0:00:00 > 0:00:05Tonight we are in Nottingham and welcome to Question Time.
0:00:05 > 0:00:09On the panel with me here the Justice Secretary, Ken Clarke, the
0:00:09 > 0:00:19former Deputy Prime Minister, John Prescott, Liberal Democrat peer
0:00:19 > 0:00:29Susan Kramer, the businesswoman and financier Julie Meyer and Owen
0:00:29 > 0:00:33
0:00:33 > 0:00:42Jones, author. APPLAUSE.
0:00:42 > 0:00:46So our first question, Andrea Ben - - Bennington, please. How would you
0:00:46 > 0:00:50solve the unemployment crisis? have had figures today of the
0:00:50 > 0:00:53highest for many years, well, Julie Meyer, you are new to the panel,
0:00:53 > 0:00:58but you are a dab hand at the economy. What do you think? Well, I
0:00:58 > 0:01:01think a lot of the people - it depends on where they are in their
0:01:01 > 0:01:06skills set. Later in life they might have skills and have always
0:01:06 > 0:01:10wanted to set up a micro business, there's a lot of people who have
0:01:10 > 0:01:15got laid off that tell me it's the most thing that ever happened, I
0:01:15 > 0:01:20don't mean that disrespectful. If it's kids coming out of school and
0:01:20 > 0:01:23trying to get up on the ladder and so forth, we have taken on about
0:01:23 > 0:01:27four interns and we would probably take on more if we could if there
0:01:27 > 0:01:30was a way we could do that even more, to give them something to get
0:01:30 > 0:01:34them going. We need to get the word out that it's everybody's
0:01:34 > 0:01:38responsibility, frankly, to bring in interns and spend sometime with
0:01:38 > 0:01:41them and connect them in and get them job experience. You are saying
0:01:42 > 0:01:44employers aren't taking on people where they should be, why not?
0:01:44 > 0:01:48First of all, I think just connecting. We are connected to
0:01:48 > 0:01:53some great institutions like a student leadership organisation, it
0:01:53 > 0:01:56has all the enterprise societies in the UK so we can find interns
0:01:56 > 0:02:00easily. I am not sure that every business can do that. But I really
0:02:00 > 0:02:03think that it's going to be in five years we are not going to be
0:02:03 > 0:02:06talking about unemployment so much, it's going to be unemployment and
0:02:06 > 0:02:12self-employed and that's the line between that's going to be much
0:02:12 > 0:02:18more merged. The figures show 2.6 million, just over, unemployed. Ken
0:02:18 > 0:02:22Clarke, how would you solve this crisis? I have to make a passing
0:02:22 > 0:02:26reference to the deficit which burdens us and that has to carry on,
0:02:26 > 0:02:32we have to keep German-type interest rates despite the fact we
0:02:32 > 0:02:35have a Greek-type deficit. Everything would go wrong if we
0:02:35 > 0:02:39lose confidence and interest rates start going up. Alongside that we
0:02:39 > 0:02:43have to be business friendly, growth-led and we have to lower
0:02:43 > 0:02:49taxation, as we have corporation tax, lower taxation for the lowest
0:02:49 > 0:02:52possible level of taxpayers, we have got to boost enterprise zones
0:02:52 > 0:02:57we have started. We have to help small businesses raise money. A
0:02:57 > 0:03:01whole lot of things you will find in the financial financial pages
0:03:01 > 0:03:04about enterprise loan schemes and so on. Doesn't seem to be working
0:03:04 > 0:03:09so far. We are going to be four, five years perhaps, certainly three
0:03:09 > 0:03:13before we are back to normality and you know, it's not very newsworthy
0:03:13 > 0:03:16stuff but to businessmen it matters a lot and in the longer-term we
0:03:16 > 0:03:20have to rebalance our economy, we have to have the better educated
0:03:20 > 0:03:24workforce, the right kind of workforce, that's why we have got
0:03:24 > 0:03:28these technology colleges opening, university... All right, so five
0:03:28 > 0:03:32years. All these apprenticeships. Off list of things you have done,
0:03:32 > 0:03:38but you are saying five years before the figures fall. We are in
0:03:38 > 0:03:41the worst financial crisis anybody now living has seen. And most
0:03:41 > 0:03:46western democracies are struggling. We I think are seen by the outside
0:03:46 > 0:03:51world as coping better than most. Alongside tackling the immediate
0:03:51 > 0:03:55crisis, we have got to proceed in way that is help modern hi-tech
0:03:55 > 0:03:58companies start up, getting the workforce they want, give people
0:03:58 > 0:04:02apprenticeships, it's going to be a long haul. We have to create the
0:04:02 > 0:04:07conditions for a real economy and to get back to growth. The woman in
0:04:07 > 0:04:15the fourth row. With the retirement age keeping going up how are there
0:04:15 > 0:04:18going to be openings for young people coming through? APPLAUSE.
0:04:18 > 0:04:21Owen Jones? I don't think it's either or in that sense. I don't
0:04:21 > 0:04:26think we should be in the business of putting older workers against
0:04:26 > 0:04:29younger workers. The reality is this Government promised us a
0:04:29 > 0:04:34private sector-led recovery, that's not happened and the fact the last
0:04:34 > 0:04:38quarter last year, whilst 74,000 public sector jobs were lost over
0:04:38 > 0:04:435,000 private sector jobs were created and every single measure
0:04:43 > 0:04:49jobs, growth, borrowing figures, this this Government's austerity
0:04:49 > 0:04:53agenda has absolutely disastrously failed. APPLAUSE. If we look
0:04:53 > 0:04:57elsewhere, for example, funnily enough in the United States, the
0:04:57 > 0:05:00heartland of free market economics, rather than focusing on the massive
0:05:00 > 0:05:03austerity we have seen here and abroad the public stimulus, which
0:05:03 > 0:05:08has meant that unemployment in the United States is now falling, it's
0:05:08 > 0:05:15lower than it is here. Sorry, but that's wrong. We are not in the
0:05:15 > 0:05:211980s. The big, big, big thing has happening is entrepreneurship in
0:05:21 > 0:05:25the young. You have kids in their 20s on - set up jobs, when they
0:05:25 > 0:05:28should. You are talking about the States? No, here. It's not
0:05:28 > 0:05:32happening here. I don't know anyone under 30 who thinks they work for
0:05:32 > 0:05:37anyone any more. Even the four people under 30 who do for me, they
0:05:37 > 0:05:41have a completely different view of employment and setting up their own
0:05:41 > 0:05:50businesses. Julie f you don't have demand in the economy it doesn't
0:05:50 > 0:05:53matter how entrepreneurial people are, jobs are not created. APPLAUSE.
0:05:53 > 0:05:56Susan Kramer, your party's part of the coalition, I don't know how
0:05:56 > 0:06:01much you support the coalition, are you 100% behind the coalition?
0:06:01 > 0:06:05much a supporter, if we don't have the deficit reduction austerity
0:06:05 > 0:06:10measures we would be in dire straits. And it's provided the
0:06:10 > 0:06:14framework which gives us the potential to regrow our economy.
0:06:14 > 0:06:18you think five years in the way that Ken Clarke was saying? I think
0:06:18 > 0:06:22Ken is overly pessimistic, and I will tell you for a couple of
0:06:22 > 0:06:25reasons. One is, can I pick up Owen's point when he said in the
0:06:25 > 0:06:30United States they haven't had austerity. That's a misreading of
0:06:30 > 0:06:33the US figures. I have spent a lot of time there. In the local at the
0:06:33 > 0:06:37state level and I look and see what's happening with my
0:06:38 > 0:06:42grandchildren, teachers cut in the school, social workers removed,
0:06:42 > 0:06:46people receiving no benefit whatsoever. That's at the austerity
0:06:46 > 0:06:51within the state level which is where all the services are provided
0:06:51 > 0:06:54in the United States, has been absolutely... What are you saying
0:06:54 > 0:06:57nothing to be learned from the United States experience?
