0:00:01 > 0:00:04Just over 400 years ago, Guy Fawkes stood trial here in Westminster
0:00:04 > 0:00:09Hall, for trying to blow up Parliament. We have different ways
0:00:09 > 0:00:19of calling our leaders to account these days. Welcome to Question
0:00:19 > 0:00:22
0:00:22 > 0:00:27On our panel tonight, the Home Secretary, Theresa May, the Shadow
0:00:27 > 0:00:31Chancellor Ed Balls, from the House of Lords, the Liberal Democrat peer
0:00:31 > 0:00:36Shirley Williams, the Mail on Sunday columnist Peter Hitchens and
0:00:36 > 0:00:46poet and author who left school at 13 and is now a Professor of
0:00:46 > 0:00:49
0:00:49 > 0:00:54Creative writing at Brunel university Benjamin Zephaniah.
0:00:54 > 0:00:59Thanks. Our first question tonight from Geraldine hauxs please.
0:00:59 > 0:01:04Is it right for the public sector workers to strike when they've been
0:01:04 > 0:01:08offered a better deal? -- Geraldine Hawkes. We have seen at the very
0:01:08 > 0:01:11last moment after months of non- negotiation, the Government
0:01:11 > 0:01:14suddenly bring out a new offer and say that's take it or leave it,
0:01:14 > 0:01:18just at the last minute and I think the unions are right to say they
0:01:18 > 0:01:28want to look at the detail of this now. But I don't think it's the
0:01:28 > 0:01:31right way to do things. I would - there was a comment in The
0:01:31 > 0:01:35Telegraph today which said David Cameron is privately delighted that
0:01:35 > 0:01:39thedown-ons have rejected the deal, the view in Number Ten is that they
0:01:39 > 0:01:41have been craftily manoeuvred into a trap. I have to say, I don't
0:01:41 > 0:01:44think that's the right way to make decisions like this when you're
0:01:44 > 0:01:48talking about the long-term needs of the country. But also, low-paid
0:01:48 > 0:01:52people in the public sector, dinner ladies, nursing assistants who've
0:01:52 > 0:01:56worked hard for many years and deserve to be treated better than
0:01:56 > 0:01:59that. I think both sides should be round the table talking. The unions
0:01:59 > 0:02:02will have to give some ground, but the Government will have to give
0:02:02 > 0:02:09some more ground because at the moment what's being proposed isn't
0:02:09 > 0:02:13fair. This strike is entirely avoidable. When you say that,
0:02:13 > 0:02:17surely the Government's given ground, saying the offer is 8% more
0:02:17 > 0:02:23generous than what they had ten days ago which is the point? If you
0:02:23 > 0:02:26look at the details, it's only come out at the last minute, after many
0:02:26 > 0:02:31months of procrastination, finally some ground given. It's good the
0:02:31 > 0:02:36fooft's taken the negotiation seriously, but it's still the case
0:02:36 > 0:02:39that low-paid public sector workers are very hard hit by this. I was
0:02:39 > 0:02:43looking... -- the Government's taken the negotiation seriously.
0:02:43 > 0:02:49Would you like to see the strike called off now or is it not time
0:02:49 > 0:02:53for it to be called off, in your view. You know there's been a
0:02:53 > 0:02:55ballot by UNISON. I don't want a strike. Nobody wants it. Do you
0:02:56 > 0:02:59want it called off now as a result of what the Government has
0:02:59 > 0:03:05suggested? No, we do not need to have a strike but it requires both
0:03:05 > 0:03:09sides to give some ground. If you are a nurse, part-time nurse, on
0:03:09 > 0:03:13�17,000 a year, you are going to lose �900 a year as a result of
0:03:13 > 0:03:17this deal at the moment. That is deeply, deeply unfair. What
0:03:17 > 0:03:20happened was, the increase in contributions, which was sprung
0:03:20 > 0:03:26upon people before the Hutton Report hits the lowest paid workers,
0:03:26 > 0:03:30particularly women, hardest. It's not fair. Both sides must be given
0:03:30 > 0:03:34some ground. That's a way to avoid an unnecessarily strike. I think
0:03:34 > 0:03:37David Cameron wants a strike, that's the problem. Theresa May?
0:03:37 > 0:03:40The answer to the question is, no, I don't think it's right for them
0:03:41 > 0:03:44to strike. There have been negotiations now over several
0:03:44 > 0:03:47months about this pensions deal and the reality is that we are all
0:03:47 > 0:03:51living longer, that's good news, but that means people have to work
0:03:51 > 0:03:55longer and actually are being asked from the public sector to
0:03:55 > 0:03:59contribute more to their pensions. What I think is fair is ensuring
0:03:59 > 0:04:03that we have an arrangement for public sector pensions that gives
0:04:03 > 0:04:06public sector workers who work hard on our behalf but gives them a
0:04:06 > 0:04:10decent pension in their retirement, but also is a fair deal for the
0:04:10 > 0:04:15taxpayer. And the reality of the deal that's been struck is that yes,
0:04:15 > 0:04:20we have said that we will allow the pensions to accrue at a faster rate,
0:04:20 > 0:04:24meaning it will be a better deal, also for low and middle earners,
0:04:24 > 0:04:28many will find themselves receive ago larger pension than they would
0:04:28 > 0:04:32have done otherwise. As a result of paying more in? They will be paying
0:04:32 > 0:04:36more in. Then you expect to get more of a pension if you pay more
0:04:36 > 0:04:39in? Well, no, people will have to pay more in, they'll have to work
0:04:40 > 0:04:44longer as everybody else will. But crucially, these pensions, many of
0:04:44 > 0:04:49them, will be a lot better than people in the private sector.
0:04:49 > 0:04:54People remember, it's people in the private sector who've seen their
0:04:54 > 0:04:58pensions devastated. The taxpayers are paying for the public sector
0:04:59 > 0:05:02pensions. Baroness Williams? Theresa May is right about this. If
0:05:02 > 0:05:07you look at the expectation of life, which has gone up by eight years in
0:05:07 > 0:05:12the last 20 years, it's quite staggering how much longer we all
0:05:12 > 0:05:17live. That has to be paid for. If you want decent pensions for people
0:05:17 > 0:05:23living into their 80s, you have to accept that those current pensions
0:05:23 > 0:05:27will have to accept retiring later and possibly paying rather more
0:05:27 > 0:05:31towards their pension -- current pensioners. My feeling is that the
0:05:31 > 0:05:34Government, maybe at the last minute, as Ed suggests, came up
0:05:34 > 0:05:39with a very decent proposal which benefitted the lowest paid, the
0:05:39 > 0:05:46very nurses and teachers and so on that we are concerned about. If you
0:05:46 > 0:05:51retire on �38,000 as a teacher, you get �25,000 in a pension, a hell of
0:05:51 > 0:05:55a lot better than the private sector. The unions should say, we
0:05:55 > 0:06:00have to make a sacrifice. Even has to do that. It isn't to extreme,
0:06:01 > 0:06:06we'll accept it. APPLAUSE
0:06:06 > 0:06:09The man in the fourth row from the back on the gangway? You, Sir?
0:06:09 > 0:06:14a teacher and everyone's talking about fairness. Initially, the
0:06:14 > 0:06:17Government talked about the pensions being unaffordable. When
0:06:17 > 0:06:21that argument fell flat, they talk about fairness now. What's fair is
0:06:22 > 0:06:26the fact that eight years ago when I came into the proprofession, the
0:06:26 > 0:06:30Government promised me a deal and said if you work until you're 60,
0:06:30 > 0:06:34or now 65, they would guarantee me that retirement age. What you are
0:06:34 > 0:06:38doing now because I'm not within this golden ten year that the new
0:06:38 > 0:06:43deal is, it's not an improved deal for me, I've effectively lost eight
0:06:44 > 0:06:48years of my retirement and that's if by the time I reach 67 or 68 it
0:06:49 > 0:06:54hasn't upped again. Is that foyer on me not to honour what you
0:06:54 > 0:07:01promised me eight years ago? Peter Hitchens? The problem that you face
0:07:01 > 0:07:04is a similar thing to what other people face in the private or
0:07:04 > 0:07:07public sector. People face broken promises because we simply can't
0:07:07 > 0:07:11afford to pay the levels of pensions which we expected to be
0:07:11 > 0:07:14able to do. The real point about this is, if you go on strike and
0:07:14 > 0:07:17you are in the public sector, who are you striking against? You are
0:07:17 > 0:07:21striking against the public. Governments have no money, the
0:07:21 > 0:07:25money that you are requiring for your pension will come from the
0:07:25 > 0:07:30public. You can look at it in two ways, one you are disrupting
0:07:30 > 0:07:33services you provide for them, the other is saying, give me your money
0:07:33 > 0:07:38or I'll carry on misbehaving. That's not a moral way to behave.
