0:00:00 > 0:00:10Tonight we are in Romford, once an Essex market town, now part of
0:00:10 > 0:00:11
0:00:11 > 0:00:14greater London. Welcome to Question On our panel here, the employment
0:00:14 > 0:00:19Minister Chris Grayling, shadow health Minister Diane Abbott, the
0:00:19 > 0:00:28deputy leader of the Liberal Democrats, Simon Hughes, the leader
0:00:28 > 0:00:38of the UK Independence Party, Nigel Farage and The Guardian columnist,
0:00:38 > 0:00:42
0:00:42 > 0:00:47Polly Toynbee. Thank you very much. Straight to
0:00:47 > 0:00:50the heart of the matter with Janata Ali, please. How can we have
0:00:50 > 0:01:00confidence in the Government's economic policy when we are in
0:01:00 > 0:01:00
0:01:00 > 0:01:05recession again? Diane Abbott? we can't. The Tory-led Government
0:01:05 > 0:01:11claimed they had a plan and like some crazed Victorian doctor they
0:01:11 > 0:01:17argued the more they cut things, the healthier the patient would be.
0:01:17 > 0:01:22Well, their plan has proved fatal. We are in recession again and we
0:01:22 > 0:01:26are going into a slump. What we have argued, and we have argued it
0:01:26 > 0:01:32ever since this new Tory-led Government came to power, is we
0:01:32 > 0:01:36need a plan for jobs and growth. All Cameron and Osbourne have is sa
0:01:36 > 0:01:41plan for cuts. What is worse, they're not pursuing this cuts
0:01:41 > 0:01:44agenda as they say because they have to, to a a great extent
0:01:44 > 0:01:47they're pursuing this agenda because they want to. If they were
0:01:47 > 0:01:52really interested in saving money they wouldn't have rammed through
0:01:52 > 0:01:57those NHS reforms which will cost �3 billion and counting. They have
0:01:57 > 0:02:01a mission to cut the public sector in principle and it's ordinary
0:02:01 > 0:02:04people. There are people in this audience who will not have jobs in
0:02:04 > 0:02:0912 months because of economic policies. There are young people
0:02:09 > 0:02:14leaving school and uni this year who will not get jobs and maybe
0:02:14 > 0:02:24never have a proper job and it's ordinary people paying the price of
0:02:24 > 0:02:28the Tories' economic incompetence. APPLAUSE.
0:02:28 > 0:02:31Chris Grayling. You wouldn't be surprised that I completely
0:02:31 > 0:02:34disagree with Diane. This week's figures, the return to recession
0:02:34 > 0:02:37was immensely disappointing and I am the person who does the
0:02:37 > 0:02:40interviews each month about unemployment. I am responsible for
0:02:40 > 0:02:44unemployment and helping people back to work. This matters
0:02:44 > 0:02:48enormously. This is not something we want to happen. We didn't come
0:02:48 > 0:02:54to office wanting to cut things back. Two years ago the Government
0:02:54 > 0:02:56was borrowing �1 in every �4 it spent. You know that from your
0:02:56 > 0:03:00personal finances, if you do that you quickly run into serious
0:03:00 > 0:03:05problems. We see some of those problems in other European
0:03:05 > 0:03:10countries. The only reason we are plot -- not in the same position
0:03:10 > 0:03:14many European countriess are in is because we set about trying to
0:03:14 > 0:03:17stablise our finances. If we don't do that we will have businesses
0:03:17 > 0:03:20that won't want to invest in the UK, people moving away to take jobs
0:03:20 > 0:03:23elsewhere. The only way we are going to build growth and success
0:03:23 > 0:03:29for this country in the future is if we have a stable environment for
0:03:29 > 0:03:32business. Why are we doing so much worse than almost everybody in the
0:03:32 > 0:03:36G7 apart from Italy I think at the moment and the question was how can
0:03:36 > 0:03:40we have confidence in the policy. You can have confidence in the
0:03:40 > 0:03:44policy because every major international observer, the IMF,
0:03:44 > 0:03:47OECD, all the bodies that study what Government is doing
0:03:47 > 0:03:51economically say our strategy is the right one and the reality is
0:03:51 > 0:03:55that we are still able to go to the financial markets, borrow money to
0:03:55 > 0:03:58fill a deficit that's still too large. But we would not be able to
0:03:58 > 0:04:01do that if they did not believe we were moving in the right direction.
0:04:01 > 0:04:05The reason other European countries are having the problems they are is
0:04:05 > 0:04:08people won't lend to them any more. We are stablising the economy in
0:04:08 > 0:04:11this country. We have to do that and I am absolutely of the view
0:04:11 > 0:04:15that if we don't do what we are doing, then actually we will end up
0:04:15 > 0:04:18with higher unemployment, not lower. Polly Toynbee? We are not
0:04:18 > 0:04:22stablising the economy, not at all. We have just gone into double-dip
0:04:22 > 0:04:32recession. I don't know what you are talking about. This is bungling
0:04:32 > 0:04:32
0:04:32 > 0:04:37incompetence on a staggering scale. APPLAUSE. Not just here, but all
0:04:37 > 0:04:46around Europe, extreme austerity is being shown not to work. It's a
0:04:46 > 0:04:50disaster. You get into a death spiral. It's like ebola economics,
0:04:50 > 0:04:55more people lose their jobs and less money comes into the Treasury
0:04:55 > 0:04:59and you have to cut even more. What's really truly terrifying is
0:04:59 > 0:05:03the institute for fiscal studies says there is still 88% of the
0:05:03 > 0:05:06planned cuts still to come. We have hardly begun on this process and
0:05:06 > 0:05:11yet we have gone into double dip recession. I am terrified about
0:05:11 > 0:05:15what's to come. Unless the Government can produce a plan B for
0:05:15 > 0:05:18jobs, for growth, for investment, can give that confidence to the
0:05:18 > 0:05:22private sector to invest because businesses have a lot of money
0:05:22 > 0:05:29they're sitting on, they dare not invest partly because they hear
0:05:29 > 0:05:33people like Chris Grayling saying we are nearly like Greece and it's
0:05:33 > 0:05:36terrifying. The The deficit this year as a proportion of national
0:05:36 > 0:05:40income is virtually the same as Greece's. That's a completely non-
0:05:40 > 0:05:50fact and figure. Our economy is nothing like Greece's, never was.
0:05:50 > 0:05:52
0:05:52 > 0:05:55And by saying so... We didn't join the euro. I want to hear from Simon
0:05:55 > 0:05:59Hughes, from the other side of the Government and has confidence in
0:05:59 > 0:06:03the policy? The answer is I do, but it's of course struggling. Let's
0:06:03 > 0:06:06own up that we didn't want to be where we are now. If you remember
0:06:06 > 0:06:09two years ago when the Government was formed Labour had lost the
0:06:09 > 0:06:12election, partly because of people's lack of confidence in its
0:06:12 > 0:06:16economic handling, I am not saying it was all Labour's fault. It was
0:06:16 > 0:06:20the bankers and the Labour Government. Debt was massive. The
0:06:20 > 0:06:24deficit was massive. We couldn't not deal with it. As the coalition
0:06:24 > 0:06:27was formed television pictures were full of the crisis on the mainland
0:06:27 > 0:06:31of Europe so Government took tough measures. But things like the
0:06:31 > 0:06:34Budget actually which had some good things in it were about putting
0:06:35 > 0:06:38money back into the hands of ordinary people so you can spend it.
