:00:15. > :00:23.Tonight, we near the Temple Speech Room at Rugby School, in Rugby.
:00:23. > :00:26.Welcome to Question Time. On our panel here, the
:00:26. > :00:30.international development minister, Alan Duncan.
:00:30. > :00:33.The shadow Home Office minister, Stella Creasy. The former Liberal
:00:33. > :00:39.Democrats home affairs spokesman, Mark Oaten, who has written a book
:00:39. > :00:43.about how coalitions don't work. The editor of the Spectator and
:00:43. > :00:53.columnist for the Daily Telegraph, Fraser Nelson and the broadcaster
:00:53. > :00:57.
:00:57. > :01:06.Victoria Coren. APPLAUSE
:01:06. > :01:13.Thank you very much. Michael Thomas has a question. After pasty,
:01:13. > :01:19.caravan and charity tax U-turns, is the Chancellor competent?
:01:19. > :01:24.Fraser Nelson? I think there is certainly a pattern emerging. We're
:01:24. > :01:28.on U-turn number 35, by my counts. The pattern seems to be, act first,
:01:29. > :01:34.think later, reverse it if it is a problem. It is a bit worrying. It's
:01:34. > :01:38.a problem for the Conservatives. People can forgive the Tories for
:01:38. > :01:43.being heartless. You bring a Tory Government in to make cuts. To be
:01:43. > :01:49.heartless and hopeless is a fatal combination. I mean, individually
:01:49. > :01:52.these things are not a problem - the caravan tax, pasty tax - but
:01:52. > :01:57.they have a cumulative effect which make you worry if the Government
:01:57. > :02:01.knows what is going on. I think the problem also is that if you get a
:02:01. > :02:05.reputation for U-turning, then it invites confrontation. Sooner or
:02:05. > :02:09.later, there'll be probably a confrontation with the trade unions
:02:09. > :02:14.in a way there has not been so far. The unions will look at this
:02:14. > :02:24.Government and will think, if he can't stand up to Greg the Baker,
:02:24. > :02:27.
:02:27. > :02:33.how will he stand up to the -- Len McClusky. Everybody pushes them, a
:02:33. > :02:38.Baker or a celebrity and the Government folds. So it looks weak,
:02:38. > :02:44.incompetent and not a good look at -- all.
:02:44. > :02:48.APPLAUSE The question was specifically about
:02:49. > :02:57.George Osborne rather than the Government - is he competent?
:02:57. > :03:03.would like to think so. I am not writing off George Osborne yet.
:03:03. > :03:06.He's had a catastrophic Budget. Maybe he should not have taken that
:03:06. > :03:11.week holiday to see Barack Obama the week before the Budget. This
:03:11. > :03:16.one is still exploding even now. It does make you wonder how much
:03:16. > :03:20.effort is put into the growth strategy if you see how little he
:03:20. > :03:24.has thought about smaller things. Looking at the results, we are not
:03:25. > :03:29.seeing much economic recovery now. I am worrying if we'll get a
:03:29. > :03:34.recovery by the next election. That is what I will judge George Osborne
:03:34. > :03:38.on, not the caravan, not the pasties but whether we get some
:03:38. > :03:41.growth. Journalism is about sensation and good, strong views.
:03:41. > :03:46.Whenever a politician changes his mind, it's not oh, good he has
:03:46. > :03:49.changed his mind because he has listen to what he's said, it is
:03:49. > :03:52.massive U-turn, Government in chaos. That is the business you're in.
:03:52. > :03:56.We're in the business, the democracy business of saying, this
:03:56. > :04:00.is what we'll do. When you put things out to
:04:01. > :04:05.consultation it is for that purpose and why is it therefore that when
:04:05. > :04:09.we respond, having listened to the arguments and change our mind, you
:04:09. > :04:13.say what you have just said. I think George Osborne is
:04:14. > :04:18.competent.Ly tell you why: We are face -- I will tell you high: We
:04:18. > :04:23.are facing some of the biggest economic changes in my lifetime. We
:04:23. > :04:27.are looking around the world at countries which falling to bits,
:04:27. > :04:31.facing civil strife in the streets. We are not in that position because
:04:31. > :04:35.this coalition Government has got to grips with some of the biggest
:04:35. > :04:40.economic challenges we'll ever see in our lifetime. By staying out of
:04:40. > :04:44.the single currency 20 years ago, fortunately we are able to
:04:44. > :04:50.respond.... You cannot give George Osborne the credit for that. He was
:04:51. > :04:54.not even out of school. He was, actually. On the point raised, are
:04:54. > :04:59.you suggesting all budget measures are out for consultation - it is an
:04:59. > :05:04.idea and then we sit around and say, we like this bit, we don't like
:05:04. > :05:08.that bit? Of course not. Some things are
:05:08. > :05:12.decided on the day. That is why at the end of the Budget speech
:05:12. > :05:20.Parliament agrees to change certain tax levels and things like that.
:05:20. > :05:25.The key thing - and you cannot accuse us of an U-turn on this - is
:05:25. > :05:31.getting finances back in order is back on course. That is why we've
:05:31. > :05:37.got... ALL SPEAK AT ONCE We have such low interest rates. If we were
:05:37. > :05:41.to do what Ed Balls was saying, to pay off a mortgage with a mortgage,
:05:42. > :05:46.we would have higher interest rates. Everyone in this room, unless they
:05:46. > :05:48.had large cash savings would be suffering. I will tell you high
:05:48. > :05:52.this matters. If I were the Chancellor, the thing that would
:05:52. > :05:57.exercise me the most is that businesses and companies in this
:05:57. > :06:02.country are sitting on �750 billion worth of cash and deposits. They
:06:02. > :06:10.are sitting on it as rainy Damonny, because they have no confidence at
:06:10. > :06:14.-- rainy Damonny, because they have no confidence at all. They are not
:06:14. > :06:17.making investments. That is the general point. What about the U-
:06:17. > :06:21.turns announced? When you look at a Chancellor who cannot decide
:06:21. > :06:24.whether he likes pasties, hot, cold or gently warmed, you can
:06:24. > :06:30.understand why they are not confident about our Government and
:06:30. > :06:39.the choices they are making. What I see in the 35, and possibly rising
:06:39. > :06:43.U-turns, is somebody incoherent about caravans and pasties, is
:06:43. > :06:47.wrong about where our economy is going and the kind of things we
:06:47. > :06:52.need to do to generate jobs in this country, so we are not spending
:06:52. > :06:56.less on welfare, but getting taxes back on because people are in work.
:06:56. > :07:00.That is why people are so worried and frightened about what he's
:07:00. > :07:06.doing. APPLAUSE
:07:06. > :07:09.Years ago, even the slightest Budget leak was a major resignation
:07:09. > :07:12.issue. Now the whole thing is trailed in public weeks before.
