:00:13. > :00:23.Last week, the voters spoke. Yesterday, the Queen. Tonight, our
:00:23. > :00:25.
:00:25. > :00:33.audience here in Oldham. We can to Question Time. -- welcome to
:00:33. > :00:37.Question Time. On our panel, the Caroline Spelman, Chris Bryant,
:00:37. > :00:41.Lord Oakeshott and Daily Telegraph's chief political
:00:41. > :00:51.commentator Peter Oborne and the Professor of Classics at Cambridge
:00:51. > :00:58.
:00:58. > :01:01.university, Mary Beard. Thank you very much indeed. Straight to our
:01:01. > :01:04.first question then from Peter Hayes, please? Why can't public
:01:04. > :01:11.sector workers accept that if they are going to live longer, they are
:01:11. > :01:15.going to have to renegotiate their pensions.
:01:15. > :01:19.Chris Bryant? I think most of them do accept that in the broad we are
:01:19. > :01:23.all, if we are going to live longer, we have got to make sure there is
:01:23. > :01:26.enough money to pay for the pension pot that we all hope we are going
:01:27. > :01:31.to be drawing out of. What I think has been unfair in the last few
:01:31. > :01:36.months is the way the Government's approached the negotiations. They
:01:36. > :01:40.suddenly decided they were going to add 3% to everybody in the public
:01:40. > :01:46.sector, the amount they have to pay every month for their pension, they
:01:46. > :01:50.decided women were going to have to work longer, quite soon, and that a
:01:50. > :01:53.lot of people would fall between two stools in the way they organise
:01:53. > :01:58.the pension system. In general, for a lot of public sector workers, it
:01:58. > :02:04.feels as if it wasn't teachers and school cleaners and dinner ladies
:02:04. > :02:07.who provided the economic problems of 2008 and what followed, but it's
:02:07. > :02:15.them who seem to be bearing the brunt of what the Government is
:02:15. > :02:20.doing and that's the unfairness. APPLAUSE
:02:20. > :02:24.Peter Oborne? I so agree with the questioner and what he's getting at
:02:24. > :02:31.there. There is been an amazing change in the way we all live in
:02:31. > :02:35.the last 20 or 30 years. Instead of looking forward to dying at 70,
:02:35. > :02:40.it's 90. That's wonderful but at the same time, we have to accept
:02:40. > :02:49.that we are going to have to work quite a bit longer, particularly
:02:49. > :02:53.since we live in a very competitive world economy and if we are going
:02:53. > :02:57.to let our finances work and we are not going to go bankrupt as a
:02:57. > :03:01.nation, we are going to have to enlarge our pensions. I do think
:03:01. > :03:06.that the public sector workers unions, who in many ways, it's
:03:06. > :03:11.perfectly true, stand up for the most vulnerable in society, but
:03:11. > :03:15.like everybody else, are going to have to adjust to the new economic
:03:15. > :03:21.environment. I don't think it's a particularly bad thing in a way,
:03:21. > :03:24.working to 70 or beyond for many people will be quite enriching.
:03:24. > :03:29.many of these people, they are not paid well. Their pensions will
:03:29. > :03:31.amount to next to nothing compared to anything that any of us at this
:03:31. > :03:36.table will be receiving in a pension. That's the unfairness I
:03:36. > :03:42.think for many of these people. That is a different...
:03:42. > :03:48.APPLAUSE OK. Do you therefore understand and support the action
:03:48. > :03:52.that was taken today? By the police and others? The police was a
:03:52. > :03:55.different demonstration, that was about the 20% cuts we'll see,
:03:55. > :03:59.16,000 fewer police officers on the streets which I think is an own
:03:59. > :04:02.goal for this country. It's an own goal and it means that crime will
:04:03. > :04:06.not be dealt with, antisocial behaviour won't be dealt with.
:04:06. > :04:10.the strikes? I don't want to see public sector workers go on strike,
:04:10. > :04:13.I would much prefer the government to be sitting round the table and
:04:13. > :04:17.negotiating. Where I think they've been unfair is they've simply said,
:04:17. > :04:23.all right, 3% extra, you've got to pay 3% extra, they've not worked
:04:23. > :04:27.out whether the pot can pay for the pensions they've already paid money
:04:27. > :04:32.into and that's the unfairness. Let's hear from the audience. The
:04:32. > :04:36.woman in the second row? Peter Oborne said a lot of people will be
:04:36. > :04:41.happy to work until over 70 or something like that. That may well
:04:41. > :04:46.be the case, but can we look at it from the perspective of other
:04:46. > :04:51.people such as teachers, nurses. How many teachers will be happen
:04:51. > :04:56.Foy stand in a classroom of rebellious teachers at the age of
:04:56. > :04:59.68 or 706? Caroline Spelman? sympathetic to tough, frontline
:04:59. > :05:03.jobs, but we are missing the point of the question here which is that
:05:03. > :05:08.whether you are in the good times or the bad times, it's a fact that
:05:08. > :05:12.we live ten years longer than people lived 30 years ago. We
:05:12. > :05:17.either face up to that and recollaborate the pensions or load
:05:17. > :05:21.up the next generation and that's not fair to them. My kids say to me,
:05:21. > :05:26.mum look, you have plenty of time to see that for our grandparents
:05:26. > :05:29.there was a problem coming with the pensions. We are not prepared to
:05:29. > :05:33.bail you out when you have had time to do something about this. Public
:05:33. > :05:39.sector pensions are still amongst the best pensions that you can have.
:05:39. > :05:42.They are secure, they are on good terms, negotiations give teachers
:05:42. > :05:46.and nurses better pensions at the end of all the negotiations and I
:05:46. > :05:51.think these strikes are ultimately futile because they don't face up
:05:51. > :05:55.to the fact that we all live longer and that costs the state a lot more.
:05:55. > :05:58.APPLAUSE The man in the second row from the
:05:58. > :06:02.back there. Could I just say for information
:06:02. > :06:08.purposes, the average age of a working class man in the North West
:06:08. > :06:12.of England is 74, so when I retire having worked for 50 years, I'm
:06:12. > :06:17.liable to get benefits for nine years. There is no way I'll get in
:06:17. > :06:21.nine years what I paid in for 50 years. Can I make another point.
:06:21. > :06:25.Instead of harping on, listening to the Tories and trying to turn the
:06:25. > :06:29.private and public sectors against each other, in f the public sectors
:06:29. > :06:33.have better pensions than the private sectors, we should be
:06:33. > :06:38.striving for the private sector to get just as good as pension as the
:06:38. > :06:43.public sector. APPLAUSE
:06:43. > :06:46.I was a pension spokesman for ten years and part of the problem was
:06:47. > :06:52.that we were trying to get the Labour Government for many years to
:06:52. > :06:56.face up to this problem of the growing gap between private and
:06:56. > :07:01.public sector pensions and it's more painful now because nothing
:07:01. > :07:09.basically was done. Peter Hayes is absolutely right to raise it. There
:07:09. > :07:15.are 23 million workers in the public sector. It's not right to
:07:15. > :07:19.say they've borne the brunt of the banking crisis. Only a third have
:07:19. > :07:25.privately funded at all. It's the taxpayers having to pay for the
:07:25. > :07:28.very large costs of public sector borns and it's right that they are
:07:28. > :07:32.reformed. The police have been mentioned and teachers and nurses
:07:32. > :07:36.and so on are having to pay, but the police, there is no grip on
:07:36. > :07:39.that and the police is the most that and the police is the most
:07:39. > :07:48.expensive one of all. They are still retiring on average at about
:07:48. > :07:50.50 and it's 30% extra it costs, if you look at your police payment. A
:07:50. > :07:54.policewoman retiring today on average will collect her pension
:07:54. > :07:59.for longer than she paid into it, so that ties into that. You must
:07:59. > :08:02.have a balance and fairness between public and private sector. I don't
:08:02. > :08:07.suppose we have any police officers here who want to comment on that.
