:00:12. > :00:17.By strikes, economic gloom, germy Clarkson's jokes. Plenty to debate
:00:17. > :00:26.here in Dagenham, and welcome to Question Time. -- Jeremy Clarkson's
:00:26. > :00:31.jokes. With me, just a secretary Ken Clarke, should have Business
:00:31. > :00:34.Secretary, Chuka Umunna, leader of the teachers' union the ATL, Mary
:00:34. > :00:39.Bousted, American political commentator David from, a
:00:39. > :00:49.speechwriter for George W Bush, and businesswoman, star of Dragon's Den,
:00:49. > :00:57.
:00:57. > :01:01.We have a lot of serious things to talk about, but let's start with
:01:01. > :01:05.something not so serious. Do the panel feel Jeremy Clarkson should
:01:05. > :01:15.be prosecuted for his comments about strikers, and if found guilty,
:01:15. > :01:17.
:01:17. > :01:22.should he be taken outside and shot?
:01:22. > :01:25.Maybe skip the prosecution and just take him out and shoot him.
:01:25. > :01:29.Obviously, we have all been discussing this today and I think
:01:29. > :01:33.the truth of the matter is, I did not like what he said but I would
:01:33. > :01:38.hate to live in a society where somebody could not make that
:01:38. > :01:42.comment. All of us can say it was an awful thing to say. I do not
:01:42. > :01:47.think it was funny. Maybe some people did think it was funny. But
:01:47. > :01:55.he has apologised and that says it all to me. At the end of the day,
:01:55. > :02:00.he did not think it was the right thing either. He did not actually
:02:00. > :02:05.quite apologise, did he? He said, if it upsets people, he was sorry.
:02:05. > :02:08.If I caused any offence, I am happy to apologise. It is the kind of
:02:08. > :02:13.apology Ken Clarke made when he was attacked for what he said about
:02:13. > :02:19.rape. He said, obviously upset a lot of people by what I said, and
:02:19. > :02:25.I'm sorry if I did by the way I put it. That is about right, isn't it?
:02:25. > :02:29.We will come to you. I actually have been to a country where people
:02:29. > :02:34.are shot for being trade unionists, Colombia. It is most dangerous
:02:34. > :02:38.place in the world to be a trade unionist. Scores of trades
:02:38. > :02:43.unionists are killed, disappeared, tortured, murdered because they are
:02:43. > :02:46.trade unionists. I would simply say that Jeremy Clarkson, just
:02:46. > :02:51.translate strikers, public sector workers for another group in
:02:51. > :02:57.society who should be taken out and shot, and then see if it is funny.
:02:57. > :03:01.Did you see it? I have seen the replay. Did you see what he said
:03:01. > :03:05.first, because he says it has to be taken in context. First he said the
:03:05. > :03:10.strikes were wonderful. Then he said, this is the BBC and we have
:03:10. > :03:14.to be balanced. And you know where his real sympathies lie. It was
:03:14. > :03:19.unacceptable. If you say it about any other group in society, he
:03:19. > :03:23.would not be saying, I am sorry if I offended somebody. You could
:03:23. > :03:26.quite easily tell he was just taking the mickey. We do not live
:03:26. > :03:31.in Colombia. We live in England where you can get away with saying
:03:31. > :03:40.this sort of thing. There has been a big sense of humour failure on
:03:40. > :03:47.the part of the Labour Party and the unions.
:03:47. > :03:51.It was a bad taste joke. The questioner was successful in making
:03:51. > :03:58.a joke of it, and it was pretty silly. I think the indignation is
:03:58. > :04:04.mock. People are being po-faced, saying this is quite appalling. We
:04:04. > :04:12.ought to have a slightly better sense of humour. Jeremy Clarkson
:04:12. > :04:16.does say, he makes a speciality of bad taste and outrageous remarks.
:04:16. > :04:22.This takes the biscuit. But all of this po-faced business going on
:04:22. > :04:27.about it is trying to wrap it up a bit, really. I agree. My sister was
:04:27. > :04:30.on strike yesterday and I saw the programme and found it quite funny.
:04:30. > :04:35.It is a typical thing that Jeremy Clarkson would say and I cannot
:04:35. > :04:43.believe how out raged everyone is behaving. And your sister was not
:04:43. > :04:47.offended? She was, actually, but I wasn't. I am angry that we are
:04:47. > :04:52.discussing Jeremy Clarkson, because actually the issue, the industrial
:04:52. > :05:02.action yesterday, is far bigger than Jeremy Clarkson.
:05:02. > :05:04.
:05:04. > :05:08.He likes us to be talking about his latest contribution to public life.
:05:08. > :05:13.This is the latest in a series of, you know, offensive, unpleasant
:05:13. > :05:17.things from what seems to me to be a fairly unpleasant individual. One
:05:17. > :05:21.thing that I do not understand is, what is the big deal with Jeremy
:05:21. > :05:28.Clarkson? Where is the talent? Could someone else not do what he
:05:28. > :05:34.does? I do not see what he adds. What does he had? Why do the BBC
:05:34. > :05:37.seem to think that he has this amazing person? Because he has huge
:05:37. > :05:41.audiences and we have had more questions about this than any other
:05:41. > :05:47.subject. It must be something. not sure that is a determinant as
:05:47. > :05:53.to whether somebody has talent. Well, his lawyers can write to you
:05:53. > :05:57.themselves. I disagree. I am a fan of Jeremy Clarkson. I would say
:05:57. > :06:01.that he does his bit, he generates public support by saying
:06:01. > :06:07.controversial things. These controversial things obviously get
:06:07. > :06:12.discussed, so he is doing his job completely. He says these things
:06:12. > :06:16.just to annoy people, and he does his job well. But what is the point
:06:16. > :06:20.in that? What is the point in just a needlessly annoying and defending
:06:20. > :06:23.lots of people? If he had a heart attack tomorrow, the paramedic who
:06:23. > :06:28.would be picking him up in the ambulance is somebody who would be
:06:28. > :06:31.the subject of the satire he was engaging in. When he arrives in the
:06:31. > :06:34.hospital, the same would apply to the people wheeling him into the
:06:34. > :06:44.operating theatre. What is the point in annoying people in that
:06:44. > :06:45.
:06:46. > :06:55.way you actually help society keep I think it is 50-50. Half of the
:06:55. > :06:58.population, he affirms. The Bath lock him. But -- defends them.
