:00:13. > :00:22.Tonight we are in the old coal exchange building in Cardiff.
:00:22. > :00:25.Welcome to Question Time. On our panel here, the former Welsh
:00:25. > :00:30.Secretary who's just stepped down from the Shadow Cabinet, Peter Hain.
:00:30. > :00:34.From the coalition, the Conservative Minister for Disabled
:00:34. > :00:40.People, Maria Miller. Daily Mail columnist and former editor of the
:00:40. > :00:44.Sun, Kelvin MacKenzie. Newly elected leader of Plaid Cymru,
:00:44. > :00:54.Leanne Wood and the author and comedy script writer, John
:00:54. > :00:57.
:00:57. > :01:01.O'Farrell. Thank you very much. Our first question from Chris Roberts,
:01:01. > :01:03.please. To you agree with the Home Secretary when she says police
:01:03. > :01:07.officers should stop complaining about being picked on?
:01:07. > :01:11.The Home Secretary of course who was booed and hissed and all the
:01:12. > :01:15.rest of it at the Police Federation this week and she said they should
:01:15. > :01:20.stop complaining. Was she right, Peter Hain? Of course she wasn't
:01:20. > :01:23.right. They are cutting the number of police officers by 16,000. 6,000
:01:23. > :01:28.of them on the frontline from emergency services, from traffic
:01:28. > :01:32.duty, neighbourhood policing. I'm not surprised that you've got
:01:32. > :01:36.30,000 police officers marching outside Westminster complaining
:01:36. > :01:41.about the Government's cuts. This was a Government that was elected
:01:41. > :01:44.on a platform of law and order and what are they doing? Depriving the
:01:44. > :01:47.local communities of the police officer who is can fight crime and,
:01:47. > :01:50.not surprisingly, crime is starting to creep up. Isn't she saying they
:01:50. > :01:53.are not being cut any more than anybody else, everybody in the
:01:53. > :01:58.public sector is being cut by this amount? Actually, police officers
:01:58. > :02:01.are suffering a particularly hard cut, but the question is, what are
:02:01. > :02:05.your priorities, are they allowing bankers to get massive bonuses or
:02:05. > :02:09.allowing police officers to do the job for which they were recruited
:02:09. > :02:13.instead of them being cut back virtually in entire number of
:02:13. > :02:17.police officers we recruited under Labour are being cut back under
:02:17. > :02:23.this Tory-led Government and it's outrageous, in my view.
:02:23. > :02:26.APPLAUSE Maria Miller? Well, it's clear that
:02:27. > :02:31.we need to make sure that after the coalition Government came into
:02:31. > :02:34.power we had to make some very difficult decisions and those
:02:34. > :02:38.decisions will include looking at policing in this country. I think
:02:38. > :02:44.all of us want to see more police visible in our communities working
:02:44. > :02:46.hard to cut crime. I think the most important thing we've done is scrap
:02:46. > :02:50.the target-led culture that the Labour Party had put in place and
:02:50. > :02:53.actually said there's one target we want all police to deliver on,
:02:53. > :02:58.that's to cut crime. Instead of having just one in ten police out
:02:58. > :03:01.on our streets at any time, to actually get more police out on our
:03:01. > :03:06.streets. That's what we want to see and I think we can achieve the
:03:07. > :03:11.sorts of efficiencies that we need to to make sure that... How many
:03:11. > :03:15.fewer police officers are there now? It's not about the number.
:03:15. > :03:21.not? It's about how we make sure the police deliver the sort of
:03:21. > :03:25.crime reduction we need. So it doesn't matter if you are cut by
:03:25. > :03:30.5,000 as Labour claims? It matters to get more out on the streets and
:03:30. > :03:34.at the moment we have one in ten out fighting crime and the rest are
:03:34. > :03:38.stuck in back offices. John O'Farrell, you fought Theresa May
:03:38. > :03:42.didn't you? I stood against her, those were the shoes I was trying
:03:42. > :03:44.to step into. This has been a fascinating thing to on si, the
:03:44. > :03:51.police marching, which is interesting enough in itself. I
:03:51. > :03:54.wish the students got it together and kettled them actually. I wonder
:03:54. > :03:58.what the police estimate of the march would be as well. I suppose
:03:58. > :04:02.it would be half of what it actually was. This is a serious
:04:02. > :04:06.problem when a Conservative Home Secretary is heckled by the police
:04:06. > :04:09.and booed by the police. I thought the protest was dignified and very
:04:09. > :04:13.effective when I saw it. The question is, or shouldn't they
:04:13. > :04:16.suffer the same cuts as all other public sector workers. The answer
:04:16. > :04:20.is no, because we shouldn't be cutting the public sector, this is
:04:20. > :04:23.part of austerity. There are no yellow crimes or did you see this
:04:23. > :04:28.incident in the city of London, where are the yellow signs about
:04:28. > :04:31.the crimes in the City of London saying, your pension was stolen,
:04:31. > :04:34.the huge bonuses were paid to people who shouldn't have got them.
:04:34. > :04:37.The crimes are happening in the City of London and they are not
:04:37. > :04:42.being investigated and the police are being cut in our communities
:04:42. > :04:45.and it's the poor who suffer when crime goes up and it's the people
:04:45. > :04:48.most vulnerable in our communities who suffer when crime goes up so
:04:49. > :04:52.Theresa May shouldn't be cutting police, sheshed be keeping them at
:04:52. > :04:56.the levels Labour set them at -- she should be keeping them at the
:04:56. > :04:59.levels Labour set them at. APPLAUSE
:04:59. > :05:03.Man in the second row at the back? I would like to suggest it's an
:05:03. > :05:07.issue about how we look at how we budget do we budget on efficiency
:05:07. > :05:13.and trying to get the best out of the service that we can afford or
:05:13. > :05:16.just throw money at a problem? you, Sir? I think Mr Hain forgets
:05:16. > :05:21.that the reason why all cuts are happening is because of the mess
:05:21. > :05:24.that his crowd left us in. I don't accept that.
:05:24. > :05:28.APPLAUSE We had an international banking crisis, you cannot lay it
:05:28. > :05:33.at Labour's door that we recruited too many police officers and
:05:33. > :05:36.therefore the entire banking system around the world collapsed.
:05:36. > :05:40.APPLAUSE You? What annoys public sector
:05:40. > :05:45.workers is that we see our jobs going, but I don't see any MP jobs
:05:45. > :05:49.going. That's what really annoys us. Kelvin MacKenzie? Under the
:05:49. > :05:54.boundary changes, you will see MP jobs going. I would like to divide
:05:54. > :05:58.this question into two. I hated the way that the Home Secretary was
:05:58. > :06:03.treated by the Police Federation. I have been a massive supporter of
:06:03. > :06:07.the police all my life, but this woman stood up, she was invited to
:06:07. > :06:11.come along and the police should have shown more courtesy towards
:06:11. > :06:16.her. It's a form of bullying and I felt very, very uncomfortable at
:06:16. > :06:20.seeing the way she was treated. They should have been treated with
:06:20. > :06:24.respect. Now I'll deal with the issue. It's quite simple. We're
:06:24. > :06:27.skint, we haven't got any money, state workers are going to have to
:06:27. > :06:33.take it on the chin in exactly the same way as anybody else. The
:06:33. > :06:38.police, the firemen, the nurses, Local Government workers, Town Hall,
:06:38. > :06:42.everybody has to take some pain. The Police Federation actually
:06:42. > :06:50.don't like some of the aspects of the Windsor Report which looked at
:06:50. > :06:53.bringing in graduates in at police inspector level. There are a whole
:06:53. > :06:56.series of issues the Police Federation don't like but they
:06:56. > :07:01.shouldn't forget common courtesies and when you treat a woman Home
:07:01. > :07:08.Secretary in that manner, you lose your argument and I feel very, very
:07:08. > :07:16.bad towards the police for the first time in my life.
