:00:17. > :00:18.Tonight, we are in Winchester, England's capital, until the
:00:18. > :00:23.Normans invaded and therefore a very good place to debate our place
:00:23. > :00:31.in Europe and anything else our audience wants to debate. Welcome
:00:31. > :00:36.to Question Time. I'm joined here in Winchester
:00:36. > :00:41.Cathedral by the Work and Pensions Secretary, Iain Duncan Smith, the
:00:41. > :00:45.Shadow Home Office Minister, Gloria De Piero, the leader of the UK
:00:45. > :00:50.Independence Party, Nigel Farage, the Liberal Democrat MP, Jo Swinson,
:00:50. > :01:00.and the Oscar-winning Julian Fellowes, who created the TV series,
:01:00. > :01:08.
:01:08. > :01:13.Downton Abbey, and is a recently APPLAUSE
:01:13. > :01:19.Our first question comes from Nigel Dallard, please?
:01:19. > :01:24.In the vote on the EU referendum, why weren't MPs given the freedom
:01:24. > :01:27.to represent the views of the public in their constituencies?
:01:27. > :01:33.weren't they given the freedom, in other words to vote as they like,
:01:33. > :01:38.yes? Yes. Iain Duncan Smith? Well, the...
:01:38. > :01:48.reportedly said, according to today's papers. I thought I might
:01:48. > :01:51.get away with it... "ever put me in that position again, that's it!"
:01:51. > :01:54.haven't had that confrontation with the Chief Whip but that shouldn't
:01:54. > :01:58.stop the press having a good time with it. So you didn't object to
:01:58. > :02:01.the three line whip? What I discussed with the party was
:02:01. > :02:05.another matter, but the general sense is I'm not going to get
:02:05. > :02:09.caught up in that. The question is about why there was a three Lynn
:02:09. > :02:14.whip and the Government takes the view, as the coalition, that the
:02:14. > :02:17.position they've got on Europe is that this particular motion was at
:02:18. > :02:22.the wrong time and really about the wrong issue. The motion itself was
:02:22. > :02:25.a rather complicated motion that if in fact you tried to implement that
:02:25. > :02:28.motion which had three or four different options inside it, it
:02:28. > :02:31.would have been almost impossible. I think you can argue that it's a
:02:31. > :02:33.mark of some respect that the Government says, look, it's a
:02:34. > :02:36.serious motion, the Government position has to be on display, the
:02:36. > :02:39.Government has to say if it's for or against it, the Government
:02:39. > :02:47.decided it was against it, it thought it would be wrong at this
:02:47. > :02:51.particular time when we've got the euro in crisis and us unsure about
:02:51. > :02:56.what's happening, unsure about whether they'll be able to create a
:02:56. > :02:59.rescue package. The reality is that Britain still gets caught by what
:02:59. > :03:04.happens in Europe although they are out of the euro and I celebrate
:03:04. > :03:07.that every day. Now is not the time to push for a set referendum, nor
:03:07. > :03:09.is the time to get ourselves complicated with this motion. The
:03:09. > :03:14.Government was going to vote against it, the Government in power
:03:14. > :03:22.has the rigt to say to backbenchers, look, we don't think you should
:03:22. > :03:24.vote for this -- right. Hang on, we are... Can I finish the point.
:03:24. > :03:29.Having rebelled myself over Maastricht and Europe before, the
:03:29. > :03:35.simple point is this... And defying a three line whip? Yes, if you feel
:03:35. > :03:40.strongly enough about something, then you take that principal and
:03:40. > :03:43.make a decision and those that did voted against. The thought that you
:03:43. > :03:48.can bully and cajole everybody that did is nonsense. I didn't when my
:03:48. > :03:53.moment was right and they didn't this time and that's fine. The
:03:53. > :03:56.three line whip is about policy and they have to take their own choices.
:03:57. > :04:04.When you were running for the leadership of the party, Mrs
:04:05. > :04:08.Thatcher said of you, about that defying a three line whip, he put
:04:08. > :04:11.his integrity before his ambition. Is this an occasion on which you
:04:11. > :04:15.put your ambition before your integrity? No, I don't have an
:04:15. > :04:19.ambition. I came into Government for one reason and one reason only,
:04:19. > :04:23.to try and reform welfare and change society, that is my purpose
:04:23. > :04:26.in being in here. I've spent the last eight years with the Centre
:04:26. > :04:31.for Social Justice, trying to get to a position where we actually at
:04:31. > :04:34.last could reform welfare to change that culture of entitlement and
:04:34. > :04:37.dependency. That's why I'm here. When it comes to Europe, I'm clear
:04:37. > :04:40.about my position, as is the Government. We believe there needs
:04:40. > :04:44.to be a re-adjustment of that relationship. The question in front
:04:44. > :04:47.of us on Monday, David, was very simple - do you think this motion,
:04:47. > :04:51.which had two or three different items in it was the right motion to
:04:51. > :04:55.put to the British public - the answer is no, I the do not think
:04:55. > :04:58.that was the case. On a free vote, you would have voted against it?
:04:58. > :05:02.my position was that it was the wrong motion and I retain that.
:05:02. > :05:06.It's important for a Government to have an opinion and view and if
:05:06. > :05:10.backbenchers feel strongly about that, that's fine, don't weep too
:05:10. > :05:15.many tears about people making the choice, if they have the guts or
:05:15. > :05:19.courage, call them to account. The woman in the third row there?
:05:19. > :05:23.Arguably, a lot of the policies that come to Parliament are made up
:05:23. > :05:28.by Parliament and by Government itself. As far as I'm aware, this
:05:28. > :05:32.came from a pole that was suggested by the Prime Minister himself.
:05:32. > :05:39.the public vote? By the public. Does that not prove that there was
:05:39. > :05:43.a want from the public to have this referendum? And therefore why
:05:43. > :05:47.shouldn't we? Nigel Farage, what do you make of the Government's
:05:47. > :05:50.position? The idea that e-petitions could spark this, it was a great
:05:50. > :05:54.idea, young people thought it was great, they could engage with the
:05:54. > :05:58.process. And at the first time it succeeds, we get a debate on the
:05:58. > :06:02.floor of the House of Commons, cynically, the three party leader
:06:02. > :06:06.close down free speech, free voting on this issue and people will ask
:06:06. > :06:09.themselves, is there any point in future in bothering to get
:06:09. > :06:13.signatures on these e-petitions and that I think is really rather sad.
:06:13. > :06:17.But the answer to the question is very simple - why no freedom of
:06:17. > :06:20.vote - very easily, the political class in this country, all three
:06:20. > :06:24.political parties who're represented here on this platform
:06:24. > :06:29.have made their minds up. They've made their minds up that we must be
:06:29. > :06:34.part of this new European state and the one thing they will absolutely
:06:34. > :06:39.make sure we can never ever do is express our opinion on it. David
:06:39. > :06:46.Cameron himself, the man who of course gave a cast iron guarantee
:06:46. > :06:49.that he'd give us a referendum... That's rubbish. No, That's what he
:06:49. > :06:53.wrote. Nigel, the Government's given the public a referendum on
:06:53. > :06:58.any future treaty. I voted for that at Maastricht and they have a
:06:58. > :07:02.referendum. Oh, please. So don't say they'll never have a vote on
:07:02. > :07:06.anything. This is so weak. This is the game you play in which you try
:07:06. > :07:10.and cast everybody as an extremist. Your leader wrote in the Sun
:07:10. > :07:13.newspaper, I give you this cast iron guarantee that if I'm the
:07:13. > :07:17.Prime Minister, the British will have their say on the
:07:17. > :07:21.Constitutional Treaty. He's broken his promise and I must say, I think
:07:21. > :07:25.Cameron, Clegg and Miliband are wrong. The last time we discussed
:07:25. > :07:29.the most important constitutional question of our generation was back
:07:29. > :07:35.in 1975. It's a long time ago. You have to be over 54. My parents
:07:35. > :07:39.voted yes, they voted for a Common Market. Not for political union.
