:00:12. > :00:21.We have got some questions to be answered, so let's get started.
:00:21. > :00:26.Welcome to Question Time. On our panel, the housing minister, Grant
:00:26. > :00:29.Shapps, the Shadow immigration minister, Chris Bryant, Elin Jones,
:00:29. > :00:34.from Plaid Cymru and hoping to win the current leadership election in
:00:34. > :00:38.Wales. The economics commentator, now head of an Oxford college, Will
:00:38. > :00:48.Hutton and the chairman of the National Trust and columnist, Simon
:00:48. > :00:57.
:00:57. > :01:05.Francesca Lonie has our first question. How would you help the
:01:05. > :01:09.one million 16 to 24-year-olds now unemployed? Chris Bryant? I would
:01:09. > :01:13.make sure there was a job for them and I think the best way of doing
:01:13. > :01:17.that is what we have been advocating for some time, which is
:01:17. > :01:24.we think there should be a personal tax on bankers' bonuses to bring in
:01:24. > :01:32.an extra �2 billion to pay for the building of -- creating another
:01:32. > :01:35.200,000 jobs for young people. We believe there would be a national
:01:35. > :01:39.insurance holiday and that would be a good idea to take on new people
:01:39. > :01:44.in business, because we need to get growth in the economy. It must be
:01:44. > :01:49.one of the most shaming things for our country, that we have - not
:01:49. > :01:52.just that we have one million young people unemployed, but 260,000 of
:01:52. > :01:56.them have been unemployed for more than a year and the number
:01:56. > :02:00.unemployed for more than six months has ridden by 83% in the last six
:02:00. > :02:04.months. That is just shocking. I really worry for a young generation
:02:04. > :02:08.of people who are never going to have a chance to stand - start off
:02:08. > :02:13.on the ladder in life and are going to be laden down with vast amounts
:02:13. > :02:18.of debt. How quickly would your plans work, do you think? If we
:02:18. > :02:22.were able to start the � did billion tax on bonuses we would be
:02:22. > :02:26.able to get back into the kind of territory where we were when we
:02:26. > :02:30.left power, which is we were - we had a Future Jobs Fund, which was
:02:30. > :02:40.specifically about making sure that no young person went past the six-
:02:40. > :02:44.month period without having a job. Trn Grant Shapps. Firstly, it's
:02:44. > :02:47.obviously incredibly tough out there for anyone who is prapg
:02:47. > :02:53.leaving university, where the numbers have gone up and that is
:02:53. > :02:57.not an easy place to be in an economy which is not growing as
:02:57. > :03:01.quickly as everyone would like. We all know about the effect from the
:03:01. > :03:03.eurozone and the rest. To put the figures in perspective, it is
:03:04. > :03:07.important to understand this is not something which has happened
:03:07. > :03:12.overnight, not even since the beginning of the recession, but has
:03:12. > :03:16.been rising since 2004. It's a long-term trend and also. You have
:03:16. > :03:20.had plenty of time to think about it. Indeed, we haveious launched
:03:20. > :03:23.the biggest-ever work programme since the 1920's, which aims to try
:03:23. > :03:27.to tackle this. To answer some of the questions of what to do about
:03:28. > :03:31.it, this work programme is twice the size, taking in twice as many
:03:31. > :03:36.people as the fund that Chris was talking about. That is one of the
:03:36. > :03:41.answers. Also, to put the figures into perspective, about 300,000 of
:03:41. > :03:44.the people who are on that list at the moment, they are full-time
:03:44. > :03:48.students, so this isn't necessarily everyone searching for a job at one
:03:48. > :03:52.time. There isn't one solution, but the work programme does good things
:03:52. > :03:57.like pays by results. If someone has got into a job, that's when the
:03:57. > :04:02.person who is looking and helping them get into that job is paid. If
:04:02. > :04:04.they stay for two years, they get a much bigger payment. You don't end
:04:05. > :04:08.up in one of the systems where go into a work experience programme,
:04:08. > :04:18.fall out of it again, go in again. This has to be proper employment
:04:18. > :04:22.
:04:22. > :04:27.when that works. Will Hutton? has been going on since 2004 -- or
:04:28. > :04:31.this has been going on since 2004 and I think this is symptomatic
:04:31. > :04:38.about something which is really profound and what it tells us is
:04:38. > :04:44.that the private sector is not hiring young people and the public
:04:44. > :04:47.sector's losing them because of the cuts and the declared necessity to
:04:47. > :04:52.cut the deficit and what it spells out is that in many parts of the
:04:52. > :04:56.country there is literally no opportunity for our young people.
:04:56. > :05:03.The work programme is dependent upon contractors finding private
:05:03. > :05:07.sector employers, who are prepared to take people on. Is it true that
:05:07. > :05:15.employers, as is reported, want foreign workers not British workers
:05:15. > :05:19.if they have a choice? Well, - There is is exacerbates the
:05:19. > :05:22.problem? Wales is interesting, it has shown the biggest increase in
:05:22. > :05:32.this period in youth unemployment and people without education or
:05:32. > :05:33.
:05:33. > :05:38.training. You also have the slowest growth of immigration into your
:05:38. > :05:42.country, so there isn't a one-to- one Lynn yar relationship of that
:05:42. > :05:46.type. You -- linear relationship of that type. You can't say that
:05:46. > :05:49.foreigners are crowding out the work in Wales. What you can say is
:05:49. > :05:56.that it's very difficult to move around Wales. It's very difficult
:05:56. > :06:01.if you are a young person here to get work in Cardiff or to get work
:06:02. > :06:11.elsewhere in England or Scotland. Getting a house or a flat is close
:06:12. > :06:11.
:06:12. > :06:17.to impossible. What about we are - what about all over the United
:06:17. > :06:21.Kingdom? Of course. I must say it's time for some ambition, real
:06:21. > :06:24.ambition. You talk about national insurance contributions and a
:06:24. > :06:33.holiday. Let's abolish contributions for all people under
:06:33. > :06:37.APPLAUSE Let's have a housing programme that
:06:37. > :06:41.actually permits young people in this country to move from where
:06:41. > :06:45.there is no work to where there is work. It's in the there. Let's have
:06:45. > :06:49.some attempt to get the private sector off its back, otherwise
:06:49. > :06:54.we'll have one million people and more under 24 out of work for many
:06:54. > :06:58.more years. APPLAUSE
:06:58. > :07:02.My goodness, I never expected to come here tonight and agree with
:07:02. > :07:07.Will Hutton so much. You are absolutely right. Then you don't
:07:07. > :07:10.need to follow him. I was going to say you like the fact we have
:07:10. > :07:14.introduced a mobility programme nationwide so people can swap homes.
