:00:18. > :00:25.Tonight, we're in Tunbridge Wells and welcome to Question Time.
:00:25. > :00:29.And with me on the panel here, the communicationss minister, Ed Vaizey,
:00:29. > :00:33.the Shadow Attorney-General, Emily Thornberry, the deputy leader of
:00:33. > :00:38.the UK Independence Party, Paul Nuttall. The Daily Telegraph
:00:38. > :00:48.columnist, Cristina Odone and historian and broadcaster, Simon
:00:48. > :00:54.
:00:54. > :00:58.Thank you very much. Our first question is from Rachel Sadler,
:00:58. > :01:02.please. Rachel Sadler. Hi, if David Cameron wants bankers
:01:02. > :01:08.bonuses to be linked to success, why did he allow RBS, a failing
:01:08. > :01:12.bank, to be paid bonuses of �785 million? That announced today.
:01:12. > :01:20.Their losses doubled and their bonuses stayed at �785 million.
:01:20. > :01:27.They doubled from last year as far as we can tell. What's going on?
:01:27. > :01:30.Emily Thornberry. I agree with you Rachel. I think it is disgraceful.
:01:30. > :01:34.I cannot understand why it is, it used to be that you would be given
:01:34. > :01:37.a contract to do a job and you would be expected to do it well and
:01:37. > :01:42.you didn't need to have a bonus to make sure you did it well. We have
:01:42. > :01:45.got ourselves into a spiral on this with bankers expecting ever
:01:45. > :01:49.increasing bonuses and it seems to have got disconnected from whether
:01:49. > :01:53.or not they are going to do a good job, even when when they are
:01:53. > :01:58.failing they are expect to go get a good bonus and they are failing.
:01:58. > :02:02.You know, small businesses have got �10 billion less in terms of
:02:02. > :02:05.investment from banks last year. They are failing us all and frankly
:02:05. > :02:09.it is quite right for Ed Miliband to have stood up a year ago and to
:02:09. > :02:12.have said, "We have to stop this culture. We have to stop. We have
:02:12. > :02:17.to start being a little bit more responsible. If we are supposed to
:02:17. > :02:22.be in it together, then let's be in it all together. Let's make sure we
:02:22. > :02:26.work work together to improve this country." Why is it we need to
:02:26. > :02:31.continue feed bankers more and more bonuses. When it comes to the Royal
:02:31. > :02:34.Bank of Scotland, we own the Royal Bank of Scotland. We bailed out
:02:34. > :02:38.that bank. We have certain expectations of it and they are
:02:38. > :02:48.failing us and yet they still want more. Stephen Hester, who runs it,
:02:48. > :02:50.
:02:51. > :02:53.says big losses... APPLAUSE
:02:53. > :02:55.Stephen Hester, the boss of RBS, in defending this today, said big
:02:55. > :03:00.losses are a sign of success, Ed Vaizey.
:03:00. > :03:07.Well, I don't own a banker's salary... There is a defence that
:03:07. > :03:10.we can put up for the RBS bonuses announced today because the core
:03:10. > :03:14.part of the bank, the bank that will be left once some of the
:03:14. > :03:17.assets have been got rid of did make a profit of something like �5
:03:17. > :03:20.billion and the people who are getting the bonuses, a lot of them
:03:20. > :03:26.are the new team that's been brought in that Stephen Hester went
:03:26. > :03:30.out and got to turn around RBS and as Emily says, we own RBS so we
:03:30. > :03:34.have an interest in RBS being a successful bank. So they are being
:03:34. > :03:37.paid a bonus in order to do the job of turning around that bank and
:03:37. > :03:41.paying back the money that we as taxpayers have given them. I think
:03:41. > :03:46.it is also important to put these bonuses in context. They are now
:03:46. > :03:52.about a third of what they were two or three years ago, under the last
:03:52. > :03:56.Labour Government, the bonus pot was �1.3 billion. It is about �400
:03:56. > :03:59.billion like for like comparison with RBS. It is only a �200,000
:03:59. > :04:05.cash bonus and the rest of the bonuses are paid in shares. So if
:04:05. > :04:10.they are to get this bonus then the share price of RBS will have to do
:04:10. > :04:15.well and they have to turn around it around. I I agree with what the
:04:15. > :04:20.public mood is... Do something about it. We pay large salaries to
:04:20. > :04:25.bankers at a time when we are going through a a period of austerity. We
:04:25. > :04:30.need to turn RBS around. It It needs to be successful. We should
:04:30. > :04:37.remember how much the financial services contribute to our economy.
:04:37. > :04:42.We need to invest in their success. But... Bonuses are coming down.
:04:42. > :04:49.Coming down? They are coming down. Minister, with all due respect...
:04:49. > :04:55.You are about to be rude to me. talking about coming down, �23,000,
:04:55. > :05:02.on average, bonus. �23 ,000 when so many of us - my salary is not much
:05:02. > :05:07.more than �23,000 and I don't see a a bonus, ever. We are entitle to be
:05:07. > :05:11.hysterical about bankers bonuses and to wonder when is the apology
:05:11. > :05:16.going to come? Not only are they earning bonuses and salaries that
:05:16. > :05:20.are higher than ours, but when is the apology going to be coming for
:05:20. > :05:28.mis-selling insurance? When are they going to face the fact they
:05:28. > :05:33.were bam boozeling vulnerable people. People who were elderly,
:05:33. > :05:36.people who were not financially wise and frankly, you know, I want
:05:36. > :05:39.to hear, and not only from the Conservatives because this is
:05:39. > :05:44.something that is not party political, this is an issue that
:05:44. > :05:47.started with Labour, with Tony Blair and Gordon Brown being in
:05:47. > :05:52.love with these financial stoosz and nobody -- institutions and
:05:52. > :05:58.nobody has ever said, "Apologise to the to the public you tried to make
:05:58. > :06:01.a fool of.". Paul Nuttall. Well, I just don't think these
:06:02. > :06:06.people learn, do they? It is just obscene. I mean this is a bank
:06:06. > :06:10.where the loss has doubled this year, but the bonus doubled. It
:06:10. > :06:15.looks wrong. It is about a bank with �2 million losses this year
:06:15. > :06:24.and this son the same day when public sector pay has been frozen
:06:25. > :06:27.across the country. APPLAUSE
:06:27. > :06:30.And the people whose pay is going to be frozen is your lollipop lady,
:06:30. > :06:33.your dinner lady, your street cleaner. I would like to see this
:06:34. > :06:38.�800 million bonus bonus ploughed into the economy because we own own
:06:38. > :06:41.82% of the Royal Bank of Scotland. APPLAUSE
:06:41. > :06:46.Just before I I bring Simon Schama in. Ed Vaizey, can I just quote you
:06:46. > :06:51.something that you said just a month ago. "what people are
:06:51. > :06:56.objecting to are people getting paid large bonuses when they are
:06:56. > :06:59.only in business because the taxpayer has bailed them out or
:06:59. > :07:05.supported them." It is the opposite of what you are saying. You were
:07:05. > :07:09.agreeing with Cristina Odone. have got to take a pragmatic and
:07:09. > :07:13.realistic attitude. A lot of people getting the bonuses are new
:07:13. > :07:18.recruits. We own 83% of this bank. We have to invest in its success
:07:18. > :07:22.and it is turning around. The core part of the bank did make a profit.
:07:22. > :07:29.The bonuses that they are getting are bonuses in shares so if they
:07:29. > :07:34.are going to get the money, they will get it if RBS is successful.