:07:16. > :07:19.APPLAUSE The man in the second row from the
:07:19. > :07:27.back? Did Kelvin MacKenzie always treat women with the utmost respect
:07:27. > :07:32.when he was at the Sun? Are you saying she was treated perfectly
:07:32. > :07:37.properly in your view? Not at all, I was checking on whether he was
:07:37. > :07:46.being hypocritical. The woman on the right? I'm just wondering what
:07:46. > :07:51.pain that we'll have to suffer as part of Theresa May's policies to
:07:51. > :07:56.have the police cuts so radical, as most of us are law-abiding citizens,
:07:56. > :08:00.you know, what consequences will there be for us as a result of
:08:00. > :08:05.these cuts? I think crime is bound to get worse.
:08:05. > :08:10.The police budgets can't take a 20% hit without there being a wider
:08:10. > :08:12.impact in the community then. I impact in the community then. I
:08:12. > :08:16.think the point that you made here about the unfairness of the
:08:16. > :08:21.situation, we are not all in this together, we public sector workers
:08:21. > :08:25.are being asked to pay for the mistakes of the bankers which they
:08:25. > :08:29.didn't cause. Do you know, this fact that rich people are getting
:08:29. > :08:33.richer, the Times Rich List shows that this week the people who're
:08:33. > :08:38.earning the most have earned even more, so they are not taking the
:08:38. > :08:42.hit, so we are not all in this together at all are we? You know
:08:42. > :08:48.Labour wanted to cut the police by 12%, the cost of the policing, are
:08:48. > :08:52.you in favour of that, or do you think that's also...? I wouldn't
:08:52. > :08:55.say... Are you against Labour and Tory? Yes, I am against Labour and
:08:55. > :08:59.Tory, but I wouldn't say there are no savings to be made. I know that
:08:59. > :09:02.in other public sector organisations, for example, by
:09:02. > :09:08.working with Trade Unionists you can identify savings that could be
:09:08. > :09:11.made, particularly at the top where bonuses are being paid to the top
:09:12. > :09:16.managers and so on. But what is happening, and I think the thing
:09:16. > :09:20.that people feel that is really, really unfair, is that people on
:09:20. > :09:25.the bottom rungs of the ladder are being asked to bear the brunt of
:09:25. > :09:29.the cuts that have to be made. The people at the top are still
:09:29. > :09:34.offshoring their tax accounts, avoiding tax and so on. So it's
:09:34. > :09:36.that unfairness and injustice that people can't stomach I think.
:09:36. > :09:41.APPLAUSE Maria Miller, do you want to pick
:09:41. > :09:45.up the point that was made that the police ought to be protected of all
:09:45. > :09:48.the Public Services, that they deserve not to be cut as much as
:09:48. > :09:52.everybody else? Police clearly provide our community with a really
:09:52. > :09:55.unique service and we've got to make sure that they are paid in the
:09:55. > :10:00.right way. But there will still remain, even after the changes that
:10:00. > :10:03.are put forward, the best paid emergency services. What I want to
:10:03. > :10:07.see is not cuts to the frontline, I actually want to see more of the
:10:07. > :10:12.staff that we've got there, more of the officers we've got there on the
:10:12. > :10:17.frontline out in our community working to cut crime rather than
:10:17. > :10:21.having what happened under Labour, an inexorable increase in the
:10:21. > :10:24.amount of bureaucracy. Simply cutting out the 72 forms somebody
:10:24. > :10:28.has to fill in before they are arrested and taken into custody
:10:28. > :10:31.really make a difference to the amount of policing we can have in
:10:31. > :10:36.this country. Thousands of police officers are being pulled off the
:10:36. > :10:40.frontline, anybody knows that. police officers in the audience
:10:40. > :10:44.here? I'm a retired police officer. What do you make of Kelvin
:10:44. > :10:48.MacKenzie? I think he was 100% right on that point. When I joined
:10:48. > :10:52.in 197, the respect for, if you like, authority, it was a different
:10:52. > :10:59.service then, it was drilled in from the word go. Maybe that's
:10:59. > :11:01.drifted over the 30 years. The Home Secretary would always be respected.
:11:01. > :11:05.Senior officers would always be addressed with the correct terms.
:11:05. > :11:08.There has been a drift on that. But that's not the point I wanted to
:11:08. > :11:13.make. I just wanted to get over effectively that these cuts, if
:11:13. > :11:16.they are on the frontline, they will be a disaster and a threat to
:11:16. > :11:20.society itself. I think the police pay and conditions do need
:11:20. > :11:25.reviewing, but rather like the Health Service, it's about the fat
:11:25. > :11:31.cats at the top, ACPO, business development units being put into
:11:31. > :11:35.forces, people on fat salaries, big pensions, high powered vehicles and
:11:35. > :11:40.yet the street, the police officer parading on a Saturday night, two,
:11:40. > :11:44.three or four going out facing goodness knows what, rather like
:11:44. > :11:51.nurses on wards waiting what's to come in when all the people earning
:11:51. > :11:54.the big bucks are sat well away from the problem. We really do have
:11:54. > :12:02.to address the funds on the frontline.
:12:02. > :12:07.Thank you very much. APPLAUSE
:12:07. > :12:11.Always management isn't it, management, management, management.