:07:14. > :07:17.And about jobs and ambition, is that one million new jobs have been
:07:17. > :07:22.advertised in the last three months alone. That is a huge number of
:07:22. > :07:32.jobs. If we can fit people together with the jobs that are there and if
:07:32. > :07:35.there is mobility then we have a good programme. Elin Jones. It's an
:07:35. > :07:43.absolute tragedy that one million young people are out of work and
:07:43. > :07:46.the statistics are worse in Wales. It's around 20% here in Wales and
:07:46. > :07:51.there are regions in England as well, where the percentages are far
:07:51. > :07:57.too high. I would say two things. One, we need to change the course
:07:57. > :08:01.of the current UK economic policy. We are near recession and we need a
:08:01. > :08:07.fiscal stimulus to provide a really imaginative capital investment
:08:07. > :08:15.programme that gets hospitals, homes being built. How much would
:08:15. > :08:18.you spend? In Wales. No, in the UK. You don't have the money in Wales.
:08:18. > :08:22.As Plaid Cymru we have been pressing the Welsh Government to
:08:22. > :08:27.put forward a Bill for Wales. would you like to see in the whole
:08:27. > :08:32.of the UK? How much money would you like to spend? We have estimated
:08:32. > :08:35.that in Wales we could be spending around �500 million on a capital
:08:35. > :08:43.investment programme. Multiply that by 20 and we get to the figure for
:08:43. > :08:47.the UK. We want to see a capital investment programme and a really
:08:47. > :08:52.imaginative one, because these issues are serious. Also, and more
:08:52. > :08:56.immediate, to tackle the immediate problem, the CBI have been saying
:08:56. > :09:00.they want to see the UK Government provide direct support to take on
:09:00. > :09:05.young people, to get them off benefits so they are not losing
:09:05. > :09:10.hope and not losing their life chances and are getting proper jobs.
:09:10. > :09:14.There are many people with their hands up. I want to hear from Simon
:09:14. > :09:19.Jenkins and then I'll come to you, Sir, because you had your hand up
:09:19. > :09:23.from the very beginning. It's the easiest thing for a politician to
:09:23. > :09:27.say I would create one million jobs. I suppose we have always been
:09:27. > :09:34.hearing this. It's the easiest thing to say I would invest �500
:09:34. > :09:40.million in public works. Any fool can say that. There are no jobs
:09:40. > :09:45.there at the moment. There will only be jobs if you restimulate the
:09:45. > :09:49.economy. I have a certain sympathy for the Government. I don't see
:09:49. > :09:53.anything terribly wrong in trying to get back to the balance that we
:09:53. > :10:00.had five years ago. What is clearly the case is that for Government to
:10:00. > :10:04.be spending $800 billion bailing out banks, which I have to say is
:10:04. > :10:12.an obsession of mine is utterly pointless if you are going to print
:10:12. > :10:15.money and give it to people to spend it. Isn't the other pointless
:10:15. > :10:18.thing paying people to be unemployed rather than employed so
:10:18. > :10:26.they can pay taxes so we could then deal with the debt? There are no
:10:26. > :10:31.jobs. You can get a job if you stimulate the economy and private
:10:31. > :10:37.sector activity increases and people have work. There is no point
:10:37. > :10:42.in pleading with a bank to lend money to a bankrupt company. Simon,
:10:42. > :10:47.what do you make of the figures that show that British employment
:10:47. > :10:51.is lagging and foreign employment in Britain is rising? We know why
:10:51. > :10:54.that is the case, because it's cheaper to employ foreigners. There
:10:54. > :10:58.is less burden on the regulatory framework, but I don't think that
:10:58. > :11:02.is the answer to the question. The answer to the question -- There
:11:02. > :11:09.they not jobs that could become British? They are indeed. If you
:11:09. > :11:15.adopt that attitude, I'm not a protectionist on the whole. Even
:11:15. > :11:18.with one million youth unemployed? I think I wouldn't do it then.
:11:19. > :11:23.There are a lot of young people in the audience. There are lots of
:11:23. > :11:29.other people who are unemployed who are not under 24 and it's as
:11:29. > :11:33.debilitating for them as a young person. Speaking as an employer in
:11:33. > :11:36.the area, I would urge the Government to have some kind of
:11:36. > :11:40.stimulus and incentive for us to take on youngsters, because I
:11:40. > :11:44.remember way back in the old YTS days that was the first springboard
:11:44. > :11:48.that gave us the advantage to take on young people. We took on two,
:11:48. > :11:51.three, four and they grew with us as a company. One of them ended up
:11:51. > :11:55.as a factory manager and it's important that the Government puts
:11:55. > :12:00.that in again. I have to disagree with Simon Jenkins. Everybody I
:12:00. > :12:05.know who runs a company is desperate for an extra pair of
:12:05. > :12:11.hands, but we can't afford to take them on. Do you have any incentive
:12:11. > :12:16.at the moment of any kind? Nothing at all. I feel a holiday for
:12:16. > :12:20.national insurance would be big, but to help us pay the wages too.
:12:20. > :12:25.Absolutely. I set up my own printing company 21 years ago this
:12:25. > :12:30.weekend and if I think back to the one measure that made it harder to
:12:30. > :12:34.employ people, it is what the employment right period was change
:12:34. > :12:38.-- changed and it made it harder to employ. We'll make sure that it
:12:38. > :12:48.will make it easier to hire people, by putting the emploit rights back
:12:48. > :12:54.
:12:54. > :12:59.to 12 months. -- employment rights That is the incentive that we need.
:12:59. > :13:03.Not the employment rights - that is another issue. APPLAUSE You are
:13:03. > :13:08.right along the lines of exactly what the policy is outside of the
:13:08. > :13:12.South East. We are providing incentives for small firms to take
:13:12. > :13:17.on people without those additional costs... He is not getting them.
:13:17. > :13:27.are based in Wales and we are not... Depends when the business started
:13:27. > :13:28.
:13:28. > :13:32.up. This has been going for 30 years. OK. Will Hutton? It's the
:13:32. > :13:40.deepest recession and longest recession since the 19th Century.
:13:40. > :13:44.It won't be till 2013 or 2014 that we get back to the levels of output
:13:44. > :13:51.in 2008. This is a more serious issue that we confront in Britain
:13:51. > :13:56.than we have faced for over 125 years. Your point? You can borrow
:13:56. > :14:05.in the capital markets for the lowest rates of interest since the
:14:05. > :14:10.1890s. Let's put the country to work! APPLAUSE Listen... Simon is
:14:10. > :14:17.right. You must not manhandle him Simon is right. If you are going to
:14:17. > :14:20.get banks to lend, you have to have people who are prepared to borrow.