:07:39. > :07:43.There are 30 million of us under the age of 54 who've never been
:07:43. > :07:53.asked. I thought what happened in the Commons on Monday was a
:07:53. > :07:54.
:07:54. > :07:57.disgrace. As yew rightly said, all three main
:07:57. > :08:01.political parties whipped their members to vote against this.
:08:01. > :08:04.Gloria De Piero, do you think that was the right decision by Labour,
:08:04. > :08:09.given, as the woman there said, that this was the British public
:08:09. > :08:12.saying they wanted a vote on this issue? Why weren't mens given a
:08:12. > :08:15.free vote? I think the Labour Party were in exactly the right place and
:08:15. > :08:19.the gentleman asked the question about, should you put the interests
:08:19. > :08:23.of your constituents above a three line whip. I take my responsibility
:08:23. > :08:27.as a representative, the MP for Ashfield, really, really seriously,
:08:27. > :08:32.and I go out every week and I knock on doors in Ashfield and I
:08:32. > :08:37.absolutely hand on heart say to you that, I'm not saying it never comes
:08:37. > :08:40.up, it probably comes up genuinely one out of 100 doors and I will
:08:40. > :08:43.tell you what people want to talk to me about, they want to talk to
:08:43. > :08:49.me about their fears for the economy, about the fears for jobs,
:08:49. > :08:54.about the fears for their children and there are also talking to me
:08:54. > :08:58.about the lack of police presence. That is genuinely what I see. I was
:08:59. > :09:03.in the chamber on Monday and, honestly, I've been an MP for 18
:09:03. > :09:07.months, and I looked at the Conservative benchers and I've
:09:07. > :09:10.never seen such passion, such electricity. You know, there were
:09:10. > :09:14.points where I thought Halloween might have come early, people were
:09:14. > :09:19.kind of almost frothing at the mouth at some point and I just
:09:19. > :09:23.thought, you know what... Kate Hoey and people like that, you mean,
:09:23. > :09:28.your own members? Excuse me. I heard one Conservative MP speak in
:09:28. > :09:32.favour of his party leader and he got jeered from his own side.
:09:32. > :09:37.do you deduce from this? I'll tell you something. If I saw a fraction
:09:37. > :09:41.of the passion and the emotion that I saw on Monday night in that
:09:41. > :09:45.chamber about having 16,000 fewer police officers, then maybe...
:09:45. > :09:49.don't appear to be answering the question that Nigel Dallard asked
:09:49. > :09:54.which was over 100,000 people asked for this debate. Why couldn't the
:09:54. > :09:58.parties leave MPs to make their minds up. It doesn't matter how you
:09:58. > :10:03.would have voted had you not been whipped, but your parties were told
:10:03. > :10:07.how to vote? It's about leadership. I know that people have a Downer on
:10:07. > :10:12.the political class, even if you don't like politicians. Let me say
:10:12. > :10:15.this, business leaders, Trade Union leaders, if it was really that bad
:10:15. > :10:18.for British jobs and British business, wouldn't they be leading
:10:18. > :10:25.the cause, but they're not because they know it's the right thing to
:10:25. > :10:32.do to stay in Europe for prosperity. You, Sir? Hypothetically, if
:10:32. > :10:34.British was to leave the European Union and that would surely damage
:10:34. > :10:39.our relationship with the other countries in the European Union who
:10:39. > :10:42.we do an awful lot of trade with? We are going to talk about that in
:10:42. > :10:45.a moment. That's not the question we are talking about now, which is
:10:45. > :10:49.whether or not MPs should have been able to decide on a referendum or
:10:49. > :10:53.not. We'll perhaps come back to that. You, Sir? If now is not the
:10:53. > :10:57.right time, when is the right time going to be, Iain? I agree. Do you
:10:57. > :10:59.want me to answer that? Yes. There's got to be a genuine
:10:59. > :11:09.discussion about what our relationship with Europe should be
:11:09. > :11:19.
:11:19. > :11:24.pand what that means in terms of the powers that Europe and we hold
:11:24. > :11:27.-- and what that means. We are in danger of the euro going into
:11:27. > :11:30.meltdown which would suck us down with it. What the Government was
:11:30. > :11:33.worrying about, legitimately, was to start down the process of
:11:33. > :11:36.suggesting at that time that there was a process of referendum leading
:11:36. > :11:41.to all sorts of dislocations later to the rest of Europe would cause
:11:41. > :11:45.all sorts of problems. This was not the time to start that process.
:11:45. > :11:50.That was the reason why. Thank you. Jo Swinson, I want to put a quote
:11:50. > :11:54.to you, this was from you in 2008, there's been a debate on Britain's
:11:54. > :11:58.role in Europe for years without voters having had the chance to
:11:58. > :12:02.give their opinion in the ball bot box. It's been over 30 years since
:12:02. > :12:10.the British had a say. To deny them the vote would be a travesty of
:12:10. > :12:13.justice and you voted against a referendum. Why? B -- ballot box?
:12:13. > :12:18.voted on the manifesto which said next time there was a change
:12:18. > :12:22.orpowers in a treaty to Europe from Britain, there should be a
:12:22. > :12:26.referendum on our role within Europe. Not only have we stuck to
:12:26. > :12:30.that, we've actually legislated to mean that that is what has to
:12:31. > :12:34.happen. So, there will be a referendum if there is a future
:12:34. > :12:39.change of powers between our relationship with the EU. To answer
:12:39. > :12:42.Nigel's question directly - I mean first of all, I would say that
:12:42. > :12:45.although parties whip, every MP I believe has to take responsibility
:12:45. > :12:50.for the way they vote. It's not some kind of cop out to say, well,
:12:50. > :12:55.I was whipped, because it's always a decision an individual MP can
:12:55. > :12:58.make. Obviously, the Government and indeed the opposition presents a
:12:58. > :13:02.programme that they are outlining and for that to have coherence,
:13:02. > :13:05.they'll have a line that they will whip on so that you're not just
:13:05. > :13:10.having a group of independents that aren't actually working together as
:13:10. > :13:13.a team. But, each MP at each vote and decision still has the
:13:13. > :13:19.responsibility and the right to make a different decision if they
:13:19. > :13:25.think that is what was right. On Monday night, we had just had a
:13:25. > :13:29.debt crisis summit on Sunday in Europe with a follow up due to
:13:29. > :13:32.happen on Wednesday and, bearing in mind that, as Gloria says, the
:13:32. > :13:37.issues that most of my constituents say they're most concerned about
:13:37. > :13:43.are the jobs, the economy and their future, given that half of our
:13:43. > :13:48.trade is with Europe and the EU and given that 3.5 million jobs in the
:13:48. > :13:52.UK depend on the EU, I think in the middle of that debt crisis, our
:13:52. > :13:56.priority has to absolutely be sorting out the eurozone crisis.
:13:56. > :14:00.just to clarify the point - the petition from the British public
:14:00. > :14:04.that was meant to incite a debate in the House of Commons... It did.
:14:04. > :14:09.Does not mean that MPs should obey party discipline, in other words
:14:09. > :14:14.it's not an invitation to a conscience fro vote by MPs? Free
:14:14. > :14:18.votes should be that, on the matters of conscience. Every MP can
:14:18. > :14:22.decide how they vote. Let's have another couple of members of the
:14:22. > :14:26.audience. The man with spectacles? There were stories of aggressive
:14:27. > :14:31.and abuse you have texts being sent by the whips to Members of
:14:32. > :14:41.Parliament, I would like to know if the panel thinks that's sound
:14:42. > :14:43.
