:00:18. > :00:24.Tonight we are in Southport and welcome to Question Time.
:00:24. > :00:28.And with me on on the panel the International Development Minister,
:00:28. > :00:34.Alan Duncan, Shadow Justice Secretary, Sadiq Khan, Digby Jones,
:00:34. > :00:37.forger head of the CBI, who beats the drum for British business. A
:00:37. > :00:43.campaigns director of the TaxPayers' Alliance, boon boon
:00:43. > :00:52.boongs and the creator of Grange Hill, Brookside and Hollyoaks, Phil
:00:52. > :00:56.Redmond. -- TaxPayers' Alliance, Emma Boon, and the creator of
:00:56. > :01:02.Grange Hill, Brookside and Hollyoaks oaks, Phil Redmond.
:01:02. > :01:08.APPLAUSE Our first question is from Alan Bell. Are Mr Goodwin and Mr
:01:08. > :01:11.Hester victims of a lynch mob mentality. Sir Fred Goodwin
:01:11. > :01:16.stripped of his knighthood and Stephen Hester not getting his
:01:16. > :01:23.bonus. Victims of a lynch mentality? I don't think they have
:01:23. > :01:28.been. If you see the reasons why the Queen decided to take away Fred
:01:28. > :01:33.Goodwin's knighthood. She decided did she? Indeed. She could have
:01:33. > :01:37.refused it? She could have said, "I like the man." Are you sure of
:01:37. > :01:42.that? I'm positive, David. And the forfeiture committee are not made
:01:42. > :01:47.up of people from a village with pitch force. They are senior civil
:01:47. > :01:52.servants, senior lawyers. They looked at the evidence and as far
:01:52. > :01:56.as Fred Goodwin was concerned there was a 500 page sobering report from
:01:57. > :02:01.the FSA and the Treasury committee which was very critical about the
:02:01. > :02:07.dominant role played by Fred Goodwin which led to us the
:02:07. > :02:10.taxpayers having to pay �45 billion to bail out the Royal Bank of
:02:10. > :02:14.Scotland as a direct consequence of the decision he made to take over
:02:14. > :02:18.Amro, which meant they bought into the sub-prime mortgage. As far as
:02:18. > :02:22.Stephen Hester is concerned, he did the right thing in deciding not to
:02:22. > :02:28.accept the almost �1 million bonus. I wish the Prime Minister had used
:02:28. > :02:33.the power he had, the fact that we are shareholders, 84% of that
:02:33. > :02:38.company is owned by British taxpayers and we have a discretion
:02:38. > :02:41.to design how much bonus he gets. I don't think the citeteria to
:02:41. > :02:45.justify a bonus was met and the Prime Minister should have said
:02:45. > :02:49.know. But Fred Goodwin to me, of course these are important issues,
:02:49. > :02:54.but I'm interested in the future. What we need to do is change the
:02:54. > :02:59.culture in our boardrooms to bring about responsibility and restraint.
:02:59. > :03:03.Change the culture whereby somebody thinks it is acceptable where there
:03:03. > :03:08.hasn't been exceptional performance to receive an award. Let's deal
:03:08. > :03:12.with the lynch mob mentality bit. Alan Duncan. It is undenyable that
:03:12. > :03:17.there are some aspects of the coverage of this issue over the
:03:17. > :03:21.last few weeks and months which has become very unpleasantly personal
:03:21. > :03:25.and venomous and guz have the feeling of a lynch -- and does have
:03:25. > :03:29.the feeling of a lynch mob. Chancellor of the Exchequer for
:03:29. > :03:36.instance, who said he had to lose his knighthood and it was a good
:03:36. > :03:40.thing he did, is that the type of person you are thinking of? I think
:03:40. > :03:46.it is right he lost his knighthood for these reasons. He was give an
:03:46. > :03:52.knighthood for services to banking. The bank went bust and he was sent
:03:52. > :03:55.a bill for �45 million. I don't think he ever said sorry. The
:03:55. > :03:58.Financial Services Authority has written a detailed report which has
:03:58. > :04:03.been very critical of him personally. So I think in this case
:04:03. > :04:08.it was right that it should go. Where it was lynch mob? Hold on. It
:04:08. > :04:12.doesn't mean it has to be accompanied by such echoes in the
:04:12. > :04:17.papers of hatred. Let me come to the Stephen Hester point. There's a
:04:17. > :04:20.massive difference between Fred Goodwin and Stephen Hester. Fred
:04:20. > :04:24.Goodwin can be reasonably accused of having caused the problem.
:04:24. > :04:28.Stephen Hester is a senior industrialist who has come to pick
:04:28. > :04:33.up the mess. I think now to accuse him of being in the same mould as
:04:33. > :04:37.those people who caused the mess is unjust. I want to see a Royal Bank
:04:37. > :04:42.of Scotland that instead of demanding �45 billion off the
:04:42. > :04:47.taxpayer can be a successful company, go back into private
:04:47. > :04:51.ownership and return many tens of billions to this country. You think
:04:51. > :04:56.they should have had the bonus? don't like bonuses that are paid
:04:56. > :05:05.short term in cash. I think that bonuses should be long-term in
:05:05. > :05:08.shares, so that people can't just make short-term money out of
:05:08. > :05:12.playing... Let me follow the logic through. You shouldn't suddenly be
:05:12. > :05:17.able to coin it by making short- term profits out of playing with
:05:17. > :05:21.other people's money. What you ought to be able to to be rewarded
:05:22. > :05:27.for is exceptional performance over the long term and recognised in the
:05:27. > :05:32.share price. Should he have got his bonus in the form it was given to
:05:32. > :05:37.him? It is right that somebody like him should be paid in shares but
:05:38. > :05:44.not sudden extra lumps of cash. Digby Jones. I do think there is
:05:44. > :05:49.the faint whiff of the lynch mob of the village green on this generally.
:05:49. > :05:55.We've got to firstly divide between the emotion and how this plays in
:05:55. > :06:01.the medium to long term. Secondly, we have got to not lump everybody
:06:01. > :06:05.together. I personally think a man who can take as the CEO, not acting
:06:05. > :06:10.on his own by a mile. There were some nipbgts on that board who
:06:10. > :06:13.agreed to what he did. There were knights sitting in the Financial
:06:13. > :06:19.Services Authority who consented to what he did, all over thespect run
:06:19. > :06:24.who were basking in the reflected glory of this man who was making
:06:24. > :06:29.this superbank. So there's a bit of the pick out and smack that one. I
:06:29. > :06:34.personally am pleased that this guy's lost his knighthood. I an
:06:34. > :06:39.incredibly disturbed about the way it happened. Because to say, well,
:06:39. > :06:44.what are the rules about when someone loses it was always commit
:06:44. > :06:50.a criminal offence. Suddenly because of this enormous
:06:50. > :06:55.vilification, no, we'll move those rules and make other rules that.
:06:55. > :07:04.Might mean that moving on we should have new rules, perhaps not a
:07:04. > :07:14.criminal offence but add to that the o probery um as a trade body
:07:14. > :07:15.