:14:20. > :14:24.Hold on, you have correctly identified we have the lowest
:14:24. > :14:28.interest rates forever. The reason for that is because we have a
:14:28. > :14:33.credible plan to tackle the deficit which is about to send us, was to
:14:33. > :14:39.send us the way of Ireland, Greece and Italy. The idea that you can
:14:39. > :14:47.solve a debt crisis by taking on more debt is of course completely
:14:47. > :14:51.economically untrue. APPLAUSE The man there? How can the Government
:14:51. > :14:55.justify higher tuition fees when so many graduates are left unemployed
:14:55. > :14:59.and no-one is going to want to go to university? Are you at
:14:59. > :15:03.university? Yes. Hold that point. We will go to the man there on the
:15:04. > :15:08.right. You? I think I have been very disappointed by the response
:15:08. > :15:13.from the two politicians from Westminster to the question. They
:15:13. > :15:18.haven't shown any urgency like Will said. Really, because the Housing
:15:18. > :15:22.Minister is here, I would like to say, like Simon said, you have
:15:22. > :15:26.pumped that money into the banks, why didn't you put it into a house
:15:26. > :15:30.building programme? Are you going forward with the eco-villages, eco-
:15:30. > :15:35.towns? You could use the money which you spent on quantitative
:15:35. > :15:38.easing, yeah, put that into house building, sell the houses and it's
:15:38. > :15:42.the same type of scenario as the quantitative easing but you are
:15:42. > :15:49.giving people jobs - plumbers, electricians. Is that programme
:15:49. > :15:52.still going ahead? If not, why not? I'm all in favour of building
:15:52. > :15:56.houses. House building is up by a quarter under this Government, so
:15:56. > :16:00.we are getting somewhere with it. We are about to do a housing
:16:00. > :16:02.strategy. You are right, when you build homes it does create a lot of
:16:02. > :16:07.employment in the construction industry, the kind of jobs we want
:16:07. > :16:11.to get created as well. The answer again goes back to Will's point,
:16:11. > :16:14.you can't simply build an economy by adding to debt when your main
:16:14. > :16:21.problem is that for every �4 that we were spending as a nation we
:16:21. > :16:29.were borrowing one of those pounds. You have to stop building on the
:16:29. > :16:34.debt. What he needs if he is going to employ more young people is an
:16:34. > :16:41.incentive, such as a National Insurance... We scrapped your jobs
:16:41. > :16:48.tax. That is why we scrapped your jobs tax. Now, what I can't get out
:16:48. > :16:51.of Grant is I cannot understand why it is you decided to print �700
:16:51. > :16:57.billion and do something with it to stimulate the economy. What you did
:16:57. > :17:01.with it was you gave it to a bank which saved it. What you could have
:17:01. > :17:04.done with it, you could have doubled pensions for a year, you
:17:04. > :17:08.should have showered the money over the High Street for a year, you
:17:08. > :17:13.could have done something with it and you didn't. You gave it to a
:17:13. > :17:17.bank. Why? That was something that happened during a previous
:17:17. > :17:21.administration. The rescue of the banks was an earlier issue.
:17:21. > :17:28.gave �400 billion to them three months ago. The woman, two from the
:17:28. > :17:32.back? You won't get an answer! of the main problems is Wales is
:17:32. > :17:39.dependent on small business, small business can't borrow money to take
:17:39. > :17:43.people on. The Project Merlin has failed its targets. There needs to
:17:43. > :17:47.be more effective banking reform. If you can get business to borrow
:17:47. > :17:50.money, they can take people on. That is what needs to be solved as
:17:50. > :17:55.well as looking at the deficit. you in business yourself? I am
:17:55. > :18:00.starting a business. Are you borrowing for it? I haven't applied
:18:00. > :18:03.yet. At some point, I will be. People are telling me it is really
:18:03. > :18:12.hard, the High Street banks don't want to lend. That is something the
:18:12. > :18:15.Government needs to tackle now. APPLAUSE The man there? Why is it
:18:15. > :18:23.that students that aren't necessarily as academic as some
:18:23. > :18:30.others, why are they pressured into doing BTECS? Surely it would be
:18:30. > :18:37.better if they were out in the world of work? OK. You, Sir? Surely
:18:37. > :18:42.you need to create some rewards for them to create jobs? Why not pump
:18:42. > :18:46.the money into the private sector? We come back to it week-by-week.
:18:46. > :18:53.Another question. Andrew Richards? Are the calls from doctors to ban
:18:53. > :18:59.smoking in cars a step too far? Elin Jones, in favour or not?
:18:59. > :19:03.I am certainly in favour of banning smoking in cars where children are
:19:03. > :19:08.present and I have been a long time supporter of that. The Welsh
:19:08. > :19:12.Government is currently considering introducing legislation in Wales on
:19:12. > :19:20.that. Children of course travelling in cars, when they are exposed to
:19:20. > :19:26.smoke, take on that smoke, its toxicity is harmful to those
:19:26. > :19:33.children. It is appropriate for the state to intervene to ban what is...
:19:33. > :19:37.What would you do if you are driving from England with kids in
:19:37. > :19:41.the car? That is what devolution is about. In the USA, in Australia,
:19:41. > :19:43.different states have banned smoking in cars and they seem to
:19:43. > :19:50.manage quite well there so I am sure English people driving over
:19:50. > :19:58.the border will be able to manage just in the same way. Simon Jenkins,
:19:58. > :20:03.are you in favour? I think it's outrageous to say to people what
:20:03. > :20:10.they should or should not be able to do in a car. I really do.
:20:10. > :20:13.APPLAUSE Last week, Oxford City Council decided they were going to
:20:13. > :20:17.have CCTV cameras inside their taxi and every conversation was going to
:20:17. > :20:25.be recorded in case it might be needed in a criminal case. We have
:20:25. > :20:30.gone completely mad. APPLAUSE were told the Coalition Government
:20:30. > :20:34.was going to put a stop to this. Every week, we are going to have
:20:34. > :20:37.ground to air missiles defending the Olympics. There is no limit to
:20:37. > :20:41.the lunacy from which Government authorities are not now capable.
:20:41. > :20:46.People want to do silly things in their cars, let them do it! It is
:20:46. > :20:51.not the Government's business. there are children in those cars
:20:51. > :20:55.and those children have no choice? I'm not going to kill them. It is
:20:55. > :21:00.not your business, it is MY business! Well, it is your
:21:00. > :21:07.children's business as well. You, Sir? They tried to ban people using
:21:07. > :21:13.mobile phones in cars but it hasn't worked. I see it all the time.
:21:13. > :21:17.Until they make it anti-social, nobody takes any notice. You, Sir?
:21:17. > :21:21.If they make smoking banned in cars, then people are going to smoke in
:21:21. > :21:27.their houses as well. It won't stop the problem. You need to inform the
:21:27. > :21:31.people rather than thinking you can legislate? The theory is it was 23
:21:31. > :21:37.times more dangerous to smoke in a car than in a bar, wasn't it?
:21:37. > :21:47.Presumably a bar with 23 people in it? You can probably smoke 23 more
:21:47. > :21:50.
:21:50. > :21:56.times at home. Are you in favour of this ban, Will Hutton? I am. We
:21:56. > :22:02.were against seatbelts, and deaths from road accidents have fallen by
:22:02. > :22:06.two-thirds over the last 30 years. What is it, there are still over
:22:06. > :22:12.50,000 deaths from cancer and 100,000 deaths from smoking-related
:22:12. > :22:22.diseases. When you smoke inside a car, the level of toxicity is
:22:22. > :22:29.