0:06:38 > 0:06:42It was about giving pensioners more money to spend. It was about making
0:06:42 > 0:06:46sure that more money was out and available. The encouraging news,
0:06:46 > 0:06:51David, and it's difficult and Chris is right, nobody wants to be here,
0:06:51 > 0:06:54but the quietly encouraging news is that the IMF predicts by the end of
0:06:54 > 0:06:58the year we will be back in growth. Growth bigger than Germany, bigger
0:06:58 > 0:07:01than France, bigger than the eurozone. We are all struggling,
0:07:01 > 0:07:04but a five-year plan to get out of the mess we did in the national
0:07:04 > 0:07:08interest is better than something that just goes on spending money as
0:07:08 > 0:07:15if there was no tomorrow. Simon, you really think that George
0:07:15 > 0:07:19Osborne knows what he is doing? LAUGHTER. You really think that?
0:07:19 > 0:07:22There were clearly mistakes in the Budget, both the presentation and
0:07:22 > 0:07:26of context. But you and I have been in parliament a long time, we have
0:07:26 > 0:07:29seen Chancellors of both Tory governments and Labour governments,
0:07:29 > 0:07:32we both agree privately certainly that's what we both said to each
0:07:32 > 0:07:36other, there have been lots of poor decisions made by the Treasury.
0:07:36 > 0:07:39It's not a science, it's an art. You do what you can. You try and
0:07:39 > 0:07:43get it right. All I know is that this has to be a plan for five
0:07:43 > 0:07:46years and at the end of it we want more employment, less unemployment
0:07:46 > 0:07:51and growth and that's what the Government is... Let's hear from
0:07:51 > 0:07:55the audience. I think Bill Clinton once said it's the economy, stupid.
0:07:55 > 0:07:57Would it really make any difference who was in Government and shouldn't
0:07:57 > 0:08:01really the British public accept the fact that times are tough,
0:08:01 > 0:08:04they're going to get harder, cuts need to be made, we need to balance
0:08:04 > 0:08:07the books? You can all blame each other for as long as you want but
0:08:07 > 0:08:12this country and Europe and the world is in trouble and we just
0:08:12 > 0:08:16need to accept that. Nigel Farage, do you agree? I do, actually. The
0:08:16 > 0:08:20biggest myth in British politics and this debate at the moment is
0:08:20 > 0:08:25even the use of the word cuts. Let's be clear what is actually
0:08:25 > 0:08:28happening with our public finances. One fair comment I will make to
0:08:28 > 0:08:35George Osborne, he did inherit a dreadful economic situation from
0:08:35 > 0:08:40Labour. Last year the British Government borrowed �126 billion
0:08:40 > 0:08:46more than it earned. If we go on at that rate our national debt will
0:08:46 > 0:08:50increase by a further 30% over the course of the next four years,
0:08:50 > 0:08:55leaving an absolutely massive, horrendous debt to pay back. Let's
0:08:55 > 0:09:00be clear, there are no cuts, we are borrowing massively. Last month we
0:09:00 > 0:09:03borrowed nearly another �20 billion. So, we are in a mess. We are in a
0:09:03 > 0:09:07mess and it's not easy to deal with it, because if you cut too quickly
0:09:07 > 0:09:12it does stifle demand and I understand that. But I don't think
0:09:12 > 0:09:16we are doing enough. Cutting back the public sector is a difficult
0:09:16 > 0:09:21thing to do, even Thatcher failed to do it. But what Thatcher did do
0:09:21 > 0:09:26was produce growth and why I have no confidence in this Government is
0:09:26 > 0:09:30that they have no strategy for growth and I don't see when
0:09:30 > 0:09:33Miliband gets up at PMQs that he has one either. It's partly because
0:09:33 > 0:09:37we haven't anybody on those front benches with anybody experience of
0:09:37 > 0:09:46real life, none of them have have run businesses, we are being run by
0:09:46 > 0:09:51a bunch of college kids who are hopelessly out of touch. APPLAUSE.
0:09:51 > 0:09:55The one thing I think we are missing is this: There are 4.2
0:09:55 > 0:09:59million small businesses and traders in this country, they are
0:09:59 > 0:10:02the heroes of the nation, they put their necks on the line and if you
0:10:02 > 0:10:08want to promote growth you have to remove the massive regulatory
0:10:08 > 0:10:15burden from their backs and get them out employing.
0:10:15 > 0:10:19APPLAUSE. The woman in the second row. I have
0:10:19 > 0:10:28every confidence in the Government because George Osborne feels we are
0:10:28 > 0:10:33doing so well he is sending �10 billion to the IMF. Chris Grayling,
0:10:33 > 0:10:37why are we sending �10 billion? don't don't send �10 billion, this
0:10:37 > 0:10:40is not money that could be spent on schools and hospitals and we are
0:10:40 > 0:10:44lending it to the most secure institution in the world. We are
0:10:44 > 0:10:48being members for 75 years of an international club that's rescued
0:10:48 > 0:10:52nations in trouble, including ourselves 40 years ago. Every
0:10:52 > 0:10:56country that's ever lent money to the IMF gets it back with interest.
0:10:56 > 0:11:00How much interest? I don't know the rates. The euro is going bust,
0:11:00 > 0:11:07Chris. We get interest on the money we lend? Yes. Why don't we lend
0:11:07 > 0:11:11more? LAUGHTER. I think what we are doing is fine.
0:11:11 > 0:11:16Do you know what the interest rate is? Not off the top of my head.
0:11:16 > 0:11:22don't get anything in England, half a percent or something. Serious
0:11:22 > 0:11:28point. I don't know the answer. A question... I want to bring in the
0:11:28 > 0:11:31lady up there, wait a second. can the general public ever have
0:11:31 > 0:11:38confidence in two arrogant posh boys who don't know the price of a
0:11:38 > 0:11:43pint of milk? APPLAUSE. That's roughly the
0:11:43 > 0:11:45accusation Nigel Farage is making. You answer that, because... People
0:11:45 > 0:11:49are born in different circumstances and brought up in different ways,
0:11:49 > 0:11:54they can't be blamed for that, you can't, I can't. Our parents
0:11:54 > 0:11:58determined our upbringing. You then find yourself elected. The
0:11:58 > 0:12:02decisions in the end have to be judged on their merits. One of the
0:12:02 > 0:12:07poshest people to run this country is Macmillan, he is regarded as
0:12:07 > 0:12:11having done a fantastic job after the war, buildings houses. He came
0:12:11 > 0:12:17from... He had worked in business. He hadn't left university and
0:12:17 > 0:12:20become a researcher, had he? You said wherever you come from you get
0:12:20 > 0:12:23elected. The point is they leave university, they go into research
0:12:23 > 0:12:30offices and become members of parliament, that'sed problem. --
0:12:30 > 0:12:35that's the problem. Vince Cable had a very successful career in Shell,
0:12:35 > 0:12:37worked abroad, worked at home in the developing world. He is the
0:12:37 > 0:12:45Business Secretary. He is the other person who drives the economy.
0:12:45 > 0:12:49Vince is very clear and he has been clear... Vince is very clear...
0:12:49 > 0:12:51Vince said the Government hadn't got vision? Wasn't it Vince who
0:12:51 > 0:12:54wrote to the Prime Minister and said the Government lacked vision.
0:12:54 > 0:12:57Yes and he is clear we need to do more in investing in the regions,
0:12:57 > 0:13:01more investing in manufacturing, more in investing in
0:13:01 > 0:13:06apprenticeships to make sure we get out of the economic... The man up
0:13:06 > 0:13:11there at the back in the middle. think it's a travesty when the
0:13:11 > 0:13:16Labour Party claims to represent the working class people, because
0:13:16 > 0:13:22generally working people who are paying for the mess you got us into
0:13:22 > 0:13:25and, you know, we are the ones suffering. Polly Toynbee, do you
0:13:25 > 0:13:28want to answer that? What I think about politicians and whether or
0:13:28 > 0:13:32not they're posh boys at the top of the Tory Party is it's not where
0:13:32 > 0:13:36you have come from, it's who you stand for that really matters. When
0:13:36 > 0:13:44George Osborne gets up and says we are all in this together, and then
0:13:44 > 0:13:48cuts top tax for multimillionaires and then takes money from other
0:13:48 > 0:13:51people, who he is for is for the City and for the top few percent.
