :24:27.the whips. I will probably support the motion. I do not think it is a
:24:27. > :24:31.perfect motion, but I think it is an important symbol of how Euro-
:24:31. > :24:36.sceptic this country is, and that we have to be clear that we need a
:24:36. > :24:40.new relationship with Europe. And we have to work towards that with a
:24:40. > :24:44.renegotiation of the treaties and powers coming back to the United
:24:44. > :24:47.Kingdom, and possibly coming to the Edinburgh parliament as well,
:24:47. > :24:57.depending on where the British people want them to go. But there
:24:57. > :25:03.are powers. The Liberal Democrats said they were committed to a
:25:03. > :25:05.referendum, Alistair Carmichael. Why are you and your irate Chief
:25:05. > :25:10.Whip for the Liberal Democrats, why are you going to be telling your
:25:10. > :25:14.people that if they don't vote for this they cannot look for
:25:14. > :25:19.preferment in future? I will be saying no such thing to any of my
:25:19. > :25:22.colleagues. How will you put it? will not reveal the secrets of the
:25:22. > :25:30.whips office on national television, because it is much less exciting
:25:30. > :25:34.than everybody thinks. Really! answer the question, I do not think
:25:34. > :25:38.the three main parties are closed to a referendum. We are not
:25:38. > :25:43.necessarily going to be supporting the motion on Monday, which as
:25:43. > :25:47.Jacob has indicated, is somewhat defective in its terms. But I think
:25:47. > :25:52.at some stage we are going to have to have this referendum and this
:25:52. > :25:56.debate. The Government has already, actually, enacted the position that
:25:56. > :26:01.we had stood on in our manifesto, which is that the next time there
:26:01. > :26:06.will be a treaty change that sees a proposal for sovereignty to go from
:26:06. > :26:10.the United Kingdom to the EU, there will be put to the British people.
:26:10. > :26:14.I think that is absolutely necessary, speaking as somebody who
:26:14. > :26:22.actually believes in the European Union and who wants to see it
:26:22. > :26:25.succeed. What is wrong with this one? The deal that people were
:26:25. > :26:31.given in 1976 was a very, very different one from what they have
:26:31. > :26:36.now. I think if people like myself, who believe in the European Union,
:26:36. > :26:40.who want to see it prosper, are going to be able to engage properly,
:26:40. > :26:44.then we have to have a current mandate, not one for something
:26:44. > :26:47.different that is 30 years old. This says you should have a
:26:47. > :26:51.referendum in the next session of Parliament on whether the UK should
:26:51. > :26:55.remain a member, or whether it should leave the European Union, or
:26:55. > :26:59.whether it should renegotiate the terms of its membership to create a
:26:59. > :27:04.new relationship. What is wrong with that? Simply because the final
:27:04. > :27:07.part is they can leaves too much open. I think the real clincher is
:27:07. > :27:10.that it would be a massive distraction at this time, when
:27:10. > :27:15.every politician should be straining every sinew to
:27:15. > :27:22.reconstruct our economy, to go off on a major exercise in
:27:22. > :27:26.constitutional navel-gazing. cost of joining the European Union
:27:26. > :27:30.is around �40 million a day, so how do the panellists justify what are
:27:30. > :27:37.the benefits that we are deriving as being part of the European
:27:37. > :27:40.Union? Does it balance with the �40 million a day? I stood in the May
:27:40. > :27:44.election very clearly on a policy in favour of a referendum about
:27:44. > :27:48.distant government. It was actually about Scottish independence and
:27:48. > :27:53.distant government from London. are not having that one either, are
:27:53. > :27:57.you? We are going to. You do not know when you're going to have it.
:27:57. > :28:03.We do know exactly when we are going to have it, the second half
:28:03. > :28:06.of this Parliament, which is what we said when we were elected. The
:28:06. > :28:10.curious thing is that the party's muttering in the corner are the
:28:10. > :28:17.ones who are trying to force this referendum early on the Scottish
:28:17. > :28:21.people but are denying a referendum south of the border on other things.