:12:11. > :12:17.Another question from Alan Fowler, please? David Cameron yesterday
:12:17. > :12:25.told Europe to make up its mind. What choice has he given UK voters
:12:25. > :12:30.- do we stay or not? Kelvin MacKenzie? Well, actually,
:12:30. > :12:32.Cameron missed a great opportunity when he stood in the general
:12:32. > :12:39.election because he could have said actually I'm going to give you a
:12:39. > :12:43.vote on whether you stay in Europe or not himself and I tip my hat to
:12:43. > :12:48.Jon Cruddas, the Labour Cabinet adviser, I suppose, who is now
:12:48. > :12:52.saying that in the next manifesto for Labour they will include that
:12:52. > :13:01.opportunity. Seeing Cameron right now basically saying make up your
:13:01. > :13:05.mind and all the rest of it, I feel that he hasn't shown leadership in
:13:05. > :13:10.the European debate and therefore basically hasn't got a right to say
:13:10. > :13:13.one way or the other. The truth about the matter is that the Greeks
:13:13. > :13:20.themselves are going to decide the outcome of all this because they
:13:20. > :13:24.are now withdrawing their money from the banks. A run on the banks
:13:24. > :13:29.will definitely mean that they will be exiting from the euro. We know
:13:29. > :13:33.ourselves from the Northern Rock performance that in fact we had to
:13:33. > :13:37.nationalise it to effectively stop a run on the banks. For the graecks,
:13:37. > :13:41.I'm afraid it looks as though they are exiting -- Greeks. I'm not
:13:41. > :13:45.satisfied with Cameron since he should have in the first instance
:13:45. > :13:47.given us the opportunity to say whether we wanted to be part of
:13:47. > :13:51.this euroland or not. It was a great political opportunity he
:13:51. > :14:00.missed and I'm looking forward to Mr Cruddas and Labour giving us
:14:00. > :14:03.Be in Labour's manifesto at the next election, that there should be
:14:03. > :14:07.a referendum? Jon Cruddas is your campaign co-ordinator? I think the
:14:07. > :14:11.way things are going in Britain, I think people in Britain probably
:14:11. > :14:16.will want to make up their mind whether to stay in Europe or not. I
:14:16. > :14:20.would, if there were to be a referendum and Labour were to call
:14:20. > :14:24.one, and I don't think we should be frightened of a referendum, we put
:14:24. > :14:28.the case for Wales, for Britain, being in Europe. The great
:14:28. > :14:32.advantage that's brought to the whole of Europe. We forget it was
:14:32. > :14:37.the European Union that's brought peace and democracy and stability
:14:37. > :14:42.to whole parts of Europe that used to fight each other. We had more
:14:42. > :14:45.wars on the European Continent than any other part of the world. That's
:14:45. > :14:50.what the European Union was brought into being to achieve. I think lots
:14:50. > :14:55.of mistakes have been made, but the fundamental question, should we be
:14:55. > :15:01.in or out of Europe, I would argue for staying in. On the current
:15:01. > :15:09.problems... Before you leave, that do you want Ed Miliband to endorse
:15:09. > :15:15.the call for a referendum? Kelvin wants to be out of Europe. No, I
:15:15. > :15:21.would like to see the people have a vote on it. It's the biggest issue
:15:21. > :15:27.our country has faced in 30-40 years and we cannot seem to be able
:15:27. > :15:32.to have a vote. I don't think we should be frightened of having a
:15:32. > :15:36.vote. Labour has had more referenda on having a vote, including in
:15:36. > :15:42.Wales on a devolution. But do you want the same austerity that's
:15:42. > :15:45.being rammed down the throats of people in Britain spreading like
:15:45. > :15:49.wildfire throughout Europe, and it's the same right-wing austerity
:15:49. > :15:58.programmes that a lot of people in Greece are rejecting, because it
:15:58. > :16:02.will never work. it is the same failed 1930s policies that Cameron
:16:02. > :16:06.and Clegg are trying out in Britain and delivering the policies that
:16:06. > :16:16.are being followed by the European leadership. That's why Europe is so
:16:16. > :16:16.
:16:16. > :16:20.unpopular at the moment. APPLAUSE You've just left a shadow Cabinet
:16:20. > :16:26.and Jon Cruddas has just come in to work on this. Are you saying Ed
:16:26. > :16:33.Miliband is moving towards offering a referendum? First of all there
:16:33. > :16:37.should not be a referendum now or for the foreseeable future. What
:16:37. > :16:40.would the referendum be on? If there is to be a referendum in the
:16:40. > :16:44.future, and the party will debate this, Ed Balls has indicated it
:16:44. > :16:49.might be something we go for in the future, it should be on whether you
:16:49. > :16:54.are in or out. Not on the current policies which are dangerous and
:16:54. > :16:59.devastating and totally wrong for Europe, just as they are in Britain.
:16:59. > :17:03.Britain is a democracy, so sure it is the British people who should
:17:03. > :17:07.decide whether we stay or go. Miller, do you agree with that?
:17:07. > :17:10.think at the moment Peter is right - Europe is in crisis and we need
:17:10. > :17:13.to make sure that we are doing everything that we can to try and
:17:13. > :17:17.bring stability into Europe. I think these questions are for
:17:17. > :17:21.another time. I think the reason why Britain is staying out of a lot
:17:21. > :17:26.of that crisis exactly because we have taken the decision to pay down
:17:26. > :17:33.our deficit and now we've paid down a quarter of Labour's deficit. And
:17:33. > :17:38.we were starting to see some good signs coming through, in terms, and
:17:38. > :17:42.I think we are starting to see good signs in unemployment. What we need
:17:42. > :17:47.to do at this time is make sure Greece sticks to its bail-out
:17:47. > :17:51.programme and make sure we get some stability back. Why? Because it is
:17:51. > :17:56.really important to the future of Britain. We have a trading rip with
:17:56. > :18:00.Europe that's incredibly important. If it doesn't come back to Europe
:18:00. > :18:04.it is going to overshadow the recovery of this country. Sure the
:18:04. > :18:10.Greeks have a right to vote over whether or not they have austerity
:18:10. > :18:14.in their own country, the same way we have a right to vote on other
:18:14. > :18:18.issues? They've got an election coming up. Presumably that's what
:18:18. > :18:22.they'll do. What's clear is across Europe, across Wales, people have
:18:22. > :18:26.voted against austerity. I think that's a very clear response. I
:18:26. > :18:30.think politicianings need to take note of that. If you don't take
:18:30. > :18:35.note of that, I think ordinary people will take action and fight
:18:35. > :18:38.against the austerity cuts. There is no reason to make any cuts.
:18:38. > :18:43.There's �123 billion in this country uncollected and avoided and
:18:43. > :18:47.evaded in tax. We don't need to make any cuts. We could invest in
:18:47. > :18:55.jobs and in the future of this country thoofplt could be happening
:18:55. > :18:59.all across Europe. -- And that could be happening all across
:18:59. > :19:02.Europe. I have to take Mr Hain to task a little about the European
:19:02. > :19:08.Union. It wasn't set up like the United Nations under the auspices
:19:08. > :19:13.of peace in Europe. It was an economic -driven experiment, driven
:19:13. > :19:17.by France and Germany. It has failed. We've quite correctly
:19:17. > :19:23.stayed out of it to the extent that we have done. It is for them to
:19:23. > :19:28.pick up the pieces I think. We are still in the single market. Leanne
:19:28. > :19:33.Wood? It seems clear to me that people across Europe now are voting
:19:33. > :19:37.against austerity measures. People are at breaking point. Where they
:19:37. > :19:42.right to? People, when they are at breaking point, they can take no
:19:42. > :19:48.more. In Greece they've taken attacks on their conditions as
:19:48. > :19:52.workers. At some point you can't make ends meet. And yet Germany has
:19:52. > :19:58.austerity and growth. Germany is in a different position. You see
:19:58. > :20:03.what's happened in France with the election of President Hollande. I
:20:03. > :20:08.think there is hope there. His programme is interesting. It is
:20:08. > :20:12.similar to Plaid Cymru's programme actually. That will disappoint him!
:20:12. > :20:17.David Cameron says it is close to him, Plaid Cymru and the Tories
:20:17. > :20:22.meet. A centralist economic policy and an SME-led jobs creation
:20:22. > :20:25.programme. And also he's just announced a 30% pay cut to his
:20:25. > :20:31.Ministers, which I think is quite good as well. And that shows that
:20:31. > :20:38.we are all in it together doesn't it when he takes action like that?
