0:00:00 > 0:00:10We are in London for this first edition of the new year. Welcome to
0:00:10 > 0:00:12
0:00:12 > 0:00:16Question Time. With me here, the Transport Secretary, Justine
0:00:16 > 0:00:18Greening. The Shadow Foreign Secretary, Douglas Alexander.
0:00:18 > 0:00:21Former leader of the Liberal Democrats, Paddy Ashdown. The
0:00:21 > 0:00:31Deputy First Minister of Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon and the former
0:00:31 > 0:00:40
0:00:40 > 0:00:46editor of the Sun, now Daily Mail Thank you very much. First question
0:00:46 > 0:00:51tonight from Monika Flang, please. Nearly 33 billion is going to be
0:00:51 > 0:00:55spent on high speed rail to get to Birmingham 30 minutes earlier. Is
0:00:56 > 0:00:58there really no better way you can spend our money? �33 billion on
0:00:58 > 0:01:03high-speed rail to get to Birmingham. No better way to spend
0:01:03 > 0:01:09the money. Justine Greening, you can't give all the answers, but
0:01:09 > 0:01:13what is your answer to that basic question. If it was 33 billion to
0:01:13 > 0:01:17spend just going to Birmingham, it probably wouldn't be. It's 33
0:01:17 > 0:01:20billion to do the entire line up to Leeds and Manchester. That will
0:01:20 > 0:01:25save even more time for people and if you are heading up to Scotland
0:01:25 > 0:01:29it will be 30 minutes faster after phase one, and after phase two, an
0:01:29 > 0:01:34hour off the journey time and it will add the capacity that we need
0:01:34 > 0:01:38to the network. We are still on the Victorian network, built over 100
0:01:38 > 0:01:42years ago. It will make it faster and connect up some of the major
0:01:42 > 0:01:47cities in the way they've never had before. All in all, it's a really
0:01:47 > 0:01:52good thing we need to do. We have to plan ahead and that's what we
0:01:52 > 0:01:57are doing. The Victorians got the public to pay. They didn't do it
0:01:57 > 0:02:01through tax. They had companies set up. Why are the taxpayers having to
0:02:01 > 0:02:05do this? We are hoping we may get private sector contributions, but
0:02:05 > 0:02:09we have done the business case based on the assumption that the
0:02:10 > 0:02:13taxpayer may well have to pay and I think that's the right thing. If
0:02:14 > 0:02:18you look at the benefits, they are going to huge. I was up in
0:02:18 > 0:02:22Birmingham, talk ing to them about the kind of impact that High Speed
0:02:22 > 0:02:25Two can have on their city and the West Midlands. It is going to be
0:02:25 > 0:02:34transformational in the way in which it connects up the country,
0:02:34 > 0:02:37but most of all, we have got to get the capacity. The network was
0:02:37 > 0:02:43always going to get full. We can't wait. We have to plan ahead and
0:02:43 > 0:02:46that's what we are doing. The woman there. I don't really understand
0:02:46 > 0:02:51why it's a spending priority for the Government at the moment. It
0:02:51 > 0:02:57sounds like it's more of a nice to have, more than necessary given
0:02:57 > 0:03:02other cuts, with people losing their jobs and healthcare. Kelvin
0:03:02 > 0:03:05MacKenzie. Answer that. It's not a priority? I am puzzled at
0:03:05 > 0:03:09everything I hear from the Prime Minister and the coalition
0:03:09 > 0:03:15Government, that we are broke. Suddenly, to dream up 33 billion is
0:03:15 > 0:03:22a hell of an investment. I have one other issue, my other issue is this
0:03:22 > 0:03:28- I'm a daily commuter into London for work. It costs me �21 a day and
0:03:28 > 0:03:33every night I go home and it's not a BO issue, I have to stand. Why is
0:03:33 > 0:03:37it I'm treated like a sardine today? Why don't you take some of
0:03:37 > 0:03:40that money and make the stations and platforms longer and get the
0:03:40 > 0:03:44trains better? Why is it that this money has to be spent in this
0:03:44 > 0:03:48direction, where actually the powerhouse that will drive our
0:03:48 > 0:03:53country is London and the south- east and we are treated in such a
0:03:53 > 0:03:57disgraceful manner? That's what we are doing. You will not find one
0:03:57 > 0:04:01commuter in this country, in London and the south-east, who has one
0:04:01 > 0:04:05decent word for the train system. It's a nightmare. We are putting in
0:04:05 > 0:04:13the short-term investment. We got a deal with Bombardier and agreed
0:04:13 > 0:04:18with southern railways for more carriages, but isn't the sluection
0:04:18 > 0:04:22-- solution - When am I going to have extra carriages? We'll invest
0:04:22 > 0:04:25in nearly 3,000 extra carriages, but isn't the ultimate answer to
0:04:25 > 0:04:31your question, you took about standing. Surely the answer is more
0:04:31 > 0:04:36capacity. That's what high speed rail will do. Not for his commute.
0:04:37 > 0:04:42I don't want to go to Paris. Birmingham? Well - Not much by the
0:04:42 > 0:04:47sound. Let's come back to this. is important, because when we have
0:04:47 > 0:04:51high speed rail it is going to release capacity on the existing
0:04:51 > 0:04:57network two, so the critical issues you have got can't be solved any
0:04:57 > 0:05:01more by just adding more carriages. That network is full. We need a new
0:05:01 > 0:05:05line, in the same way the motorways took the pressure off the A roads.
0:05:05 > 0:05:08That is what the rail will do. running up and down. When people
0:05:08 > 0:05:13are coming in from Essex. And probably in Scotland. Douglas
0:05:13 > 0:05:18Alexander, what do you think? support this. In terms of the cost,
0:05:18 > 0:05:22it's right that it is an expensive project, but equally it's not due
0:05:22 > 0:05:25for completion even to Birmingham until 2026, so the expenditure will
0:05:25 > 0:05:28be phased. Secondly, if we want a more balanced economy, with every
0:05:28 > 0:05:33part of Britain contributing to that economic growth in the future,
0:05:33 > 0:05:37then one of the things we should be investing in, in the years ahead is
0:05:37 > 0:05:41the quality of the infrastructure. Look at the number of airports and
0:05:41 > 0:05:49railways in China and other countries. The other point is there
0:05:49 > 0:05:55is no free lunch. We upgraded the west coast main Lewin. -- West
0:05:55 > 0:05:59Coast Main Line. It's an expensive business. It is conducting open-
0:05:59 > 0:06:02heart surgery on a Victorian railway. That has increased the
0:06:02 > 0:06:08capacity there, but the East Coast Main Line is filling up rapidly and
0:06:08 > 0:06:12the Midland too. The Government had a choice and I think they made the
0:06:12 > 0:06:19correct choice, which is not simply in a rather British way to patch
0:06:19 > 0:06:23and mend, but to say, let's invest like others in 21st century
0:06:23 > 0:06:26infrastructure. It doesn't just benefit Birmingham. I have got
0:06:26 > 0:06:30assurances that trains will run through Birmingham, so trains can
0:06:30 > 0:06:34travel at high speed and then on the existing track. It will cut the
0:06:34 > 0:06:38journey time to Glasgow and Edinburgh by an hour. We want to
0:06:38 > 0:06:41see work starting work early on Manchester and Leeds so jobs are
0:06:41 > 0:06:44created not just in the south but in the north of England as well.
0:06:44 > 0:06:47There are real benefits that I think will be generated over the
0:06:47 > 0:06:51years ahead, not just in terms of the kind of expenditure and
0:06:51 > 0:06:56infrastructure we should be seeing at this time of economic downturn,
0:06:56 > 0:07:00but long-term economic benefits for the whole of the United Kingdom.
0:07:00 > 0:07:05The woman here. I do have a question regarding long-term
0:07:05 > 0:07:08benefits of the high speed rail link. Shouldn't we look more into
0:07:08 > 0:07:15international transport? Heathrow Airport is completely at capacity.