0:07:38 > 0:07:41That is the case. So many people... We all sympathise with your problem,
0:07:41 > 0:07:45who could not, but so many people have no pensions at all to look
0:07:45 > 0:07:48forward to in the private sector and so many others have suffered
0:07:48 > 0:07:53grave losses worse than yours, you can't go do them and say, I've got
0:07:53 > 0:07:59to be special, you've got to pay for mine, it's just wrong.
0:07:59 > 0:08:02OK. Benjamin Zephaniah? I think when workers go on strike, they are
0:08:02 > 0:08:06making a sacrifice, they don't strike because it's fun or because
0:08:06 > 0:08:09they want to simply go on strike. I don't know the details of the
0:08:09 > 0:08:14negotiations that are going on, but if the Government comes to a point
0:08:14 > 0:08:19where it says take it or leave it, that is wrong. I'm going to answer
0:08:19 > 0:08:23the question very simply. Should they strike - yes they should. In a
0:08:23 > 0:08:26time when people feel their rights have been taken a I way from them,
0:08:26 > 0:08:30that ways of expressing themselves have been taken away from them, the
0:08:30 > 0:08:33right to withdraw your labour is probably the only real right
0:08:33 > 0:08:38workers have now and they have the right to strike.
0:08:38 > 0:08:43APPLAUSE Let me hear from some members of
0:08:43 > 0:08:46the panel with their comments. The woman in the fourth row, please?
0:08:46 > 0:08:50I think it's a shame this issue has come up in relation to pensions
0:08:50 > 0:08:55just now because I look at this a bit broader in that it's about how
0:08:55 > 0:08:58we view our Public Services and the people that work in them. I do
0:08:58 > 0:09:03think that there is a difference between the public and private
0:09:03 > 0:09:07sector in the fact that there are lower wages and also about what
0:09:07 > 0:09:13that gives to... What those people are giving to us as citizens and we
0:09:13 > 0:09:17need to recognise that in some way. Even though it's a special case
0:09:17 > 0:09:23unlike the private sector? Do you think they're a special case?
0:09:23 > 0:09:30I do actually, but wshedn't divide people in that way in terms of who
0:09:30 > 0:09:36is working where -- werbgdn't divide people. -- we shouldn't
0:09:36 > 0:09:39divide people. The man on the left? I wonder if
0:09:39 > 0:09:42the Members of Parliament on the panel could tell us what's
0:09:42 > 0:09:48happening to their pensions as public sector pensions themselves.
0:09:48 > 0:09:55I wonder if they know. Contributions are going up. It's
0:09:55 > 0:10:01been frozen as much as anybody else's. Ed Balls, you are looking a
0:10:01 > 0:10:07bit... There's a discussion happening between MPs and the IPSA
0:10:07 > 0:10:13authorities and they'll naught. chance of a strike, I suppose?
0:10:13 > 0:10:16such luck! It might be very popular, yes. The point is though, MPs on
0:10:16 > 0:10:20higher salaries get bigger pensions and we need to accept that we need
0:10:20 > 0:10:24to pay more and work longer to get our pensions. Theish you here is
0:10:24 > 0:10:29the lowest paid workers of the UK being asked to take huge cuts in
0:10:29 > 0:10:32their pensions, no MPs will get cuts, so why should that happen to
0:10:32 > 0:10:37nurses... Sorry, I must interrupt for a moment. That's not really
0:10:37 > 0:10:41fair. I agree that the Government was late many making the last offer,
0:10:41 > 0:10:46but the last offer clearly was directed towards the lowest paid
0:10:46 > 0:10:51public workers and gave nurses and teachers and others with an under
0:10:51 > 0:10:56�30,000 or �40,000 income a substantially better deal than
0:10:56 > 0:10:59before. You are saying that is right? Of course it is. I want to
0:10:59 > 0:11:04address Zephaniah though because Zephaniah is calling for a strike.
0:11:04 > 0:11:09I'm not calling for one, I'm just saying they have to right to strike.
0:11:09 > 0:11:13This particular case, to be honest, it's a strike of the better paid
0:11:13 > 0:11:19and the better pensioned against the less well pension because
0:11:19 > 0:11:23there's clearly the Government's made a clear bias towards the
0:11:23 > 0:11:29lowest paid pensions. The woman up there?
0:11:29 > 0:11:36So, some of the panel, are you saying that the lowly paid private
0:11:36 > 0:11:41sector worker should continue to subsidise the public sector worker?
0:11:41 > 0:11:44Ed Balls? That's a separate issue. Public sector workers and private
0:11:44 > 0:11:48sector workers will have to work longer and make bigger
0:11:48 > 0:11:52contributions to get their pensions. But nurses and teachers are not the
0:11:52 > 0:11:57lowest paid. If you look under �15,000, I checked today with the
0:11:57 > 0:12:01House of Commons library, a pre- nurse qualified, a nursing
0:12:01 > 0:12:07Assistant will see their pension cut by �500 a year and they're
0:12:07 > 0:12:10paying not just more VAT but extra contributions. But the woman there
0:12:10 > 0:12:14is talking not about that I don't think, make the point again?
0:12:14 > 0:12:19Earlier, you said about the lowest paid public sector worker which
0:12:19 > 0:12:22fine, I appreciate that. But what I'm saying, and I agree with
0:12:22 > 0:12:26Shirley and the others that, you know, the public sector has been
0:12:26 > 0:12:31asking and demanding for the private sector worker to continue
0:12:31 > 0:12:37to subsidise their pension at a time when the private sector worker
0:12:37 > 0:12:43can barely make their own ends meet, let alone make their own ends meet.
0:12:43 > 0:12:50The lowly paid worker, whether a bus driver or window cleaner and so
0:12:50 > 0:12:57forth can barely make their own ends meet yet they're expected to
0:12:57 > 0:13:02continue to subsidise the pensions. You are against the strike? Yes, I
0:13:03 > 0:13:07am. Have the unions "given up" on Ed Miliband and the Labour Party
0:13:07 > 0:13:11about pension reform. Why do you say that? Because the union leader
0:13:11 > 0:13:14said she'd given up about her pension reform. I don't understand
0:13:15 > 0:13:20you, that Labour aren't fighting hard enough? Yes, actually, yes.
0:13:20 > 0:13:23And you Sir, over here? I think it's rich that the Home Secretary
0:13:23 > 0:13:27thinks that people going on strike is wrong when she's dealing with a
0:13:27 > 0:13:32group of work,, police officers, who're not allowed to strike. When
0:13:32 > 0:13:39she came into office, she didn't realise that we paid 11% into our
0:13:39 > 0:13:42pension. They are now asking us to pay another 3.1%. How Mr Peter
0:13:42 > 0:13:45Hitchens can sit there and criticise people for withdrawing
0:13:45 > 0:13:50their labour when it's the last resort. When you go on strike, you
0:13:50 > 0:13:54don't get paid, it's a last resort. I take it you are a police officer?
0:13:54 > 0:13:58Yes. What happens to you if you strike? We can't strike. Theresa
0:13:58 > 0:14:00May, answer that, please, then another question. It's absolutely
0:14:01 > 0:14:03right that police officers aren't allowed to strike and they were
0:14:03 > 0:14:08making higher contributions to their pensions than most people in
0:14:09 > 0:14:12the rest of the public sector. 11%. And they were get ago more
0:14:12 > 0:14:15significant benefit out of their pension than other workers in the
0:14:15 > 0:14:17This is BBC News. The headlines at public sector. We are paying an
0:14:17 > 0:14:20extra 3.1%. Everybody in the public 11pm: Turmoil in Greece. George
0:14:20 > 0:14:22Papandreou faces a confidence vote sector is being asked to make
0:14:22 > 0:14:25tomorrow after a day of political increased contributions. It's being
0:14:25 > 0:14:33confusion and calls for his staggered, so to make it easier for
0:14:33 > 0:14:38resignation. Inside the Greek parliament tonight still no sign of
0:14:38 > 0:14:41certainty for the Greek Prime Minister.