0:13:51 > 0:14:01That's what really matters in politics. That's not the point he
0:14:01 > 0:14:03
0:14:03 > 0:14:05was making. We want tax to belower for the poorer. Look at the Tory
0:14:05 > 0:14:09manifesto, there was nothing about cutting tax for people on ordinary
0:14:09 > 0:14:14incomes. We had it on the front page of ours. We delivered it in
0:14:14 > 0:14:17the coalition and it's helping you and everybody else. It's important
0:14:17 > 0:14:22to take on this point about it being for the rich. I want to see
0:14:22 > 0:14:24in this country is more jobs. If we are going to attract people from
0:14:24 > 0:14:29around the world, executives taking a decision about where they're
0:14:29 > 0:14:32going to build a new factory, which country, it's a decision about
0:14:32 > 0:14:36workforce and about investment. It's also sometimes a decision
0:14:36 > 0:14:39about themselves. If they're going to pay 15% more tax in Britain than
0:14:40 > 0:14:43another country in Europe, they'll take their factory and jobss to
0:14:43 > 0:14:49another country in Europe. That's why I think it's right to cut the
0:14:49 > 0:14:52top rate of tax. We are cutting the loopholes for wealthy people who
0:14:52 > 0:14:55are using tax dodges to buy houses on the cheap. I want to attract
0:14:55 > 0:15:05successful business people from around the world to invest in the
0:15:05 > 0:15:11That's a complete fallacy. They're not investing now. Big business is
0:15:11 > 0:15:18sight on �700 50 billion under the mattress that they are refusing to
0:15:18 > 0:15:22invest -- �750 billion. And there is unpaid tax, mostly by
0:15:22 > 0:15:27corporations and big business. There is enough money to invest in
0:15:27 > 0:15:33jobs and services. And your Government, of the rich, for the
0:15:33 > 0:15:37rich, is that the Labour Party, all you can say is too much too fast.
0:15:37 > 0:15:43That Ed Miliband and Ed Balls refuse to say that they'll reverse
0:15:43 > 0:15:46the cuts if they take power. So we face years of austerity. And that's
0:15:46 > 0:15:51why Labour can't take their votes for granted any more. That's why
0:15:51 > 0:15:58this these locations there's trade unionists, there's campaigners
0:15:58 > 0:16:04standing their own candidates, the RMT, the Fire Brigades Union, Bob
0:16:04 > 0:16:10Crowe, to stand against cuts and privatisation, because the Labour
0:16:10 > 0:16:14Party has given up fighting for the working classes.
0:16:15 > 0:16:19The question is how we have confidence in the Government, with
0:16:19 > 0:16:23this dip in growth. The fact remains from 1997 to today there's
0:16:23 > 0:16:29been an average 100,000 manufacturing industry jobs have
0:16:29 > 0:16:35been lost every year. And as was said by one of the packagists
0:16:36 > 0:16:40neither party has had a strategy to deal with this. Jobs have gone to
0:16:40 > 0:16:45the Far East and Eastern Europe. Unless we hear plans to reignite
0:16:45 > 0:16:50British industry and manufacturing jobs, I think growth will be slow
0:16:50 > 0:16:52in coming. We could stop CO2 emission targets which are driving
0:16:52 > 0:16:57manufacturing business out of Britain and straight across to the
0:16:57 > 0:17:02Far East. It is absolute madness. You talk about confidence in
0:17:02 > 0:17:06Government, but you made it more difficult for philanthropists who
0:17:06 > 0:17:12give to charity, calling it tax avoidance, but what have you done
0:17:12 > 0:17:19about the likes of Lord Ashcroft, who avoided paying �1850 million in
0:17:19 > 0:17:24tax by living in the Caribbean? Lord Ashcroft has moved his affairs
0:17:24 > 0:17:29to the UK. That's a well-versed story, it is somewhat old. What
0:17:29 > 0:17:35matters in my mind is getting people to come to written to create
0:17:35 > 0:17:40jobs. We had a -- come to Britain to create jobs. In Redcar in the
0:17:40 > 0:17:44North East, a blast furnace which was mothballed has been re-opened
0:17:44 > 0:17:48by an international investor coming to the UK to play a real role where
0:17:48 > 0:17:53unemployment is too high. I will take one point from the woman in
0:17:53 > 0:17:57red and then we must go on. Since we've now entered the double dip
0:17:57 > 0:18:04recession, that's going to stop people coming here to invest.
0:18:04 > 0:18:09People are going to look ought now and compare us to Europe and go
0:18:09 > 0:18:16that Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Ireland, they are going to look at
0:18:16 > 0:18:24us and we've gone into a double dip and are we going to go the same way
0:18:24 > 0:18:33as them? We've got to do better than them. Do you think we are
0:18:33 > 0:18:38going into a slump? The danger is that if countries across Europe
0:18:38 > 0:18:48pursue George Osborne economics and just cut, we've seen a 25% drop in
0:18:48 > 0:18:49
0:18:49 > 0:18:54investment in housing. A 25% drop of investment in construction. If
0:18:54 > 0:18:59everybody does that, the economys of Europe will go into a death
0:18:59 > 0:19:07spiral. The Tories have a strategy for cuts. They do not have a
0:19:07 > 0:19:11strategy for growth, except for... We must move on. I want to come to
0:19:11 > 0:19:18Nigel Farage. Nigel, your point, you keep saying the Government is
0:19:18 > 0:19:21borrowing and borrowing, where is this money being spent? Massive
0:19:22 > 0:19:26increased social security bills, foreign aid budgets, EU
0:19:26 > 0:19:30contributions, pensions. Of course, people are living longer. That's
0:19:30 > 0:19:34exactly what happens. It's the price of failure. Nigel, would you
0:19:34 > 0:19:39cut all of these things? You are suggesting, as I understand it,
0:19:39 > 0:19:44that increase in borrowing is proof that actually money is being spent
0:19:44 > 0:19:48on the economy. Twice in this debate Diane has said the
0:19:48 > 0:19:51Government is cutting and compared it to Europe. In Europe under
0:19:51 > 0:19:56austerity there are massive cutbacks in Government spending.
0:19:56 > 0:20:00Let's great it right. Frontline services in this country are being
0:20:00 > 0:20:07cut. Bureaucracy isn't. But as a country we are borrowing vast sums
0:20:07 > 0:20:12every year. You've made your point and we must go on. One second.
0:20:12 > 0:20:18not just one second. We may come to housing later. APPLAUSE If you
0:20:18 > 0:20:28wanted to contribute to the debate, wanted to contribute to the debate,
0:20:28 > 0:20:33
0:20:33 > 0:20:38if you are tweeting tonight you I want a question from Oliver Tong.
0:20:38 > 0:20:46In the light of recent evidence heard at the Leveson Inquiry should
0:20:46 > 0:20:49Jeremy Hunt resign as Culture Secretary? The Leveson Inquiry
0:20:49 > 0:20:53suggested to some people that Jeremy Hunt was deeply involved in
0:20:53 > 0:20:57trying to ensure that Rupert Murdoch got BSkyB. Polly Toynbee,
0:20:57 > 0:21:02do you think Hunt should go? Absolutely. There was no doubt
0:21:02 > 0:21:06about it. He was about to hand the whole of Sky over the Rupert
0:21:06 > 0:21:09Murdoch. Ofcom advised him that he should give it to the Competition
0:21:09 > 0:21:13Commission. The reason he didn't give it to the Competition
0:21:13 > 0:21:19Commission was plainly because le had decided he wanted to make sure
0:21:19 > 0:21:22he favoured Rupert Murdoch and gave him what would have gifted him a
0:21:22 > 0:21:28monumental monopoly of British media. I don't think anybody quite
0:21:28 > 0:21:33understands what he would have done. He would have bundled together all
0:21:33 > 0:21:37of his newspapers, the online, the sports and movie rights, into a
0:21:37 > 0:21:41package that would have been irresistible, at a low price, as he
0:21:41 > 0:21:45would have done it as a loss-leader. He would have driven out of
0:21:45 > 0:21:49business all of the other news providers, every single one of them.