0:07:15 > 0:07:19Shouldn't we look to expand that, so we can get to India, China,
0:07:19 > 0:07:26South America, Russia. We can't fly to their airports. Shouldn't we
0:07:26 > 0:07:31look at, seeing as we are falling behind in GDP, look ing to expand
0:07:31 > 0:07:34that? Nicola Sturgeon? I support it. I don't think it's the be all and
0:07:34 > 0:07:38end all, but I believe it's good for the economy and I believe it
0:07:38 > 0:07:42will help link up different parts of the UK and help reduce
0:07:42 > 0:07:47unnecessary air travel as well, so for all the things I think it's
0:07:47 > 0:07:52good. I'm disappointed in the timescale set out earlier this week.
0:07:52 > 0:07:56I'm depressed to work out that I'll be 61 when it gets to Leeds and
0:07:56 > 0:08:02Manchester. It won't surprise anyone here for people to hear that
0:08:02 > 0:08:05I would like it to link up Scotland more quickly. We have had good
0:08:05 > 0:08:09discussions with Justine's colleagues this week to see how we
0:08:09 > 0:08:13can play our part in trying to get it to Scotland much more quickly. I
0:08:13 > 0:08:18have some sympathy when I hear people contrast this scale of
0:08:18 > 0:08:21investment with the cuts that people are living through and
0:08:21 > 0:08:24experiencing right now though. We have heard Justine and her
0:08:24 > 0:08:28colleagues this week talk about the economic importance of an
0:08:28 > 0:08:32investment like this. Not just the importance of having high speed
0:08:32 > 0:08:34rail, but the economic impact of this kind of investment and
0:08:34 > 0:08:37creating jobs around the construction. That does beg the
0:08:37 > 0:08:44question, why the Government is cutting capital investment right
0:08:44 > 0:08:47now, when the economy is teetering on the brink of recession by 30%.
0:08:47 > 0:08:52Let's have more capital investment to create jobs and keep the economy
0:08:52 > 0:08:56growing or get the economy growing. Political classes seem to be in
0:08:56 > 0:09:04favour. Among the questions from the people, there was a lot of
0:09:04 > 0:09:09opposition to it. The man in the blue. I'm against it because there
0:09:09 > 0:09:12seems to be a preoccupation with time with the politicians. Douglas
0:09:12 > 0:09:16Alexander goes on about the north- west and The Trainline going up
0:09:17 > 0:09:19there. I have used that for 30 years and the trains used to stop
0:09:19 > 0:09:24every train at Watford Junction. Now they don't any longer. There
0:09:24 > 0:09:30are two a day and one of them is ten to six in the morning. You want
0:09:30 > 0:09:34to get off there, do you? I want to go to Lime Street. What I have to
0:09:34 > 0:09:39do is get on at Watford and get a train to London Euston and go up to
0:09:39 > 0:09:44Lime Street. In the official literature it is saying that the
0:09:44 > 0:09:46train time now is 2 hours and 40 minutes. That is because it doesn't
0:09:46 > 0:09:54stop anywhere. People can't get on or off it.
0:09:54 > 0:09:58LAUGHTER I'll put it to Justine in one
0:09:58 > 0:10:08moment. Paddy Ashdown. Perhaps you know about the stopping places on
0:10:08 > 0:10:11
0:10:11 > 0:10:16the route to Liverpool? No, I don't, I have to say. Look, the question I
0:10:16 > 0:10:21think was is there another way. My answer is there is no other way
0:10:21 > 0:10:25that is better than this. First the cost. At present there is going to
0:10:25 > 0:10:29be no cost, because we are currently spending more Crossrail.
0:10:29 > 0:10:33When the Crossrail project is finished in 2014, I think or 15,
0:10:33 > 0:10:38that budget line is transferred to this. There is no extra cost at
0:10:38 > 0:10:43present. There will be an extra cost that comes on in 2015 and 16,
0:10:43 > 0:10:47because the budget spent on Crossrail will be transFord, but
0:10:47 > 0:10:51hopefully the economy will be -- transferred, but hopefully the
0:10:51 > 0:10:54economy will be growing. Kelvin's trains, we need to spend. You are
0:10:54 > 0:10:58absolutely dead right and the Government is doing that. But the
0:10:58 > 0:11:01fact that you are doing things to tackle the short-term problem
0:11:01 > 0:11:05doesn't mean you shouldn't plan for the long-term one. This is about
0:11:05 > 0:11:08long-term investment and giving the country a modern high-speed
0:11:08 > 0:11:11infrastructure of the sort that France and Germany has. I don't
0:11:11 > 0:11:17think doing what you want to see done, which I would argue the
0:11:17 > 0:11:22Government is making some attempts to do, deminutishes the long-term
0:11:22 > 0:11:31thinking. Then there is the very - You haven't travelled on my line.
0:11:31 > 0:11:37travel on my own line and it like that. There is no point in
0:11:37 > 0:11:41improving the air trant port to China, when businessmen can't
0:11:41 > 0:11:43travel in the same way they can travel efficiently in other
0:11:43 > 0:11:47countries. This about internal infrastructure. We are a crowded
0:11:47 > 0:11:52island and small. The roads are clogged up and the rail system is
0:11:52 > 0:11:54failing. Surely it is time to start investing in a proper, modern,
0:11:54 > 0:11:58futuristic, long-term infrastructure for the country?
0:11:58 > 0:12:02This does it and my view is that the reason why this is right is not
0:12:02 > 0:12:12because of the Government's cost analysis, it's because it would
0:12:12 > 0:12:15
0:12:15 > 0:12:20cost more not to do it in the long term. Justine Greening? Is it true
0:12:20 > 0:12:28that three quarters of a billion has already been spent before even
0:12:28 > 0:12:33a hole has been dug in the earth on the planning? We will spend that
0:12:33 > 0:12:37over the course of the Parliament. We spent some of it already. We
0:12:37 > 0:12:40have done a public consultation, but we have to do a lot of detailed
0:12:40 > 0:12:46work to understand the very detailed environmental impact and
0:12:46 > 0:12:54that is costly. How much will it cost to go to Birmingham standard?
0:12:54 > 0:12:58The total project is 16.3 billion. If he wanted to go to Birmingham.
0:12:58 > 0:13:03We projected that you would spend on the existing kind of journey, so
0:13:03 > 0:13:08we are not doing an uplift. costs �80 roughly and it will cost
0:13:08 > 0:13:16that when this comes on-line? have worked on the assumption you
0:13:16 > 0:13:19would pay a comparable price. The point on the existing network, one
0:13:20 > 0:13:23of the reasons we have lost connectivity we keep on having to
0:13:23 > 0:13:27prioritise the carriages to stop at the places where most people are.
0:13:27 > 0:13:29The best way to get more capacity for people like you is to relieve
0:13:30 > 0:13:34the pressures on the existing network already there and that
0:13:34 > 0:13:39means high speed rail. He is shaking his head. That is not true.
0:13:39 > 0:13:43You are taking public money and there is a Government subsidy that
0:13:43 > 0:13:48goes to Virgin Trains at the moment of �20 million a year. Public money
0:13:48 > 0:13:50is going into the trains. I'm not getting any service whatsoever. For
0:13:50 > 0:13:5530 years trains stopped at Watford Junction. They are not stopping
0:13:55 > 0:14:04there any longer. Let's leave Watford for one moment. We have a
0:14:04 > 0:14:09number of others there. I want to come back on Paddy's point, because
0:14:09 > 0:14:14basically in France, yes, we have got a high-spread train and it's
0:14:14 > 0:14:22really good, but it was costing me �30 to go on the same distance to
0:14:22 > 0:14:26work. Here it is costing me �130. We should first make a point on the
0:14:26 > 0:14:36commuting as a basic community where Westminster are using it
0:14:36 > 0:14:38
0:14:38 > 0:14:42every day. You pay four times in The High Speed Two is estimated to
0:14:42 > 0:14:47cost the taxpayer �1,000 each. If you want to generate the North,
0:14:47 > 0:14:51wipe out some VAT and income taxes for the lowest paid instead if you
0:14:51 > 0:14:54really want to regenerate the North now. Interestingly, that's not what
0:14:54 > 0:14:58the North thinks. If you go to Manchester, Birmingham, Nicola's
0:14:58 > 0:15:01talking about the benefits of high- speed rail and what it can do for
0:15:01 > 0:15:04Scotland, that's not what people who live in that part of the
0:15:04 > 0:15:08country think. They recognise just how vital this project is for them,
0:15:08 > 0:15:14for connecting them up, for allowing their country and
0:15:14 > 0:15:18companies to compete. High-speed one phase one will create 40,000
0:15:18 > 0:15:21jobs alone. We have to do this, we have to solve that gentleman's
0:15:21 > 0:15:25capacity problems. The best way is to get more capacity, meaning a new
0:15:25 > 0:15:29line. If you are going to have a new line, why would you have a
0:15:29 > 0:15:35conventional speed line when you can have a high-speed line? We'll
0:15:35 > 0:15:42bring you back in 26 whenever it is and see whether your problem has
0:15:42 > 0:15:50been solved... Buy you a ticket. Xanthe Mosley, please? Who would be
0:15:50 > 0:15:56worse off if a marriage breaks up - England or Scotland? Kelvin
0:15:56 > 0:16:00MacKenzie? Well, I think that, to be truthful, I think that David
0:16:00 > 0:16:05Cameron's playing a very cunning game. I don't think he's in favour
0:16:05 > 0:16:12of unity at all. In fact, he'd be absolutely nuts from his
0:16:12 > 0:16:19perspective to be in favour of unity. Scotland has 41 Labour MPs.