:07:35. > :07:39.The Prime Minister says it makes people's blood boil and he is the
:07:39. > :07:43.Prime Minister and why can't you stop it happening? We own the bank.
:07:43. > :07:48.I will keep repeating myself. The bonuses are lower. The bonuses are
:07:48. > :07:53.linked to the share price so... share price has fallen 40% in a
:07:53. > :07:56.year. The we are rewarding the new team to turn around RBS.
:07:56. > :08:01.Simon Schama. The recruitment, argument, Ed,
:08:01. > :08:05.might be fine. Is it so extraordinary to say we will give
:08:05. > :08:10.awe bonus when you have a -- you a bonus when you have a successful
:08:10. > :08:18.business here. Not when when you have doubled your losses. It
:08:18. > :08:24.reminds me of a moment in the Marx Brothers when they say, "We are a
:08:24. > :08:33.shocking band. We will charge you $10 when we perform and we will
:08:33. > :08:38.charge you you $20 not to perform! "two points, one, in a time of
:08:38. > :08:43.recession and hardship, issues of equity are not sentimental. They go
:08:43. > :08:49.right to the heart of the trust people have, not just in their
:08:49. > :08:55.politicians, but also in a sense of public institutions and RBS, as has
:08:55. > :09:02.been said, is now owned by us. But I would say also, I want the
:09:02. > :09:06.apology too. To call a moral atrocity is right, but there are
:09:06. > :09:09.structural things that Cristina alluded to. The real horror that
:09:09. > :09:15.went on for a number of years in the United States where I live as
:09:15. > :09:21.well as here, the things banks got up to in terms of reckless trading
:09:21. > :09:25.which had a dire knock on effect. The insidious connections between,
:09:25. > :09:29.they are not always insidious, between investment banking and
:09:29. > :09:31.retail banking. It is those institutional things that we have
:09:31. > :09:36.to sort out. Can you explain why the Government
:09:36. > :09:41.can't do anything about this given that it owned 80% or so by the
:09:41. > :09:44.taxpayer? About the the bonus situation? Yes.
:09:44. > :09:48.The Prime Minister tells us it is not in response to this, but he
:09:48. > :09:53.says, "We shouldn't be snobbish about business." Nobody, I think,
:09:53. > :10:00.very much in this room feels that actually to be aghast at what the
:10:00. > :10:10.bonuses are, represents a direct dagger in the throat of capitalism.
:10:10. > :10:16.
:10:16. > :10:17.Capitalism would be healthier without these acts of monstrosity.
:10:17. > :10:21.APPLAUSE We have acted on the bonuses which
:10:21. > :10:22.is why we we kept the cash bonus down to �200,000 and the rest is in
:10:22. > :10:24.shares. They will still get the money. The
:10:24. > :10:29.shares are 40% down on this time last year.
:10:29. > :10:36.They are at their lowest point. They are 28.5 pence today.
:10:36. > :10:42.It is hard to take you seriesly saying you you understand the
:10:42. > :10:46.public's sentiment when you have proceeded that by a lengthy
:10:46. > :10:50.statement. And your policy is taking money out of people's
:10:50. > :10:55.pockets and in public sector jobs. Can I say something about that? If
:10:55. > :11:00.you look at the way way teachers salaries increased from 1979, if
:11:00. > :11:04.you look at the salary of the head of Barclays, his salary has gone up
:11:04. > :11:09.500 times. You have to start saying enough is enough. This is not right.
:11:10. > :11:14.We heard from a guy from Greggs and he said it is greed at the top of
:11:14. > :11:17.big business which is anti- capitalism and we have to start
:11:17. > :11:26.saying that and we have to start saying there is a bottom line.
:11:26. > :11:27.There is something wrong about this and we need to take a new way.
:11:27. > :11:30.APPLAUSE The woman there and then I will
:11:30. > :11:33.come to you, sir, over there. I think the public and the press
:11:33. > :11:37.need to be careful about how they vilify bankers especially at RBS
:11:37. > :11:41.because essentially it is still a bank, it is competing against other
:11:41. > :11:45.British banks, it has to be come petive and it has to retain its
:11:45. > :11:49.staff and if it doesn't do those things, it will fail and then we're
:11:49. > :11:53.left out of pocket. You think they would end up with
:11:53. > :11:56.the worst bankers? If somebody can get a better deal at Barclays, they
:11:56. > :12:01.will work at Barclays. The gentleman over there.
:12:01. > :12:06.Yes, following on from that, we paid our �45 billion to buy this
:12:06. > :12:11.bank and bail it out and all I have heard from the panel so far is,
:12:11. > :12:14."Nothing has changed." In the last four or five years, there is
:12:14. > :12:19.hundreds of thousands of people who work in the City of London which is
:12:19. > :12:23.our biggest export, 25% of our income, that pay for public sector
:12:23. > :12:26.and prisons and nurses, come from the City of London, the Bank of
:12:26. > :12:30.Scotland, the Royal Bank of Scotland, I beg your pardon is one
:12:30. > :12:36.little bank and thousands of people lost their jobs and I want my money
:12:36. > :12:39.back. We all want our money back. If you lose a footballer -- if you
:12:39. > :12:43.use a football analogy. If a Scottish Scottish football club is
:12:43. > :12:47.in trouble and if we bail out Manchester United and we decided
:12:47. > :12:52.that once we got hold of it and they are not doing what they are
:12:52. > :12:57.doing, we will sack Sir Alex Ferguson and get rid of Rooney and
:12:58. > :12:59.get rid of Giggs. It is a Sunday league team and I want my money
:12:59. > :13:04.back. Are you saying that the Government
:13:04. > :13:07.is on course with doing this with RBS? Do you think they will take
:13:07. > :13:12.the measures right? Stephen Hester had a difficult job.
:13:12. > :13:16.Briefly. He sacked a lot of people. He a very difficult job. A very
:13:16. > :13:18.complicated world in which he lives and he is trying to save our �45
:13:18. > :13:23.billion. OK and the man in the white shirt
:13:23. > :13:27.there. The only reason the banks are still
:13:27. > :13:34.in business which is negative real interest rates which are there to
:13:34. > :13:38.support the housing market. If you want bankers bonuses to adjust, you
:13:38. > :13:43.want lower house prices. Given that it was Labour that
:13:43. > :13:46.bailed outlbs, why why couldn't you put a clause in the agreement not
:13:46. > :13:49.to pay bonuses until they made a profit.
:13:49. > :13:55.Given that we are the shareholders and we have a place there, we can
:13:55. > :14:01.say to the remuneration committee, no. That's why when Cameron says,
:14:01. > :14:05."We have got to have responsible capitalism." when it comes to it,
:14:05. > :14:09.he blinks. He has the power to do something about the banks we
:14:09. > :14:14.nationalised and yet he is wimping out.
:14:15. > :14:18.It is Labour Party policy not to pay any bonus to any employee of
:14:18. > :14:22.RBS. No, that wouldn't be fair. It is
:14:22. > :14:25.the way you were talking. It sounded like that was your policy.
:14:25. > :14:29.These bonuses, many of the headline bonuses are obscene and we have to
:14:29. > :14:35.stop them. We have top stop them. You have played to the gallery, but
:14:35. > :14:39.you would pay the bonuses. . No. No. No. No. That's not fair.
:14:39. > :14:44.Hester gets �1.1 million as a salary. That seems to be quite a
:14:44. > :14:48.good salary actually. Mervin King gets less than a third of that.