:07:15. > :07:22.like the FSA. The people who sat on that... APPLAUSE The people who sat
:07:22. > :07:26.on that forfeiture committee, some of them are permanent secretariess,
:07:26. > :07:29.very talented, good, decent civil servants but they got their
:07:29. > :07:34.knighthoods because they did their job. So it is not just business
:07:34. > :07:38.that this happens to. I was like to see an honours system, if we can
:07:38. > :07:43.learn out of this, where you have to do something over and above what
:07:43. > :07:48.you are paid for. Charitable works, you might have charitable effort or
:07:48. > :07:52.whatever. The one thing that worries me about that is round the
:07:53. > :07:56.world firstly with respect, Sir, you lumped Goodwin and Hester
:07:56. > :07:59.together. Hester wasn't even a banker when all this was happening.
:07:59. > :08:03.He was working in another aspect of the economy. He's been asked to
:08:03. > :08:08.clean up the mess. If what we are going to end up with is people
:08:08. > :08:12.overseas, people with talent coming out of education here thinking, you
:08:12. > :08:20.actually get in there after all the mess, you are paid to clear it up
:08:20. > :08:26.and you know what they do? They vilify. You know what they call a
:08:26. > :08:30.bank run by a civil servant - the Soviet Union. You don't want that.
:08:30. > :08:38.He lurched them together only that they were victims of the lynch men
:08:38. > :08:43.talents. I'm a civil servant and I'm... A Dame will you be, not a
:08:43. > :08:47.knight. I'm facing a pay freeze, a pay cam to come and performance pay
:08:47. > :08:53.has been frozen in the organisation I work for. You said that Hester,
:08:53. > :08:58.this wasn't his fault. Well it is not my fault either and my pay's
:08:58. > :09:06.being frozen. If we are really all in it together people at the top
:09:06. > :09:10.need to be seen to conforming to the people who've got less.
:09:10. > :09:14.APPLAUSE I agree with your point that those at the top have to lead
:09:14. > :09:19.from the front. I think that some of those who are higher paid in our
:09:19. > :09:22.Civil Service could well take a pay cut. To return to Alan's question
:09:22. > :09:27.about Fred Goodwin, I think we should have declarations of
:09:27. > :09:31.interest here. Speaking as a common miss here I have the right
:09:31. > :09:38.honourable on my left, another here, you are a Lord aren't you? I was
:09:38. > :09:46.when I came in. A CBE. I think we are the only commoners around this
:09:46. > :09:51.table. And long may it remain like that. And your point is? You are
:09:51. > :09:55.closer to getting a knighthood than I am. I think it is right that
:09:55. > :09:59.Goodwin lost his knighthood. This is silly to talk about this as
:09:59. > :10:05.though it is a lynch mob. All we are saying is you can't call
:10:05. > :10:09.yourself Sir any more. Taxpayers now are still picking up the pieces,
:10:09. > :10:14.still paying for the mistakes that he made. Why should he be allowed
:10:14. > :10:22.to walk around and call himself Sir still? It is completely
:10:22. > :10:28.unacceptable. APPLAUSE I couldn't care less about his knighthood
:10:28. > :10:37.being taken away E I would like him to pay back some of his �20 million
:10:37. > :10:43.pension. APPLAUSE I think there's a lot to pick out of all of that and
:10:43. > :10:46.a lot to agree with, but back to a specific question. I think the real
:10:47. > :10:51.problem is that these two guys have been demonised to run with a
:10:51. > :10:54.popular news agenda. That's what we've got to be careful of. You are
:10:54. > :10:58.right about people at the top have got to lead and make sure that the
:10:58. > :11:04.system is fair. The real issue is the structural problem and how did
:11:04. > :11:08.we get into it. I don't think we should be allowed, or we shouldn't
:11:08. > :11:12.allow the news media to deflect from that problem, which has still
:11:12. > :11:17.got to be solved. They are two separate cases. I today found
:11:17. > :11:22.myself in a very strange position of having a bit of sympathy for a
:11:22. > :11:27.banker. I read about the job that Hester has, which is a very high-
:11:27. > :11:34.paid job with guaranteed rewards. He came to take on this toxic job
:11:34. > :11:37.of trying to rescue RBS. You've got to be very careful about this when
:11:37. > :11:42.people are coming in and trying to do a job on behalf of the public
:11:42. > :11:47.remember, that you are going to be vilified if you don't take the can
:11:47. > :11:52.for something that happened in New York. We've got to keep coming back
:11:52. > :12:02.to our politicians and saying how did you let I happen? How did you
:12:02. > :12:02.
:12:02. > :12:08.let it happen? APPLAUSE I could not agree more with what you just said.
:12:08. > :12:10.Politicians are as much to blame for this. The toxic combination of
:12:10. > :12:15.politicians and bankers are what have caused this problem. What we
:12:15. > :12:19.need as much from politicians as this hall is asking for from
:12:19. > :12:22.bankers is an apology and understanding for what caused our
:12:22. > :12:26.economic problem. Still in the Labour Party you have deficit
:12:26. > :12:31.denial, people who say it wasn't their fault. It most certainly was.
:12:31. > :12:36.And if you read and want to join this together, the FSA report, it
:12:36. > :12:41.specifically blames Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and Ed Balls for the
:12:41. > :12:49.way they failed to control the banks and were profligate. You are
:12:49. > :12:55.saying it was the FSA? It was a combination. That's not my reading
:12:55. > :13:01.of the report but there'll be another report on the Lloyds TSB
:13:01. > :13:06.and HBOS, where as taxpayers we had to bail that out as well. Phil is
:13:06. > :13:10.right, we can't pick them off one by one and take away knighthoods.
:13:10. > :13:15.It is right that they should be culpable and pay for that but we
:13:15. > :13:19.need to change the structure. We need transparency. The lady who
:13:19. > :13:25.said we are all This Week together is right. We need to know what is
:13:25. > :13:28.expected of us. We all do a day's job and get paid for that. The
:13:28. > :13:35.exceptional thing that we do should lead to a bonus. The problem that
:13:35. > :13:41.those who receive these huge bonuss, they receive a huge salary and the
:13:41. > :13:48.public owns them. They are public servants, so the 1% freeze that you
:13:48. > :13:54.have to endure, the chief executive and the RBS, which are owned by the
:13:54. > :13:58.public as well. You get around the world and trying to say generate
:13:58. > :14:02.money in Britain to pay for schools and hospitals, one of the great
:14:02. > :14:05.attractions we have is that we have the rule of law, we have
:14:05. > :14:10.predictable rules and we run our society and economy accordingly. If,
:14:10. > :14:15.no matter how much it sticks in the craw, if what we do and is seen
:14:15. > :14:20.around the world as saying, well, we recruited this guy, as Phil said,
:14:20. > :14:24.we got him out of somewhere where he was highly paid. These are the
:14:24. > :14:28.criteria and if we then say, by the way, because of this enormous
:14:28. > :14:33.public opinion you are not going to have it. The one problem you will
:14:33. > :14:38.have, and my sympathy is with you, madam, is somewhere out in the
:14:38. > :14:40.world they will say don't come to Britain to invest your money,
:14:40. > :14:49.because they will tear up your contract.
:14:49. > :14:52.He should have said this bonus here, I will give it to cancer research
:14:52. > :14:59.in the morning and bankers would be seen to be socially responsible.
:14:59. > :15:04.Before you go, can I ask all panellists to speak for slightly
:15:04. > :15:10.less long or we will get through one question. The woman up there
:15:10. > :15:13.and then to you. Alan Duncan has already contradicted himself, he
:15:13. > :15:17.has said let's not make this personal and then listed personal
:15:17. > :15:21.names from the Labour Party. We need to make this personal. If the
:15:21. > :15:25.man hasn't done - I am a teacher, if I don't do my job properly, I
:15:25. > :15:30.don't want a bonus for doing my job but I will get sacked if I don't do
:15:30. > :15:33.my job properly. A man on ten times my salary has done a rubbish job.