0:16:19 > 0:16:21They disappear in a tries and that would then lead to England being a
0:16:21 > 0:16:26Conservative-controlled administration for as long as the
0:16:26 > 0:16:29eye can see -- in a trice. So he's winning and saying, I want you to
0:16:29 > 0:16:36all be unified. But behind his back, he's saying to the colleague, the
0:16:36 > 0:16:39quicker we dump the Jocks, the better. When you think of the
0:16:39 > 0:16:43advantage that any politician would make-over any other politician at
0:16:43 > 0:16:50anything else, this time it's fantastic. He'd have an in-built
0:16:50 > 0:16:54Conservative majority for ever and a day. That's not true. We have to
0:16:54 > 0:16:57think about this, it's only once since the war that a Labour
0:16:57 > 0:17:01Government's needed Labour votes in Scotland, Labour seats in Scotland
0:17:01 > 0:17:06to stay in Government. Only Cameron this time, Cameron this time in
0:17:06 > 0:17:092010, would not have needed to form a coalition if you wipe out all the
0:17:09 > 0:17:17Scottish MPs. Well, yes. Every Labour Government has had a
0:17:17 > 0:17:21majority in England? Right, but hold on a second. I'm playing
0:17:21 > 0:17:25Leveson. Where do you get this stuff from?! Tell you what, I'm
0:17:25 > 0:17:29going to have to have a word with my researcher.
0:17:29 > 0:17:35APPLAUSE The point is, Labour would be
0:17:35 > 0:17:44massively under the cosh and, of course, if you reverse the idea and
0:17:44 > 0:17:49ask the English do they wish to have these rather recalcitrant
0:17:49 > 0:17:53neighbours who seem to be doing well with the free prescriptions
0:17:53 > 0:17:57and university places for their people, not our people, you would
0:17:57 > 0:18:02find it goes 70-30 in the other direction. I wish the Scots every
0:18:02 > 0:18:06success as an independent country. I do not believe we need unity in
0:18:06 > 0:18:09order to conduct ourselves in a reasonable manner. Scotland's a
0:18:10 > 0:18:14lovely place and I think they should have their own independence.
0:18:14 > 0:18:19I'm a massive admirer of Alex Salmond. The only politician in my
0:18:19 > 0:18:23lifetime who's had one policy and stuck to it. God bless you, Alex,
0:18:23 > 0:18:28let's have your free country. APPLAUSE
0:18:28 > 0:18:32I was relying on Jock bashing from Kelvin to send Scottish
0:18:32 > 0:18:35independence through the roof. You have disappointed me. David ruined
0:18:35 > 0:18:39my argument before. That was the only argument you had,
0:18:39 > 0:18:43was it? Yes. Oh, I see. Nicola Sturgeon?
0:18:43 > 0:18:50Who will be worse off? We'll both be better off. Scotland would get
0:18:50 > 0:18:56to stand on our own two feet, take responsibility. England it's often
0:18:56 > 0:19:01said would lose a lodger and gain a neighbour is. England would no
0:19:01 > 0:19:05longer have... Do you see yourself as a surly lodger? No, other people
0:19:05 > 0:19:09do, I'm talking about Kelvin again. England wouldn't have Scottish MPs
0:19:09 > 0:19:13like Douglas in the House of Commons voting to impose tuition
0:19:13 > 0:19:17fees on English students when he can't do it in Scotland because the
0:19:17 > 0:19:21Scottish Parliament hasen sured that tuition for Scottish students
0:19:21 > 0:19:26is free. After independence, England and Scotland will be the
0:19:26 > 0:19:31best of friends at the closest -- and the closest of allies and we'll
0:19:31 > 0:19:35both be better off. Perhaps Scotland on occasion can show a
0:19:35 > 0:19:37protkpresive alternative to some of the policies -- progressive. We are
0:19:37 > 0:19:41not privatising our National Health Service, for example. We have shown
0:19:41 > 0:19:45the way in other things as well, banning smoking in public places,
0:19:45 > 0:19:50taking tough action on minimum pricing for alcohol. We care for
0:19:50 > 0:19:55our elderly with free personal care, so sometimes we can show the better
0:19:55 > 0:20:01alternative. At the English expense. Scotland's not sub Sid sized at all,
0:20:01 > 0:20:05it pays her way and I won't let anybody say any different. Would
0:20:05 > 0:20:11Douglas Alexander say any different. Scotland pays its way and show a
0:20:11 > 0:20:16better example on many issues than Labour and the Tories? I think
0:20:16 > 0:20:20Scotland and England would be diminished if we see the break-up
0:20:20 > 0:20:25of Britain. There are issues of accountancy. We'd all benefit from
0:20:25 > 0:20:29sharing risks, rewards and resources in this multinational,
0:20:29 > 0:20:33multiethnic, multidull churl union of ours. This is not an issue of
0:20:33 > 0:20:38accountancy. It's far more profound than that. This is about what we
0:20:38 > 0:20:40believe and who we are -- multicultural. I'm proudly and
0:20:40 > 0:20:45passionately Scottish but I've never believed to build up Scotland
0:20:45 > 0:20:47you have to break up Britain. It's not simply that our parents and
0:20:47 > 0:20:51grandparents fought together against fascism and then worked
0:20:51 > 0:20:55together to build a National Health Service, it's not simply that we
0:20:55 > 0:21:00share common institutions from the monarchy and Armed Forces to the
0:21:00 > 0:21:02BBC and to the National Health Service. It's, I believe, a
0:21:02 > 0:21:06quintessentially modern idea that we work together, that we are
0:21:06 > 0:21:11stronger together and would be weaker apart in the 21st century.
0:21:11 > 0:21:13That's why I think it's important that we reject a politics of grudge
0:21:13 > 0:21:17and grievance and narrow nationalism on whichever side of
0:21:17 > 0:21:22the border we find it and may common cause and say in the 21st
0:21:22 > 0:21:26century we are stronger together and would be weaker apart.