:22:29. > :22:34.extraordinary. It is a deathtrap. What about a convertible? LAUGHTER
:22:34. > :22:38.I think that it's - there was a lot of resistance to the idea of
:22:38. > :22:42.banning smoking in public places and we have done it. Now it is a
:22:42. > :22:49.social norm. What about the point that a car is a private place? What
:22:49. > :22:54.he does in the car is his business, not yours? It is a public place in
:22:54. > :22:57.this respect. If there is a kid in it with you, they are being
:22:57. > :23:00.directly damaged. Also the consequences of smoking is picked
:23:00. > :23:05.up by everybody in this room, in the health interventions that
:23:05. > :23:10.follow from it. It is our concern. It is our concern what people do in
:23:10. > :23:13.their back gardens. We live in a society, we are interdependent and
:23:14. > :23:18.actions of others impact on us. This is one of those difficult
:23:18. > :23:23.lines. I just about think it is worth doing. Thank you. The woman
:23:23. > :23:29.there? APPLAUSE You are talking a lot about the health risks and how
:23:29. > :23:33.it is a private place. I have been driving for a year and I would be a
:23:33. > :23:38.lot worried if there was someone trying to overtake me whilst having
:23:39. > :23:45.a fag. They are being distracted whilst driving, that is more the
:23:45. > :23:48.issue. APPLAUSE More like using a mobile phone? Exactly. This is a
:23:48. > :23:52.BMA recommendation, not adopted by the Government so far. You think
:23:52. > :23:55.the Government should adopt it? don't. I voted for the original
:23:56. > :24:00.smoking ban which I thought was the right thing to do. I think it is
:24:00. > :24:04.nice you can go to a restaurant bar, come home and your clothes don't
:24:04. > :24:08.stink. I was talking to my kids and explaining you were allowed to do
:24:08. > :24:11.that. They were amazed it was ever possible. Once you get down to the
:24:11. > :24:18.privacy of your own car - and the proposal is this would apply
:24:18. > :24:21.whether or not you had anybody else Presumably to the privacy of your
:24:21. > :24:24.own home. That is the state reaching too far. I fully endorse
:24:24. > :24:29.the idea that people shouldn't smoke in a car ideally with
:24:29. > :24:32.children in that car. That's called being a responsible parent. We need
:24:32. > :24:38.people to be responsible and not think that the state can always
:24:38. > :24:44.step in and tell people how to be responsible. It is a step too far.
:24:44. > :24:51.APPLAUSE Chris Bryant? In my patch in the Rhondda, we have a very high
:24:51. > :24:56.level of emSeema. The mines closed a long time ago. The vast majority
:24:56. > :25:00.of people in the Rhondda who suffer from that do so because of smoking.
:25:00. > :25:04.My mother smoked a lot when I was young. I remember once when she was
:25:04. > :25:11.moving house, cleaning the flat with her, and cleaning the ceiling
:25:11. > :25:16.above where she used to sit. Washing it and the kind of nicotine
:25:16. > :25:23.stain dribbling down my arm and I thought, "That's inside my lungs as
:25:23. > :25:32.well." To be honest, I think the Cavalier attitude about well, "They
:25:32. > :25:36.are my children, I can do with them what I want." That is not good
:25:36. > :25:39.enough. I don't think that is what Simon Jenkins said. You are
:25:39. > :25:42.poisoning your child if you smoke at home. We are not talking about
:25:42. > :25:46.what is the best thing to do, but what the best thing is for the
:25:46. > :25:50.Government to do. The most dangerous thing you can do in a
:25:50. > :25:54.motor car is arguing with your partner. Are you going to ban that?
:25:54. > :25:59.Are you going to ban second people in cars? This is the way we are
:25:59. > :26:04.going unless somebody says, "Listen, it is a bad thing, but we are not
:26:04. > :26:09.going to ban it" you will never take responsibility for anything.
:26:09. > :26:13.The man who designed the Mini said there shouldn't be radios in cars
:26:13. > :26:17.because it would distract people and people should drive in silence?
:26:17. > :26:25.I am sure Will will have the Government enacting that tomorrow!
:26:25. > :26:33.You, Sir? How can you enforce banning smoking in cars? I would
:26:33. > :26:42.much rather the police were looking for serious criminals. APPLAUSE OK.
:26:42. > :26:48.Just before we go on, if you are tweeting tonight, you can do that.
:26:48. > :26:56.We will tell you what others are saying. Alan Morgan Joans?
:26:56. > :27:02.Chancellor Merkel's right-hand man says now all of Europe is speaking
:27:02. > :27:07.German. Is this a true reflection of Mrs Merkel's aspiration to rule
:27:07. > :27:12.Europe? Simon Jenkins? I don't think it is. I think that she said
:27:12. > :27:16.it. It was one of her colleagues who said it. Either way, clearly
:27:16. > :27:21.Germany now finds itself in a position which it doesn't want to
:27:21. > :27:26.be in, of being by far the most powerful country in Europe
:27:26. > :27:30.economically. You are talking to a eurosceptic. I always thought - I
:27:30. > :27:37.hope I said it somewhere - I always thought that this would end in
:27:37. > :27:40.tears. This is the single currency. You cannot impose these sorts of
:27:40. > :27:46.rigidities on widely different economies with different frameworks.
:27:46. > :27:56.It will snap and it has now snapped. The snapping is in part Germany's
:27:56. > :28:02.fault, with the way the currency was organised. It can only be saved
:28:02. > :28:06.through Germany. Even then it won't be saved. I feel very strongly the
:28:06. > :28:10.countries of Europe have got to devalue. We have to go back to a
:28:10. > :28:14.situation in which their cost also be reflected in their currency.
:28:14. > :28:24.Everybody goes back to their currency? Yes. They will. I would
:28:24. > :28:25.
:28:25. > :28:30.predict they will. France and France and Germany? Certainly, the
:28:30. > :28:35.euro may be smaller. The point of the question is this - I think it
:28:35. > :28:39.is sort of unfair on Germany and I didn't like the Daily Mail today.
:28:39. > :28:43.It's unfair to say this is Germany once again trying to bestride
:28:43. > :28:47.Europe. Germany happens to be the most efficient country in Europe
:28:47. > :28:51.and hard-working country and just now we depend on Germany or the
:28:51. > :28:56.euro does, to bail it out. Germany's got to do that, but don't
:28:56. > :29:03.get into this mess again. You think the euro -
:29:03. > :29:09.APPLAUSE You are a euro-sceptic and you
:29:09. > :29:13.believe it's effectively finished. Will Hutton, is that your view?