:14:43. > :14:49.I think this is a difficult issue, because the crisis going on in
:14:49. > :14:53.Europe is enormous at the moment. We are all pretending that these
:14:53. > :14:57.bail-outs and thing will help, but it's very clear to almost all that
:14:57. > :15:01.the only way of saving the euro is for the eurozone to essentially
:15:01. > :15:05.become one country, with a single government. This is a huge change
:15:06. > :15:09.in the make-up of Europe and the idea this would be a good moment
:15:09. > :15:15.when we are facing this enormous development, if it happens, that it
:15:15. > :15:18.would be a good moment to start talking about repatriating appeal
:15:18. > :15:22.laws or straight cucumbers, I do believe that David Cameron is
:15:22. > :15:27.committed to a referendum. I don't have any problem with that at all.
:15:27. > :15:31.He's put it in the manifesto and I'm sure he means to deal with it
:15:31. > :15:38.when the manifesto condition comes through, but the idea that this is
:15:38. > :15:42.now a time to start fiddling, when we may be looking after a enormous
:15:42. > :15:47.recession if the euro goes under and the last few days have not been
:15:47. > :15:53.very encouraging. I think, in life, timing is everything. I'm as euro
:15:53. > :15:56.sceptic as the next man - well, not probably as this next man - but
:15:56. > :15:59.nevertheless, I think there is a moment where you have to allow the
:15:59. > :16:07.Government to deal with the really important stuff. The woman here in
:16:07. > :16:11.the third row. I think it's fine to have a referendum on Europe and the
:16:11. > :16:14.British role in it, provided that the British voting public is
:16:14. > :16:19.equipped with the information that they need to make an informed
:16:19. > :16:23.choice. And the person up there. What good is David Cameron saying
:16:23. > :16:29.that there will be a referendum if any more powers will be brought to
:16:29. > :16:36.the EU, when the previous government signed the Lisbon Treaty
:16:36. > :16:44.and a lot of our powers have gone to Europe? 75% of our laws. That is
:16:44. > :16:51.just wrong, Nigel. Hold on. true. Wait, panel. Some years ago
:16:51. > :16:56.the Irish government or the Irish people voted in a referendum
:16:56. > :16:59.against part of the EU and for the next year they were bullied and
:16:59. > :17:03.blackmailed and everything until they changed their mind. Isn't that
:17:03. > :17:06.likely to happen to us? You don't think there is a merit in the
:17:06. > :17:11.referendum, because the Government will have their way in the end?
:17:11. > :17:16.think we have to be very careful. question now from Simon Davies.
:17:16. > :17:21.Does the eurozone debt agreement mean the UK is now a second-class
:17:21. > :17:24.citizen? Let me repeat this, because it is echoing here. Does
:17:24. > :17:31.the eurozone debt agreement mean the UK is now a second-class
:17:31. > :17:35.country in the EU? Jo Swinson? don't think it has to mean that,
:17:35. > :17:39.but I think that the question that Simon's posing is one that it's
:17:39. > :17:42.important for us to be disgusting, because there is a danger of that.
:17:42. > :17:47.-- discussing, because there is a danger of that. The euro and the
:17:47. > :17:51.zone is in a very, very difficult place at the moment. Last night's
:17:51. > :17:55.deal was positive, but it's far from out of the woods yet. If the
:17:55. > :17:59.euro is going to be able to continue and survive, then those
:17:59. > :18:03.countries are going to have to come closer in terms of their tax and
:18:03. > :18:06.spending and the way that their economies are running and obviously
:18:06. > :18:10.some decisions and co-ordination between the 17 countries will need
:18:10. > :18:16.to be done. There is a genuine danger that as one of the ten
:18:16. > :18:20.countries not in the eurozone, that the UK could somehow be left out. I
:18:20. > :18:23.think that as the negotiations go on, that is what is absolutely
:18:23. > :18:28.crucial in Britain's national interest, to make sure that we get
:18:28. > :18:33.that relationship right. Where are the threats that you foresee? What
:18:33. > :18:37.is it that could do damage to us? For example, if it were to fall
:18:37. > :18:41.into the habit that the decisions were being made by a sort of caucus
:18:41. > :18:45.of the 17 countries, that they formed lines on a range of issues
:18:45. > :18:49.that were nothing to do with the euro and the specifics of the zone,
:18:50. > :18:55.then I think that would be not helpful. The Government is already
:18:55. > :18:59.actually doing a lot to mitigate against this, so Ed Davey is
:18:59. > :19:02.working with about 14 other countries on measures to increase
:19:02. > :19:06.deregulation and to promote growth with like-minded countries and a
:19:06. > :19:12.lot of that goes on and should continue. We need to build up those
:19:12. > :19:15.relationships, but it's a good question. I think, if you like,
:19:15. > :19:20.that is where the genuine debate needs to be have, to make sure
:19:20. > :19:28.Britain plays a strong and leading role in Europe for the future.
:19:28. > :19:31.Nigel, I'll come to you later. Gloria De Piero from Labour's point
:19:31. > :19:37.of view, does it mean what has happened in Europe over yesterday
:19:37. > :19:45.and over the last few days, mean we are in a position of a second-class
:19:45. > :19:50.member of the EU? Not if we have political leadership. And by that I
:19:50. > :19:55.mean that our Prime Minister is focused on getting around that
:19:55. > :19:59.table, putting forward the British case, and not arguing with his own
:19:59. > :20:03.MPs. My goodness, I can't honestly believe that we could be in this
:20:03. > :20:08.position again, 18 months into a Tory Government. I remember when I
:20:08. > :20:12.was in my youth in my teens seeing the Tories tear themselves over
:20:12. > :20:19.this issue. The reason my interest in the zone working is because I
:20:19. > :20:23.care about British jobs and British businesses. If a business here or
:20:23. > :20:27.in my constituency is thinking can I take on some more workers or
:20:27. > :20:33.perhaps could I expand? If they are making goods then they are going to
:20:33. > :20:37.think about who they'll sell them to. You say it is important that
:20:37. > :20:41.the British Prime Minister plays the strong hand in Europe. You
:20:41. > :20:45.remember the French President, Sarkozy, saying to Cameron, "We are
:20:45. > :20:50.sick of you criticising us and telling us what to do. You say you
:20:50. > :20:55.hate the euro and now you want to interfere in our meeting." It's a
:20:55. > :20:59.badge of honour. That sounds like someone playing a firm hand and
:20:59. > :21:04.your leader says, "You spoke not just for France, but for Britain as
:21:04. > :21:08.well." What did he mean? I suspect he was thinking for many Tory MPs
:21:08. > :21:11.as well when he said, "You come along at the last minute and you
:21:11. > :21:15.lecture us." Be serious, you say you want the Prime Minister to be
:21:15. > :21:20.strong and he appears to do so and the French President objects and
:21:20. > :21:24.the leader of the Labour Party says the French President is right.
:21:24. > :21:28.think the point was that if you go around being so critical and
:21:28. > :21:32.negative, actually, lowering your own MPs because your own position
:21:32. > :21:38.depends on it, into that kind of false sense of security to think
:21:38. > :21:42.that David Cameron might be up for renegotiating all these issues.
:21:42. > :21:46.don't think we should interfere in the eurozone and give advice or say
:21:46. > :21:55.what suits us? Yes, of course, we should. Say what you like about
:21:55. > :22:00.Gordon Brown, when I was a reporter, the G20 - Who is saying what they
:22:00. > :22:04.like about Gordon Brown? I was really proud to be a Brit, because
:22:04. > :22:09.people were looking to Gordon Brown for a solution to a global
:22:09. > :22:14.financial crisis and that made me proud. Not the Labour Party though!
:22:14. > :22:17.That made me proud to be British and I would like to see that kind
:22:17. > :22:20.of leadership from David Cameron. David, you said that my views would
:22:20. > :22:21.The headlines: Stock market surge after Europe's leaders strike a
:22:21. > :22:23.provoke the panel. I hope they do. deal to double the eurozone and
:22:23. > :22:26.I think the political class in this rescue fund.