:28:21. > :28:26.What does forcing a referendum mean? Surely, a referendum can be
:28:26. > :28:31.heard at any time. People know their own minds. The Scottish
:28:31. > :28:34.government was elected on a clear platform. I am sure you were here.
:28:34. > :28:37.Margaret and Alistair definitely worth. There was a clear commitment
:28:37. > :28:42.to hold a referendum on independence in the second half of
:28:42. > :28:46.the parliament. It is not in your manifesto. Now we are hearing from
:28:46. > :28:48.south of the border that Labour thinks it is a good idea to have
:28:48. > :28:51.the referendum at the time of the choosing of the Westminster
:28:51. > :28:55.government, the Westminster Parliament, not the Scottish
:28:55. > :28:58.Parliament. That would be an affront to democracy in Scotland.
:28:58. > :29:02.In terms of the European issue, it is essential to recognise the
:29:02. > :29:08.importance of Europe to a small country like Scotland. I am
:29:08. > :29:13.unequivocally in support of that. hope to address the issue of the
:29:13. > :29:18.Scottish referendum, too. To repeat the question, why do the three main
:29:18. > :29:21.parties not want a referendum on membership of the EU? What is
:29:21. > :29:26.interesting about this is the process that has got us here,
:29:26. > :29:28.because I do think that this model that we have, where people can e-
:29:28. > :29:33.mail in and say they think this is what Parliament should be debating
:29:33. > :29:36.has been very useful. We saw a moving and powerful debate about
:29:36. > :29:41.Hillsborough last week which was a reflection of what people wanted us
:29:41. > :29:44.to discuss. And obviously this is important and the EU referendum is
:29:44. > :29:50.part of that. We have rising unemployment and the Tories are
:29:50. > :29:55.fighting about Europe. I have deja- vu. The one. I agree with, the big
:29:55. > :29:58.issue is the economy and a lot of Tory MEPs want to talk about Europe
:29:58. > :30:03.all the time. There is a bit of that but I do not want to indulge
:30:03. > :30:06.because we have the issues to face. Why is Labour opposing the
:30:06. > :30:13.referendum call? You say was a wonderful bit of democracy, 100,000
:30:13. > :30:16.people asking for it and now you say you will vote against it.
:30:17. > :30:21.policy is unequivocal. We said in our manifesto we do not support a
:30:21. > :30:25.referendum. It seems, to answer the young gentleman's point, our
:30:25. > :30:27.economic future is tied up with Europe. I think the eurozone is a
:30:27. > :30:37.bigger issue we should be talking about and there is no point in
:30:37. > :30:38.
:30:38. > :30:42.denying that our policy is very It seems to me that there's a fear
:30:42. > :30:45.of the fact that people would say let's get out of Europe. I think
:30:46. > :30:50.that's what really motivates the fact that three parties are not
:30:50. > :30:55.wanting to have a referendum, because they are afraid of opening
:30:55. > :30:59.that particular Pandora's box and what will happen. That to me is so
:30:59. > :31:04.obvious. Europe is a massive problem. It was too quick, too soon,
:31:04. > :31:07.too much happened too soon. It moved far too fast a pace and we
:31:07. > :31:11.couldn't keep up and we now have the mess that we have got. All the
:31:11. > :31:17.parties are afraid to face up to the fact that people might say,
:31:17. > :31:22."Let's get out of Europe." APPLAUSE
:31:22. > :31:27.Should they take that risk, in your view, or are they right? I can
:31:27. > :31:31.understand why they don't, because I'm pro-European as well, but
:31:31. > :31:35.Europe does necessitated looking at. It's a big mess. Do you think a
:31:35. > :31:43.referendum that had the option of pulling out of Europe, whatever
:31:43. > :31:48.that may mean, entirely, would be successful? I'm not sure. I really
:31:48. > :31:53.am not sure. This is all surely about democracy in action. The
:31:53. > :31:57.people have asked for this debate. Surely a political leader should
:31:57. > :32:02.give our representatives the option to vote freely on this matter and
:32:02. > :32:05.respect the wishes of the democracy in asking for this debate.