:14:48. > :14:54.Let's be real about this. It seems to me that you have to call a spade
:14:54. > :15:04.a spade. It is wrong for someone who has �1.1 million as a salary to
:15:04. > :15:10.get a bonus when that is public The last point there, Cristina
:15:10. > :15:12.Odone, then we have to move on. this is supposed to be about can
:15:12. > :15:16.tallism, why has Royal Bank of Scotland failed to increase lending
:15:16. > :15:20.to small businesses? That's what we thought we were putting our �45
:15:20. > :15:24.billion in for. Nothing's happened. In fact, they've, you know, it
:15:24. > :15:28.hasn't gone down but it hasn't gone up. That's another issue.
:15:28. > :15:33.Let's move on. A question now from Will Pearce, please?
:15:33. > :15:36.Is it time for the UK to lead the international community in
:15:36. > :15:41.providing military assistance for the Syrian freedom fighters?
:15:41. > :15:48.Is it time to provide military assistance for the freedom
:15:48. > :15:56.fighters? Cristina Odone? It's so hard because it's been brought home
:15:56. > :16:03.to me because somebody I knew was killed yesterday in Syria. Once
:16:03. > :16:07.that happens, you feel much more empassioned. Marie Colvin? Marie
:16:07. > :16:13.Colvin. But I would argue that there's another way of doing it
:16:13. > :16:19.which is the John McCain way. What he suggested, which seems to me a
:16:19. > :16:25.very sensible solution is, arm the freedom fighters, don't go in there,
:16:25. > :16:30.don't play another Iraq because we don't have the UN Resolution thanks
:16:30. > :16:37.to China and Russia and India as well, South Africa. They just
:16:37. > :16:42.refuse to come in on it. So I would argue, let's arm then, let's give
:16:42. > :16:46.them the weapons. One of their leaders said, if we could have
:16:46. > :16:50.better weapons, we would be able to get rid of the regime, Assad's
:16:50. > :16:54.regime within ten days. Now, I don't know whether that's true but
:16:54. > :17:03.it certainly seems to be a lot better than getting our soldiers in
:17:03. > :17:09.there. Simon Schama? Well, first thing's first. This is a horrifying
:17:09. > :17:13.catastrophe actually and I'm going to come on in just a second to what
:17:13. > :17:17.I think might be tried which isn't quite the same suggestion as
:17:17. > :17:23.Cristina's. But first of all actually, the issue should go back
:17:23. > :17:28.to the Security Council. I know it suffered the veto of Russia and
:17:28. > :17:36.China and ran into opposition as well from Brazil, from South Africa
:17:36. > :17:40.and from India... India, yes. All those people who prevented an Arab
:17:40. > :17:44.League resolution which is by no means a Draconian kind of move from
:17:44. > :17:49.happening ought to be called Ouse as accomplices to massacre. It's
:17:50. > :17:57.time actually to make a very big moral noise about something which
:17:57. > :18:01.the just -- which is just horrifying going on. I don't think
:18:01. > :18:06.arming the freedom fighters - we are getting in default mode to not
:18:06. > :18:10.replay Iraq but replay Libya all the time - if we had an
:18:11. > :18:19.international peacekeeping force in Bosnia under somewhat the same
:18:19. > :18:26.circumstances, we must find a way to have international peacekeeping
:18:26. > :18:30.to force to come between the antagonists on either side. I don't
:18:30. > :18:36.think we should take what happened at the Security Council as ruling
:18:36. > :18:41.this out, I don't see any other way. The woman there? Sorry, it just
:18:41. > :18:47.seems to me that a country's physical assets like oil and things
:18:47. > :18:52.has a huge bearing on how fast the international community actually
:18:52. > :18:57.steps in. Libya - stepped in, armed the fighters, provided air cover,
:18:57. > :19:01.straightaway. There's oil there. Kuwait, Iraq, very quickly,
:19:01. > :19:05.straight in. As soon as you've got a country where we don't have any
:19:05. > :19:09.assets to start worrying about, it's softly-softly, let's take
:19:09. > :19:16.this... Now, I'm not advocating that we should go in guns blazing,
:19:16. > :19:22.but I do think that it seems very unfair that a country's physicals a
:19:22. > :19:25.is thes -- assets are such a huge part of how fast we act. Ed Vaizey,
:19:25. > :19:29.do you want to answer that point? don't think it's a question of
:19:29. > :19:33.whether or not Syria has oil as to why there hasn't been international
:19:33. > :19:36.action. There has been a lot of international action in terms of
:19:36. > :19:39.sanctions against Syria and the friends of Syria are meeting
:19:39. > :19:44.tomorrow with William Hague, our Foreign Secretary, taking part in
:19:44. > :19:48.that meeting. I think leading that meeting in terms of British action
:19:48. > :19:54.on Syria. The difficulties we have are first of all what Simon alluded
:19:54. > :19:59.to, the UN, Russia and China vetoing a UN Security Council
:19:59. > :20:01.resolution. We had a UN Security Council resolution as far as Libya
:20:01. > :20:05.was concerned but there are other complications. The opposition in
:20:05. > :20:08.Syria is more fragmented. McCain, the former presidential
:20:08. > :20:12.candidate, was saying there are ways to get weapons to people
:20:12. > :20:16.who're fighting against this kind of oppression. He meant by that
:20:16. > :20:20.presumably, you don't need to have the UN, there are ways of getting
:20:20. > :20:24.the arms in... That was the second point I was about to make, the
:20:24. > :20:27.opposition in Syria is more fragmented, it was much clearer who
:20:27. > :20:31.the opposition was in Libya and where they were so they could be
:20:31. > :20:33.armed so it was more difficult to do that in Syria. Those are the
:20:33. > :20:38.complications but we are all disgusted by what is going on in
:20:38. > :20:43.Syria, it's appalling. The Assad regime is finished I think. I
:20:43. > :20:47.cannot see how it can survive and I can understand why people want
:20:47. > :20:52.action. Cristina said I didn't know Marie Colvin but her death was
:20:52. > :20:55.tragic and it reminds us as well I think in the few months that we've
:20:55. > :20:57.been disparaging journalism that there are many, many brave
:20:57. > :21:02.journalist who is go to extraordinary lengths to bring
:21:02. > :21:09.stories to us both here and across the world.
:21:09. > :21:14.APPLAUSE She was indeed a panellist on
:21:14. > :21:21.Question Time and very good too. You say it's difficult. Does that
:21:21. > :21:24.mean it's impossible? I don't think it's impossible and I don't want to
:21:24. > :21:26.advocate that we arm the Syrian opposition at the moment. I think
:21:26. > :21:31.that William Hague is working with the international community to do
:21:31. > :21:36.what we can. I think that the Assad regime must realise they've come to
:21:36. > :21:41.the end of the road. We must work to get Russia and China on board in
:21:41. > :21:45.terms of taking action against Syria and we must do what we can in
:21:45. > :21:50.terms of humanitarian support and sanctions against its regime. But
:21:50. > :21:55.there is no lack of action, but there are obstacles in the way.
:21:55. > :22:01.The woman at the very back? I agree with Ed, it's a very dangerous path
:22:01. > :22:05.to go down, funding foreign insurgents we know so little about
:22:05. > :22:11.and that are so fragmented. We could easily be supplying weapons
:22:11. > :22:16.to our future enemy for all we know. You Sir, yes? I agree with the lady
:22:16. > :22:20.in front. The reluctance for us to get involved in the war or this
:22:20. > :22:23.uprising is predominantly revolving around oil, that's come from the
:22:23. > :22:26.words of the Syrian freedom fighters themselves. Do you think
:22:26. > :22:29.if there was oil there... I think the swing would change and there
:22:29. > :22:33.are ways you can lend assistance with precision strikes and perhaps
:22:33. > :22:39.covert operations. We have to lend some assistance. Paul Nuttall, do
:22:39. > :22:43.you agree with that? I think we should offer our condolences to the
:22:43. > :22:45.family of Marie Colvin first. That's the first thing we should
:22:45. > :22:49.say. APPLAUSE
:22:49. > :22:54.I think dealing with Syria will be very difficult for two reasons.