:22:26. > :22:27.The French President says Greece and every other class has got this
:22:27. > :22:29.should not have been allowed to whole debt crisis completely and
:22:29. > :22:31.join the euro. Greece says it is utterly wrong and the people's of -
:22:31. > :22:33.not the source of the current - the peoples of Europe are waking
:22:33. > :22:34.problems. Serial killer Robert Black is found
:22:34. > :22:36.up to the fact that what we are doing in the name of saving the
:22:36. > :22:40.guilty of the murder of nine-year- zone is making things far, far
:22:40. > :22:42.old Jennifer Cardy, 30 years ago. worse. We are imprisoning countries
:22:42. > :22:43.The canon of St Paul's cathedral in the south of Europe inside
:22:43. > :22:46.something they should never have steps down over the handling of the
:22:46. > :22:49.joined. It is leading to violence process camp on his doorstep.
:22:49. > :22:55.would like the camps to move on because I think he has an effect on
:22:55. > :23:00.small traders, ordinary people in the area, but I am not prepared to
:23:00. > :23:10.sanction the use of force. Saving Bangkok from floods. Thousands of
:23:10. > :23:23.
:23:23. > :23:25.people fully as an emergency five- and disorder on the streets. The
:23:25. > :23:27.The French President says it is a British will have to be relegated
:23:27. > :23:31.plan that has saved the world from to the status of a country likely
:23:31. > :23:32.catastrophe. Markets around the globe have surged following the
:23:32. > :23:35.deal to contain eurozone debt Switzerland. I thought it doesn't
:23:35. > :23:37.sound too bad to me. If it means we crisis. It is hoped the agreement,
:23:38. > :23:39.have the same terms of trade with reached by leaders of the 17 and
:23:39. > :23:41.euros countries this morning, will Europe, that is good by me. If it
:23:41. > :23:45.be enough to prevent the collapse means we are one of the richest
:23:45. > :23:49.countries in Europe per capita that is good by me, and if it means we
:23:49. > :23:54.can have referendums that are meaningful, but I would argue that
:23:54. > :23:58.what we want to do is free trade with Europe and be good
:23:58. > :24:01.neighboursened, but let's become not a second-class citizen. Let's
:24:01. > :24:11.become a first-class country in the world. That is the future for this
:24:11. > :24:12.
:24:12. > :24:15.country. Iain Duncan Smith. reality now, I think, is something
:24:15. > :24:19.that those of us who are against the euro from the beginning and I
:24:19. > :24:23.was and when I was leader I was pleased that we led the party never
:24:23. > :24:25.to join and I never want the country to join, because I think
:24:25. > :24:29.it's been enormously damaging to some of the countries in Europe and
:24:29. > :24:38.they are in deep trouble as a result. I think the real issue here
:24:38. > :24:41.is what has happened now is reality has struck. Today, -- That was
:24:41. > :24:46.reality striking. You speak in a church tanned just happens! The
:24:46. > :24:50.point is that reality has struck and it means you cannot have a
:24:50. > :24:53.single currency without full, political union, which is where you
:24:53. > :24:56.have centralised taxation and control from a centralised
:24:56. > :24:59.organisation like the Government. The point about this is, that is
:24:59. > :25:03.what will happen for the eurozone countries, so I don't think this is
:25:03. > :25:06.an issue about being left behind for Britain, or relegated. The
:25:06. > :25:10.reality is I don't recall that the United States has been relegated,
:25:10. > :25:14.but they are not part of the euro and nor are lot of other countries
:25:14. > :25:18.thank you very much indeed and Britain has the capacity to trade
:25:18. > :25:22.and deliver for its own country, run by the people that are elected
:25:22. > :25:26.by this country, but still at the same time, with a good relationship
:25:26. > :25:32.with Europe and trading and co- operating. You don't have to go
:25:32. > :25:37.into the euro to remain prosperous and self-governing and that's a
:25:37. > :25:42.good idea. Probably in the First Division. Are you saying there is
:25:42. > :25:50.no danger to Britain's position in the EU, which after all the United
:25:50. > :25:55.States isn't, in those who are in the eurozone taking measureures --
:25:55. > :25:59.measures that will damage us? these will be matters that are
:25:59. > :26:04.hugely going to be debates and rows. David Cameron, for example, when he
:26:04. > :26:08.was having this row with the French President, which I think was rather
:26:08. > :26:12.wonderful moment when they snipped at him and they snipped for one
:26:12. > :26:15.reason, because he had said that whatever else you do, the member of
:26:15. > :26:19.the EU have a right and say over what happens next and that was the
:26:19. > :26:24.point. He made that point and had that carried on Wednesday. The key
:26:24. > :26:29.point is of coursual you'll have debates, but the reality is that
:26:29. > :26:33.there will be two parts of Europe. There will be eurozone that has to
:26:33. > :26:35.plunge deeper and those outside who will trade and co-operate but do
:26:36. > :26:45.not want to plummet into the single currency, which the Labour Party
:26:45. > :26:50.wants to do. I find it amazing that the Liberal Democrats, who voted
:26:51. > :26:55.consistently that Britain should take up the euro, haven't
:26:55. > :27:00.apologised for that. I think that many on the Labour side as well
:27:00. > :27:04.voted we should take up the euro. Very haven't apologised for that.
:27:04. > :27:06.Joining the euro would have been an awful mistake and I think the
:27:06. > :27:13.Conservatives deserve full credit for not taking us into the euro.
:27:13. > :27:17.What do you think about the position now? If Iain Duncan Smith
:27:17. > :27:21.is right and it's got to become a political entity? I think Britain
:27:21. > :27:25.needs to focus on improving productivity and getting industries
:27:25. > :27:29.-- rather attracting leading industries. I think that is the
:27:29. > :27:32.thing that will rescue Britain. question of second-rate status in
:27:32. > :27:36.Europe? None at all. Julian Fellowes. Nigel reminds me of the
:27:36. > :27:42.man who was asked for directions and said, "If I would you, I
:27:42. > :27:46.wouldn't start from me." The truth is this, this is where we are. It
:27:46. > :27:49.is becoming as Iain Duncan Smith said, very clear, that the eurozone
:27:49. > :27:52.is going to have to effectively become one country with state
:27:52. > :27:56.differences like in America or whatever, but it is going to be one
:27:56. > :28:00.country. I think that is quite wrong for Britain. I do not think
:28:00. > :28:04.we would be content in that relationship and if the price of
:28:04. > :28:08.staying out of it, is to be viewed as some kind of second thing, it's
:28:08. > :28:12.a price we have to pay, but I don't think it's a done deal, because the
:28:12. > :28:15.new Europe that emerges will be different. We will have a different
:28:15. > :28:21.relationship. We'll have the States in it and the States not in it. I
:28:21. > :28:31.think we will be happier, not in it. Thank you very much. We must move
:28:31. > :28:35.
:28:35. > :28:45.on. If you want to tweet toify, remember our hash tag: -- tonight,
:28:45. > :28:48.
:28:48. > :28:58.remember our hash tag is: James Kirkwood has the next question.
:28:58. > :28:59.
:28:59. > :29:04.Would Jesus have cleared the temple of demonstrators? St Paul's. Julian
:29:04. > :29:07.Fellowes. I think it's rather harsh to alone line them with money
:29:07. > :29:12.lenders. This is a difficult issue, because you have got two points,
:29:12. > :29:14.one, do we like the fact we live in a country where you are allowed to
:29:14. > :29:18.protest against the Government or policy without any reper
:29:18. > :29:22.suggestions? Yes, we do. However, the other one is do they have the
:29:22. > :29:30.right to spoil the place, to spoil Parliament Square and spoil St
:29:30. > :29:35.Paul's and so on? You are weighing the two up. It's a tricky one. I'm
:29:35. > :29:37.not completely convinced that St Paul's played it correctly and that
:29:37. > :29:43.the health and safety considerations precipitated their
:29:43. > :29:47.actions, but nevertheless, even if they did, in the end what is more
:29:47. > :29:51.important that a place of beauty is kept charming for tourists and
:29:51. > :29:55.everything else and I don't that is unimportant, but is it more
:29:55. > :30:05.important than the right to protest without the fear of midnight
:30:05. > :30:13.