:06:58. > :07:03.wish I could say that I have never said anything foolish on television
:07:03. > :07:11.but I cannot. Because I cannot, I will be careful about condemning
:07:11. > :07:18.others who do. I am in your country so I do not want to meddle. You are
:07:18. > :07:23.here to medal! This industrial action that was launched yesterday
:07:23. > :07:28.has been described as not the first, more are to come. In the whole
:07:28. > :07:32.world, we are going to pass through a difficult economic times. The
:07:32. > :07:35.unleashing of this kind of strike at a time when sacrifices are going
:07:35. > :07:39.to be called on from every industrial country, depending on
:07:39. > :07:43.the decisions that are made on the Continent. Tough times are ahead
:07:43. > :07:49.that Britain and the United States did not self-inflicted. But what
:07:49. > :07:52.about the joke, was it just bad taste? People are going to say
:07:52. > :07:55.foolish things and I am going to focus on trying to make sure that I
:07:55. > :08:01.make as few foolish comments as possible, rather than being a
:08:01. > :08:05.negative review on the foolish comments of others. The woman with
:08:05. > :08:09.black hair and then you in a striped T-shirt. I agree that we
:08:09. > :08:13.should be talking about something else. Jeremy Clarkson is the Lady
:08:13. > :08:17.Gaga and Katie Price of the motoring world and he is building
:08:17. > :08:20.his brand in the way that he does and his programme in life itself.
:08:20. > :08:24.We should focus not on the stupidity of his comment, which he
:08:24. > :08:27.did not issue a heartfelt apology for, but what is going on in the
:08:27. > :08:37.world, the economy, the teachers and nursing assistants and everyone
:08:37. > :08:46.Do you not think it is a massive over-reaction to something that was
:08:46. > :08:51.said on the BBC? It is equally inappropriate for the deputy leader
:08:51. > :08:58.of Unison macro to compare him to Gaddafi. Unless it is their
:08:58. > :09:02.hairstyle. I think Clarkson has embarrassed
:09:02. > :09:08.himself enough and he should just drive off and be forgotten. He has
:09:08. > :09:17.gone to China so he will not be heard of Rideh or two. Let's go on
:09:17. > :09:24.to the stuff in hand. -- for a day or two. Were the strikes justified?
:09:24. > :09:27.I knew you were going to come to me first. I could not support the
:09:27. > :09:30.action because I cannot support the disruption that it is going to
:09:30. > :09:35.cause and it did cause to lots of people I represent in my
:09:35. > :09:39.constituency. There were lots of parents who had to take the day off
:09:39. > :09:43.work. But let me say this. I have lots of close family and friends
:09:43. > :09:46.who took industrial action and I completely can understand where
:09:47. > :09:51.they are coming from, which is why I do not condemn them for doing
:09:51. > :09:55.what they did. It is not a decision that you take likely, to go on
:09:55. > :10:00.strike. There were a huge number of people who went on strike for the
:10:00. > :10:04.first time ever. And we have to ask why. What was it that caused them
:10:04. > :10:08.to feel they had no option but to do this? And what caused them to
:10:08. > :10:12.feel they had no option but to do this was a Government, if you like,
:10:12. > :10:16.seeking to adopt a divide and rule strategy in relation to a society
:10:16. > :10:20.they are supposed to be holding together, sitting up public against
:10:20. > :10:24.private sector workers, which is disgraceful. -- setting them up.
:10:24. > :10:29.And doing so in the context of saying that we have to reform our
:10:29. > :10:32.pension system. We do. Most people will accept that we are probably
:10:32. > :10:36.going to have to accept -- probably going to have to work for longer
:10:36. > :10:40.and contribute more. The problem is that the 3% surcharge that the
:10:40. > :10:43.public sector workers have been asked to contribute are not going
:10:43. > :10:46.into different public sector pension schemes. It is going to
:10:46. > :10:56.reduce the deficit and pay for the failure of the Government to sort
:10:56. > :11:00.
:11:00. > :11:07.On your personal position, you are a trade union member. Yes. Did you
:11:07. > :11:10.vote? No, I did not. You abstained. I will tell you why, because our
:11:10. > :11:14.pensions are not affected by it. That is why I would not have
:11:14. > :11:20.participated, because I am not impacted upon by the changes that
:11:21. > :11:27.are proposed. I do not think that means that one cannot understand
:11:27. > :11:30.where others were coming from. is it loyal to say about a strike
:11:30. > :11:34.by two unions of which you are remember that you disagree with
:11:34. > :11:40.them and you think they were wrong in your position? I have explained
:11:40. > :11:44.my position. I do not support the disruption to my constituents.
:11:44. > :11:48.I congratulate him on clearly being against the strike, because I was
:11:48. > :11:54.not clear whether Ed Miliband was supporting it or not. He seemed to
:11:54. > :11:59.be supporting it. I also congratulate Chuka on at -- on
:11:59. > :12:05.actually saying that we have to reform pensions. I have not heard
:12:05. > :12:10.any proposal from anybody else yet about quite how we do that. It will
:12:10. > :12:13.affect MPs. The MP's salary scheme is unsustainable. It has not been
:12:14. > :12:21.negotiated in the same way. We will have to bring it in line, so it
:12:21. > :12:25.will affect MPs. But getting onto the main point, I understand that
:12:25. > :12:29.everybody in the public sector is completely cheesed off with the
:12:29. > :12:33.situation we are in. They have pay freezes and their pensions having
:12:33. > :12:37.to be changed, so their future expectations change. Most people in
:12:37. > :12:43.the country, including private sector people, are having to adjust
:12:43. > :12:47.to the very serious consequences of the financial crisis that we are in.
:12:47. > :12:53.We all know that the present public sector pensions are unsustainable.
:12:53. > :12:58.This should have been done 20 years ago. The Bill is racing up for our
:12:58. > :13:02.children and grandchildren. It does have to be addressed. And what is
:13:02. > :13:08.immediately being done is a very good scheme has been produced by
:13:08. > :13:11.the former Labour pensions minister, which, to my amazement, has kept a
:13:11. > :13:19.final-salary scheme in place, but a less generous one. You will have to
:13:19. > :13:23.work for longer. It is not. It is a career average scheme. Well, it is
:13:23. > :13:27.a salary-based scheme, much better than anybody would have expected
:13:27. > :13:32.him to recommend, much better than anything outside. Why did you not
:13:32. > :13:37.do anything about this when you were Chancellor? You said it should
:13:37. > :13:42.have been dealt with ages ago. the time, we assumed these pensions
:13:42. > :13:44.could be sustained. Most of the private sector had them. Most of
:13:44. > :13:48.the big private sector companies got rid of them about 10 years ago
:13:48. > :13:53.when it became obvious that these obligations were piling up.
:13:53. > :13:57.thought it would be all right. were not alerted to the problem. I
:13:57. > :14:01.was getting out of a recession but not as bad as this one. It should
:14:01. > :14:05.have been sorted out. Now they have had a day on strike, let's
:14:05. > :14:09.negotiate the details, scheme by scheme. We are getting the balance
:14:09. > :14:13.right between the taxpayer, paying for mounting deficits, and the
:14:13. > :14:16.members, paying for what they are going to get. And they are meant to
:14:16. > :14:18.be fair to everybody. The numbers are going to have to pay more
:14:18. > :14:28.because they are getting better pensions than the average member of
:14:28. > :14:34.