:22:54. > :22:59.Firstly, we have the obstacle of Russia and China and the UN
:22:59. > :23:04.Security Council, but let's not forget, Assad has a standing
:23:04. > :23:09.military of 250,000 highly trained soldiers. We can't go round being
:23:10. > :23:15.the world's policemen all the time, we've got defence cuts at the
:23:15. > :23:20.moment. We could have a problem in the Falklands which is coming up
:23:20. > :23:23.which I would argue for British interest is more important.
:23:23. > :23:28.APPLAUSE However, there is a serious problem
:23:28. > :23:32.out there. But I think we'd better be careful about what comes next
:23:32. > :23:37.because look, is Libya necessarily a better place now than it was
:23:37. > :23:42.under Gaddafi? We have human rights abuses across-the-board. Is Iraq
:23:42. > :23:47.necessarily a safer place? Is Egypt with the Christian community being
:23:47. > :23:52.persecuted? We should think very hard before embarking on any action.
:23:52. > :23:58.I for one don't want to see one drop of British soldiers' blood
:23:58. > :24:04.spilt in Syria. APPLAUSE
:24:04. > :24:05.I agree with that and I would like to ask Emily Thornberry, what role
:24:05. > :24:11.can the International Criminal Court play in this situation
:24:11. > :24:16.because we have not heard much from them in the past few weeks? Emily
:24:16. > :24:20.Thornberry? I think that Assad is a weak leader. I think he talks a
:24:20. > :24:25.good talk, he talks about liberal values, he talks about bringing
:24:25. > :24:29.democracy to Syria. He's let Syria down and his father was responsible
:24:29. > :24:33.for the murder of 20,000 people. He looks like he's going to be
:24:33. > :24:36.responsible for the same thing. He must go, he must go and it seems to
:24:36. > :24:41.me that we have to have a ceasefire, we have to have humanitarian aid
:24:41. > :24:45.going in and then we need talks. When we talk about arming the
:24:45. > :24:50.rebellion, the fact is, we don't even know who rebellion is, you
:24:50. > :24:54.know, we don't know who the different factions are. We have
:24:54. > :25:00.ancient Christian religions there, we have Sunnis, Shias, I mean, I've
:25:00. > :25:03.been to Syria and it's the most unique society and finely balanced.
:25:03. > :25:07.If you look at the uprising, actually not everyone is in an
:25:07. > :25:11.uprising because they're scared about what the alternative may be.
:25:11. > :25:14.So please, there are even rumours that the bombings were the
:25:14. > :25:18.responsibility of Al-Qaeda. You know, they have enough weapons,
:25:18. > :25:22.that's not the point. What we need to do is not simply think we can
:25:22. > :25:26.get rid of Assad and everything will be fine, everything will not
:25:26. > :25:29.be fine, we have to build enough... Who has enough weapons? The
:25:29. > :25:33.opposition? Yes and such people as we hear from, they say it's not a
:25:33. > :25:39.matter of having enough weapons and indeed there is not a call from the
:25:39. > :25:45.opposition to say please West come in and bomb. First of all Yes there
:25:45. > :25:51.is. They are dangerous as Goliath, they've said we need more weapons.
:25:51. > :25:53.Depends who you are listening to. There are many different voices and
:25:53. > :25:57.you can hear Syrians on TV, representatives of the Syrian
:25:57. > :26:01.community saying different things. They are all against Assad? Yes,
:26:01. > :26:05.but then the question is, you say all right so they are all against
:26:05. > :26:10.Assad so get rid of him and then what. We can't simply say there are
:26:10. > :26:13.people being murdered and it's wrong, let's get rid of Assad and
:26:13. > :26:18.think everything will be OK because it won't. I'm not convinced, Emily.
:26:18. > :26:22.I think that you are right, there's more than one group that is
:26:22. > :26:25.standing up to Assad, but anybody but Assad should get our help if we
:26:25. > :26:30.don't want to spill British or European blood or whatever, OK,
:26:30. > :26:35.let's go in and give them arms. They have several times, just as
:26:35. > :26:38.they did in Libya, asked us to go in. Nobody in Iraq did it. Look at
:26:38. > :26:41.what happened in Mogadishu where everyone had so many arms, you
:26:41. > :26:45.could go to a market and find a basket of rice and for the same
:26:45. > :26:50.price you could find a basket of bullets, you know. You leave these
:26:50. > :26:53.arms and then what happens, as the decades go on, you undermine a
:26:53. > :27:00.society, allow violence to get in and arm tonk the teeth then what do
:27:00. > :27:04.you do, who is ever going to hand the weapons back -- armed to the
:27:04. > :27:10.teeth. Do you want the last word? It's not undermining, it's
:27:10. > :27:14.supporting and we know who is evil there. Do we know who is evil and
:27:14. > :27:18.who is not. This is the problem, we've made this mistake before in
:27:18. > :27:21.Libya. We have armed the rebels and they overthrew Gaddafi. There are
:27:21. > :27:26.140 tribes in Libya with scores to settle armed to the teeth. There
:27:26. > :27:32.are human rights abuses across-the- board and if we are not careful, we
:27:32. > :27:40.could possibly end up with Islamic fundamentalist states 250 miles off
:27:40. > :27:46.the coast of Sicily. Simon Schama? It's not all a matter of they are
:27:46. > :27:52.all as bad as each other, Paul. It's not that complicated. Dedon't
:27:52. > :27:58.know who these people are. We do know who the Free Syrian Army are.
:27:58. > :28:02.I don't think it's in anyone's interests, least of all the Syrian
:28:02. > :28:09.people, I know it's shocking to presume to speak to them, but we
:28:09. > :28:16.know that the Army in Homs is aiming tank and mortar and rocket
:28:16. > :28:22.fire at civilian centres. That is a not complicated utter horror, so
:28:22. > :28:26.it's incumbent on the international community to prevent women and
:28:26. > :28:32.hospitals and children and schools being massacred in cold blood.
:28:32. > :28:34.I pick you up on one point... APPLAUSE
:28:34. > :28:39.Emily Thornberry made the point these are all different groups and
:28:39. > :28:45.we don't know who they are and you said we do know who the Free Syrian
:28:45. > :28:50.Army is. In the sense that you would be prepared to arm them?
:28:50. > :28:56.I'm not... What do you mean by you know who they are? Well, they are
:28:56. > :29:01.Sunni, it's a Sunni uprising, the fact that Al-Qaeda is Sunni. It's
:29:01. > :29:06.certainly not Alawite or Shia. what are the Christians going to
:29:06. > :29:10.make of that? That's why I'm not proposing to intensify a Civil War.
:29:10. > :29:14.Let's move on. The man up there in the second row from the back and
:29:14. > :29:19.then we'll take another question. The West has a long tradition of
:29:19. > :29:23.interventions like this all over the world, but especially in that
:29:23. > :29:27.region and our recent history's been scarred by a self-interested
:29:27. > :29:31.intervention in Iraq with no exit strategy. I'm pleased we seem to be
:29:31. > :29:39.learning the lesson from that and I would be very worried about a move
:29:39. > :29:45.to intervene just for the sake of it, particularly because, the
:29:45. > :29:49.feeling that if we intervened in a country that had oil, that is more
:29:49. > :29:59.about making us feel better about ourselves. If you want to join in
:29:59. > :30:08.