:15:33. > :15:40.It's ridiculous. We need to make it personal. It is personal.
:15:40. > :15:44.APPLAUSE. I am not against the fact that Fred
:15:44. > :15:48.Goodwin has lost his knighthood at all but the fact is, like Digby
:15:48. > :15:53.Jones said, he's not committed any criminal offence. The fact is there
:15:53. > :15:57.are four serving peers in the House of Lords that have served time in
:15:57. > :16:00.prison for offences and served time for it. If we are going - if what
:16:00. > :16:10.is right for one should be right for the other people and that's
:16:10. > :16:11.
:16:11. > :16:16.what I am trying to say. APPLAUSE. Sadiq Khan, you are the shadow
:16:16. > :16:23.Justice Secretary, why is it that peers can go to jail and go back,
:16:23. > :16:28.Lord Archer, Lord Taylor, and this man gets stripped of his
:16:28. > :16:33.knighthood? It's wrong t needs to change. I didn't ask whether it was
:16:33. > :16:37.right or wrong, why does it happen? Because the law doesn't a- the
:16:37. > :16:42.parliament... Change the law. You are the politicians, change the law.
:16:42. > :16:46.We should change the law. In other words t would be illegal, you can't
:16:46. > :16:50.just strip them of a peerage? MPs go to prison for 12 months or
:16:50. > :16:57.more they can't go back to the Commons. Peers can. Very brief,
:16:57. > :17:02.please. But he said that the chief executive for RBS should get his
:17:02. > :17:08.bonus, even though the share prices of RBS are 40% low are than when he
:17:08. > :17:13.took over. That's not the point. Even though lending... Your
:17:13. > :17:20.Government, not their Government, set terms that didn't include that.
:17:20. > :17:24.The success and 84%... We did. 84% of the shareholders of the British
:17:24. > :17:31.public, we have every year a meeting, they can say no. Correct
:17:31. > :17:35.me if I am wrong, you were a Minister. Not at the time. You got
:17:35. > :17:41.your peerage from Labour. Not at the time Steven Hester was
:17:41. > :17:45.recruited. Before that. David, you can't look so surprised because I
:17:45. > :17:48.left Government, went to the cross- benches as an independent before
:17:48. > :17:55.Steven Hester was recruited, at least let's be factually accurate
:17:55. > :18:05.about it. If you are tweeting tonight, keep us trending. What is
:18:05. > :18:12.
:18:12. > :18:17.trending? I better learn quickly. Ask the panel to speak more briefly
:18:17. > :18:23.for our next question, if they would. Stuart Bennett. Why does
:18:23. > :18:26.India need our foreign aid when it has several billion pounds to spend
:18:26. > :18:32.on French fighter jets? The news, of course, today that the Indian
:18:32. > :18:36.Government is negotiating a �6.3 billion contract for French
:18:36. > :18:42.fighters when they're - we are the top of the list of those that give
:18:42. > :18:46.them foreign aid. Alan Duncan, you are the Minister, international
:18:46. > :18:51.development. India is the most difficult country to decide whether
:18:51. > :18:53.we should give aid to for that very reason. I think that we are leading
:18:53. > :18:57.the world in what we do in international development. I think
:18:57. > :19:03.we are right to spend the money we are spending. Many other countries
:19:03. > :19:08.are looking to us to see how to do it. Some people think we spend 20%
:19:08. > :19:12.of all Government spending on aid. In fact, it's over 1%. I think most
:19:12. > :19:16.people in this room would say if you were down to your last 100 quid
:19:16. > :19:20.would you give a found someone dying in the gutter or buried in an
:19:20. > :19:26.earthquake, yes, you would N the case of countries like Bangladesh,
:19:26. > :19:29.Nepal, it's blooming obvious that the poverty is so grinding, a
:19:30. > :19:33.civilised country will do what they can to help within those limits.
:19:33. > :19:38.With India, I absolutely admit that they are on the way up. Yes,
:19:38. > :19:42.they've got some billionaires, yes, they have communication satellites.
:19:42. > :19:48.Yes, they have defensive weapons. More billionaires than in this
:19:48. > :19:51.country. It's a a much bigger country. Numbers - let me complete
:19:51. > :19:54.the logic. If you look at the numbers in India and you take the
:19:55. > :19:59.three poorest states, there are more of the poorest people there
:19:59. > :20:03.than you have in the whole of sub- Saharan Africa. You can ignore them
:20:03. > :20:06.if you want because they have a nuclear weapon and want to buy
:20:06. > :20:12.fighter jets. If you ignore them the world is never ever going to
:20:12. > :20:16.get near meeting the millennium development goals set of the eight
:20:16. > :20:22.main poverty targets. It would mean that hundreds of thousands, if not
:20:22. > :20:26.millions of people, will die who otherwise could live on the back of
:20:26. > :20:30.the vaccinations, immunisations, teaching and food that would come
:20:30. > :20:36.through. Was there no assumption in giving aid you might be favoured in
:20:36. > :20:41.terms of trade at the same time? And I say that very directly. No.
:20:41. > :20:46.We do not link aid to trade. We hope that we can by having good
:20:46. > :20:51.relations overall with the country. And we can have competitive goods
:20:51. > :20:55.that can be sold into countries. We do not link aid with contracts. The
:20:55. > :21:00.thing about India, this is the difficult point, the clue is in the
:21:00. > :21:02.name on the tin. We call it the Department for International
:21:02. > :21:07.Development, not aid. We don't want countries to be there with their
:21:07. > :21:11.hand out forever. We want to make them able to live by their own
:21:11. > :21:15.means. That's why we are coming out of China, we have. We are coming
:21:15. > :21:19.out of Indonesia, Vietnam. We have come out of Russia. And in due
:21:19. > :21:24.course we will come out of India, because it is on an upward path and
:21:24. > :21:28.we should be very pleased that is the trajectory they're heading on.
:21:28. > :21:31.Emma Boon. It's all very well and good to say if you were down to
:21:31. > :21:35.your last 100 pounds would you give the last pound to someone who is
:21:35. > :21:40.poor, that's a nice idea. But really what we are talking about
:21:40. > :21:43.here is an absolutely huge international aid budget, whilst
:21:43. > :21:48.almost all the other budgets and spending, as many of you will know,
:21:48. > :21:52.is being cut. The international aid budget is growing. It's growing at
:21:52. > :21:57.quite a fast rate. Just freezing that budget would provide a very
:21:58. > :22:02.large saving for us as taxpayers. How much do you think it would
:22:02. > :22:07.save? If you know your facts, how many billions are we intending to
:22:07. > :22:13.spend extra on aid between now and 2013, let's see if you know.
:22:13. > :22:18.tell me what your aid budget is. You don't know and you give quotes
:22:18. > :22:22.to every single paper, damming aid. You cannot deny that the aid budget
:22:22. > :22:27.is growing and thish sue not that we don't want to help inoculate
:22:27. > :22:29.children, we don't want to give education to poor children in India.