:14:34. > :14:38.the population. The taxpayer has to No general secretary of any union
:14:38. > :14:43.will lead their members on strike unless there is a good cause. My
:14:43. > :14:48.union has not taken national strike action before this dispute in 127
:14:48. > :14:53.years. We do not lose our temper easily and throw our toys out of
:14:53. > :14:58.the pram. This is a real and serious issue. Let me just say that
:14:58. > :15:04.we have done everything in our power to get the Government to
:15:04. > :15:08.listen. 120,000 teachers have signed a petition. We lobbied
:15:08. > :15:12.Parliament in October, every MP was lobbied, thousands of teachers
:15:12. > :15:18.lobbied MPs. We have written to our MPs, we have done everything
:15:18. > :15:21.possible to get our point across. Ken Clarke says public sector
:15:22. > :15:25.pensions are unsustainable. Let's be clear, the National Audit Office
:15:25. > :15:33.said that the highest cost for public sector pensions will be next
:15:33. > :15:38.year. And that from that time, they will be declining from 1.9% to 1.4%.
:15:38. > :15:46.That is for a host of reasons, not least of which the new deal which
:15:46. > :15:49.we negotiated in 2007. Under that deal, if there were greater costs
:15:49. > :15:55.for living longer, the employees would pay for them, not the
:15:55. > :15:58.employer. So, we negotiated all of that, and that is part of the
:15:58. > :16:05.decline in public sector pensions. Of course, we are prepared to
:16:05. > :16:09.negotiate a deal. But negotiating with this government is like trying
:16:09. > :16:17.to do it in the dark. It took them until the 2nd November to come up
:16:17. > :16:22.with a proposal. They then said... But why are you prepared to
:16:22. > :16:28.negotiate if you say you did all of this in 2007 and there was no
:16:28. > :16:36.problem? If they show us the sums on longevity, we will negotiate.
:16:36. > :16:43.But you said there is no reason. union, if given the argument, would
:16:43. > :16:52.not be prepared to negotiate. Before the Hutton report, they're
:16:52. > :16:56.introducing a pension tax, taking 15% off the value of pensions, and
:16:56. > :17:02.then they say, we're going to introduce a reference scheme. We
:17:02. > :17:07.have not been able to negotiate, and nobody wanted the strike. My
:17:07. > :17:16.members are teachers and lecturers. The last place they want to be is
:17:17. > :17:24.on strike. I must have let Ken Clarke answer that point. Can you
:17:24. > :17:28.stick to the point about the money and what Mary Bousted said about
:17:28. > :17:34.all of this having been decided before. This is largely based on
:17:34. > :17:39.figures which it was assumed that the Government had put in place. As
:17:39. > :17:43.I said before, it is also how you share the cost. At the moment,
:17:43. > :17:48.we're trying to get down public expenditure. And the burden is
:17:48. > :17:54.shifting steadily to the general taxpayer, and they are really
:17:54. > :17:59.putting ever more in each year, even after the 2007 deal, and the
:17:59. > :18:02.members are trying to stay with their present contribution.
:18:02. > :18:06.you're not putting it into the scheme, it is going back into the
:18:06. > :18:11.general pot. The burden of maintaining the scheme, which is
:18:11. > :18:16.going to be going up by �7 billion over the next five years, if we do
:18:16. > :18:21.not do anything, is to be shared more by the members, than it to
:18:21. > :18:26.keep falling on the taxpayer. It is because of longevity that the whole
:18:26. > :18:30.thing is going to be more expensive. We're making sure that the
:18:30. > :18:37.unfairness, as well as the un sustainability, is actually
:18:37. > :18:47.addressed. We have been trying to make it all party. We have got a
:18:47. > :18:47.
:18:47. > :18:50.Labour minister in. You do not believe nothing needs to be done...
:18:50. > :18:54.The point is that there will have to be give and take on both sides,
:18:54. > :19:00.but for that, there has to be a negotiation. Ministers have not sat
:19:00. > :19:08.down in a room with... You think there is a problem? Of course,
:19:08. > :19:16.that's why there needs to be negotiation. When did you last sit
:19:16. > :19:20.down? I have said, if there is a problem, show us the sums, and we
:19:20. > :19:24.will negotiate. We have not been able to do that. One more point
:19:25. > :19:30.from you, then we must go to the audience. Is the problem nothing
:19:30. > :19:34.like as big as the Government is claiming? In my view, we obviously
:19:34. > :19:40.need to look at the sustainability of pensions going forward, but you
:19:40. > :19:45.have got to have a discussion about it. So, there is a problem? There
:19:45. > :19:51.is an issue that needs to be resolved, yes. We have heard about
:19:51. > :19:54.this for such a long time, why are we only seeing it now? Secondly, we
:19:54. > :20:00.know that the public sector are striking, but the private sector
:20:00. > :20:03.are not. We need to think about the success of the economy. Going back
:20:04. > :20:08.to the question about whether or not it is justified, I completely
:20:08. > :20:13.understand why those in the public sector are feeling a bit hat. Apart
:20:13. > :20:19.from the fact that promises and contracts were made, I get that. On
:20:19. > :20:24.the other hand, I think there is not enough money. And sometimes in
:20:24. > :20:27.life, you just get faced with decisions which are not just right
:20:27. > :20:30.decisions which are not just right or wrong, they are, what is the
:20:30. > :20:40.deciding factor? And here, the deciding factor is, there is not
:20:40. > :20:40.
:20:40. > :20:44.enough money. Really, it is not what we want, it is not how we feel.
:20:44. > :20:50.Of course we want our nurses and teachers, of course we want them to
:20:50. > :20:56.be well paid and live well in their retirement. But there is not enough
:20:56. > :21:01.money. You're going to tell me there is, because, as a percentage
:21:01. > :21:07.of GDP going forward... Trust me, in the time that we are talking, we
:21:07. > :21:10.have no idea, we are in very uncharted territory, we have to
:21:10. > :21:14.protect our position. And we cannot make contracts that at some point
:21:14. > :21:19.in the future we are going to really regret, because we're going
:21:19. > :21:29.to burden the young people of today with those contracts, paying for
:21:29. > :21:34.them, when it is all long gone. sir. There is always taxes, Deborah.
:21:34. > :21:37.One thing which has not been mentioned so far is the increasing
:21:37. > :21:42.contributions, and the threat that will pose to the viability of the
:21:42. > :21:52.scheme, with disastrous consequences. You think taxes
:21:52. > :21:52.