:32:05. > :32:13.Absolutely. You have taken the words right out of my mouth. I
:32:13. > :32:16.can't bear the thought of the whips telling the politicians, "You must
:32:16. > :32:21.follow up." Telling them not to listen to constituents. I think
:32:21. > :32:26.it's not what I call real politics. It's certainly not part of
:32:26. > :32:30.Parliamentary politics. Like most of the panellists, I do think that
:32:30. > :32:32.Europe - that Britain should stay in Europe, but I think
:32:32. > :32:36.renegotiation of the terms of engagement is probably called for
:32:36. > :32:44.at this point, especially as we are watching the euro sink every day
:32:44. > :32:50.more. I think we should have one, but stay in the EU. Mr Rees-Mogg,
:32:50. > :32:57.you speak about the euro collapsing, as if it will have no vehicle on
:32:57. > :33:00.Britain. British banks have one trillion euros in loans that would
:33:00. > :33:07.be worthless. Alistair Carmichael, we have established that all three
:33:07. > :33:11.political parties are ignoring the 100,000 people and telling - They
:33:11. > :33:16.are right to get the debate. Is it not also true that however you vote
:33:16. > :33:20.on one of these issues that has been raised by the public, it's not
:33:20. > :33:24.binding on Parliament? That is the rules of Parliament. It is not
:33:24. > :33:32.binding. You are still fussed about it even though it's not binding.
:33:32. > :33:37.would be a brave Government that ignored the world Parliament.
:33:37. > :33:41.went in 1976 and it was the Common Market, which I don't think anyone
:33:41. > :33:46.has got problems with, but since then governments have creeded more
:33:46. > :33:51.and more -- ceded more and more legislation away. Power has gone to
:33:51. > :33:55.Europe and that's the problem that most people don't like. We have no
:33:55. > :33:58.control in this country over our own affairs, basically none.
:33:58. > :34:08.Everything is to be done the European way. Nobody voted for that
:34:08. > :34:11.
:34:11. > :34:14.or got asked for that. That is what we want back. Mike Russell stresses
:34:14. > :34:18.the fact that Scotland needs to make sure we don't forget about
:34:18. > :34:21.Europe and how important it is. What he's forgetting is if we
:34:21. > :34:31.achieve independence Europe will forget about Scotland. We'll get
:34:31. > :34:33.
:34:33. > :34:36.chucked out of the I could give you chapter and verse -- EU. I could
:34:36. > :34:40.give you chapter and verse saying that that is simply not true.
:34:40. > :34:44.Scotland will continue to be a member, or actually neither part of
:34:44. > :34:53.the old United Kingdom would continue to be a member. That's
:34:53. > :34:57.what would apply. Would we be in the euro? We are similar to you and
:34:57. > :35:02.the argument was at some stage it would be worth considering, but
:35:02. > :35:06.using the sterling north and south of the border. A Scottish pound?
:35:06. > :35:10.We have said we would like to keep sterling for the foreseeable future
:35:10. > :35:20.and that's a reasonable currency. The Australians, when they were
:35:20. > :35:20.
:35:20. > :35:24.independent in 1906 kept the pound for another ten years. One more
:35:24. > :35:30.point from the audience. Scotland was to gain independence
:35:30. > :35:35.would there be fi real point exiting one union and joining
:35:35. > :35:45.another? -- there any real point exiting one union and joining
:35:45. > :35:52.another? You talk about powers from Brussels. The vast amount of powers
:35:52. > :35:56.in Brussels are nothing compared to Westminster. You would also have -
:35:56. > :36:04.We have moved off the question. It was about the EU in the UK. It's
:36:04. > :36:08.not often I actually agree with Brian Cox, - Does he know that?