:07:12. > :07:17.This is a good thing or a bad thing?
:07:17. > :07:23.I think it has been a good result for the pasty tax. If it was not
:07:23. > :07:30.devised we would not have the joy of seeing the Labour high command
:07:30. > :07:33.being in Gregs pretending they had not been in one before. It is
:07:33. > :07:37.astonishing footage. You said we should respect the fact he changed
:07:37. > :07:42.his mind. We have to factor in he thought of it in the first place.
:07:42. > :07:48.This is a Government of people. Here is this Tory high command,
:07:48. > :07:53.generally the key figures of massive personal wealth.
:07:53. > :07:57.Embarrassing pictures of them floating around in black tie.
:07:57. > :08:02.Winston Churchill was posh. They know that is the problem they have.
:08:02. > :08:06.And then they have this idea, they are going to tax pasties and
:08:06. > :08:10.caravans. They are going to identify things that the absolutely
:08:10. > :08:13.poorest people in the country enjoy and hammer them. Now, that was not
:08:13. > :08:17.a very clever idea in the first place. The fact he thinks better of
:08:17. > :08:23.it - OK, well, but he should not have thought of it to begin with. I
:08:23. > :08:26.will not say that George Osborne is incompetent - that would be
:08:26. > :08:31.disrespectful. He is the Chancellor. I would say, if I was going on
:08:31. > :08:41.holiday and needed someone to look after my flat and feed the cat, I
:08:41. > :08:43.
:08:43. > :08:48.would not ask George Osborne. Mark Oaten?
:08:48. > :08:52.To answer the question directly, no, I don't think he is incompetent. To
:08:52. > :08:57.some extent, looking back on politics over the past 20 years we
:08:57. > :09:01.go through a cycle of a politician says something, there's a big fuss,
:09:01. > :09:06.they should change it and then they do change it and then there is a
:09:06. > :09:08.big fuss because it is a U-turn. We've all done it. The danger is
:09:09. > :09:17.when a politician really should change something, because it is
:09:17. > :09:24.wrong, they don't, because they are skoir scared about the big fuss
:09:24. > :09:29.there'll be over a U-turn. However, the question has to be asked, was,
:09:29. > :09:32.what I would call a common sense factor put into these measures? Was
:09:32. > :09:36.somebody lying in bed in the morning and thinking? If they
:09:36. > :09:41.thought, can you really introduce a tax on whether it is hot, cold,
:09:41. > :09:46.semi hot or cold, can you start to take on the charitable sector in
:09:46. > :09:50.this country? If somebody laid in the bed longer in the morning and
:09:50. > :09:54.put the common sense factor into this then they would not have
:09:54. > :10:03.introduce these measures. Have a lie-in and put the common sense in,
:10:03. > :10:06.in the future. APPLAUSE I think the way it is
:10:06. > :10:11.going, George Osborne will get the sack. I would like to see if he
:10:11. > :10:17.could do a U-turn on student loans before he loses his job! You think
:10:17. > :10:26.Osborne is going? I think the minister will go. We have to be a
:10:27. > :10:28.U-turn on student fees as soon as Politics is basically a PR exercise,
:10:28. > :10:34.rather than people going fundamentally with what they
:10:34. > :10:40.believe and seeking to leave, as opposed to manage opinion: You mean
:10:40. > :10:45.they are not getting on with the job?
:10:45. > :10:48.It is managing and therefore when there is a kickback, if you believe
:10:48. > :10:52.that, let's stick with it. If you think it will be good for the
:10:52. > :10:55.country, stick with it. There have been measures in the past which
:10:55. > :11:01.have been unpopular, but time has turned out it has been the right
:11:01. > :11:07.thing to do. So stick with that. you want to join the Twitter
:11:07. > :11:12.debate: If you want to join in the debate
:11:12. > :11:15.yourself physically, we'll be in Inverness next week. Details of how
:11:15. > :11:21.to join that programme are on the screen.
:11:21. > :11:31.A question now from Lias Eaton. is right for doctors to strike over
:11:31. > :11:34.
:11:35. > :11:38.a pension that most of us can only I feel very torn by this issue. I
:11:38. > :11:42.have already had a number of people in my constituency come to me and
:11:42. > :11:46.say they are worried about what will happen on the date that the
:11:46. > :11:50.doctors have said they want to go on strike. I have talked to doctors
:11:50. > :11:53.and nurses who feel pushed to the limit by what this Government has
:11:53. > :11:57.done to the NHS. In answer to your question, no, if I am honest, I
:11:57. > :12:00.don't think it is the right thing to do at this point in time. All of
:12:00. > :12:03.us need to put pressure on the Government to take their
:12:03. > :12:06.responsibility. The doctors are saying, we want to negotiate and we
:12:06. > :12:10.cannot even get the Secretary of State around the table. We have
:12:10. > :12:13.seen other secretaries of state being willing to get around the
:12:13. > :12:17.table and talk to unions about difficult changes, which everybody
:12:17. > :12:21.recognises will need to happen. Why Mr Lansley thinks it is beneath him
:12:21. > :12:27.to talk to doctors, so avoid these situations in the first place, is
:12:27. > :12:32.beneath me? -- is beyond me. It is a pension
:12:32. > :12:37.most can only dream of? It is something which will have to change.
:12:37. > :12:40.We know there are difficult choices. One thing is the Hutton Report. We
:12:40. > :12:44.started the Hutton Report. Jon Hutton is saying the Government is
:12:44. > :12:48.going about this the wrong way. The difficult changes we made in
:12:48. > :12:54.Government we did in partnership with the unions. We got there and
:12:54. > :12:57.we made difficult changes. This Government is going for
:12:57. > :13:01.confrontation first and conversation later. You say it is a
:13:01. > :13:05.pension most people can only dream of - I understand what you are
:13:05. > :13:10.saying - but these doctors are not just lucked into this pension.