:30:14. > :30:17.arrests and police thumping over APPLAUSE
:30:17. > :30:21.The health and safety concerns are obviously very much in the
:30:21. > :30:29.forefront of St Paul's Cathedral's mind. The first on the list was the
:30:29. > :30:32.risk of walking into or tripping over guy ropes attached to trees,
:30:32. > :30:37.ballards and lampposts. Jo Swinson, what do you think of this snfpblgts
:30:37. > :30:43.I certainly understand the anger the protestors are feeling -- I
:30:43. > :30:46.certainly understand the anger the protestors are feeling. You
:30:46. > :30:48.understand about the massive pay differentials we see in the
:30:48. > :30:53.corporate world and the duflttys people face because of the debt
:30:53. > :30:56.crisis that we are facing in Europe and the problems in our own country
:30:56. > :31:00.-- difficulties. It's a very, very difficult time and absolutely
:31:00. > :31:04.Julian is right, people have the right the to protest. What is sad
:31:04. > :31:11.about this case and seeing the interview with Dr Fraser who'd
:31:11. > :31:15.resigned earlier on today, came across incredibly honourable,
:31:15. > :31:18.thoughtful and who couldn't deal with this on his conscience, at the
:31:18. > :31:21.same time not criticising his colleagues. What is said is that I
:31:21. > :31:25.don't think it's actually doing anyone any good any more. It's
:31:25. > :31:29.clearly not good for St Paul's, it's not good for the local
:31:29. > :31:33.shopkeepers and traders who are losing out and who I'm sure are not
:31:33. > :31:37.actually the target of the people who're protesting, but I think it's
:31:37. > :31:40.almost getting to the stage where it's not even helpful to the
:31:40. > :31:43.protestors because what are we discussing tonight - the location
:31:43. > :31:46.and whether or not they should be in St Paul's and perhaps if they
:31:46. > :31:49.were able to come to an agreement to move to a different location,
:31:49. > :31:55.the focus could be again on what they are protesting about and the
:31:55. > :32:00.real issues, rather than this row. What is a useful protest and what
:32:00. > :32:04.is not? I do not think it's up to the police to decide and go in, but
:32:04. > :32:07.I think it would be helpful if people could get round a table and
:32:07. > :32:10.recognise that if they were to agree to move to another location,
:32:10. > :32:15.they might get the discussion on the media back into the discussions
:32:15. > :32:22.they are protesting about, rather than the fuss about St Paul's.
:32:22. > :32:28.Sir? The reaction of the people running St Paul's, I remember as a
:32:28. > :32:34.child being a cockney born and bred and still proud of it, that it
:32:34. > :32:41.never closed during the war. Why now? These people do not threaten
:32:41. > :32:45.St Paults's -- St Paul's like bombs and rockets did. Why are we doing
:32:45. > :32:49.this? There is absolutely no need for it. Iain Duncan Smith, do you
:32:49. > :32:53.want to answer that? I'm with the gentleman here. I am responsible,
:32:53. > :32:58.by the way, for health and safety, so I just want to say something.
:32:58. > :33:01.They're often blamed for all of this, but no-one checks with health
:33:01. > :33:04.and safety whether or not there is a risk so I don't know but I must
:33:04. > :33:07.say, I'm suspicious about the fact that the general public can't be
:33:07. > :33:10.allowed to negotiate their own way into St Paul's without causing
:33:10. > :33:14.problems. That's the first point, so I think sometimes it's like
:33:14. > :33:16.Wimbledon during the summer when they close the mound and said
:33:16. > :33:19.health and safety when the Health and Safety Executive said don't be
:33:19. > :33:22.stupid, people have been sliding down grassy slopes with rain for
:33:22. > :33:28.years, so let's get this in perspective. The second thing I
:33:28. > :33:32.want to say is that, I think the issue - I agree with Julian to a
:33:32. > :33:36.point - but when does it stop being a protest and become simply a way
:33:37. > :33:40.of life. And, in Westminster, in Parliament Square, it's ridiculous.
:33:40. > :33:44.They've been camped out there. When you ask them what they are doing,
:33:44. > :33:48.most aren't there on a protest, they're there because that's the
:33:48. > :33:51.place to be. The result of all of it, it's become a desecration of
:33:52. > :33:56.Parliament Square and it's time for them to move on and we get silly
:33:56. > :33:59.about it. The other thing I want to say, about St Paul's, which I find
:33:59. > :34:03.strange. When we looked at it through the heat cameras, we found
:34:03. > :34:08.that so much for their protests, when it got a bit dark and cold,
:34:08. > :34:15.they went home. I don't know why St Paul's didn't go out, clear the
:34:15. > :34:18.area overnight and give the tents to the real homeless.
:34:18. > :34:21.APPLAUSE You, Sir? I personally find it
:34:21. > :34:25.highly ironic that the Government of this country provides weapons
:34:25. > :34:30.and air supports to violent protestors in other countries, yet
:34:30. > :34:35.does everything it can to discredit peaceful protests... It hasn't done
:34:35. > :34:39.anything of the sort, they've been there for three years. What you
:34:39. > :34:47.just said wasn't true, the tents that showed up on the heat imaging
:34:47. > :34:52.cameras were ones that had gas heaters inside. Nigel Farage?
:34:52. > :34:56.we are in Winchester Cathedral, and how would you feel, as residents of
:34:56. > :34:59.Winchester, if the new Dale Farm was set up outside the gates and
:34:59. > :35:02.you couldn't have come to this show or to worship on a Sunday. You
:35:02. > :35:06.would be angry about it. So the answer is that Jesus would have
:35:06. > :35:09.cleared them away on the basis that they were stopping religious
:35:09. > :35:15.services from continuing and because I feel that so many of the
:35:15. > :35:19.people that are there, getting back to Ian's point, actually are the
:35:19. > :35:25.sons and daughters of daddy who's a successful banker in the city and
:35:25. > :35:30.they go home to Hampstead in the evening and come back with a packed
:35:30. > :35:34.lunch mummy's made them the next day. The elements aren't genuine. I
:35:34. > :35:37.hope they are removed and the absolute deadline before we get
:35:37. > :35:41.tough ought to be Remembrance Sunday because if they were still
:35:41. > :35:44.there, and if there was a problem with Remembrance Sunday services
:35:44. > :35:48.going ahead, that really would be wrong.
:35:48. > :35:51.APPLAUSE The woman up there?
:35:51. > :35:55.Yes? Nigel Farage criticises his perceived lack of democracy in
:35:55. > :36:00.Europe, yet when there is true democracy on the streets, you want
:36:00. > :36:04.it gotten rid of. No, I'm happy with protest, absolutely happy with
:36:04. > :36:08.protest. I mean, surely we want protest, but to we want religious
:36:08. > :36:14.services in one of the most important churchs in this country
:36:14. > :36:19.stopped? I don't think we do. That's not reasonable protest.
:36:19. > :36:25.Gloria? When I was in my teens, I went on a lot of demos, slept out
:36:25. > :36:29.in protest at the homeless and you know, it's part of my political
:36:29. > :36:35.awakening and I respected people's right to do their thing, obviously
:36:35. > :36:38.lots of people don't have time to protest in that way but still feel
:36:38. > :36:43.incredible anger about the fact that we continue to pay for the
:36:43. > :36:49.mistakes of the bankers while they seem not to be suffering so much.