:29:13. > :29:18.worried about the euro and this Parliamentary leader of the group
:29:18. > :29:26.in Germany who spoke at the final day of a conference, who said that,
:29:26. > :29:35.because we need the euro in Britain to pull through this. If Greece,
:29:35. > :29:39.for example, were to leave the euro unable to speak German, as was said
:29:39. > :29:43.in Germany, there would immediately be in Ireland, in Portugal, in
:29:43. > :29:48.Italy, in Spain, every citizen and every company in those countries
:29:48. > :29:52.would say, my God, we better get our money out and there would be a
:29:52. > :29:57.capital flight like we have seen before across Europe. Banks who had
:29:57. > :30:02.claims on Greece would be tottering. There would be a domino effect. Our
:30:02. > :30:06.banks have lent close to one trillion euro and our banks would
:30:06. > :30:12.need to be propped up by the British Government. I think there
:30:12. > :30:17.would be a depression across the European Union. The Italians are
:30:17. > :30:22.dog what they need to get through, -- doing what we need to do to get
:30:22. > :30:25.through and so are the Greeks and it is time for Germany and Angela
:30:25. > :30:30.Merkel's party to step up to the plate and take their responsibility
:30:30. > :30:34.for making it work. They have to create a properly financed European
:30:34. > :30:39.monetary fund to stand behind the countries to allow the ECB to do
:30:39. > :30:43.the business and pull the euro through. If Germany takes this
:30:43. > :30:49.attitude I'm very, very fearful for the European project and the euro
:30:49. > :30:53.and talking about our young unemployed, for them too. We are
:30:53. > :31:01.watching a potential catastrophe unfold here. Do you want to see
:31:01. > :31:05.Britain in the euro? I think in some respects - this is complicated.
:31:05. > :31:11.If you go back - at this moment in time, no. In 15 years' time,
:31:11. > :31:15.possibly. Grant Shapps. I don't want to see Britain in the euro now
:31:15. > :31:22.or the future. I think that it wouldn't be right -
:31:22. > :31:26.APPLAUSE - Those who said it upfront got it
:31:26. > :31:30.right. It was not the right project for this country. It's turned out
:31:30. > :31:37.not to be right in a lot of other places. Now the others are in the
:31:37. > :31:41.zone and unraffling from that could be incredibly difficult, -- un
:31:41. > :31:50.ravelling from that could be incredibly difficult. They need to
:31:50. > :31:56.start to work together to tix the - - fix the problem. The Prime
:31:56. > :32:01.Minister has talked about a big bazooka approach. It needs the
:32:01. > :32:05.institutions of Europe, whether the ECB, or Germany and the other
:32:05. > :32:10.countries all coming together, to put a firewall in place to ensure
:32:10. > :32:15.that the euro can succeed. Countries coming out of the euro
:32:15. > :32:19.will not be, as some people view it, from here, well, that doesn't
:32:19. > :32:22.patter they'll go back to their currencies. It will be a very
:32:22. > :32:27.difficult, ugly process. It will leave the British economy, who
:32:28. > :32:31.spend a lot of our time exporting to those countries, with a terrible
:32:31. > :32:37.deep-freeze chilling effect over all of us, so we have to stand by
:32:37. > :32:43.to help through things like the IMF, but we can't do that before the
:32:43. > :32:47.eurozone has done more to help itself. You Sir, there. We talked a
:32:47. > :32:51.lot about responsibility this evening and the eurozone and the
:32:51. > :32:56.European project was started by Germany with France in the 1950's.
:32:56. > :33:01.It has benefited from countries such as Greece and Portugal being
:33:01. > :33:05.able to borrow at interest rates similar to those at Germany without
:33:05. > :33:08.checking and sold and exported to those markets and profited from
:33:08. > :33:11.that, which is why it's in the position of strength that it's in
:33:11. > :33:15.today. If we are talking about responsibility, we are talking
:33:15. > :33:20.about a collapsing eurozone, we should be forcing Germany to bail
:33:20. > :33:24.that zone out. Forcing? Forcing Germany to bail the eurozone out
:33:24. > :33:30.and prop it up, because British banks and money and the Government
:33:31. > :33:35.has invested in the project and if it collapses we collapse.
:33:35. > :33:41.person there. I'm very worried about the way in which Will Hutton
:33:41. > :33:46.attempts to worry us. I think we hear far too much in this crisis
:33:46. > :33:52.about the dangers of international finance. For goodness sake,
:33:52. > :33:59.international finance is paper stuff. It is the problem.
:33:59. > :34:02.International finance moves from one place to another. Simon Jenkins
:34:02. > :34:08.rightly says why are they bailing them out? The reason is because of
:34:08. > :34:12.the sort of crisis that this is. It's a crisis which in old-
:34:12. > :34:20.fashioned times is an attempt to reduce demand everywhere. It's to
:34:20. > :34:23.reduce overheating and the way we have tackled the problems since
:34:23. > :34:27.Thatcher is through monetary devices and not fiscal. Because of
:34:27. > :34:32.the leaders in this country and Europe we have the dampening down
:34:32. > :34:38.of the economy, but then goodness, the rich must be saved. It doesn't
:34:38. > :34:43.matter about the poor, but the rich must be saved. That's why the money
:34:44. > :34:49.is going into the banks to save the rich. QE saves the rich andle real
:34:49. > :34:54.problem from start to finish is irresponsible money running around
:34:55. > :35:00.the world, threatening us and real people. I think we have got the
:35:00. > :35:04.point. APPLAUSE
:35:04. > :35:10.It was your party that wasn't ashamed of people being filthy rich,
:35:10. > :35:12.Chris Bryant. What do you think of this? I think that the original
:35:12. > :35:16.question was about everybody speaking German. I think everyone
:35:16. > :35:20.in Europe is speaking English. That is the fact of it. But the problem
:35:20. > :35:25.is that we are not managing to get our argument across and I agree
:35:25. > :35:30.with the man up there that it's been an extraordinarily poor, weak
:35:30. > :35:33.set of leaders that we have had around Europe all at the same time.
:35:33. > :35:37.What Italy did to deserve Berlusconi I don't understand and
:35:37. > :35:40.how they kept on voting for him. Sarkozy is only interested in his
:35:40. > :35:44.re-election next year and Merkel only really interested in trying to
:35:44. > :35:49.keep the coalition together and poor soul, she has liberals in the
:35:49. > :35:55.Government as well. I realy do worry about the state of Europe at
:35:55. > :36:01.the moment. Will is absolutely right to say that if the euro fails
:36:01. > :36:06.and I see Tory MPs sitting in the House ringing their hands with glee
:36:06. > :36:11.every time someone mentions this, but not Grant to be fair, at the
:36:11. > :36:16.idea that the euro fails. If so, our economy will be stuffed not
:36:16. > :36:20.just for five years, but perhaps 20 years. We - I think we should have
:36:20. > :36:24.been doing much more to bind together a caucus of Britain,
:36:24. > :36:27.France and Germany, providing much more leadership on this issue, and
:36:27. > :36:32.of course, Greece should never have been allowed to join the euro. If
:36:32. > :36:35.we had said that Europe if you wanted to join you had to subscribe
:36:35. > :36:39.to enforced audit done externally then we would have known that the
:36:39. > :36:43.figures were a pack of lies. seem as a politician in a curious
:36:43. > :36:50.position to be criticising France and Germany, because they have got
:36:50. > :36:55.elections coming up. You know well that politicians with elections try
:36:56. > :37:00.to win. Do you prefer to have the bureaucrats in charge now? In Italy,
:37:00. > :37:04.I would have preferred to have Mario Monti than Berlusconi.