0:21:26 > 0:21:30APPLAUSE The man up there in the back? You,
0:21:30 > 0:21:34Sir? Nicola Sturgeon makes a very impassioned case for Scottish
0:21:34 > 0:21:38independence. I'm confused why they are trying to delay the referendum
0:21:38 > 0:21:41to 2014. I put forward the point that it's down to the opinion polls
0:21:41 > 0:21:47that show that support for Scottish independence is down to 38% and you
0:21:47 > 0:21:50want to take the long-term case forward. I'll let you into a secret,
0:21:50 > 0:21:55autumn 2014, we think Scotland's going to win the World Cup in the
0:21:55 > 0:21:59summer of 2014. In the raeld world, there's two reasons why -- real
0:21:59 > 0:22:04world. It's probably safe then. reasons why we have said awe full
0:22:04 > 0:22:082014. The first was, it was an election commitment. We said the
0:22:08 > 0:22:11referendum would be in the second half But it wasn't in your
0:22:11 > 0:22:14manifesto. It was a commitment made by the First Minister, he made it
0:22:14 > 0:22:20clear. Four days before the election he suddenly said it would
0:22:20 > 0:22:27be in the second half. You thought you might win? The second half of
0:22:27 > 0:22:31the Parliamentary. It might be a novel concept but we think it's a
0:22:31 > 0:22:35good idea to keep promises. SNP? The other point is a practical
0:22:35 > 0:22:39point. We are about to consult on the arpbsments for the referendum -
0:22:39 > 0:22:42- arrangements for the referendum. We are going to have legislation
0:22:42 > 0:22:45over the course of next year. In 2007, the Scottish Parliament
0:22:45 > 0:22:48elections were a bit of an administrative disaster. Douglas
0:22:48 > 0:22:52was in charge of them but we won't go there just now. There was a
0:22:52 > 0:22:57report and that said there has to be six months between legislation
0:22:57 > 0:23:00for an election or referendum and that taking place. We don't want
0:23:00 > 0:23:04into coincide with the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow. Autumn 2014 is
0:23:04 > 0:23:08when it's going to be and let the people of Scotland decide. You are
0:23:08 > 0:23:11frightened. Let the people have the debate. The border question
0:23:11 > 0:23:15dominates. Do you think the Scottish aren't intelligent enough
0:23:15 > 0:23:20to reach a decision. You are like a doctor that says, I can cure your
0:23:20 > 0:23:26illness but I won't give it to you for two years.
0:23:26 > 0:23:30What's the problem in waiting, Douglas Alexander? If Nicola is the
0:23:30 > 0:23:35Deputy First Minister and Alex Salmond is the First Minister, her
0:23:35 > 0:23:37whole raison detre in politics is to take the difficult decisions in
0:23:38 > 0:23:41Government... Difficult decisions in Government are made every day.
0:23:41 > 0:23:43We hear rubbish from the other parties about the economic
0:23:43 > 0:23:46uncertainty. The Institute of Directors in Scotland have said
0:23:46 > 0:23:51that is rubbish. I have a long list of companies investing in Scotland.
0:23:51 > 0:23:57Scotland is doing well. It can do better with independence, I look
0:23:57 > 0:24:07forward to the referendum. doesn't the UK Government encourage
0:24:07 > 0:24:09
0:24:09 > 0:24:16Scotland to take a - maybe we can have another Bank Holiday to
0:24:16 > 0:24:19celebrate the fact we are not subsidising Scotland any more.
0:24:19 > 0:24:22Dueblg with subsidise Scotland -- do you believe we cub Sidise
0:24:22 > 0:24:26Scotland? At the end of the day, we have a single economy. We both
0:24:26 > 0:24:30benefit in terms of trade between Scotland and England. I do want to
0:24:30 > 0:24:35see us stick together but a lot of people, as the gentleman said at
0:24:35 > 0:24:37the back, are slightly confused about how can Alex Salmond feel
0:24:37 > 0:24:42passionate about independence but doesn't seem to want to get on with
0:24:42 > 0:24:45it. This week, we have said, right, we are going to consult on how
0:24:45 > 0:24:49welcome remove a key legal barrier that might mean the referendum
0:24:49 > 0:24:54might not be legal, we are going to consult on how to make it legal,
0:24:54 > 0:24:58decisive and fair. I do think it's time that Scottish people had their
0:24:58 > 0:25:02say, sooner rather than later. I think the reason for that, is that
0:25:02 > 0:25:08business is in danger of being harmed in Scotland and the CBI in
0:25:08 > 0:25:11Scotland are saying that. I think it's intuetive. If you have such a
0:25:11 > 0:25:14fundamental question facing the country you are interested in or
0:25:14 > 0:25:17investing in, you are bound to wonder what your plans ought to be
0:25:17 > 0:25:21going forward if you don't know what the situation will be.
0:25:21 > 0:25:27The man on the right? I think the argument for Scotland remaining in
0:25:27 > 0:25:31the UK is eminently winnable in 2011. The problem we have in
0:25:31 > 0:25:34Scotland in the Scottish Parliament is with don't have anyone credible
0:25:34 > 0:25:38to articulate it. David Cameron is not the man to articulate it. Until
0:25:38 > 0:25:42we find someone who does, the SNP will continue delaying until the
0:25:42 > 0:25:45reisn'tment of a Tory government is at its maximum in 2014 and try and
0:25:45 > 0:25:48use that opportunity to get a vote. People like Douglas Alexander have
0:25:48 > 0:25:53gone down to Westminster and not fought? This is the problem.
0:25:53 > 0:25:58would rather he went up there, would you? Paddy Ashdown?
0:25:58 > 0:26:01answer to Xanthe Mosley's question is, who would suffer most, the
0:26:01 > 0:26:06answer is, we both would. I've had experience of separatists who break
0:26:06 > 0:26:09up their country and it's not a happy one. We are immensely strong.
0:26:09 > 0:26:14You are talking about Bosnia- Herzegovina? I won't draw
0:26:14 > 0:26:19comparisons but I have experience in those areas and it's not a happy
0:26:19 > 0:26:22circumstance. The thing to learn today is to work together and not
0:26:22 > 0:26:27break apart. We are immensely stronger together than we would be
0:26:27 > 0:26:32apart. In what way? The United Kingdom stands much taller as a
0:26:32 > 0:26:36United Kingdom than it would as a... Look, I have to tell you, I'm as
0:26:36 > 0:26:41opposed to little Englanders as I am to little Scotland,, frankly and
0:26:41 > 0:26:47I'm a Great Britain man. We stand taller doond better if we stand
0:26:47 > 0:26:50together than breaking apart -- taller and do better if we stand
0:26:50 > 0:26:54together than breaking apart. This debate is going to develop. It's
0:26:54 > 0:27:00the most important debate we've had in Britain, constitutional debate
0:27:00 > 0:27:03for 300 years. The people are going to make this decision - are the
0:27:03 > 0:27:06Scottish people alone, speaking with a sovereign voice. But it's
0:27:07 > 0:27:10right that the rest of Great Britain has a part in this, and the
0:27:10 > 0:27:14United Kingdom Prime Minister has a part in it too. There's a legal
0:27:14 > 0:27:20position that Justine's talked about. What worries me is that this
0:27:20 > 0:27:24debate's now got off at a very, very bad pace. We have got two high
0:27:24 > 0:27:28pressureed egos fighting each other on the TV screens. By the way,
0:27:28 > 0:27:31recognise this, as well as being the biggest debate in our
0:27:31 > 0:27:36constitutional future, it's a high profile debate, high noon, only one
0:27:36 > 0:27:41of the two men will be standing at the end. David Cameron cannot
0:27:41 > 0:27:46continue as Prime Minister of grun if he loses and, in my view, Alex
0:27:46 > 0:27:51Salmond can't continue as Scottish Prime Minister. -- Prime Minister
0:27:51 > 0:27:56of Great Britain. What is the... Let me answer this... You are
0:27:56 > 0:28:03answering your own questions. gentleman was asking who's handled
0:28:03 > 0:28:06this right, the answer is Michael Moore. He's taken a bungled launch
0:28:07 > 0:28:11and bought this down to the level of statesmanship. We need to
0:28:11 > 0:28:14discuss not who will win this referendum, but how can we give the
0:28:14 > 0:28:18Scottish people the been fit of a referendum that is quick, as you
0:28:18 > 0:28:23need to answer that question quickly, that is fair, in other
0:28:23 > 0:28:26words it's overseen by the right body, and that is de-ice i? If
0:28:26 > 0:28:36David will allow many, I'll try and address those. I'll come back
0:28:36 > 0:28:45
0:28:45 > 0:28:48because you have had a long say if you don't mind -- -- decisive.