0:06:57 > 0:07:01always learn from people. What is happening here and crucially
0:07:01 > 0:07:06important now, we are seeing the beginning signs, it's slow, it's
0:07:06 > 0:07:10choppy, but more jobs were created in the private sector in the last
0:07:10 > 0:07:13quarter, so we are getting some growth. We know there's a pick-up
0:07:13 > 0:07:19in manufacturing, a pick-up in exports. We are getting the
0:07:19 > 0:07:24beginning of that rebalancing that we all think is important. It's
0:07:24 > 0:07:27choppy waters. We are on course to three million unemployed in this
0:07:27 > 0:07:35country. That's employment is always the last thing that recovers.
0:07:35 > 0:07:39If you are unemployed and you don't have a job, it is hugely painful.
0:07:39 > 0:07:44Is there anything you would like to see done? The questions with how
0:07:44 > 0:07:47would you solve the crisis? We are still not getting the funding to
0:07:47 > 0:07:54small businesses. Many of which work in a micro climate, could hire
0:07:54 > 0:07:58one or two ace digsle -- additional people. How would you achieve that,
0:07:58 > 0:08:02get the noun small businesses? think let's take down the barriers
0:08:02 > 0:08:10and get a raft of new small banks such as you see in places like
0:08:10 > 0:08:13Germany. Hold on. All right, John Prescott. I have to say since we
0:08:13 > 0:08:16have given billions to the banks and they've failed to give the
0:08:16 > 0:08:22money they promised to small businesses, that seems a
0:08:22 > 0:08:26responsibility of Government to act. APPLAUSE.
0:08:27 > 0:08:33Let me give another point, before I came here Ken, I have your speech,
0:08:33 > 0:08:38you were the Chancellor and it was in 1993. I hope you keep them and
0:08:38 > 0:08:42study them carefully, John. bedside reading reading! One good
0:08:42 > 0:08:46reason, when was the last time we had three million unemployed? After
0:08:46 > 0:08:5015 years of a Tory Government, you were brought in, Ken, as you say in
0:08:50 > 0:08:56your speech, to get people back to work, to get stability in the
0:08:56 > 0:09:00economy right, to reduce - and get growth. How do do you it, you cut
0:09:00 > 0:09:02benefits of people, put the real real poverty, create more
0:09:02 > 0:09:05unemployment because that's exactly what this Government is doing, but
0:09:05 > 0:09:10what you do, you pay more because you don't get the growth in the
0:09:10 > 0:09:17economy. Are you saying that's what he did in 93? Absolutely, that's
0:09:17 > 0:09:22Ken's speech. Wait a minute, Ken. Let him speak and I will give you a
0:09:22 > 0:09:27chance. Don't be hassling me! LAUGHTER. Would I ever! If it's
0:09:27 > 0:09:30about the level of affected demand. Julie, all these things on the side
0:09:30 > 0:09:35maybe useful but you have got to have a real effective demand in the
0:09:35 > 0:09:39economy. Three million unemployed won't be solved by that way, one
0:09:39 > 0:09:42thing you could do which the Tories have stopped, they called all those
0:09:43 > 0:09:47jobs state jobs in the north-east, so the north that had a million of
0:09:47 > 0:09:50the jobs of the two million jobs we created. They create three million
0:09:50 > 0:09:55unemployment. Do you remember that, Labour's not working, one million.
0:09:55 > 0:10:02Each time they're in on the policies they have, have you mass
0:10:02 > 0:10:06unemployment. APPLAUSE. All right. What would do you to solve the
0:10:06 > 0:10:11problem? On growth you have to live the effective demand and if you
0:10:11 > 0:10:19tell me... How would do you that? Put more money into the economy. By
0:10:19 > 0:10:25the way if you think they don't do that, borrowing has gone up 150
0:10:25 > 0:10:30million since they got on the job. Patience, panel. I will come back
0:10:30 > 0:10:36to you. I will pass you the speech, you can study it while we...
0:10:36 > 0:10:41APPLAUSE. See what it was you said. The man in the third row. He did
0:10:41 > 0:10:44improve it. Absolutely, I am trying to find it. It was the rest that
0:10:44 > 0:10:48took over. Hang on. The most alarming thing that I think about
0:10:48 > 0:10:55this issue is youth unemployment which is almost doubled in a year.
0:10:55 > 0:10:58I work in a school in Nottingham and there's over a million 16-24-
0:10:59 > 0:11:03year-olds unemployed and the Government's cutting the
0:11:03 > 0:11:10connections programme, it's cutting the EMA, it's putting up tuition
0:11:10 > 0:11:16fees for students. What actually is this Government doing? Hold the
0:11:16 > 0:11:21question there. The woman in the second row. Speaking as someone
0:11:22 > 0:11:27under 30, looking for a job after university, Wye like to ask Miss
0:11:27 > 0:11:34Meyer how she thinks people in my position can afford to do unpaid
0:11:34 > 0:11:37internships? We paid our interns. What do people in their 20s, they
0:11:37 > 0:11:41know a lot about the new digital world and we encourage corporates
0:11:41 > 0:11:45everywhere we go who are desperate to try to understand how digital
0:11:45 > 0:11:48business models are going to affect industries, right, that's where we
0:11:48 > 0:11:52have to encourage. It's not about what the Government does. It's
0:11:52 > 0:11:58about getting corporates what have not crossed to this digital to
0:11:58 > 0:12:04entkpaeupblg with 20 -- engage with 20-year-olds, get these guys in as
0:12:04 > 0:12:07focus groups to tell Tesco, Virgin, that's where the corporate should
0:12:07 > 0:12:13be engaging, that's their responsibility as citizens. It's
0:12:13 > 0:12:17not about being unpaid interns. We have four, we would take on more if
0:12:17 > 0:12:21we could afford it. There are 1.1 million unemployed women in this
0:12:21 > 0:12:24country. David Cameron says he wants to see more women in the
0:12:24 > 0:12:31boardroom shouldn't he be doing more to help them keep their jobs
0:12:31 > 0:12:35first? Ken Clarke, you have had a chance to study it,... John
0:12:35 > 0:12:41Prescott said you delivered it in 93 you did the right thing, that's
0:12:41 > 0:12:45what you said. No, no it wasn't's Labour's policy now. Hang on, don't
0:12:45 > 0:12:50go on too long. I haven't said anything at all so far! I won't
0:12:50 > 0:12:54tell you the time, but you have said enough. What was it you did
0:12:54 > 0:12:58then that you can't do now, that's a simple question? We took over a
0:12:58 > 0:13:00problem again of debt and deficit, I had to cut a lot of public
0:13:00 > 0:13:04spending and create kbs -- conditions to get growth.
0:13:04 > 0:13:08Unemployment rose for a bit. It peaked about 95. Thereafter it fell.
0:13:08 > 0:13:13I handed over to my successors, falling unemployment, falling level
0:13:13 > 0:13:18of debt. We soon went into surplus. Growth with low inflation by having
0:13:18 > 0:13:22sensible economic economic policies. I despair listening to the - I
0:13:22 > 0:13:26realise it's serious crisis, youth unemployment is particularly bad
0:13:26 > 0:13:29because it's the young who are hurt worst when it's their school
0:13:29 > 0:13:33leaving year comes in the middle of the deepest recession we have had
0:13:33 > 0:13:37and longest recession for a long time but you do not get out of it
0:13:37 > 0:13:41by saying let's spend a lot of money, let's borrow it from
0:13:41 > 0:13:47somebody, and find ways of putting money in the economy. We have been
0:13:47 > 0:13:51putting money in the economy to excess for the last 15 years and I
0:13:51 > 0:13:54- I was technical when I answered first of all because the actually,
0:13:54 > 0:13:59because I have been Chancellor, what you do to stimulate businesses
0:13:59 > 0:14:02and nurse people out of it has to be technical. Small businesses, we
0:14:02 > 0:14:05do have an enterprise loan guarantee scheme I think it's
0:14:05 > 0:14:09called, guaranteeing loans to small businesses. Only yesterday the
0:14:09 > 0:14:12limits were raised. I don't mind people haven't heard of it, they
0:14:12 > 0:14:15won't t only appears in the Financial Times probably. I
0:14:15 > 0:14:18mentioned the apprenticeships, we have a lot on youth unemployment.