:21:52. > :22:01.should go up to pay for it? That would be my view. I thought the
:22:01. > :22:07.second last questioner put it very well. People have been exposed to
:22:07. > :22:10.the severest economic shock since the Great Depression. There is no-
:22:11. > :22:15.one to strike against. You dealing with huge, imponderable global
:22:15. > :22:19.forces. If you say, not only is that person going to be out of work,
:22:19. > :22:22.not only is that business going to close, not only do they face a
:22:22. > :22:28.higher taxes which will be coming everywhere in the future, but in
:22:28. > :22:33.addition to that, that there is to be a sector of the society which is
:22:33. > :22:39.going to be held harmless, while the society which pays the bills is
:22:39. > :22:44.contracted, that's not very reasonable. It is not just about
:22:44. > :22:49.the cost on future generations, it is the fact that they are staff in
:22:49. > :22:53.our services in order to pay for pensions. You have towns in
:22:53. > :22:57.California where, in order to pay the pensions for the Retired
:22:57. > :23:07.firefighters and nurses, they are laying off present-day firefighters
:23:07. > :23:10.
:23:10. > :23:15.and nurses. The past is devouring the future, and this cannot be.
:23:15. > :23:19.There were several objectionable things in that answer. One of them
:23:19. > :23:24.was the wealth creation. We were told going on strike, we were
:23:24. > :23:29.losing �500 million. Public sector workers create wealth. I did not
:23:29. > :23:35.use that phrase. You did. Also, it is dangerous jobs and jobs which
:23:35. > :23:42.many people do not want to do. You're right, the Chartered
:23:42. > :23:47.Institute for Personnel Development have said that it would take a 20%
:23:47. > :23:53.opt-out for that deficit to be lost. Low-paid workers will opt out of
:23:53. > :24:01.their pensions. New teachers starting in 2015, with 9% of their
:24:01. > :24:04.wages going to pay off their other debt, and another 9% for pensions,
:24:04. > :24:11.80% of their salary before you even begin, what you think they will do?
:24:11. > :24:14.They will opt out. If they do so, this country will have people who
:24:14. > :24:20.will be relying on nothing other than means-tested benefits in their
:24:20. > :24:28.old age. The gentleman says, higher taxes, is that what you would like
:24:28. > :24:32.to see? Yes, there is a range of things which can be done. Should
:24:32. > :24:38.the taxpayer pay for it? taxpayer pays for private sector
:24:38. > :24:42.pensions. �37 billion in 2000 and they spent on private sector
:24:42. > :24:48.pensions, in tax relief, which was �12 billion more than was spent on
:24:48. > :24:53.public sector pensions. completely agree with you, I really
:24:53. > :24:58.do not like this division between public and private. The private
:24:58. > :25:02.sector cannot survive without the public sector. And the other way
:25:03. > :25:07.around. Absolutely, we are completely in this together.
:25:07. > :25:12.Actually, I have been publicly on record to say, I agree with
:25:12. > :25:16.taxation. What I worry about is, I do not mind handing my money over,
:25:16. > :25:20.providing I am happy with what is done with it. However, Thaksin is
:25:20. > :25:24.not always the answer, because there is one answer to this, and it
:25:24. > :25:29.is economic growth. Because if we had economic growth, we would not
:25:29. > :25:35.be having this debate. So, what we cannot possibly contemplate is a
:25:35. > :25:39.taxation system which hinders economic growth. Let me bring in a
:25:39. > :25:45.number of people in the audience. Just with your comments, if you
:25:45. > :25:48.would, because we have got a lot to talk about. I'm pleased to hear a
:25:48. > :25:52.slight change in rhetoric from the panel, and that there should be no
:25:52. > :25:57.division between public and private. Let's also acknowledged public
:25:57. > :26:04.service workers, of which I am one, and I was on strike yesterday, we
:26:04. > :26:10.are taxpayers, let's not forget that. And you, sir, with the
:26:10. > :26:13.spectacles. If a deal looks too good to be true, it probably is.
:26:13. > :26:18.Equitable Life went bust, the public sector pension scheme is
:26:18. > :26:26.bust. Private sector taxpayers are bussed enough already, give us our
:26:26. > :26:31.money back. The woman in the second row. I wanted to congratulate and
:26:31. > :26:38.thank everyone who went on strike for exercising their rights to
:26:38. > :26:46.protest. To protest against this horrible government, which was not
:26:46. > :26:52.elected, and we should not forget that. Rather than encouraging
:26:52. > :26:56.divisiveness in the population, senior politicians should be clear
:26:56. > :27:02.about conditions of work and the dangers involved in certain jobs,
:27:02. > :27:07.and not be simplistic and divisive about it. You think the argument is
:27:07. > :27:15.over-simplified? Over-simplified, divisive, and putting the public
:27:15. > :27:21.and private sector against each other. As Deborah Meaden, a
:27:21. > :27:29.beautiful, successful woman rightly says, there is not enough money,
:27:29. > :27:35.would she care to lend us some? don't know whether this is so, but
:27:35. > :27:41.you have already lent �1.6 million to 26 different organisations.
:27:41. > :27:46.than �2 million. How much have you made back? It is not that simple,
:27:46. > :27:51.because these are ongoing businesses, but they are great
:27:51. > :27:57.success stories, they make money, and they make me feel good. I
:27:57. > :28:02.avoided the question nicely, didn't I? We will come back to it! At
:28:02. > :28:12.I? We will come back to it! At first, if you're tweeting, our hash
:28:12. > :28:25.
:28:25. > :28:28.The next question, from Amish Patel. Has George Osborne's economic plan
:28:28. > :28:35.failed? Has it succeeded, perhaps, failed? Has it succeeded, perhaps,
:28:35. > :28:37.is another way of looking at it? think we are one of the very few
:28:37. > :28:42.governments the monks Western democracies which has actually got
:28:42. > :28:52.a plan, and one which is still carrying confident. It is shown by
:28:52. > :28:54.
:28:54. > :28:58.the fact that we have got such a low interest rates. If you started
:28:58. > :29:04.putting up taxes to pay for public sector pensions, you wait and see
:29:04. > :29:09.how long public confidence would last if you started doing that.