0:14:41 > 0:14:45We want a deal that is fair to those in the public sector but fair
0:14:45 > 0:14:47World leaders meet in Cannes. to taxpayers as well. Public sector
0:14:47 > 0:14:49Three of Pakistan top cricketers pensions are being paid by the
0:14:49 > 0:14:51are jailed for their role in taxpayer. People in public sector
0:14:51 > 0:14:54cheating at Lord's last year. will continue to retire on
0:14:54 > 0:14:57guaranteed benefit pensions which are not available to the vast
0:14:57 > 0:15:07majority of people in the private A mass strike planned for British
0:15:07 > 0:15:11
0:15:11 > 0:15:17I would ask all panellists to be help workers.
0:15:17 > 0:15:24A very good evening. After a day of endless twists and turns police
0:15:24 > 0:15:26could be moving towards a new Luke Hilton Pierce, please. Does
0:15:26 > 0:15:28Coalition government -- Greece. the UK need special laws in place
0:15:28 > 0:15:30That is according to the Prime to stop protesters setting up
0:15:30 > 0:15:31Minister. George Papandreou will seemingly permanent residents in
0:15:31 > 0:15:35start talks with the opposition important public areas like St
0:15:35 > 0:15:40tomorrow. He also faces a vote of Paul's, or Parliament Square?
0:15:40 > 0:15:41Hitchens, do we need laws to stop confidence tomorrow. For the latest
0:15:41 > 0:15:44this? We already have laws to stop from Athens, our correspondent,
0:15:44 > 0:15:48this if anybody wants to use them. The problem is that the Church of
0:15:48 > 0:15:50Matty price. At the Greek parliament tonight
0:15:50 > 0:15:51England... Why are they not being they're waiting and watching,
0:15:51 > 0:15:54used? Because the Church of England fearful of where the country is
0:15:54 > 0:15:55does not want to use them. And now I think the Corporation of London
0:15:55 > 0:15:58says it does not want to use them heading.
0:15:58 > 0:16:02Inside the Prime Minister is against people outside St Paul's.
0:16:02 > 0:16:06That is their right. The last thing we need are any more laws. We have
0:16:06 > 0:16:10millions of laws and each government that comes in thinks it
0:16:10 > 0:16:14can solve the problems by making more. It is a question of whether
0:16:14 > 0:16:18we enforce them. Are you saying that we think these people ought to
0:16:18 > 0:16:22be compelled to move off the land in front of St Paul's Cathedral?
0:16:22 > 0:16:26There were protesters in Parliament Square for almost 10 years now.
0:16:27 > 0:16:30There are going to the protesters outside St Paul's for hundreds of
0:16:30 > 0:16:34years because they are anti- capitalist protesters. Do you
0:16:34 > 0:16:39object to that question mark I object to anti-capitalist
0:16:39 > 0:16:45protesters. It is protesting over something that is seemingly never
0:16:46 > 0:16:49going to change. Seemingly, it is protest for protest's sake. How can
0:16:50 > 0:16:54you say that? These people represent a lot of people in this
0:16:54 > 0:17:04country who are sick of the way that capitalism is going. They are
0:17:04 > 0:17:12
0:17:12 > 0:17:16absolutely sick of it. There are people all over the world rising up
0:17:16 > 0:17:20against their role is in different ways, and these people have said
0:17:20 > 0:17:26that they are sick of political corruption, sick of politicians
0:17:26 > 0:17:30doing favours for big business. Even if you want capitalism, why
0:17:30 > 0:17:36can't we create a new capitalism that puts people first? When banks
0:17:36 > 0:17:40have problems, we recapitalise the banks. Why do we not recapitalise
0:17:40 > 0:17:46people? We do not care about people. So these people have gone out there.
0:17:46 > 0:17:51They are desperate. I saw a slogan saying, where would Jesus be? Of
0:17:51 > 0:17:55course, Jesus would be up there with the protesters. How do you
0:17:55 > 0:17:59know that? Regardless of how religious you are, you can read
0:17:59 > 0:18:06writers around the Bible who have said that Jesus walked among the
0:18:06 > 0:18:09poor. And not only would Jesus be out there. You know you have the
0:18:09 > 0:18:12Archbishop of Canterbury saying that he shows support and
0:18:12 > 0:18:15understand the feelings of these people. In my humble opinion, the
0:18:15 > 0:18:18Archbishop of Canterbury should be out there, too. The Church should
0:18:18 > 0:18:22be out there because that is the work of the Church, defending the
0:18:22 > 0:18:30poor against big business and big institutions, so they should be
0:18:30 > 0:18:33demonstrating. In response to the question, which referred to the
0:18:33 > 0:18:36protesters outside St Paul's and Parliament Square, we have now
0:18:36 > 0:18:42passed further legislation which will make it easier to deal with
0:18:42 > 0:18:46the protesters in Parliament Square. Easier to deal with, that is a
0:18:46 > 0:18:52politician's expression. Dock that mean they will not be there in six
0:18:52 > 0:18:56months when it is past? -- does it mean they will not be there? There
0:18:56 > 0:18:59will be extra powers for the Greater London Authority and they
0:18:59 > 0:19:03will be working with the police to decide what to do. Would you like
0:19:03 > 0:19:09to see the protesters go, and the protesters outside St Paul's?
0:19:09 > 0:19:14Personally, yes, I would like to see them go. Why? I would like to
0:19:14 > 0:19:18see them go because I think St Paul's is an important site. What
0:19:18 > 0:19:22we are looking at is an image of the UK and it is important that
0:19:22 > 0:19:26people coming to the UK are able to visit sites like that and they are
0:19:26 > 0:19:30able to carry on operating. But the point is, are there are issues
0:19:30 > 0:19:34about what we need to do in terms of how capitalism operates? I was
0:19:34 > 0:19:39very interested. These are anti- capitalist protesters but we have
0:19:39 > 0:19:45seen them drinking Starbucks coffee and using Apple Mac computers. But
0:19:45 > 0:19:51we do need to rebalance our economy. You think you cannot be an anti-
0:19:51 > 0:19:56capitalist campaigner and have a cup of coffee? I think you can be
0:19:56 > 0:20:00an anti-capitalist campaign and have a cup of coffee. But why is
0:20:00 > 0:20:05Starbucks there and why are Apple computers available, it is because
0:20:05 > 0:20:07of capitalism. I think we do need to rebalance our economy between
0:20:07 > 0:20:10financial services and manufacturing, look at issues
0:20:10 > 0:20:13around banks and corporate governance, but they do not think
0:20:13 > 0:20:20these are issues that are being raised by protesters outside St
0:20:20 > 0:20:23Paul's. It's come back to the St Paul's camp. In light of David
0:20:23 > 0:20:26Cameron's comments last week and what Theresa May has said, do we
0:20:26 > 0:20:33have a Government that cares more about tourism revenues them the
0:20:33 > 0:20:37right to protest? One good way of getting them to
0:20:37 > 0:20:42move on would be to address their concerns. Perhaps someone could
0:20:42 > 0:20:49drive the Robin Hood tax that the Archbishop suggested. Far they
0:20:49 > 0:20:53could try the robin and tax. It is not about Starbucks or Apple
0:20:53 > 0:21:00Mac computers, it is about unregulated casino bankers who have
0:21:00 > 0:21:05taken risks with taxpayers' money for so long. The second row from
0:21:05 > 0:21:09the back. With any protest, there are some people were there for
0:21:09 > 0:21:11protest's sake, I think these people have a genuine message, or
0:21:11 > 0:21:16the I do not think being at St Paul's is doing anything for the
0:21:16 > 0:21:20cause. I do not understand why they chose that in the first place.