:36:08. > :36:13.I'm telling you now, yes, the Parliamentarians are scared of the
:36:13. > :36:16.answer they might get from the referendum, but surely if the
:36:16. > :36:23.answer is no it is strengthening the power that they'll have to go
:36:23. > :36:28.to Europe and renegotiate terms? you think i Jacob, that the Prime
:36:28. > :36:32.Minister and William Hague have handled this deftly, moving it from
:36:32. > :36:36.Thursday to Monday and looking like a panic measure? I think the Prime
:36:36. > :36:42.Minister and Foreign Secretary are the greatest geniuss we have ever
:36:42. > :36:45.had in Government in the history of mankind. They have handled it well,
:36:45. > :36:50.but this may not be quite deft enough for me to support them on
:36:50. > :36:55.Monday evening. The whips are watching you. I think they know
:36:55. > :37:01.where he stands. Another question. This one is from Holly McCormack.
:37:01. > :37:06.Liam Fox has condemned the media frenzy following rezlations about
:37:06. > :37:14.his relationship with -- relationship with Adam Werritty. Is
:37:14. > :37:17.this another politician looking to blame others for his mistakes?
:37:17. > :37:20.attacked the press and rather curiously said the Ministerial Code
:37:20. > :37:25.has been found to be breached. That's an odd way of putting it.
:37:25. > :37:32.Cristina Odone, what do you think of this affair and this attack on
:37:32. > :37:39.the press? I think that the press was there when we needed it and I'm
:37:39. > :37:44.very, very pleased that the man who was in charge of defence secrets
:37:44. > :37:51.was caught bringing somebody who hadn't been cleared through
:37:51. > :37:57.security, to American generals, where they were discussing the most
:37:57. > :38:02.important security business. He brought him to conferences with
:38:02. > :38:09.Arab leaders, who were also going to be discussing very, very
:38:09. > :38:15.important security measures. And, continuously for many, many years -
:38:15. > :38:20.well, not many years, but more than one year, we have had this man, Mr
:38:20. > :38:26.Werritty, coming in to places where he had no business being. I think
:38:26. > :38:32.that for the press to have flushed this out, for the press to have
:38:32. > :38:39.protected our security, is a great thing. It is almost made me forgive
:38:39. > :38:46.my industry, my profession, for the whole Murdoch mess, so, yes, I'm
:38:46. > :38:50.pleased. Almost, but not quite. What he said was that it was
:38:50. > :38:55.unacceptable that family and friends who are nothing to do with
:38:55. > :39:00.central issues should be hounded and intimidated. Nobody was hounded
:39:00. > :39:04.and intimidated. Questions were asked that should have been asked
:39:04. > :39:09.by governments and politicians and all the generals. They all should
:39:09. > :39:16.have said, "Who is this guy?" finally, the press did ask. I think
:39:16. > :39:19.we did the write thing. Jacob Rees- Mogg? I'm with the Duke of
:39:19. > :39:22.Wellington, publish and dedamned. We want a press that the
:39:22. > :39:27.governments don't like. The Government likes the press then the
:39:27. > :39:31.press isn't doing its job. Having said all that, I'm very sorry Liam
:39:31. > :39:38.Fox has gone. I think he's a decent and honest pan, but it's not the
:39:38. > :39:43.fault of the press - Honest? Well, - I'm sorry. What was honest about
:39:43. > :39:47.that? He's not taken any money corruptly. He was clearly unwise to
:39:47. > :39:52.travel with Mr Werritty. I'm not beginning to pretend he wasn't. I'm
:39:52. > :40:02.saying - Mr Werritty could have been a terrorist. Mr Werritty could
:40:02. > :40:02.
:40:02. > :40:06.have been anything. Let's ask the audience, if you've got a friend
:40:06. > :40:16.you've known for 20 years who was your best man, do you think he's a
:40:16. > :40:25.terrorist? Really? You don't. You have to allow politicians to have
:40:25. > :40:30.long-standing friendships to people who aren't involved in poll -- in
:40:30. > :40:34.politics and Cristina Odone is wrong. I'm a nurse and I'm sure he
:40:34. > :40:38.would be thrilled to see me in a professional capacity and I brought
:40:38. > :40:43.a close chum along. He knew from day one it was wrong
:40:43. > :40:46.APPLAUSE Absolutely. I think what has
:40:47. > :40:50.happened here is straggering, but there are many questions that still
:40:50. > :40:53.remain. The fact that so many things seemed to have happened
:40:53. > :40:56.outside government, that the Civil Service were unhappy about it, but
:40:56. > :41:00.it wasn't properly resolved. We need to ask questions about that.