:29:09. > :29:13.is it a plan which is succeeding? If people look at the Western
:29:13. > :29:18.economies, we probably have had one of the deepest recessions. We have
:29:18. > :29:21.a deficit on Greek proportions, we have a mounting stock of debt, we
:29:21. > :29:26.are in an identical situation with a great number of European
:29:26. > :29:30.countries. We had a government which just borrowed during the boom
:29:30. > :29:34.times on the basis that it was easy money, and we now have a staggering
:29:34. > :29:39.level of debt. This is one of the few countries where the outside
:29:39. > :29:44.world generally believes we have a government, we have institutions,
:29:44. > :29:48.we have a society which is capable of sorting this out. We do have a
:29:48. > :29:53.plan. We are remaining in control of events. We now have to respond
:29:53. > :29:57.to events, which have worsened in the world, because commodity prices
:29:57. > :30:02.have soared, and because the sovereign debt crisis is casting an
:30:02. > :30:06.immense shadow, and we are responding, and we do have a plan,
:30:06. > :30:10.the plan is to stick where we are, and to get on top of the problem,
:30:10. > :30:15.which is debt and deficit. You need a tough government at a time like
:30:15. > :30:17.this. You have to ask for some of the sacrifices which we are asking
:30:17. > :30:21.of public sector workers. You look around the rest of the Western
:30:21. > :30:25.democracies, and, with the greatest of respect, and several have
:30:25. > :30:31.already fallen, they are bobbing in the water. That's what's worrying
:30:31. > :30:38.everybody, they cannot cope with it. We must deliver this, and it is
:30:38. > :30:44.going to take a few years to get back to normality. But if you had a
:30:44. > :30:47.change, a government which said, a bit tough fiscal easing is what is
:30:47. > :30:57.required... I don't think Ed Balls believes what he is saying, because
:30:57. > :30:58.
:30:58. > :31:01.he knows he will not be in Ed Balls said, we're going to cut
:31:02. > :31:06.taxes to boost consumption and we're going to borrow a bit more.
:31:06. > :31:09.It is getting awkward so we are going to make ourselves popular by
:31:09. > :31:13.borrowing from foreigners. I don't know what interest rate he things
:31:13. > :31:16.we would be paying in order to get that money, but it would look like
:31:16. > :31:24.the kind of interest rate the Italians are paying and the Greeks
:31:24. > :31:29.are paying, and that really would put us in the mire. How many people
:31:29. > :31:35.in your constituency, according to the latest figures, Ards GSA
:31:35. > :31:44.claimants? -- JSA claimants. It is quite low, below the national
:31:44. > :31:50.average. How many? I do not know the exact number. 1287 people are
:31:50. > :31:55.claiming that in your constituency, up by well over 10%. In this
:31:55. > :31:59.constituency here, long-term youth unemployment has risen by 50%. In
:31:59. > :32:04.your constituency, five people are chasing every vacancy. In mind, 20
:32:04. > :32:07.people are chasing every vacancy. Are you seriously looking at all of
:32:07. > :32:17.these people in his audience and all of our constituents and saying,
:32:17. > :32:23.
:32:23. > :32:26.everything is fine, the plan is I am not saying everything is fine.
:32:26. > :32:30.The Governor of the Bank of England has come out with remarks today
:32:30. > :32:35.which I agree with. Of course I am not saying everything is fine. If
:32:35. > :32:40.everything was fine, I would be trying to do... But you are
:32:40. > :32:45.saying... It is caused by deficit, by global crisis, commodity price
:32:45. > :32:49.inflation. That -- the problem we have at the moment is that we have
:32:49. > :32:53.not had any growth. Since the Comprehensive Spending Review your
:32:53. > :32:58.Government announced at this time last year, confidence fell, demand
:32:58. > :33:03.plummeted and we have had, what? Growth revised down for this year
:33:03. > :33:08.to 0.9% and 2.6 million people out of work. And the problem is that
:33:08. > :33:14.you do not get growth, you cannot reduce your borrowing. 2.6 million
:33:14. > :33:20.people we are paying benefit to and who are not paying income tax.
:33:20. > :33:27.is your solution? Of course we need growth, that is a platitude. It is
:33:27. > :33:33.a fact and we have not had it. question is of how you get growth.
:33:33. > :33:37.As we said, there are a range of measures. How do they compare with
:33:37. > :33:41.what has been described as the problem, will prices, inflation,
:33:41. > :33:45.the American economy and the other things. Do not go through them,
:33:45. > :33:51.because we have heard, but how do they rate? They are based on
:33:51. > :33:56.borrowing more money. We will not take a lecture on borrowing from
:33:56. > :34:05.you. I will not take a lecture on borrowing from you. You left the
:34:05. > :34:08.borrowing behind. In a Thermos, -- in fairness, I think when you
:34:08. > :34:13.ceased being Chancellor of the Exchequer, how debt as a percentage
:34:13. > :34:19.of GDP was 46%. Before the global financial crisis, it had come down
:34:19. > :34:27.by about 6%. The It was falling like a stone for the first three
:34:27. > :34:30.years. Your record is not necessarily a beautiful one.
:34:30. > :34:37.record is getting better growth with low inflation and stable
:34:37. > :34:40.finances. Where is the growth? 1997, the economy was growing and
:34:40. > :34:44.we were becoming one of the strongest in the Western world. And
:34:44. > :34:47.then a man called Gordon Brown took over. He stuck to my figures for
:34:47. > :34:51.three years and after that he behaved recklessly and
:34:51. > :34:55.incompetently. This is becoming a Joule and we have three other
:34:55. > :34:58.members. What do you say to the argument about interest rates going
:34:58. > :35:03.up if you borrow and that would be devastating, George Osborne's
:35:03. > :35:10.position and the coalition's position? You are prepared to risk
:35:10. > :35:14.that? There is the base rate, and the Bank of England base rate is
:35:14. > :35:16.lower at the moment because we have not had growth. In terms of
:35:16. > :35:19.financing government borrowing, everybody knows that the reason we
:35:19. > :35:23.are in a different position from other countries on the Continent is
:35:23. > :35:28.that we have the ability to set monetary policy. Historically,
:35:28. > :35:33.therefore, we have had lower interest rates. So you do not see
:35:33. > :35:38.it as a problem? What do you mean? If you borrowed money, interest
:35:38. > :35:42.rates would rise and we would be likely to leave. If you look at the
:35:42. > :35:45.countries in the eurozone area which have had problems, the term
:35:45. > :35:51.payment on our debt is longer and we can set our own interest rates
:35:51. > :35:56.and the markets take that into account. I completely agree with
:35:56. > :35:59.Ken Clarke because that is the way it works. The truth is, if other
:36:00. > :36:04.countries lose confidence in us, we pay more money and it is as simple
:36:04. > :36:08.as that. I think the Government have got things wrong, but they
:36:08. > :36:13.have got one thing right, and that is sticking with Plan A, but with
:36:13. > :36:17.imagination. Because it is a very unimaginative plan. I think it is
:36:17. > :36:21.like running a business, but just a lot bigger and the output is
:36:21. > :36:25.slightly different. In difficult times, what tends to happen is we
:36:25. > :36:29.close down and think, I cannot spend any more money. I think we
:36:29. > :36:33.have done that. What I would like to see now is a bit of imagination
:36:33. > :36:37.about how we are going to get out of it, because that is the sense
:36:37. > :36:42.that I do not get. I get that we are going to stop spending, we are
:36:42. > :36:47.going to cut and reduce, but no imagination. What do you call
:36:47. > :36:50.imagination? I talk about business, unsurprisingly. It is very
:36:50. > :36:53.difficult at the moment to do business, to borrow money. The
:36:53. > :36:57.Government has done something about that but within the current
:36:57. > :37:01.confines. We look to the banking system and the banks and we try to
:37:01. > :37:04.stimulate them. There are fantastic things going on - crowd funding.