:30:08. > :30:12.the debate, our Twitter ID is on We won't be able to say Ceefax
:30:12. > :30:20.anywhere. Where I live, you can't get television if you don't have
:30:20. > :30:25.analogue, you can't get digital. really? That's not for now.
:30:25. > :30:31.We will be a few minutes! I mustn't say that thing, I will
:30:31. > :30:36.get the sack. I would like to know what you think,
:30:36. > :30:42.do unpaid work placements for unemployed 16 to 24-year-olds help
:30:42. > :30:45.them into the workplace or are they a modern form of slavery.
:30:45. > :30:49.These are the people who have been working for Tesco's and other
:30:49. > :30:54.companies on no pay for eight weeks and they get their benefits. Is it
:30:54. > :31:01.slavery or what is it. Paul Nuttall. Well, the first I would like to say
:31:01. > :31:06.about this is actually it is voluntary. So it is not slavery and
:31:06. > :31:08.hundreds of kids as a result of this have got jobs. 22% youth
:31:08. > :31:12.unemployment in this country. We are bringing up a generation of
:31:12. > :31:16.kids who actually don't know what it means to go out to work and
:31:16. > :31:19.probably stay at home and play on their Xbox all day. It is a
:31:19. > :31:28.fantastic opportunity. I used to work with youth unemployment and I
:31:28. > :31:35.think it is an opportunity for them to to punctual, to be reliable and
:31:35. > :31:39.go on into full-time employment. We have got to get our own workforce
:31:39. > :31:49.working working again. The hotel I'm staying in London at the moment,
:31:49. > :31:51.
:31:51. > :31:55.the staff, one was Congolese and one was Estonian. We need to get
:31:55. > :32:02.our young people into work and this is a step in that direction.
:32:02. > :32:06.Ed Vaizey is this volume voluntary? There seems some doubt about it
:32:06. > :32:10.with different ministers saying different things? Give us the
:32:10. > :32:14.quotes. I will square the circle. I think it is voluntary.
:32:14. > :32:17.Iain Duncan Smith writing in The Daily Mail said we can require
:32:17. > :32:20.claimants to undertake a short period of compulsory work if we
:32:20. > :32:25.believe they are not pursuing employment. Is that what this
:32:25. > :32:31.scheme is or not? That's not a scheme I heard of. Iain Duncan
:32:31. > :32:37.Smith. It is a voluntary scheme. If you are on Jobseeker's Allowance,
:32:38. > :32:41.you can sit down with your adviser and be offered a period of work
:32:41. > :32:46.experience where you will be paid Jobseeker's Allowance plus your
:32:46. > :32:49.expenses and that can be for up to eight weeks and that's voluntary
:32:50. > :32:53.and you can say no. What's the Community Action
:32:53. > :32:57.Programme? The second thing about that programme which has been put
:32:57. > :33:01.about in the press which after a week you decide it is not for you,
:33:01. > :33:06.and you leave, you will have your Jobseeker's Allowance docked and
:33:06. > :33:09.that is seen as a bad thing, but again, I think it is important to
:33:09. > :33:13.get across the fact that that docking is discretionary. So what
:33:13. > :33:17.will happen is you will sit down with your adviser and if it is felt
:33:17. > :33:20.that you effectively, the the employer who spent a lot of time
:33:20. > :33:23.and investment getting ready to have you on the scheme that you
:33:23. > :33:26.somehow walked off the job without a care in the world then the
:33:26. > :33:31.adviser has the potential to sanction you for that.
:33:31. > :33:34.You are saying this is is voluntary, all this? Yes.
:33:34. > :33:40.What's the Community Action Programme? I don't know.
:33:40. > :33:45.You don't know? I have come to talk about this voluntary programme.
:33:45. > :33:49.I will sweet later about what that I can't believe that you don't know
:33:49. > :33:53.what it is. These are the things at the heart of the debate? Absolutely,
:33:53. > :33:56.it is important that he get people on unemployment benefit back to
:33:56. > :33:59.work and that's why we need to give them work experience and that's why
:33:59. > :34:09.I support this programme. Emily Thornberry.
:34:09. > :34:12.
:34:13. > :34:13.It is funny to see Ed Vaizey doing his Boris Johnson impersonation!
:34:13. > :34:15.LAUGHTER APPLAUSE
:34:15. > :34:18.Work experience should be about getting a job. It should be the
:34:18. > :34:21.pathway to getting a job. Either you do work experience with an
:34:21. > :34:24.employer who is impressed with you and offers you a job or you have
:34:25. > :34:28.something on your CV and you have the experience to help you get a
:34:28. > :34:32.job and the the problem with work experience at the moment is there
:34:32. > :34:35.aren't jobs. There aren't any jobs and we have a Government that has
:34:35. > :34:41.no policy when it comes to building jobs and going for growth. They
:34:41. > :34:46.have no policy in relation to it. They have got this policy which Val
:34:46. > :34:50.Chris raises as a question. If you have ten Jobseekers and one job, no
:34:50. > :34:54.matter how well motivated they are and no matter how much they want
:34:54. > :35:00.that job, there is one job. Is it a form of slavery which is
:35:00. > :35:03.the question or not? I think if you have large successful companies,
:35:03. > :35:07.having a rolling programme of youngsters who they don't need to
:35:07. > :35:12.pay, but the State pays for them instead on two monthly bursts then
:35:12. > :35:15.it begins not to look like work experience, it begins to look like
:35:15. > :35:18.something distasteful. And look like or is? I think that
:35:19. > :35:22.I'm pleased to see that employers such as Tesco's have changed their
:35:22. > :35:26.policy as a result and are prepared to pay pay these youngsters and
:35:26. > :35:29.look at them as to whether or not they should get a job at the end of
:35:29. > :35:34.it because frankly if a company has hundreds of places for people who
:35:34. > :35:37.might do two months unpaid work, the question has to arise, is there
:35:37. > :35:41.work in that company or they taking advantage of the situation? You
:35:41. > :35:45.know what, this comes down to, is whether or not people are prepared
:35:46. > :35:48.to trust this particular Government when they introduce the initiatives.
:35:48. > :35:53.This Government is the one that was against a minimum wage. This
:35:53. > :35:59.Government is the one that wants to take away workers rights and wants
:35:59. > :36:04.it to be easer to sack people and in the end, do you trust it or not?
:36:04. > :36:08.The woman in lilac. The ditch thing used to be to get into a company.
:36:08. > :36:13.Once you got your foot in the door, you worked your way up and it might
:36:13. > :36:16.have been a greasy pole, but somehow you managed to do that and
:36:16. > :36:19.anything that's going to help young people to get that first step which
:36:19. > :36:26.is the difficult bit when they don't already have any experience,
:36:26. > :36:32.the situation may not be ideal, but at least it could be a start start
:36:32. > :36:36.into getting into the workplace. APPLAUSE
:36:36. > :36:41.Absolutely. Employers keep saying, "We'll take just about anybody. We
:36:41. > :36:45.will look at anybody. We will interview anybody. Except for
:36:45. > :36:50.somebody who has no experience on their CV." And what was this scheme,
:36:50. > :36:54.it was tried and tested in the States, it works elsewhere, was
:36:54. > :37:00.brilliant. Why was it brilliant? It got young people out into the
:37:00. > :37:04.workplace, not in a charity, in a nice, cosy thing. No, in big
:37:04. > :37:07.companies so if that's what they want, if what they want is a taste
:37:07. > :37:11.of professional life, they were getting it. This was the real thing.