:20:38. > :20:48.Are you for 75% income tax rate? think people who are rich should
:20:48. > :20:53.pay more into the pot than they are paying now. John O'Farrell? I think
:20:53. > :21:01.the idea of a 75% tax rate for the superrich is actually a very good
:21:01. > :21:10.idea. The top 1,000 earners in the Sunday Times Rich List are �150
:21:10. > :21:16.billion richer since the crash. If they were taxed at the 28% rate of
:21:16. > :21:22.inheritance tax, that would pay 75% off deficit off in one fell swoop.
:21:22. > :21:26.Can you imagine all the jobs that would be saved if we did that. I
:21:26. > :21:33.think David Cameron was deeply unimpress niv Prime Minister's
:21:33. > :21:41.Questions. He says they need to make up or break up. He sounds like
:21:41. > :21:45.a caller in a late night phone-in, "Sort it out!" he should be talking
:21:45. > :21:49.about the possibility of what could be done. I read a convincing
:21:49. > :21:55.argument that it shouldn't be Greece coming out of the euro but
:21:55. > :21:59.Germany, I don't understand the complexities of that too much but I
:21:59. > :22:03.do understand that austerity is a way of saving bad debts for bankers.
:22:03. > :22:10.Unemployment in Greece and Spain is 50% for young people keeping those
:22:10. > :22:14.peoplidele not a way to get growth -- peoplele idle is not a way to
:22:14. > :22:19.get growth. We should turn our backs on austerity just as Obama
:22:19. > :22:28.has, as France has, and I hope the people in Wales were thinking of
:22:28. > :22:33.when they voted Labour. APPLAUSE There is one other solution which
:22:33. > :22:43.we'll come to in a second. If you are on Twitter tonight, you can
:22:43. > :22:48.
:22:48. > :22:53.A question, please, from Catherine Smith. In the light of Mervyn
:22:53. > :23:03.King's comments this week about its negative effect on GDP, should the
:23:03. > :23:03.
:23:03. > :23:09.Jubilee bank holiday be cans snld According to the Governor of the --
:23:09. > :23:11.be cancelled? It is in line with a remark that we should all be
:23:12. > :23:16.working harder made by the Conservative Government, and that's
:23:16. > :23:24.the way to get growth. Leanne Wood, what do you feel about cancelling
:23:24. > :23:30.the Jubilee bank holiday? Well, I'm in favour of bank holidays. Ah.
:23:30. > :23:35.think, I'm not going to be a party pooper. I won't personal I will be
:23:35. > :23:38.celebrating the Jubilee. I'm a republican and I think the monarchy
:23:38. > :23:42.is an antiquated institution, but people will want to celebrate. I
:23:42. > :23:47.recognise that, and I hope that people who will be having street
:23:48. > :23:54.parties on the day have a good time. So no, I'm not in favour of
:23:54. > :24:00.cancelling bank holidays. In the UK we are among the -- we have among
:24:00. > :24:05.the fewest bank holidays in the whole of Europe and my party's been
:24:05. > :24:09.campaigning for some time for St David's Day to be turned into a
:24:09. > :24:13.bank holiday. APPLAUSE What about the argument that the way out of
:24:13. > :24:22.recession and back to growth is for us all to work harder, do you
:24:22. > :24:28.sympathise with? No, not at all. Most people are doing a number of
:24:28. > :24:34.jobs in some cases to make ends meet. The times 100 Rich List could
:24:34. > :24:38.be doing a lot more to contribute to that pot. Maria Miller? It is
:24:38. > :24:41.right that we celebrate in full the Queen's contribution to this
:24:42. > :24:46.country. It was Governor of the Bank of England right to point out
:24:46. > :24:52.that growth will be slowed down as a result of it? I think he is wrong
:24:52. > :24:55.to say we should not have a holiday to mark this amazing reign. That's
:24:55. > :24:59.right thing to do. What the Governor of the Bank of England is
:24:59. > :25:02.really driving at is we can create the conditions for recovery in this
:25:02. > :25:07.country but we've got to make sure that businesses are working hard to
:25:07. > :25:11.capitalise on that. I think we have started to see some signs of the
:25:11. > :25:16.tough decisions starting to pay dividends for us. We've seen
:25:16. > :25:19.unemployment rates starting to show signs in the right direction. We
:25:19. > :25:23.have seen the fact that a quarter of the deficit that we were left by
:25:23. > :25:28.Labour is being paid down. And we've actually saw last year record
:25:28. > :25:32.numbers of new businesses being set up in this country. But this is not
:25:32. > :25:37.a time to start to do what other panellists have been talking about
:25:37. > :25:39.today and start to take on more debt. Now is the time to
:25:40. > :25:43.consolidate on that. We've got credibility with the money markets.
:25:43. > :25:48.Our interest rates are now some of the lowest in Europe. That means
:25:48. > :25:53.everybody in this room doesn't have to worry about their mortgages
:25:53. > :25:58.going through the roof, but what they can look at is a Government
:25:58. > :26:03.that has that credibility there to capitalise on this. Eric Pickles
:26:03. > :26:08.saying we have to work harder and William Hague saying we have to
:26:08. > :26:12.work harder. Are we not working hard enough in the eyes of the
:26:12. > :26:15.coalition Government? As a country we will be successful when we
:26:15. > :26:18.market the best products and services that we can. I know the
:26:18. > :26:23.companies that I visit that are successful are already doing that.
:26:23. > :26:26.I think what we need to have are move companies that are taking that
:26:26. > :26:30.opportunity, and certainly by having the low interest rates that
:26:30. > :26:35.we've got at the moment we are more likely to be able to achieve that
:26:35. > :26:42.success in the future. That's why we need to stick to our policies.
:26:42. > :26:49.We need more jobs and you are closing Remploy factories. We need
:26:49. > :26:53.more jobs. APPLAUSE Mervyn King's comments are indicative of the fact
:26:53. > :26:58.we don't have an economic strategy for growth. We've talked a lot
:26:58. > :27:02.about austerity. We know a the majority of the cuts have not hit
:27:02. > :27:05.us. I haven't seen anything in the Queen's Speech or day-to-day that
:27:05. > :27:11.the Conservative Government in London is looking to growth. It
:27:11. > :27:15.seems there is going to be organic growth from somewhere, from the
:27:15. > :27:21.private sector. I'm sure there are things that the Government could be
:27:21. > :27:26.doing but are not doing. Such as infrastructure projects in Wales.
:27:26. > :27:30.Premier projects that we could look at to drive growth rather than
:27:30. > :27:35.clinging to austerity. We are absolutely looking at the sorts of
:27:35. > :27:44.infrastructure projects that you are talking about. The
:27:44. > :27:52.electification of the money line from Cardiff to London. Currently
:27:52. > :27:59.the public sector employs about 29% of the Welsh workforce. That's a
:27:59. > :28:08.mammoth number. How big do they want it to become, 40%, 50%? The
:28:08. > :28:16.solution to good growth is supply- side reforms, lower income tax.
:28:16. > :28:21.APPLAUSE This is amazing. Wait! This is the first Conservative I've
:28:21. > :28:31.ever heard in a Question Time audience. That's rubbish. Peter
:28:31. > :28:33.