0:28:48 > 0:28:54believe every country should be independent and the Scottish people
0:28:54 > 0:28:58should be independent. I believe that if Scotland is going to be
0:28:58 > 0:29:06Scotland, Wales should be Wales and Ireland should be Ireland. But
0:29:06 > 0:29:12having said that, it's Scotland for 300 years who've been British, as
0:29:12 > 0:29:20we are. So if Scotland after 300 years want their independence, how
0:29:20 > 0:29:24long is it going to take the European Union countries of 27 to
0:29:24 > 0:29:28realise that they are individual countries and they should have
0:29:28 > 0:29:34their independence and make their own laws? They all leave the
0:29:34 > 0:29:38European Union? Absolutely. In time they will, because we are all as
0:29:38 > 0:29:42countries of one independent people. Douglas Alexander? I don't feel any
0:29:42 > 0:29:45less Scottish because we are part of this United Kingdom. The truth
0:29:45 > 0:29:52is, Paddy is correct to the extent that this is a momentous choice
0:29:52 > 0:29:54that we face. But I think while we can celebrate our diversity on
0:29:55 > 0:29:58those islands, we can strong do better and be stronger in the
0:29:58 > 0:30:02future by working together. I didn't come into politics tond
0:30:02 > 0:30:05Britain, I'm motivated by ending poverty, providing opportunity, but
0:30:05 > 0:30:09something changed in Scotland in May. The Scottish National party
0:30:09 > 0:30:12won a political mandate for a referendum. That is why I think
0:30:12 > 0:30:18it's right to recognise the scale and significance of the choice that
0:30:18 > 0:30:21we face and that is why I think it's vital that we reject a
0:30:21 > 0:30:25politics of grudge and grievance and I think we have to conduct a
0:30:25 > 0:30:28different quality of debate on this issue. So when Alex Salmond's
0:30:28 > 0:30:31personal ministerial aide this afternoon in the Scottish
0:30:31 > 0:30:34Parliament stood up and questioned the patriotism of those of us in
0:30:34 > 0:30:39Labour who don't want to take Scotland out of the United Kingdom,
0:30:39 > 0:30:43I just think that is despicable and wrong. I would ask Nicola this
0:30:43 > 0:30:49evening not to question the patriotism of the millions of Scots
0:30:49 > 0:30:53who stand tall within the United Kingdom. The fact is, Alex Salmond
0:30:53 > 0:30:57won an historic victory last May, nobody should pretend otherwise,
0:30:58 > 0:31:02but he won it despite a commitment to independence, not because of it.
0:31:02 > 0:31:11That's why support for independence tonight... We can't go on about
0:31:11 > 0:31:16I want to agree with Paddy Ashdown. This is the most important decision
0:31:16 > 0:31:19Scotland will have taken in 300 years and I want it to be a
0:31:19 > 0:31:22positive debate. I I think it's a perfectly legitimate opinion for
0:31:22 > 0:31:26somebody to say that Scotland should stay within the United
0:31:26 > 0:31:30Kingdom. I don't believe it is anti-Scottish for people to want to
0:31:30 > 0:31:36stay within the United Kingdom. What I think is wrong and what I
0:31:36 > 0:31:40think - Was she wrong? What does a great disservice and you hear this
0:31:40 > 0:31:44more often from politicians in Scotland than south of the border,
0:31:44 > 0:31:48is when people say Scotland cannot be independent, that we are too
0:31:48 > 0:31:53small or too poor or we are too weak. This should be a positive
0:31:53 > 0:31:59debate. I'll make it positively, because I believe independence -
0:31:59 > 0:32:05Was she wrong? The essence of independence is taking the matter
0:32:05 > 0:32:09in Scotland. Please, say it. She was wrong. The links are strong,
0:32:09 > 0:32:15but I believe Scotland should be proud. Would you answer his
0:32:15 > 0:32:23question? APPLAUSE
0:32:23 > 0:32:29John McAlpine was saying that politicians that politicians who
0:32:29 > 0:32:35talk -- talk Scotland down are anti-Scottish. "I absolutely make
0:32:35 > 0:32:39no apology for saying that the Liberal Democrats, Labour and the
0:32:39 > 0:32:44Tories are anti-Scottish." She should be ashamed of herself.
0:32:44 > 0:32:50talking Scotland down. That is what Joan mac an pine was talking about.
0:32:50 > 0:32:53-- Joan McAlpine was talking about. The woman there. I'm still confused
0:32:53 > 0:32:59about this argument that we want Scotland to stay as part of the
0:32:59 > 0:33:04union. I don't know where I stand, but there is a lot of talk about we
0:33:04 > 0:33:09are stronger together and it's all quite airy fairy and there doesn't
0:33:09 > 0:33:12seem to be any strong argument. Is it that Scotland - I don't know, is
0:33:12 > 0:33:18it that you think Barack Obama is thinking, "Oh, well they have
0:33:18 > 0:33:22Scotland on their side, so I want to talk to them."? Paddy Ashdown,
0:33:22 > 0:33:29you were the one who said it was visceral with you that the UK
0:33:29 > 0:33:34should stay together. Economically stronger, politically stronger.
0:33:34 > 0:33:37Why? If you are thinking about making a contribution to a
0:33:37 > 0:33:41situation which threatens security of this country, there is just no
0:33:41 > 0:33:43doubt in my mind that the United Kingdom armed forces will make a
0:33:43 > 0:33:47better contribution than the individual armed forces of England
0:33:47 > 0:33:51and Scotland. If you are talking about having a voice in the world
0:33:51 > 0:33:54which is peace and issues related to the reform of the economy,
0:33:54 > 0:34:01Britain's voice is going to be far stronger than the individual voices
0:34:01 > 0:34:05of gland and Scotland, so that is the issue. Can I come back to a
0:34:05 > 0:34:10really key issue, because all of these will be argued out in the
0:34:10 > 0:34:14great campaign ahead. I'm really concerned to make sure that we get
0:34:14 > 0:34:20the structure and context of that campaign right. What worries me and
0:34:20 > 0:34:25if I may address this to Nicola, what worries me about the present
0:34:25 > 0:34:29propositions are they seem designed with too much politics in mind and
0:34:29 > 0:34:33too little trying to arrive at the right conclusion for the Scottish
0:34:33 > 0:34:37people. Two issues worry me. Frankly, the timing issue doesn't,
0:34:37 > 0:34:41if you fixed it by autumn 2014, I don't think we should make a great
0:34:42 > 0:34:45issue. But not allowing the United Kingdom's Electoral Commission to
0:34:45 > 0:34:49oversee this. If you are not going to and I'm sure you are not, going
0:34:49 > 0:34:55to gerrymander and put your own cronies in to your own committee to
0:34:55 > 0:34:58oversee the fairness of the referendum, why do you feel the --
0:34:58 > 0:35:02fear the commission? Secondly and the bit that really worries me, you
0:35:02 > 0:35:11seem to be proposing a three- question referendum. I was looking
0:35:11 > 0:35:14up the figures. There have been six broadly constitutional multi-choice
0:35:14 > 0:35:19referendums in four of those six they needed a second to sort out
0:35:19 > 0:35:24and decide on the answer to the first. The answer is simple,
0:35:24 > 0:35:28because what you get is 45% voting for A and 35 for B and 25 or
0:35:28 > 0:35:32whatever it is that is left over for C. A is accepted at 45, but
0:35:32 > 0:35:36more people voted against it. A three-question referendum does
0:35:36 > 0:35:44absolutely nothing. This is the idea of a third question, if you
0:35:44 > 0:35:54don't want independence. Nicola Sturgeon doesn't want one. That is
0:35:54 > 0:35:55
0:35:55 > 0:35:59what they are proposing. "We want a straight yes or no." I believe in
0:35:59 > 0:36:03independence for Scotland. We know that. We are not beginners in this
0:36:03 > 0:36:06argument. Let me get a word in and I'll answer the question. That is
0:36:06 > 0:36:12the question we want to see on the paper, but there is a strong body
0:36:12 > 0:36:18of opinion in Scotland that says we should have more powers. That is a
0:36:18 > 0:36:21different issue. Why? You have had devolution and Wales had a
0:36:21 > 0:36:26referendum on whether it should get more powers. That was a specific
0:36:26 > 0:36:30issue. This is a question about independence. It is quite different.
0:36:30 > 0:36:35Why should by restrict the options Answer one question at a time.