:37:04. > :37:09.People are saying, I am going to take the bank's art of the picture
:37:09. > :37:14.and I want to lend that person money. -- out of the picture. That
:37:14. > :37:17.is imaginative, getting cash into the system quickly. And he gets
:37:17. > :37:20.people like me, who know how to help businesses, lending to
:37:21. > :37:24.businesses that need cash and help. I think the Government should spend
:37:24. > :37:34.more time looking at more imaginative ways of stimulating the
:37:34. > :37:36.
:37:36. > :37:39.economy, not just... The man with the spectacles. As an ex Chancellor,
:37:39. > :37:43.I think you need to concede that the low borrowing costs, of course
:37:43. > :37:46.while we need a credible deficit reduction plan, the low borrowing
:37:46. > :37:51.costs are due to poor prospects for economic growth for this country
:37:51. > :38:01.for years to come. George Osborne is like a medieval Dr bleeding this
:38:01. > :38:05.
:38:06. > :38:08.country, and when he sees it is not Going back, I am a member of the
:38:09. > :38:15.Youth Parliament for this area and I represent the young people of
:38:15. > :38:22.this area. Not only have they been discouraged to go to university,
:38:22. > :38:26.but how can the economy grow when there is no confidence at all?
:38:26. > :38:31.issue about the triple-A credit rating is that it is likely to be
:38:32. > :38:36.imperilled if our borrowing requirement goes above a certain
:38:36. > :38:41.level. If tax receipts carry on being so low because so many people
:38:41. > :38:46.are not in work - and remember, another 310,000 public sector
:38:46. > :38:50.workers will be put out of work - if you put people out of work, or
:38:50. > :38:53.into low-paid work, the tax receipts go down and you have to
:38:53. > :38:57.increase your borrowing requirement which will in peril your triple-A
:38:57. > :39:00.rating. Do not tell me this is a really good idea and we are keeping
:39:00. > :39:04.the triple-A rating because we are doing these difficult measures. As
:39:04. > :39:12.you said, this medicine, you bleed the patient until there is no more
:39:12. > :39:16.blood left and then they are dead. America lost its triple-A rating in
:39:16. > :39:20.the summer. I think you need to lift the level of the camera. In
:39:20. > :39:24.2008, the US elected a left-of- centre government that tried the
:39:24. > :39:27.stimulative response and we are also having no economic growth.
:39:27. > :39:31.Britain has done the opposite course and is getting the same
:39:31. > :39:37.result. You do not have a British problem, we do not have an American
:39:37. > :39:44.problem. This is a global problem. The question was, his George
:39:44. > :39:47.Osborne's plan obsolete? Have a lot of respect for George Osborne. But
:39:47. > :39:51.if this euro crisis continues to unravel, everybody's plans are
:39:51. > :39:54.going to be obsolete because we are about to be confronted with the
:39:54. > :40:01.second shock in a double shock that is the worst shock to the global
:40:01. > :40:04.economy since the 1930s. When people are suffering in a
:40:04. > :40:07.particular locality, and people are suffering a lot in Britain, as they
:40:07. > :40:14.are in the United States, it is hard to understand that it is not
:40:14. > :40:17.just happening to you but is happening worldwide. We have had
:40:17. > :40:21.this extraordinary accumulation of indebtedness. It will express
:40:21. > :40:24.itself in different ways and in different places, but it is the one
:40:24. > :40:30.common global problem and it is now going to have what may be the worst
:40:30. > :40:34.shock of all yet. That is why things like this strike are so
:40:34. > :40:38.misplaced, because you're not going to be able to escape this gathering
:40:38. > :40:44.global crisis by saying, we are going to take this sector, however
:40:44. > :40:52.worthy and important, and they will be fenced off from this flood.
:40:52. > :40:56.Everyone is going to... We need concerted global action, concerted
:40:56. > :41:00.global anti-inflation. Right now, the scene is not Westminster, not
:41:00. > :41:03.in Washington, but the Continent of Europe. So there is nothing
:41:03. > :41:08.Washington and Westminster can do except watch what happens in
:41:08. > :41:12.Europe? Up we have a right to make our voices heard. Good and bad
:41:12. > :41:16.decisions on the Continent of Europe have an impact on all of us.
:41:16. > :41:19.In this incredible alliance that we have, we have these institutions
:41:19. > :41:24.that bring finance ministers and heads of government together and
:41:24. > :41:27.they are supposed to talk and co- ordinate. We all need to be saying
:41:27. > :41:32.to the people on the Continent, the Euro was not a good idea to start
:41:32. > :41:36.with but allowing it to collapse would be a worse idea. Are you
:41:36. > :41:39.saying that the arguments between Labour and the coalition Government
:41:39. > :41:44.in this country are really, in effect, irrelevant because the
:41:44. > :41:48.problem is much bigger than the things they talk about? If your
:41:48. > :41:54.election had gone in a different way, I think he would be having the
:41:55. > :42:00.same arguments with the opposite people saying the opposite lines.
:42:00. > :42:04.There are various different ways it could have gone. I would just say
:42:04. > :42:07.one thing of the back of what David has said. It is not correct to say
:42:07. > :42:11.that everyone has been in the same boat. Our economy is growing slower
:42:11. > :42:17.than any other economy in the G7, apart from Japan, which had an
:42:17. > :42:23.earthquake. Your economy grew 1.5% in the last 12 months, hours only
:42:23. > :42:26.grew by 0.5%. I agree that the eurozone is a big issue, but do you
:42:26. > :42:30.provide foundations with which you can withstand the storm, or do you
:42:30. > :42:33.tear them out, leaving us defenceless, which is what our
:42:33. > :42:39.Government has done? That is why there is such a debate going on
:42:39. > :42:46.right here. Are the coalition missing an opportunity for
:42:46. > :42:49.imaginative growth by ditching the Green economy?