:13:10. > :13:14.Doctors train for seven years. They start their working lives later
:13:14. > :13:17.than any professional. They have to work 40 years and they spend that
:13:18. > :13:22.time, most of them, covered in blood, seeing terrible things,
:13:22. > :13:25.watching people die. It is a tough life that demands massive
:13:25. > :13:30.concentration, long, long hours, very hard work. They have not just
:13:30. > :13:35.been found in the street and handed this pension. Also, a doctor's
:13:35. > :13:39.salary is very sharp and steep. They start very low, so being told
:13:39. > :13:45.that instead of getting their final salary they will get an average,
:13:45. > :13:52.that will hurt them a lot more than I would comparable professionals
:13:52. > :13:58.because of how jaged it is. They will have a sympathy problem. I
:13:58. > :14:02.don't think as people say - I think most people will be disappointed
:14:02. > :14:07.with their GP, they feel short changed. I will not be tricked into
:14:07. > :14:12.that argument, all these doctors, they are all riched, what are they
:14:12. > :14:15.complaining about? It is dangerous to start this idea of any public
:14:15. > :14:19.sector workers being greedy and demanding. I don't think people are
:14:19. > :14:24.as stupid as we are being led to think. I don't think people are
:14:24. > :14:28.cruel. I think the fact lots of us are struggling doesn't mean we'll
:14:28. > :14:32.not feeling sorry for someone having their pension cut. It is not
:14:32. > :14:37.the doctors' fault there is a financial crisis. It is not their
:14:37. > :14:41.fault that all Governments of recent years failed to address the
:14:41. > :14:46.demographic problem, there would be a problem with pensions for
:14:46. > :14:50.everyone. We should not be misled into thinking there is no money for
:14:50. > :15:00.these public sector workers when there was money to be pumped into
:15:00. > :15:05.
:15:05. > :15:10.the banks and paid to people as Surely this argument is saying that
:15:10. > :15:14.the money that is going to their pensions being taken out of other
:15:14. > :15:17.services elsewhere, surely we could free up this money by getting rid
:15:18. > :15:24.of the red tape and managers in the NHS and rewarding doctors for
:15:24. > :15:27.something they do really well and making it easier for them to do it
:15:27. > :15:31.byry moving the bureaucracy around their day-to-day lives. Do you
:15:31. > :15:40.think the strike is right? that's what's needed to improve the
:15:40. > :15:46.service then for a short time yes. The woman behind you? I don't agree
:15:46. > :15:50.with Victoria. Anyone entering the profession of doctor, their first
:15:50. > :15:54.objective should be altruism and the second is care. They are being
:15:54. > :15:59.paid a lot more than the average nurses or whoever they are. They've
:15:59. > :16:03.been asked... They've trained seven years to get this job. It is not
:16:03. > :16:07.about how much they are paid but how much money there is. The
:16:07. > :16:12.problem about missing money is people who are not doctors, and
:16:12. > :16:19.don't let anyone trick you into being angry with doctors because
:16:19. > :16:23.the country can't afford to pay them. But this is against the
:16:23. > :16:30.Hippocratic oath. Non-emergency services only. It doesn't matter to
:16:30. > :16:35.the general public to. The general public it instils fear to. The
:16:36. > :16:40.elderly it instils fear. I think it is sacrificing the Hippocratic oath
:16:40. > :16:46.to the altar of greed. I'm sorry, I do not agree with the strike.
:16:46. > :16:50.APPLAUSE The woman on that side. There are two points I want to make.
:16:50. > :16:54.Firstly, there is no harming the Hippocratic oath. They are going to
:16:54. > :17:00.treat emergencies. If someone turns up at the doctor's dying, they are
:17:00. > :17:09.going to get treated. And secondly, with student fees going up, if you
:17:09. > :17:13.are at uni five years paying 9 grand a year, that's 40 grand on
:17:13. > :17:17.tuition, not including just living, including the uniform you have to
:17:17. > :17:21.pay for yourself, doctors have to buy their own scrubs and books.
:17:21. > :17:26.Doctors are putting a lot of their own money into going into that
:17:26. > :17:29.profession in the first place and they should have a decent amount of
:17:29. > :17:35.financial reward and be able to live comfortably when they reach
:17:35. > :17:39.old age. APPLAUSE Mark Oaten? question was clear: should they
:17:39. > :17:43.strike? The answer is no, I don't think they should strike. I would
:17:43. > :17:47.have some sympathy with the medical profession if it was striking over
:17:47. > :17:52.a measure where they felt that the measure was going to harm patient
:17:52. > :17:56.care. Then I would have some sympathy, but this is purely about
:17:56. > :18:01.self interest and their pension, and that is why I don't think it is
:18:01. > :18:07.acceptable. Will it put a lot of patients, whether they are
:18:07. > :18:12.emergency or not, give them misery, they turn up for the operation and
:18:12. > :18:15.it is cancelled or delayed. I'm slightly queuesed that only half of
:18:15. > :18:20.the doctors voted on this issue in the ballot. So if people really
:18:20. > :18:24.cared that strongly about it, why did only half vote? The big issue
:18:24. > :18:31.is there's a pensions time bomb taking place. We are all having to
:18:31. > :18:36.take touch choices on this and the doctors should be part of that.
:18:36. > :18:41.APPLAUSE If what this Government does means that the entirety of the
:18:41. > :18:47.public pension pot changes because of the changes they make, we will
:18:47. > :18:52.all be worse off. I don't think the GPs are going to pull out. As far
:18:52. > :18:56.as the doctors breaking the Hippocratic oath, what other choice
:18:56. > :19:02.do they have? This Government has shown that any negotiations they
:19:02. > :19:06.have with unions they end up with threats to strike. The PR machine
:19:06. > :19:09.of the Conservative Government needs a revamp. Alan Duncan, do you
:19:09. > :19:14.want to answer that? First of all, this is not about the reform of the
:19:14. > :19:18.health service, but pension. Mark is right, we have a public sector
:19:18. > :19:23.pensions time bomb. What this issue is about is trying to get a fair
:19:23. > :19:27.deal for doctors m of whom are earning over �100,000 and under
:19:27. > :19:33.their current contributions can get pension after they've retired in
:19:34. > :19:38.excess of �55,000 or �60,000. Some of them will get a pension that the
:19:38. > :19:41.level for perhaps 25 years. At the moment they are paying a
:19:41. > :19:46.contribution which in no way reflects the cost of that pension.