0:36:35 > 0:36:40of the politicians in their Scottish forms spent the last four
0:36:40 > 0:36:44years trying to block a referendum. Now they want to restrict the
0:36:44 > 0:36:51options. We believe it's the right of thepm to -- right of the people
0:36:51 > 0:36:56to choose. We must close this down, because we'll go on forever. Surely
0:36:56 > 0:37:00you understand that a three- question referendum leads to an
0:37:00 > 0:37:05indecisive result. Is that what you want? We are about to consult. Let
0:37:05 > 0:37:07people have their view. Would you recognise that? We have heard the
0:37:07 > 0:37:11voluntary organisations in Scotland and the church there saying that
0:37:11 > 0:37:19option should not be closed down. The referendum to set up the
0:37:19 > 0:37:23Scottish parl ment -- Parliament, as people - asked people if they
0:37:23 > 0:37:26wanted a Parliament and then one with taxation powers. The people
0:37:26 > 0:37:29are perfectly capable of making the decisions. What is wrong with
0:37:29 > 0:37:34allowing the people to have the choice? Paddy Ashdown has said what
0:37:34 > 0:37:37he sees as wrong. There is one other issue, Justine Greening, you
0:37:37 > 0:37:41were at the Treasury, and that's the question of Scotland, if it
0:37:41 > 0:37:45does choose independence, does it A have to join the EU or as Alex
0:37:45 > 0:37:51Salmond said last night, is it already in the EU? Secondly, does
0:37:51 > 0:37:56it have to join the euro, or can it keep sterling? The Chancellor
0:37:56 > 0:38:00seemed to be suggesting that they could not keep the pound unless
0:38:00 > 0:38:05Westminster allowed it. What is the position? In terms of Scotland and
0:38:05 > 0:38:08the EU, if you look at the population it would probably have
0:38:09 > 0:38:12voting rights like Slovenia, substantially lower than the UK at
0:38:12 > 0:38:15the moment and in terms of the currency, I think the Chancellor
0:38:15 > 0:38:19was talking about the policy that we understand Alex Salmond has,
0:38:20 > 0:38:23which is that he wants to go into the euro. I don't think it was a
0:38:23 > 0:38:27threat that Scotland would be out of the pound, sterling system. I
0:38:27 > 0:38:32think it was more reflecting the promise that Alex Salmond has made
0:38:32 > 0:38:35to take Scotland into the euro. they wanted to retain sterling for
0:38:35 > 0:38:38fairly obvious reasons, given the current state of the euro. Would it
0:38:38 > 0:38:42be a question for Westminster to decide or would it be accepted that
0:38:42 > 0:38:46Scotland could have the power? think it would be one of those
0:38:46 > 0:38:52questions that we would have to have a discussion with the Scottish
0:38:52 > 0:38:56Government about. It's not axiomatic? There is a difference
0:38:56 > 0:39:02between a country that decides it wants independence, which is its
0:39:02 > 0:39:05right to vote on. A difference between that and a country deciding
0:39:05 > 0:39:10alongside other countries in a currency bloc about whether the
0:39:10 > 0:39:14rest of the countries in that pound area want Scotland to remain within
0:39:14 > 0:39:21it. It would be a rough little negotiation. I think what it shows
0:39:21 > 0:39:24is that there are a number of very serious, important questions that
0:39:24 > 0:39:28will arise as part of the independence, which is is it is
0:39:28 > 0:39:36better to have it sooner. Kelvin MacKenzie you have been silent for
0:39:36 > 0:39:39a very long time. I don't want to see the family fallouts. I don't
0:39:39 > 0:39:44know whether anyone has tried to pass a Scottish five pound note in
0:39:44 > 0:39:49London, which is a big enough problem. I wonder what trying to
0:39:49 > 0:39:59pass off a Scottish euro would be like. There isn't any such thing,
0:39:59 > 0:40:02
0:40:02 > 0:40:06as you well know. There might well be. My sense about England right
0:40:06 > 0:40:10now is that they wish Scotland to be independent. They want them to
0:40:10 > 0:40:14go out there and make their way in the world and see if they are as
0:40:14 > 0:40:19clever as they believe they are and personally I wish them well.
0:40:19 > 0:40:24have got to move on. I know you all have much more to say and no doubt
0:40:24 > 0:40:27we'll come back to it many, many times, but Question Time depends on
0:40:27 > 0:40:37answering questions from the audience. If you are twittering
0:40:37 > 0:40:39
0:40:39 > 0:40:45remember the hash tag: A question from Jessica Caruth. Can the
0:40:45 > 0:40:49tabloids survive the Leveson Inquiry? Douglas Alexander. You
0:40:49 > 0:40:53have heard what has been going on this week. And all the allegations,
0:40:53 > 0:40:56this week, the last two months. What do you make? The biggest
0:40:56 > 0:41:00threat is not the inquiry, but the fact that increasing numbers of
0:41:00 > 0:41:04people are choosing not to buy newspapers. It is the logic of
0:41:04 > 0:41:10economics that is causing such difficulties for newspapers, rather
0:41:10 > 0:41:13than an inquiry which I think was necessary and overdue. I think when
0:41:13 > 0:41:17we see what emerged last summer in terms of hacking, it was right and
0:41:17 > 0:41:22necessary that action be taken. Not because celebrities or politicians
0:41:22 > 0:41:27needed to be protected, but as we have seen in the inquiry, because
0:41:27 > 0:41:37ordinary people had their lives torn apart by practises and ethics
0:41:37 > 0:41:38
0:41:38 > 0:41:40that are unjies final. I don't think responsible -- unjustifiable.
0:41:40 > 0:41:46I don't think responsible newspapers have a thing to worry
0:41:46 > 0:41:50about. We need a fearless and independent press. It's not a
0:41:50 > 0:41:54popular thing to say, but we need good journalists holding public
0:41:54 > 0:41:59figures and others to account. Uncovering wrongdoing. Journalism
0:41:59 > 0:42:05matters, but my sense is that the journalism of the future is not
0:42:05 > 0:42:15necessarily going to be bearing much resemblance to that which we
0:42:15 > 0:42:16
0:42:16 > 0:42:20grew up. Younger people find it odd to pay for their news. In that
0:42:20 > 0:42:28sense I think it's economics not the inquiry that journalists have
0:42:28 > 0:42:30to worry about it. Kelvin MacKenzie, you appeared before Leveson. Your
0:42:30 > 0:42:35music-hall act is on YouTube doing your John Major, for anyone who
0:42:35 > 0:42:39wants to see it. What do you make of the effect of Leveson? You
0:42:39 > 0:42:43seemed to rather give up the ghost and say that newspapers should be
0:42:43 > 0:42:46fined if they gave false information to the PCC and all
0:42:46 > 0:42:50that? That's not giving up the ghost. I was asked to make a
0:42:50 > 0:42:56suggestion, which I thought might be helpful and that was my
0:42:56 > 0:43:00suggestion, that since newspapers are commercial entities that if
0:43:00 > 0:43:05they did something which misled the regulator, they should be fined in
0:43:05 > 0:43:10the same way as they would be fined by Ofcom. The state would come in?
0:43:10 > 0:43:16Not necessarily, but there would be a sort of arrangement. I suspect
0:43:16 > 0:43:20that is what will happen. I do not expect Lord Leveson to come back
0:43:20 > 0:43:24with licencing journalists or anything like that. I don't think
0:43:24 > 0:43:27it's happening. Nor do I believe, in a sense it's going to fight an
0:43:27 > 0:43:32old battle - there was an organised criminality. I don't know how many
0:43:32 > 0:43:34people have been arrested so far. 17 people arrested and when they
0:43:34 > 0:43:43start rounding up the rest of the police officers I suspect that
0:43:43 > 0:43:48number may well go into the mid-20s. This investigation by the police is
0:43:48 > 0:43:52the biggest single investigation by money in the history of the Met. It
0:43:52 > 0:43:56is bigger than - it's bigger than Lockerbie and that kind of thing
0:43:56 > 0:44:01and the great train robbery. This has been taken seriously. On the
0:44:01 > 0:44:08question of what is the future of news - news can be delivered in
0:44:08 > 0:44:13lots of different ways now. I agree. For newspapers, these are tough
0:44:13 > 0:44:16times. However, if you are going to have news, you are still going to
0:44:16 > 0:44:21need journalists and in a sense they are going to have to be
0:44:21 > 0:44:26continued to be regulated. I do not believe that Lord Leveson, who
0:44:26 > 0:44:29after all has made his entire career, out of the analysis of free
0:44:29 > 0:44:35speech, the ability to go into a witness box and listen to evidence,
0:44:35 > 0:44:38I do not believe he is going to do anything to curtail it and the Lord
0:44:38 > 0:44:42Chief Justice has already made that clear. This is a massive wake-up
0:44:42 > 0:44:48call. Perhaps it's a wake-up call for people like me. Certainly it is
0:44:48 > 0:44:58for all the editors that I know, that the game has changed and that
0:44:58 > 0:45:07
0:45:07 > 0:45:14the consumer himself or herself What did you make of what the
0:45:14 > 0:45:21Editor of the Daily Express said today? He described the Daily Mail
0:45:21 > 0:45:26as Britain's worst enemy, the tone of everything was so negative.