:37:04. > :37:09.one elected politician in the Government? That's not my favourite,
:37:09. > :37:15.obviously. Would prefer to have elected governments, but I think -
:37:15. > :37:19.and democracy is fundamentally one of the reasons why I am not
:37:19. > :37:21.slightly pro-European, but I'm ardently and passionately pro-
:37:21. > :37:27.European, because I was brought up in Spain and there was a
:37:27. > :37:31.dictatorship in Spain. One of the reasons I think that Greece hasn't
:37:31. > :37:37.gone to a dictatorship in recent weeks is because of its membership
:37:37. > :37:42.of the EU. The same circumstances 50 years ago led to dictatorship
:37:42. > :37:47.under the generals. The woman in red. I think the panellists have
:37:47. > :37:52.avoided the point that man made here. The reason we are in this
:37:52. > :37:56.mess both in the UK and Europe is because all of them are pursuing
:37:56. > :38:00.this money trist policy. It's actually the bankers that have come
:38:00. > :38:03.back and bitten their countries, after they've been bailed out by
:38:03. > :38:09.them. They now create such high interest rates that the countries
:38:09. > :38:13.can't pay back the bonds that the banks have bought. It's just a
:38:13. > :38:18.vicious circle because of the monetary policies being pursued.
:38:18. > :38:21.Elin Jones, do you agree? I think there is continuing to be
:38:21. > :38:27.overspeculation in the international monetary markets.
:38:27. > :38:31.That's why we need the introduction of an international transactions
:38:31. > :38:36.tax, so that there is a dampening down of international transactions,
:38:36. > :38:39.but if I can come back to the point about the role of Germany. Germany,
:38:39. > :38:45.yes, has benefited significantly out of being in the eurozone and
:38:45. > :38:51.Germany does need to take its responsibility now to provide the
:38:51. > :38:56.backing for the euro. The UK economic interests requires a
:38:57. > :39:02.stable and confident eurozone, but forcing Germany to do that from a
:39:02. > :39:06.UK view, David Cameron earlier this week megaphoneed diplomacy and
:39:06. > :39:10.euro-sceptic remarks. That is not the way for a UK leader to be
:39:10. > :39:16.defending the UK compibg interests at this time and seeking to
:39:16. > :39:25.influence desh economic interests at this time and seeking --
:39:25. > :39:29.economic interests at this time and seeking to befriend Germany. There
:39:29. > :39:33.is a major premise, which is that the euro, Europe, anything to do
:39:33. > :39:37.with it, has to be good. It is going to be a serious problem if we
:39:37. > :39:43.adopt that attitude. I think it's just possible that something in it
:39:43. > :39:50.wasn't a good thing. The Europe growth rate before the euro was
:39:50. > :39:54.introduced was twice as fast than when it was introduced. It was
:39:54. > :39:57.conceivable that it was a better system before, sometimes. On
:39:57. > :40:01.Germany, this is off the point, but you can just see what will happen.
:40:01. > :40:04.Everyone will start getting at Germany and it's now impossible to
:40:04. > :40:09.turn on the radio, open the newspaper, go to the cinema,
:40:09. > :40:14.without something to do with the war. We are completely obsessed
:40:14. > :40:18.with Germany again, just like we were in the 20's. It's a country
:40:18. > :40:24.that has huge things going for it. If you are going right back and
:40:24. > :40:30.rethinking the wars in everything we do, every opera in London is
:40:30. > :40:34.recast in German clothes. It's been true for years. Where I take issue
:40:34. > :40:36.is I agree there are things about Europe that are not right. The
:40:36. > :40:40.Common Agricultural Policy is immoral and it means that poor
:40:40. > :40:46.people in other parts of the world are not able to make a living, but,
:40:46. > :40:52.in the end the one thing I have learnt out of these last few months
:40:52. > :40:56.is our economy cannot stand alone. We are involved in Europe. However
:40:56. > :41:03.much there is a little ringing bell in the back of Tory backbenchers'
:41:03. > :41:06.heads, which makes them salivate the moment Europe is mentioned. Our
:41:06. > :41:11.destiny is part of Europe. totally agree, but the point was
:41:11. > :41:21.made here, it is conceivable that the euro was a Miss Take. --
:41:21. > :41:21.
:41:21. > :41:28.mistake. You concede that? I'm not conceding. I'm a generous gentleman
:41:28. > :41:31.and I'm always - I think it was really wrong of George Osborne this
:41:31. > :41:37.week start undermining the French economy. We need the euro to
:41:37. > :41:42.survive for our own interests. may come back, firstly, my comments
:41:42. > :41:45.about Germany were in no way jingoistic. We need to be very
:41:45. > :41:48.careful about that, but if someone is responsible, then we need to
:41:48. > :41:52.ensure that we recognise that responsibility and not shy way from
:41:52. > :41:56.pointing the finger in the right direction. While we are on the
:41:56. > :42:00.subject of pointing the finger, the reason this collapse has come about
:42:00. > :42:06.is partly because of monetary systems and the capitalist markets,
:42:06. > :42:10.but it's only partly. It is mostly because Greece has had a centre-
:42:10. > :42:17.left socialist Government, which has overspent and borrowed for 30
:42:17. > :42:22.years and Portugal has had a centre left socialist Government - It was
:42:22. > :42:28.a Conservative Government. You are wrong. Since 1981 Greece has had a
:42:28. > :42:34.socialist Government. Rather than arguing about the parties, the
:42:34. > :42:37.reason that Germany is so powerful is because Germany has a much more
:42:37. > :42:47.efficient and productive economy and that's what everyone should be
:42:47. > :42:51.
:42:51. > :42:55.Galloway? Why is our Government pushing up our energy bills by
:42:55. > :43:00.giving subsidies to wind farms which are proven to be uneconomic?
:43:00. > :43:07.This is a big issue in the centre of Wales. Why is the Government
:43:07. > :43:11.pushing up our energy bills by giving subsidies to wind farms
:43:11. > :43:15.which is uneconomic that the wind farms don't work. Grant Shapps, you
:43:15. > :43:21.are been under attack. Why are you spending your money in this way?
:43:21. > :43:25.There are a range of different incentives for renewable energies.