:19:46. > :19:50.If they were in the private sector they would have had to save �1
:19:50. > :19:54.million or more to finance that pension. What we are asking the
:19:54. > :19:57.doctors to do, which is no more than we are asking people in the
:19:57. > :20:00.country to do, and if you are in the private sector you might not
:20:01. > :20:04.have a pension, is to increase their contribution. We are asking
:20:04. > :20:09.the doctors, because they are living longer and they have what at
:20:09. > :20:15.the moment is a very well-resourced pension package to contribute more
:20:15. > :20:20.towards the cost of that package. How can you have allowed it end
:20:20. > :20:23.up... APPLAUSE How can you have allowed it to end up in a position
:20:23. > :20:26.where the doctors take in huge advertisements in the paper saying
:20:26. > :20:30.they've been forced to take industrial action because you are
:20:30. > :20:34.not listening to them? I don't accept that argument. Andrew
:20:34. > :20:38.Lansley, his job in opposition and now in Government for seven years,
:20:38. > :20:43.sits down regularly with them. And elsewhere in the public sector
:20:43. > :20:48.today we have reached agreement about what will be life-time
:20:48. > :20:53.measured benefits for pensions. This is not. This is a final salary
:20:53. > :20:56.pension with contribution. So asking the doctors to contribute a
:20:56. > :21:00.higher percentage of their monthly salary to help contribute and pay
:21:00. > :21:04.for that pension is, in my view, perfectly fair. I think they are
:21:04. > :21:08.wrong to go on strike. I think they've been whipped up a bit by
:21:08. > :21:15.some people in the profession. It is unfair and unreasonable for them
:21:15. > :21:18.to do what they are doing. I think that some of the comments we've
:21:18. > :21:22.heard here more accurately understand what's going on. The nan
:21:22. > :21:27.the checked shirt. Tinge rhetoric of the Government is all wrong. It
:21:27. > :21:33.seems to be creating this divide between the public sector and
:21:33. > :21:38.private sector. That's making goegs difficult. I think to your point as
:21:38. > :21:42.-- that's making negotiation difficult. It does not make any
:21:42. > :21:46.sense to any of us who are desperately worried about patient
:21:46. > :21:51.care, and the doctors are worried about patient care, that Government
:21:51. > :21:55.will not get round the table and negotiate with then. Why not say
:21:55. > :21:58.you will negotiate with doctors to avert this strike? It is about
:21:58. > :22:02.their pension, not patient care. The reason we are in this
:22:02. > :22:07.difficulty is that Governments are prone to promise what they can't
:22:07. > :22:14.deliver in order to buy votes, and in the end someone has to say I'm
:22:14. > :22:20.sorry, we can't honour that, you will have to pay more, and tour
:22:20. > :22:24.blame. Fraser Nelson? Over the last 15 years we've seen the elimination
:22:24. > :22:29.of private sector pensions. Hardly anyone at work can look forward to
:22:29. > :22:35.the kind of pension they could woo have got 20 years. There's a lot of
:22:35. > :22:38.pain being suffered, 1 million jobs in the private sector. In the
:22:38. > :22:43.public sector manages of workers are getting a pay freeze. They are
:22:43. > :22:48.not going on strike. It seems odd that doctors who are getting six-
:22:48. > :22:51.figure salaries, and the last Labour Government negotiated their
:22:51. > :22:57.contract, they did well out of that. My heart doesn't bleed for them. I
:22:57. > :23:04.think they are way down the public sympathy list. Millions of public
:23:04. > :23:12.sector workers are suffering just as bad. Doctors the work hard, but
:23:12. > :23:17.so do nurses. They are up to their arms in... APPLAUSE We don't see
:23:17. > :23:23.nurses going on strike. I think people with greater cause to go on
:23:23. > :23:30.strike but they aren't. I to take one or two points from the audience.
:23:30. > :23:33.Madam in the front row. I think the doctors at the moment,
:23:33. > :23:37.in their, they are intelligent people, they haven't been on strike
:23:37. > :23:44.for 40 years, so you have to bear that in mind that they've thought
:23:44. > :23:48.about this. To pick on the doctors, you've got teachers coming up soon
:23:48. > :23:52.and they are maybe going on strike action. Again, intelligent people.
:23:52. > :23:58.They want to do the best for their students. They've thought about
:23:58. > :24:03.this and maybe they've reached their limit. And you Sir? I think
:24:03. > :24:08.this pensions issue is the tip of an enormous iceberg and this is
:24:08. > :24:13.just the start. I'm more concerned about what signalled, what signal
:24:13. > :24:18.this sends from doctors to all the sectors of the public sector unions,
:24:18. > :24:22.nurses and everyone who has to face this problem over the coming years.
:24:22. > :24:28.OK. A last point, you Sir. We've been talking about doctors and
:24:28. > :24:32.someone mentioned teachers. If I were to pay in for 40 years an 8%
:24:32. > :24:37.contribution I would have funded three years of my salary. If people
:24:37. > :24:46.are going to retire and draw a pension for 20 years it doesn't
:24:46. > :24:54.take a genius to work out that it is unaffordable. APPLAUSE
:24:54. > :24:58.We'll go on. Simon McAusland please. Would the UK be justified in
:24:58. > :25:05.banning Syrian delegation members with connections to the Bashar al-
:25:05. > :25:09.Assad regime from the London 2012 Olympics? I suppose General Juma,
:25:09. > :25:14.the President of the Olympic committee. Mark Oaten, what do you
:25:14. > :25:20.think? To be honest that's a pretty small gesture to make, given what's
:25:20. > :25:26.taking place. If that is the only response we can have to the events
:25:26. > :25:30.in Syria, that's a pretty poor show. The reality is that the solution to
:25:30. > :25:34.Syria is not going to be about taking those kinds of gestures. It
:25:34. > :25:38.has to be about trying to get backbone into the United Nations
:25:38. > :25:42.and the measures being put through there. When I look at what's
:25:42. > :25:45.happening in Syria, two things trouble me. The first is that the
:25:45. > :25:49.UN is powerless. Kofi Annan is trying to get this measure in place.
:25:49. > :25:54.It is being ignored that. Said a lot about the power of the United
:25:54. > :25:58.Nations. The second issue is just how influential the Russians are in
:25:58. > :26:02.this and the destiny of Syria is dependent on Russia. That's why it
:26:02. > :26:07.was right that William Hague did all he could to try to tackle the
:26:07. > :26:13.issue with the Russianings recently. It is going be that -- with the
:26:13. > :26:16.Russians when when he met them recently. Whether there is the
:26:16. > :26:21.stomach for military intervention is questionable. While what we see
:26:21. > :26:24.is horrendous I'm not sure the British public would necessarily
:26:24. > :26:26.support military intervention. The solution will have to be much
:26:26. > :26:32.bigger than banning officials from turning up at the Olympics.
:26:32. > :26:37.APPLAUSE I agree with your point that you
:26:37. > :26:42.have to ban, you can't just ban officials, but does it apply to
:26:42. > :26:47.other countries who've abused human rights? Does it only apply to Syria
:26:47. > :26:51.or will you have to impose it on other countries as well?
:26:51. > :26:55.coalition Government have said they will have a power, if you like, to
:26:55. > :27:00.refuse visas for individuals connected with human rights abuses.
:27:00. > :27:04.That is a good thing and it sends the right message, but it is a
:27:04. > :27:07.small gesture to be making. Tinge Olympic committee have shown how
:27:07. > :27:11.little they care about human rights abuses. Look at Saudi Arabia. This
:27:11. > :27:19.week they are not sending a single woman to the Olympics. The Olympic
:27:19. > :27:25.committee have done absolutely nothing. Fraser Nelson?