:22:29. > :22:33.That's what you are saying. Everybody is more than happy to
:22:33. > :22:36.help in disaster zones. Taxpayers want their money to go on things
:22:36. > :22:39.like immunisation programmes, those are the sort of things when we feel
:22:39. > :22:44.we are getting good value. But sadly a lot of the aid programmes
:22:44. > :22:47.that we know about we have seen that money squandered. You don't
:22:47. > :22:51.know that. You assert this all the time in the papers with no
:22:51. > :22:55.supporting evidence. You accuse us of having bad aid when everything...
:22:55. > :23:00.India has a space programme. always quote the wrong figures. 1%
:23:00. > :23:04.is what we give. The Government in India is making the choice to spend
:23:04. > :23:07.money on a space programme, to spend money on fighter jets, when
:23:07. > :23:17.the India Government could make a choice to spend that money on its
:23:17. > :23:17.
:23:17. > :23:23.own poor people. APPLAUSE. Why are we paying for it?
:23:23. > :23:27.You, Sir. Before I progress any further I would like to ask who
:23:27. > :23:32.contributes, where do you raise the revenue to pay for aid? Where does
:23:32. > :23:38.it come from, is it taxpayers' money? Why is it the British
:23:38. > :23:41.taxpayers' responsibility, why is it not the tax-paying Indian
:23:41. > :23:45.industrialists responsibility. pay for the fighters? To pay for
:23:45. > :23:50.the aid? For their own development, why is it left with the British
:23:50. > :23:54.taxpayer? Why do you think? I don't think we should conflate trade with
:23:54. > :23:57.aid. Are you in favour of the aid? I am. We are a just, generous...
:23:57. > :24:02.Can you answer the question. We are a just, generous and fair society.
:24:02. > :24:05.I have been raised believing I am my brother's keeper. I won't walk
:24:05. > :24:09.on the other side. There are people in India who literally are having
:24:09. > :24:14.their lives saved because monies you will pay to help children live,
:24:14. > :24:18.whether it is vaccinations for TB, whether it's sanitation. Would more
:24:18. > :24:24.lives be saved if they didn't have the space programme? Of course it
:24:24. > :24:27.would be be better if the Indian Government was saving these lives.
:24:27. > :24:35.We as a rich country should save those lives and I am really proud
:24:35. > :24:39.of that, not embarrassed at all. APPLAUSE. More money was raised by
:24:39. > :24:45.cop cop -- kopblic re-- Comic Relief because we are a fantastic
:24:45. > :24:50.society. Be proud of that, rather than embarrassed. The man up there.
:24:50. > :24:57.Why shouldn't the Foreign Office know exactly what was required to
:24:57. > :25:00.get these planes contract with India? How do you mean? The Foreign
:25:00. > :25:03.Office's responsibility to find out... And failed to do the deal,
:25:04. > :25:09.you mean? They didn't get in contact with India well tphouf find
:25:09. > :25:13.out what the criteria was to get these planes and contracts. Well,
:25:13. > :25:17.firstly, the facts are that the French have not got the contract.
:25:17. > :25:21.The Indiaen have made said it's for the French to lose it. It's going
:25:21. > :25:24.to come this way? That is important. This is not yet a done deal. We
:25:24. > :25:30.have the chance to full out of the fire. Secondly, I don't agree with
:25:30. > :25:35.these guys about not having tied aid. So often you see around the
:25:35. > :25:39.world we, unlike any other developed country, we actually give
:25:39. > :25:43.money without any conditions at all and to certain places we fulfil
:25:43. > :25:48.that generous just society that we all believe in. So often we
:25:48. > :25:52.actually use - the money is used to go and build a piece of
:25:52. > :25:56.infrastructure where we create create jobs in Japan, America, and
:25:56. > :26:01.France and you have paid for it. All I would ask is a level playing
:26:01. > :26:04.field because the other countries don't play the same game and many
:26:04. > :26:08.of the other developed countries put money in and say we will we
:26:08. > :26:12.will build it for you but the wealth we create out of it will be
:26:12. > :26:15.for the taxpayers of our country. All I ask is politicians can sit
:26:15. > :26:19.here with your money and give it to a country that has a space
:26:19. > :26:23.programme and buy stuff and the rest, by the way, they paid Bernie
:26:23. > :26:28.Ecclestone for a Grand Prix, well, you paid Bernie Ecclestone in Delhi.
:26:28. > :26:32.At the end of the day at some point we need another sort of fairness,
:26:32. > :26:35.because we are under the cosh in this country. We have to keep
:26:36. > :26:40.helping the poor of the world, rightly, you are right, gentlemen,
:26:40. > :26:49.but we have to do it on the same terms as every other country. The
:26:49. > :26:54.problem is we don't do it. APPLAUSE there is a really big problem with
:26:54. > :26:57.that argument. It's right. development money doesn't go to big
:26:57. > :27:01.infrastructure projects. We are not in that business T T. It goes to
:27:01. > :27:05.tkofts. A few governments, but only... What do governments do with
:27:05. > :27:09.it? We don't just give them money and say do what you want. We give
:27:09. > :27:12.money, for instance, to their health department. They then don't
:27:12. > :27:16.have to give the noun health department and spend it on
:27:16. > :27:21.infrastructure projects. No, it's normally in a partnership to add to
:27:21. > :27:28.what they are doing and also to steer the way they do it a better
:27:28. > :27:32.way. Businesses in Britain pays tax, that tax goes to food in other
:27:32. > :27:35.countries -- their competitors to get work. These people are out of
:27:35. > :27:41.work. Where is the fairness in that?
:27:41. > :27:44.I was wondering all the money that's been sent abroad to
:27:44. > :27:51.undeveloped countries that need our help, what happens when we need
:27:51. > :27:59.help? Who around the world is going to help us? We spend about at the
:27:59. > :28:03.moment under �10 billion on aid, less. So... But you are closing
:28:03. > :28:06.libraries. Let's look at the Department for International
:28:06. > :28:10.Development. Would you spend money on disasters like like earthquakes
:28:10. > :28:15.and things like that. We have international obligations going to
:28:15. > :28:18.see Britain spending money to the - - to the World Bank and IMF and UN.
:28:18. > :28:22.You are going to see through the Foreign Office some programmes in
:28:22. > :28:24.countries because we are in those countries. Lo and behold you have a
:28:24. > :28:30.Department for International Development. At the end of the day
:28:30. > :28:34.we are arguing about whether it should be plus or minus, let's say,
:28:34. > :28:37.�2 billion. OK, it's a lot of money, but it's not going to solve every
:28:37. > :28:41.single problem in the UK from the police to the health service, to
:28:41. > :28:51.defence and everything else. What newspapers do is spend this about
:28:51. > :28:55.
:28:55. > :29:01.20 times over and it's dishonest. OK. Phil Redmond, please. Do you
:29:01. > :29:05.want me to be as brief as them! to. Just coming back to the
:29:05. > :29:08.question, the answer is I don't know. But I will take a guess and I
:29:08. > :29:11.think the guess is attached to changing the name of the project,
:29:11. > :29:13.it shouldn't be called overseas aid, it should be called overseas
:29:14. > :29:18.investment. If we decide that investment is in humanitarian aid
:29:18. > :29:21.that's one thing F we decide it's an investment to encourage buying
:29:21. > :29:26.fighters that's something else again. But the other thing we
:29:26. > :29:29.shouldn't forget is we do have a standing in the world and do have a
:29:29. > :29:33.social conscious about the world and have to trade back and forward
:29:33. > :29:37.and have to make these kind of gestures every now and then and
:29:37. > :29:41.coming from the people's Republic I have to remind you we do have a lot
:29:41. > :29:51.of Indian aid in Liverpool in a fine Jaguar factory that turns out
:29:51. > :29:52.