0:21:49 > 0:21:54We have been the single monopoly voice. The second thing he was
0:21:54 > 0:21:58going to do was to press to change the impartiality laws that keep our
0:21:58 > 0:22:01broadcasting decent and safe. And make sure that there is balance, in
0:22:01 > 0:22:08programmes like this. And he would have then turned his newsroom
0:22:08 > 0:22:12operation into a Fox News operation. We've seen what that has done to
0:22:12 > 0:22:16American politics. We've seen how appalling American political
0:22:16 > 0:22:23discussion has become. We were within days of doing that. If Nick
0:22:23 > 0:22:27Davies of the Guardian hasn't just unearthed and exposed at that point
0:22:27 > 0:22:31the brutality of the hacking of Milly Dowler's phone, within days
0:22:31 > 0:22:35the game would have been up, Murdoch would have had the whole
0:22:35 > 0:22:40thing and that would have been the end of the story. APPLAUSE The
0:22:40 > 0:22:48evidence that was heard... Did you not accept what Jeremy Hunt
0:22:48 > 0:22:57said, that it was his adviser, his special adviser, Adam Smith, who
0:22:57 > 0:23:06had gone beyond his remit? Spiesers live cheek by jowl with their
0:23:06 > 0:23:10Ministers. These people arrived with them, shoe have seen them --
0:23:10 > 0:23:17special advisers. A special friend? They spend more time with them on
0:23:17 > 0:23:22the whole than with your husband and children. Special advisers know
0:23:22 > 0:23:27everything you eat and breathe and drink. The idea he was far down a
0:23:27 > 0:23:32corridor, nobody had a clue what he was up to, you only have to read
0:23:32 > 0:23:36those e-mail to see he was conveying Jeremy Hunt's thoughts.
0:23:36 > 0:23:43What's more Jeremy Hunt was plainly conveying Number Ten's thoughts.
0:23:43 > 0:23:47The trail is all there. APPLAUSE Simon Hughes. Jeremy Hunt wanted
0:23:47 > 0:23:52Murdoch to succeed and did everything to feed him information
0:23:52 > 0:23:56and should resign, do you agree? don't think he should resign now,
0:23:56 > 0:23:59but die think there are severe questions which he yet answered. I
0:23:59 > 0:24:03was in the House of Commons yesterday. He has a good track
0:24:03 > 0:24:06record, he is well regarded. He wants to give evidence to Leveson.
0:24:06 > 0:24:09That's good. The Leveson Inquiry is something we pushed for and he will
0:24:09 > 0:24:15have to give evidence under oath. It's a very good thing, at last,
0:24:15 > 0:24:21we've got a public inquiry into the scandal around the closeness of the
0:24:21 > 0:24:26media and politicians. Murdoch said he never asked a politician for
0:24:26 > 0:24:33anything. The blunt truth was he didn't have to, as politicians were
0:24:33 > 0:24:37so busy chasing himself, he didn't have to. I don't have a special
0:24:37 > 0:24:41adviser. But they are pretty close to their Ministers. What I cannot
0:24:41 > 0:24:44understand is why the matter of the Ministerial Code of conduct, which
0:24:44 > 0:24:47is to do with did you take responsibility for your special
0:24:47 > 0:24:54adviser is not something the Prime Minister immediately should refer
0:24:54 > 0:24:58to the person who has been given the job to do. Sir Alex Alan. Only
0:24:58 > 0:25:01the Prime Minister can do that. He has so far resisted doing it. I
0:25:01 > 0:25:04don't think it gets in the way of the Leveson Inquiry and the
0:25:04 > 0:25:08evidence. It's a separate matter. It is about the responsibility
0:25:08 > 0:25:13between a Minister and his special adviser. How fascinating. Why do
0:25:13 > 0:25:17you think he's refused to do the obvious and proper thing to do?
0:25:17 > 0:25:21far he hasn't used that new system that's been recently set up.
0:25:21 > 0:25:25There's a code of conduct, it is a short document, 25 pages. It is not
0:25:25 > 0:25:31a book the length of the Bible you have to read and master. I would
0:25:31 > 0:25:33have thought to give confidence in the system, just as Leveson is an
0:25:33 > 0:25:37independent inquiry into the relations between the media, the
0:25:37 > 0:25:40politicians and the police, the individual who has been appointed,
0:25:40 > 0:25:44Alex Alan, to police the ministerial conduct, independent of
0:25:44 > 0:25:49Government, is the right person to look at it. I hope the Prime
0:25:49 > 0:25:52Minister reconsiders his view. That must be in Jeremy's interest. If
0:25:52 > 0:25:56Jeremy is correct in what he said, he will be vindicated, if not he
0:25:56 > 0:25:59will have to take the consequences. Did you agree with what he said and
0:25:59 > 0:26:05call on the Prime Minister to do that? No, I think what we have got
0:26:05 > 0:26:10now is a judge-led inquiry. The last time I was on this programme I
0:26:10 > 0:26:16sat on a panel demanding a judge- led inquiry. That's what we've got.
0:26:16 > 0:26:20We have to let it take its course. What about the mechanism that the
0:26:20 > 0:26:25Prime Minister could use to examine this? We've got one of the most
0:26:25 > 0:26:31senior judges to look at this. will take forever won't it? We've
0:26:31 > 0:26:37set up a process. I'm sure I'm not alone in having read reports of a
0:26:37 > 0:26:42court case and you read the reports for the prosecution and you think,
0:26:42 > 0:26:46"Blimey, this guy is guilty as hell" and then when you read the
0:26:46 > 0:26:51defence you think otherwise. that what you are saying, that this
0:26:51 > 0:26:57guy a guilty as hell? LAUGHTER We've got a collection of e-mails
0:26:57 > 0:27:03released by a PR man to his bosses, which we know contains plenty of
0:27:03 > 0:27:08spin, because they suggest he had meetings with Jeremy Hunt which he
0:27:08 > 0:27:13said he hasn't had. We've got a judge-led inquiry. Jeremy Hunt will
0:27:13 > 0:27:17give evidence to that inquiry. Most importantly Lord Leveson himself
0:27:17 > 0:27:21said yesterday he wants to allow his inquiry to take its course.
0:27:21 > 0:27:25He's asked us for that to to happen and we should let that happen.
0:27:25 > 0:27:31what Polly Toynbee suggested is the truth, would that be a very grave
0:27:31 > 0:27:38offence and would Hunt have to go? Look, I'm not going to speculate,
0:27:38 > 0:27:43you are not going to draw me on hypotheticals. Let's see what Lord
0:27:43 > 0:27:48Leveson said when he's interviewed Jeremy Hunt. One of the main
0:27:48 > 0:27:53questions we should be asking is how many more fall guys or
0:27:53 > 0:27:57scapegoats has the Government got lined up to take the rap for
0:27:57 > 0:28:02theirle from Ministers? Nigel Farage do, you agree with that?
0:28:02 > 0:28:07rather do. With his month, I mean. Let me come to it. I think the
0:28:07 > 0:28:10answer is yes. Polly made the point, I often agree with Polly about
0:28:10 > 0:28:14these things. SPADs are in the pocket of their Ministers. They
0:28:14 > 0:28:20work together, almost live together. It is that close a relationship.
0:28:20 > 0:28:24Clearly this special adviser was sending e-mails to the Murdoch
0:28:24 > 0:28:28group before the announcements were made to the House of Commons.