:36:49. > :36:54.That is why, for instance, we are saying, as a Labour Party, repeat
:36:54. > :36:59.the bankers' bonus tax and get 100,000 young people back into work.
:36:59. > :37:02.Thank you. I would agree with you, Nigel, about Remembrance Sunday. We
:37:02. > :37:07.respect your right to protest, but please also respect our right to
:37:07. > :37:11.pay tribute to those who've paid the ultimate sacrifice. And allowed
:37:11. > :37:14.you to protest, exactly. The man in the spectacles there? I would like
:37:14. > :37:21.to understand how sitting in a tent with a mask on, hurling abuse at
:37:21. > :37:26.people going to work is actually helping the global economy? OK. And
:37:26. > :37:33.you, Sir? I think Jesus might scratch his beard at being asked
:37:33. > :37:39.for �14.50 to go into St Paul's in the first place.
:37:39. > :37:44.APPLAUSE On that note, let's move on.
:37:44. > :37:48.Rosalind Barnes, please? Can the prison system cope with an
:37:48. > :37:55.increase in mandatory and life sentences?
:37:55. > :38:01.These are the new sentences that Kenneth Clarke announced today for
:38:01. > :38:05.violent or sexual offenders on the one hand having mandatory life and
:38:05. > :38:09.on the other hand youths with knives getting a mandatory prison
:38:09. > :38:12.sentence. Can the system cope? It was Labour, of course, that
:38:12. > :38:15.introduced what are called indeterminate sentences where you
:38:15. > :38:20.just, as Ken Clarke was saying, stay there until you're given
:38:20. > :38:25.parole and he thought this was a tougher and better route. Is it in
:38:25. > :38:29.your view? It's not tough enough, in my view, and let me tell you why.
:38:29. > :38:33.What Labour did... Not tough enough it's less tough than what Labour
:38:33. > :38:40.done? It is less tough and I'll tell you why. If somebody had
:38:40. > :38:47.committed a very serious crime, I'm talking paedophiles, serious sexual
:38:47. > :38:52.assaults, murder, then you go to prison. It was our view that you
:38:52. > :38:55.should not be released from prison until you could prove to the Parole
:38:55. > :39:00.Board that you would no longer be a danger.
:39:00. > :39:05.And, you know, not very many people passed that test and so it concerns
:39:05. > :39:08.me that what Ken Clarke has said today, and actually he's had to be
:39:08. > :39:12.dragged kicking and screaming to this position, is taking away that
:39:13. > :39:20.check, so he's saying, if you commit a serious crime for the
:39:20. > :39:25.second time, then you will have a life sentence that.'s removing a
:39:25. > :39:30.very precautionary measure and a protection that we introduced. On
:39:30. > :39:36.knife crime, if I may go on to that - what David Cameron said during
:39:36. > :39:41.the election is that if you are found with a knife, you will go to
:39:41. > :39:46.prison. Today, that has changed to, if you are found threatening
:39:46. > :39:50.somebody with a knife and if you are between 16 and 18 or over 16
:39:50. > :39:56.years old, you would go to prison. So I'm interested also in what
:39:56. > :40:00.happens if you are 15, if you have been carrying a knife per say. If I
:40:00. > :40:05.could just make one final point. I'm quite concerned about the
:40:05. > :40:10.sounds that I'm getting from this Government on crime and law and
:40:10. > :40:13.order. 16,000 fewer police officers. They're going to scrap antisocial
:40:13. > :40:16.behaviour orders, they are making it harder to erect CCTV. This is
:40:16. > :40:21.not what people are telling me in my constituency. I don't believe
:40:21. > :40:25.it's where the British people are. Can the prison system cope was the
:40:25. > :40:28.question in increased sentences? You have to make the prison system
:40:28. > :40:32.cope because I don't think people want the Government interfering a
:40:32. > :40:36.lot in their lives. I think Governments have one responsibility
:40:36. > :40:41.to the people they represent to provide prosperity and to keep them
:40:41. > :40:44.safe and so I would be horrified actually if this was a cost-cutting
:40:44. > :40:48.measure tofuer people in prison. That would be a really terrible and
:40:48. > :40:52.very serious mistake. You think fewer people will be in prison as a
:40:52. > :40:58.result. Jo Swinson, do you agree with that? Will it lead to spewer
:40:58. > :41:04.people in prison? It's not clear, but it could lead to more -- fewer
:41:04. > :41:09.people. Ken Clarke presented what Labour did as a Spain on the
:41:09. > :41:12.justice system in Britain? Indefinite sentences are basically
:41:12. > :41:16.yes, locking people up potentially indefinitely and, I think the
:41:16. > :41:19.problem with that is it's been used in so many more cases than it was
:41:19. > :41:25.expected to be used when Labour introduced it. If fact, from the
:41:25. > :41:28.point of view of the victims and their families, that also creates a
:41:28. > :41:31.massive uncertainty. When I've spoke to victims of serious crime
:41:31. > :41:36.in my constituency, one important thing for them is to actually have
:41:36. > :41:39.some kind of understanding and idea of the the offender is going to be
:41:39. > :41:42.released, when they are going to be released and to know what is
:41:42. > :41:47.happening. This creates a huge amount of uncertainty. I think it's
:41:47. > :41:50.better to move to a situation where there's more certainty. I'm not
:41:50. > :41:53.convinced actually about the use of mandatory sentencing. That's not
:41:53. > :41:58.about saying that we are soft on crime. I think it's about saying
:41:58. > :42:01.that we politicians in the House of Commons aren't necessarily always
:42:01. > :42:04.best placed to decide what the sentence should be. We have a
:42:04. > :42:08.judicial system. That's why we call them judge, because they're there,
:42:08. > :42:13.they've listened to all of the facts, they understand the context
:42:13. > :42:16.and they, I believe, are best placed to decide. You know, there
:42:16. > :42:19.are always difficult cases and special circumstances and
:42:19. > :42:23.thankfully in these proposals, and it may be in the small print but I
:42:23. > :42:26.do understand that judges will still retain some discretion.
:42:26. > :42:29.it's not mandatory at all? understanding is that if there is
:42:29. > :42:34.an early guilty plea, a 16-year-old under certain circumstances, the
:42:34. > :42:38.judge may decide that actually, sending them to prison at a cost of
:42:38. > :42:41.something like �100,000 a year, where there's an 80% reoffending
:42:41. > :42:44.rate might not be the best thing for society and indeed for that
:42:44. > :42:48.individual. I would like to see us actually having a situation where
:42:48. > :42:51.if a 16-year-old is carrying a knife and acting in that way, that
:42:51. > :42:54.we get to a situation as soon as possible where they are not, where
:42:54. > :42:59.they can become a functioning member of society and sadly, I do
:42:59. > :43:04.not have great faith in our prison system for actually doing that.