:41:00. > :41:04.More than MIG else, what I want to know is are any other practises
:41:04. > :41:06.going on in a similar nature in this Government, because the Prime
:41:07. > :41:12.Minister seems to have been the last to know this and that is very
:41:12. > :41:17.serious. The issue of security is not as easily dismded as he would
:41:17. > :41:21.like it to be. -- dismissed as he would like it to be. We need to
:41:21. > :41:30.know how many others were involved. What were the practises involved
:41:30. > :41:33.and I don't think we have got to the bottom of this at all yet.
:41:33. > :41:37.the report actually said was that as he went regularly overseas with
:41:37. > :41:41.military top brass and other advisers, having Werritty him and
:41:41. > :41:45.particularly seeing all the movements in the diary, posed a
:41:45. > :41:50.security risk not only to Dr Fox, but also to the accompanying
:41:50. > :41:55.official party. That was the security risk. Not that Werritty
:41:55. > :42:00.was the terrorist, but anyone else could have become involved.
:42:00. > :42:05.security risk was known by someone who was not in a secure area, but I
:42:05. > :42:11.do think that public figures are entitled to a private life and that
:42:11. > :42:16.security is there to protect the principle not to control his moves.
:42:16. > :42:21.The Cabinet Secretary is wrong. think he's unreasonable, to say
:42:21. > :42:24.that people should always in high office have their movements
:42:24. > :42:28.determined by what the police say is wise. I think we have to make
:42:28. > :42:31.the decisions for themselves and we see that the Queen sometimes
:42:31. > :42:36.ignores security advice when she thinks it's the right thing to do.
:42:36. > :42:40.I think that's absolutely proper, otherwise you get politicians
:42:40. > :42:44.completly encapsulated in an area where -- completely encapsulated in
:42:44. > :42:50.an area where they cannot get about. A politician shouldn't be
:42:50. > :42:55.complaining about the press in this situation. The press can behave in
:42:55. > :43:03.an appalling fashion. They are not angels, but the fault lies with
:43:04. > :43:08.Liam Fox and nobody else. What do you mean by that in this context?
:43:08. > :43:12.think I would call in the definition that just as it would
:43:12. > :43:18.not always apply to matters of morality and money, but it would
:43:18. > :43:22.apply to pretending yourself as something that you were not --
:43:22. > :43:31.presenting yourself as something that you were not. He was running a
:43:31. > :43:37.parallel foreign policy. It's an odd Government you are not a member
:43:37. > :43:42.of. Brian Cox. I think it was David Cameron who said that the
:43:42. > :43:46.Government was going to behave with probity. It seems to me that he
:43:46. > :43:51.said this was very important that we didn't have the issues that we
:43:51. > :43:57.had before. Liam Fox has not behaved with probity. He's behaved
:43:57. > :44:02.stupidly. Absolutely stupidly. Then to be in the state of denial about
:44:02. > :44:12.it and clearly this is - clearly, he's a gifted man, but the folly is
:44:12. > :44:14.
:44:14. > :44:19.ridiculous. It is theatrical, actually. I don't see why he can't
:44:19. > :44:25.see that. The fact that then to come back and say, "Well, you know,
:44:25. > :44:34.friends and others are involved. They are involved ." That's the
:44:34. > :44:44.level he's gone to. I think Mr Werritty has also behaved like a
:44:44. > :44:50.
:44:50. > :44:59.Alistair Carmichael. Liam Fox was guilty of an error of judgment and
:44:59. > :45:02.he admitted that. As a consequence, he has resigned. I think he did the
:45:02. > :45:07.absolutely right and only thing he could do. Should he have criticised
:45:07. > :45:11.the media when making his resignation statement? I do not
:45:11. > :45:16.know. That is a question of judgment. In his circumstances, I
:45:16. > :45:19.would not have done it that way. He was the one making the statement.