0:14:18 > 0:14:23The things we have scrapped weren't working. It's the people who worked
0:14:23 > 0:14:30on the schemes who are pro- our youth contract is extremely good
0:14:30 > 0:14:40and we have got to... We have been down the list. But I want two brief
0:14:40 > 0:14:45
0:14:45 > 0:14:51One of the most awful responses, Tesco taking on people for free.
0:14:51 > 0:14:56Jobseeker's allowance and nothing else. It's a disgusting attempt by
0:14:56 > 0:15:01big corporations to exploit unemployment and if this Government
0:15:01 > 0:15:07- it's their response. Susan Kramer, on behalf of the Government, you
0:15:07 > 0:15:13can answer the point. Injure plan is to live beyond our means and the
0:15:13 > 0:15:18jobs we create. Slave labour is acceptable? Without paying them?
0:15:18 > 0:15:28Stop yelling and take a look. and join the Green Government.
0:15:28 > 0:15:29
0:15:29 > 0:15:37They've got lots of people like you. I think it's crucial that people
0:15:37 > 0:15:40know there are things like 1.1 billion going on subsidising youth
0:15:40 > 0:15:43in work, work experience apprenticeships, so the universal
0:15:43 > 0:15:47credit will mean you can go back to work without losing benefit. There
0:15:47 > 0:15:50is a raising of the income tax starting point, so when you are
0:15:50 > 0:15:56working you get to keep more of your money. All of those things are
0:15:56 > 0:16:00going to help fuel and build the growth in the economy and the jobs
0:16:00 > 0:16:05which are absolutely crucial. When we see a recovery in the eurozone,
0:16:05 > 0:16:08which I predict later this year, you will see another surge.
0:16:08 > 0:16:14said briefly, that you thought that Ken Clarke was pessimistic talking
0:16:14 > 0:16:18about five years. What do you think, when the economy will recover and
0:16:18 > 0:16:24the figures will fall? We are starting to see signs now. They are
0:16:24 > 0:16:28choppy and they'll be shaky. When will it be down to a decent level?
0:16:28 > 0:16:36You'll start to see some real improvement even feeding through to
0:16:36 > 0:16:39numbers by the year end. It will be slow. We have to prepare people for
0:16:39 > 0:16:44the fact we have to stick to the task for maybe four years until
0:16:44 > 0:16:49whatever time we get back to normal, economic growth. The woman in
0:16:50 > 0:16:55yellow. What the Government is also doing is pushing people, the most
0:16:55 > 0:17:05vulnerable and poor people in our communities, into work when they
0:17:05 > 0:17:05
0:17:05 > 0:17:09are not ready to. And no pay. connected, because what you have
0:17:09 > 0:17:16who are people on sickness benefits being pushed into employment or
0:17:16 > 0:17:20pushed towards it when they are not fit to work. That's the reality.
0:17:20 > 0:17:25You might not like it. A comment from over there. Then I must move
0:17:25 > 0:17:31on. We have used a quarter of our time. We'll come back again and
0:17:31 > 0:17:35again. Can I come back to Susan on one point? Make your point. About
0:17:35 > 0:17:41the jobs. I was reading yesterday it's the highest unemployment for
0:17:41 > 0:17:4417 years and there's supposed to be 10,000 jobs on the market and there
0:17:44 > 0:17:49are 460,000 jobs in the economy. Can I ask where those jobs are?
0:17:49 > 0:17:54don't see them, is what you mean? don't see those jobs. I can't go
0:17:54 > 0:18:00around the table once again. We must move on to another question. A
0:18:00 > 0:18:04question from David Philips, please. Does the election of police
0:18:04 > 0:18:08commissioners risk politicising the police force? The proposal to elect
0:18:09 > 0:18:13police commissioners and one of our panel is proposing to stand as a
0:18:13 > 0:18:16commissioner, in Humberside. John Prescott, does the election of
0:18:16 > 0:18:23commissioners politicise the police force? Is it a good idea? Susan
0:18:23 > 0:18:27Kramer? My great opposition to this is because I just think politics
0:18:27 > 0:18:31and police don't mix. As you probably gathered, I lived for many
0:18:31 > 0:18:35years in the United States and I saw some good elected police
0:18:35 > 0:18:39commissioners, but my goodness, I saw some who are very political. I
0:18:40 > 0:18:43would wish we didn't have this system, but since we've got it and
0:18:43 > 0:18:46I say this without in anyway denigrating John, I would like to
0:18:47 > 0:18:51see people come forward who are independent members of the
0:18:51 > 0:18:56community, not associated with political parties. I don't want to
0:18:56 > 0:19:00see, if wherever possible, I would like to avoid having party
0:19:00 > 0:19:03political politics tied in, in anyway. How can awe void it,
0:19:03 > 0:19:09because parties - John Prescott you'll stand as the Labour
0:19:09 > 0:19:13candidate, won't you? Yes. I say this to people who are listening,
0:19:13 > 0:19:22because there will be people listening who would come forward,
0:19:22 > 0:19:28who would be able to play the roles. What is the point? What will they
0:19:28 > 0:19:32do? It's coalition policy. I don't care. To me the reality is that
0:19:32 > 0:19:36policing is far too precious to become party political. People have
0:19:36 > 0:19:42to have confidence and faith that there is no political colour in the
0:19:42 > 0:19:48police that are out on the streets. John Prescott. You are standing as
0:19:49 > 0:19:53a commissioner. I'm standing. I voted against this. I voted and my
0:19:53 > 0:19:59party voted against it. Why are you standing? If you will let me answer
0:19:59 > 0:20:09it, clever guy. I'm not being clever. You are. Give me the chance
0:20:09 > 0:20:12to give an answer. Don't push me. It's that one. It's the left hook.
0:20:12 > 0:20:16It's a very important point. We opposed this and I voted against it
0:20:16 > 0:20:20too, because the fear was it would politicise it. That is one of the
0:20:20 > 0:20:24difficulty. We also said it's going to cost �125 million to run these
0:20:24 > 0:20:29elections and you could have had 4,000 police on front-line duties.
0:20:29 > 0:20:32That is what the Labour Party wanted. However, the Government
0:20:32 > 0:20:37have decided they are going to have this. It is very much political,
0:20:37 > 0:20:40whatever you might say about it. We have decided we have to fight that
0:20:40 > 0:20:44election. In those circumstances, I have been prepared to offer myself
0:20:44 > 0:20:47as a candidate in the area of Humberside, perhaps to avoid some
0:20:47 > 0:20:51of these difficulties that may come about. Once they decided the
0:20:51 > 0:20:53election and once that was the policy and I might say, I voted
0:20:53 > 0:20:57against going into the Common Market, but once the people decide
0:20:57 > 0:21:05to go in, as politicians, you get on with the job and that's what I'm
0:21:05 > 0:21:08offering to do. Can you tell us what would you do? What power do
0:21:08 > 0:21:12you see yourself wielding over the police? It's set out in the
0:21:12 > 0:21:15protocol. What do you want to do different from the moment? They are
0:21:15 > 0:21:18getting rid of the Police Authority and putting in elected
0:21:18 > 0:21:23commissioners and that commissioner will have the power to dismiss. It
0:21:23 > 0:21:28is quite a radical proposal. It is a statutory duty on the
0:21:28 > 0:21:31commissioner to ariev at a plan with the Chief Constable -- arrive
0:21:31 > 0:21:35at the plan with the Chief Constable, to work out policies for
0:21:35 > 0:21:40five years and you have to become the community voice to make sure
0:21:40 > 0:21:44that influences the panel. That is laid out in the protocol. I'm
0:21:44 > 0:21:47following that. You have these in the United States, Julie Meyer,
0:21:47 > 0:21:53would you like to see them in Britain? It's not something that I
0:21:53 > 0:21:57really follow closely. Nothing to say about that. Ken Clarke? I think
0:21:57 > 0:22:02you have to give the people more credit for common sense actually,
0:22:02 > 0:22:05because I don't think they will vote for people who just stand for
0:22:05 > 0:22:08commissioner on straight-forward party political exchanges about
0:22:08 > 0:22:12levels of police spending or whatever it happens to be and I
0:22:12 > 0:22:16think what we will get is them voting for people who persuade the
0:22:16 > 0:22:20public that they are going to be accountable for the overall crime
0:22:20 > 0:22:23and law enforcement strategy in the county. We have always had that.