0:21:20 > 0:21:23did not want to get beaten up by the police, so they went there. The
0:21:23 > 0:21:29idea of the police coming to St Paul's and beating them up would
0:21:29 > 0:21:34not look very good in Syria, would it? Exactly what is happening in
0:21:34 > 0:21:37Oakland, California. The question was, do we need special laws to
0:21:37 > 0:21:41stop people setting up permanent residence in St Paul's and
0:21:41 > 0:21:45Westminster? The laws are there but it is good that the Church is
0:21:45 > 0:21:49discussing with the protesters how to do this in a negotiated and
0:21:49 > 0:21:52peaceful way. I am sure that is what the Home Secretary should be
0:21:52 > 0:21:55doing about the protesters in Parliament Square. But this is
0:21:55 > 0:21:58getting simplistic. In the last hundred years, there is no doubt
0:21:58 > 0:22:02society is better off and we have made progress through our economic
0:22:02 > 0:22:07system, a capitalist economic system. There is no doubt about
0:22:07 > 0:22:13that, and alternative systems have failed. But there are different
0:22:13 > 0:22:17kinds of capitalism. There might be people representing my constituency
0:22:17 > 0:22:20in Yorkshire outside St Paul's, but there are also many who feel that
0:22:20 > 0:22:23they work hard and the rules of the game do not work in the interests
0:22:23 > 0:22:27of them and their children. They are not anti- Starbucks, but they
0:22:27 > 0:22:33say, why did we have a global financial crisis, why did we not
0:22:34 > 0:22:38have more investment in skills, investment in our economy? And why
0:22:38 > 0:22:43didn't the Labour Party do it? politicians, we cannot dismiss this
0:22:43 > 0:22:46as a bunch of middle class coffee drinkers. These are real concerns
0:22:46 > 0:22:49in communities up and down the country and politics has to rise to
0:22:49 > 0:22:53a better level and say we are going to make the system work in a more
0:22:53 > 0:23:01fair and long-term way for the future. If we cannot do that, how
0:23:01 > 0:23:08can we expect respect for our democracy from young people. So you
0:23:08 > 0:23:12support the protesters outside St Paul's? Either you do or you do not.
0:23:12 > 0:23:15I support the right to protest in our country. I do not know the
0:23:15 > 0:23:20protesters and there will be many different points of view. But the
0:23:20 > 0:23:23idea that if you say you are going to protest you are anti-capitalist,
0:23:23 > 0:23:28and tea Starbucks and not legitimate, what a load of nonsense.
0:23:28 > 0:23:31People have real concerns. If the Government want to make a
0:23:31 > 0:23:36difference, they should repeat the bank bonus tax and use a Tikrit
0:23:36 > 0:23:40100,000 jobs for young people. That would be to address the issues.
0:23:40 > 0:23:49Bank levy we have introduced will raise more money each year than the
0:23:49 > 0:23:52bonus tax the Labour Party had. Shirley Williams. I think it is a
0:23:52 > 0:23:56very serious message from the protesters. I think the fact that
0:23:57 > 0:24:01we are such an unequal country that the top 10% get 31% of the income
0:24:01 > 0:24:04and the bottom 10% get 1.3%, and that is nothing to do with politics
0:24:04 > 0:24:09because it happen under Labour and the Conservative Party and around
0:24:09 > 0:24:13the world, I think it is really serious. People are angry as hell
0:24:13 > 0:24:16about the degree of inequality and I think the gentleman who is said
0:24:16 > 0:24:20that are above all what people resent is the feeling that their
0:24:20 > 0:24:29money has gone into saving the banks and yet the banks seem to be
0:24:29 > 0:24:32able to push out bonuses to on huge sums of money at a time when the
0:24:32 > 0:24:40banks have been saved by the taxpayer, that makes people
0:24:40 > 0:24:47absolutely furious. We can have different arguments that the best
0:24:47 > 0:24:51way to deal with it but I want to just say that the people sitting in
0:24:51 > 0:24:54tents in St Paul's, I hope they will agree to go in the end because
0:24:54 > 0:24:58it is just bankrupting St Paul's at the moment, rather than where they
0:24:58 > 0:25:02wanted to be, the London Stock Exchange, where they could not ever
0:25:02 > 0:25:06get. But they are saying something we ought to listen to, as are the
0:25:06 > 0:25:10people, don't forget Parliament Square began with a protest about
0:25:10 > 0:25:16the invasion of Iraq and Britain's involvement in it. So it is a way
0:25:16 > 0:25:20of watching all the time public anger and fury with what they think
0:25:20 > 0:25:27is happening without fairness to the general board of the British
0:25:27 > 0:25:32people. The man in the blue shirt. There is a slight difference
0:25:32 > 0:25:37between the people who are outside here and Parliament Square, who
0:25:37 > 0:25:42have been there for 10 years, and their gripe was against Iraq and
0:25:42 > 0:25:45the Afghanistan war. The people at St Paul's, rather than gun as the
0:25:45 > 0:25:50gentleman down the end said, speaking for all of us, half of
0:25:50 > 0:25:55them go home every night and they are not in their tents. Half of the
0:25:56 > 0:26:01tents are empty. If they represent the people, why
0:26:01 > 0:26:05did they not stand for Parliament to make change the democratic way?
0:26:05 > 0:26:08Because they see this little game going on about taxing them a bit
0:26:08 > 0:26:18more, and the Labour Party not doing anything when they were in
0:26:18 > 0:26:20power, and then the Tories coming in, and they see no change. Can ask
0:26:20 > 0:26:23why an entirely self-appointed group of people who decide to
0:26:23 > 0:26:28clutter up a beautiful public space in the heart of our capital should
0:26:28 > 0:26:32be treated with such exaggerated respect? I went down day yesterday
0:26:32 > 0:26:36afternoon and talk to a lot of them. They have nothing interesting to
0:26:36 > 0:26:39say about economics. They know nothing about it. They have nothing
0:26:39 > 0:26:45interesting to say about anything. They are simply a bunch of
0:26:45 > 0:26:49protesters who are against poverty, war and injustice. Who is not? All
0:26:49 > 0:26:54this stuff about what would Jesus 2, Jesus had nothing to do with
0:26:54 > 0:26:58politics and specifically rejected it. My kingdom is not of this world.
0:26:58 > 0:27:02These people should not be treated as if they deserve exaggerated
0:27:02 > 0:27:12respect. It is time they went home. They are making a mess and they are
0:27:12 > 0:27:17
0:27:17 > 0:27:24actually rather silly. I am going to move on. Sarkozy said today, if
0:27:24 > 0:27:28the euro explodes, so does Europe. Was he right? The French President
0:27:28 > 0:27:31said, if the euro explodes, so does Europe. It centres on what is going
0:27:31 > 0:27:38on in Greece and probably even tomorrow we will not know what is
0:27:38 > 0:27:42happening in Greece, or maybe even for a few weeks. Shirley Williams?
0:27:42 > 0:27:44Not necessarily, but there is no doubt it would do a great deal of
0:27:44 > 0:27:48damage to the morale of the European Union. They are not the
0:27:48 > 0:27:54same thing, but nevertheless the point is well taken. Let me be
0:27:54 > 0:27:57quick about it. I think George Papandreou, a courageous Prime
0:27:57 > 0:28:01Minister in Greece, called for a referendum at first because he
0:28:01 > 0:28:05wanted see whether the Greek people would actually vote in favour of
0:28:05 > 0:28:09the desperately tough measures that are being taken, the way people
0:28:10 > 0:28:19here did in fact vote to some extent for accepting austerity
0:28:20 > 0:28:21
0:28:21 > 0:28:28measures. When they voted a minority Tory party into office?
0:28:28 > 0:28:34they voted Lib Dem they were voting against it. Earth did they vote
0:28:34 > 0:28:37against Labour, or in favour of Tory? Let me get back to what you
0:28:37 > 0:28:42were saying. The crucial point is that the eurozone was created out
0:28:42 > 0:28:46of a lot of optimism which was misjudged. They brought in people
0:28:46 > 0:28:50like Greece and Portugal, which were extremely poor, and tried to
0:28:50 > 0:28:55blend them into a single currency zone with countries like Germany
0:28:55 > 0:28:59and the Netherlands and the other countries around which were
0:28:59 > 0:29:03powerful countries with strong, good economies. I think it was a
0:29:03 > 0:29:09mistake. I think it was led to some extent by an illusion. But I also
0:29:09 > 0:29:12think that the idea that if the eurozone falls apart we should hope
0:29:12 > 0:29:16that European Union would fall apart would be a huge mistake for
0:29:16 > 0:29:22this country. You think the eurozone might fall apart if Greece
0:29:22 > 0:29:28falls out? The eurozone, not the European Union. So everybody would
0:29:28 > 0:29:32go back to their own currency? some members of the eurozone would
0:29:32 > 0:29:36fall out, starting with Greece. Essentially, the question is
0:29:36 > 0:29:42whether it would be followed by Italy, in which case you would have
0:29:42 > 0:29:47eight non-Mediterranean zone. One last point which I want to make
0:29:47 > 0:29:51strongly. I think it is crucial that in Italy the people of Italy
0:29:51 > 0:29:56decide that their president should go and that they should actually
0:29:56 > 0:30:06start making some serious provision for the situation of debt. You are
0:30:06 > 0:30:10
0:30:10 > 0:30:14calling for Berlusconi's I always thought it was
0:30:14 > 0:30:17Parliamentary etiquette that you didn't call for heads of state in
0:30:17 > 0:30:21other countries. Some gentlemen don't deserve etiquette.