0:28:28 > 0:28:32Entirely inappropriate, quite wrong. That's why he's had to resign. If
0:28:32 > 0:28:36Jeremy Hunt, who is in charge of that department and directly
0:28:36 > 0:28:41employed that person, did not know what that person is doing, he
0:28:41 > 0:28:45should resign on the grounds of sheer incompetence, and if he did
0:28:45 > 0:28:49know, he should resign on the grounds of complicity. The answer
0:28:49 > 0:28:53is he won't resign yet. Certainly not before the elections take place
0:28:53 > 0:28:57next Thursday. I think Jeremy Hunt is the human shield for the Prime
0:28:57 > 0:29:00Minister. Because the big question here is, just how close was the
0:29:01 > 0:29:05Prime Minister's relationship to editors of those newspapers and to
0:29:05 > 0:29:10the Murdoch family? I suspect there's a lot more to come out
0:29:10 > 0:29:14during the Leveson Inquiry. And I think Cameron himself, we've got
0:29:14 > 0:29:21Andy Coulson, we've got Rebekah Brooks, we've got the horse
0:29:21 > 0:29:23LAUGHTER All of this. I suspect Hunt will hang on until at least
0:29:23 > 0:29:32next Thursday, but I agree that there's a lot more to come here.
0:29:32 > 0:29:37Is there not a risk the work of the Leveson inquiry will be devalued or
0:29:37 > 0:29:41undermined because this is a major instance of them finding wrongdoing
0:29:41 > 0:29:47in a Ministerial department, perhaps we will find out if it's
0:29:47 > 0:29:51the Minister himself, but as far as I can see if it's this easy to
0:29:51 > 0:29:56Circumvent the wrongdoing they have found how does that bode for future
0:29:56 > 0:30:00findings of the inquiry? Diane Abbott? I think Jeremy Hunt should
0:30:00 > 0:30:05resign. Jeremy Hunt thinks he should resign. I was in the House
0:30:05 > 0:30:10of Commons for his statement, if you didn't see it, he was pale, he
0:30:10 > 0:30:14was squirming. He knows his career is hanging by a thread. You said he
0:30:14 > 0:30:19thinks he should resign? I think he knows he's been caught bang to
0:30:19 > 0:30:23rights. When the Tories say let the Leveson inquiry take its course,
0:30:23 > 0:30:29the Leveson inquiry has criteria, it's not meant to decide on whether
0:30:29 > 0:30:33Ministers are in breach of the Ministerial Code of conduct and the
0:30:33 > 0:30:37Government could clear this up tomorrow. We, the Labour Party's
0:30:37 > 0:30:40calling for Jeremy Hunt to release all of the e-mails, all of the
0:30:40 > 0:30:43texts, all of the communications between himself and his special
0:30:43 > 0:30:50advisor and we would know straightaway whether the special
0:30:50 > 0:30:54advisor was acting as a lone ranger or whether he was acting as Jeremy
0:30:54 > 0:31:00Hunt's surrogate. The truth is one of the things the Leveson inquiry
0:31:00 > 0:31:05is exposing is the nature of leaks, whether it's top policemen, top
0:31:05 > 0:31:12politicians, whether it's billionaire press magnets like
0:31:12 > 0:31:14Murdoch and it's not an edifying sight and it's also true that too
0:31:14 > 0:31:19many Prime Ministers were at the beck and call of Murdoch, including
0:31:19 > 0:31:25Tony Blair, but the good thing I would say about Ed Miliband, he has
0:31:25 > 0:31:30turned the page on that. He was the first to condemn Murdoch. The first
0:31:30 > 0:31:36to call for rebeak ka Wade to stand down. Vince Cable was the first to
0:31:36 > 0:31:40pull the plug. If you read two days ago what's come up at the inquiry
0:31:40 > 0:31:45is that the Murdoches targeted Vince Cable and he did not fall for
0:31:45 > 0:31:55it. He refused to meet them. He has been vindicated. Let's give a cheer
0:31:55 > 0:31:58
0:31:58 > 0:32:06for good old Vince Cable! APPLAUSE. The woman over there.
0:32:06 > 0:32:10Thank you, Sir. You don't need a Mike rephone -- microphone! Isn't
0:32:10 > 0:32:12the concept of Ministerial responsibility that a Minister
0:32:12 > 0:32:15should no matter if they know what's happening in the department
0:32:15 > 0:32:18take the flack. We have seen that in governments before and
0:32:18 > 0:32:26constantly in this Government we have people like Theresa May who
0:32:26 > 0:32:30keep making mistakes but seem to still on while civil servants go.
0:32:30 > 0:32:36One more comment on this before we move on from you Chris Grayling.
0:32:36 > 0:32:40Article 33 of the Ministerial Code says: Individual Ministers will be
0:32:40 > 0:32:43accountable to the Prime Minister, parliament and the public, that's
0:32:43 > 0:32:47us, for their actions and decisions in respect of their special
0:32:48 > 0:32:52advisors. Doesn't that mean that if your special advisor screws up you
0:32:52 > 0:32:55have to go as well? Yesterday morning Lord Leveson specifically
0:32:55 > 0:33:00said to the Government... I am asking you, not Lord Leveson. You
0:33:00 > 0:33:03are not Lord href he is son -- Leveson. He asked us to leave this
0:33:03 > 0:33:08matter in the hands of his inquiry and we have decided we should do
0:33:08 > 0:33:13that. I am not sure he did. He did not say that. We must move on.
0:33:13 > 0:33:23We take now a question on a matter very important, particularly in
0:33:23 > 0:33:23
0:33:23 > 0:33:28this part of London, I should guess, from Eleanor Bowtell. Do you feel
0:33:28 > 0:33:36moving low income families from Newham to stock on Trent is a --
0:33:36 > 0:33:42stock on Trent is a -- Stoke-on- Trent is a form of social cleansing.
0:33:42 > 0:33:44Newham has written to Stoke-on- Trent, one of only 1,000 housing
0:33:44 > 0:33:49associations and organisation it is appears to have written, to trying
0:33:49 > 0:33:53to get them to take up to 500 families on their waiting list. All
0:33:53 > 0:33:58right, Simon Hughes, not too long but what's your answer? The answer
0:33:58 > 0:34:01is that I think the Labour mayor of Newham acted wrongly in doing that.
0:34:01 > 0:34:04It wasn't necessary. It was alarmist. It was premature. There
0:34:04 > 0:34:08wasn't any need to think that there will be need to send people around
0:34:08 > 0:34:12the country. It's wrong in principle anyway. The principle
0:34:12 > 0:34:15should be even if people have to move to somewhere that is cheaper
0:34:15 > 0:34:23because of the restrictions on benefits, it should be within the
0:34:23 > 0:34:28community you come from. I checked before I came out today, Newham had
0:34:28 > 0:34:34523,000 given last year as part of the discretionary fund, Havering
0:34:34 > 0:34:38164,000, my borough 331. Extra money has been given to try to meet
0:34:38 > 0:34:42the shortfall between the money that is available automatically and
0:34:42 > 0:34:45the rents - there is a big issue, we are not going to solve it until
0:34:45 > 0:34:52we have much more housing built. That is why in the mayoral election
0:34:52 > 0:35:02we have said if you use the public land in London you could build new
0:35:02 > 0:35:03
0:35:03 > 0:35:06homes. Hang on a second. I will come to you. When Labour were in
0:35:06 > 0:35:10power council house building effectively stopped. Affordable
0:35:10 > 0:35:15housing stopped off hugely. We need a massive house-building programme
0:35:15 > 0:35:18in London, that's the medium and long-term policy. Unless we do that
0:35:18 > 0:35:26people in this borough and my borough... What are you saying the
0:35:26 > 0:35:32motive of the housing supply and projects manager in Newham was?
0:35:32 > 0:35:38With the onset of the Olympics, gap between local housing allowance and
0:35:38 > 0:35:42market rents is beginning to widen and could you take on up to 500
0:35:42 > 0:35:46families waiting in the private rented sector? What is the motive?