:08:07. > :08:15.Are you a police officer? No. I'll come to you in a moment. Mary
:08:15. > :08:21.Beard? I'm been very struck by a particularly insidious way in which
:08:21. > :08:26.we use language about pensions. When I heard the term "gold plated"
:08:26. > :08:29.pension, I thought I would be proud of that. Then I discovered it was a
:08:29. > :08:35.term of abuse against the public sector. I thought that that somehow
:08:35. > :08:39.is what we fought for and I also thought it was absolutely
:08:39. > :08:43.economically sensible because if we have poor pensioners, it doesn't
:08:43. > :08:50.mean they don't cost anything, it means the burden of their health
:08:50. > :08:54.care, their social care et cetera just goes to some other bit of the
:08:54. > :08:59.public Exchequer. Old people are expensive, basically, and we have
:08:59. > :09:04.to just take that on the chin. Nobody in the public sector I think
:09:04. > :09:08.is saying, you can just ignore demography. Can I ask you a
:09:08. > :09:11.question, Mary Beard, you are a historian of the Roman empire.
:09:11. > :09:21.Remind me why the Roman empire collapsed, because it went bankrupt.
:09:21. > :09:25.Isn't that right? But it wasn't happily because of pensions.
:09:25. > :09:31.APPLAUSE. One of the worst military disasters, the Roman empire
:09:31. > :09:41.suffered, was when they tried to cut the pensions of the legionrys
:09:41. > :09:41.
:09:41. > :09:48.in AD14 and they mutinyed. APPLAUSE. The reason why the Roman
:09:48. > :09:52.empire, as I recollect from meeting Gibbon, who is obviously an
:09:52. > :09:57.inferior historian, was that the state spending became too much, too
:09:57. > :10:02.great, and the public productivity became too little. I think that is
:10:02. > :10:05.a lesson we ought to, bear in mind that the problems of the austerity
:10:05. > :10:10.and the economic problems of this century.
:10:10. > :10:14.The man on the right? I've spoken to my financial adviser who tells
:10:14. > :10:18.me I've got to increase my pension contribution by �600 a month to
:10:18. > :10:22.maintain two thirds of my salary in retirement. I can tell you that's a
:10:23. > :10:26.lot more than 3% of what I earn. Quite. You are obviously in the
:10:26. > :10:32.private sector? Yes. Can I just ask one question on this. If the state
:10:32. > :10:35.pension age for people who've got no other pension is going up to 68,
:10:35. > :10:38.on honestly, how can it be sustainable that the police go on
:10:38. > :10:45.retiring at 50 and the public sector retirement on average is 57,
:10:45. > :10:48.surely it's only fair that it moves up in the same way. But manual
:10:48. > :10:53.workers in particular whose bodies are frankly worn out by the time
:10:53. > :11:01.they get to 65 are the people who die at 70 and never get to enjoy a
:11:01. > :11:04.proper and decent retirement. APPLAUSE. That's the point. They
:11:04. > :11:09.are in the private sector, that's fine. All right, we'll go on. We
:11:09. > :11:17.have many questions tonight. Luke Rigg, please?
:11:17. > :11:21.Was race an issue in the recent Rochdale grooming case? This is the
:11:21. > :11:26.case that happened in Rochdale six miles or so from here and one of
:11:26. > :11:30.the defendants came from Oldham. Nine men all of Asian origin found
:11:30. > :11:35.guilty of sexual exploitation of underage white girls. Some of you
:11:35. > :11:43.will have read the story in the newspapers. Was race an issue in
:11:43. > :11:47.the case? Peter Oborne? I think that it's very important not to
:11:47. > :11:54.jump to judgment at this stage. It's clear that an awful lot of
:11:54. > :12:00.things were involved in what is an absolutely shattering and
:12:00. > :12:07.disgusting and depraved episode in our national life. I mean, one of
:12:07. > :12:13.them involves the young girls who accepted the advances of these
:12:13. > :12:16.disgusting men. What does it tell us about the society and what's
:12:16. > :12:21.happening to our society that we have 12, 13-year-old girl who is
:12:21. > :12:27.are happy to give up their affection and their beauty to men
:12:27. > :12:31.in exchange for a packet of crisps or a bit of credit on their mobile
:12:31. > :12:37.phones. What is it about them that makes them so vulnerable? What's
:12:37. > :12:41.happened to their families and parents? Some of the girls came
:12:41. > :12:46.from our care system. Why are we failing to administer our care
:12:46. > :12:50.system? Now, the question was about race and is this the major issue
:12:50. > :12:56.and I do think it's worth saying this is a horrifying episode and we
:12:56. > :13:05.must tell the truth about it, we must look at it very, very clearly
:13:05. > :13:09.and it is the case that the nine men who have been found guilty now
:13:09. > :13:13.were, eight from Pakistan, one from Afghanistan. We've got to look at
:13:13. > :13:19.that, but I don't want to... I mean I've been looking at some figures
:13:19. > :13:26.today, I read today that 95% of paedophiles in our jails are white,
:13:26. > :13:29.so I think that, and I also noticed that the BNP and writers who hate
:13:29. > :13:34.Islam and Muslims, have been jumping on this, saying there's
:13:34. > :13:40.something evil about Muslims and I just absolutely don't believe that
:13:40. > :13:50.because the Koran and the teaching of the prophet and all that is
:13:50. > :13:52.
:13:52. > :13:56.incredibly moral. It condemns this The judge in the case said one of
:13:56. > :13:59.the factors leading to this case was the fact they were not part of
:13:59. > :14:04.your community our religion. What did he mean by that? He also went
:14:04. > :14:10.on to say, by the way, I think, that race was not an issue. I think
:14:10. > :14:13.that is right. I think what he needs to say - that they were not
:14:13. > :14:17.part - that the men involved were not part of the community. Let's
:14:17. > :14:22.hear - we had lots and lots of questions about this. Let's just
:14:22. > :14:26.hear from some members of our audience. You, sir, in the front.
:14:26. > :14:29.Yes. As somebody who works in that community, in Heywood, in
:14:29. > :14:36.particular, I don't believe that race has anything to do with this
:14:36. > :14:40.case anymore than religion does, whether it's Islam, Christianity,
:14:40. > :14:44.Judaism or supporting the BNP, which is a religion to some people.
:14:44. > :14:48.What we have here is breakdown in the cultural values of society
:14:48. > :14:54.where parents no longer have an influence in how their Children Act
:14:54. > :14:58.and respond because their children are guided by peripheral ideologies
:14:58. > :15:02.and interests where they feel it is appropriate at 13 to go out -
:15:02. > :15:07.forgive me for saying this - I am not saying the victims in this case
:15:07. > :15:10.did this, but it's certainly prevalent in the streets in the
:15:11. > :15:14.area - where they go out dressed as if they're looking for that sort of
:15:14. > :15:19.issue to take place. They don't give themselves - no, no. Please.
:15:19. > :15:23.Let me explain. They don't give themselves the privilege of growing
:15:23. > :15:27.up anymore. What is happening is children are growing up too fast.