:43:26. > :43:29.We are on track to do that. Wind is one of those. There's obviously a
:43:29. > :43:32.balance, a judgment to be made about where the money goes, which
:43:32. > :43:37.of the various different technologies are supported. Is it
:43:37. > :43:40.economic or uneconomic to have wind farms? Oh I see. I know there is a
:43:40. > :43:45.particular issue in Wales and possibly in this part of Wales
:43:45. > :43:51.about wind farms. I don't want to talk about a specific locality that
:43:51. > :43:58.I'm not familiar with enough to answer simply because if it was in
:43:58. > :44:02.my neck of the woods I would know what was going on. What I can tell
:44:03. > :44:07.you is the overall policy. We do have a policy that says we want to
:44:07. > :44:11.ensure that wind is a sustainable future, that there is a way of
:44:11. > :44:13.creating an industry and sometimes industries like this need to be
:44:13. > :44:18.kick-started and that's the decision that's been made and that
:44:18. > :44:21.is why there is a certain amount of subsidy in exactly the same way
:44:21. > :44:28.that there's been subsidy in the past into other industries from
:44:28. > :44:33.nuclear, to oil, to gas and many others. Let's hear from one or two
:44:33. > :44:39.members of the audience. Why - the amount of energy that wind farms
:44:39. > :44:43.produce is very variable. National Grid have said that it is very
:44:43. > :44:48.difficult to try and predict when the wind is going to blow. And we
:44:48. > :44:52.have had high pressure last winter when we needed lots of energy and
:44:52. > :44:56.we got nothing from the wind farms. Are you in favour of the wind
:44:56. > :45:04.farms? No. Why are you destroying the beautiful areas of mid-Wales to
:45:04. > :45:10.build these useless pieces of technology? APPLAUSE All right. I
:45:10. > :45:18.will come back to you. You can hear what people here think. Simon
:45:18. > :45:24.Jenkins, what do you think of it? don't think we have any on our land,
:45:24. > :45:28.thank God! I have driven the length of the Upper Severn Valley to see
:45:28. > :45:34.what they are going to do with the wind turbines and the pylons that
:45:34. > :45:38.will have to carry this energy down the beautiful valleys of mid-Wales.
:45:38. > :45:44.Back before the war, Wales sold its valleys to the English for water.
:45:44. > :45:51.It's now selling its hills to the English for power. APPLAUSE
:45:51. > :45:55.difference is... A flooded valley has a certain charm to it. I find
:45:55. > :45:59.no charm in these power stations littering the hills. They don't do
:45:59. > :46:03.it in North Wales because it is a National Park. They claim they are
:46:04. > :46:12.beautiful, but they did it all over mid-Wales! It is the most wasteful
:46:12. > :46:16.way of generating electricity. I am in favour of water, sun, and I'm in
:46:16. > :46:19.favour of the barrage too. These things, for the price they exact on
:46:19. > :46:23.the environment, it is a crazy way of spending public money. It is not
:46:23. > :46:31.as if they make money. We are spending public money ruining the
:46:31. > :46:34.landscape. It is madness. APPLAUSE You, Sir? Personally, I don't take
:46:34. > :46:38.the argument that they are unaesthetic. If we need to save
:46:39. > :46:45.energy, we need to save energy. They aren't the most economical.
:46:45. > :46:49.Considering the amount of rivers we have here in Wales, would it not be
:46:49. > :46:53.more usual to use hydroelectric power. Will Hutton, are you in
:46:53. > :46:59.favour of the windmill? No, I am in favour of renewables and I am in
:46:59. > :47:03.favour of having as many sources of energy as we can. In the years
:47:03. > :47:09.ahead, we will not only burn all these fossil fuels, notably oil and
:47:09. > :47:15.gas, we are going to lift world temperatures by doing it. So we
:47:15. > :47:21.have to move to other ways of doing energy. As it happens, wind farms
:47:21. > :47:29.are as the lady said, they are not only expensive but when you want
:47:29. > :47:34.the power most, like last winter, in December, when it was very cold,
:47:34. > :47:40.there was no wind. That doesn't mean you then flip from that
:47:40. > :47:46.statement to saying, "Oh, all renewables are nonsensical." We
:47:46. > :47:54.have to make commitment to solar, to nuclear, we have to make
:47:54. > :48:00.commitment to tidal. Windmills you are against? Unless you know -
:48:00. > :48:06.unless the wind is continuous, which it is out to sea, do it there.
:48:06. > :48:12.The woman there? One of the things that causes anger in this area is
:48:12. > :48:17.the extent to which it is a huge scam. We are all paying more for
:48:17. > :48:27.our electricity bills and the what you are asking is a widow on a
:48:27. > :48:29.
:48:29. > :48:33.fixed income to pay for a wealthy landowner's life. What annoys me
:48:33. > :48:36.particularly is when people who are on the left think that it is OK for
:48:36. > :48:40.people on fixed incomes to be forced into fuel poverty. We all
:48:40. > :48:45.know the lower your income, the higher proportion you pay in fuel.
:48:45. > :48:51.That money is going directly into the pockets of the wealthiest
:48:51. > :48:57.minority of landowners. This surely must be a political scandal? Elin
:48:57. > :49:02.Jones? APPLAUSE Will you answer her point? Do you agree with her?
:49:02. > :49:06.agree with a lot of what was said there. I do... Which bit do you
:49:06. > :49:11.disagree with? I don't think we shared the same view on wind
:49:11. > :49:15.turbines in particular. That was the main point. I support the
:49:15. > :49:18.introduction of wind turbines. There are issues about location and
:49:18. > :49:24.appropriate locations. There is a particular issue in an area not too
:49:24. > :49:33.far away from here in terms of the density of numbers of wind turbines.
:49:33. > :49:38.We are in Wales on this west coast, we benefit from the North Atlantic
:49:38. > :49:46.drift. We have wind at our disposal... You are in favour of
:49:46. > :49:50.�50 subsidies? It needs to be utilised. Despite the fact it is
:49:50. > :49:56.affecting increased electricity prices? There are subsidies, yes.
:49:56. > :50:02.There is considerable... �50 in �100, is that correct? I don't know
:50:02. > :50:07.if that is correct. I checked, that is the figure. There is
:50:07. > :50:11.considerable subsidy... Why bother asking?! I'm against nuclear energy.
:50:11. > :50:17.I'm also against burning of more fossil fuels that affect our
:50:17. > :50:21.climate. APPLAUSE We have to have a mix of renewable energy. At the
:50:21. > :50:27.moment, wind energy is part of that. There are more powerful forms of
:50:27. > :50:32.renewable energy that need to be exploited as well - hydro, tidal,
:50:32. > :50:35.certainly, and Wales can benefit from a lot of that. Chris Bryant?
:50:35. > :50:39.agree with the lady who said about the difference between people who
:50:39. > :50:43.are trapped in energy poverty. In 1986, I was in Latin America. I
:50:43. > :50:46.came back and I learnt that my mother throughout that winter had
:50:46. > :50:50.had her electricity cut off because she wasn't able to pay the bill. I
:50:50. > :50:55.felt terribly ashamed about that. I think there are many people who get
:50:55. > :50:59.very angry about the fact that energy prices seem to go up very
:50:59. > :51:02.quickly, when the world prices go up, and they come down very slowly
:51:02. > :51:07.when the world prices come down. We need to do more to tackle the
:51:07. > :51:13.problem that there is there of energy companies ripping us off. I
:51:13. > :51:19.think we do, however, have to deal with the fact that climate change
:51:19. > :51:24.is a reality. APPLAUSE If we ruin this world, because the temperature
:51:24. > :51:30.of the water rises by two degrees and you will see not just the
:51:30. > :51:34.migration patterns that we have had recently, but much, much worse,
:51:34. > :51:39.because some of the poorest of people live closest to the oceans
:51:39. > :51:44.and they will lose their homes. We must do everything to have a broad
:51:44. > :51:51.range of renewable energy. This sentence will make me very
:51:51. > :51:55.unpopular, but I like the look of them. APPLAUSE I think it should be
:51:55. > :52:01.for local people to decide whether it happens in their backyard or not.