0:30:21 > 0:30:25Theresa May, this is a fairly explosive statement that Europe
0:30:25 > 0:30:30will explode if the eurozone explodes. Do you believe it? Or was
0:30:30 > 0:30:36he saying it for the sake of effect? I'm not sure I do agree
0:30:36 > 0:30:40that the if the eurozone explodes then the whole European union would
0:30:40 > 0:30:44cease to exist. It's important we remember how significant it is for
0:30:44 > 0:30:50us and our economy that the eurozone doesn't explode, that what
0:30:50 > 0:30:57we need to see happening is this issue being brought to conclusions
0:30:57 > 0:31:00in the sense of something being done. Last week, the agreement
0:31:00 > 0:31:03bought a degree of stability, the market showed positive reaction to
0:31:03 > 0:31:07it. Obviously, what's been happening in the last couple of
0:31:07 > 0:31:11days has brought back a degree of uncertainty and instability. What
0:31:11 > 0:31:17we do need to see happening is Europe to reinforce the bail out
0:31:17 > 0:31:22fund, the firewall, we need to recapitalise banks, we need to see
0:31:22 > 0:31:27the Greek debt crisis resolved. blunt terms, are we threatened here
0:31:27 > 0:31:30in Britain by what's going on in Greece? Oh, what's happening in the
0:31:30 > 0:31:34eurozone economy is actually impacting on our economy, yes.
0:31:34 > 0:31:37Fortunately, because of decisions that we have taken as a Government
0:31:37 > 0:31:41to bring stability into our economy, the decisions we have taken to
0:31:41 > 0:31:45ensure that we are going to deal with the deficit that was left by
0:31:45 > 0:31:48the last Government, and that has involved taking some tough
0:31:48 > 0:31:51decisions, we have put our economy in a better position, but there is
0:31:51 > 0:31:57no doubt that economies around the world are affected by what's
0:31:57 > 0:32:03happening in the eurozone. Ed Balls, can I restate the
0:32:03 > 0:32:07question. Nicolas Sarkozy said if the euro explodes, so does Europe.
0:32:07 > 0:32:11Hyperbole? Ffrpblgts Europe explodes, it would be an absolute
0:32:11 > 0:32:13and total catastrophe for Europe, Britain and the world. It's
0:32:13 > 0:32:18absolutely essential that it doesn't happen. Leaders have to
0:32:18 > 0:32:21rise to the challenge and make sure it doesn't happen. I, as a pro-
0:32:21 > 0:32:25European, have always been very cautious and sceptical about the
0:32:25 > 0:32:28euro, precisely because it was such a risky venture. That's why Britain
0:32:28 > 0:32:32didn't join. However, now it's there, they've got to sort it out.
0:32:32 > 0:32:36The idea that the leaders are sitting in Cannes watching what's
0:32:36 > 0:32:40happening in Athens, as if that is the biggest event, that isn't the
0:32:40 > 0:32:44big event. The big event is what will happen potentially in Italy,
0:32:44 > 0:32:48in Spain, and we need some leadership. First of all to say
0:32:48 > 0:32:51you've got to have the financial clout, the detail to to stand
0:32:51 > 0:32:55behind these big powerful systemic countries on the other hand is not
0:32:55 > 0:33:00there. Despite the promises of last week, there is no deal which can be
0:33:00 > 0:33:05fit for purpose. Secondly, people have got to realise in Greece, in
0:33:05 > 0:33:09Portugal, in Italy, in other countries too, simply ploughing on,
0:33:09 > 0:33:13saying cut more, raise more taxes, have higher unemployment, austerity
0:33:13 > 0:33:17will solve the problem, is not solving the problem if Greece, the
0:33:17 > 0:33:21deficit is getting wore, the debts are getting worse, the policy is
0:33:21 > 0:33:25getting worse, we lived through this in the REM0 years ago when
0:33:25 > 0:33:29people said stay the course, stick with it, throw more money at it, it
0:33:29 > 0:33:31was an unmitigated catastrophe and leaders have to show leadership.
0:33:32 > 0:33:37That includes our Prime Minister and Chancellor. At the moment, we
0:33:37 > 0:33:44are on a very, very dangerous road indeed. If Greece falls out...
0:33:44 > 0:33:48APPLAUSE If Greece falls out, is that the
0:33:48 > 0:33:51euro exploding, as Sarkozy put it? No. So you could wear Greece going?
0:33:52 > 0:33:54The thing about Greece is that it's a small country with high debts
0:33:55 > 0:33:58which had no real access to financial markets and it's
0:33:58 > 0:34:03supported by Governments telling the Greek people to do things which
0:34:03 > 0:34:08aren't working. However, Italy and Spain, massive countries, huge
0:34:08 > 0:34:12exposure to banks, a real question mark politically, but also is the
0:34:12 > 0:34:15European Central Bank going to be a Central Bank? We are being told by
0:34:15 > 0:34:18the Prime Minister the IMF may need to step in to solve it. The
0:34:18 > 0:34:22eurozone should step in and solve the problem. They've got to accept
0:34:22 > 0:34:26the reality of the monetary union, the mutual obligation, the need for
0:34:26 > 0:34:31financial fire power, all of this procrastination is unbelievably
0:34:32 > 0:34:35dangerous for Europe and the world. Unbelievably dangerous. Let me hear
0:34:35 > 0:34:41from the audience, then I'll come to the two other members of the
0:34:41 > 0:34:46panel. You with the blue shirt and the red 250. Mr Doze koz said it
0:34:46 > 0:34:50was a mistake to let Greece enter the euro -- Mr Sarkozy. It's a
0:34:50 > 0:34:55problem of their own making. The British Government shouldn't be
0:34:55 > 0:35:02worried about it at all. You Sir, here? I'm worried that the nature
0:35:02 > 0:35:06of the bail out doesn't fix the issue of solvency, it only solves
0:35:06 > 0:35:11liquidity and I'm concerned that's pushing the problem down the track
0:35:11 > 0:35:15The problem is two fold. Firstly, there's nothing within the eurozone
0:35:15 > 0:35:19treaty to allow any member to exit. Secondly, more importantly, when
0:35:20 > 0:35:26you look at the amount of tain the last austerity measures put on to
0:35:26 > 0:35:30the Greek nation, then essentially it's similar to what was imposed on
0:35:30 > 0:35:34Germany after the First World War with the treaty. Do you mind if
0:35:34 > 0:35:39Greece falls out of the eurozone or not? Personally it doesn't concern
0:35:39 > 0:35:43me but it concerns me about... it affect us? Of course. Well then
0:35:43 > 0:35:46it must concern you? The exit doesn't concern me, the nature of
0:35:46 > 0:35:52the exit. Stkpwh right. The woman with the green scarf? Would it be
0:35:52 > 0:36:01less damaging for Greece to leave the eurozone now than to lurch from
0:36:01 > 0:36:10one bail out to another? Peter Hitchens? It needs to be sorted out
0:36:10 > 0:36:12soon. Huge amountss of money be being hurled on to a bonfire at the
0:36:12 > 0:36:16moment. Ed Balls was quite right to recall the exchange rate mechanism
0:36:16 > 0:36:21which we were told by all our leaders we had to stay in over and
0:36:21 > 0:36:25over and over again, and again, we tossed hospitals and warships and
0:36:25 > 0:36:31schools into the sea, billions and billions and billions of pounds
0:36:31 > 0:36:34trying to keep our status in the REM, then when we left it, we
0:36:34 > 0:36:38embarrassed on probably the most prosperous economic period of our
0:36:38 > 0:36:42recent history. I think the euro, and those of us, like me, who
0:36:42 > 0:36:46opposed it on principle from the beginning were derided by much of
0:36:46 > 0:36:50conventional politics as xenophobes and little Englanders and worse
0:36:51 > 0:36:55words than that for saying it. Also said from the start, this is a
0:36:55 > 0:36:58crazy project, the economical equivalent of making water Flo up
0:36:58 > 0:37:01hill, building the roof of the house before you've built the walls,
0:37:01 > 0:37:05it was never going to work. The question now is how they are going
0:37:05 > 0:37:08to get out of it doing the least damage. My suspicion is, as with
0:37:08 > 0:37:13the ERM, the sooner they begin to think seriously about getting out
0:37:13 > 0:37:17of it, the better for all of us. that Greece you are talking about?