0:35:46 > 0:35:49I get it was to anticipate what he anticipated might be a problem down
0:35:50 > 0:35:53the track. But the encouraging news recently because of benefits
0:35:53 > 0:35:59changes is that rents are going down a bit in London, they're huge,
0:35:59 > 0:36:04they're massive, but they're going down a bit in some parts of London.
0:36:04 > 0:36:07What we have - no, it's not wrong. It rose in London last year. They
0:36:07 > 0:36:11started recently, the figures are there. What we have got to do,
0:36:11 > 0:36:15however, is make sure we don't alarm people, and each borough
0:36:15 > 0:36:18should be looking if people have to move for accommodation, near to
0:36:18 > 0:36:27where they're currently live and there is still some accommodation
0:36:27 > 0:36:31available. You, Sir. I am a housing worker with a local authority and
0:36:31 > 0:36:33the cold hard reality is many private landlords will not let
0:36:33 > 0:36:39their properties to people on housing benefit and the reality is
0:36:39 > 0:36:42we are going to see more and more people compulsory moved out of
0:36:42 > 0:36:45London and it's a worrying development and although I won't be
0:36:45 > 0:36:51voting for Ken first choice, second choice I will be, because he is
0:36:51 > 0:36:54raising some issues around housing. Capping of rents, looking at
0:36:54 > 0:36:59creating situations where landlords, certainly in Newham, for example,
0:36:59 > 0:37:02the mayor of Newham has made a bold decision in my view to try and -
0:37:02 > 0:37:08has made a declaration and is consulting with the community and
0:37:08 > 0:37:11landlords in their borough to license all land landlords. If you
0:37:11 > 0:37:16let out a property you have to be licensed. That's something we
0:37:16 > 0:37:21should think about. Compulsorily moved out of London. Will that
0:37:21 > 0:37:26happen? It doesn't need to happen. Let's explain... Sorry, it doesn't
0:37:27 > 0:37:31need to happen. It won't happen or might? The example of Waltham
0:37:31 > 0:37:35Forest, there are around 1,000 properties currently available for
0:37:35 > 0:37:39rent which fit within the thresholds we have set. The reality
0:37:39 > 0:37:43is there is a good reason why we are doing this. We as taxpayers
0:37:43 > 0:37:47have been paying very substantial amounts of money to support people
0:37:47 > 0:37:51living in parts of the town, parts of the city, they would not be able
0:37:51 > 0:37:55to afford to live in if they were in work. Those in work have to
0:37:55 > 0:37:58adapt circumstances, live in areas they can afford to live in. If we
0:37:58 > 0:38:00pay for people who are not in work to live in areas they can't afford
0:38:00 > 0:38:05to live in if they get a job they'll never get a job, they'll
0:38:05 > 0:38:14never be able to afford to move off benefits. That's why this system.
0:38:14 > 0:38:21Most housing benefit is paid to work who work -- paid to people who
0:38:21 > 0:38:25work. Polly Toynbee. I think Chris Grayling has just said what's true,
0:38:25 > 0:38:30they think that people who are poor should move out of London. And move
0:38:30 > 0:38:34out of all affluent areas. At least he is being honest about that. A
0:38:34 > 0:38:38lot of these people are, as you were saying, are actually in work.
0:38:38 > 0:38:43It's not true that everybody on housing benefit is out of work. But
0:38:43 > 0:38:48they're all going to be moved to areas like Stoke, where there's
0:38:48 > 0:38:51very little work. 70 people chasing every job in Stoke. We are going to
0:38:51 > 0:38:55move very large numbers of people out of places where there's more
0:38:55 > 0:39:01work, to places where there is none for them, for their children,
0:39:01 > 0:39:05forever. The truth about housing is that about - between 30-40% of the
0:39:05 > 0:39:09population have never, ever and probably never will until we have a
0:39:09 > 0:39:13more equal society, be able to afford housing without help. So,
0:39:13 > 0:39:17either you build social housing with affordable rents, or you
0:39:17 > 0:39:23subsidise them in private rents or you put them out on the street.
0:39:23 > 0:39:26They've decided a third issue. That's simply untrue. I don't think
0:39:26 > 0:39:33this is the policy of social cleansing, I think it's a reality
0:39:33 > 0:39:37of a borough facing up to a problem and saying rents are a dam sight
0:39:37 > 0:39:40cheaper. That's what they're doing. We have to ask ourselves why is
0:39:40 > 0:39:45this happening. One reason, of course is that real estate in
0:39:45 > 0:39:48London is rising, it rose 7.3% last year. There's lots of foreign money
0:39:49 > 0:39:53buying property, quite a lot of Greek money incidentally fleeing
0:39:53 > 0:39:57the eurozone. But we have a shortage. Yes, there are X number
0:39:57 > 0:40:00of empty properties but we have a shortage of social housing. But the
0:40:00 > 0:40:04real story here and the one that nobody on this panel I am sure
0:40:04 > 0:40:08would want to discuss, or talk about, is the extent to which over
0:40:08 > 0:40:13the last few years because of an open door immigration policy so
0:40:13 > 0:40:18much of our - well, just listen. You can jump to your prejudices,
0:40:18 > 0:40:24but think about this. In the borough - if you want to listen.
0:40:24 > 0:40:29Question Time is about debate. In Haringey and Ealing over 50% of
0:40:29 > 0:40:34social housing is now gone to people who don't even have British
0:40:34 > 0:40:36passports, they're foreign migrants. All you have to do now is if you
0:40:36 > 0:40:40come from Eastern Europe, all you have to do is get a national
0:40:40 > 0:40:44insurance number which you can get easily within a fortnight and then
0:40:44 > 0:40:54you qualify automatically for social housing. That's not true,
0:40:54 > 0:40:58
0:40:58 > 0:41:04Nigel. I talked tonight to a major landlord in central London and he
0:41:04 > 0:41:08said probably between 50-70% of all new social housing requests are
0:41:08 > 0:41:14going to foreign-born migrants and we need to ask ourselves a question.
0:41:14 > 0:41:17What is the social security system for? Is it for families that for
0:41:17 > 0:41:22generations have paid money into the system or is it here for the
0:41:22 > 0:41:27whole of Eastern Europe? That's a big debate we need to have.
0:41:27 > 0:41:31must not misrepresent the position. Nigel is completely wrong to say
0:41:31 > 0:41:35somebody can come here and within two weeks can be accepted by a
0:41:35 > 0:41:39local authority in London, that's never happened to my knowledge.
0:41:39 > 0:41:43rules changed last year. If you intend to settle here, you qualify.