:29:52. > :29:56.the Range Rover. In which you may be running as
:29:56. > :30:01.Mayor of Liverpool, is that right? I don't know. People keep talking
:30:01. > :30:08.to me about that but would I get to come on here more often? Would that
:30:08. > :30:12.convince you to go? That's a reason for you not to go, Phil! Andrew
:30:12. > :30:16.Mitchell, the Secretary of State, says we are a development
:30:16. > :30:21.superpower. When you hear what Digby Jones says, do you think
:30:21. > :30:24.that's what it really means, that you should build things, use
:30:24. > :30:32.British engineers, British industry to provide what he says is the aid
:30:32. > :30:36.that you are sending, or is it a way of sending cash? As a
:30:36. > :30:42.developing superpower we should be bidding relationships with people,
:30:42. > :30:49.trying to understand different cultures and different ways of life.
:30:49. > :30:56.You said about concrete cash. sorry. We've had enough. The man in
:30:56. > :31:02.red there. I would like to answer the woman's point when she said,
:31:02. > :31:07.what will happen when we need help. Do you mean when we need help
:31:07. > :31:11.paying our Sky bill? People are dying on the streets over there.
:31:11. > :31:16.was talking about the people in England that are homeless and we
:31:17. > :31:21.are sending money abroad for people who are in the self same situation
:31:21. > :31:29.as what notice Britain. If you've got a Sky TV and you can't pay your
:31:29. > :31:33.bill, that's your bill. If I have a Sky bill I pay it. I don't ask for
:31:33. > :31:36.help when I pay your bills. Who are you thinking of when you say the
:31:36. > :31:42.money shouldn't go abroad? Every country has its own Government and
:31:42. > :31:47.its own people that are in charge of their own country. It always
:31:47. > :31:52.seems to be that our country is always there handing out millions
:31:52. > :31:59.of pounds and it is forgetting about our people, the school and
:31:59. > :32:04.health, hospitals. It does. When MRSA, how many children went to
:32:04. > :32:07.hospital and they came out with MRSA. Children were dying.
:32:07. > :32:12.Hospitals in England should be clean, not them going into
:32:12. > :32:19.hospitals and coming out with loads more diseases and imnesses. Thank
:32:19. > :32:24.you very much. I've spent the last 45- 50 years working on development
:32:24. > :32:31.aid all over the world for all organisations, including Defra, or
:32:31. > :32:37.DFID as it was. I see a lot of corruption. I see a lot of misuse
:32:37. > :32:41.of aid. I see aid given for buildings which fall down two years
:32:41. > :32:46.later because there is no contingency there to maintain them.
:32:46. > :32:52.I see lots of equipment being give within no spare parts and no local
:32:52. > :33:00.training for the people to maintain and use that equipment. And I see
:33:01. > :33:05.equipment worth $20,000 or $30,000 sitting there for want of a spare
:33:05. > :33:11.part worth about �5. Because there is no hard cash there to buy that
:33:11. > :33:15.spare part and they don't have the wherewithal to maintain it. Because
:33:15. > :33:20.that training is not given when we give the pieces of equipment. Would
:33:20. > :33:23.you please comment. What is your comment on that? You've heard the
:33:23. > :33:30.argument between ow aid should be given, whether it should be given
:33:30. > :33:34.at all, or in cash. If you give aid you must give them the wherewithal
:33:34. > :33:39.to maintain whatever you are giving them. You cannot just give cash
:33:39. > :33:45.away. I agree. You're right. APPLAUSE The man in the middle
:33:45. > :33:49.there. Perhaps the point is being missed. Especially when you compare
:33:49. > :33:53.Britain to India. They are two different countries. There's people
:33:53. > :33:58.starving here and there is colossal Government waste. The point was
:33:58. > :34:02.made there, what we need to do is stop the outdated system where we
:34:02. > :34:09.dole money out to Governments and you have to give people the means
:34:09. > :34:14.to take into it their own hands, people set up their own loans and
:34:14. > :34:18.businesses and not give it to Third World Governments to embezzle,
:34:18. > :34:21.which seems to be happening now. You have suched up in what you have
:34:21. > :34:25.just said exactly what we are trying to do. As I said earlier,
:34:25. > :34:29.the clue is on the tin. We don't call it overseas aid. We call it
:34:29. > :34:33.international development. The point is we don't just give a bung
:34:33. > :34:37.to corrupt Governments. We are strict on what happens. We will not
:34:37. > :34:40.give budget support to governments we don't trust. We will give it to
:34:40. > :34:44.programmes to lift people out of poverty. Explain to me how that
:34:44. > :34:49.squares with a country that can spend �10 billion on jet fighters
:34:49. > :34:55.from France, pay for a Grand Prix, have a space programme and more
:34:55. > :35:01.billionaires than us and you give them their money! APPLAUSE
:35:01. > :35:05.Because... Because I will say it one more time, they are more, there
:35:06. > :35:11.are more of the poorest people in three states of India than there
:35:11. > :35:14.are in sub-Saharan Africa. You can ignore them if you want. But France
:35:14. > :35:18.gives $18 million a year. Again you are linking it to contracts, which
:35:19. > :35:22.we don't do. We are in the business of trying to stop children dying
:35:22. > :35:25.and to try and make sure that a country can fend for itself in
:35:25. > :35:30.years to come. That's the development bit. We are not there
:35:30. > :35:36.to say, "We're Britain, here is the dosh, get on with it." That's not
:35:36. > :35:40.what we do. But India should be doing it. They are doing it but
:35:40. > :35:42.they cannot do absolutely everything. You can take away
:35:42. > :35:46.communication systems and infrastructure and say, "Only spend
:35:46. > :35:52.your money on the very poor" but that will retard the development.
:35:52. > :35:56.The woman on the third row. This point that Digby keeps raising that
:35:56. > :36:00.just because India has a space programme we shouldn't be giving
:36:00. > :36:06.them international aid is absurd. For every dollar America spent on
:36:06. > :36:10.their space programme they got 45 dollars back from diversified
:36:10. > :36:14.industries and tech knollies. We should be glad that India is
:36:14. > :36:18.investing in things for future. I fully support everything that Alan
:36:18. > :36:24.Duncan is saying here. Emma Boon, do you want to come back on that
:36:24. > :36:27.point? I think the issue here, and the gentleman at the back raised
:36:27. > :36:30.the point he worked in aid for a number of years. There are a lot of
:36:30. > :36:34.difficulties with the aid programmes that we are running
:36:34. > :36:38.abroad. Taxpayers want to see value for money. And taxpayers do not
:36:38. > :36:42.mind their money going to help the world's poorest where they are
:36:42. > :36:46.getting that value. I hope that if Alan Duncan says they are working
:36:46. > :36:50.towards getting better value out of that aid for taxpayers that that is
:36:50. > :36:56.what we are going to do. But I still believe that the right thing
:36:56. > :37:00.to do would be to freeze the aid budget at the moment. Everything we
:37:00. > :37:03.spend you can see on the website and scrutinise it, because all the
:37:03. > :37:11.information is there. The best argument to keep us doing what we
:37:11. > :37:16.should be doing is the transparency we've offered all along. Why are
:37:16. > :37:20.you so hostile to the TaxPayers' Alliance? Because they are rent a
:37:20. > :37:25.quote without getting their facts right. I don't think that's right.