:52:01. > :52:08.We will leave the aesthetic... that why the Labour Party are
:52:08. > :52:12.refusing to seek the devolution of over 100 megawatts of... No, we
:52:12. > :52:19.will leave wind there. We have five minutes left. I would like to take
:52:19. > :52:23.this question. It's from Ben Prizeman. It's been reported that
:52:23. > :52:28.3,500 people have been killed by President Assad of Syria. How many
:52:28. > :52:38.more people have to die before Britain considers a Libyan-style
:52:38. > :52:39.
:52:39. > :52:46.intervention? Simon Jenkins? APPLAUSE I'm sorry. It's not my
:52:46. > :52:51.country. APPLAUSE I was there recently. I think it's a wonderful
:52:51. > :52:55.place. I admire the people in Syria who are fighting for their freedom.
:52:55. > :53:02.I admire people anywhere who are fighting for their freedom. It is
:53:02. > :53:06.not my country. It's my species, you are right. Your voice is the
:53:06. > :53:11.voice of brute Imperialism down the ages. It is not my country. Libya,
:53:11. > :53:17.you were against as well? It turned out all right, but I was against it.
:53:17. > :53:21.I was against Iraq. I'm against Afghanistan. We can't go round
:53:21. > :53:25.ruling the world any more. I do think that just because we are part
:53:25. > :53:27.of the world that we do sometimes have a responsibility, in fact we
:53:27. > :53:31.always have a responsibility, but sometimes we have the ability to do
:53:31. > :53:37.something about it. That was the case in Libya and it saved probably
:53:37. > :53:40.hundreds of thousands of lives. I think that to say now that that was
:53:40. > :53:45.a mistake, to go there and look those people in the face and say it
:53:45. > :53:52.was a mistake to back them, would be an incredible... Was Iraq a
:53:52. > :53:56.mistake? We didn't act in Libya until the Arab League made it clear
:53:56. > :54:01.that they had had enough of what was going on there. They are doing
:54:01. > :54:05.the same now with what is going on in Syria. Actually, it is very
:54:05. > :54:10.important that this is led by the Arab League. There are obviously
:54:10. > :54:15.different dynamics at the UN. The question is right. 3,500 people
:54:15. > :54:21.have died since March in pretty brutal repression. I don't feel
:54:21. > :54:28.comfortable just sitting back and saying, "That is OK." We have to do
:54:28. > :54:34.everything we can. Hang on a second. The question was whether how many
:54:34. > :54:40.people have to die before Britain considers a Libyan-style
:54:40. > :54:43.intervention? Look. Every single case is different. The fact that we
:54:43. > :54:49.might like to intervene in more places doesn't mean we always can.
:54:49. > :54:52.The fact you can't intervene everywhere doesn't mean you
:54:52. > :54:56.shouldn't intervene anywhere. In the case of Syria, we are not there
:54:56. > :55:00.yet because the UN isn't there yet. We had UN backing to look after
:55:00. > :55:04.what was going on in Libya. sound as though you would consider
:55:04. > :55:08.it if there were a UN intervention. Do you think Chris Bryant that
:55:09. > :55:14.should be considered? No, I do want to make sure this stops. Some of
:55:14. > :55:19.the pictures that we have seen have been hideous. I suspect we have not
:55:19. > :55:23.seen half of it. One of the things I feel very angry about is the
:55:23. > :55:27.behaviour of Russia. Russia is one of the countrys that is trying to
:55:27. > :55:31.prevent a UN agreement. I think we should do everything we possibly
:55:31. > :55:36.can through reasonable methods, diplomacy as far as we possibly can.
:55:36. > :55:40.Yes, binding in the Arab League, but it is Russia at the moment
:55:40. > :55:44.largely because of its own financial and political links with
:55:44. > :55:47.the leadership in Syria that is preventing an international common
:55:47. > :55:51.position and their Foreign Minister this morning was disgraceful in
:55:51. > :55:56.what he was saying. The question is how many more before Britain
:55:56. > :56:00.considers a Libyan-style intervention? You were in favour as
:56:00. > :56:05.a former Foreign Minister? I don't vote for it, no. You were against
:56:05. > :56:13.it? Well, I wasn't present on the day of the vote. I don't want to
:56:13. > :56:17.overstate... Sorry, was that deliberate? It was. I didn't want...
:56:17. > :56:22.You abstained? Yes. Do you not agree it is the right thing to do?
:56:22. > :56:27.I think it turned out right. I was very worried at the beginning
:56:27. > :56:32.because I felt - a lot of people go and fight on behalf of this country.
:56:32. > :56:41.I don't want to see more dead British people coming back.
:56:41. > :56:46.APPLAUSE Will Hutton? Tyranny is tyranny. Deaths are deaths. We have
:56:46. > :56:50.an obligation to others, that's been true throughout history. If
:56:50. > :56:54.you find really tyrannous things happening, people inside those
:56:54. > :56:59.countries look to outsiders to help them. That is the principle we have
:56:59. > :57:04.to stand by. Do we do it the same way as in Libya? It can't be done
:57:05. > :57:11.by Britain, which is only a medium- ranking power now. We haven't got
:57:11. > :57:17.the arsenal to do it. So we have to provide support to the Arab League
:57:17. > :57:22.and support to others. We should be unashamedly on the side of right in
:57:22. > :57:30.this position. Unashamedly on the side of the people who want to get
:57:30. > :57:34.rid of a tyrant. OK. APPLAUSE Elin Jones, if you could - can you
:57:34. > :57:39.answer the question whether you think Britain should intervene?
:57:39. > :57:44.not at this stage, certainly. I am pleased to see the Arab League are
:57:44. > :57:48.taking the lead on this. That is how it should happen. We have
:57:48. > :57:52.learnt lessons. We have learnt lessons from our soldiers still
:57:52. > :57:58.being in Afghanistan that it doesn't work well when Western
:57:58. > :58:04.countries seek to intervene and seek to be sometimes Imperial is
:58:04. > :58:10.tick. Is that how you saw the Libyan intervention? All these
:58:10. > :58:15.cases are different. The UN backing, the clear need for intervention in
:58:16. > :58:19.Libya and in hindsight it seems to have worked well. But in hindsight
:58:19. > :58:25.Afghanistan hasn't worked well. right. So we need to learn lessons
:58:26. > :58:29.from the past. But we need to provide support for the Arab League
:58:29. > :58:35.in making sure that President Assad is not able to carry on with
:58:35. > :58:40.killing his own people. Thank you. We must stop. Our time is up.
:58:40. > :58:44.Apologies to those who didn't get a chance to speak. Next week we are
:58:44. > :58:50.in Bath. We have the founder of Wikipedia on our panel, the website
:58:50. > :58:56.that makes experts of all of us. The Energy Secretary Chris Huhne
:58:56. > :59:05.and Justin King, the boss of Sainsbury's. Then we will be in
:59:05. > :59:08.Dagenham. Do come. The number to Or you can apply on