:45:19. > :45:23.He was complaining about friends and family being harassed by the
:45:23. > :45:27.press. I do not know what he meant, but I have known it happen to
:45:27. > :45:31.others in the past. You do hear stories of people being doorstep to
:45:31. > :45:35.about stuff they do not know anything about. I actually think
:45:35. > :45:41.that instead of talking about our relationship with the press, the
:45:41. > :45:48.real issue that comes out of this is the way in which politicians in
:45:48. > :45:52.Westminster in particular interact with lobbyists. This has just
:45:52. > :45:56.lifted the lid. David Cameron himself, in the last Parliament,
:45:56. > :46:00.identified this as being the next political scandal coming down the
:46:00. > :46:04.line. And I think, I hope that we as a government are now going to be
:46:04. > :46:08.to move on with more speed and urgency on the work we have already
:46:08. > :46:14.started. You think lobbying was involved? You think there was
:46:14. > :46:17.unfair access to ministers, is that what you're saying? If we had a
:46:17. > :46:20.proper registration system where those who were lobbying were doing
:46:20. > :46:30.it openly and transparently and you knew what was going on and where
:46:30. > :46:36.the money was coming from... Just to clarify, are you saying that
:46:36. > :46:40.Werritty introduced lobbyists for to the Secretary of State? I do not
:46:40. > :46:50.honestly know the detail of that, but I do not know the detail
:46:50. > :46:51.
:46:51. > :46:57.because the practice of lobbying is so opaque. Advocacy of any cause is
:46:57. > :47:03.a criminal offence for members. Our code as criminal... You cannot talk
:47:03. > :47:09.to him Minister and say, we want this to happen. Advocacy from any
:47:09. > :47:14.organisation to an MSP is a criminal offence. Isn't bad going a
:47:14. > :47:20.bit far? What do you mean paid advocacy? Nobody can come to talk
:47:20. > :47:23.to you about education? Paid advocacy is quite clear. I would
:47:23. > :47:27.define it as when a company is giving money to any individual, as
:47:27. > :47:32.they were in Werritty's case, and that individual is going round the
:47:32. > :47:38.world with a minister. I think that comes pretty close to paid advocacy,
:47:39. > :47:42.in my view. That is not right and should be illegal. I would say to
:47:42. > :47:46.the member of the Government here today, it is simply not good enough.
:47:47. > :47:51.We have had a report, which I tried to read, which gave no clear
:47:51. > :47:55.answers. We saw his glorious resignation, where he fell on his
:47:55. > :48:00.sword. There were no real answers. You have said yourself that you do
:48:00. > :48:03.not know. This man was in charge of the Ministry of Defence, nothing
:48:03. > :48:09.more important perhaps than that. There is too much smokescreen and
:48:09. > :48:12.we need real answers. There are other investigations going on. So I
:48:12. > :48:19.think there is still more to be looked at and doubtless more
:48:19. > :48:22.answers will come. Let's go on to another question. Caroline Miller.
:48:22. > :48:29.Would members of the panel be prepared to downsize their home to
:48:29. > :48:33.make way for young families? I do not know how elderly the members of
:48:34. > :48:35.the panel are, and whether they qualified. This is a report from
:48:36. > :48:39.the Intergenerational Foundation, which I don't think anybody had
:48:39. > :48:45.heard of until this report came out, but it was given a huge publicity
:48:45. > :48:49.today, saying that about one-third of all homes are under occupied.