0:22:23 > 0:22:28The Chief Constable can't do that. He's in charge of operations. He
0:22:28 > 0:22:33actually is the commander of the Police Service, but there's a limit
0:22:33 > 0:22:37to the extent in which he can engage in partisan debate about the
0:22:37 > 0:22:41policy locally. We have a Police Authority, which is meant to be the
0:22:41 > 0:22:44public body that is responsible. That's meant to be accountable to
0:22:44 > 0:22:48the public. I very much doubt whether anybody in this audience
0:22:48 > 0:22:53has the first idea what their Police Authority is, what it does,
0:22:53 > 0:22:57they probably never had any contact with it. It doesn't work. We are
0:22:57 > 0:23:00trying to make the Police Service more accountable by having a figure,
0:23:01 > 0:23:05who will be identified, because he will be voted for and set out, as
0:23:05 > 0:23:10John will have to, if he becomes the candidate, what exactly he's
0:23:10 > 0:23:13going to propose and discuss as a strategy, to tackle things in
0:23:13 > 0:23:17Humberside are worried about. are the Justice Secretary. What
0:23:17 > 0:23:22kinds of things - I'm not responsible. You know about these
0:23:22 > 0:23:28things. You are a grand figure in the coalition Government. What sort
0:23:28 > 0:23:31of things? Actually I would wish to start debating here how we tackle
0:23:31 > 0:23:36the problems in Nottingham on Friday and Saturday night without
0:23:36 > 0:23:40destroying it as a cultural centre. Whether we are giving enough
0:23:40 > 0:23:44attention to antisocial behaviour, to some of the more serious crimes.
0:23:45 > 0:23:48How you are going to identify the crime which seems to be organiseded
0:23:48 > 0:23:52in parts of the county -- organised in parts of the country and the
0:23:52 > 0:23:57public will identify with an elected commissioner and villagers
0:23:57 > 0:24:01and parts of Nottingham will go to the commissioner and expect him to
0:24:01 > 0:24:06know what is really bothering people in Bradford or wherever and
0:24:06 > 0:24:09will discuss what actually ought to be concentrated on if it's not
0:24:09 > 0:24:12being done so now. The Chief Constable will have control of the
0:24:12 > 0:24:16Police Service and delivering it. The Chief Constable will discuss
0:24:16 > 0:24:20with the commissioner, but this is all new to the public, because the
0:24:20 > 0:24:24public at the moment are not engaged in this. They write to
0:24:24 > 0:24:28their MP saying not enough is being done by all the youths who come
0:24:28 > 0:24:32every weekend and break up the bus shelter in my constituency. Then
0:24:32 > 0:24:38no-one of them ever writes to the Police Authority because they
0:24:38 > 0:24:43wouldn't know who it is. It will be more accountable. I have a question
0:24:43 > 0:24:47for John Prescott. I'm a lawyer myself and I want to know having
0:24:47 > 0:24:52been involved in an assault yourself, what - how do you feel
0:24:52 > 0:24:56you actually qualify for this role of Police Commissioner? Well I
0:24:56 > 0:24:59suppose you could say out of any politician and you might believe it
0:24:59 > 0:25:02is true, that goes into a job and probably not from that area, if it
0:25:02 > 0:25:06was justice, could I have any judgment in that, if it's in
0:25:07 > 0:25:12transport you could argue that, but you are putting yourself forward
0:25:12 > 0:25:16and the people will make a decision. He's talking about you throwing a
0:25:16 > 0:25:19punch. I recognise the lawyer's language. What I'm asking is how do
0:25:19 > 0:25:24you feel you are qualified for the role having assaulted somebody
0:25:24 > 0:25:28yourself and as a lawyer I can tell you it's an assault? I can tell
0:25:28 > 0:25:33it's a lawyer's question. What this new proposal is to express the view
0:25:33 > 0:25:36to become the voice of the people on their concerns, many which Ken
0:25:36 > 0:25:41has just said and to see it's put into the plan. I think I can do
0:25:41 > 0:25:44that. I've been 40 years a MP and there are things I can do. I think
0:25:44 > 0:25:49I bring the skill to understand and work with people to express their
0:25:49 > 0:25:52view in the crime plan for the area. I don't have to be a lawyer for
0:25:52 > 0:25:57that. You Sir up there on left. APPLAUSE
0:25:57 > 0:26:00I would like to know who will pay for the commissioners and the
0:26:00 > 0:26:04elections for the commissioners. Is it local Government or central
0:26:04 > 0:26:11Government and if it is local, will that mean even more cuts which we
0:26:11 > 0:26:16can ill afford? You will may one way or the other. Central taxation.
0:26:16 > 0:26:20The man there. I don't think we need a figurehead. We all know what
0:26:20 > 0:26:28the problems. We need more police on the street sorting out the
0:26:28 > 0:26:30problems. The woman up there. live in a small town outside of
0:26:30 > 0:26:35Nottingham. We have antisocial behaviour problems. The way we deal
0:26:35 > 0:26:38with it is our local police force always have meetings with us. My
0:26:38 > 0:26:42local Bobby knows me, knows the kids in the area. I talk to him and
0:26:42 > 0:26:45they do get stuff done. I agree with what people are saying, we
0:26:45 > 0:26:50need more police on the street talking to us rather than some
0:26:50 > 0:26:54commissioner in an office waiting for a letter. Even with the
0:26:54 > 0:26:59commissioner, they are going to reduce the resources by 20%, 16,000
0:26:59 > 0:27:03police are going to go, they are the front-line people that people
0:27:03 > 0:27:07want around in the streets. This will reduce the community police
0:27:07 > 0:27:10and that profile policing that you are asking for. Owen Jones. This
0:27:10 > 0:27:15Government says there is no money, but they always manage to find a
0:27:15 > 0:27:20bit to shell out for their pet projects like the commissioners.
0:27:20 > 0:27:28The fear is about politicising this. I think the danger across the
0:27:29 > 0:27:32country, will be Robocop and Judge Dread and under the last Government,
0:27:32 > 0:27:35though crime fell, fear went up, because you saw so much of this
0:27:35 > 0:27:38rhetoric about law and order. I also think in terms of
0:27:38 > 0:27:42accountibility, what will happen is the Government will say, if crime
0:27:42 > 0:27:45goes up, it's got nothing to do with us. This is now the
0:27:45 > 0:27:48responsibility of the crime commissioners. When actually crime
0:27:48 > 0:27:51isn't just a local issue, it's to do things like the economy, which
0:27:51 > 0:28:01the Government has to be held accountable for and I think this
0:28:01 > 0:28:02
0:28:02 > 0:28:07could end up letting them off the hook. The man up there. I hear what
0:28:07 > 0:28:11Mr Prescott says, but as a serving prison officer if I was to commit a
0:28:11 > 0:28:15criminal act and be found guilty I would expect to be sacked and lose
0:28:15 > 0:28:24my job. How can that be right to then stand on a moral high ground
0:28:24 > 0:28:31to become a commissioner? working for the Murdoch press.