0:45:26 > 0:45:29he's a competitor, he's hardly likely to say it's the greatest
0:45:29 > 0:45:34paper under God's earth, he owns the Daily Express. The reality is
0:45:34 > 0:45:38that the Daily Mail was massively successful, a counterer cyclical,
0:45:38 > 0:45:44by the way, to the rest of the newspaper industry, selling well
0:45:44 > 0:45:48over two million a day and, Richard Desmond who I know and like, his
0:45:48 > 0:45:52paper sells 600,000. So the consumer is deciding what they
0:45:52 > 0:46:00prefer. Is there such a thing as a
0:46:00 > 0:46:05responsible editor any more though? Kelvin was when he was at the Sun?
0:46:05 > 0:46:08If somebody comes with a story, the paper will probably run it because
0:46:08 > 0:46:11they'll think, if they don't come to us, they'll go to another
0:46:11 > 0:46:15newspaper. Where does this stop? Is it our fault because that's what we
0:46:15 > 0:46:19want to read or your fault because you are publishing it? Kelvin gave
0:46:19 > 0:46:24in his submission to Leveson, he said if a story sounded right, it
0:46:24 > 0:46:29probably was right and we'd lob it in and I didn't spend too much time
0:46:29 > 0:46:39pondering the ethics of how the story was gained. This is all you,
0:46:39 > 0:46:42
0:46:42 > 0:46:51isn't it? Yes. You can watch it on ub tube. We felt -- ub tube. It's a
0:46:51 > 0:46:56very cavalier attitude -- YouTube. It's uncomfortable to me. I can't
0:46:56 > 0:47:00disagree with a word Kelvin's just said. Kelvin, just because the
0:47:00 > 0:47:03question was would the tabloids survive, not would the news survive
0:47:03 > 0:47:09- news will always survive and it grows in all sorts of different
0:47:09 > 0:47:12ways in Twitter and the other new media ways as well, but will the
0:47:12 > 0:47:17tabloids survive. My worry is that the tabloids will be the last to
0:47:17 > 0:47:21survive. The people who'll go first with the broad sheets, the serious
0:47:21 > 0:47:24newspapers, for the reason Douglas talked about, people aren't paying
0:47:24 > 0:47:27for newspapers any more. The reality is, if you are in
0:47:27 > 0:47:31newspapers on the one hand and books, and I write books, better
0:47:31 > 0:47:36get used to the fact that the artefact, the piece of paper, is
0:47:36 > 0:47:40going to be a thing of the past in ten or 15 years. That is one of the
0:47:40 > 0:47:45reasons why the tabloid press has gone down market. That's one of the
0:47:45 > 0:47:48reasons why they've broken some of the rules. The way you sell in this
0:47:48 > 0:47:52increasingly competitive market place, is to be more sensationalist.
0:47:52 > 0:47:55That doesn't sound as though I'm with Kelvin but I am to this extent.
0:47:55 > 0:47:59I think the press is properly called the fourth estate. It holds
0:47:59 > 0:48:03us to account. Frankly, I am dissatisfied that our Parliament is
0:48:03 > 0:48:06good enough at holding the executive to account. We need a
0:48:06 > 0:48:09powerful press. Sometimes, and this is a rather unusual thing perhaps
0:48:09 > 0:48:13for me to say, sometimes I think having a powerful press that is
0:48:13 > 0:48:16prepared to investigate means taking the risk of having from time
0:48:16 > 0:48:20to time an irresponsible press. Now, they've gone beyond the limits,
0:48:20 > 0:48:24they have to be, but I would be wholly opposed to any legislative
0:48:24 > 0:48:31control of our press. We have to find other means to do this. The
0:48:31 > 0:48:35preservation of the right of free speech, even especially win it's
0:48:35 > 0:48:42uncomfortable to those in power is a crucial part of our democracy.
0:48:42 > 0:48:48I'm clear Leveson will not go that far but there is a danger that the
0:48:48 > 0:48:53pendulum will be allowed to swing too far and I strongly oppose it.
0:48:53 > 0:48:58You at the very back? Kelvin said the game has changed. Isn't that
0:48:58 > 0:49:01just it, that the press seem to act as if it's a game? Where are the
0:49:01 > 0:49:07morals and responsibilities for the things they print and where's that
0:49:07 > 0:49:11gone and how do we get that back? APPLAUSE
0:49:11 > 0:49:17Justine Greening? Part of this question is what sort of a press do
0:49:17 > 0:49:20we think we deserve? I think at the end of the day, part of what the
0:49:20 > 0:49:23Leveson Inquiry can do is to part to build some trust between the
0:49:23 > 0:49:28public and the newspapers they rely on to get their news from. One of
0:49:28 > 0:49:31the questions we've all got to ask ourselves is, what standards of
0:49:31 > 0:49:36journalism do we want and if we are buying papers that we know to have
0:49:36 > 0:49:40low standards, in a sense, we are going to perpetuate that. I
0:49:40 > 0:49:44actually hope, in many respects, that the broad sheets, where there
0:49:44 > 0:49:49is more investment, can keep going. But I think what Leveson is doing
0:49:49 > 0:49:52is absolutely right. It's time we got to the bottom of all of this.
0:49:52 > 0:49:55There are clearly sharp practises that have happened across the
0:49:55 > 0:49:59industry, not just necessarily in the tabloids. We have got to get
0:49:59 > 0:50:02all of that out in the open, see what Lord Leveson thinks. He'll
0:50:02 > 0:50:05report back in September this year and then I think we'll have some
0:50:05 > 0:50:08very difficult discussions around how we can make sure we protect the
0:50:08 > 0:50:13freedom of the press but make sure the press have some standards that
0:50:13 > 0:50:17we can really rely on. Remember, it's not only about the Hugh Grants
0:50:17 > 0:50:21of this world. One of the important modules of this will be the
0:50:21 > 0:50:28relationship between the press and the politicians, including, of
0:50:28 > 0:50:31course, your own Prime Minister, the leader of Conservative Party
0:50:31 > 0:50:35who's wooed the Murdoch empiefr then immediately, as the wind
0:50:35 > 0:50:39changed in its direction, called in Leveson as it began to come
0:50:39 > 0:50:45slightly close on him -- Murdoch empire. He'll be in big trouble
0:50:45 > 0:50:48himself and I suspect Gordon Brown, Tony Blair and the others will have
0:50:48 > 0:50:51serious questions to answer. I believe there should be a massive
0:50:51 > 0:50:56separation between the press and the politicians, rather than
0:50:56 > 0:51:02everybody getting into each other's bed all the time. Nicola Sturgeon
0:51:02 > 0:51:06wooed Murdoch as well didn't you? You are blushing? No, the Sun
0:51:06 > 0:51:10backed the SNP in the election. there were no communications
0:51:10 > 0:51:13between... I think any politician that would sit here and try to say
0:51:13 > 0:51:16they had no conversations with the Murdoch press would be telling you
0:51:16 > 0:51:18untruths. We all did. That's one thing that politicians have to
0:51:18 > 0:51:21reflecten in terms of the relationship between politicians
0:51:21 > 0:51:29and the press. I don't think there's anybody who doesn't have
0:51:29 > 0:51:32some lessons to learn about what we saw unfold last year. P tabloids
0:51:32 > 0:51:38brought Leveson on themselves, no two ways about that. I think it was
0:51:38 > 0:51:41Paddy that said one of the ironies I suppose is that the way they were
0:51:41 > 0:51:45hounding people who perhaps should have been held to account to some
0:51:45 > 0:51:49extent, those people were getting off the hook. I hope Leveson does
0:51:49 > 0:51:53act to improve the standards by which the tabloids operate, but
0:51:53 > 0:51:56others have said it before, Leveson's not the big challenge for
0:51:56 > 0:51:59the traditional media, that's the different ways in which people
0:51:59 > 0:52:03access news. As a politician who used to buy piles of newspapers
0:52:03 > 0:52:07every day, I don't buy newspapers like that any more, I get most of
0:52:07 > 0:52:12my news online. A few years' time, I doubt there will be many people
0:52:12 > 0:52:15picking up hard copies of newspapers. Those who adapt to that
0:52:15 > 0:52:19will survive, those who don't won't. I believe passionately, like
0:52:19 > 0:52:23everybody does, in a free press, but that can come in many ways and
0:52:23 > 0:52:28I think everybody in the media has to think very hard about how they
0:52:28 > 0:52:32adapt to that if they are going to Suhr vie. Time for one more
0:52:32 > 0:52:37question -- survive. Alison McMillan? Should the NHS be
0:52:37 > 0:52:41paying for the removal potentially for faulty breast implants
0:52:41 > 0:52:48purchased privately for cosmetic reasons? A very complex question to
0:52:48 > 0:52:54answer in a short time. The news today that Andrew Lansley supports
0:52:54 > 0:52:57the NHS with these cosmetic breast implants that are dangerous or
0:52:57 > 0:53:01supposedly dangerous. Justine Greening, is it right for the NHS
0:53:01 > 0:53:05to pay for that and should they not pay for a replacement or something?