:48:49. > :48:52.People over 65 now live in homes with two more bedrooms than they
:48:52. > :48:57.need, and old people are urged to leave their homes and move into
:48:57. > :49:03.smaller homes. Who would like to start on that? I have to be careful
:49:04. > :49:09.who I go to first. Margaret Curran, what do you think of it? I was
:49:09. > :49:13.quite shocked by this proposal and I daresay... Were you surprised by
:49:13. > :49:20.the information, or not? That there were so many people living in half-
:49:20. > :49:25.empty houses? No, I am not surprised by that. But I am shocked
:49:25. > :49:28.that it has been said in such a blunt way. I do not know if that is
:49:28. > :49:32.the solution to the problems we face. In Scotland we have a number
:49:32. > :49:37.of housing issues, with the way the budget has been cut. In England
:49:37. > :49:40.there are housing pressures. I do not see this as a solution to that,
:49:40. > :49:44.and it is not fair to say to elderly people that somehow they
:49:44. > :49:47.are at fault and to blame. I would rather get this Government get
:49:47. > :49:57.their finger out, get the economy going and that is the way we saw
:49:57. > :50:05.these kind of problems. What really upset me about this report, this
:50:05. > :50:11.proposal, was that it was, yet again, away for this society to
:50:11. > :50:15.sideline, marginalise and make feel about this big, the elderly. When
:50:15. > :50:19.this is coupled with what happens to the elderly in care, when it is
:50:19. > :50:25.coupled with what happens to the elderly and hospitals, it makes me
:50:25. > :50:32.so ashamed. One thing that we could learn from Asian and African family
:50:32. > :50:38.is his to cherish, cherish the older generation, because they are
:50:38. > :50:41.wise, they have seen it all, because they are going to give you
:50:41. > :50:47.their big house when they are ready, not when you are pushing them to
:50:47. > :50:49.get out. There is another side of this. Earlier in the week you had
:50:49. > :50:55.this Westminster Government telling people on housing benefit that they
:50:55. > :50:59.would have to move house if they had a spare room. This is the most
:50:59. > :51:02.extraordinary thing. I think this proposal is pretty daft. But when
:51:02. > :51:05.people would be forced, as is the proposal, to move house because
:51:05. > :51:12.they will not be paid housing benefit because they have a spare
:51:12. > :51:17.room, I think we're getting to the obscene stage. That man, are you of
:51:17. > :51:20.an age to want to kick an older person out? I work in a profession
:51:20. > :51:25.around housing as a trainee solicitor. There is a severe lack
:51:25. > :51:32.of affordable housing in this country. How many unoccupied houses
:51:32. > :51:34.are there in Scotland? I am told 25,000. I do not know the figure,
:51:35. > :51:41.but I know there are people wanting to get on the housing market but
:51:41. > :51:45.they cannot because there is not affordable housing. That could help
:51:45. > :51:48.the construction industry and help the economy as well. We need more
:51:48. > :51:54.affordable housing. What do you think about putting pressure on
:51:54. > :51:56.older people to move out? I think it is two things. It is endemic
:51:56. > :52:01.that it would reduce the opportunity for family being
:52:01. > :52:07.together, so instead of encouraging inter-generational relationships,
:52:07. > :52:11.it would reduce that. And who is going to buy these so-called large
:52:11. > :52:17.houses for the elderly? Young people can hardly buy smaller
:52:17. > :52:22.houses. So who is expecting... It is just not practical. The problem
:52:22. > :52:26.would be that it would reduce the opportunity for a build up of
:52:26. > :52:35.family relationships and family coming together and gatherings,
:52:35. > :52:45.rather than... So you need rooms for the grandchildren. I do and I'm
:52:45. > :52:46.