:28:33. > :28:38.I fundamentally disagree with you. You cannot reduce the deficit by
:28:38. > :28:44.cutting and cutting and cutting and introducing more austerity on
:28:44. > :28:49.Europe. It means people lose jobs, they draw benefits instead of
:28:49. > :28:52.spending. In the private sector, by the way, this cannot just be public
:28:52. > :28:55.sector job-led. When we get to the original question, what this
:28:56. > :29:00.Government started off doing is blaming Labour for the entire
:29:00. > :29:06.global financial crisis, then they blamed the weather, now they're
:29:06. > :29:12.blaming the Queen. Frankly, none of this is true. The fault of the
:29:12. > :29:17.current double-dip recession, which is Tory /Lib Dem made, not Labour-
:29:17. > :29:21.made, we are not in power, is the relentless cuts at imposing
:29:21. > :29:26.austerity and we want investment for growth and jobs including in
:29:26. > :29:30.the Severn barrage which will be entirely privately invested.
:29:30. > :29:35.Kelvin MacKenzie? Well, the point that was made on the working harder,
:29:35. > :29:39.which I wholly accept, is that he was seeking business people to jump
:29:40. > :29:43.on planes, more regularly to go to the Asian markets, the American
:29:43. > :29:46.markets. The truth about the matter is that actually, if you want to
:29:46. > :29:51.make your money in this country, looking to Europe as a businessman
:29:51. > :29:57.or businesswoman is not a good idea at the moment and actually, if you
:29:57. > :30:01.look at the - I happened to look at it the other day - if you look at
:30:01. > :30:06.the number of business people flying to North America is up 15%
:30:06. > :30:09.in March in BA and 6% up in April. That's where the money is. The
:30:09. > :30:13.free-wheeling, free booting economies, no welfare, by the way
:30:14. > :30:18.in China and no welfare, no benefits in India, right, stealing,
:30:18. > :30:22.well not stealing all our markets, taking all our markets. And if we
:30:22. > :30:26.don't take advantage of this, then we will go down the pan, we'll end
:30:26. > :30:31.up like Greece. So, actually, I'm in favour of it. And the truth
:30:31. > :30:37.about the matter is, we've got the Diamond Jubilee coming up, we've
:30:37. > :30:41.got the euro 2012, sorry about that, and we have after that the Olympics.
:30:42. > :30:45.Now you can be absolutely sure, look at your colleagues, your
:30:45. > :30:48.factories and everything, there'll be lots of reasons why Tom's not in
:30:48. > :30:52.today, oh, the Government have said don't bother to come to work, the
:30:52. > :30:56.trains are all packed, you know. We can have all this nonsense and I'm
:30:56. > :31:00.very fearful. What does matter is earning money and having a job
:31:00. > :31:04.right now. And I'm fearful that with this combination we are going
:31:04. > :31:12.to have another rather poor quarter and so I think Mervyn King is
:31:12. > :31:15.correct and I do believe that Hague, Pickles &co are correct to urge
:31:15. > :31:18.business people, middle and upper middle business leaders to get out
:31:18. > :31:21.and get fighting. They work pretty hard at the moment but everybody's
:31:21. > :31:27.going to have to work harder because nobody's going to have
:31:27. > :31:29.their pensions paid for if we don't get harder, right. We need private
:31:29. > :31:34.industry, dramatically clever businesswomen and men to make our
:31:34. > :31:37.country great, because right now, we are broke. The only way we can
:31:37. > :31:47.stop talking about austerity is by encouraging business in our country
:31:47. > :31:47.
:31:47. > :31:52.to get out and win markets. APPLAUSE
:31:52. > :31:57.I wonder if Kelvin MacKenzie got rabies he'd stop foaming at the
:31:57. > :32:02.mouth! The idea that working hard, people not working hard enough is
:32:03. > :32:06.the problem to Britain's economic situation is utterly bizarre and
:32:06. > :32:10.insulting to all the people who are working very hard. People want jobs,
:32:10. > :32:14.they want to be in full employment and not part-time employment and
:32:14. > :32:18.the employment figures that Maria referred to was an increase in
:32:18. > :32:22.part-time jobs in the most. People want full-time jobs, they want to
:32:23. > :32:29.bring home a proper wage. I'm chair of Governors at Lambeth Academy in
:32:29. > :32:32.South London. The idea that the teachers could work any harder is
:32:32. > :32:36.completely fictitious, the idea that nurses and police officers
:32:36. > :32:39.could work harder is insulting. If people want a Bank Holiday to
:32:39. > :32:41.celebrate a national occasion, whatever you think of it, that
:32:41. > :32:45.should be granted and the implication is always it's the
:32:45. > :32:48.people at the bottom who are to blame for the problems, it's all
:32:48. > :32:55.part of the same message and it's your fault this country's in a mess
:32:55. > :32:59.- it's not, it's the falt fault of the people in the City of London.
:32:59. > :33:03.He was not talking about the people at the bottom, he was talking about
:33:03. > :33:06.middle and upper management to get on the planes and win orders to
:33:06. > :33:10.supply work for the rest of us. He was not talking about the people at
:33:10. > :33:13.the bottom and managements are to blame for things that go wrong in
:33:13. > :33:16.our country. The workforce want to do well. Take the car industry for
:33:16. > :33:20.instance, brilliant car industry, right, workforce were fine, I can
:33:20. > :33:25.remember when we used to have British cars, why was it no good?
:33:25. > :33:29.Because they were run by British managements. Now they are run by
:33:29. > :33:32.Japanese managements and American managements and the like and
:33:32. > :33:35.suddenly we have a brilliant car industry. It's not the workforce,
:33:35. > :33:40.but the managements that are to blame.
:33:40. > :33:44.We'll move on. Viv Huskings, a question from you, please Drug and
:33:44. > :33:47.alcohol deaths in Wales have increased by 31% in ten years.
:33:47. > :33:54.Isn't it about time we follow Scotland's minimum price of
:33:54. > :33:58.alcohol? Scotland has introduced a minimum price of 50p a unit of
:33:58. > :34:03.alcohol which apparently puts up the price of the cheapest vodka by
:34:03. > :34:08.about �4 a bottle. That seems to be the main effect of it, and a bit on
:34:08. > :34:12.beer and things. Should the same thing happen in Wales and indeed in
:34:12. > :34:15.England? Maria Miller? We have announced that's what we'd like to
:34:15. > :34:20.do in England. I think the more important thing is, we've got to
:34:20. > :34:24.make sure that people are aware of the real health impacts of binge
:34:24. > :34:28.drinking. Nowadays, there are too many people who seem to not be
:34:28. > :34:31.aware of the long-term health consequences that can result from
:34:31. > :34:35.drinking too much, even just too much social drinking. I think we
:34:35. > :34:39.have to make sure that people are really aware of it. Why - because
:34:40. > :34:45.of the consequences to our public Health Service and, when you go
:34:45. > :34:50.into an A&E on a Friday or Saturday night, the number of people who're
:34:50. > :34:54.in there as a result of an injury or a problem that's related to
:34:54. > :34:58.alcohol, really shows to me that this is putting a huge burden on
:34:58. > :35:02.the Health Service as well. would it have gone up 30% in ten
:35:02. > :35:08.years? I think that probably we are recording it more accurately now,
:35:08. > :35:12.but also people perhaps have more acts is. This is why looking at the
:35:12. > :35:15.pricing of alcohol is is important but that's only one step in a much
:35:15. > :35:19.bigger programme to make sure people are aware of the really
:35:19. > :35:22.powerful effect that these sorts of addictions can have on people's
:35:22. > :35:26.lives. Indeed, the sort of effect they have on people's ability to
:35:26. > :35:29.get into employment as well. said you proposed it. When are you
:35:29. > :35:33.going to do it in England and Wales? That's something we are
:35:33. > :35:38.looking at at the moment. But when do you think it will be decided?