0:37:17 > 0:37:20Or collapsing the whole system? Greek people having austerity
0:37:20 > 0:37:23measures imposed on them will make no difference to the state of the
0:37:23 > 0:37:28country which seems to be collective punishment. You can see
0:37:28 > 0:37:31the frustration and despair that the perfectly honest,
0:37:31 > 0:37:36straightforward hard-working people in Greece are undergoing at the
0:37:36 > 0:37:39moment. I can't see any advantage in that. To sit here and say let it
0:37:39 > 0:37:42get out and fall out seems to be irresponsible because of the
0:37:42 > 0:37:47disastrous consequences that might follow in the banking industry if
0:37:47 > 0:37:50it fell out. I think those in charge should stop clinging
0:37:51 > 0:37:53dogmatically and ideologically to their belief that preConservativing
0:37:53 > 0:37:58this crazy Single Currency project is the most important thing for
0:37:58 > 0:38:03Europe to be doing. It was a mistake. Reversing out of it doing
0:38:03 > 0:38:07the least possible damage is what has to be done. The woman with the
0:38:07 > 0:38:13spectacles. I would like to know how the Greeks are expected to work
0:38:13 > 0:38:19their way out of the problem? In nine years' time, they will still
0:38:19 > 0:38:24owe 120% of GDP. Where is the light at the end of the tunnel for those
0:38:24 > 0:38:27people? Benjamin Zephaniah? It's interesting the talk about this
0:38:27 > 0:38:31subject. The gentleman was the only person that talked about the people
0:38:31 > 0:38:36of Greece. The people of Greece have been - sorry to talk about the
0:38:36 > 0:38:41people again - they've been on the streets protesting for month after
0:38:41 > 0:38:49month lately and now their leader says or suggests there may be a
0:38:49 > 0:38:55referendum, it's actually too late. Will the project collapse - I don't
0:38:55 > 0:39:01think it will. Greece got in because it cooked the books. And
0:39:01 > 0:39:06Portugal probably the same. And Italy, our friend there, probably
0:39:06 > 0:39:10the same. So they got in on false pretences anyway. If you believe in
0:39:10 > 0:39:13the European project, which I don't, you've got to play the game, you've
0:39:14 > 0:39:17got to play by the rules and they didn't in the first place so I
0:39:17 > 0:39:20think the euro, lots of things have happened to the euro, but the
0:39:20 > 0:39:24European project I think why not let a country leave if they want to
0:39:24 > 0:39:27leave or have to leave? It's important to say, our Prime
0:39:27 > 0:39:30Minister and Chancellor have been saying to Greece for the last year-
0:39:30 > 0:39:33and-a-half, you should raise more taxes, raise VAT and cut spending
0:39:33 > 0:39:37like we are doing in Britain, because it will work for you.
0:39:37 > 0:39:42What's happened in Britain, our economy's flatlined for a year,
0:39:42 > 0:39:46unemployment is rising, austerity, I'm afraid, Theresa May, is leading
0:39:46 > 0:39:50to slow growth in Britain. We shouldn't lecture other people to
0:39:50 > 0:39:55do what's not working in Britain and we should put our own house in
0:39:55 > 0:39:59order. Theresa May? And we all know what
0:39:59 > 0:40:03your answer to that is, Ed, your answer is that actually we should
0:40:03 > 0:40:06go and do more borrowing, even more, because you seem to think that the
0:40:06 > 0:40:10way to get out of having a debt on your credit card is taking out
0:40:10 > 0:40:13another loan and we all know that's not the way to do things. If we
0:40:13 > 0:40:16follow what you are suggestling, what would happen is the markets
0:40:16 > 0:40:20would turn against us, interest rates would go up, it would be
0:40:20 > 0:40:25costly for businesses and even will be paying more on their mortgages
0:40:25 > 0:40:28that.'s the impact of what you are proposing. That is economic
0:40:28 > 0:40:32incoherence. The idea you can talk about a country in that way - we
0:40:32 > 0:40:37were told a year ago if we cut faster than every other country
0:40:37 > 0:40:42we'd grow strongly and the economy would create more jobs. The
0:40:42 > 0:40:49economy's flatlined, we've grown slowly than other European
0:40:49 > 0:40:59countries. Has the private sector created jobs? Unemployment is
0:40:59 > 0:40:59
0:41:00 > 0:41:06falling and -- rising and employment is slowing. It's time
0:41:06 > 0:41:09for a Plan B. As a fellow supporter of the
0:41:09 > 0:41:14Government along with Theresa May, Baroness Williams? The dilemma is
0:41:14 > 0:41:17we have an Italy paying nearly 7% interest rate, we are paying 5%
0:41:17 > 0:41:21below that, and of course, what happens is, if you cannot persuade
0:41:21 > 0:41:25the markets of what you are doing, you are punished very hard indeed.
0:41:25 > 0:41:29Italy is being punished beyond its capacity to respond. I'll take a
0:41:29 > 0:41:34couple more points from the audience. You in the front please?
0:41:34 > 0:41:37Just a comment, if you would, not a question. I guess I feel that the
0:41:37 > 0:41:41economies of the countries in Europe around the world are much
0:41:41 > 0:41:44too reliant on the markets. You mentioned that if we were to change
0:41:44 > 0:41:49our austerity measures, then we would not be supported by the
0:41:49 > 0:41:53markets. What's happened in Greece has made the markets go crazy,
0:41:53 > 0:42:00maybe this is something the protesters outside St Paul's are
0:42:00 > 0:42:02saying, but maybe wshedn't be so reliant on the markets -- we
0:42:02 > 0:42:05shouldn't. Sarkozy said there shouldn't be a referendum in Greece.
0:42:05 > 0:42:09It would have been the moral authority to the Government to
0:42:09 > 0:42:12enact those austerity measures. This strikes me as anti-democratic
0:42:12 > 0:42:19on the part of Sarkozy and the others who said the same thing.
0:42:19 > 0:42:25OK. You Sir at the very back? just want to correct Shadow
0:42:25 > 0:42:31Chancellor, the economy is not flatlining, it recently grew by
0:42:31 > 0:42:350.6%. Reduce your hands at PMQs because it's really annoying.
0:42:35 > 0:42:41on. Our camera didn't catch you doing the gesture, perhaps you
0:42:41 > 0:42:47would do it again? He does that at PMQs. I'm afraid over the last year,
0:42:47 > 0:42:51the economy's barely grown at all. His point is it's gone up 5%?
0:42:51 > 0:42:55bit, down a bit, across the year, basically flat, that's why
0:42:55 > 0:43:01unemployment's rising and borrowing is going up too. It's not working.
0:43:01 > 0:43:05It's still growing, that's the point. There's a light at the end
0:43:05 > 0:43:10of the tunnel. Why wront you welcome the growth there has been?
0:43:10 > 0:43:16Your Plan B would involve more bow rowing yuend can't borrow your way
0:43:16 > 0:43:21out of a debt crisis -- -- more borrowing and you can't borrow your
0:43:21 > 0:43:24way out of a debt crisis. We are here in Westminster Hall in
0:43:24 > 0:43:30Parliament. It's interesting. A specialised question from Anthony
0:43:30 > 0:43:35Ryan, please? In a democracy, should members of the Royal Family
0:43:35 > 0:43:39be allowed a veto? This was the revelation this week that Prince
0:43:39 > 0:43:46Charles has been invited to comment and can complain and object and
0:43:46 > 0:43:52have removed items from 17 Bills since 2005 where they apply to his
0:43:52 > 0:43:55private concerns and private company. Theresa May? Is it right
0:43:55 > 0:43:58that Prince Charles should have legislation handed to him with a
0:43:58 > 0:44:04letter like this saying would you like to comment, I need your
0:44:04 > 0:44:07agreement? I need your consent? Are we a democracy, or is Prince
0:44:07 > 0:44:11Charles separate? We are a democracy and the decisions, final
0:44:11 > 0:44:14decisions are taken by elected representatives, ministers and
0:44:14 > 0:44:17Members of Parliament through the debates that take place. I think
0:44:17 > 0:44:21it's been well-known for a number of years that Prince Charles does
0:44:21 > 0:44:26make his views known to people. Sorry, you say that laws are made
0:44:26 > 0:44:29by Parliament, but here you are, I write to formally request the
0:44:29 > 0:44:32consent of His Royal Highness to provisions in the Government's
0:44:32 > 0:44:37prosed local democracy, economic development and construction Bill.