:52:46. > :52:50.sure lots of people do. I was just going to say, old people
:52:50. > :52:54.have big houses but very few friends. Young people have got lots
:52:54. > :53:00.of friends but no houses. Maybe we could arrange some sort of trade-
:53:00. > :53:04.off. I would like to agree with Mr
:53:04. > :53:08.Dimbleby. Perhaps the company has done this because it will get
:53:08. > :53:11.attention for a previously unknown company, because it is a ridiculous
:53:11. > :53:19.report which cannot be legislated for and we are all speaking about
:53:19. > :53:22.it. Jacob Rees-Mogg. It is the silliest idea anyone has ever come
:53:22. > :53:27.up with. Surely people should be free to live in their house if they
:53:27. > :53:33.own it. I am tempted to say an Englishman's home is his castle, an
:53:33. > :53:37.IOC may Scotsman's home is his castle, as well, and indeed ladies,
:53:37. > :53:40.too. You should be able to live in your house as long as you like. The
:53:40. > :53:48.pressure from the state to be told to move house because you have too
:53:48. > :53:52.many rooms, it is bonkers. I know many elderly people who do live on
:53:52. > :53:55.their own and do not have family and friends who could move in and
:53:55. > :54:00.make use of all their spare bedrooms, but the fact is there are
:54:00. > :54:04.no social housing they could move into. There is not the same
:54:04. > :54:07.sheltered housing accommodation available to them. They are stuck,
:54:07. > :54:11.and those are the ones we are picked -- who are paying additional
:54:11. > :54:16.fuel and heating bills. They cannot afford to heat their homes, so you
:54:16. > :54:22.are perpetuating this because there is nowhere for them to go.
:54:22. > :54:26.answer the question, I might well at some stage in the future want to
:54:26. > :54:32.sell my house and get something smaller, come that happy day when
:54:32. > :54:41.my children have grown up and flown the nest. It is not happy, it is
:54:41. > :54:46.not happy! You are losing votes by the score. What is wrong with your
:54:46. > :54:51.children? One of them plays the trumpet and the other one plays the
:54:51. > :54:57.violin. There may well come that time, but I certainly would not do
:54:57. > :55:01.it because they think tank told me I had to do it. I think if this
:55:01. > :55:07.bizarre notion raises a question at all, it maybe should give us pause
:55:07. > :55:11.to reflect on how we have changed as a society and how we have lost a
:55:11. > :55:17.sense of community. Because this is only the sort of notion that can
:55:17. > :55:23.come from a society that has lost the sense of community we used to
:55:24. > :55:30.have, which we still have in places like Orkney, where I live. I think
:55:30. > :55:35.there is a deeper and more serious problem. It is the fact that the
:55:35. > :55:39.old people are under siege in some way. We had this report last week
:55:39. > :55:43.about the NHS and how they were being treated, old people, which,
:55:43. > :55:48.because I do not live here and I live in America, I was completely
:55:48. > :55:54.shocked at this, the country that I come from, this was going on. And
:55:54. > :55:58.when I hear something like this, we really have to establish, and as
:55:58. > :56:02.people are getting older and we are going to have more older people, we
:56:02. > :56:06.really have to get our act together in taking care of them and actually
:56:06. > :56:10.honouring them in some kind of way. I would like to see more young
:56:10. > :56:15.people involved. I kept thinking, wouldn't it be a great thing if
:56:15. > :56:18.young people, as a service, as a public service, could going and
:56:19. > :56:22.talk and take care and speak to these elderly people, who are
:56:22. > :56:27.rapidly becoming more and more disenfranchised. And this is just
:56:27. > :56:33.another way of disenfranchising them. I think it is an awful
:56:33. > :56:42.situation. That is how life used to be, and we have lost that. The Boy
:56:42. > :56:48.Scouts will be starting Bob Bird Job Week again. -- Bob a job. We
:56:48. > :56:51.have come to the end of our time. Since you mentioned New York, what
:56:51. > :56:59.is the electricity price in New York. You were pontificating about
:56:59. > :57:06.prices here. It is all in. Where I live, it is all in, because it is
:57:06. > :57:10.part of the rent. So you keep warm, 70 degrees. And I live on top of a
:57:10. > :57:13.high-rise, so I get heat from everybody below. That brings us to
:57:13. > :57:19.the end of the programme. Next week, we will be in Winchester and we
:57:19. > :57:26.will have on the panel the Work and Pensions Secretary, Iain Duncan-
:57:26. > :57:29.Smith, and also Julian Alexander, who happens to be the creator of
:57:29. > :57:34.Downton Abbey. The week after that, we will be somewhere that Question
:57:34. > :57:37.Time has never been before, Westminster Hall in the Houses of
:57:37. > :57:41.Parliament, at the invitation of the officials there. If you want to