:35:38. > :35:41.soon as we have got something which is going to work for all parts of
:35:41. > :35:44.the country. Peter Hain, do you think it's the right, fair and
:35:44. > :35:54.proper thing to do? It's useful to look at what is happening in
:35:54. > :35:55.
:35:55. > :36:01.Scotland and the results. If it's as clear cut as increasing the
:36:01. > :36:06.price. Looking at kids at home getting drunk at home then going
:36:06. > :36:09.clubbing or to the pub. In the end, what you need to do - I don't think
:36:09. > :36:13.you will solve the problems unless you encourage people to be aware,
:36:13. > :36:17.take control of their own health - that is in the end the solution to
:36:17. > :36:21.these problems. I don't think that the minimum price level will solve
:36:21. > :36:26.it on its own. I'll make one other point. The advantage of devolution
:36:26. > :36:30.is, you can look at what happens elsewhere in Britain. The older
:36:30. > :36:33.person's commissioner in Wales first, we had the Children's
:36:33. > :36:37.Commissioner first, free bus passes for pensioners first. Those
:36:37. > :36:41.policies were followed elsewhere in Britain. If the Scottish case works
:36:41. > :36:46.well, then I think there's a case for doing it here.
:36:46. > :36:50.Leanne Wood? Well, there is a chronic alcohol problem in Scotland.
:36:50. > :36:55.It isn't as bad, fortunately in Wales. Something had to be done to
:36:55. > :37:00.try and address that. The SNP Government would have preferred to
:37:00. > :37:05.have addressed this by using excise duty and powers over taxation. That
:37:05. > :37:08.would have been a better way to deal with it I think.
:37:08. > :37:12.But I think what we've got to recognise is, that as people's
:37:12. > :37:15.economic problems get worse, the likelihood of these statistics
:37:15. > :37:20.getting worse grows and there needs to be some sort of plan and
:37:20. > :37:23.strategy for dealing with that. I know that I worked as a Probation
:37:23. > :37:26.Officer... People are poorer, are you saying you will put up the
:37:26. > :37:30.price of alcohol and it will help solve the problem, you say their
:37:30. > :37:35.economic problems get worse? economic problems get worse, people
:37:35. > :37:40.are more likely to develop addictive behaviours and I'm aware
:37:40. > :37:43.of that because of my experience as a Probation Officer being being
:37:43. > :37:47.elected to the National Assembly. Problems in the valleys that were
:37:47. > :37:52.caused after the pit closure programme in the '80s, there was a
:37:53. > :37:56.layer of people who ended up dependent on heroin and there was a
:37:56. > :38:00.serious problem and there still is with that. There is always a danger
:38:00. > :38:04.that when economic times are difficult, people will seek to
:38:04. > :38:08.escape those problems. Do you favour using the price mechanism as
:38:08. > :38:12.a which of preventing that happening? Yes, that's one way of
:38:12. > :38:16.doing it. I think you need to look wider than that as well. It's one
:38:16. > :38:20.way you would approve of? Yes, alcohol is one problem, other
:38:20. > :38:24.substances are problems as well and there needs to be a plan and
:38:24. > :38:27.strategy for dealing with what will be a growing problem I think.
:38:27. > :38:29.APPLAUSE Surely unless there is a massive
:38:30. > :38:34.cultural shift this won't change because there will be people who'll
:38:34. > :38:38.find other ways to get around the expensive praises. I went to
:38:38. > :38:41.Estonia a couple of years ago and the Finnish people were getting the
:38:41. > :38:46.ferry to Estonia to take bottles and cans over to the home country.
:38:46. > :38:49.People will find ways to get around this. What worries me is if other
:38:49. > :38:53.substances become cheaper and people opt to use those instead.
:38:53. > :38:57.That's a concern I think. You, Sir?
:38:57. > :39:01.Let's look at the bare facts here. As an 18-year-old, we wait for the
:39:01. > :39:05.weekends, we party and alcohol is a part of our lifestyle. Raising the
:39:05. > :39:08.price isn't going to solve that because we are going to save up
:39:08. > :39:13.more and pay for that. I think solving the problem is with the
:39:13. > :39:18.cultural side of it. The more we think of what we do with it, how we
:39:19. > :39:25.use it and how it affects our future. Education in alcohol is how
:39:25. > :39:30.we solve this problem. APPLAUSE I'm someone who likes a
:39:30. > :39:34.drink but I've got to the age where I feel a bit old for binge drinking.
:39:35. > :39:39.If I had a bottle of tequila, I would want to go to sleep. It
:39:39. > :39:42.doesn't take much alcohol to make you feel pleasuribly relaxed. A
:39:42. > :39:46.couple of pints should be sufficient for anyone. The idea
:39:46. > :39:49.that this whole cultural thing that the gentleman referred to about
:39:49. > :39:53.front loading and getting really drunk before you go to a party or
:39:53. > :39:59.the pub is something we do have to attack. I am in favour of hiking
:39:59. > :40:03.the prices in the smarbgts and the places where alcohol is too cheap.
:40:03. > :40:08.-- supermarkets. It breaks my heart to see pubs closing around Britain,
:40:08. > :40:13.50 a week I think we are losing. I went past a pub the other day, now
:40:13. > :40:17.it's a McDonald's, my father would turn in his grave if he saw that.
:40:17. > :40:21.In a pub, your drinking is monitored, the landlord says, you
:40:21. > :40:28.have had enough, it's a social thing, it's not this thing about
:40:28. > :40:32.stacking up the supermarket trolley. Our pubs are closing partly because
:40:32. > :40:36.duties are laid massively on them and in supermarkets they're cheaper.
:40:36. > :40:40.The duty in pubs has gone up 30% in the last three years, no wonder
:40:41. > :40:46.they are closing. I would like to see responsible drinking in pubs
:40:46. > :40:51.and ramp up the price in supermarkets so people couldn't get
:40:51. > :40:54.the cut prices. You have to go to the pub, you can't drink at home?
:40:54. > :40:59.just think the difference, as John was saying, is far too great.
:40:59. > :41:04.The man with the spectacles? Do you think this policy could lead to a
:41:04. > :41:14.lot of illicit alcohol being sold and the detrimental health to the
:41:14. > :41:17.
:41:17. > :41:19.people? Alcohol made at home? made some home-made whisky once as
:41:19. > :41:22.a student. I think they should be concentrating on the health issues.