:37:25. > :37:29.APPLAUSE Do you recognise this picture? I think if we are annoying
:37:29. > :37:39.people and Stadeing up for taxpayers' money we are probably
:37:39. > :37:45.doing something right. APPLAUSE A question from Gareth Thomas please,
:37:45. > :37:48.Dr Gareth Thomas. The Health Service Journal, the nursing times
:37:48. > :37:52.and British Medical Journal have said carrying on with the changes
:37:52. > :37:57.to the NHS would create an "unholy mess". Should the coalition
:37:57. > :38:02.continue with these plans. There seems to be a united front from the
:38:02. > :38:08.three journals, should the plans be reconsidered? Digby Jones. When the
:38:08. > :38:13.country is in such a mess and the nation said come together
:38:13. > :38:18.politically, some parties, and sort it out and take some incredibly
:38:18. > :38:22.hard and tough decisions, and accept the unpopularity that comes
:38:22. > :38:26.with firm government at times, when all the political energy and talent
:38:26. > :38:31.that we've got on that basis, and I would hope from a responsible
:38:31. > :38:37.opposition is to try and get us to trade our way out of this mess and
:38:37. > :38:44.manage this. For the life of me I cannot understand why the
:38:44. > :38:50.Government then actually chose to open up a new fight? The NHS
:38:50. > :38:57.obviously needs to change. It needs to reform. Everything, nothing is
:38:57. > :39:01.stasis in a dynamic society. It has to change to fit a getting-older
:39:01. > :39:04.population, to fit medical improvements, to fit a moving of
:39:04. > :39:08.the population. All of that. Of course it does. I reckon a lot of
:39:08. > :39:12.the stuff in all of this is quite good stuff. But to rush it through
:39:12. > :39:18.in your first term of Government when all your energy and esmeegs be
:39:18. > :39:23.going into sorting out the unholy mess we've got in this country. And
:39:23. > :39:27.why don't we create the business and jobs to create the tax and do
:39:27. > :39:32.this stuff, why are we spending all this political energy on something
:39:32. > :39:35.that is unnecessary now? I reckon the quicker they shelve it - notice
:39:35. > :39:41.I didn't say abolish it, because there'll be some good stuff in
:39:41. > :39:51.there. But shelve it and get back to sorting out the mess, the better
:39:51. > :39:57.
:39:57. > :40:04.it will be. APPLAUSE Sadiq Khan. Alan Milburn, the former Labour
:40:04. > :40:08.Health Secretary said it is a strategic lack of judgment. Do you
:40:08. > :40:13.think maybe he has right on his side or do you agree with Digby
:40:14. > :40:18.Jones? I agree with a lot of what Digby said about the NHS. You don't
:40:18. > :40:22.want reform? We do want reform. It is really important that the NHS
:40:22. > :40:26.reforms. We've got an ageing population. Social care is
:40:26. > :40:30.important. But you have an NHS which has to make a huge amount of
:40:30. > :40:34.savings over the next few years. Inflation in if NHS is high. More
:40:34. > :40:38.so than in other areas of Government spending. The Government
:40:38. > :40:44.is embarking on the biggest reorganisation of the NHS since she
:40:44. > :40:49.was founded in 1945. It will cost �3 billion to reorganise the NHS
:40:49. > :40:55.plus all the money required to make the savings. When the Royal College
:40:55. > :40:57.of GPs, the Royal College of nurses, and the Royal College of Midwives
:40:57. > :40:59.and the Royal College of Psychiatrists all come together and
:41:00. > :41:03.say this is too much at this difficult time, the it is important
:41:03. > :41:09.that we pause and listen. This Bill is twice as long as the Bill that
:41:09. > :41:14.set up the NHS. 1,000 amendments were put down in the House of
:41:14. > :41:18.Commons two months ago. Another 150 plus were put down yesterday in the
:41:18. > :41:22.House of Lords. Digby is right. The Government should pause, but more
:41:22. > :41:26.than that they should drop the Bill and for goodness sake let GPs
:41:26. > :41:35.commission as they want to do rather than trying to privatise our
:41:35. > :41:38.NHS. APPLAUSE With so many questions from professionals,
:41:38. > :41:42.healthcare professionals and politicians themselves, and so many
:41:42. > :41:44.changes have been made moving towards this Bill y have these
:41:44. > :41:49.changes been allowed to happen? People have lost their jobs, people
:41:49. > :41:53.are moving on, the unrest and the uncertainty within the NHS and
:41:53. > :41:57.wider local authorities and so on, it is so immense at the moment with
:41:57. > :42:02.this changing culture. The idea that such a massive change to the
:42:02. > :42:05.NHS coming at the same time as massive, massive cost savings is an
:42:05. > :42:10.incredible thing to all come at once and to be rushed through. The
:42:10. > :42:16.panel's view would be welcome on that. Emma Boon, what is your view
:42:16. > :42:19.from the taxpayers' point of view? The NHS is one of the biggest areas
:42:19. > :42:23.of spending. Of course we want good value for money from healthcare. We
:42:23. > :42:26.could look to some of our partners in Europe and look at how they are
:42:26. > :42:33.getting value out of their healthcare systems and look at how
:42:33. > :42:37.treatments work over there. We need something that is less centralise
:42:37. > :42:41.ed. Not managed by politicians. My concern is these reforms are not
:42:41. > :42:46.necessarily targeted towards saving money. As Sadiq Khan pointed out,
:42:46. > :42:49.some of these reforms are going to be expensive to put in place.
:42:49. > :42:52.Taxpayers don't understand what the reforms are going to mean for them,
:42:52. > :42:56.how their local services are going to change. I would like to see
:42:56. > :43:06.politicians from all parties working together on NHS reform. I
:43:06. > :43:10.
:43:10. > :43:20.think it is too important to become a political football. APPLAUSE OK.
:43:20. > :43:21.
:43:21. > :43:27.As a value-added taxpayer, can I remind Emma Boon we all pay tax, I
:43:27. > :43:32.don't pay income tax, my income is too low. In the last six months I
:43:32. > :43:35.have had many appointments cancelled because of staff
:43:36. > :43:40.shortages. They are starting at the bottom with the nurse and
:43:40. > :43:44.physiotherapists and doctors. They are having to pay daily car parking
:43:44. > :43:50.charges while the top level management in their BMWs are
:43:50. > :43:57.parking for free. APPLAUSE How is that equality? Alan Duncan. Well,
:43:57. > :44:03.perhaps I can extend an olive branch and say I largely agreed
:44:03. > :44:08.with what Emma said. I do not agree with what Digby said is. His logic
:44:08. > :44:15.if I understood it is there's a lot of good stuff in that Bill, so we
:44:15. > :44:18.had better delay. You are saying there's a lot of good stuff there
:44:18. > :44:22.but you don't want it to happen now. The thing about the political cycle
:44:22. > :44:26.is it is important when you've got a new Government to get done the
:44:26. > :44:32.things you think must get done. It is a very important piece of
:44:32. > :44:37.legislation. It doesn't stop us doing things on the economy which
:44:37. > :44:40.is self-evident. What the lady said is important. If there are BMWs for
:44:40. > :44:44.managers, that's the layer we are trying to strip out. We are trying
:44:44. > :44:50.to say this to doctors, the people who really have the relationship
:44:50. > :45:00.directly with you as a patient. Can have far more flexibility to adapt
:45:00. > :45:01.