0:28:31 > 0:28:35wasn't charged with an offence. main reaction of people is to spend
0:28:35 > 0:28:39more money for more policemen. It would be nice, but it's not a
0:28:39 > 0:28:43solution to the whole problem of policing, and we have developed
0:28:43 > 0:28:49community policing and it's been a good innovation, but it's not
0:28:49 > 0:28:52enough. They've developed other things, tar getting the consistent
0:28:52 > 0:29:00offenders, but we have gangs and problems with drugs and we have
0:29:00 > 0:29:06problems in this county, not as lawless as everybody outside thinks
0:29:06 > 0:29:09it is and it is extraordinary that people can ignore the fact we have
0:29:09 > 0:29:12a serious discussion with someone from the community about what
0:29:13 > 0:29:22priorities we can devote more attention to. I think it will be
0:29:23 > 0:29:25
0:29:25 > 0:29:31What they've said about John Prescott's suitability for the job.
0:29:31 > 0:29:35I will defend John, we are getting mellow in our old able. A guy threw
0:29:35 > 0:29:39an egg, I would of course turned impeckably and turned the other
0:29:39 > 0:29:43cheek. Had they prosecuted John Prescott it's not my view he would
0:29:43 > 0:29:50have been given a severe penalty. There we are. It struck most people
0:29:50 > 0:29:55as rather human at the time. It was just reaction. Julie Meyer, do you
0:29:55 > 0:29:57want to come in on this or not. do think that the way that we
0:29:57 > 0:30:01govern our neighbourhoods and communities is going to change and
0:30:01 > 0:30:05sorry to be the person that keeps on bringing up digital but it is
0:30:05 > 0:30:08changing. I find it incredible to suggest even though it may be the
0:30:08 > 0:30:16case that there's more crime because the economy is difficult,
0:30:16 > 0:30:20tpwou suggest that somehow that's OK, it's not OK. But the point is
0:30:20 > 0:30:23just that there are costs, as the gentleman said, there are costs to
0:30:23 > 0:30:27doing this. We have to think through the most efficient way and
0:30:27 > 0:30:37the way that society organises itself is changing. OK and if you
0:30:37 > 0:30:42
0:30:42 > 0:30:50are on Twitter, and tweeting tonight, we trend high each week. I
0:30:50 > 0:30:53don't know why you laugh at that. Do you know what it means? I do! I
0:30:53 > 0:30:56am asked every week if I know what it means and I read it afterwards
0:30:56 > 0:30:59and have a look at what people are saying because it's a great
0:30:59 > 0:31:03dialogue that goes on in the country about this programme. The
0:31:03 > 0:31:08argument goes on all around the country, universities, student
0:31:08 > 0:31:13unions, even a place, a cinema in hack me where they sit -- Hackney
0:31:13 > 0:31:18where they sit around and debate the programme after. We are at the
0:31:18 > 0:31:24centre of public debate. If you are not into Twitter you can text us.
0:31:24 > 0:31:27Press the red button if you are watching digitally. Or you can go
0:31:27 > 0:31:33to Ceefax. It brings me to a question from Stephen Parker,
0:31:33 > 0:31:36please. Will the current NHS changes produce quantifyable
0:31:36 > 0:31:41benefits to the public before the next election or will it be looked
0:31:41 > 0:31:46back at as electoral suicide? question is not about the impact of
0:31:46 > 0:31:50things, it's about the way it will work out, will it produce
0:31:50 > 0:31:55quantifyable benefits or looked on as electoral sue? John Prescott --
0:31:55 > 0:32:00suicide? It's certainly got a great tkaeupbg tper it doesn't work out
0:32:00 > 0:32:03as they're proposing. Those idea logical things that mix between
0:32:03 > 0:32:10public and private, we were doing some of that whatever we felt about
0:32:10 > 0:32:14it, but the really putting it down to the doctors in the name of the -
0:32:14 > 0:32:17every health body is against it. I know Ken was Secretary of State,
0:32:17 > 0:32:23will know a lot more about this. But everybody has said it's going
0:32:23 > 0:32:27to fail and don't want it and taken away from the essential requirement
0:32:27 > 0:32:32of the health service. Indeed it was the Prime Minister who said
0:32:32 > 0:32:36it's safe in my hands. Chase clear is doing reorganisation at the same
0:32:36 > 0:32:39time changing all the finances. Of course there were problems with the
0:32:39 > 0:32:42productivity. I can remember discussions in the cabinet. How do
0:32:42 > 0:32:45you measure productivity? How do you measure if somebody is
0:32:45 > 0:32:50healthier than the day before? That's one of the difficulties, but
0:32:50 > 0:32:53it's one of the values that comes from the National Health Service.
0:32:53 > 0:32:57If you get it wrong, I think they will, it will be political suicide.
0:32:57 > 0:33:00This is the thing that people feel very strongly about. I am proud to
0:33:00 > 0:33:06have belonged to a party that brought it in.
0:33:06 > 0:33:12APPLAUSE. All right. I think I am right, you
0:33:12 > 0:33:15were the - when you were health Minister you tried to do almost
0:33:15 > 0:33:20precisely what Andrew Lansley is trying to do. Over 20 years. We
0:33:20 > 0:33:24have had a steady process of reform. That was one interruption when New
0:33:24 > 0:33:29Labour first got in. Introducing competition, choice, trying to
0:33:29 > 0:33:33change the service, modernise it, that has been going on. Blairites,
0:33:33 > 0:33:37one nation Conservatives and orange book liberals have all been driven
0:33:37 > 0:33:42to the same conclusion. At the present time when we are still
0:33:42 > 0:33:45growing spending on the NHS as to one area which has small real terms
0:33:45 > 0:33:49growth. We have an ageing population, rising demand, that
0:33:49 > 0:33:56reform has to be pressed on with to its logical conclusion. I think
0:33:56 > 0:34:00it's a good idea to put into clinical input, what's been
0:34:00 > 0:34:03proposed is the mainstream of where modern health services are going.
0:34:03 > 0:34:08What I found extraordinary, I am reminded of 20 years ago, is the
0:34:08 > 0:34:12same people are producing the same arguments as they have year in,
0:34:12 > 0:34:15year out. They did to Labour. The BMA is quite the most extraordinary
0:34:15 > 0:34:19trade union that I have had to to tussle with and I have tussled with
0:34:20 > 0:34:23quite a lot and all the time they throw ferocious opposition and...
0:34:23 > 0:34:26Doesn't mean they're wrong because they say the same thing over and
0:34:26 > 0:34:30over again. They've been wrong since the NHS started and they
0:34:30 > 0:34:33don't represent all their members because there are many GPs already
0:34:33 > 0:34:37planning the commissions of services under new arrangements
0:34:37 > 0:34:39which Andrew Lansley is proposing. The debate is becoming hysterical.