:27:25. > :27:31.I think the banning of the del gay, I'm not sure we have the powers to
:27:31. > :27:35.do that -- the bang of the del gay, I'm not sure we have the powers to
:27:35. > :27:43.do that. Fit was within our power it's the least we can do. The
:27:43. > :27:46.terrifying thing is we can see this blood-bath which is ongoing. In the
:27:46. > :27:50.last year 7,000 people have been killed by the Bashar al-Assad
:27:50. > :27:54.regime and we are talking about whether to ban people coming to
:27:54. > :27:59.watch sports. It does seem incredibly frustrating but I can't
:27:59. > :28:05.see what more we can do. There are calls in America right now for
:28:05. > :28:11.military action to say we should go in there as we did in other
:28:11. > :28:14.countries and impose a no-fly zone or arm the rebels. I can't see why
:28:14. > :28:20.we believe the rebels would be that much better than the Bashar al-
:28:20. > :28:25.Assad regime. It is complicated and we should resist the thought to
:28:25. > :28:32.think that it would make things better. Kite lead to greater
:28:32. > :28:38.carnage and chaos. I really don't see this many more options thon the
:28:38. > :28:42.Olympics to us. What about sanctions? Sure. There are so many
:28:42. > :28:46.things we could do diplomatically but I'm not convinced we should
:28:46. > :28:52.succumb to this reaction Britain we tend to shape the world rather than
:28:52. > :28:57.be shaped be it. We are the country who helps people being oppressed.
:28:57. > :29:07.But this is a tinder-box of a nation which I think could be made
:29:07. > :29:11.
:29:11. > :29:15.Can you clarify the point - can the Home Secretary ban anybody she
:29:15. > :29:19.chooses, regardless of whether they are taking part in the Olympic
:29:19. > :29:23.Games? I am not sure what the legal position would be, compared to the
:29:23. > :29:28.agreement you have to sign when you host the Olympics. I don't want to
:29:28. > :29:33.myself lead you on this. -- miss lead you on this.
:29:33. > :29:39.The Prime Minister has not signed the agreement. I am not sure. The
:29:39. > :29:44.key point is the Syrian point. I agree with Mark and Fraser. We are
:29:44. > :29:47.looking at the most disgusting situation in Syria. We are
:29:47. > :29:53.frustrated at the sense of powerlessness to deal with it. We
:29:53. > :29:58.can only do what is legal and that means UN Resolutions. William Hague
:29:58. > :30:03.and the Prime Minister have been driving that agenda in the UN as
:30:03. > :30:08.hard as they can. There are obstacles, in this case Russia, on
:30:08. > :30:13.which Hillary Clinton has today said something. The number of
:30:13. > :30:18.people dead in Syria is estimated between 10,000-15,000. You are
:30:18. > :30:23.looking at the most complicated, intertwined sectarian conflict in
:30:23. > :30:28.the country. The UN is key. At the moment, in the department in which
:30:28. > :30:32.I am a minister, the department is key to the humanitarian attempts,
:30:32. > :30:36.which we are contributing to. Even they are very difficult to put into
:30:36. > :30:42.practise. How would things differ the Russians came on side and in
:30:42. > :30:48.agreement with the rest of the UN? You are still not talking about
:30:48. > :30:53.arming the rebels or providing safe areas, or no-fly zones? What is it
:30:53. > :30:57.the Russians would bring that they are not at the moment? It is so
:30:57. > :31:02.complicated that military action could cause more of a trouble than
:31:02. > :31:07.it addresses. What Russian support could do is put effective pressure
:31:07. > :31:13.on the regime in a way that the UN, without Russia, cannot. Pressure on
:31:13. > :31:19.Assad and his cronies could make a massive difference from only the
:31:19. > :31:23.Russians would come on board. UN are key to solving the Syrian
:31:23. > :31:28.crisis, but they are toothless tigers. Everybody ignores what they
:31:28. > :31:31.say. They have meetings, they come up with strongly-worded
:31:31. > :31:36.declarations and everybody ignores them. This conflict could escalate.
:31:36. > :31:42.If you have Qatar and Saudi Arabia, allegedly supplying arms to the
:31:42. > :31:45.opposition. You have Iran allegedly supplying arms to the regime. If we
:31:45. > :31:50.get involved in military action that region will explode. What
:31:51. > :31:56.would you like to see happen? think we have to strengthen the UN.
:31:56. > :32:03.Russia has got to come on board with them and then the peace
:32:03. > :32:07.process has to be started, and Kofi Annan's policies have got to be
:32:07. > :32:13.adhered to. The UN can only be as strong as it is allowed and
:32:13. > :32:18.authorised to be by member-states. You have to look at the member-
:32:18. > :32:23.states. If we had more monitors, it may be a step in reducing the
:32:24. > :32:27.atrocities. There is a limit to what they can do.
:32:27. > :32:34.My question is for Mr Duncan - what sanctions is the Government
:32:34. > :32:38.imposing on countries such as Syria with human rights abuses, with the
:32:38. > :32:43.forthcoming arm treaty, such as international development aid?
:32:43. > :32:49.don't have a development programme in Syria, and in due course, come
:32:49. > :32:53.July in the negotiations, we hope there'll be an international arms
:32:53. > :32:57.trade treaty. At the moment you could look at financial sanctions,
:32:57. > :33:01.targeted at individuals and we have to look at the International
:33:01. > :33:07.Criminal Court. We have to make them fearful of the future and make
:33:07. > :33:12.them now they cannot get away with what they are doing. I represent an
:33:12. > :33:18.area in north-east London. The idea that anybody was involved in what
:33:18. > :33:23.we saw in Houla - a genocide. We saw women and children tortured in
:33:23. > :33:28.their homes, it makes me feel sick to my stomach. I hope the British
:33:28. > :33:33.delegation is part of the, the Olympic committee is making strong
:33:33. > :33:38.reputations on it. I believe military intervention is probably
:33:38. > :33:43.not ideal, not least because there is not support in the comounty of
:33:43. > :33:46.Syria itself. The Syrian -- community of Syria itself. The
:33:46. > :33:50.Syrian partners are divided on this point. Just because we cannot do
:33:50. > :33:55.that does not mean we cannot do something about the situation in
:33:56. > :34:00.Syria. Where I take exception is we can be more creative. The gentleman
:34:00. > :34:05.talked about sanctions, there is already an oil embargo with Syria
:34:05. > :34:09.at the moment. It covers the European nations. How much stronger
:34:09. > :34:15.would it be if it covered other countries importing oil to Syria.
:34:15. > :34:18.There are things we can do to cut off the Assad regime. We have to
:34:18. > :34:23.see naming of the people involved in this bloodbath that is taking
:34:23. > :34:27.place in Syria, not just at the top, but the generals on the ground,
:34:27. > :34:32.people ordering the massacres we are seeing, so they know they will
:34:32. > :34:35.face the full floor of the International Criminal Courts. We
:34:36. > :34:39.must not forget the humanitarian issues. There are difficult
:34:39. > :34:44.conversations to be had with their neighbours. We can be part of the
:34:44. > :34:49.conversations. Fraser is right, we cannot solve any of these issues on
:34:49. > :34:59.our own, but we can be part of a community working together to
:34:59. > :35:00.