:15:27. > :15:33.As you, Peter, said... You're talking entirely about the victims?
:15:33. > :15:37.No, I am not saying that this is what the victims in this case did,
:15:37. > :15:42.which is I think what people misinterpreted what I am saying - I
:15:42. > :15:47.am saying too often when children aren't allowed the privilege to
:15:47. > :15:52.grow up as children anymore but by society's input they're forced to
:15:52. > :16:01.grow up too soon, then they become more vulnerable to these predatory
:16:01. > :16:05.people. Do you agree what Jack Straw said way back about people
:16:05. > :16:10.from other countries seeing these girls as easy meat? Of course I
:16:10. > :16:15.don't. I'll come to you in a moment. The woman at the back. Isn't it
:16:15. > :16:18.about time as a society we had an open and honest debate about race?
:16:18. > :16:22.Because there's too many people - they talk about it quietly among
:16:22. > :16:26.themselves, but they're frightened to say anything in case they're
:16:26. > :16:30.accused of being racist, and unless we do have an open debate about
:16:30. > :16:35.this, we're going to play into the hands of the BNP. I honestly don't
:16:35. > :16:41.believe it is just Asian men doing this, and I've worked with
:16:41. > :16:45.vulnerable young girls. I think they tend to be in a gang and white
:16:45. > :16:50.paedophiles do it singley. That I think is probably the difference.
:16:50. > :16:55.But I think as a society, we have to address race in this country,
:16:55. > :16:58.and we have to do it honestly. would you address race in the way
:16:58. > :17:01.that you've described? What would you say about this case and the
:17:01. > :17:07.race issue? I think we've got to stop with this political
:17:07. > :17:12.correctness and allow people to say, I'm not happy about this, that or
:17:12. > :17:16.the other. In Aldham, we had the race riots, and people supposedly
:17:16. > :17:20.addressed them. I stand at the bus stop, and I talk to people, and
:17:21. > :17:24.what people on the street are saying are not what the councillors
:17:24. > :17:29.are saying or other people. We're saying something totally different.
:17:29. > :17:35.Nobody's listening to us. We're not racist, but we want to address this
:17:35. > :17:39.issue. All right. Yes. I'm listening to you very cheerily,
:17:39. > :17:43.and you know, I've read -- clearly, and I've read the newspaper
:17:43. > :17:47.articles, and most importantly, I read what the judge said. He didn't
:17:47. > :17:52.mince his words especially just having heard from a reverend. He
:17:52. > :17:57.said it's lust and greed at the root of this, not race. Now, that's
:17:57. > :18:02.powerful thing to say, but it's true, I'm afraid, we need to look
:18:02. > :18:06.at our society and see that the sexual exploitation of women is
:18:06. > :18:10.endemic. When a recent survey was done of the number of illegally
:18:11. > :18:15.trafficked young girls to London, they found between eight and 9,000
:18:15. > :18:19.young women being exploited in this way, so sadly, it's everywhere, and
:18:19. > :18:25.it's not an easy time to be the parent of young teenaged girls. You
:18:25. > :18:29.can't just lock them up at 7.00pm. We don't want to live in a country
:18:29. > :18:34.where we need to lock up women at that time. We try and give them the
:18:34. > :18:37.right values, the right instincts to keep themselves safe, and to
:18:37. > :18:42.keep them safe from sexual predator, but that'll take all of us working
:18:42. > :18:49.together to make sure that they are safe on our streets. Can I - can I
:18:49. > :18:53.- the question was, was race an issue? Can I quote to you from
:18:53. > :18:57.Bernean ardo's former chief? He says for this particular sort of
:18:57. > :19:00.crime - that's clearly what we're talking about - there is troubling
:19:00. > :19:05.evidence that Asians are overwhelmingly represented in the
:19:06. > :19:10.prosecutions for such offences. can't duck that issue of race in
:19:10. > :19:14.this case. Everyone says we mustn't duck it, then says nothing. Because
:19:14. > :19:19.I believe in this community there are people of different races who
:19:19. > :19:22.would abhor this crime and publicly condemn it who would work together
:19:22. > :19:27.to stamp it out, and different parts of the country have this same
:19:27. > :19:31.experience - the problem of young women being sexually exploited that
:19:31. > :19:37.their communities have to address. This is something where we're all
:19:37. > :19:41.in it together. You, sir. This is about criminals going after
:19:41. > :19:46.vulnerable young children. They couldn't care less if you're white,
:19:46. > :19:51.you're black or Eurasians, and you know, it's got nothing to do with
:19:51. > :19:54.religion, nothing to do with Islam. It's got nothing to do with one's
:19:54. > :19:59.culture. It's simply they're going after young, vulnerable children
:19:59. > :20:03.and here, with white kids. If they were Asians - young Asian girls
:20:03. > :20:07.there, nothing would have stopped them. We're talking about evil men
:20:07. > :20:10.who prey on vulnerability. think they would have preyed
:20:10. > :20:12.equally on - there were some interpretations that said they
:20:13. > :20:18.wouldn't prey on Asian women because they had a different kind
:20:18. > :20:21.of respect for them. They had rules about marriage, have rules about
:20:21. > :20:26.having girlfriends and all of that. That's why they turned to white
:20:26. > :20:29.girls. You see, we're looking at evil men here. I was reading an
:20:29. > :20:33.article by Peter Fahey, the Chief Constable for Greater Manchester.
:20:33. > :20:38.He's saying the same thing - look, don't bring race, culture or
:20:38. > :20:42.religion into it. It's simply down to vulnerable young children.
:20:42. > :20:47.woman here in the green. You, yes. I think one of the main
:20:47. > :20:52.issues we've got to look at here is in 2008, one of these poor girls
:20:52. > :20:58.went to the police, and the CPS and the police, despite them having
:20:58. > :21:02.strong evidence - they had her underwear - they neglected to take
:21:02. > :21:09.this case any further, and I think the CPS and the police have to be
:21:09. > :21:14.looked at in this. Professor Mary Beard.
:21:14. > :21:18.One thing is absolutely certain - we don't yet have a really good,
:21:18. > :21:23.accurate picture of any of this kind of stuff - horrible as it is -
:21:23. > :21:27.and how it is working across the country. We've got pockets of
:21:27. > :21:34.statistics, but they're tiny, and they may not be representative. One
:21:34. > :21:39.thing is certain, however - that nasty, predatory sexual offenders
:21:39. > :21:44.come in all shapes and sizes, and they come in all colours, and I
:21:44. > :21:48.find myself thinking on my way up here, what advice would I give - if
:21:48. > :21:53.I had a teen daughter wherever I was living - whether it was London
:21:53. > :21:59.or Manchester or Aberdeen - would I say, be careful of the Asians on
:21:59. > :22:04.the street? No, I wouldn't. I would say don't take a drink or a packet
:22:04. > :22:13.of cigarettes or a packet of crisps from some guy you don't know, and
:22:13. > :22:17.at that point race would not come into it. Absolutely. Down there.
:22:17. > :22:20.Yes. I agree. I think it has absolutely nothing to do with race.
:22:21. > :22:26.These were just bad people. About what the man at the front saying
:22:26. > :22:30.about young girls - these girls were just a few years younger than
:22:30. > :22:34.me, probably two or three years. If they want to go out and wearing a
:22:35. > :22:40.shorter dress than, say, an Asian girl or heels, I don't see how that
:22:40. > :22:46.makes them more vul merer inable or -- is vulnerable or asking for it.