0:34:39 > 0:34:43The management of the health service is very complex, most
0:34:43 > 0:34:48people don't have the time to actually work out exactly how the
0:34:48 > 0:34:52NHS is run and how the money is distributed. It continues to need
0:34:52 > 0:34:55reform. It will keep - it's kept on top of demand. We have a very good
0:34:55 > 0:34:59health service. It's managed to cope with all the transformations
0:34:59 > 0:35:04of the last 20 years. I am afraid it needs more reform to keep keep
0:35:04 > 0:35:07doing that. It's reactionary this opposition. What about the
0:35:07 > 0:35:13opposition that reported shreu coming from inside cabinet now with
0:35:13 > 0:35:17three cabinet Ministers said to - one saying the Bill must be dropped,
0:35:17 > 0:35:20another saying Lansley must be replaced and another saying the
0:35:20 > 0:35:23reform are doing as much political damage as poll tax. If true my
0:35:23 > 0:35:28colleagues are talking nonsense because they haven't tried to
0:35:28 > 0:35:33relate to me. Have you heard that from any of them. I have not and
0:35:33 > 0:35:38unattributed quotes which some journalist insists he has from a
0:35:38 > 0:35:45source, of course he couldn't tell you who it is, but it's in the
0:35:45 > 0:35:51Murdoch newspaper... It was Iain Duncan Smith's former Chief of
0:35:51 > 0:35:56Staff who said this, Tim Montgomery. Who set himself up as representing
0:35:56 > 0:35:59every active Tory in the country on his blasted website, yes, I know. I
0:35:59 > 0:36:05don't mind, I know what my view is, I have always supported Andrew's
0:36:05 > 0:36:10reforms. I think they're necessary. For us to stop reform - the Welsh
0:36:10 > 0:36:13and the Scots have done terrible things. Their performance is much
0:36:13 > 0:36:17less because they haven't had reform that is the English have had
0:36:17 > 0:36:20over the last 20-odd years and to go back to all the old arguments
0:36:20 > 0:36:22about you can't have private companies coming to the health
0:36:22 > 0:36:26service because John fairly conceded I think the Blair
0:36:26 > 0:36:30Government brought in private companies as providers on a great
0:36:30 > 0:36:38scale. You get innovation, you get change that way. A better service
0:36:38 > 0:36:48for patient. The woman there the older population -. We are getting
0:36:48 > 0:36:54more people into this country as well as the,. Let her speak.
0:36:54 > 0:36:57Everybody's getting older. It's not part of it. You are saying that we
0:36:58 > 0:37:03are getting an older population. Yeah. OK but we have so many people
0:37:03 > 0:37:09coming to this country as well, that is also taking away money from
0:37:09 > 0:37:12the NHS. Julie Meyer. I was going to say regardless we could do
0:37:12 > 0:37:22nothing with the NHS or change it, the point is that healthcare
0:37:22 > 0:37:26globally is changing. In this country companies, private British
0:37:26 > 0:37:31enterprise, why not turn it in a trillion pound British healthcare
0:37:31 > 0:37:39industry because people will buy it internationally and these companies
0:37:39 > 0:37:45here are winning contracts globally. So you would privatise the whole
0:37:45 > 0:37:48thing?? I am just supporting the British entrepreneurs who are are
0:37:48 > 0:37:50transforming the healthcare industry. Let's be clear the Tories
0:37:50 > 0:38:00have absolutely no mandate whatsoever for what they're doing
0:38:00 > 0:38:01
0:38:01 > 0:38:05to our NHS. APPLAUSE. Another Tory Chancellor, Nigel Lawson said the
0:38:05 > 0:38:09NHS was the closest thing to a religion. The Tories knew if they
0:38:09 > 0:38:12put this to the electorate at the last election they would have been
0:38:12 > 0:38:16rejected more decisively than they were. The fact is they said there
0:38:16 > 0:38:21would be no top down reorganisations. We are now seeing
0:38:21 > 0:38:27cap lifted on private patients and NHS hospitals have to provide not
0:38:27 > 0:38:3620% any more but -- 2% any more but up to 49%. I am glad you brought up
0:38:36 > 0:38:40New Labour and laid the foundations of this... I made the point. What
0:38:40 > 0:38:44New Labour did is it opened the door to what the Tories are doing
0:38:44 > 0:38:49now, what Ken will now say is we are taking these reforms. You blame
0:38:49 > 0:38:52New Labour. For laying the foundations, and they'll say we are
0:38:52 > 0:38:58taking it to its logical conclusions. Unless Labour draws a
0:38:58 > 0:39:03line thaupbd past it won't be able to oppose this creeping
0:39:03 > 0:39:06privatisation. Susan Kramer. Perhaps I could try and find a
0:39:06 > 0:39:10little clarity here. I checked on these numbers yesterday. If you set
0:39:10 > 0:39:16aside the GPs who are all in the private sector and always have been,
0:39:16 > 0:39:21and you look at the rest of the NHS, about 5% of the services provided
0:39:21 > 0:39:25either by a private company or a charity or a social enterprise. I
0:39:25 > 0:39:29asked what would happen to that number if we didn't have the Bill
0:39:29 > 0:39:34and the answer was it will go up a little bit and slowly and I asked
0:39:34 > 0:39:37what happens to the number if we have the Bill? The answer was it
0:39:37 > 0:39:41goes up a little bit and slowly. We are talking about something very
0:39:41 > 0:39:45much at the margins and now, thank goodness, competition, whether it's
0:39:45 > 0:39:50in the private sector or social enterprises or charities, can only
0:39:50 > 0:39:55be on the quality of the service they offer. It cannot be on price.
0:39:55 > 0:39:59Could I give you... The question Stephen Parker asked was: will
0:39:59 > 0:40:03there be quantifyable benefits before the next election or will it
0:40:03 > 0:40:07be electoral suicide? When I was an MP I had constant battles with the
0:40:07 > 0:40:10local health service management called the Primary Care Trust
0:40:10 > 0:40:15because they were an arm of Whitehall and they dictated what
0:40:15 > 0:40:20local doctors and nurses and medics could do and I am so in support of
0:40:20 > 0:40:24the idea that now it's those doctors, local medical - you know
0:40:24 > 0:40:28doctors from the hospital, that's a nurses, mental health specialists
0:40:28 > 0:40:34and patients who will form these commissioning groups and the
0:40:34 > 0:40:36management will work for them. And that's turning around who's been
0:40:36 > 0:40:40making decisions in the health health service. I think finally we
0:40:40 > 0:40:45have a chance in our local communities that people who see the
0:40:45 > 0:40:49patients - it will be significantly better because so many of my
0:40:49 > 0:40:55constituents could not get the services that they need or only got
0:40:55 > 0:40:59mediocre services and now doctors have direct input. We have a number
0:40:59 > 0:41:03of people with their hands up. You, Sir. I am chief executive of a
0:41:03 > 0:41:07charity that works in the health and social care sector and I
0:41:07 > 0:41:10totally agree that radical reform of the health sector is required. I
0:41:10 > 0:41:14tkpre with Ken's statement that more money is going from central
0:41:14 > 0:41:18Government into the health sector. The problem at the moment and
0:41:18 > 0:41:23happening over the next few years, is that money is not getting down
0:41:23 > 0:41:27grass roots. It's not getting through from the you Primary Care
0:41:27 > 0:41:30Trusts probably because they're just in shutdown mode. Do you think
0:41:30 > 0:41:34that the whole change, the act itself is going to be politically
0:41:34 > 0:41:39damaging, this is where we began? Whether in the long run by the time
0:41:39 > 0:41:42of the next election it will be seen as success or damaging to the
0:41:42 > 0:41:50coalition? The next 12 months I fear it will be politically
0:41:50 > 0:41:53damaging. One more point here. Competition is great but
0:41:53 > 0:41:56competition costs money and that's taken money away from the frontline
0:41:56 > 0:42:00services because every time you go in and you have got the public
0:42:00 > 0:42:03sector competing with the private sector there's tendering involved.
0:42:03 > 0:42:06Therefore, we are taking more people away from the frontlines
0:42:06 > 0:42:09because they're in these meetings, in presentations, and they're not
0:42:09 > 0:42:14doing what we want them to do, which is provide a health service.
0:42:14 > 0:42:20Thank you very much. I am going to move on now.