:41:22. > :41:28.I don't know whether you have seen the numbers about throat cancers
:41:28. > :41:36.and the lake which have simply gone off the dial because of excessive
:41:36. > :41:39.drinking. I'm not sure that they could price - my manner in the
:41:39. > :41:44.South East and London - I'm not sure that they could price alcohol
:41:44. > :41:50.to the point where it would actually stop people from
:41:50. > :41:56.continuing to drink excessively. On that basis, the only other way to
:41:56. > :42:02.lack at this is a massive health drive sponsored by the Government
:42:02. > :42:06.in that respect -- look at this. If you see the way they've been
:42:06. > :42:10.successfully done in relation to cigarette smoking, I believe people
:42:10. > :42:12.would be bright enough to work out, I don't want to have throat cancer
:42:12. > :42:15.or cirrhosis of the liver or I don't want to have this. The
:42:15. > :42:22.parents could lane on the children. I mean, the truth about the matter
:42:22. > :42:26.is that the kids actually, because of guilty parents, my little Tommy,
:42:26. > :42:30.giving them money so they can go out and get plastered on Friday and
:42:30. > :42:33.Saturday night, they've got to take responsibility as well. Young
:42:33. > :42:40.people have always been drinking but what you are starting to see
:42:40. > :42:45.now is that it's not ending at 24 or 26, it's going on to the 30s,
:42:45. > :42:50.40s and 50s. Education is the answer and I don't believe you
:42:50. > :42:53.could price drink heavily enough in most of the country to stop
:42:53. > :42:58.excessive drinking. That's my reality.
:42:58. > :43:04.I want to go on to get another couple of questions in if I can. I
:43:04. > :43:09.would like to two to this one from Andrew Curry, please?
:43:09. > :43:13.Are relations between the media and politicians becoming inappropriate?
:43:13. > :43:18.Becoming inappropriate? This is of course in the light of the lier.
:43:18. > :43:23.Peter Hain, relations between politicians and the media, are they
:43:23. > :43:25.inappropriate -- the Leveson Inquiry? The phone hacking and the
:43:25. > :43:29.disgraceful behaviour of some newspapers that did that has
:43:29. > :43:33.brought this into sharp focus. I think probably that was the case,
:43:33. > :43:38.but actually much more fundamentally, I think there is a
:43:38. > :43:43.real problem about the Westminster bubble, if you like, politicians
:43:43. > :43:47.and journalists in the same bubble operating in their close little
:43:47. > :43:52.world chasing each other around, a lot of spin on both sides and it's
:43:52. > :43:56.completely turning off most people from politics and democracy, in my
:43:56. > :44:01.view. I think that's the real problem. What turns them off
:44:02. > :44:05.exactly? Because everything's about a personality angle, a bit of spin
:44:05. > :44:08.here, talking a story on. People want intelligent debate, like we
:44:08. > :44:14.get on Question Time, to be fair, where people put their views, then
:44:14. > :44:18.the audience or voters make up their minds. Often the din of spin
:44:18. > :44:22.andageles and new takes on everything means people turn off
:44:22. > :44:26.politics. That's the real problem that we have created in Westminster,
:44:26. > :44:31.the media and politicians together. If we don't solve it, it's a really
:44:31. > :44:36.serious future for democracy,? My view. Do you think the newspapers
:44:36. > :44:46.are no longer providing a check and balance system on their behaviour,
:44:46. > :44:53.
:44:53. > :45:03.Have you been listening to Leveson? I find it very addictive. For
:45:03. > :45:03.
:45:03. > :45:10.somebody who is supposed to be self employed I've had it on all this
:45:10. > :45:17.week. I wish I did Rebekah Brooks's mobile number, because I would have
:45:17. > :45:21.texted her LOL. LAUGHTER The fact that Cameron was texting her and
:45:21. > :45:26.they were borrowing each other's horses, and it is across the
:45:26. > :45:31.parties. I'm a member of the Labour Party and it embarrasses me deeply
:45:31. > :45:36.that Tony Blair was so close to Rupert Murdoch. We have to have
:45:36. > :45:46.polices who are not in thrall to editors of tab loids or any
:45:46. > :45:54.newspapers. This whole thing has been galling and rather depressing.
:45:54. > :46:03.An expose of where the real power is. They were so terrified of the
:46:03. > :46:10.Mail and the Sun turning against Labour, and they were never Labour
:46:10. > :46:16.papers anyway. I take that barks as Labour was once -- I take that back,
:46:16. > :46:19.as Labour was once in favour of the Sun. The idea that you should be
:46:19. > :46:25.courting those people rather than winning debates on programmes like
:46:25. > :46:33.Newsnight and on the doorstep, that you should spend your time chasing
:46:33. > :46:41.Kelvin MacKenzie or Rebekah Brooks, I hope we can move on and have a
:46:41. > :46:46.new chapter of more open politics in this country. APPLAUSE
:46:46. > :46:52.I do hope they call Kelvin as a character witness if Rebekah Brooks
:46:52. > :46:59.goes to trial. I've given my undertaking in that area. The
:46:59. > :47:09.original question was are rulingss appropriate between politicians and
:47:09. > :47:10.
:47:10. > :47:15.the media? -- relations. Radio is the media, television is the media,
:47:15. > :47:18.Twitter is the media. Print, which has the focus on it right now, is
:47:18. > :47:23.getting smaller, but carries politics more deeply, especially
:47:23. > :47:29.from the middle and upper end of it. And it is interesting.
:47:29. > :47:34.Personalities, unfortunate, are the most interesting. You're much more
:47:34. > :47:39.interested in somebody's family life and what comes forward from
:47:39. > :47:44.that. And newspapers help create that atmosphere to get to know them.
:47:44. > :47:48.That's all it is. And you have the choice. You don't have to buy these
:47:48. > :47:54.papers. You don't have to turn on the twifplgts you don't have to do
:47:54. > :47:58.any of -- the television sets. You don't have to do any of this. When
:47:58. > :48:03.the Leveson report comes out they'll beef up the Press
:48:03. > :48:07.Complaints Commission, and I don't see this will make a great change.
:48:07. > :48:12.Cabinet Ministers will still brief political editors. Political
:48:12. > :48:18.editors will still write page one and page two stories about their
:48:18. > :48:22.friends in a friendly way and their enemies in an unfriendly way. We
:48:22. > :48:27.are just going through a choppy period and we will come through it,
:48:27. > :48:31.in the same way as MPs have come through their period with
:48:31. > :48:36.experiences, so will journalists. Is it appropriate for prime
:48:36. > :48:40.ministers to be texting journalists, and we don't know what the texts
:48:40. > :48:46.were about, because they weren't released by News International. You
:48:46. > :48:56.had a bet that Cameron will be gone by November, at 10-1, is that true?
:48:56. > :48:56.
:48:56. > :49:01.Yes. Why only 10-1. 100-1. I had 10-1 that Cameron would be gone by
:49:01. > :49:06.the end of November. I believed, either rightly or wrongly, that
:49:06. > :49:12.more could come out through Leveson over texts and inappropriate e-
:49:12. > :49:18.mails in that period and that if they did what would happen was that
:49:18. > :49:25.Cameron would become a lame duck Prime Minister. And the Tories, and
:49:25. > :49:32.I admire them for it works crack him out. Tell us what was going to
:49:32. > :49:38.come out in the. I don't know what's going to come out. I think
:49:38. > :49:43.if, I said to Jeremy Hunt once that I was absolutely appalled that the
:49:44. > :49:50.Tories had clapped Tony Blair when he sat down after ten years of
:49:50. > :49:55.being Prime Minister of our country. I said I was astonished and asked
:49:55. > :50:05.why do you do it? Hunt said you don't understand, Blair was our
:50:05. > :50:07.