0:41:43 > 0:41:46We do huge amounts of housing case work and I know how difficult it is
0:41:46 > 0:41:51to get people, particularly single people and couples into any local
0:41:51 > 0:41:55authority housing. They do not get there automatically. Just stop a
0:41:55 > 0:41:58moment. You, Sir. What you have said is completely untrue. The
0:41:58 > 0:42:02immigration rules are not as clear- cut as you have tried to explain
0:42:02 > 0:42:07them. They're in no way can someone come here from any country and
0:42:07 > 0:42:13within the first two weeks without being a contributing member of the
0:42:13 > 0:42:17United Kingdom get any housing. There is... I am sorry... I work
0:42:17 > 0:42:20for local housing, in the London borough with the lowest black and
0:42:20 > 0:42:22minority ethnic population of any of the London boroughs. And we are
0:42:22 > 0:42:28aware of the fact there is migration coming from central
0:42:28 > 0:42:30London of black and minority ethnic groups. We are also aware of the
0:42:30 > 0:42:34rules around immigration. The rules around immigration are much more
0:42:34 > 0:42:38complex than you are trying to portray them. A person cannot come
0:42:38 > 0:42:43here from any country and within two weeks, without having got
0:42:43 > 0:42:47themselves either a job or proven they are fleeing something that
0:42:47 > 0:42:54they absolutely must get away from, get any form of housing. What you
0:42:55 > 0:42:57are saying is wrong. APPLAUSE. People want to come here to
0:42:57 > 0:43:01contribute to our society and get on with their lives. You have made
0:43:01 > 0:43:04the point. You can answer. There is a difference between the rest of
0:43:04 > 0:43:07the world and the European Union. We now treat people who come from
0:43:08 > 0:43:12Eastern Europe as part of the same country as us and if you come on
0:43:12 > 0:43:19day one and say you want to settle in Britain you can claim
0:43:19 > 0:43:26jobseeker's allowance... Even a French person who comes here on day
0:43:26 > 0:43:30one... You have to show... Hold on, hold on. You have two people
0:43:30 > 0:43:33contradicting what you are saying. He He he works in the business, he
0:43:33 > 0:43:36says fpls you are saying he has it wrong? I spoke today to several
0:43:36 > 0:43:39people who work in this industry and if you come to Britain and say
0:43:39 > 0:43:44on day one I intend to threl in this country. -- settle in this
0:43:44 > 0:43:52country. I need a national insurance number, you qualify for
0:43:52 > 0:43:58social housing. Diane Abbott? We have a difference of opinion. Is it
0:43:58 > 0:44:02social cleansing that's happening with this move, if it happens from
0:44:02 > 0:44:04Newham to Stoke-on-Trent Stoke on? First of all, it's not just the
0:44:04 > 0:44:07Labour borough of Newham, Westminster is doing the same and I
0:44:07 > 0:44:11think we are going to see more boroughs doing this and although we
0:44:11 > 0:44:15have heard from the Tories and the Lib Dems as all this housing
0:44:15 > 0:44:20available in these boroughs, most of these lands Lords will not take
0:44:20 > 0:44:24people on housing benefits and to repeat, most people on housing
0:44:24 > 0:44:28benefit are no scrounger, they're actually in work. What we are
0:44:28 > 0:44:32seeing, the sort of pressures that are forcing boroughs like Newham
0:44:32 > 0:44:38and Westminster to look at decanting the poorest people out of
0:44:38 > 0:44:42London, hundreds of miles away, will be pressures that come to bear
0:44:42 > 0:44:50on the working poor and middle income people in time. The Tories
0:44:50 > 0:44:54want a London which is fit for bankers. That's completely untrue.
0:44:54 > 0:45:04That's where policy is going. Correct me if I am wrong, but you
0:45:04 > 0:45:06
0:45:06 > 0:45:11as Labour support a cap on welfare What we support... LAUGHTER
0:45:11 > 0:45:15support a reform of housing benefits. Quite right. A cap in
0:45:15 > 0:45:19other words? We support a cap but we don't support the sort of cap
0:45:19 > 0:45:23that the Tories are introducing. Not least because it doesn't take
0:45:23 > 0:45:28account of the hugely inflated housing costs in London. Housing
0:45:28 > 0:45:32costs in London are way out of line for anywhere in the country. There
0:45:32 > 0:45:36is all sorts of pressures on London. My view, and all of our policies in
0:45:36 > 0:45:41the Labour Party are up for review, and my view is of course we
0:45:41 > 0:45:47shouldn't be spending billions on housing benefit. But where that
0:45:47 > 0:45:52money going? It is going into the pockets of greedly landlords. My
0:45:52 > 0:45:59personal view is that it is time we looked at rent controls. New York
0:45:59 > 0:46:05has rent controls. We could look at that. Why should the taxpayer spend
0:46:05 > 0:46:11billions to subsidise landlords? would like to ask Polly and Diane
0:46:11 > 0:46:18about this whole idea of moving poor people out of London and this
0:46:18 > 0:46:26sense that to move outside of Zone 1 is a fate worse than death? How
0:46:26 > 0:46:30do you think those of us in Zone 6 cope? I can't afford to live in
0:46:30 > 0:46:36Notting Hill. We are talking about moving from London to Stoke, from
0:46:36 > 0:46:43somewhere where you might get a job to being moved 130 miles away where
0:46:43 > 0:46:53you won't get a job. It was one of many schemes being looked at. My
0:46:53 > 0:47:00issue and the references to Kosovo- style cleansing, almost comparisons
0:47:00 > 0:47:04to the Holocaust. It was you who said the final solution. I realise
0:47:04 > 0:47:09Polly, with respect to you, it must be horrendous to consider moving
0:47:09 > 0:47:13outside of this Londoncentric area thaw come from. If you live in a
0:47:13 > 0:47:17place, wherever, and you are then sent hundreds of miles away to a
0:47:17 > 0:47:21place where there are no jobs, where you are going to live on
0:47:21 > 0:47:25benefits, where you won't be able to afford to visit your family and
0:47:25 > 0:47:30friends, you are going to take your kids out of school to move them to
0:47:30 > 0:47:36this other place. But how does everybody nels the country, the 95%
0:47:36 > 0:47:43of the British population which doesn't live in central London
0:47:43 > 0:47:47cope? How do they cope? APPLAUSE haven't explained ourselves
0:47:47 > 0:47:52properly. I would love to live in central London but I can't afford
0:47:52 > 0:47:55it. We are not talking about people being moved around the M25 but
0:47:56 > 0:48:00hundreds of miles away. That's a very different thing. And the
0:48:00 > 0:48:04Government clearly said, Iain Duncan Smith, I put it to him, was
0:48:04 > 0:48:10I have concerns that people in my borough of Southwark might be
0:48:10 > 0:48:13required to move to places where they don't have community links, I
0:48:14 > 0:48:16am concerned they shouldn't be moved out of the borough that's
0:48:16 > 0:48:20their home, and Iain Duncan Smith was clear that people shouldn't
0:48:20 > 0:48:24have to move across London or across England to other parts.
0:48:24 > 0:48:33only works if you have a cap. By definition people will be losing
0:48:33 > 0:48:38the houses they are no. -- they are in. We've argue afford special cap
0:48:38 > 0:48:43for London, as London has special housing costs. We've argued that
0:48:43 > 0:48:47there should be a licensing system for those who rent private
0:48:47 > 0:48:57accommodation to make sure it is of decent quality and they turn away
0:48:57 > 0:49:02people on benefits. Even moving people who live in this coveting
0:49:02 > 0:49:06house spoog a further-out zone might not sound like the end of the
0:49:06 > 0:49:10world for some people, but a lot of people are in basic paid jobs and
0:49:10 > 0:49:14they turn the wheels of London. Even moving them slightly further
0:49:14 > 0:49:22out will help put them in a poverty cycle. APPLAUSE
0:49:22 > 0:49:28Thank you. It is one thing to say that this problem's going to come
0:49:28 > 0:49:38to middle earners, it is there now. Middle earners were can't afford
0:49:38 > 0:49:41
0:49:41 > 0:49:46rent or get mortgages and are stuck in a rut. I want to live in
0:49:46 > 0:49:50Kensington and Chelsea. I doerpbgts because I can't afford it. Are -- I
0:49:50 > 0:49:56don't, because I can't afford it. Are you saying I have to pay my
0:49:56 > 0:50:01taxs so that other people can? My family didn't live in Kensington
0:50:01 > 0:50:08and Chelsea. Is that what you are saying? I live in a different
0:50:08 > 0:50:14borough because I can't afford to live in Kensington and cheap. I
0:50:14 > 0:50:20wasn't grown up there. I live where I can afford. Is that too much to
0:50:20 > 0:50:24afford? Is it right for me to subsidise, I pay my taxes, I'm subs
0:50:25 > 0:50:30dising someone to live somewhere just because that's where they grew
0:50:30 > 0:50:35up? APPLAUSE I want to take a last question from Philomena Degnan,
0:50:36 > 0:50:40please. Should the contraceptive pill be available to girls as young
0:50:40 > 0:50:44as 13 without prescription, as suggested by an NHS report? This is
0:50:44 > 0:50:49the NHS South East London, following the example of what's
0:50:49 > 0:50:52been happening in the Isle of Wight and Manchester, saying the
0:50:52 > 0:50:57contraceptive pill without a GP prescription should be given to
0:50:57 > 0:51:02girls as young as 13. Is this a good idea, a sensible idea, is it
0:51:02 > 0:51:07right? The age of consent is 16 in this country. I feel if we just
0:51:07 > 0:51:12give out contraceptives to girls as young as 13 without informing their
0:51:12 > 0:51:15GP, but perhaps more importantly without informing their parents, we
0:51:16 > 0:51:20are actually encouraging the break of the law. The other choice is we
0:51:20 > 0:51:26bring the age of consent down to 13. I don't think many of us would
0:51:26 > 0:51:31think that's a very good idea. Look, I know social habits change, but
0:51:31 > 0:51:36the idea that somebody as young and in many cases mentally fragile as
0:51:36 > 0:51:4013 should be able to go and get contraception without any reference
0:51:40 > 0:51:47too her parents or a local GP, that's a very bad idea indeed.