:37:11. > :37:16.This was Tesco. This was Boots, this was Asda and what was
:37:16. > :37:23.brilliant was, they were learning habits. They were learning skills.
:37:23. > :37:26.Those skills that the middle-class people who go on fair work
:37:26. > :37:31.campaigns are able to teach their children at meal times. They can
:37:31. > :37:35.teach their children not to wear hoodies or chew gum during an
:37:36. > :37:41.interview. These skills are really, really important for young people
:37:41. > :37:45.to learn and these soft skills are what they could have picked up on
:37:45. > :37:53.the floor, on the shop floor at Asda or Tesco's.
:37:53. > :37:57.Why has Sainsbury's pulled out? Why have Matalan pulled out? Because.
:37:57. > :38:03.Because of the small lobby that got one creature to say her Human
:38:03. > :38:06.Rights were infridged because for three weeks she was working at her
:38:06. > :38:10.local Poundland for nothing. For nothing, but half of the 40,000
:38:10. > :38:12.young people who have gone on the scheme have been hired by the
:38:12. > :38:22.places where they were working. That's a chance. That's at least a
:38:22. > :38:23.
:38:23. > :38:26.chance to get a job. APPLAUSE
:38:26. > :38:30.The gentleman on the end said there were... Paul Nuttall. Thank you
:38:31. > :38:35.very much. Said there were four non UK people in the hotel where you
:38:35. > :38:39.were saying. Why do you think there were no English people in those
:38:39. > :38:44.positions? In my experience they work harder. They work longer hours.
:38:44. > :38:47.They want to be there and they are more grateful for it and across my
:38:47. > :38:50.business interests, I employ over 200 people.
:38:50. > :38:54.You are right. This is why this scheme is important. We seem to
:38:54. > :38:59.have lost this work ethic this this this country and this is an
:38:59. > :39:03.opportunity to instil the work ethic. It boils down to this in the
:39:04. > :39:08.the end - could we really want our youngsters out learning skills,
:39:08. > :39:11.being punctual, going into work, becoming responsible or do we want
:39:11. > :39:16.them sitting at home doing nothing? I think it is clear what the answer
:39:16. > :39:20.is and that's why businesses, right across this country, are taking on
:39:20. > :39:23.Eastern Europeans and not our own and that has to to stop and this
:39:23. > :39:27.scheme is a step in the right direction.
:39:27. > :39:35.The reverse is true to answer this lady's question.
:39:36. > :39:40.Cristina Odone. Thank you so much. I struggle. I have taken on four
:39:40. > :39:44.graduates without any experience at all... You are very unusual.
:39:44. > :39:49.They have gone into middle management and they are doing a
:39:49. > :39:52.fabulous job. Within twelve weeks they are doing classic middle
:39:53. > :39:56.management that I would probably pay somebody twice as much to do.
:39:56. > :40:02.The woman in the centre and then Simon Schama.
:40:02. > :40:06.The original question uses the phrase "slavery" it is worth
:40:06. > :40:09.remembering whether we like it or not, it is easy for the young
:40:09. > :40:14.people who I teach in Tunbridge Wells who will have at least one if
:40:14. > :40:19.not two parents in work to gain work experience which they can have
:40:19. > :40:24.on their CV to get a job. The sort of young people I taught on the
:40:24. > :40:29.Maidstone council estates had no concept of work and a scheme like
:40:29. > :40:34.this gives them that valuable work experience so we get the people
:40:34. > :40:38.from advantaged backgrounds off the street corners and into some form
:40:38. > :40:41.of workplace. It may not be a workplace they love like Poundland.
:40:41. > :40:45.What do you make of the companies that have withdrawn from the scheme
:40:45. > :40:51.under pressure then? It is sad they have withdrawn under media pressure
:40:51. > :40:55.and under public response to as Cristina said, this one articulate
:40:55. > :40:59.young lady who managed to get a lot of media coverage about her case.
:40:59. > :41:05.Simon Schama. I am singing from the same sheet
:41:05. > :41:11.and I want to agree with the lady in the handsome deep rose coloured
:41:11. > :41:14.suit over there! We can sound a bit Victorian about actually instilling
:41:14. > :41:19.the work ethic, nothing to apologise for that really, but all
:41:19. > :41:24.I really want to add is we're facing right across the developed
:41:24. > :41:29.world and probably beyond the developed world, this is true of
:41:29. > :41:33.the United States, a lost generation at its most tragically
:41:33. > :41:37.awful in Greece for example, where they have a depression rather than
:41:37. > :41:44.a recession and it is absolutely, that's why, I think, we're singing
:41:44. > :41:47.from the same sheet. It is so - nothing is more demoralalising
:41:47. > :41:55.really than feeling you have no part to play in the larger working
:41:55. > :42:00.society. So A, it is to be welcomed. I think we are singing from the
:42:00. > :42:04.same hymn sheet, but it is worth picking up on the point that Emily
:42:04. > :42:08.made earlier. I don't think, we shouldn't be sceptical about
:42:08. > :42:12.business. We shouldn't automatically say because business
:42:12. > :42:14.want to participate that they are seeking to exploit people. We
:42:14. > :42:18.should celebrate the fact that business is prepared to come to the
:42:18. > :42:24.table and help with this work experience scheme and support them
:42:24. > :42:29.in doing so rather than vilify them and accuse them of engaging in
:42:29. > :42:34.modern day slavery. We would like this scheme to be
:42:34. > :42:39.rolled out to small business as well. Let's Get our young people in
:42:39. > :42:44.work. The man in the white shirt.
:42:44. > :42:47.Surely the ultimate test this is success. Figures today said it is
:42:47. > :42:50.50% successful. That's got to be a good scheme.
:42:50. > :42:54.You mentioned Greece. George Harris has a question on Greece and we
:42:54. > :42:58.will fit in a question after that as well. George Harris, please.
:42:58. > :43:04.Isn't bailing out Greece a measure to delay the inevitable?
:43:04. > :43:08.inevitable being? In your view? Well, that it is
:43:08. > :43:12.going to go crashing down. They won be able to afford -- won't be able
:43:12. > :43:17.to afford to repay their debts. And pull out of the euro and all
:43:17. > :43:21.that? Exactly. Simon Schama. Well, we, you know,
:43:21. > :43:26.you are speaking on behalf of the eurozone, whether the eurozone
:43:26. > :43:31.should do what has to be done. I think the first thing that has to
:43:31. > :43:35.be said really is, not just that Greece is in a deprrks, but --
:43:35. > :43:40.depression, but a recession. We are seeing for the first time in a long
:43:40. > :43:46.time, the complete unravelling of the social contract in a country.
:43:46. > :43:50.Whoever was responsible really for cooking the books in such a way as
:43:50. > :43:56.to provoke the wrath of Angela Merkel and the northern Europeans
:43:56. > :44:03.and the books were indeed, cooked, helped I may say and I'm not
:44:03. > :44:10.attacking heaven for bid a bank, helped by Gold by Goldman Sachs, it
:44:10. > :44:17.was not the people on the receiving end of this horrific punishment
:44:17. > :44:23.with enormous unemployment and the real problem, it seems to me, is
:44:23. > :44:30.that the ferocious medicine being required to the Greeks is exactly
:44:30. > :44:36.this degree of punishing austerity, is the least likely policy to
:44:36. > :44:39.restore, not just Greece to economic growth, but repair the
:44:39. > :44:43.social fabrics, so you do have a working society.