:43:04. > :43:08.APPLAUSE The woman there in the third row
:43:08. > :43:11.from the back. As a victim of crime, I actually
:43:11. > :43:15.believe that the criminal should get the sentences that are handed
:43:15. > :43:17.out to them and actually we should be stronger on that. If we build
:43:17. > :43:22.more prisons, we'll create some employment opportunities and keep
:43:22. > :43:26.crime off the street. So when you hear the words "mandatory sentence"
:43:26. > :43:29.which is used by Ken Clarke on the one hand and then Jo saying that
:43:30. > :43:34.the judges will have the freedom to decide whether or not to impose,
:43:34. > :43:37.are you happy with that? No. I think our sentences are far too
:43:38. > :43:44.light actually and the criminals actually get off way too lightly
:43:44. > :43:49.and we should be harder in our society. Nigel Farage? I think
:43:49. > :43:52.agree with that. I must say, having studied this Government on crime
:43:52. > :43:55.and punishment, Ken Clarke's position is bizarre. On the one
:43:55. > :43:58.hand, he seems to be arguing that virtually nobody should be going to
:43:58. > :44:02.prison, now he's talking about mandatory sentences. I think this
:44:02. > :44:08.is because of the pressure that Theresa May has put on him. Theresa
:44:08. > :44:15.May does say some quite sensible things from time to time. Can't
:44:15. > :44:18.think where she gets her lines from. The question, can the prison system
:44:18. > :44:23.cope with this new mandatory sentencing, if indeed it's to
:44:23. > :44:27.happen at all, the answer is no. One thing that we just have not
:44:27. > :44:30.done is, we haven't recognised that the criminal base in this country
:44:30. > :44:34.has increased massively over the last few years. There are lots of
:44:34. > :44:38.reasons for it and it's very regrettable, but I think the
:44:38. > :44:41.British public are sick to the back teeth of every single week reading
:44:41. > :44:46.about people who've been given lengthy sentences, as the lady just
:44:46. > :44:51.said, have not served them and have then gone on to reoffend. And these
:44:51. > :44:55.are some of the worst crimes that we can possibly talk about. We have
:44:55. > :44:59.to recognise that that base is much bigger than it used to be and we
:44:59. > :45:03.need to embark upon a fairly substantial prison-building prom
:45:03. > :45:13.and we need to give people tough sentences and make sure they serve
:45:13. > :45:16.
:45:16. > :45:20.them. Let's have some deterrents in I'm not sure why this has come up
:45:20. > :45:24.recurrently. I don't think the prisons could actually accommodate
:45:24. > :45:27.more life sentences, so the next thing will be a deterrent, but if
:45:27. > :45:33.you look at America they have the death penalty and their crime rate
:45:33. > :45:39.is much higher than ours, so I can see no other way of that working,
:45:39. > :45:44.but what we really should look at is rehabilitation and also looking
:45:44. > :45:47.into - Some states in America have the penalty and some don't and I
:45:47. > :45:52.would agree, there is no evidence that it is much of a deerer rent,
:45:52. > :45:56.but what the Americans have done is to recognise that whilst
:45:56. > :46:00.rehabilitation for first-time offenders is vital, there is a
:46:00. > :46:05.certain amount of society who just cannot be cured and what they have
:46:05. > :46:10.done is to embark 25 years on an extensive prison-building programme
:46:10. > :46:13.and violent cuem in America has halved over the last -- crime in
:46:13. > :46:17.America has halved over the past 25 years. You are saying the criminal
:46:17. > :46:22.base has expanded hugely and you are saying there is a tiny
:46:22. > :46:27.proportion who you can't reach out to. No, there is no inconsistency
:46:27. > :46:32.there. To say that the solution to that problem, if you are taking the
:46:32. > :46:37.view, is to just build more prisons and lock more people up, that is an
:46:37. > :46:43.incredibly way of dealing with that. It doesn't help society. It does.
:46:43. > :46:48.It doesn't, because it ultimately doesn't help society. What we need
:46:48. > :46:55.to do is get people rehabilitated, as the lady says. You cannot
:46:55. > :46:59.rehabilitate all of the criminal classes. Wouldn't it be refreshing
:46:59. > :47:05.that all politicians actually say what they are going to do when they
:47:05. > :47:08.are in opposition and when get into power they do it, so we make
:47:08. > :47:12.manifestos legal and binding and then the panel would agree that it
:47:12. > :47:18.would encourage younger voters to start believing what politicians
:47:18. > :47:21.say and encourage voters to believe politics would become relevant
:47:21. > :47:25.again. There was an example David Cameron talking about knife crime
:47:25. > :47:29.in 2007 and you can go on quoting Labour saying thing in the --
:47:29. > :47:36.things in the last 13 years, and they don't action. They say one
:47:36. > :47:39.thing, get into power and say something else. I don't agree with
:47:39. > :47:44.Gloria about indefinite sentences, but I agree with everything else.
:47:44. > :47:49.There is a kind of pact between the people and the Government that they
:47:49. > :47:55.will be protected from crime. One of the arguments that doesn't wash
:47:55. > :48:00.at all is the cost. The 100,000. Governments waste money like water
:48:00. > :48:05.pouring over Niagra. Thing of the wars we don't want and the quangos.
:48:05. > :48:09.There are millions going out. We need to feel that the justice
:48:09. > :48:15.system is on our side. And that it is protecting us from criminals.
:48:15. > :48:20.The idea that you can argue the cost when so much is being spent on
:48:20. > :48:24.things we couldn't care less about, I can't wear that at all. The cost
:48:24. > :48:29.is not just financial - APPLAUSE
:48:29. > :48:31.It is also to society. Of lives being wasted that could be
:48:31. > :48:41.productive. The other part of the government must speak. Iain Duncan
:48:41. > :48:44.
:48:44. > :48:47.Smith. I must say, sometimes this debate seems to get polarised into
:48:47. > :48:50.either tough on criminals or soft on them and therefore you are wrong.
:48:50. > :48:54.The truth is if people really understood would we lock up in
:48:54. > :48:57.prison they would understand a huge amount of why we have got so many
:48:57. > :49:02.people in prison. The truth is most of them are men in prison and it's
:49:02. > :49:05.men mostly in prison, who are drug and alcohol abusers and the vast
:49:05. > :49:09.majority can't read or write properly. They can't apply for jobs.
:49:09. > :49:13.They are incapable of expressing themselves. They have mental health
:49:13. > :49:17.problems and they come from massively dysfunctional and broken
:49:17. > :49:20.homes and probably watched most of their mums or women in their lives
:49:20. > :49:25.being beaten up by violent men all through their life and they copy
:49:25. > :49:28.that from them. That is the group from which we draw our criminals
:49:28. > :49:33.and prisoners. Until we face up to to the fact that you will never
:49:33. > :49:37.arrest and lock up your way out of this problem, that the purpose of
:49:37. > :49:42.criminal justice is to stabilise the issue, but then we need to do
:49:42. > :49:45.more and the point what Ken is trying to do now is these sentences
:49:45. > :49:50.are about being fair and stabilising that problem, but now
:49:50. > :49:54.we have to attack the problem, right at the earliest stages, with
:49:54. > :49:57.far too many dysfunctional and broken homes breeding kids going
:49:58. > :50:01.into crime and it's violent. We have to tackle that. That has to
:50:01. > :50:07.start much earlier. We in Britain have not bothered with that at all.
:50:07. > :50:10.If you took 10% of those who go back into prison a second time, you
:50:10. > :50:15.would almost automatically release prison numbers and have much more
:50:15. > :50:18.spaces in Britain. -- prison. Yes, you have to be tough with violent
:50:19. > :50:22.and per petual offenders, but the truth is most of those in prison
:50:22. > :50:28.should have been dealt with at school, in their families, in their
:50:28. > :50:35.homes and until we face up to that, we will never solve this problem.