:50:07. > :50:14.Clinton. The Tories loved what Blair did. And he did assiduously
:50:14. > :50:20.arse licked the Murdoch press. Cameron and Co on seeing the way
:50:20. > :50:24.this was done said, "We must do the same" and the music stopped, with
:50:24. > :50:31.Leveson. Maria Miller, do you want to come to the defence of Cameron
:50:31. > :50:37.and the relationship between him and Murdoch? Does he say LOL to
:50:37. > :50:42.you? No. I think that it is right to Shea that all parties got too
:50:42. > :50:50.close to the media and the action we've taken by establishing the
:50:50. > :50:54.Leveson qir I have long overdue. -- inquiry is long overdue. Everybody
:50:54. > :51:00.who is looking at political parties, whether it is the mainstream
:51:00. > :51:03.parties represented here tonight, for marginal parties, the media has
:51:03. > :51:07.an important role to play in informing the didn't. My concern is
:51:07. > :51:11.that the level of trust in the media has been so undermined by all
:51:11. > :51:15.of the processs that have gone on in recent years that really now we
:51:15. > :51:22.should be turning our minds to how we rebuild that trust. I do believe
:51:22. > :51:25.the media has a critical role to play in our society. As a
:51:25. > :51:31.journalism student, it is something that is worrying to me whether at
:51:31. > :51:34.the end of my degree there'll be such a stigma between politicians
:51:34. > :51:39.and journalists that maybe the ultimate and important news isn't
:51:39. > :51:43.going to be portrayed so easily, because there is going to be such a
:51:43. > :51:51.large barrier between the relationships. What do you expect?
:51:51. > :51:57.I agree that it's too close at the moment, that the texting and so on
:51:57. > :52:03.is too much, but there still has to be an easy way so that you can get
:52:03. > :52:08.the truth rather than having to go through the back door and therefore
:52:08. > :52:16.it is not easiest truth coming out first. Leanne Wood, as leader of
:52:16. > :52:22.Plaid Cymru, who are you courting and texting? I hope not using LOL
:52:22. > :52:27.in the wrong sense. I can tell you that I'm not working closely with
:52:27. > :52:33.Murdoch. You said all political parties have been involved in this.
:52:34. > :52:39.Plaid Cymru hasn't. You are right to point out that Labour did it too.
:52:39. > :52:42.I wonder if that's because in 1997 Murdoch looked at Tony Blair and
:52:42. > :52:47.thought that he wasn't that different from the Conservatives,
:52:47. > :52:53.so he was somebody that he could work with. But I think the Leveson
:52:53. > :52:58.Inquiry... Do you think the Tories would have introduced devolution or
:52:58. > :53:04.a minimum wage in of course they wouldn't. Labour were very
:53:04. > :53:14.different from the Tories. You are very relaxed about rich people.
:53:14. > :53:15.
:53:15. > :53:22.brought in tax credits, took millions out of poverty. The Tories,
:53:22. > :53:27.Te d Heath wanted devolution for Scotland. As print media is
:53:27. > :53:37.becoming smaller and the Murdoch media is no longer available, is
:53:37. > :53:40.
:53:40. > :53:50.the BBC new expected to become the new Tory mouthpiece with March
:53:50. > :53:52.
:53:52. > :54:02.Boris Johnson saying it needs to be a mouthpiece for the Tories. It is
:54:02. > :54:10.unlikely that the BBC would become a mouthpiece for anyone. A Labour
:54:10. > :54:16.victory in Wales? I was referring to the Assembly elections. The
:54:16. > :54:24.amount of coverage is very stark. APPLAUSE
:54:25. > :54:28.It wasn't a Boris Johnson solo. was to do with characters. There
:54:28. > :54:33.were two strong characters, celebrities. It is depressing that
:54:33. > :54:39.we've got a part-time clown as Mayor of London rather than proper
:54:39. > :54:44.politicians like we have in Wales. The woman waving her fingers at me,
:54:44. > :54:51.I nope a nice way. I wondered whether there was something in the
:54:51. > :54:55.ownership of the papers and some of the television stations. I'm
:54:55. > :55:00.thinking that perhaps Rupert Murdoch was allowed to own too many
:55:01. > :55:04.papers and to become too powerful. Maybe that needs to be restricted.
:55:04. > :55:10.I want to do this one as it is very much of the moment. David Gareth
:55:10. > :55:18.Evans, please. With the Olympic torch coming to Cardiff next week
:55:18. > :55:24.why should Wales get excited about London's Games? APPLAUSE
:55:24. > :55:29.Brief answers please. Because some of the football is happening in
:55:29. > :55:34.Cardiff, right here. You're going to have events in Wales. London is
:55:34. > :55:38.a world class city. The Manchester bid for the Games was pathetic.
:55:38. > :55:41.London is up there with New York, Moscow and Paris and the great
:55:41. > :55:45.cities of the world. Cardiff is a great city. Manchester is a great
:55:45. > :55:51.city but they are not world class cities and it is right that the
:55:51. > :55:57.British bid came from London. What's great is you're going to
:55:57. > :56:01.have football here. Britain is doing well in the small bore rifle
:56:01. > :56:06.shooting. I'm looking forward to that. Maria Miller? Well, the
:56:07. > :56:12.Olympics and the Paralympics will be a showcase for some great
:56:12. > :56:14.British talent, great Welsh talent, great English talent and great
:56:14. > :56:19.Scottish talent. Amazing athletes and we should get behind them. The
:56:19. > :56:25.Olympics and the ploirs will be something that we can be really
:56:25. > :56:29.proud of. -- Paralympics. Peter Hain? Because we in Wales are not
:56:29. > :56:35.some small-minded nationalist enclave concerned only about
:56:35. > :56:39.ourselves. We are proud for part of Britain and we were
:56:39. > :56:49.internationalists. This is a celebration of international
:56:49. > :56:50.
:56:50. > :56:57.competition. APPLAUSE Leanne Wood? I hope that the legacy of the
:56:57. > :57:01.Olympics for Wales will mean that the money that was money diverted
:57:01. > :57:05.from grass roots organisations to pay for the lorry Olympics will
:57:05. > :57:09.come back. We are talking about public health, people being
:57:09. > :57:14.involved in exercise at a community level that. Needs to be funded to
:57:14. > :57:23.reduce obesity levels. I hope the legacy will be proper funding for
:57:23. > :57:32.sport and activities. Kelvin MacKenzie? 30 seconds. I'm hoping
:57:32. > :57:37.to turn to drink as we all join in cheering home our various medal
:57:37. > :57:43.winners. It is going to be fantastic. Bizarrely you will get
:57:43. > :57:48.caught up even in the curling. You will enjoy it. OK. APPLAUSE
:57:48. > :57:51.Our time's up. Next week we are going to be in King's Lynn. Griff
:57:51. > :57:55.Rhys Jones, the broadcaster and comedian, will be on the panel.
:57:55. > :57:59.There'll be four other people but I don't know who the hell they are at
:57:59. > :58:09.the moment. The week that have the moment. The week that have
:58:09. > :58:13.
:58:13. > :58:18.we'll be in Rugby. My thanks to all of you sitting on the panel and to