:44:43. > :44:51.So your suggestion would be what? I'm saying only half the problem is
:44:51. > :44:55.being addressed. It is really like Mr Potter in It's A Wonderful Life,
:44:55. > :45:02.you are failing people who are not responsible for this, for the cost
:45:02. > :45:08.of the bail out, but what really needs, is some sort of European
:45:08. > :45:11.equivalent to the Marshal Plan, I am not saying throw money and
:45:11. > :45:16.charity at the problem, but there has to be something other than cut,
:45:16. > :45:23.cut, cut, cut if this society isn't going to disintegrate completely
:45:23. > :45:33.and that will lead to revolution or dictatorship. My historians
:45:33. > :45:35.
:45:35. > :45:39.nostrils can smell that kind of Paul Nuttall, you are probably not
:45:39. > :45:42.a great fan of the eurozone, but what is your view about bailing out
:45:42. > :45:47.of Greece? I think it's just a sticking plaster and I predict
:45:47. > :45:51.we'll be back here again in six months' time. Greece will fully
:45:51. > :45:55.default. It's inevitable. The real problem here is there's a real
:45:55. > :45:59.human element to it. What is going on in Greece is an absolute
:45:59. > :46:05.disaster. We've got 50% youth unemployment, 25% increases in
:46:05. > :46:09.homelessness, suicides are going through the roof. 22% cut in the
:46:09. > :46:12.minimum wage. The people are out on the streets, the people are angry,
:46:12. > :46:16.you've had a democratically elected Prime Minister removed by the
:46:16. > :46:21.European Commission and they've put a eurocrat, unelected eurocrat, in
:46:21. > :46:24.his place. It's not on. The people are out. Imagine in this country,
:46:24. > :46:28.for example, in our democratly elected Prime Minister was removed
:46:28. > :46:32.and heaven forbid, we were given Peter Mandelson or even Neil
:46:32. > :46:37.Kinnock, you would be out on the street and unfortunately at the
:46:37. > :46:40.moment in Greece, I fear within I say this, but I genuinely feel that
:46:40. > :46:44.the cradle of civilisation Greece is heading towards revolution. What
:46:44. > :46:50.Greece needs to do is to come out of the eurozone all together, leave
:46:50. > :46:54.the euro, go back on to the drachma, devalue, set her own exchange rates
:46:54. > :46:57.and get her exports going, because if we were good Europeans, that's
:46:57. > :47:02.what we'd want and that's what we'd APPLAUSE
:47:02. > :47:06.The woman in the fourth row there? Why does it have to get to this
:47:06. > :47:10.stage when they are almost at rock bottom before we suddenly put our
:47:10. > :47:14.hands in the air and say, step in, we need to be doing something. It's
:47:14. > :47:18.the same with anything in this life, we step in when it's at breaking
:47:18. > :47:24.point. Why can't we have things in place whereby we can see the layers
:47:24. > :47:29.slowly being eroded so we can step in before we have this catastrophic
:47:29. > :47:32.event? Because it was never going to work anyway, it was impossible.
:47:32. > :47:37.Ed Vaizey? I hope the bail out works and so does everyone else. We
:47:37. > :47:41.all have an interest in our own economy and the eurozone succeeding
:47:41. > :47:44.and we want Greece to get back on to the road to recovery. We have
:47:44. > :47:48.been in the past with Ireland looking over the precipice and
:47:48. > :47:53.Ireland I think seems to be coming back, so I do hope that it works.
:47:53. > :47:57.You can't predict the future but this bail out's been long
:47:57. > :48:02.negotiated. I wouldn't agree with the sentiments that Greece is on
:48:02. > :48:06.the point of rev lues, but Simon has said what he has to say --
:48:06. > :48:08.revolution. I don't think we want to ratchet it up too much but I
:48:08. > :48:12.understand the frustration, particularly the people in Greece
:48:12. > :48:16.must feel. That's why I was delighted that John Major kept us
:48:16. > :48:20.out of the euro and that is why I was delighted we remained out of
:48:20. > :48:25.the euro in the last Government and will continue to remain out of it
:48:25. > :48:28.fundamentally, the euro was sold as an economic project to increase
:48:28. > :48:34.free trade in Europe which is something I'm very much in favour
:48:34. > :48:37.of, increasing free trade in Europe. The reason we always opposed it in
:48:37. > :48:40.the Conservative Party was because it was always a political project
:48:40. > :48:43.and if you have a currency union you give up your sovereignty which
:48:43. > :48:47.is what we are seeing now. I'm delighted we are not in the euro
:48:47. > :48:50.but I absolutely wish this bail out the best of luck and I think it
:48:50. > :48:56.will and hope it will work because it's in all of our interests for
:48:56. > :49:00.the euro to survive and for the European economys to recover.
:49:00. > :49:05.APPLAUSE You, Sir? Just to come back on some
:49:05. > :49:10.of the points made. We they knead to go back to basics, come out of
:49:10. > :49:14.euro and there needs to be a mentality change from start to
:49:14. > :49:17.finish, just everyone... You could almost wish if everyone in the
:49:17. > :49:21.whole country could change their mentality a bit and just change the
:49:21. > :49:25.ethics, whether they need to change their work ethic a little bit but
:49:25. > :49:29.just to start a game and make things better. And you, Sir? As I
:49:29. > :49:34.understand it, one of the conditions for the bail out is that
:49:34. > :49:39.they have to lose 150,000 public sector workers within three years.
:49:39. > :49:43.That's equivalent to saying goodbye to 80,000 in this country. Imagine
:49:43. > :49:53.what that would do. They have no way out, they are not allowed to
:49:53. > :49:58.borrow from anywhere else, you've got a puppet Prime Minister in
:49:58. > :50:02.there, Greece was given a golden hello to get into the European
:50:02. > :50:06.Union when they were assessed and they should be given a golden
:50:06. > :50:10.goodbye and eased out to the pain so that they can leave the European
:50:10. > :50:20.Union. This is more about saving the European Union, not saving
:50:20. > :50:23.Greece. I think you are speaking a lot of
:50:23. > :50:26.good sense. I mean, there's very little I disagree with what you
:50:26. > :50:30.have just said. The reason we stayed out of the euro when Labour
:50:30. > :50:34.was in charge is because do you remember the convergence criteria,
:50:34. > :50:39.that wasn't just Gordon saying no, it was that our economy's not like
:50:39. > :50:43.Greece or Spain, Italy, no we were not similar enough but if you sign
:50:43. > :50:47.up to the euro, then it surely means that we are all in it
:50:47. > :50:50.together and we'll stand together and having signed up to the euro,
:50:50. > :50:55.it's incumbent I think upon countries such as Germany to make
:50:55. > :50:58.sure that if they are serious about it, then they have to work. The
:50:59. > :51:03.difficulty is, it seems to me, is that again, just like our
:51:03. > :51:06.Government, the Germans and French have again had this idea that
:51:06. > :51:10.austerity is everything and yet it's not everything. You can't just
:51:10. > :51:13.keep cutting back on money and expect the economy to grow. It
:51:13. > :51:22.seems to me that the austerity programme which they are enforcing
:51:22. > :51:28.on the Greeks will not work. I fear. It shrank 7% last year. But going
:51:28. > :51:34.back to Simon's historian nostrils, I think you are right because I
:51:34. > :51:38.think the humiliation that the Greeks are being asked to put up
:51:38. > :51:41.with by the European Union is extraordinary. It wasn't just
:51:41. > :51:48.France and Germany, but there was the Dutch minister who said, what
:51:48. > :51:54.we'd like to do is because we don't trust you to carry out your
:51:54. > :52:01.financial and economic mess, we are going to impose somebody from the
:52:01. > :52:08.EU in your democracy and he's going to be there in a kind of permanent
:52:08. > :52:11.over senior position. That is extraordinary. That in a and a
:52:11. > :52:16.puppet Prime Minister and unemployment and homeless, you
:52:16. > :52:21.think what more humiliation can one country suffer? Let's not forget,
:52:21. > :52:24.it's not just Greece. They've done the same in Italy, replaced the
:52:24. > :52:29.democratically elected leader with another eurocrat. Anybody who
:52:29. > :52:33.replaced Berlusconi is a good one. Exactly.