:42:49. > :42:53.If there is anything we can say with certainty over the last few
:42:53. > :42:58.years in terms of economic plans, it is that the people who say that
:42:58. > :43:02.they know do not actually know. Really, the whole point is that,
:43:02. > :43:05.why not get people who know what they're talking about, people like
:43:05. > :43:10.Deborah Meaden, who have made money, to help with economic plans,
:43:10. > :43:18.because this is the blind leading the blind? The economists do not
:43:18. > :43:26.know, but Deborah Meaden does? has made money. We are taking some
:43:26. > :43:30.of her advice. You have never asked me for any advice! I take your
:43:30. > :43:33.advice, I am doing something to help business. It is not as popular
:43:33. > :43:36.as putting up taxes to keep pensions in tax but is a sensible
:43:36. > :43:43.way of building foundations for future growth, which requires
:43:43. > :43:49.stability first and a freedom from debt to really take off. The UK are
:43:49. > :43:54.missing a big opportunity in Africa, because China are going in. They
:43:54. > :43:59.are going into a different situation, bartering. They have
:43:59. > :44:03.offered Nigeria 5 billion for three oil plants. They are also putting
:44:03. > :44:06.in infrastructure, which the UK are brilliant at putting in
:44:06. > :44:13.infrastructure, better than the Chinese material that comes out.
:44:13. > :44:18.The one thing that England are truly missing is Africa. Africa has
:44:18. > :44:24.a 100 billion export industry. you are not talking about the aid
:44:24. > :44:29.which the government is hitting its targets on? Despite that, it is
:44:29. > :44:33.infrastructure that Africa is missing. These are dark days this
:44:33. > :44:43.week, after the Autumn Statement. Inevitably, the questions are about
:44:43. > :44:47.the economy and jobs. Why do British teenagers find it so
:44:47. > :44:57.difficult to find jobs when eastern Europeans seem to be quite able to
:44:57. > :45:05.
:45:05. > :45:09.Deborah Meaden... I'm so glad you asked this question, this is a real
:45:09. > :45:13.issue for me. I think that in the UK we made a decision quite a while
:45:13. > :45:17.ago to become a very service- oriented country. We were happy to
:45:17. > :45:21.give up our manufacturing base and we talk to our children, the whole
:45:21. > :45:25.school curriculum, it was all about, academia, go to university, and if
:45:25. > :45:29.you don't, just get yourself a job in manufacturing or something like
:45:29. > :45:35.that. We have been letting our young people down, so that reaching
:45:35. > :45:39.the moment where they're actually going to choose jobs, they are
:45:39. > :45:47.not... The jobs that they have been educated for, they're just not
:45:47. > :45:51.there. It is not good enough. I hear a lot of really good stuff
:45:51. > :45:54.from the Government, I have to be honest. I think the appendage game
:45:54. > :45:59.and all of those things are fantastic, but they tackle it at
:45:59. > :46:04.the wrong end. -- the apprenticeship scheme. Because at
:46:04. > :46:09.16, these young people are thinking, if I cannot go to university, I am
:46:09. > :46:15.a failure. How come people from the EU are taking 90% of the new jobs
:46:15. > :46:20.which were created last year, for instance? I don't know what they
:46:20. > :46:24.are trained for. But if it is in manufacturing, that is exactly what
:46:24. > :46:29.I'm talking about, because our young people do not think
:46:29. > :46:32.manufacturing is a credible job. How important is manufacturing?
:46:32. > :46:37.They do not get to learn in school, they do not get to make things in
:46:37. > :46:41.school, or do things with their hands. And if they do do those
:46:41. > :46:44.things, it is not valued, because the value is all placed on academia.
:46:44. > :46:50.We have got to correct that, because we have made promises to
:46:50. > :46:53.them which we're completely failing on. We are in Dagenham, maybe we
:46:53. > :47:00.will hear something about employment here. What do you say,
:47:00. > :47:04.as a member of the teachers' union, about this, Mary Bousted?
:47:04. > :47:09.completely agree with Deborah Meaden, we have had an academic
:47:09. > :47:11.curriculum for far too long. Successive governments have said
:47:11. > :47:16.that the curriculum is about academic subjects and reading and
:47:16. > :47:24.writing. Of course, those are important, but we have completely
:47:24. > :47:30.downgraded other things. That means making things, and the practical
:47:30. > :47:32.application of theoretical subjects. You learn a lot about the practical
:47:32. > :47:36.application of maths and science through actually doing thing. I
:47:36. > :47:39.have to say, this government is revising the national curriculum,
:47:39. > :47:43.and we're going to end up with a much more academic, theoretical
:47:43. > :47:47.curriculum. The Government has actually said, the new curriculum
:47:47. > :47:51.should not include skills, because skills just happened. They have,
:47:51. > :47:54.they have said that, I have spoken to the Secretary of State about the
:47:54. > :48:00.new curriculum. It is clear that you do not include skills, skills
:48:00. > :48:04.just happen. We have done that for far too long. We have to educate
:48:04. > :48:08.our young people. Even the most able academic young people need
:48:09. > :48:18.experience in making and doing. We need a broad curriculum for all.
:48:19. > :48:19.
:48:19. > :48:23.And we have not had that for far too long. I was just going to say,
:48:23. > :48:27.I could not agree with Deborah Meaden more. As a teenager and a
:48:27. > :48:31.student, I am lucky enough to have a part-time job. We are being
:48:31. > :48:36.encouraged to go to university and everything, but how can we do that
:48:36. > :48:39.when we have not got any opportunities? Has there been any
:48:39. > :48:46.suggestion of you learning trades, or apprenticeships or engineering
:48:46. > :48:50.skills? Or is it all targeted at getting to university? We are
:48:50. > :48:57.encouraged to do so, but we have to do it off Arran back these days. It
:48:57. > :49:01.is a lot harder to get a job. somebody who's from Dagenham, who
:49:01. > :49:06.understands this area very well, I have set up my own recruitment
:49:06. > :49:09.agency, the question was asked about young British youngsters, as
:49:09. > :49:13.opposed to Eastern European youngsters, we have got a situation
:49:13. > :49:17.whereby a there's a lot of young British people who seem to have the
:49:17. > :49:23.attitude of, the world owes me a living. A lot of them do not want
:49:23. > :49:33.to work. A lot of people do not want to work. I do not like that at
:49:33. > :49:33.
:49:33. > :49:37.all. I think young people get brought to a point. It is very
:49:37. > :49:41.populist to talk about good for nothings, layabouts, and I have
:49:41. > :49:45.seen them, they come to work for me, they look like they are not
:49:45. > :49:50.interested, and they're disengaged - what took them to that place?