:45:01. > :45:11.their practices to the need of a You are making people people
:45:11. > :45:16.redundant and reemploying them. Well, at the top they're going.
:45:16. > :45:20.It's my doctors and in my constituency as new organisations
:45:20. > :45:24.who are going to be able to go to the likes of you with far more
:45:24. > :45:27.flexible and personally directed patient care F I were you I would
:45:28. > :45:32.think about that and say actually that's what Wye like to see the NHS
:45:32. > :45:37.do and I am glad this Bill is going through. Sadiq Khan says there are
:45:37. > :45:40.thousands of amendments which shows it's a bad bill, do you want to
:45:40. > :45:43.comment on that. Some of them will be spoiling, sometimes if you are
:45:43. > :45:48.one amendment there are about 200 others because it's the same kpha
:45:48. > :45:52.all the way through the Bill, the numbers don't mean... Go way, speak
:45:52. > :45:56.to us, we will work together and come up with a proper Bill. I am
:45:56. > :46:00.always happy to work with you. woman Thrupp on the right. --
:46:00. > :46:03.Thrupp on the right. Having worked in the NHS for 43 years and now
:46:03. > :46:09.retired, the main people that waste the money within the NHS are
:46:09. > :46:14.politicians. The policies change too frequently. For instance, they
:46:14. > :46:18.just set up the last few years the PCTs and now you are saying that
:46:18. > :46:21.cost billions of pounds, you are now going to change that and go
:46:21. > :46:26.back to what we had before, strategic health authorities.
:46:26. > :46:29.Redmond, what is your take on the NHS change? I think that any of us
:46:30. > :46:34.who have had to be in a hospital over the last few years will know
:46:34. > :46:36.as soon as you walk in a door that things need to be fixed somewhere.
:46:36. > :46:40.At the same time, you know that there's a tremendous amount of
:46:40. > :46:45.really good people working really hard trying to actually fulfil the
:46:45. > :46:48.service. I think at some stage we are going to have to grasp hold of
:46:48. > :46:53.the National Health Service and sort it out really. But I actually
:46:54. > :46:58.do take the point, I think right now is probably the wrong time to
:46:58. > :47:02.do it. Since about 2008 I think the general public more than the
:47:02. > :47:06.politicians have known that we were heading for this terrible austerity.
:47:06. > :47:10.We knew straightaway what was going to happen. People have sort of
:47:10. > :47:13.getting that now and people are prepared to dig in and they're
:47:13. > :47:18.prepared to work and actually sort it out. I just think taking on such
:47:18. > :47:23.a fundamental change to something which is so emotionally embedded
:47:23. > :47:27.within all of us, that is our National Health Service, at this
:47:27. > :47:32.particular time I think is a wrong political move and I finally say on
:47:32. > :47:35.that, I think I am right actually in saying that when the coalition
:47:35. > :47:38.were campaigning and when they came into Government one of the big
:47:38. > :47:42.things was that the National Health Service was ringfenced. And it was
:47:42. > :47:45.going to be protected and I think that's exactly what you should do,
:47:45. > :47:49.leave it in the ringfence and then talk to the local people. You
:47:49. > :47:52.should not be trying to steamroll a national policy through but talk to
:47:52. > :47:56.people about their local hospital, what they want to be changed, how
:47:56. > :47:59.they can see the change and talk to people here who work within the
:47:59. > :48:09.system. They'll know more than anybody else exactly what needs to
:48:09. > :48:10.
:48:10. > :48:16.be changed. APPLAUSE. I want to fit in a couple more
:48:16. > :48:18.questions. This someone from Larissa McCurry, please. Does the
:48:18. > :48:21.fall in university applications this year suggest that the
:48:21. > :48:27.Government were wrong to raise tuition fees? We just heard the
:48:27. > :48:32.news that applications were down according to the figures by 8.7%
:48:32. > :48:36.for universities, does this suggest that the fee structure was wrong?
:48:37. > :48:41.Digby Jones. I think one of the most encouraging statistics is that
:48:42. > :48:46.for the first year since university education in this country was
:48:46. > :48:49.really opened up in the 60s, there will be more starts of
:48:49. > :48:53.apprenticeships in Britain than there will people enrolling at
:48:53. > :48:57.university. I think if we really do want to make this a skills-based
:48:58. > :49:01.economy you have got to get 16, 17, 18-year-olds in some sort of
:49:01. > :49:06.training that doesn't necessarily mean you go off and get a degree.
:49:06. > :49:11.If out of this we stop looking at it as coming down of university
:49:11. > :49:15.applications, but look at it as in the whole, we are getting better
:49:15. > :49:19.training and education in to people coming out of full-time education
:49:19. > :49:25.at school, then I see this as a positive. The other positive is
:49:25. > :49:28.that I would rather, especially in times of hardship, Wye rather see
:49:28. > :49:32.undergraduates enrolling on courses which are going to be of course to
:49:32. > :49:35.us all in generating wealth to pay tax and create jobs and if some of
:49:35. > :49:39.the courses that are no longer available, which is responsible for
:49:39. > :49:44.that, happened to be the courses if I may say are perhaps not the ones
:49:44. > :49:50.that are as relevant, then I am actually not alarmed by it and the
:49:50. > :49:52.one thing I would just say to the lady who saw the BMW in the
:49:52. > :49:55.administrator's car park in Liverpool, why wasn't he driving
:49:55. > :50:01.because he was being paid by the taxpayer a car made in Liverpool
:50:01. > :50:06.and not in Munich? APPLAUSE.
:50:06. > :50:10.Sadiq Khan, university applications. The figures are curious, they
:50:10. > :50:15.suggest 8.7% overall but the number of 18 18-year-olds has dropped and
:50:15. > :50:19.we are told in the poorest students the numbers applying for university
:50:19. > :50:25.hasn't dropped. They're a mixture. The figures show is in England
:50:25. > :50:35.where this year �9,000 a year tuition fees, they've gone down by
:50:35. > :50:36.
:50:36. > :50:40.10%. In Scotland by one 1%. In Wales by about 1.5. Clearly having
:50:40. > :50:42.a tuition fees of �9,000 has an impact on people applying to
:50:42. > :50:47.universities in England. There is a variety of reasons. Many people
:50:47. > :50:54.from various backgrounds are risk averse, but the trug thing --
:50:54. > :50:58.interesting thing is even though they don't get bursaries. And it's
:50:58. > :51:02.law, science, engineering, medicine all these degree applications down.
:51:02. > :51:05.I say this, I agree vocational courses are important but I bet
:51:05. > :51:10.everyone of us, university was the ladder that helped us become mobile
:51:10. > :51:15.and get jobs we have today. Let's not diminish the chances of others
:51:15. > :51:18.to climb up the ladder. Isn't it true there was a bulge last year in
:51:18. > :51:21.people applying to get in before these increases came so there would
:51:21. > :51:25.be inevitably a statistical drop? Some people didn't take a gap year
:51:25. > :51:30.out, but what's worrying about these figures, mature students,
:51:30. > :51:34.there's been a massive drop and the mature students are those who have
:51:34. > :51:37.done vocational work, want to go to university to improve job prospects
:51:37. > :51:43.and quality of life they lead and their family who won't be able to
:51:43. > :51:47.do so because of tuition fees being too high. Phil Redmond. Statistics
:51:47. > :51:51.are always statistics, aren't they, you can knock them around. The
:51:51. > :51:54.encouraging thing about this is it is people from low, disadvantaged
:51:54. > :51:58.communities. The figures have stayed quite steady and I think
:51:58. > :52:02.that really is what the second - higher education should be about.