:22:46. > :22:49.It's got nothing to do with race. I know it sounds mean, but if these
:22:49. > :22:52.girls were willing to accept these things off these men - I know it's
:22:52. > :22:57.no excuse for what they did - but you have to be careful. Society
:22:57. > :23:03.isn't the same as a few years ago. You can't take things off people
:23:03. > :23:05.without knowing them. You're absolutely right on that. The one
:23:05. > :23:10.thing I agree with Professor Mary Beard is the police must treat
:23:10. > :23:15.anyone suspected of crimes like this absolutely equally, whatever
:23:15. > :23:20.their colour. There must be no discrimination at all. I do agree
:23:20. > :23:24.with you - I'm sorry to disagree with the Minister of Religion in
:23:24. > :23:31.the front. I think he was verging on suggesting it was partly the
:23:31. > :23:35.girls' problems for how they dress. This is an evil crime, and we must
:23:35. > :23:40.focus on that, surely. I would like to defend the Minister. I was very
:23:40. > :23:44.interested in what he said. We have to ask why were these girls so
:23:44. > :23:48.vulnerable? Why were they so ready to surrender their innocence for a
:23:48. > :23:52.bag of crisps? Beefly. It wasn't a question of
:23:52. > :23:55.surrendering their innocence for a bag of crisp, but thank you for
:23:55. > :23:59.saying you want to defend me. I appreciate that. What I'm trying to
:23:59. > :24:05.get across, although I didn't do it in a very good way - is that there
:24:05. > :24:09.is a breakdown from the very start in the - I hate to say traditional
:24:09. > :24:15.family values, but the core concept of children being supported from a
:24:15. > :24:19.very early age these days to enjoy innocence. Absolutely. There is
:24:19. > :24:22.absolutely no excuse. There is no way in which these girls were in
:24:23. > :24:26.any way responsible for what happened. Any innocent can never be
:24:26. > :24:32.held responsible for the actions of an adult. Can I put another quote
:24:32. > :24:37.to you? Today the Chief Crown Prosecutor for north-west England -
:24:37. > :24:42.he blamed what he called "imported cultural baggage," and said of the
:24:42. > :24:47.people, "They think that women are some lesser being." Now, that is a
:24:47. > :24:51.sort of cultural and indeed - you could say an attack on members of
:24:51. > :24:56.the Asian community made by an Asian, clearly.
:24:56. > :25:01.It may have been made by an Asian person, but I don't believe that to
:25:01. > :25:05.be endemic within the entire Asian community anymore than I believe
:25:05. > :25:10.any white middle class male with a short haircut is a member of the
:25:10. > :25:15.BNP. It's a fallacy. However, there are certain negative elements
:25:15. > :25:20.within every society who treat different parts of society with
:25:20. > :25:25.less equality than should be... Brian? The bottom line is a 13-
:25:25. > :25:29.year-old girl who is raped and ends up getting pregnant by a 47-year-
:25:29. > :25:32.old man is a victim, a victim of a crime that the police should have
:25:32. > :25:35.been dealing with as soon as they had any intimation that this might
:25:35. > :25:39.have been a possibility. Certainly right. It may well be because of
:25:39. > :25:46.the instance that the lady referred to, that this has been ignored for
:25:46. > :25:51.too long. I worry - because the issues that you're referring to,
:25:51. > :25:55.sir, might apply in an ordinary family - if there is such a thing
:25:55. > :25:59.as an ordinary family arrangement, but actually some of these girls
:25:59. > :26:02.are the 47 girls, and the Chief Constable has said there might be
:26:02. > :26:06.others who haven't felt comfortable to come forward - were in care. And
:26:06. > :26:10.the shocking statistics in this country about girls in care -
:26:10. > :26:17.they're five times more likely to end up being a teen mum giving
:26:17. > :26:21.birth under the age of consent, 16. There are 65,000 of them. The
:26:21. > :26:25.heroes and heroines of this country are those that take children into
:26:25. > :26:29.foster care and adopt because often they're taking on children who have
:26:29. > :26:33.an awful lot of problems through the scars of difficult lives.
:26:33. > :26:37.entirely true of all the children in this case... A significant
:26:37. > :26:42.number. Some of whom were being - in homes with one child in,
:26:42. > :26:47.charging nearly a quarter of a million pounds a year to look after
:26:47. > :26:52.the child. It was terrible. There was one other element I didn't like
:26:52. > :26:55.about the story, which is one of the defendants' barristers said he
:26:55. > :26:59.believes his convicttions nothing to do with justice, but result from
:27:00. > :27:03.the faith of the defendants, and he flew at the court - this is the
:27:03. > :27:09.person who shouted obscenities at the judge, but he also shouted at
:27:09. > :27:13.the court that all the jury was white. Justice in this country must
:27:13. > :27:18.be colourblind. It must treat everybody absolutely equally, and
:27:18. > :27:23.that goes exactly to the point the lady at the back made about race.
:27:23. > :27:27.Yes, we must feel free to talk about race and immigration. Some
:27:27. > :27:31.racists do talk about these issue, but it doesn't make you racist to
:27:31. > :27:38.talk about race. But we need to do it on clear information, not just
:27:38. > :27:42.sound-off on one or two cases. Absolutely. I'll go to one or two...
:27:42. > :27:46.We're missing the point here. We're a developed country, and we're all
:27:47. > :27:51.educated. Why is race an issue? Why is my colour and his colour
:27:51. > :27:55.different? Why do we pick up on that? I thought we were educated. I
:27:55. > :28:00.thought we got past that part... Which is why... We need to open our
:28:00. > :28:05.eyes and realise that. The man at the back in the spectacles, at the
:28:05. > :28:08.very back. We're told this is the first ever prosecution of its kind,
:28:08. > :28:11.yet, we're also told it's widespread. I wonder if we need to
:28:11. > :28:15.take a different approach to crimes like this. Rather than talking
:28:15. > :28:19.about race, do we need to take a different approach to detect and
:28:19. > :28:24.prevent this crime to prevent the most vulnerable children in our
:28:24. > :28:28.society - perhaps set up a new task force to stop this crime. You're
:28:28. > :28:32.nodding. Do you agree? Yeah, to be honest, I think it's major issue.
:28:32. > :28:37.To go back to what the lady said earlier - there was a young girl
:28:37. > :28:40.who reported this in 2008 to a social worker. She was interviewed
:28:40. > :28:44.and classed as an incredible witness. Is that because she was in
:28:44. > :28:47.care or would it be - if it was your daughter or yours, would she
:28:47. > :28:50.be classed as a credible witness? Do you know what I mean? I think
:28:50. > :28:55.it's major issue in this case of child protection, and if I worked
:28:55. > :29:00.in a children's home, and there was some men - no matter what race or
:29:00. > :29:04.religion - outside the door picking up a child, I would not let the
:29:04. > :29:07.child leave the door. I think there is an issue of child protection. We
:29:07. > :29:11.need to change the child protection laws to say, no, I am looking after
:29:11. > :29:15.you. Your best interests are to stay in this house. I'll control
:29:15. > :29:19.that. As Caroline Spelman was saying, it's not as easy as that
:29:19. > :29:22.because you can't physically prevent people in these senses from
:29:22. > :29:28.going out in the evening. should be able to. You should have
:29:28. > :29:34.some kind of curfew. I want to say, it isn't easy. I'm raising
:29:34. > :29:39.teenagers, and they... If I were to foster a child, I can do that.