:35:00. > :35:05.address those issues. APPLAUSE Victoria Coren? All this talk of
:35:05. > :35:13.generally what should be done about Syria, everybody said sitcomly
:35:13. > :35:17.kaited. I hate it. -- -- say it is complicated. I hate it. The
:35:17. > :35:23.question about the Olympic is not complicated. Should they come here?
:35:23. > :35:29.No, they are disgusting. You say you are worried if you cannot ban
:35:29. > :35:37.them. I'll do it. Give me a water cannon, I'll go to the airport!
:35:37. > :35:44.A question from Jennifer Smith. the continual revelations from the
:35:44. > :35:51.Leveson Inquiry put into doubt the personal judgment of David Cameron?
:35:51. > :35:58.Presumably in Jeremy Hunt handling the affair with BSkyB and Murdoch,
:35:58. > :36:02.yes? The Leveson Inquiry. Why do you say that - soap opera. I missed
:36:02. > :36:05.two episodes, now I have no idea what is going on. It is like a
:36:05. > :36:10.full-time job. Every day. They are on Twitter, this one has gone, this
:36:10. > :36:14.one has gone. I've lost the plot. Tell me if I am wrong. I understand
:36:14. > :36:18.what came out today is Jeremy Hunt, before it was announced, well
:36:18. > :36:23.stopped before then, but before there was an outside for the bid
:36:23. > :36:29.for BSkyB, it turned out he sent a text to James Murdoch saying,
:36:29. > :36:32."We've done it. I love you. Are we going to mum or dad's for Christmas
:36:32. > :36:36.this year?" David Cameron said, it is fine. It has my full support, no
:36:37. > :36:42.problem with him staying in the job. Is that what was said today?
:36:42. > :36:52.will do. Yes, well I think that is hilarious.
:36:52. > :36:54.
:36:54. > :36:58.What I find.... Said great and congrat on -- congrats on Brussels.
:36:58. > :37:02.That is what we want between the press baron and the Government. It
:37:02. > :37:08.proves why that relationship is too close. I was talking to someone
:37:08. > :37:11.about it on the train, is should he be fired? I said, yes, of course he
:37:11. > :37:15.should, this is ridiculous. This closeness is too corrupt. Of course
:37:16. > :37:21.he should be fired. Had I ever met Jeremy Hunt, no doubt I would say,
:37:21. > :37:25.oh, he seems like a nice chap, he's a nice guy, seems well, he should
:37:25. > :37:30.not be fired. That is why journalists and politicians should
:37:31. > :37:34.not mix that closely. Each needs to keep a cold, clear eye on the other.
:37:34. > :37:43.It is not happening and there is something very wrong.
:37:43. > :37:47.APPLAUSE Stella Creasy? I think the
:37:47. > :37:53.questioner is right to say, what does this tell us about the
:37:53. > :37:56.minister? What we have seen, it was not just that he was sending a
:37:56. > :38:01.number of text messages, it is that Jeremy Hunt came to Parliament and
:38:01. > :38:05.told us none of this was happening. It is clear from the evidence we
:38:05. > :38:10.have seen at the Leveson Inquiry that he misled Parliament. He told
:38:10. > :38:19.us he had no contact with this gentleman. Now we have seen text
:38:19. > :38:29.messages about mama and papa. It is like the Renault Clio adverts.
:38:29. > :38:30.
:38:31. > :38:36.did they go? I cannot believe I am saying this on TV, but "Papa?"
:38:36. > :38:42.But, my point is there was clearly a cosy relationship. We were sure
:38:42. > :38:44.Jeremy Hunt was making a decision without reference to the influence
:38:44. > :38:51.of News International. Crucially David Cameron said to us, well, if
:38:51. > :38:55.it comes out in the course of the Leveson Inquiry that he has misled
:38:55. > :38:58.Parliament or there is information he has broken the Ministerial
:38:58. > :39:03.Code,ly refer it. That came out today. David Cameron said, I will
:39:03. > :39:06.not refer it, nothing to see here. There has been a transgression in
:39:06. > :39:16.the Ministerial Code. It is very worrying and concerning that a
:39:16. > :39:18.
:39:18. > :39:23.Prime Minister seems so blas say about it. Nicol - thank you!
:39:23. > :39:27.I don't think it reflects badly on David Cameron or Jeremy Hunt. Let
:39:27. > :39:31.me tell you something - judges have opinions. When they are sitting in
:39:31. > :39:36.court they will probably know the barristers in front of them, might
:39:36. > :39:40.be members of the same club. What matters is how does the judge
:39:40. > :39:46.behave when sitting in his judicial capacity? Properly and according to
:39:46. > :39:53.the law? Let me finish... Why was Vince
:39:53. > :39:59.Cable sacked for having the same... APPLAUSE
:39:59. > :40:03.Because, he had been taped saying that he was declaring war. So he
:40:03. > :40:08.was tape and the other was text. There's no difference. There is a
:40:08. > :40:14.massive difference. He said he had declared war on the Murdoch empire
:40:14. > :40:22.and, basically wanted to do down them at all costs. Jeremy Hunt
:40:22. > :40:27.never said that. He was made in charge of... He was put in charge
:40:27. > :40:30.of the bid. As soon as he was put in charge of the bid, following
:40:30. > :40:34.legal advice and from his officials and referring to Ofcom, doing
:40:34. > :40:40.things which were not the things that the Murdoch empire would have
:40:40. > :40:44.liked, behaved meticulously. That is what was clear from the witness
:40:44. > :40:49.before the Leveson Inquiry today. All this talk about texts, they all
:40:49. > :40:52.happened before. In the same way as judges set aside their personal
:40:52. > :40:57.opinions and look at the facts, that is exactly what Jeremy Hunt
:40:57. > :41:05.did once he was entrusted with ministerial responsibility. He said
:41:05. > :41:13.to Cameron in a memo - I think it would be totally wrong to cave into
:41:13. > :41:23.the anti- coalition case. He was in favour of the bid.
:41:23. > :41:23.
:41:23. > :41:28.He's not a lawyer, he a politician, I is a -- which is a false analogy.
:41:28. > :41:34.It is not being a judge. That is what sectors of state have to do on
:41:34. > :41:39.a number of issues. The question is whether the judgment was right.