0:44:37 > 0:44:47There are 17 of these, you must have followed this story, you are
0:44:47 > 0:44:47
0:44:47 > 0:44:51I am not responsible for letters from Prince Charles. This is not a
0:44:51 > 0:44:56letter from Prince Charles. He is allowed to strike out legislation
0:44:56 > 0:44:59in his role as Prince of Wales. Do you think that is right? I think it
0:44:59 > 0:45:03is right that final decisions are taken by elected representatives.
0:45:03 > 0:45:08On planning issues, there are statutory console tease, who have
0:45:08 > 0:45:12an opportunity to put forward views on any proposals taking place. What
0:45:12 > 0:45:16matters is that at the end of the day the decisions are brought to
0:45:16 > 0:45:21Parliament and are taken by Parliament. It was Baroness Andrews
0:45:21 > 0:45:25who wrote this letter. You must know this story. What do you think
0:45:25 > 0:45:31of the constitutional propriety of it? The truth is I don't know
0:45:31 > 0:45:34anything about the story. should, shouldn't you? About a
0:45:34 > 0:45:40junior minister in the communities to palm and writing about a
0:45:40 > 0:45:44planning issue to Prince Charles. No, a lead story in two national
0:45:44 > 0:45:49papers saying they had written to Prince Charles to seek consent to
0:45:49 > 0:45:51introduce legislation. I do not know the details but I will answer
0:45:51 > 0:45:55the question which is, do I think Prince Charles should have the
0:45:55 > 0:45:59right to veto legislation about his planning issues, tax issues, many
0:46:00 > 0:46:03issues, absolutely not. We have a democracy in which we have a
0:46:03 > 0:46:06monarch and beacons of the monarch on budgets and tax matters but in
0:46:06 > 0:46:11the end, should they have a right to veto, of course not. That does
0:46:12 > 0:46:16not mean you cannot politely ask people. I think if the minister had
0:46:16 > 0:46:19written and said, Prince Charles, take it or leave it on our deal, he
0:46:19 > 0:46:24might have thought that was rather confrontational. Maybe the previous
0:46:24 > 0:46:30Labour government was going about things in a better way. Benjamin
0:46:30 > 0:46:37Zephaniah. This goes to the heart of our democracy. Our royal family,
0:46:37 > 0:46:42this royal family, should not meddle in politics. We are told we
0:46:42 > 0:46:45elect our politicians and they do the business of running the country
0:46:45 > 0:46:51and that the royal family stay out of it. I think Prince Charles
0:46:51 > 0:46:57should have nothing to do with vetoing. It is obviously true that
0:46:57 > 0:47:01he has been doing this. He should be told off, told not to do it. A
0:47:02 > 0:47:05long time ago, there is an island called Diego Garcia, and British
0:47:05 > 0:47:11citizens were moved off that Ireland for an American base to
0:47:11 > 0:47:16come on. In the British courts, the people of Garcia won the right to
0:47:16 > 0:47:21return. And because of some antiquated law, some rule, people
0:47:21 > 0:47:28went into a room with the Queen and they stood up and the Queen just
0:47:28 > 0:47:32overrode the decision of the court. When we say we have a democracy in
0:47:32 > 0:47:35this country, this is why a lot of people are angry. We vote every
0:47:35 > 0:47:39four or five years but when we go on the street and get angry about
0:47:40 > 0:47:44things, people say we are being anti-democratic, messing up the
0:47:44 > 0:47:47streets. Really, we are not being democratic if politicians make
0:47:47 > 0:47:53decisions and members of the royal family can veto them. That is not
0:47:53 > 0:47:56democracy. The issue of Prince Charles and the Duchy of Cornwall
0:47:56 > 0:48:02is a technical one and hugely exaggerated by republican
0:48:02 > 0:48:11newspapers which ate the monarchy anyway. Thank heaven, we are not a
0:48:11 > 0:48:15democracy in this country. Repeat that. Thank heaven, we are not a
0:48:16 > 0:48:19democracy in this country. The politicians hit the -- sit at the
0:48:19 > 0:48:23head of parties relying entirely on dodgy billionaires and state
0:48:23 > 0:48:25support to keep themselves going, they are themselves immensely
0:48:25 > 0:48:32incompetent and inexperienced. They have brought us nothing but
0:48:32 > 0:48:42disaster, mass immigration, and controlled crime. I could do a
0:48:42 > 0:48:43
0:48:43 > 0:48:47better job than you any day of the week. Why should we be so glad to
0:48:47 > 0:48:51be run by these people who have no experience of anything, no nothing
0:48:51 > 0:48:54and make a mess of everything they do? The crisis at the moment is
0:48:54 > 0:48:58caused by democratically-elected politicians, allegedly. Why should
0:48:58 > 0:49:03we not be glad that somewhere there are restraints on them? I think
0:49:03 > 0:49:06there should be more. I think the democratically-elected politicians
0:49:06 > 0:49:13have messed up, but are you seriously saying the country should
0:49:13 > 0:49:17be run by the monarchy? No, but this is a constitutional monarchy,
0:49:17 > 0:49:22the best form of government known to man if it is properly run. Is it
0:49:22 > 0:49:30is run by the dead political parties we have at the moment, it
0:49:30 > 0:49:37needs restraints on what they do. Let's call for a lovely general
0:49:37 > 0:49:40like it Idi Amin or Gaddafi. That would be a great alternative!
0:49:40 > 0:49:46Straightforwardly, Prince Charles should be free to express his view
0:49:46 > 0:49:52but should be not be free to have a veto. Which he has at the moment?
0:49:52 > 0:49:58If that is right. Let's go to another question. We have 10
0:49:58 > 0:50:05minutes left. A question from Simon Marshall. Do fathers have the right
0:50:05 > 0:50:11to equal access to their children once they divorce? This is because
0:50:11 > 0:50:15of a report which has just come out which says that legislation, no
0:50:15 > 0:50:19legislation should be introduced that allows a parental right to
0:50:19 > 0:50:25shared or equal time for both parents. It was a question about
0:50:25 > 0:50:29the role of the fathers when families split up. The report said
0:50:29 > 0:50:35that there should be no legislation creating a risk of a perception
0:50:35 > 0:50:40there is a parental right. Benjamin Zephaniah. I am not sure I
0:50:40 > 0:50:45understand this. So the father does not have the right... Statutory
0:50:45 > 0:50:53right, equal with the mother. cannot keep telling fathers to have
0:50:53 > 0:50:58equal responsibility and not give them equal rights. Theresa May,
0:50:58 > 0:51:02will this be adopted by Government? I cannot say whether we will adopt
0:51:02 > 0:51:10that particular part of the proposals. This is a report that
0:51:10 > 0:51:13was commissioned by the last Government. By you? This has caused
0:51:13 > 0:51:17concern for Members of Parliament across the house in all parties for
0:51:17 > 0:51:22some time. There are some issues in there that I know we will be
0:51:22 > 0:51:26wanting to take on, things like the speeding up the care process. But
0:51:26 > 0:51:29one of the things that I have been concerned about for some time, and
0:51:29 > 0:51:35when I spoke for the party and family policy in opposition I very
0:51:35 > 0:51:40much thought that there should be a legal presumption of shared
0:51:40 > 0:51:44parenting. I think there should be more emphasis on mediation. Because
0:51:44 > 0:51:48what happens when couples split up and children are involved, sadly we
0:51:48 > 0:51:52see bitter disputes going through the courts. It is an adversarial
0:51:52 > 0:51:57system. I do not think it does the best for any body and certainly not
0:51:57 > 0:52:01for the children involved. Sir mediation up front. There has been
0:52:01 > 0:52:06good work in parts of the United States and Australia about shared
0:52:06 > 0:52:08parenting plans. I wanted to ask, what would happen, a lot of the
0:52:08 > 0:52:13times when mothers move to different countries with their
0:52:13 > 0:52:17children, what would you propose to make sure fathers also get a chance
0:52:17 > 0:52:22for custody if the child is in a different country? Ed Balls, you
0:52:22 > 0:52:28called for this in your capacity as Children's Secretary. What do you
0:52:28 > 0:52:32make of this particular clause in the review? This is a complex legal
0:52:32 > 0:52:37matter and I am not a lawyer. I commissioned the report precisely
0:52:37 > 0:52:42because I was worried about issues around access of fathers and
0:52:42 > 0:52:47grandparents. In the interim report, he said he wanted to look at the
0:52:47 > 0:52:50issue of having a legal right for fathers. And then he went and
0:52:50 > 0:52:54studied some of the international experience, in particular the
0:52:54 > 0:52:57Australian experience where this was done five or six years ago, and
0:52:57 > 0:53:02the result of establishing the legal right was a huge increase in
0:53:02 > 0:53:05the number of child custody cases which moved from mediation into
0:53:05 > 0:53:09long, protracted court battles, making it more likely, as I
0:53:09 > 0:53:13understand it, that you would end up with legal battles, which are
0:53:14 > 0:53:17damaging for children, rather than being sorted out through mediation.