:29:39. > :29:43.think most parents would say it's pretty difficult to lock them up at
:29:43. > :29:49.7.00pm even if that was the humane thing to do. We need to teach them
:29:49. > :29:51.the right defences. One of the difficult things about
:29:51. > :29:59.detectability, most of the sexual exploitation of women, I'm sorry to
:29:59. > :30:07.say it, occurs at home in a domestic setting and it goes
:30:07. > :30:10.undetected, as Professor Mary Beard says. We need to really tackle and
:30:10. > :30:14.grip it. Theresa May announced the child protection centre is going to
:30:14. > :30:16.be strengthened becoming part of the national crime agency linking
:30:17. > :30:21.up agency so these poor people don't fall through the cracks.
:30:21. > :30:26.think we'll move on. Many of you sill have your hands up. Sorry
:30:26. > :30:36.about that. I know it's an issue clearly close to Oldham. You can
:30:36. > :30:42.
:30:42. > :30:49.join in tonight's debate if you're Let's take a question, please,
:30:49. > :30:54.quite different subject, from John Walsh, if you are here, please?
:30:54. > :30:59.Monsieur Hollande plans to tax and spend for growth as an alternative
:31:00. > :31:03.to austerity. Would it work for the The new French President wants to
:31:03. > :31:10.tax and spend for growth instead of austerity. Would it work for the
:31:10. > :31:16.United Kingdom? He's proposing tax at the top end of 75% and 20
:31:16. > :31:26.billion euros of extra spending I think. Matthew oak oak, you are the
:31:26. > :31:33.economist among us? -- Matthew Oakeshott, you are the economist
:31:33. > :31:36.among us? Nicolas Sarkozy fought the most nasty, xenophobic campaign
:31:36. > :31:40.to try to get the National Front votes and I think it's excellent
:31:40. > :31:43.there is a change in France and Francois Hollande I think will be a
:31:43. > :31:50.breath of fresh air. APPLAUSE
:31:50. > :31:54.We do, while I wouldn't go so far as he is on the tax, though the
:31:54. > :31:58.fact is that rich people don't pay their fair share of tax in this
:31:58. > :32:02.country. I certainly and Liberal Democrats would never have cut the
:32:02. > :32:10.top rate of tax from 50p to 45p in the budget and buzz that was done,
:32:10. > :32:14.that's I think really crystallised all the other worries there. We
:32:14. > :32:19.have got to a stage where pure austerity is not working. It's not
:32:19. > :32:29.working in Europe, it's not working in Britain. We are going to have to
:32:29. > :32:29.
:32:29. > :32:35.be much more vigorous on growth. Two things we'd do which very much,
:32:35. > :32:39.Francois Hollande's campaign has been very much focused, I mean the
:32:39. > :32:43.previous socialist candidate said on Sunday that the banks will obey
:32:43. > :32:49.instead of commanding. There will be some resistent but the power of
:32:49. > :32:53.money is still there. France is not going to accept the control of the
:32:53. > :32:56.banks that we've been much too feeble about and we also need to
:32:56. > :33:00.get much more capital spending going in this country and in the
:33:00. > :33:03.rest of Europe and in this country, the key is to get some really
:33:03. > :33:08.serious spending on housing, because that is where the jobs are,
:33:08. > :33:11.that's where the need is. 100,000 more houses a year will be half a
:33:11. > :33:15.million jobs and that's what's really essential and that can be
:33:15. > :33:20.done with private sector money, the big institutions are desperate to
:33:20. > :33:25.find a way to have safe long-term index-linked investments. I think
:33:25. > :33:29.we should work with Hollande, Merkel is far too restrictive and
:33:29. > :33:34.there is a real chance of getting serious growth in Europe again if
:33:34. > :33:38.we cooperate. APPLAUSE
:33:38. > :33:43.Caroline Spelman, there's a curious series of comments on this election.
:33:43. > :33:48.Our Chancellor, your Chancellor of the Exchequer, George Osborne, said
:33:48. > :33:53.of Francois Hollande "he's a centre-left politician who has not
:33:53. > :33:58.stood against austerity, he wants austerity, it's the Labour Party
:33:58. > :34:01.and Ed Balls who are actually against austerity." then I look a
:34:01. > :34:05.bit further down and Francois Hollande says "I don't want a
:34:05. > :34:09.Europe of austerity." what on earth is going on? The Tories who refuse
:34:09. > :34:14.to greet him when he came to London before the election now say he
:34:14. > :34:23.wants austerity. He says, I don't want austerity? Right. So where do
:34:23. > :34:30.we go? U-turn. A U-turn you think it is? Yes. First of all, thank you
:34:30. > :34:35.very much, we had a clue from David's tie, which is a blue frog.
:34:35. > :34:38.From a Tory Cabinet Minister, that's a racist remark. These are
:34:38. > :34:44.just frogs. I don't wear ties appropriate...
:34:44. > :34:48.This is a good question. Withdraw that remark! People pay so much
:34:48. > :34:51.attention to women's appearance, David, know what it feels like.
:34:51. > :34:55.flattered, it's the contagion you have got wrong. I'm glad this
:34:55. > :34:59.question's come up. Good, let's get on with it. I lived and worked in
:34:59. > :35:02.France for six years. As a nation, they are intensely pragmatics, so
:35:02. > :35:07.for all the rhetoric of the election, in practice, they'll be
:35:07. > :35:13.pragmatic in achieving their goal. Francois Hollande said they will
:35:13. > :35:17.balance their books by 2017, exactly the same objective that the
:35:17. > :35:21.coalition Government has set our nation. Now, they may do it by a
:35:21. > :35:26.combination of taxing and spening in their way. We have chosen to do
:35:27. > :35:30.it with a combination of thrift and export-led recovery and growth --
:35:30. > :35:34.spending in their way. All European countries in these difficult times
:35:34. > :35:38.face the challenge of how to get the economy growing, but I
:35:38. > :35:43.genuinely believe when the IMF said the UK economy will grow faster
:35:43. > :35:47.this year than the economies of France and Germany, you have to say
:35:47. > :35:53.the combination we have come to has given confidence to the wider world
:35:53. > :36:01.that we are on track to achieve it. We are not growing, we are just
:36:01. > :36:05.contracting less fast. The man in the tie there, whether frogged or
:36:05. > :36:11.not. Yes? I was just wondering, the gentleman says the Lib Dems are
:36:11. > :36:15.against the Budget and everything. No, I said we are against the
:36:15. > :36:18.cutting of the top rate. But it was cut and you are in a coalition and
:36:18. > :36:23.so therefore the Lib Dems must have agreed to it. So you can't just sit
:36:23. > :36:28.there and say that the Lib Dems do not agree to this when you are in a
:36:28. > :36:35.coalition Government and the Government's Budget cut the top
:36:35. > :36:38.rate of tax. I wouldn't have done it, I'm not in
:36:38. > :36:42.the Government. You haven't half got a cheek. I know you are in the
:36:42. > :36:45.House of Lords soyou don't get to vote on 237tial matters but all
:36:46. > :36:52.your Lib Dem colleagues walked in with the Conservatives to cut the
:36:52. > :36:56.rate from 50p to 45 so honestly, no-nonsense here tonight and
:36:56. > :37:02.Caroline, how out of touch to give us a glowing representation of the
:37:02. > :37:06.state of the British finances. the International Monetary Fund.