0:42:20 > 0:42:25Sarah White. Baroness Warsi suggests religion is
0:42:25 > 0:42:30being sidelined, marginalised and downgraded in the public sphere,
0:42:30 > 0:42:34isn't this a good thing? APPLAUSE. I don't think she was
0:42:35 > 0:42:38referring to the religion of the NHS. Owen Jones. Look, let's be
0:42:38 > 0:42:43clear, religion in this country, private religious belief has been
0:42:43 > 0:42:47on the decline for a long time. Only one in send of us regularly
0:42:47 > 0:42:52attend Church. A poll a few years ago showed less than four out of
0:42:52 > 0:42:57ten of us believe in God. But I think to suggest that, I mean, her
0:42:57 > 0:43:04suggestion was talking about militant secularism. Secularism is
0:43:04 > 0:43:07the state keeping its nose out of private belief. Religion more than
0:43:08 > 0:43:12punches its weight in this country. A third of faith schools, a third
0:43:12 > 0:43:15of schools are faith schools which is wrong t divides kids up by their
0:43:15 > 0:43:19religious beliefs of their parents. We are one of the few countries to
0:43:19 > 0:43:23have unelected religious figures in our legislature outside Iran. I do
0:43:23 > 0:43:27think there is a serious point which was missed in what she said,
0:43:27 > 0:43:31it's when people's prejudice and bigotry is dressed up as secularism
0:43:31 > 0:43:35and I am particularly disturbed by the sides of anti-Muslim prejudice
0:43:35 > 0:43:38in this country. I grew up with many young Muslims and I never see
0:43:38 > 0:43:43the reality of their lives portrayed when Muslims appear in
0:43:43 > 0:43:48the press at all it's as radicals, terrorists, extremists. In fact,
0:43:48 > 0:43:52there was a survey done a few years ago which showed they took a random
0:43:52 > 0:43:56newspaper week and it showed that in that coverage of Muslims nine
0:43:56 > 0:44:01out of ten were negative articles. There is a rising tide of anti-
0:44:01 > 0:44:07Muslim prejudice which dresses itself up as secularism and that's
0:44:07 > 0:44:12a serious point we need to address. APPLAUSE.
0:44:12 > 0:44:22Julie Meyer, do you see the Government's, successive
0:44:22 > 0:44:26
0:44:26 > 0:44:30governments as endorsing militant She was talking about things like
0:44:30 > 0:44:35not being able to display signs of religion in Government buildings
0:44:35 > 0:44:40and people not wearing the cross or allowed to or dress as they chose
0:44:40 > 0:44:43in circumstances. You can take it - I believe in the separation of
0:44:43 > 0:44:48Church and State. I think faith and belief is an individual choice and
0:44:48 > 0:44:51what the media is highlighting this and so on and it should be a level
0:44:51 > 0:44:55playing fold. People should be able to do what they want, whether that
0:44:55 > 0:45:01is believe or not. The only other comment I would say, as somebody
0:45:01 > 0:45:11who has been here for 15 years, but the UK is a rashal culture. If you
0:45:11 > 0:45:12
0:45:12 > 0:45:18go to others, it is much more -- rational culture. If you go to
0:45:18 > 0:45:21others, it is much more complicated. We are rational and analytical and
0:45:21 > 0:45:24working with entrepreneurs in the broadest sense of the word, they
0:45:25 > 0:45:33believe that they are going to make things happen and I think we are
0:45:33 > 0:45:41very analytical. You are very hot on entrepreneurs.
0:45:41 > 0:45:45digitalisation. John Prescott, religion is being downgraded by
0:45:46 > 0:45:50Baroness Warsi. I don't feel strongly about religion, but a lot
0:45:50 > 0:45:53do and it's a matter of faith. If they get comfort from that, fair
0:45:53 > 0:45:57enough. I found it difficult when Government intervenes to implement
0:45:57 > 0:46:01what is a priority for one particular religious belief. In
0:46:01 > 0:46:06this, it is Christian belief. Largely coming from our own history
0:46:06 > 0:46:10and the Church for example. The Queen is the head of it. What I
0:46:10 > 0:46:14think - and it blew up whether you should be able to pray on the
0:46:15 > 0:46:20agenda. The courts have ruled it shouldn't be. I think that's right.
0:46:20 > 0:46:24Now, will Government intervene to restore that right on official
0:46:24 > 0:46:27business to put that there will be prayers. We have it in the House of
0:46:27 > 0:46:33Commons and the Lords and we have done it traditionally. I have to
0:46:33 > 0:46:37say if you want to ask a question, there are so many people in and you
0:46:37 > 0:46:41can't ask a question unless you go in for prayers in the House of
0:46:41 > 0:46:45Lords. You need to put your card in the House of Commons. The test will
0:46:45 > 0:46:49come, but it will be wrong if the Government decide to say that this
0:46:49 > 0:46:51will now be legally right for the local authorities to impose it on
0:46:51 > 0:46:58the agenda. That is wrong and that's where the Government
0:46:58 > 0:47:04intervene and create this kind of problem. This was Mr Justice
0:47:04 > 0:47:13Ouseley, who said you couldn't -- you could have prayers, but you
0:47:13 > 0:47:17couldn't have them on the agenda? He was interPletting a local
0:47:17 > 0:47:22Government act, who said they didn't have the powers to do it.
0:47:22 > 0:47:28It's in the process of being changed. There is a new bill to
0:47:28 > 0:47:32give local authorities to do it. It's a rather passing phase and it
0:47:32 > 0:47:35will be up to local authorities once we have the new act in place.
0:47:35 > 0:47:39On the main question, I don't have any particular religious faith
0:47:39 > 0:47:43myself, but I do find militant athiesm rather teedious and it's
0:47:43 > 0:47:48having a fashion at the moment. Some otherwise distinguished people
0:47:48 > 0:47:52are joining in with it. I respect other people's faith and people get
0:47:52 > 0:47:56straight strength and it's beneficial to society as a whole
0:47:56 > 0:48:01when people practice their faith properly and we are a tolerant
0:48:01 > 0:48:05society. Was Baroness Warsi right to say that religion was being
0:48:05 > 0:48:10undergraded? Some people try to. The thing she cites varies. I try
0:48:10 > 0:48:13to find the places where you are not allowed to celebrate Christmas.
0:48:13 > 0:48:18I think it's normally a large public reaction to reports that
0:48:18 > 0:48:23people are banning Christmas. It's quite difficult to find local
0:48:23 > 0:48:27authorities. The Daily Mail said the story was a lie. If people take
0:48:27 > 0:48:33political correctness to absurd lengths it's rather teedious.
0:48:33 > 0:48:40sound except tell about what the co-chairman said? The people of all
0:48:40 > 0:48:44faiths add to it and we have a secular Government. When people
0:48:44 > 0:48:50become attacking with schools - It's segregation. They are some of
0:48:50 > 0:48:54the best schools in the country. It's better that kids mix from a
0:48:54 > 0:49:02whole range of backgrounds. I'm not in favour of the anti-religion.
0:49:02 > 0:49:08woman up there. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the Bible it says
0:49:08 > 0:49:12that Jesus himself that power - state and religion should be
0:49:12 > 0:49:17spraitd, but last year we couldn't -- separated, but last year we
0:49:17 > 0:49:24couldn't escape the Pope when all the roads shut down in London and
0:49:24 > 0:49:31Birmingham. It seems kind of ridiculous. It doesn't mean the
0:49:31 > 0:49:35Pope can't make a visit. That's the kind - with great respect - but in
0:49:35 > 0:49:44my opinion that is slightly overreacting. There are millions of
0:49:44 > 0:49:50Kath lings. -- Catholics. I'm not saying he can't visit, but the
0:49:50 > 0:49:54accusation that the Church is being downgraded. It seems ridiculous.
0:49:54 > 0:49:58is the head of state of course, as John is pointing out. The Woman In
0:49:58 > 0:50:05Black, but with the black hair. think that we are very, very lucky
0:50:05 > 0:50:08to live in a secular country. If you observe at the moment the US
0:50:08 > 0:50:12Republican candidate race, they debate things like abortion and
0:50:12 > 0:50:18things like the morality of contraception. We don't waste our
0:50:18 > 0:50:25time with that in this country. We have completely separate Church and
0:50:25 > 0:50:28State and we don't have to get involved in religious politics. We
0:50:28 > 0:50:37should teach about all and we should make no impact on political
0:50:37 > 0:50:41life. APPLAUSE
0:50:41 > 0:50:46You Sir. I want to say faith does influence the law. The reason that
0:50:46 > 0:50:49I can't have a marriage to my male partner and have had to have a
0:50:49 > 0:50:52civil partnership, because they wouldn't want to call it marriage
0:50:52 > 0:50:59because of faith, so it does interfluence the law and to say it
0:50:59 > 0:51:01doesn't is nonsense. Susan Kramer. I was going to say to the last
0:51:01 > 0:51:07gentleman, we are working on that and hopefully you will have the
0:51:07 > 0:51:13choices in the future. We don't do militant here in the UK and I just
0:51:13 > 0:51:18love that about it. That our big battle over religion and secularism
0:51:18 > 0:51:22is over where our prayers get set on the agenda before the agenda or
0:51:22 > 0:51:27on it. The lady earlier was making the comment about the United States.