:50:35. > :50:39.APPLAUSE How long will that take? Which is
:50:39. > :50:44.an answer to a question other than the one that was asked. I would
:50:44. > :50:47.like to go back to that. Perhaps if the conditions in the prisons were
:50:47. > :50:50.slightly less enticing they wouldn't want to go back and some
:50:50. > :50:56.of the elderly patients in our hospitals I think feel they are
:50:56. > :50:59.serving a prison sentence. APPLAUSE
:50:59. > :51:03.Very briefly, Iain Duncan Smith, are the measures that Ken Clarke
:51:03. > :51:07.has announced going to lead to an increase in the prison population
:51:07. > :51:12.and to use the question, account prison system cope? The system will
:51:12. > :51:19.cope, because it has to and the reality of the sentences, firstly,
:51:19. > :51:23.the indeterminate. What do you mean by it has to cope? We have to
:51:23. > :51:26.protect the public. Are we going to build more prisons? Hold on. That
:51:26. > :51:29.is the number one priority to protect the public and
:51:29. > :51:32.indeterminate sentences were terrible, because it gave nothing
:51:32. > :51:36.to the prisoners. We know all that. Can the prisons expand? Yes, that
:51:36. > :51:42.is what the Government has to do, make sure that it allocates the
:51:42. > :51:46.resources to make sure that there are places. The reality is this is
:51:46. > :51:49.two-pronged. One, you have to deal with the violent criminals and
:51:49. > :51:53.punish them and what is given in the sentences, if a person is
:51:53. > :51:57.picked up who has done a violent attack and had a ten-year sentence
:51:57. > :52:01.before and subsequently does another one, then he is saying it's
:52:01. > :52:04.only because of the skill of the surgeons he wasn't done for murder,
:52:04. > :52:07.so now that person needs to do life. I think that is reasonable. That is
:52:07. > :52:11.about to getting to those who are violent, but you need to try to
:52:11. > :52:14.resolve the problem we have, which is we are on a line producing
:52:14. > :52:20.criminals from these dysfunctional and broken homes. That is the real
:52:20. > :52:26.issue. Thank you very much. We have five minutes or so left. Another
:52:26. > :52:30.question. This is from Sam Fox who a sixth form student. Now that
:52:30. > :52:34.university applications have fallen this year, is it still correct to
:52:34. > :52:39.have raised student tuition fees? The interesting figures show that
:52:39. > :52:43.university applications have dropped by 9% and it may be because
:52:43. > :52:46.of the fees. If you could all be brief on this, because of the time
:52:46. > :52:52.we have. Jo Swinson, you were one of those Liberal Democrats who said
:52:52. > :52:55.there wouldn't be any fees and as a Scottish MP, you voted for England
:52:55. > :53:00.to have fees, whereas Scotland, as we know, with the amount of money
:53:00. > :53:06.that comes from gnd, doesn't need to have them, -- England, doesn't
:53:06. > :53:11.need to have them. I can be succint. Not many issues there. Do you think
:53:11. > :53:14.it's correct still to flout the manifesto you stood on and continue
:53:14. > :53:17.to raise the fees? In an ideal world, this wouldn't be happening
:53:17. > :53:22.and if we had a Liberal Democrat government we would have been able
:53:22. > :53:25.to implement all of the manifesto. The voters spoke and said 650 MPs
:53:25. > :53:29.we'll give you 57, so that meant we weren't able to do everything we
:53:29. > :53:34.wanted to do. Plus, we are in a situation where there is a massive
:53:34. > :53:38.budget deficit and at the time of the election the deficit was 13%,
:53:38. > :53:42.which is was the same as Greece, so if we weren't going to take strong
:53:42. > :53:45.action there would be serious consequences. I do think we need to
:53:45. > :53:50.get across that people can go to university. I think there is still
:53:50. > :53:54.a job to be done here, because people won't be paying upfront and
:53:54. > :53:58.be paying until they graduating and earning more than �21,000 and they
:53:58. > :54:01.will be paying less per month than they do under the current system.
:54:01. > :54:04.It is a more progressive system. Under ideal circumstances it
:54:04. > :54:07.wouldn't be what we are doing, but in a very difficult set of
:54:07. > :54:11.circumstances and having to be in a coalition, we have made it as
:54:11. > :54:16.progressive as we can. Briefly, everybody, Julian Fellowes. I think
:54:16. > :54:19.our education system is in a bad way. I think we have devalued
:54:19. > :54:22.degrees at universities. I think we have a good education minister and
:54:23. > :54:25.good people from the left and right trying to help him and I hope he's
:54:26. > :54:29.successful, but if you are asking me do I find it surprising that
:54:29. > :54:33.people do not want to start their working life tens of thousands of
:54:33. > :54:43.pounds in debt, for a degree that no longer guarantees a job, no, I
:54:43. > :54:48.don't find it surprising. APPLAUSE
:54:48. > :54:52.Gloria De Piero. I was the first person in my family to go to
:54:52. > :54:56.university and it changed my life, so I don't want to give young
:54:56. > :55:02.people a downer. It changed my life. I would be really concerned if this
:55:03. > :55:06.9% drop are the people like me, who managed to change their lives by
:55:06. > :55:09.going. What Ed Miliband has said and it kind of relates to the point
:55:09. > :55:13.that the guy in the blue shirt med earlier about politicians and their
:55:13. > :55:16.promises and how you have to keep to them and he said he would be the
:55:16. > :55:19.first to underpromise and overdeliver. What we have said, we
:55:19. > :55:23.know that we can't promise everything, but we have said there
:55:23. > :55:25.will be a limit of �6,000 rather than nine. I know it's not perfect,
:55:26. > :55:31.but it's a step in the rye direction and I think it will help
:55:31. > :55:35.more people to get there. You Sir, there. I'm a student at sixth form
:55:35. > :55:41.college and I handed in my application a couple of weeks back.
:55:41. > :55:45.Everybody is taking a hit, why shouldn't the students also? Iain
:55:45. > :55:49.Duncan Smith, briefly? I think the gentleman there who has just spoken
:55:50. > :55:53.pretty much sums it up. The fact is we have a huge debt crisis. We have
:55:53. > :55:58.a real problem and we have to sort that out. The reality is that
:55:58. > :56:02.university does change your life. It does give you options. The
:56:02. > :56:07.reality here is that somehow you have to fund it. I think on balance,
:56:07. > :56:13.that this is a reasonable thing to do. You don't have upfront fees and
:56:13. > :56:17.you won't start paing back until �21,000. I know it's -- paying back
:56:17. > :56:22.until �21,000. I know it's difficult. We were in a difficult
:56:23. > :56:25.position and we have to resolve it. The woman there. With less people
:56:25. > :56:30.going to university, does it mean there will be higher unemployment
:56:30. > :56:36.and what will be done to get more people into jobs? It may well. Look,
:56:36. > :56:40.it's no surprise at all, is it, that we have got a situation now
:56:40. > :56:45.where through the 7% that go to the private and public schools, they
:56:45. > :56:48.are dominating public life in a way they have ethey haven't done for
:56:48. > :56:53.over 50 years and my worry about this drop in applications is that
:56:53. > :56:59.in many cases it will be the very bright people from poor families
:56:59. > :57:03.who they by cannot -- who think we cannot take on this risk and there
:57:03. > :57:07.is less as a result of the policies and education policies, in many,
:57:07. > :57:15.many cases, bright children from the poorest backgrounds will not
:57:15. > :57:18.achieve their very best. That is a big mistake. We can't afford to
:57:18. > :57:22.waste these brains. A couple of points from you up there and then
:57:22. > :57:26.you. Isn't it the case that the number of applications going to the
:57:26. > :57:30.top universities has gone up? People are making the decision if
:57:30. > :57:34.it's in their financial interest to go to university they'll pay the
:57:34. > :57:41.extra fees? Then the woman there. How will the Government ensure that
:57:41. > :57:46.�9,000 a year will mean a quality degree, rather than some of the
:57:46. > :57:50.standards today? You Sir. Do you think it's acceptable that English
:57:50. > :57:54.students have to pay �9,000, while in Scotland they get it for free?
:57:54. > :57:59.Quite. We come back to that another day. Thank you very much. We have
:57:59. > :58:04.to stop. Question Time next week, it's part of something called
:58:04. > :58:09.Parliament Week which is intended to create a better understanding of
:58:09. > :58:12.the democratic process. We are going to be actually broadcasting
:58:12. > :58:17.from inside the Palace of Westminster, where the state trials
:58:17. > :58:20.of everyone from Charles I to Guy Fawkes took place. Where President
:58:20. > :58:26.Obama and the current Pope both spoke. They are not going to be on
:58:26. > :58:30.the panel. In their footsteps will come the Home Secretary and Ed
:58:30. > :58:36.Balls and Shirley Williams and two others as yet unknown. The week
:58:36. > :58:46.after that, we'll be in Newcastle. If you want to join the audience,