:41:39. > :41:46.judge is not passing judgment on the barrister. What if the judge
:41:46. > :41:53.was out with a man accused of theft - would that be OK? He consulted
:41:53. > :41:56.them. Even when I am making small decisions as a minister we act on
:41:56. > :42:02.advice. We don't just sit there and say, I am a politician, I believe
:42:02. > :42:08.that, do that. We look at options presented to us by civil servants
:42:08. > :42:11.it is meticulously so in this bid. Why didn't Jeremy Hunt tell
:42:11. > :42:17.Parliament about it? He told Parliament none of this had
:42:17. > :42:25.happened. What we are seeing is it did.
:42:25. > :42:33.He said no contact between him and Fred Michel. Ministers should not
:42:33. > :42:39.misled Parliament - yes or no? He did not miss lead Parliament.
:42:39. > :42:46.Misleading Parliament is a very serious offence. I have are reread
:42:46. > :42:50.Jeremy Hunt's answers. He said he had zero contact with Fred Michel.
:42:50. > :42:54.I thought the Prime Minister would make good on his word. He said if
:42:54. > :42:59.new evidence arose he would refer it to the independent commissioner.
:42:59. > :43:04.He said today that he is not going to do that.
:43:04. > :43:08.Mark Oaten? I am a core participant in Leveson. I have been following
:43:08. > :43:12.it with interest. Here is the thing I don't get, it answers the point
:43:12. > :43:17.about the judgment, given the vacancy occurred because the Prime
:43:17. > :43:24.Minister had to take a view that Vince Cable was not cable of doing
:43:24. > :43:29.this, you -- capable of doing this. You would have thought the first
:43:29. > :43:34.question the Prime Minister would ask, having got rid of somebody
:43:34. > :43:38.whose judgment was clouded, would check the next person who did it
:43:39. > :43:42.would not make similar statements. In the full knowledge of the
:43:42. > :43:46.statements that had been made. point is that the sensible thing to
:43:46. > :43:49.have done, at the point when Vince Cable made the comments, is for the
:43:49. > :43:53.Prime Minister to turn around and say, I don't think any politician
:43:53. > :43:57.is capable of taking this decision, because they will all have strong
:43:57. > :44:01.views on the media and Murdoch and maybe we need to take these kind of
:44:01. > :44:06.decisions away from politicians and give them to people who genuinely
:44:06. > :44:09.are independent, without any bag age. All politicians come with
:44:10. > :44:19.baggage, particularly when contexted to newspapers. I can tell
:44:19. > :44:24.you that from experience. Regarding how close they are to the
:44:24. > :44:30.media, don't you have sympathy with politicians, because they are under
:44:30. > :44:35.so much influence. News Corp, (Inaudible) they barely have a
:44:35. > :44:39.choice to support BSkyB or not. When I was a politician you are
:44:39. > :44:46.constantly involved with journalists. They invite you to
:44:46. > :44:52.lunch, you have drinks, and you hope you get better coverage. It
:44:52. > :44:59.gets very cosy and what we've seen from Leveson is just how cosy it
:44:59. > :45:05.was getting. I love that we get a free press in this country even if
:45:05. > :45:10.sometimes you get uncomfortable reports from it. Fraser Nelson?
:45:10. > :45:16.does look odd that David Cameron says Vince Cable, you look biased
:45:16. > :45:26.and therefore we take it away from you and I wonder if there is anyone
:45:26. > :45:30.in the Commons genuinely neutral on Rupert Murdoch. The Leveson Inquiry
:45:30. > :45:34.has ended up as a battle between the two least popular people in
:45:34. > :45:40.society, journalist it is and politicians, and people are
:45:40. > :45:45.wondering that it is a shame that both can't lose. It is not edifying
:45:45. > :45:52.for anybody. It is like a Victorian freak show. It is really depressing
:45:52. > :45:58.to watch, so it's embarrassing, yes. I haven't seen anything done that
:45:58. > :46:04.would cause people to lose their jobs. I don't sigh why a special
:46:04. > :46:13.adviser gets the sack and the Minister stays. Jeremy Hunt said he
:46:13. > :46:19.thought hard whether to resign and then decided he shouldn't. Special
:46:19. > :46:23.advisers play an important role. You can't say right, this man is
:46:23. > :46:30.texting Murdoch and his friends, I'm shocked, I will have to sack
:46:30. > :46:34.you. If a special adviser had to go, I would say so too should the
:46:34. > :46:38.Minister. One more point. question was about Cameron's
:46:38. > :46:44.judgment. Isn't this the second incident in 48 hours where he's
:46:44. > :46:48.shown his judgment is a little bit dubious following on from a charge
:46:49. > :46:52.of perjury in another instance? you take any of us and analyse our
:46:52. > :46:58.judgments throughout the day, we are going to make some wrong ones.
:46:58. > :47:02.Do you think Prime Minister is get it it right broadly or do you not?
:47:02. > :47:06.Everyone has his own yardstick. For me it is whether the economy
:47:06. > :47:11.recovers or not. I'm going to put them up, the good days and the bad
:47:11. > :47:17.days ining a gate. The funny thing is in this new era where they can
:47:17. > :47:21.see your text messages and other embarrassing thing you send out,
:47:21. > :47:25.not everyone could stand up to that level of scrutiny and not look a
:47:25. > :47:28.fool. Our economy should be top priority but on something like this
:47:28. > :47:35.where politicians are expected to act in a quasi-judicial manner,
:47:35. > :47:40.there are rules and guidelines as to how you should behave. You do
:47:40. > :47:45.not put somebody who had listen lobbying into a position where you
:47:45. > :47:49.said somebody else couldn't make. It is worrying. Would you take
:47:49. > :47:52.these decisions away from politicians in the future? We have
:47:53. > :47:55.to look again at quasi-judicial issues. It happens at a local and
:47:55. > :47:58.national level. There are concerns about the decisions that have been
:47:58. > :48:02.made. It is why we have an independent commission tore look
:48:02. > :48:05.into it, so we haven't got politicians judging politicians.
:48:05. > :48:09.That's why it is mind-blowing that the politician doesn't think it's a
:48:09. > :48:12.problem. A question from Graham Prebble please.
:48:12. > :48:22.Are we about to be invaded by hordes of homeless, hungry Greeks?
:48:22. > :48:25.
:48:25. > :48:30.Where would we put them, and what would they do? Alan Duncan? No, I
:48:30. > :48:36.don't think we are. The best thing is to try and sort out the economy.
:48:36. > :48:40.The best way to do that is for the euro pact, which has been agreed,
:48:41. > :48:46.to work, and for discipline, financial discipline to be restored
:48:46. > :48:50.within the eurozone. I think that Greeks will be happyer in their own
:48:50. > :48:55.country once their economy has turned round. That's what I would
:48:55. > :49:00.like to see. I have to quote to you what the Home Secretary said. Work
:49:00. > :49:06.is ongoing at the Home Office to restrict European Union immigration
:49:06. > :49:10.in the event of a financial collapse. So even if you don't
:49:10. > :49:15.expect it, Theresa May clearly does expect hordes of homeless and
:49:15. > :49:20.hungry Greeks. I'm reliably informed they did not actually say.