0:51:27 > 0:51:32You have to look and it's not just the fact that their religious
0:51:32 > 0:51:36arguments ormoral issues such as abortion, or contraception, but
0:51:36 > 0:51:40it's the way religion shapes tax policy, benefits policy, shaping
0:51:40 > 0:51:44foreign policy in the Middle East. It seems to me we have stepped away
0:51:45 > 0:51:49from all of that and we found a way where people comfortably live
0:51:49 > 0:51:52together, the moments of tension seem to me to be slight and around
0:51:52 > 0:51:57small issues. I'm so grateful, because I think the virtue of
0:51:57 > 0:52:02tolerance is part of the framework of our community and long may it be
0:52:02 > 0:52:07so. Yet in Parliament, Catholics are not allowed to get married?
0:52:07 > 0:52:11Probably because nobody ever said, "Could I do it?" My son did and he
0:52:11 > 0:52:16happens to be a Catholic. You cannot get married if you are a
0:52:16 > 0:52:26Catholic. It is just daft. You can add it to your list of things to
0:52:26 > 0:52:30get sorted. When you sort out gay marriage will you also allow
0:52:30 > 0:52:35heterosexual partners to have a civil partnership? To be honest I
0:52:35 > 0:52:39haven't wrapped my head around that. It's a very, very simple point and
0:52:39 > 0:52:44a lot of people who like not to have a marriage, but a civil
0:52:44 > 0:52:48partnership. It does seem an issue. You can't do it. It doesn't seem to
0:52:48 > 0:52:52me to be a problem. We'll look to you. We have five minutes left and
0:52:52 > 0:52:57I get ticked off if we don't finish on time, so we better go to this
0:52:57 > 0:53:02question, which is from Michael Bction ullett, in the light --
0:53:02 > 0:53:06Bullet, in the light of where David Cameron was today. What difference
0:53:06 > 0:53:14would an independent Scotland to make to my life in Nottingham?
0:53:14 > 0:53:21you think it would make a difference? Not particularly.
0:53:21 > 0:53:25are indifferent? Very much. John Prescott? Well, if it's outside the
0:53:25 > 0:53:29UK I believe in the United Kingdom framework, but I tell you what will
0:53:29 > 0:53:34come from this, something I've long believed in, having regional
0:53:34 > 0:53:37Government, so you should be able to have your own powers to deal and
0:53:37 > 0:53:41resources to deal with your problems. That's part of devolution.
0:53:41 > 0:53:45I think it's coming. I failed to get it in the north-east when I put
0:53:45 > 0:53:50it to them, but devolution in Wales and Scotland took 20 years from the
0:53:50 > 0:53:54first referendum to the second one. Distribution of power is important,
0:53:54 > 0:53:59because the arguments about the money differences between Scotland
0:53:59 > 0:54:04and England as much as between the north, the Midlands and the south.
0:54:04 > 0:54:09It needs to be changed. That's what you think Nottingham will get out
0:54:09 > 0:54:16of an independent Scotland. Ken Clarke? I think it woe diminish the
0:54:16 > 0:54:23role of the English and Scots, with the Welsh and Northern Ireland
0:54:23 > 0:54:28people, in that our clout would be reduced. Michael doesn't think so.
0:54:28 > 0:54:32When you get into trade and economic and G20 roles and with the
0:54:32 > 0:54:36IMF and the World Bank, the fact for all of us to choose to diminish
0:54:36 > 0:54:40ourselves for the Scots to become a small European country and for the
0:54:41 > 0:54:47English, Welsh and Northern Ireland people to become a much-diminished
0:54:47 > 0:54:52one can indirectly have a result to look after everybody in Nottingham.
0:54:52 > 0:54:57I see no point in reviving Medieval kingdoms to make sure we are all
0:54:57 > 0:55:01smaller on the world stage. It can affect your daily world. Be very
0:55:01 > 0:55:04afraid. Owen Jones are you afraid? This is a panel of non-Scots and
0:55:04 > 0:55:08it's up to the Scottish people what they do with their future. I do
0:55:08 > 0:55:12think actually it would be a shame. I think dividing people up and
0:55:12 > 0:55:17nationalism are not good things. I think many of us and we are mixed
0:55:17 > 0:55:21communities and most of my family live in Scotland, and I partly grew
0:55:21 > 0:55:27up in Falkirk and I think it would be a shame to break up people.
0:55:27 > 0:55:30difference would it make to life in Nottingham? You could say if
0:55:30 > 0:55:35Cornwall disappeared? I don't think it's good to break people up. We
0:55:35 > 0:55:39should unite where we can. woman there? If it does make a
0:55:39 > 0:55:46difference, shouldn't we all be allowed to vote, not just Scottish
0:55:46 > 0:55:50people? APPLAUSE
0:55:50 > 0:55:53Susan Kramer, if it makes a difference, what about that?
0:55:53 > 0:55:57think it's self-determination for the Scots and you could argue that
0:55:57 > 0:56:01everybody should have a voice, but it seems to me Scotland is far more
0:56:01 > 0:56:04impacted than England and Wales and Northern Ireland are impacted.
0:56:04 > 0:56:06There seemed to be a lot of applause for that point.
0:56:06 > 0:56:10understand that, but I think for those who are living in Scotland
0:56:10 > 0:56:14they have to decide. You don't want to force people to be part of a
0:56:14 > 0:56:17country if that's not what they want to do. If they want to pursue
0:56:17 > 0:56:22their own identity and feel they have to have a country that is
0:56:22 > 0:56:30spraised in which to do it, it seems to -- separated in which to
0:56:30 > 0:56:34do it, it seems to me OK. We cross the borders without thinking of
0:56:34 > 0:56:42them as borders and there is a sort of element of brotherhood. I don't
0:56:42 > 0:56:49think we particularly benefited that, so when Ireland separated.
0:56:49 > 0:56:55You want Ireland back in too? I don't think you'll get that. I must
0:56:55 > 0:57:03stop you. I think it's really ultimately economics. This comes up
0:57:03 > 0:57:08- It's the entrepreneurs' problem? With Quebec and Canada. There is an
0:57:08 > 0:57:12element of not breaking away. They can't afford to break away. I think
0:57:12 > 0:57:15it's a little of nationalism that rears its head all the time and so
0:57:15 > 0:57:19on. Do you think it will make a difference? I don't think it will
0:57:19 > 0:57:23ever happen. That's another thing. Will it make a difference? To the
0:57:23 > 0:57:28average person in Nottingham, I think the economics are such that
0:57:28 > 0:57:34England would be better off if Scotland were separate. I think
0:57:34 > 0:57:38most people understand that. more point. I think what will
0:57:38 > 0:57:43happen is if Scotland go out there and fail the taxpayer might be
0:57:43 > 0:57:47asked to bail them out and that would be the effect. You don't want
0:57:47 > 0:57:52them to leave because they might fail? Yes. We have no Scots on the
0:57:52 > 0:57:57programme and we were just talking about Nottingham so forgive us for
0:57:57 > 0:58:01that. We'll come back to this no doubt at another time. We are in
0:58:01 > 0:58:07Tunbridge Wells next week. The historian Simon Schama will be one
0:58:07 > 0:58:14of the panellists and then in Dewsbury. Go to the website if you