:37:06. > :37:13.Only three countries had woshes growth than us, that was Greece,
:37:13. > :37:17.Portugal and Spain and that's where you are spending us to go -- worse
:37:17. > :37:25.growth. It's less than 0%, we are in a double dip recession. That
:37:25. > :37:29.double dip recession was made on your doorstep by your policies. You
:37:29. > :37:39.will I say ALL SPEAK AT ONCE Where have you been in the last few
:37:39. > :37:42.years? A little bit of balance here. The Labour spokesman here...
:37:42. > :37:48.him answer. This Government, Caroline Spelman's Government,
:37:48. > :37:55.inherited the mother and father of a mess. Absolutely. You are trying
:37:55. > :37:58.to get out of it. And his mob basically agree with the
:37:58. > :38:04.Conservative Liberal Democrat strategy which is to cut the
:38:04. > :38:08.deficit. You just cut it by a tiny bit less. The idea that that would
:38:08. > :38:13.make a huge difference to growth - dream on. This week in the Queen's
:38:13. > :38:18.speech, we have not had a single policy for growth. Comen, that's
:38:18. > :38:24.not true. You are opposed to policies for growth. Even the...
:38:24. > :38:29.Even the Daily Telegraph's headline today was that there's nothing for
:38:29. > :38:33.growth in the Queen's speech. And there isn't. If you end up with
:38:33. > :38:37.more people out of work, we've got the highest level for many, many
:38:37. > :38:44.years, receiving benefits, not paying tax, you end up making the
:38:44. > :38:48.deficit and the debt not... I'll come to you in a moment. Not a
:38:48. > :38:52.single policy for growth from the man who's just been saying that
:38:52. > :38:55.people are having to bear the brunt of the banking crash. There is a
:38:55. > :38:58.very, very important policy for growth, which Labour were never
:38:58. > :39:04.able to touch, which is we are going to sort out the banks and
:39:04. > :39:07.make them safe. That's in the Queen's speech and something that
:39:07. > :39:11.Gordon Brown and Labour refused to do because Vince Cable's been
:39:11. > :39:16.leading that campaign for years and years and years and that's really,
:39:16. > :39:20.really important. Hang on. When you guys and Caroline, treating you as
:39:20. > :39:24.a guy temporarily. When you guys start to talk like this, I feel
:39:24. > :39:28.really, really worried. Are you including this guy as well? Yes,
:39:28. > :39:33.the whole lot of you. I know that I have not the foggiest clue what is
:39:33. > :39:37.going to get the world or Europe out of recession, I'm not supposed
:39:37. > :39:42.to know, I'm not a Professor of Economics, but a Professor of
:39:42. > :39:48.Classics. When I listen to you guys argue, what I see is that you don't
:39:48. > :39:52.have the foggiest clue actually either. What I do know and I
:39:52. > :39:56.suppose it's slightly to come down on Chris's side, not looking to
:39:56. > :40:02.Monsieur Hollande, he seems a rather sensible bloke, but how
:40:02. > :40:08.would I know? I look at Greece and 50% of the under 24-year-olds in
:40:08. > :40:11.Greece being unemployed and I think, if there is nothing on the
:40:11. > :40:17.intellectual political horizon apart from austerity, what on earth
:40:17. > :40:23.are young people going to do? What hope have they got? They're
:40:23. > :40:27.ignorant, but something has to be done, there has to be a plan B.
:40:27. > :40:32.have to look beyond Europe. You need to look to the emerging
:40:32. > :40:35.economies of India, China, Russia, Brazil. We were exporting a
:40:35. > :40:38.lamentable amount to those countries under the last Government.
:40:38. > :40:42.These are growing economies. I come from the West Midlands, we do
:40:42. > :40:50.manufacturing, that now knows it has a Government fully behind it.
:40:50. > :40:53.We are exporting massively our cars to China, India, thousands of jobs
:40:53. > :40:57.through Jaguar Land Rover, Rolls- Royce, Bentley Nissan, we'll earn
:40:57. > :41:01.our way in the world through export-led recovery. The question
:41:01. > :41:05.was about taxing and spending for growth. The man with spectacles?
:41:05. > :41:10.The coalition have spent two years blaming Labour. Labour have spent
:41:10. > :41:14.two years opposing everything the coalition have said, they'd oppose
:41:14. > :41:17.the opening of an envelope if they had the chance. Isn't it time you
:41:17. > :41:25.got together and started solving the problem instead of arguing
:41:25. > :41:29.constantly? It's bad enough with two parties, try getting three!
:41:29. > :41:34.The man on the gangway? Andrew George said this morning that
:41:34. > :41:41.legislating for jobs is like legislating for the sun to shine.
:41:41. > :41:44.It doesn't work and what you have to do is get it out of the way and
:41:45. > :41:47.in things like the Queen's speech getting rid of loads of regulations
:41:47. > :41:55.which stop businesses working and creating jobs, that's the problem.
:41:55. > :42:00.The man in the second row here? Thank you, David. It's not only our
:42:00. > :42:05.land. Look at the Greece election and Italian elections and local
:42:05. > :42:11.elections so austerity is totally rejected. It's high time Cameron
:42:11. > :42:14.gets out of his so-called bull- headed determination and pig-headed
:42:14. > :42:18.arrogance. It's about time he learned that austerity is not
:42:18. > :42:22.working, we are already in a double dip recession for Gods' sake. We
:42:22. > :42:27.have to move forward, otherwise we are finished. APPLAUSE
:42:27. > :42:30.All three of them want to answer you. Can I answer the first
:42:30. > :42:34.question which I thought was a very good one which is, why aren't you
:42:34. > :42:40.all working together to sort out this desperate crisis. Let me say,
:42:40. > :42:43.it was pretty bloody painful for a lot of us to cooperate with the
:42:43. > :42:46.Conservatives in order to sort out the economy and make it grow. I
:42:46. > :42:51.must say to you so far, it's not working and nothing's more
:42:51. > :42:54.important than getting the economy to grow. If we don't get it to grow
:42:54. > :42:57.quite soon, we may have to consider whether all three parties need to
:42:57. > :43:03.come together. That's the logic of what we could do, but let's really
:43:03. > :43:06.have a serious go, but frankly we can't sit here for another year
:43:07. > :43:11.with the economy getting worse because we won't get the deficit
:43:11. > :43:16.down if it doesn't grow. To answer the original question about Mr
:43:16. > :43:19.Hollande and also to answer Mary Beard's demand for plan B, it's a
:43:19. > :43:25.clear reason and solution to the problem and that, I'm afraid to say,
:43:25. > :43:29.is to get rid of the euro. That is the reason why Greece is
:43:29. > :43:33.uncompetitive, that is the reason you have got 50% youth unemployment
:43:33. > :43:40.is Spain, that is if reason why we are returning to a barter economy
:43:40. > :43:43.in Athens and the eurocrats like your friends, Matthew Oakeshott,
:43:43. > :43:47.they are prepared for the sake of this dogma to drive European
:43:47. > :43:52.economies absolutely to the wall. Get rid of the euro and then Mr
:43:52. > :44:02.Hollande can reflate France and Greece can recover and we can go
:44:02. > :44:06.
:44:06. > :44:10.back to a stable and prosperous I don't really know, like Mrs Beard,
:44:11. > :44:16.how to run the economy for the country, but in terms of running
:44:16. > :44:21.the economy for our own houses, when we get in trouble, we cut back.