0:51:47 > 0:51:54APPLAUSE Chris Grayling? Has the NHS got this wrong? Well, first of
0:51:54 > 0:51:58all we checked that the NHS is not doing this. I completely agree with
0:51:58 > 0:52:05Nigel, it would be wrong to do it. How did you mean it is not
0:52:05 > 0:52:11happening? It's been in the papers. There was a trial, I don't know
0:52:11 > 0:52:15whether Simon can endorse this, five pharmacists in Southwark, and
0:52:15 > 0:52:20in Lambeth, and it has been happening in Manchester and the
0:52:20 > 0:52:25Isle of Wight and the NHS is recommending it should be rolled
0:52:25 > 0:52:30out. I spoke to my depletion the health area that said it wasn't
0:52:30 > 0:52:35happening. Simon might know better. In Southwark and Lambeth we have
0:52:35 > 0:52:40the highest teenage pregnancy rates in the UK. The answer is that it is
0:52:40 > 0:52:43a recommendation based on asking people and checking in a few sample
0:52:43 > 0:52:47places in Southwark and Lambeth. It clearly isn't agreed by the NHS,
0:52:47 > 0:52:53Chris is right. It would have to be put on the agenda. It is not
0:52:53 > 0:53:00something for the NHS to decide without public assent and
0:53:00 > 0:53:05parliamentary approval. Is it true or false? It is currently true.
0:53:05 > 0:53:10They could decide to do it. Chris Grayling is wrong to say it
0:53:11 > 0:53:14hasn't been try? It hasn't been tried except in individual
0:53:14 > 0:53:20surgeries as a test project, understand the Isle of Wight and
0:53:20 > 0:53:25Manchester. I just wanted you to clar fight. We should assume that
0:53:25 > 0:53:28�al assent is required. In some cases children's parents are not
0:53:28 > 0:53:33competent to give that responsibility, so it is a proper
0:53:33 > 0:53:38issue for us to debate if we are to bring teenage pregnancy rates down.
0:53:38 > 0:53:43Do you think it should happen? Nigel, you say that contraceptive
0:53:43 > 0:53:51pills should not be available through pharmacies to 13-year-old
0:53:51 > 0:53:55girls who may be, you say, incompetent but you may be allowing
0:53:55 > 0:53:59a 13-year-old girl to have a child. If they are not capable of getting
0:53:59 > 0:54:08contraception, they are not capable of raising a child. Sure getting
0:54:08 > 0:54:13contraception is preferable to that? Polly Toynbee. I doubt
0:54:13 > 0:54:17anybody thinks girls having sex 1593 is a good idea. It is almost
0:54:17 > 0:54:22always under duress, but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. A lot of
0:54:22 > 0:54:26them will not have functioning families. There won't be very many
0:54:26 > 0:54:30of them. I bet not many of them were 13 years old. Of course you
0:54:30 > 0:54:33should make it available to them. At least they are going to be
0:54:33 > 0:54:38competent enough to think of contraception, which is the first
0:54:38 > 0:54:43stage. You hope the conversation with the pharmacy and the
0:54:43 > 0:54:49counselling, and the pharmacist might persuade them to speak to
0:54:49 > 0:54:53their GPs, gou have no contraception and get pregnant, the
0:54:53 > 0:54:56very people who moralise about not having contraception or sex
0:54:56 > 0:55:06education for young people are often the same people who make the
0:55:06 > 0:55:09most noise about teen pregnancies. You are putting words into my mouth.
0:55:10 > 0:55:15There's a key difference between saying we should give unconditional
0:55:15 > 0:55:18access to 13-year-old girls to contraSeptemberive pills and there
0:55:18 > 0:55:22shouldn't be sex education. If they are ever issued to people under 16
0:55:22 > 0:55:28it should be with a degree of guidance, counselling and support.
0:55:28 > 0:55:33It shouldn't happen in an unconditional way. Should parents
0:55:33 > 0:55:38be told, of a 13-year-old, and should doctors be told? In normal
0:55:38 > 0:55:43cases parents should be aware. There are exceptional cases where a
0:55:43 > 0:55:53doctor can take a professional judgment that it is not right, but
0:55:53 > 0:55:54
0:55:54 > 0:55:59in most cases they should be aware. When a girl aged 14 has sex, she
0:55:59 > 0:56:05has (Inaudible) why should the NHS? Look, we have a law in this country
0:56:05 > 0:56:10which says the age of consent is 16. My concern is that if we go down
0:56:10 > 0:56:15this route of Dirk out free contraception, no questions asked,
0:56:15 > 0:56:19no parental information, perhaps no proper guidance or debate, what we
0:56:19 > 0:56:25do is send a message that the effective age of consent isn't 16
0:56:25 > 0:56:29but 13. And that may result in more teenage pregnancies, not less.
0:56:29 > 0:56:35going to stop you there. I have to bring Diane in. A lot of hysteria
0:56:35 > 0:56:39about this. If I had a 13-year-old girl and I thought she was going to
0:56:39 > 0:56:43a chemist to get the pill without talking to me, I would be horrified.
0:56:43 > 0:56:47But the truth is there are communities in our city where
0:56:47 > 0:56:50underage young people are having sex. Not allowing them to have
0:56:50 > 0:56:53contraception will not stop them having sex. I believe they should
0:56:53 > 0:56:57talk to their parents. Failing that they should go to a GP. But
0:56:57 > 0:57:01there'll be a small number of people whose parents either don't
0:57:01 > 0:57:05know or don't care, who can't get an appointment at their GP. Has
0:57:05 > 0:57:11anybody tried getting an appointment with their GP in least
0:57:12 > 0:57:16London recently? Their familiar si is there 9-5, five days a week. I
0:57:16 > 0:57:22would rather girls were able to get contraception rather than have an
0:57:22 > 0:57:27underage pregnancy, in that small number of cases it is the sad
0:57:27 > 0:57:31outcome but it is a preferable outcome. APPLAUSE. I'm sorry, I
0:57:31 > 0:57:36would like to bring you in, but as Russell Brand said to a special
0:57:36 > 0:57:42committee this week, time is infinite but an hour of Question
0:57:42 > 0:57:44Time isn't. Ours has come to an end. Time isn't. Ours has come to an end.
0:57:44 > 0:57:47Next week we are going to be in central London on election night.
0:57:47 > 0:57:52We'll have Iain Duncan Smith for the Tories, Harriet Harman for
0:57:52 > 0:57:55Labour, Ming Campbell for the Liberal Democrats, and Theo
0:57:55 > 0:58:00Paphitis of Dragons' Den on the panel. The week that have we'll be
0:58:00 > 0:58:05in Oldham. If you want to join the outsidience to take part and
0:58:05 > 0:58:12question our panel, either of those programmes, one in central London