:52:33. > :52:41.APPLAUSE. It's horses for courses and there's a perception that a
:52:41. > :52:45.good job is being done in Italy. He's unelected. It doesn't matter.
:52:45. > :52:49.Berlusconi was a trauma for us, OK. I speak as a half Italian, he was
:52:49. > :52:56.the worst thing we've ever had. Please, you know...
:52:56. > :53:01.Let's not go into it too much. It will be next, Italy, on the line.
:53:01. > :53:05.God forbid. The last question from Kimberley Carey, please? In light
:53:05. > :53:09.of the recent arrests of journalists at the Sun, is it a
:53:09. > :53:14.good idea to launch the Sun on Sunday?
:53:14. > :53:19.Ed Vaizey, you are in charge of all this sort of thing, is it a good
:53:19. > :53:22.idea? Well, I think... More Murdoch I think Rupert Murdoch is perfectly
:53:22. > :53:26.entitled to launch the Sun on Sunday and it's worth remembering
:53:26. > :53:30.that despite the traumas that those journalists have put us through and
:53:30. > :53:34.they are being arrested, that millions of people still buy The
:53:34. > :53:37.Sun every day and it's very interesting that after the closure
:53:37. > :53:42.of the News of the World, I think about half the News of the World's
:53:42. > :53:47.readers have stopped buying a Sunday newspaper at all. So I want
:53:47. > :53:50.to see a free and successful press in this country. I hope the Leveson
:53:50. > :53:54.Inquiry will get to the bottom of everything that's happened in the
:53:54. > :53:57.past and I hope it's very much of the past. I think if Rupert Murdoch
:53:58. > :54:02.wants to launch the Sun on Sunday and if people want to buy it then
:54:02. > :54:07.it will be a success and if people don't want to buy it, then it won't
:54:07. > :54:12.be. Is Leveson a danger like Michael Gove seems to think, he
:54:12. > :54:19.talks about freedom of expression emanating around that? He was
:54:19. > :54:22.saying he doesn't want Leveson to instil a freedom of press. I think
:54:22. > :54:25.the Leveson Inquiry is a huge opportunity for the press. I think
:54:25. > :54:28.it provides a breathing space, a buffer between politicians and the
:54:28. > :54:33.press and it gives the press an opportunity to put forward
:54:33. > :54:38.proposals to put its own house in order to come up with a Morrow bust
:54:38. > :54:42.regime for I hope self-regulation of the press. Paul Nuttall, what do
:54:42. > :54:46.you think of the Sun on Sunday being launched? I'll just say good
:54:46. > :54:49.luck to him in that sense because frankly there are a million less
:54:49. > :54:52.people buying a newspaper on a Sunday and I think it's important
:54:52. > :54:56.that people keep up-to-date with current affairs and buy newspapers.
:54:56. > :55:00.However, as a Liverpudlian and a survivor of the Hillsborough
:55:00. > :55:03.disaster, I don't buy the Sun six days a week and I certainly won't
:55:03. > :55:09.be buying the Sun on the seventh day of the week either.
:55:09. > :55:13.APPLAUSE Do you know, everybody, there are
:55:13. > :55:21.very few things in this world I don't give a toss about and this is
:55:21. > :55:27.one of them. Good, thank you. Cristina Odone?
:55:27. > :55:32.APPLAUSE Simon Schama, shame on you! You
:55:32. > :55:38.should care because the more newspapers we have of all qualities,
:55:38. > :55:44.the better. Information is the oxygen of democracy and I think a
:55:44. > :55:50.historian said that! And we want it. One of the things, you know, when I
:55:50. > :55:55.think Rupert Murdoch, my knee-jerk reaction is, hacking scandals,
:55:55. > :55:59.Cherie Blair now, lot of celebrities complaining, what what
:55:59. > :56:03.what, but News Corp is also the umbrella group for some very
:56:03. > :56:10.impressive journalism -- blah blah blah. We are talking about Marie
:56:10. > :56:16.Colvin, she's one of them. And what it reminds us of is what good
:56:16. > :56:19.journalists can do, which is expose MPs' expenses as The Telegraph did,
:56:19. > :56:25.which is expose the human rights abuses that are happening in Syria
:56:25. > :56:29.eeven if it costs some of our best journalists' lives which is expose
:56:29. > :56:35.corruption at every level from Westminster to wag mama and I think
:56:35. > :56:41.that that is one of the... It's not about journalists but the Sun and
:56:41. > :56:45.the Murdoch press. The man with spectacles on? I think Simon's
:56:45. > :56:50.pretty much put that subject to bed actually with his answer. Are you
:56:50. > :56:55.going to be helpful or not? I was going to say it wasn't the answer
:56:55. > :57:01.to a new Sunday paper and the issues that arose from the Leveson
:57:01. > :57:04.Inquiry actually to regulate the sector a little better, especially
:57:04. > :57:08.now with all the financial regulations that have been imposed.
:57:08. > :57:12.Do you think he shouldn't be allowed to publish a newspaper at
:57:12. > :57:15.all... I'm not saying that, things like making sure that instances
:57:15. > :57:18.like phone tapping don't occur again. That's a criminal offence so
:57:18. > :57:23.presumably you can stop that happening? But if you have
:57:23. > :57:28.regulation in the sector, those sort of things can be policed a
:57:28. > :57:32.little better. Very briefly you Sir? When does the
:57:32. > :57:36.information turn into propaganda? Murdoch's got such a grab hold on
:57:36. > :57:40.British print at the moment and adding another Sunday paper is just
:57:40. > :57:44.expanding his grip on information that's being released. A 30 second
:57:44. > :57:49.answer Emily? The problem with regular lace is who is going to be
:57:49. > :57:52.the regulator and who will regulate the regulators and presumably you
:57:52. > :57:56.don't want the politicians to regulate the regulators, it would
:57:56. > :58:00.be a bad idea. The next thing is this, it's audacious and arrogant
:58:00. > :58:05.to launch a paper against the background of what's happened, but
:58:05. > :58:08.it's Rupert Murdoch. APPLAUSE
:58:08. > :58:13.We have to stop there because our time's up. Sorry, I would like to
:58:13. > :58:18.bring you in, but I can't. Next week, we are in Dewsbury, we are
:58:18. > :58:28.going to have the professional footballer Clark Carlisle, we are
:58:28. > :58:28.
:58:28. > :58:31.having another historian on next week, guess who that would be?
:58:32. > :58:37.David Starkey. The week of that we are in Guildford. If you want to
:58:37. > :58:46.come to either of those programmes, you can go to the website. You can