:44:21. > :44:26.We go us a steer on ourselves so we're not paying excessive
:44:26. > :44:31.interest... He's right. You say he's right. I want to hear from our
:44:31. > :44:34.audience. The lady behind you in the spectacles. I work in the not-
:44:34. > :44:38.for-profit advice sector. We're seeing a massive increase in the
:44:38. > :44:41.number of people coming through the door for help with their debt
:44:41. > :44:46.problems, unemployment problems, housing problems. People are really
:44:46. > :44:51.struggling at the moment. I want to know what the Government are going
:44:51. > :44:57.to do about it. At the same time Government are cutting funding to
:44:57. > :45:00.support people to help them for their debts. Where's the money for
:45:00. > :45:05.the not-for-profit debt centre? gentleman in the second row has
:45:05. > :45:11.said we have had two years of it. It ain't working. The three
:45:11. > :45:15.questions linked together - you want austerity - if it's your
:45:15. > :45:19.household budget and you're having to borrow a quarter of what it
:45:19. > :45:23.takes to run your household, you would be worried, and you would
:45:23. > :45:28.need to introduce measures of thrift. Let's call it thrift, then,
:45:28. > :45:34.because thrift is a virtue, and thrift needs to be part of the
:45:34. > :45:39.solution to our problems. The Prime Minister called it efficiency. You
:45:39. > :45:42.might call it austerity. I call it efficiency he, said. They're
:45:42. > :45:45.slightly different thing, but they complement each other. Thrift means
:45:45. > :45:52.you live within your means. We have to earn our way as a country. That
:45:52. > :45:54.means we have to make savings as well as to grow. One word about
:45:54. > :45:59.growth in - PROBLEM WITH SOUND
:45:59. > :46:03.Did you not hear what my friend Matthew said about tackling the
:46:03. > :46:07.banks? I would say the employment - enterprise employment and
:46:07. > :46:12.regulatory reform bill is there to cut the red tape. I'm sorry. I want
:46:12. > :46:16.to answer your point about thrift because if you are a person who
:46:16. > :46:19.relies for your job on your car to get to work because there is no
:46:19. > :46:23.public transport or it's so expensive or whatever, and your car
:46:23. > :46:29.is broken or whatever, you might choose to borrow to buy a new car
:46:29. > :46:32.so as to keep on earning, and that's precisely the kind of thing
:46:32. > :46:36.- I think sometimes you have you have to do with an economy. I would
:46:36. > :46:40.say, yes, we should have a VAT cut at the moment. That would help with
:46:40. > :46:44.fuel bills. It should be temporary. We should have a tax cut for
:46:44. > :46:48.businesses that employ extra people - take people on at the moment, and
:46:48. > :46:53.we should do something abouting you people under the age of 24 to give
:46:53. > :46:58.them jobs because the real danger is they'll be completely lost for a
:46:58. > :47:05.whole generation. Let's keep to the topic. Jonathan Ford has a question
:47:05. > :47:15.pertinent to what has been going on. Yes? Cameron and Clegg were about
:47:15. > :47:15.
:47:15. > :47:22.this week - will this -- renewed their vows this week. Will it reach
:47:22. > :47:28.- You sigh, madam. Will this marriage reach its fifth
:47:28. > :47:33.anniversary? It's certainly not a marriage. It's a five-year business
:47:33. > :47:36.contract, a fixed term, to fix the economy. I can tell you we might be
:47:36. > :47:38.together in the office and despite Caroline Spelman calling me her
:47:38. > :47:44.friend, we're certainly not together in the bedroom.
:47:44. > :47:47.LAUGHTER This is painful. Which is painful
:47:47. > :47:51.and difficult? Well, being in with the Conservatives, not obviously
:47:51. > :47:55.being friendly with Caroline. But the key thing is we've got to get
:47:55. > :48:00.the economy growing, and if it doesn't grow, we won't get the
:48:00. > :48:03.deficit down, and it's not just either of our two parties that is
:48:03. > :48:09.finished - the country. That is essential. I'm afraid we've got to
:48:09. > :48:17.be a lot bolder, and the Treasury, I am afraid, is not being tough
:48:17. > :48:19.enough. Sir Matthew Pinsent, you're -- Oakesshott - you're a peer and a
:48:19. > :48:26.backbench peer, but do you think Liberal Democrats will start to
:48:26. > :48:30.pull out of this, Vince Cable and others? No. If what you say is true
:48:30. > :48:34.there will come a moment when they say, we resign. I negotiate all day
:48:34. > :48:38.in my day job. Everything is a negotiation. You obviously don't
:48:38. > :48:41.show all of your cards. It is a card. We have a coalition agreement,
:48:41. > :48:45.and the coalition agreement is a very good one. I wish we'd stick to
:48:45. > :48:48.it. One of the things we said in there - we would consider having
:48:49. > :48:53.net lending targets for the nationalised banks. The Royal Bank
:48:53. > :48:56.of Scotland, the biggest lender to small business in this country - is
:48:56. > :48:59.totally failing to do its job. If we could actually get them to lend,
:49:00. > :49:04.that would really help. The fact is we have an agreement, and we're
:49:04. > :49:08.going to stick to it. Do you think the marriage will last? No, it
:49:08. > :49:12.won't. Matthew is being terribly high minded and suggesting it's all
:49:12. > :49:16.to do with policy and whether we can get the nation back on its feet.
:49:16. > :49:21.It's going to be surely when push comes to shove about the Liberal
:49:21. > :49:25.Democrat sense of survival, and when I was confronted last week -
:49:25. > :49:30.wherever it was - with deciding who to vote for in my local election, I
:49:30. > :49:34.am afraid I could not bring myself to do what I'd often done in the
:49:34. > :49:38.past and that is to vote Lib Dem because I thought, I am not voting
:49:38. > :49:42.for the Tories. Now, that was replicated in thousands and
:49:42. > :49:48.thousands of households all over the country, and when the next
:49:48. > :49:52.election starts to become near, it's going to be a question of...
:49:53. > :49:59.We still hung on to the council in Cambridge. I know because I was
:49:59. > :50:02.knocking up in your ward... No, you didn't. You lost control - won
:50:02. > :50:05.Independent. Can I say I hope they stay together because I think the
:50:05. > :50:08.alternative would destroy Britain. I think Chris Bryant is looking
:50:08. > :50:13.extremely smug at the moment, and anybody can look smug when they're
:50:13. > :50:16.not in power and having to make the awful decisions that the other two
:50:16. > :50:20.parties are making at the moment. You're looking smug.
:50:20. > :50:22.APPLAUSE Do you think it will last, was the
:50:22. > :50:31.question, apart from the comment on your appearance.
:50:31. > :50:34.Yes. Yes, I think the Government will survive. I think it will go
:50:34. > :50:37.all the way to 2015. Actually, I have never thought that the Liberal
:50:37. > :50:41.Democrats would walk away because why on earth would they when
:50:41. > :50:45.they're having the poll ratings that they're having at the moment?
:50:45. > :50:48.But to be honest, I think the bigger issue for me is that if they
:50:48. > :50:51.carry on with the style of doing politics at the moment, I think
:50:51. > :50:54.there will be a real problem for this country. I don't think people
:50:55. > :50:58.like the way the budget was put together, and the fact that little
:50:58. > :51:03.bits and pieces were, you know - one side was claiming that they'd
:51:03. > :51:08.got this bit and the other side was claiming another side - it feels -
:51:08. > :51:12.I mean, God knows, when we were in power, we had battles inside the
:51:12. > :51:15.Government, but the... The battle was stopped. Inside the
:51:15. > :51:19.Conservative Party I noticed last week - people are already calling
:51:19. > :51:23.for the Prime Minister to resign or one member of the Conservative
:51:23. > :51:26.Party who says she's got another 45 to join her and all the rest of it.