:49:50. > :49:56.That's what I am talking about, it is the whole system that makes them
:49:56. > :50:00.feel disengaged, makes them feel... Do you know, it is really confusing
:50:00. > :50:03.to be a teenager, you don't know what you want, you do not know who
:50:04. > :50:10.you're off. On top of that, we are not leading them to a place and
:50:10. > :50:13.giving them their options. So I do not go with that populist you. I
:50:13. > :50:18.have got some very difficult young people working for me, and frankly
:50:18. > :50:23.at times I have thought, for goodness sake! But doesn't a lot of
:50:23. > :50:31.that come from the parents as well? We're putting our arms around them
:50:31. > :50:34.too much. I agree, I'm not pointing fingers, I do not like blame. The
:50:34. > :50:39.only point of looking back for blame is to make sure we do not do
:50:39. > :50:43.it again. I'm not pointing fingers, I'm saying that it will be in
:50:43. > :50:47.everything, parenting, education, but somehow, we have brought our
:50:47. > :50:52.young people to a point where I think they are very confused, they
:50:52. > :50:56.have lacked guidance, they have not been educated for the life they are
:50:56. > :50:59.about to get, and we have failed them. American culture is very
:51:00. > :51:08.different, they have a very different structure, and yet we
:51:08. > :51:12.have exactly the same youth unemployment problem. I think if
:51:12. > :51:15.you're having the same disease showing up in a range of patients,
:51:15. > :51:19.with different life histories, living in different places, then
:51:19. > :51:22.you need to stop looking for patient specific causes of the
:51:22. > :51:28.disease. The disease that you have in Dagenham is the same disease
:51:28. > :51:34.that you will find in Cleveland, Michigan, it is a global problem,
:51:34. > :51:43.with youth unemployment. They are the new entrants to the market. It
:51:43. > :51:47.happens in Europe, where people make things very comfortable for
:51:47. > :51:54.incumbents. Britain is in the middle. But in the United States,
:51:54. > :52:00.we do not make things comfortable, it is very easy to fire. I think
:52:00. > :52:05.the curriculum is very powerful, but one thing, if I were making
:52:05. > :52:10.decisions in Britain about education, I would say, as part of
:52:10. > :52:12.the EU, you have to emphasise languages. One reason the Eastern
:52:12. > :52:17.European teenagers are here is because your teenagers are not
:52:17. > :52:24.there. The Polish economy is growing, how many young British
:52:24. > :52:27.people speak Polish? German, French, if you're going to have a
:52:27. > :52:31.continental economy, and be participants in it, you cannot say
:52:31. > :52:38.that because Britain won two world wars, therefore British people
:52:38. > :52:43.never have to learn the language of their customers. And by the way,
:52:43. > :52:52.Americans are as guilty, or worse. And you as a Canadian can speak
:52:52. > :52:57.French? I actually teach here in Dagenham, and the young people I
:52:57. > :53:00.teach are bright, polite, hard- working, personable teenagers,
:53:00. > :53:03.regardless of their background. The problem is, when I talk to them,
:53:03. > :53:06.they're scared of going to university because of the debt, and
:53:06. > :53:10.they look at what jobs are available and they simply say,
:53:10. > :53:14.there is nothing for us to go to. It is a real push in schools just
:53:14. > :53:23.to get grades up, for the league tables, but what about the actual
:53:23. > :53:27.students, that's what the schools are for? Do you agree with what
:53:28. > :53:32.Mary Bousted was saying about the curriculum being tipped too much
:53:32. > :53:37.towards academic success? We're going back to the grammar school
:53:37. > :53:43.system, how is that a forward step, if we're going backwards. We need
:53:43. > :53:49.to adapt to the times. Can we deal with this, Ken Clarke, because
:53:49. > :53:57.obviously the curriculum is changing, but specifically on what
:53:57. > :54:01.Mary Bousted said about it being too academic. Manufacturing is not
:54:01. > :54:05.people on conveyor belts, it is all about high-tech manufacturing,
:54:05. > :54:11.which we are quite good at at the moment. What Michael is trying to
:54:11. > :54:16.say is that you do need literacy and numeracy. It is not just...
:54:16. > :54:22.you need the practical application. We also have a massive
:54:22. > :54:26.apprenticeship which came under way as well, which has been praised. --
:54:26. > :54:30.apprenticeship scheme. But the apprenticeships to require a good
:54:30. > :54:33.basic level of education. It was all about rebalancing the economy,
:54:33. > :54:36.and then you're talking about education reform, we're talking
:54:37. > :54:40.about work programmes which the Government is bringing in. You are
:54:40. > :54:43.talking about welfare reform, because you have got to combine
:54:43. > :54:48.making it more attractive to work and to be on benefit with giving
:54:48. > :54:51.help to people who are stuck and getting disillusioned, to get
:54:51. > :54:56.themselves into work. There is a massive effort going on. It has hit
:54:56. > :55:00.the whole world, as you say. It has not just started, our youth
:55:00. > :55:04.unemployment has been going up for several years. It is worse in Spain.
:55:04. > :55:08.It is across the Western democracies. At the moment, we have
:55:08. > :55:12.a range of things for tackling that, very radical reforms in education
:55:12. > :55:17.and training and work programmes and apprenticeships. Unfortunately,
:55:17. > :55:21.it will take some years. But if you wreck the economy, you're going to
:55:21. > :55:30.get nowhere. It goes back to having a strong hand guiding the economy
:55:30. > :55:34.so that you can get growth. My fear is that a lot of the services that
:55:34. > :55:39.the young people here in Barking & Dagenham rely on, which might help
:55:39. > :55:42.them get a job, are being cut. Charities which might be able to
:55:42. > :55:45.advise young people, these services are being cut because of the
:55:45. > :55:51.climate that we are in, and local authorities are really struggling
:55:51. > :55:56.to offer that support to young people. Things like Connections are
:55:56. > :56:03.being cut. So, you think the prospects are getting worse at the
:56:04. > :56:09.moment because of this lack of support? We're putting support into
:56:09. > :56:13.the job centres for young people. think the saddest thing is that
:56:13. > :56:15.this is probably the first generation of young people where I
:56:15. > :56:19.think families are wondering whether their young people will go
:56:19. > :56:24.on to do better than them. I think that is incredibly sad. We have got
:56:24. > :56:27.to be very careful about the way we talk. I appreciate what you said
:56:27. > :56:31.about young people. I think in this country we have the most talented,
:56:31. > :56:37.energetic, fantastic young people, and we have really got to talk them
:56:37. > :56:47.up. Because God, there are going to be faced with a far more difficult
:56:47. > :56:47.
:56:47. > :56:53.climate than we are having to deal with. But I do not think it is a
:56:53. > :56:59.zero-sum game, vocational on the one hand or University, it is both.
:56:59. > :57:04.We need to be good at both of those things. Apologies to those who have
:57:04. > :57:14.had their hands up for some time. Particularly you, sir. I will give
:57:14. > :57:14.
:57:15. > :57:18.you a quick last word. Oh, you have spoken already? She was right about
:57:18. > :57:22.the curriculum, Michael Gove's English Baccalaureate means that
:57:22. > :57:25.things like technology will be squeezed. One of the biggest drops
:57:25. > :57:29.in teacher vacancies is in in teacher vacancies is in
:57:29. > :57:37.technology. We have to stop because our time is up. Next week we will
:57:37. > :57:44.be in Stoke-on-Trent. Among those on the panel will be the boss of
:57:44. > :57:54.Next. Then there is a break for Christmas, and we will be back, in
:57:54. > :57:55.