:52:02. > :52:06.The thing about mature students is we got to be careful, that's mature
:52:06. > :52:10.students doing a second degree. It's not a mature student who wants
:52:10. > :52:14.to do a first degree. The third point is we really have to get a
:52:14. > :52:17.hold of the notion is that we never had a free education system. When I
:52:17. > :52:21.went through university I went through as a so-called mature
:52:21. > :52:24.student, I don't think I am mature yet, but the point is that I
:52:24. > :52:28.received a grant to go and do it but then I looked back recently
:52:28. > :52:33.because of this debate at the rate of tax that I was actually paying
:52:33. > :52:36.when I went in when I was in the construction industry and when I
:52:36. > :52:40.came out and I have to say to you now I would rather now take out a
:52:40. > :52:44.student loan and pay the percentage back that way than have the tax
:52:44. > :52:49.rates we had in the 70s. We have got to be careful about this, about
:52:49. > :52:53.education is free, you either pay for it one way or pay for it
:52:53. > :52:57.another. The woman on the left there. Two members of the panel
:52:57. > :53:03.have discussed vocational training and how important it is and this
:53:03. > :53:06.week what have we had happen? Over 3,000 vocational courses devalued.
:53:06. > :53:09.Are we interested in this country in youth unemployment or interested
:53:09. > :53:19.in league tables? We need to get that clear.
:53:19. > :53:22.APPLAUSE. Alan Duncan. I won't dwell on the
:53:22. > :53:26.tuition feess because you largely answered the question about the
:53:26. > :53:31.number of people applying and everything else. Let me go straight
:53:31. > :53:38.to that comment. We are not devaluing vocational qualifications.
:53:38. > :53:43.What's happened at the moment is that in school league tables
:53:43. > :53:48.vocational qualifications have often been expressed as if they
:53:48. > :53:54.were GCS hes, -- GCSEs, which they're not. They can take a
:53:54. > :53:59.qualification and say that school has had four GCSEs above grade C,
:53:59. > :54:05.but they haven't. They are taken as equivalent when they bear no
:54:05. > :54:11.relation whatsoever to the... Wait a minute. You are taking us down a
:54:11. > :54:15.blind alley again. The issue the lady is raising about what is
:54:15. > :54:19.vocational is. You have already made a judgment, because it's not a
:54:19. > :54:27.GCSE. It can't count in league table. That's the value you are
:54:27. > :54:30.judging. APPLAUSE. You can't do it because the league tables seem to
:54:30. > :54:33.play into a national curriculum which is set into national targets
:54:33. > :54:39.and that's not the way it should be. We should be looking for education
:54:39. > :54:43.to get the best opportunities to people. All we are saying is there
:54:43. > :54:45.should be... The titles are wrong. You can't say vocation and academic,
:54:45. > :54:50.you should be talking about a qualification that gives people the
:54:50. > :54:54.best opportunity. I believe very strongly, as do you too, in the
:54:54. > :54:57.value of vocational qualifications. But if someone is going to be
:54:57. > :55:01.fantastically employable they also need some of the basic foundation
:55:01. > :55:06.blocks of learning to read, write, count and... You get those before
:55:06. > :55:11.you reach GCSE level or you should do. Why have we still got a very
:55:11. > :55:21.high adult illliteracy rate which is no different than when I started
:55:21. > :55:22.
:55:22. > :55:25.to talk about it in 1978? APPLAUSE. Because if you don't concentrate on
:55:25. > :55:30.those essential building blocks of learning, reading writing, counting,
:55:30. > :55:33.then you could have a vocational qualification of value but it will
:55:33. > :55:39.be undermined... Before you get to this point of the school having to
:55:39. > :55:45.fill in league tables in case it actually needs qualify for Europe.
:55:45. > :55:50.Emma Boon. I have to agree with one of the points Phil made, that we
:55:50. > :55:55.haven't damaged the sort of widening of access to university
:55:55. > :55:59.education. We can see from the figures that actual lay lot of
:55:59. > :56:03.people whoen bursaries, the number of those hasn't dropped. There was
:56:03. > :56:06.a lot of scaremongering about fees when they went up. It's right
:56:06. > :56:10.students pay more towards the cost of their education because they are
:56:10. > :56:13.the one that is will benefit from it the most. In fact, students
:56:13. > :56:18.don't pay fees, it's once you graduated then you pay that loan
:56:18. > :56:23.back and as you said, you felt you had a better deal out of that.
:56:23. > :56:28.man there in the pink shirt. Jumping back to Alan's point. At
:56:28. > :56:33.the moment currently what would happen to a school that has
:56:33. > :56:38.resisted going down the vocational route in terms of their position in
:56:38. > :56:43.the league tables? Would they be at a disadvantage to schools which
:56:43. > :56:47.have gone down massively down the vocational? In the East Midlands
:56:47. > :56:53.you have fabulous exporting manufacturers, JCB, Rolls Royce,
:56:53. > :56:58.Toyota, Bombardier, quality people and they came together and created
:56:58. > :57:02.this academy which had engineering at its core and they do a
:57:02. > :57:06.vocational course which counts towards a GCSE. And this Government,
:57:06. > :57:09.by the way, the last Government after 11 years of full-time free
:57:09. > :57:13.and compulsory education ended up with half the kids not being able
:57:13. > :57:15.to get a GCSE in English and maths, so, they're all to blame, but this
:57:15. > :57:18.Government have now said to these people in the East Midlands we are
:57:18. > :57:22.not going to call that a GCSE any more, so you will get lots of
:57:22. > :57:25.people who say well I understand the currency of a GCSE, I
:57:25. > :57:29.understand what it is and I see it as a standard with a quality
:57:29. > :57:33.attached to it. Over here you are teaching them something, what does
:57:33. > :57:36.it mean? If you can actually link it to something that Britain
:57:36. > :57:41.understands, you will get more young people going in to proper
:57:41. > :57:44.work which will general rate wealth, which -- generate wealth. To have
:57:44. > :57:48.done what they've done to future engineers in this country because
:57:48. > :57:53.of what they did last week is a real shame. Time is up, thank you
:57:53. > :57:57.very much. APPLAUSE.
:57:57. > :58:03.As ever, in the middle of a good argument we have to stop because we
:58:03. > :58:08.are only allowed an hour and there is a programme after us that will
:58:08. > :58:13.be fretting if we don't stop now. We better. Andrew Neil, my good
:58:13. > :58:17.friend s waiting. Next week we are in central London. Our panel is
:58:17. > :58:21.going to include the Defence Secretary, Philip Hammond, Alastair
:58:21. > :58:28.Campbell, head of communications for Tony Blair,
:58:28. > :58:35.the Liberal Democrat peer Shirley Williams and the presenter Kirsty
:58:35. > :58:42.Allsop and one other as unknown. The week after is in Nottingham: If
:58:42. > :58:46.you would like to come you can ring Or visit our website and apply