:51:26. > :51:29.But to be honest, I don't think voters care about any of that. The
:51:29. > :51:33.only thing they care about at the moment is fuel bills, gas bills,
:51:33. > :51:37.whether they've got a job, whether there is going to be a job for them
:51:37. > :51:41.there in 18 months' time. I just think this week with the Queens'
:51:41. > :51:45.Speech, which was an opportunity really to talk to the nation - it
:51:45. > :51:51.was a completely lost opportunity. It didn't deal with anything that
:51:51. > :51:56.really matters to ordinary voters... I don't agree with that.
:51:56. > :52:00.Really? The first line in the Queens' Speech said that her
:52:00. > :52:03.Ministers' first priority is to get the deficit reduction down. They've
:52:03. > :52:06.got to because the interest payments every year are bigger than
:52:06. > :52:10.the defence budget. It's �43 billion a year every year while we
:52:10. > :52:14.have that deficit. What could we do with that money? Sorry, sir, but
:52:14. > :52:17.you can't get the deficit down unless you have people in jobs
:52:17. > :52:20.paying tax, and you can't get people in jobs unless you have
:52:20. > :52:24.growth in the economy, and that's single bit that's missing.
:52:24. > :52:29.APPLAUSE Explain how you - he has made a
:52:29. > :52:32.point many people make. How do you get the tax if people are out of
:52:32. > :52:36.work and they're getting benefits - what's your answer? So this
:52:36. > :52:40.gentleman is right. The purpose of the marriage - I have been married
:52:40. > :52:44.for 25 years this year, and when you go through tough situations
:52:44. > :52:49.together, it makes you stronger and makes you closer together as you
:52:49. > :52:54.take the difficult decisions together, and we're not deflected -
:52:54. > :52:59.this is what we said in the Queens' Speech - we'll not be deflected
:52:59. > :53:02.from fixing the nation's finances. That's our top priority, but in the
:53:02. > :53:07.Queens' Speech, we recognise fairness and opportunity must be
:53:07. > :53:11.addressed. Chris, you must find it in your heart to recognise in the
:53:11. > :53:13.Queens' Speech to help parents who have children with special
:53:13. > :53:17.educational needs. Who can say there isn't room for the Government
:53:17. > :53:21.to be able to do important things like that help with... We're asking
:53:21. > :53:24.about the coalition, whether the coalition will survive. That's the
:53:24. > :53:30.point. The coalition will survive I believe because we're fixed on the
:53:30. > :53:33.purpose of sorting out the nation's finances and making sure that we
:53:33. > :53:38.address what we hear people want us to address in terms of fairness and
:53:38. > :53:41.opportunity. Hold on, Chris. The woman there. I work in urban
:53:41. > :53:44.regeneration. I think it's really important that the one thing I am
:53:44. > :53:49.getting across from all of you is you want economic prosperity and
:53:49. > :53:51.growth. We're in Oldham. It's a northern town having loads of
:53:51. > :53:56.difficulties with manufacturing decline. Unemployment is really
:53:56. > :54:00.high. What advice would you give for the people running the Council
:54:00. > :54:03.of Oldham? Should they concentrate on spending cuts with regard to
:54:03. > :54:08.local services or should they put their efforts into prosperity and
:54:08. > :54:13.growth? Hold on. Hold on. Can you just come to the end? Should they
:54:13. > :54:16.put their efforts into prosperity and growth for Oldham as a town and
:54:16. > :54:20.regeneration or should they be concentrating on reducing the
:54:20. > :54:24.spending of services and cuts? I think you would agree with me
:54:24. > :54:28.without prosperity and growth, we don't have much of a future anyway
:54:28. > :54:31.as a northern town. I don't know about Oldham. I am not going to
:54:31. > :54:35.make a specific comment. It's not specific to only a northern town.
:54:35. > :54:39.The way you framed that question, you said, are we going to have
:54:39. > :54:42.spending cuts, or are we going to have prosperity and growth? As if
:54:42. > :54:45.that is the option facing the country. Unfortunately, that isn't
:54:45. > :54:48.the option facing the country. By the way, everybody around this
:54:48. > :54:52.table and in the room seems to think we're in a period of
:54:52. > :54:57.austerity. Let's consider one amazing fact. Since the foundation
:54:57. > :55:04.of the Bank of England in 1690-odd to 2010, the date of the last
:55:04. > :55:10.election, our national debt went from 0 to 800 billion. Under George
:55:10. > :55:14.Osborne's so-called austerity plans, it's going to go from �800 billion
:55:14. > :55:18.to �1,600. Our national debt is going to double - even under the
:55:18. > :55:23.so-called austerity, we're not living - if we're going to get to
:55:23. > :55:28.prosperity and growth, we have to go through a very heavy period, a
:55:28. > :55:31.difficult period, of severe and long-lived retrenchment I am afraid.
:55:31. > :55:36.The question I was asking you was, they're in a position where they're
:55:36. > :55:39.having to reduce spending cuts, but what advice would you give them in
:55:39. > :55:43.regards to how do they deal with prosperity and growth? What action
:55:43. > :55:46.should Tay take when they've got a very, very difficult job to do?
:55:46. > :55:49.Caroline Spelman. There is two really good things they have done.
:55:49. > :55:53.So Oldham Council availed itself of the money that the Chancellor made
:55:53. > :55:56.available to freeze council tax here in Oldham two years running,
:55:56. > :56:00.so that was a good thing to do. That helps hardworking families
:56:00. > :56:05.with an important bill. That's a practical measure. The other thing
:56:05. > :56:09.they've done is avail themselves of the apprenticeship scheme, and
:56:09. > :56:12.2,500 young people in Oldham this year will benefit from an
:56:12. > :56:18.apprenticeship scheme because we must help the young people get a
:56:18. > :56:23.start on the working ladder. When you say "will benefit" - you mean
:56:23. > :56:28.there are 2,500 apprenticeships... There are. We hear of people trying
:56:28. > :56:32.to get apprenticeships where their children can't get a job.
:56:32. > :56:37.understand that. Here in Oldham, 2,500 young people will benefit
:56:37. > :56:42.from the opportunity to get that start on their working life. Chris
:56:42. > :56:47.Bryant. The difficult for authoritys is they're having cuts
:56:47. > :56:51.year on year. I'm sorry, Caroline Spelman, but I would say to you if
:56:51. > :56:54.you were serious about helping ordinary working families, the
:56:54. > :56:58.first clause of the Queens' Speech was "My Government will undo the
:56:58. > :57:01.budget from March this year" because it was unfair. It gave more
:57:01. > :57:04.money to millionaires than anybody else. We're coming to our end. I
:57:04. > :57:12.want to check one thing with you. Peter Hayes says in two years the
:57:12. > :57:18.national debt is going to double. Five years - five or six. 800 to
:57:18. > :57:23.1,600. Are you telling the truth the Ministers said, it's not a
:57:23. > :57:28.figure I recognise. It's going up. Come on. You know the... Well, I
:57:28. > :57:35.don't know. He made this claim which sounded lavish. Is he right?
:57:35. > :57:39.What I know is it's going to go an awful lot faster if we don't get
:57:39. > :57:45.growth going. We leave it there. Our time will be out if we don't
:57:45. > :57:50.stop. We're going to be in Cardiff next week. We're going to have the
:57:50. > :58:00.astrophysicist, former guitarist of Queen Brian May on the panel. Next