0:53:17 > 0:53:20When the Home Secretary says she wants mediation, I think the review
0:53:20 > 0:53:25is saying that is why you should make sure you change the culture of
0:53:25 > 0:53:28the courts and the way in which the process operates. If you simply go
0:53:28 > 0:53:32for changing the legislation, you move away from mediation and back
0:53:32 > 0:53:36to children being badly damaged in Court processes. It is a complex
0:53:36 > 0:53:40area but we do not want kids dragged through long court battles,
0:53:40 > 0:53:44so I think that is why he has made the recommendation he has.
0:53:44 > 0:53:49should not be about the sex of the parent comet should be about the
0:53:49 > 0:53:56content of the character. But there is this issue about fathers finding
0:53:56 > 0:54:00it more difficult to have access. There definitely should be a move
0:54:00 > 0:54:04towards more mediation, but if you're making it harder for a court
0:54:04 > 0:54:07case to come into power, sometimes children need that. Sometimes
0:54:07 > 0:54:14mediation is out of the question and one of the parents is abusive,
0:54:14 > 0:54:18not able to look after a child. The powers-that-be seem to fall
0:54:18 > 0:54:23over themselves to apply human rights and equality to different
0:54:23 > 0:54:29sections of society, but why can't they give divorced fathers the same
0:54:29 > 0:54:32courtesy? Peter Hitchens. Of course fathers ought to have the freedom
0:54:32 > 0:54:37to see their children but in practice it will not work out that
0:54:38 > 0:54:41way. There is a huge mass of case law since the 1969 divorce law
0:54:41 > 0:54:44reform which makes it harder and harder for fathers both to have
0:54:44 > 0:54:49custody of the children and indeed to have any say in the disposition
0:54:49 > 0:54:52of the property of the broken marriage. The real question here is
0:54:52 > 0:54:55not in the arrangements you make after the divorce but in the fact
0:54:55 > 0:55:00that we have a disastrous divorce law. Another part of this report
0:55:00 > 0:55:04speaks of making it possible to begin a divorce now on the internet.
0:55:04 > 0:55:09Divorce in this country is far too easy. It is easier to break up a
0:55:09 > 0:55:13marriage than it is to get out of a car leasing agreement. This was an
0:55:13 > 0:55:16arrangement made in the 1960s when we thought it would be a tremendous
0:55:16 > 0:55:21liberation for adults trapped in unhappy marriages. It may well have
0:55:21 > 0:55:24been such a thing, but the problem is that people who paid the price
0:55:24 > 0:55:29of that were the now millions of children who have been the victims
0:55:29 > 0:55:33of their parents divorcing. It does not matter what sort of
0:55:33 > 0:55:37arrangements you make for custody or Child Support or anything else,
0:55:37 > 0:55:41every time a marriage breaks up, the children suffer. It is time we
0:55:41 > 0:55:44re-examine the divorce reforms of the 1960s and realise that at the
0:55:44 > 0:55:49very least the divorce law should distinguish between parents with
0:55:49 > 0:55:53children and parents who do not have any. It has been immensely
0:55:54 > 0:56:00crawl and disastrous for children. Great for selfish adults, not so
0:56:00 > 0:56:04good for children. Shirley Williams, briefly. I think it is right for
0:56:04 > 0:56:09the report to say the primary issue should be the welfare of the child.
0:56:09 > 0:56:13I think we are selfish in many ways in seeing children as secondary to
0:56:13 > 0:56:18the interests of adults. In that sense, I have some sympathy with
0:56:18 > 0:56:21what Peter has said. I think we have to face up to the fact that
0:56:21 > 0:56:25UNICEF and other people find that British children are among the most
0:56:25 > 0:56:30unhappy in the Western world and we have to address that. We should
0:56:30 > 0:56:36address that. In that respect, Theresa May and Ed Balls are right
0:56:36 > 0:56:41to say this is an attempt to get it right. We just have time, since you
0:56:41 > 0:56:46mention happiness, for one more question. What do you think is the
0:56:46 > 0:56:49essential ingredient of GWB, general wellbeing? This is the
0:56:49 > 0:56:55Government proposal through the Office for National Statistics to
0:56:55 > 0:56:59measure wellbeing as alongside gross national product and the rest
0:56:59 > 0:57:03of it. What do you think is the essential ingredient? I will just
0:57:03 > 0:57:08go round the panel. One of the things, are you satisfied with life,
0:57:08 > 0:57:11with your husband, do you trust Parliament? Benjamin Zephaniah,
0:57:11 > 0:57:18what would it be for you? Are you happy with your personal income,
0:57:19 > 0:57:24perhaps? What makes me happy his breathing. That may sound crazy but
0:57:24 > 0:57:30I wake up in the morning, I am happy I am alive. And I do not
0:57:30 > 0:57:33expect too much from this life. am tempted to stop there, but thank
0:57:33 > 0:57:37you. Theresa May, what do you think is the essential ingredient of
0:57:37 > 0:57:42general wellbeing, leaving aside whether it is sensible for the
0:57:42 > 0:57:45taxpayer to be paying for the investigation? The trouble is that
0:57:45 > 0:57:49with something like this you are always going to get a raft of
0:57:49 > 0:57:56things because for any individual it is something different. For you?
0:57:56 > 0:58:03Power? For me, I think it is actually a good solid relationship
0:58:04 > 0:58:08with somebody else. Ed Balls. do not say that, I will be in
0:58:08 > 0:58:10trouble! For me, it is easily seeing our children growing up and
0:58:10 > 0:58:15flourishing and our obligation is to make sure the world is fit and
0:58:15 > 0:58:19proper and fit for purpose for them for the future. Undoubtedly, seeing
0:58:19 > 0:58:22your kids grow up and develop his most fabulous thing in the world.
0:58:22 > 0:58:32They have three months to decide these questions, so everybody can
0:58:32 > 0:58:32
0:58:33 > 0:58:36contribute. Has Prince Charles been consulted? Shirley Williams.
0:58:36 > 0:58:44best things in life are free - family relationships, friends and
0:58:44 > 0:58:51the countryside. Faith in God. is not down here either. I did not
0:58:51 > 0:58:56think it would be. The BBC do not believe in God. It is not the BBC!
0:58:56 > 0:59:06This is not the BBC! Have a care, Peter Hitchens. This is the Office
0:59:06 > 0:59:08
0:59:08 > 0:59:12for National Statistics. Which may I am sorry, we have to stop. This
0:59:12 > 0:59:15has been the first edition of Question Time from inside the house
0:59:15 > 0:59:20of parliament in the splendid setting of Westminster Hall. Next
0:59:20 > 0:59:24week, we will be in the Northern Stage in Newcastle and a week after
0:59:24 > 0:59:34in Aberystwyth, Wales will stop if you would like to come to either of
0:59:34 > 0:59:37those, call the number. Or you can go to the website and apply. It is
0:59:37 > 0:59:40great to have people to these programmes who plays such a lively