0:53:05 > 0:53:09I gather they are only going to pay for removal of what could be
0:53:09 > 0:53:12dangerous. Is that sensible or practical? For women who've had a
0:53:12 > 0:53:18breast implant on the NHS, we are offering to have that replaced by
0:53:18 > 0:53:24the NHS if it's a PIP implant. For women who've had that done
0:53:25 > 0:53:28privately, we want to see their private health care companies who
0:53:28 > 0:53:34did that operation remove the breast implant if there is a
0:53:34 > 0:53:39medical opinion that says that is the right thing to do. If the
0:53:39 > 0:53:43private provider refuses to do that or cannot do that, then the NHS
0:53:43 > 0:53:47will, if there's a clinical opinion that it's needed, remove the
0:53:47 > 0:53:51implant. But we'll seek to get the costs of those back from the
0:53:51 > 0:53:54private sector provider who should have done that operation. Who say
0:53:54 > 0:53:58they are going broke and can't afford to do it so you won't get
0:53:58 > 0:54:01much back, will you? We'll try to get the money back that we've tried
0:54:01 > 0:54:04to invest. The key thing is to understand what the clinical need
0:54:04 > 0:54:10is of the patient concerned. At the end of the day, having an operation
0:54:10 > 0:54:14is a risky matter in itself, so whatever the outcome, it has to be
0:54:14 > 0:54:18one based on a clinical diagnosis and that has some agreement with
0:54:18 > 0:54:23the patient. Are you a medical doctor? Yes, I am. What is your
0:54:23 > 0:54:27view? This question was posed purely as a provocative question
0:54:27 > 0:54:30and I'm not in that field because I couldn't make those decisions, so
0:54:30 > 0:54:34I'm asking that question as a member of the public, as a taxpayer,
0:54:34 > 0:54:37and I think I'm trying to propose the question in the future we are
0:54:37 > 0:54:42going to have to make choices in the NHS and we are going to have to
0:54:42 > 0:54:47decide how to spend the funding in the NHS as the public and as
0:54:47 > 0:54:52taxpayer. You talk about people who had it done privately for cosmetic
0:54:52 > 0:54:56reasons as though somehow this was less worthy of NHS support, is that
0:54:56 > 0:55:00what your implication is? question was posed, it doesn't
0:55:00 > 0:55:06express my opinion and my one solution would be as pop posed that,
0:55:06 > 0:55:11as a caring society, we should help these people, we can provide the
0:55:11 > 0:55:13service on the NHS but we should try and recoup the costs from the
0:55:13 > 0:55:20private industry. Nicola Sturgeon, you're Health Secretary for
0:55:20 > 0:55:25Scotland as well? I am. What do you think Our position is substantially
0:55:25 > 0:55:28the same as the UK Government. For me, the well-being of the woman is
0:55:28 > 0:55:31absolutely paramount. That's what's most important. In Scotland, we
0:55:31 > 0:55:35don't think, as far as we can tell that, the NHS implanted PIP
0:55:35 > 0:55:39implants into any woman, but if it's found that that has been the
0:55:39 > 0:55:44case, the NHS will take full responsibility. Where a woman is
0:55:44 > 0:55:48left high and dry by a private provider, the NHS will also provide
0:55:48 > 0:55:53support, but make no mistake, I believe that the private providers
0:55:53 > 0:55:58do have a moral duty to take responsibility. I don't believe the
0:55:58 > 0:56:02NHS should be picking up the tab for this. APPLAUSE
0:56:02 > 0:56:06For me, this is one of the problems of private medicine. The private
0:56:06 > 0:56:10companies make the money when they do the operations. But when
0:56:10 > 0:56:15something goes wrong, they often expect the NHS to pick up the
0:56:15 > 0:56:18pieces. It's one of the many reasons I don't believe in the
0:56:18 > 0:56:22privatisation of the Health Service. Presumably the doctors can be sued?
0:56:22 > 0:56:25We have only got a minute left so I'm going to have to be brief here.
0:56:25 > 0:56:29That is true, but let's just recognise there is a moral
0:56:29 > 0:56:33obligation on the private providers, the private care homes and so on,
0:56:33 > 0:56:37but there's also a moral obligation I think that rests with the health
0:56:37 > 0:56:41and medicines and health care Regulatory Authority that said
0:56:41 > 0:56:45these implants were fit for purpose. I can see where the NHS is coming
0:56:45 > 0:56:48from and Lansley too, but at the end of the day, I think the phrase
0:56:48 > 0:56:52that both Justine and Nicola used, which is the needs of the patient
0:56:52 > 0:56:55must come first, is right, I think the moral and maybe legal
0:56:55 > 0:57:01obligation is quite mixed here, so at the end of the day, my guess is
0:57:01 > 0:57:05the NHS will end up having to pick up those that can't be done by any
0:57:05 > 0:57:10other means. Shocking. Last night on the BBC 10 o'clock news they had
0:57:10 > 0:57:14a smug chairman many there of one of the companies that had put the
0:57:14 > 0:57:18implants in simply saying, we haven't got the money and that's
0:57:18 > 0:57:23the end of it. B what I can't understand is why they weren't
0:57:23 > 0:57:27insured and secondly, I think this should be tested. These guys were
0:57:27 > 0:57:32literally, the mark-up on those breast implants is fantastic.
0:57:32 > 0:57:38They've made a lot of money, I think we should go after them and
0:57:38 > 0:57:41the directors. There's a very good point made, not very often aI agree
0:57:41 > 0:57:44with Government ministers but if somebody sells you a car and the
0:57:44 > 0:57:47clutch doesn't work, you don't say it wasn't our clutch, you got it
0:57:47 > 0:57:51from Germany or something like that, so we should pursue these people
0:57:51 > 0:57:55and make them pay and if they are not going to, we should bankrupt
0:57:55 > 0:57:59them and flog their assets and hand out the money.
0:57:59 > 0:58:03Douglas Alexander, very briefly? Very briefly, as you have heard,
0:58:03 > 0:58:07there's not much that the panel agree on. This is one of them, the
0:58:07 > 0:58:11safety and clinical needs of the women has to come first. There is a
0:58:11 > 0:58:16moral obligation on the private providers and North and South of
0:58:16 > 0:58:20the border, the Government has to meet the obligations. Our hour is
0:58:20 > 0:58:23up. Next week, we'll be in Shrewsbury, the week after that,
0:58:23 > 0:58:27Plymouth. If you want to come to either
0:58:27 > 0:58:34programme, give us a call, go to the website if it's easier or ring
0:58:34 > 0:58:42us. It would be good to see you and take part in the vigorous debate