:49:20. > :49:24.Oh, really? There has been an admission that the Home Office,
:49:24. > :49:31.particularly with the Olympics coming, they have many contingency
:49:31. > :49:36.plans. They run scenarios for all sorts of problems, that's what
:49:36. > :49:40.Governments do. But to say that is going to happen, it isn't going to
:49:40. > :49:45.happen. This is in the Daily Telegraph, so it must be true.
:49:45. > :49:51.Fraser, you work for them. European immigration wasn't restricted when
:49:51. > :49:57.Poland and other countries came into the EU. We were told it
:49:57. > :50:02.couldn't be. On a permanent basis you can't do it but you can suspend
:50:02. > :50:05.it for a temporary period. The French did it during the Libyan war.
:50:05. > :50:13.For as long as we are in the European Union we can't stop
:50:13. > :50:18.anybody from Greece or the member states from coming here. Anybody
:50:18. > :50:21.with any money in Greece is getting it out of there as fast as they can
:50:21. > :50:26.before it is transferred into the drachma and worth almost nothing.
:50:26. > :50:31.Why is it a problem to have it here and not there right now? If you are
:50:31. > :50:35.in the market for a property in the South East now, the prices are
:50:35. > :50:41.summering away from you. The third biggest buyers in London last year
:50:41. > :50:48.were Greeks. Nopts greatest problem in the world, but -- not the
:50:48. > :50:54.greatest problem in the world. The odds are if greex come here the
:50:54. > :50:59.odds are they would set up a business and do well. There are
:50:59. > :51:03.worse things that could happen than go-getting Greeks coming here
:51:03. > :51:09.because our economy is better than theirs. You missed the point as to
:51:09. > :51:13.why people would want to come here. OK, it's a great country but it is
:51:13. > :51:16.partly down to our benefits system being very open and welcoming. I
:51:16. > :51:19.think perhaps some stronger barriers there would deter the
:51:19. > :51:23.people that don't want to be entrepreneurial. This is a major
:51:23. > :51:29.problem, because the EU is threatening to force us to give
:51:29. > :51:33.full benefits to everybody who comes up here. Tell them to go to
:51:33. > :51:37.hell. Iain Duncan Smith is fight that. The Government will probably
:51:37. > :51:41.win. If we were to offer complete benefits to anybody who turns up,
:51:41. > :51:46.because they are some of the most generous in Europe, it would be a
:51:46. > :51:50.major problem. Mark Oaten? I would be really disappointed if one of
:51:50. > :51:55.the consequences that we are having in Europe and with the euro meant
:51:55. > :51:59.we started to get jingoistic and started to put the barriers up.
:51:59. > :52:02.First it is the Greeks we don't want, then the Spanish and then the
:52:02. > :52:06.Italians. What's good in Europe is we have this free movement of goods
:52:06. > :52:10.and people. I would hope that if there was an opportunity for
:52:10. > :52:15.individuals to be able to make use of, that we wouldn't put the
:52:15. > :52:19.barriers in place. We would want to have no restrictions in place, in
:52:19. > :52:22.my judgment. I think the comments that Alan made are right. The real
:52:22. > :52:25.solution to this is tackling the euro crisis not picking on the
:52:25. > :52:29.Greeks, not starting to make negative comments towards them but
:52:29. > :52:34.doing all that we can to support them. I work a lot in Brussels. I
:52:34. > :52:37.was in Brussels this morning with meetings. Everybody is concerned
:52:37. > :52:41.about the euro, particularly what's going to happen to the Greeks next.
:52:41. > :52:45.It is time to get behind and try to support them. When I heard about
:52:45. > :52:50.these measures the Home Secretary is putting in player, I assumed she
:52:50. > :52:56.was talking about the passport queues at Heathrow Airport, which
:52:56. > :53:00.frankly would restrict anybody from coming into this country anyway!
:53:00. > :53:07.APPLAUSE I think we've got a real problem that the chickens are
:53:07. > :53:11.coming home to roost. Our historically euro scepticism means
:53:11. > :53:18.that the euro and the architecture around it were being designed we
:53:18. > :53:23.are not in the design office. It is disconcerting to a lot of us that
:53:23. > :53:30.yet again we are telling continue. Nens how to sort out their problems.
:53:30. > :53:36.Not good now I suppose saying well perhaps 30, 40, 50 years ago when
:53:36. > :53:42.we should have been signing the treaties of Rome to in a sense here
:53:42. > :53:46.still continue to expound what are quite aggressive and quite sad
:53:46. > :53:51.sentiments. That is the most illogical argument I've heard in a
:53:51. > :53:54.long, long time. One of the reasons we are in a better position than we
:53:54. > :54:00.otherwise would be, because we were part of that argument and we put
:54:00. > :54:06.the argument strongly that we did not want to be part of the euro.
:54:06. > :54:11.When everyone was talking about the convergence criteria, William Hague
:54:11. > :54:14.and John Major were lampooned. What about the divergence cry tear
:54:14. > :54:24.yafrplt we were right and we won that argument and thank goodness we
:54:24. > :54:25.
:54:25. > :54:29.are not part of the euro. APPLAUSE You say you don't mind a few
:54:29. > :54:34.entrepreneurial Greeks coming here, but what if they are followed by
:54:34. > :54:43.the Spanish, the Italian, the Portuguese, the Irish? Don't you
:54:43. > :54:53.think our little island might end up sinking? Victoria Coren?
:54:53. > :54:53.
:54:53. > :54:59.Greeks wouldn't make any difference to me, because I spend much of my
:54:59. > :55:03.time in a casino and they are all Greek anyway. I mentioned that I
:55:03. > :55:07.come from a family of European migrants and Britain gave them
:55:07. > :55:10.shelter when they needed it and I'm certainly not going to say that now
:55:10. > :55:20.I'm British myself I would want to refuse that shelter to anyone else.
:55:20. > :55:27.I got a letter a week letter from someone, a five-page frothing rant
:55:27. > :55:32.saying I fought in the war, people like you, foreigners, spongers, I
:55:32. > :55:37.thought right, I'm not going bin it. Obviously a terrible nutter, I'm
:55:37. > :55:42.not going to get angry but I'm going to write a long and careful
:55:42. > :55:45.letter to this person, and treat him with respect. I wrote this
:55:45. > :55:50.letter explaining that my family who came here put nothing from this
:55:50. > :55:55.country and they put a lot in. They were builders and doctors, boosted
:55:55. > :56:03.the nation and never took any benefit. I said it was wonderful he
:56:03. > :56:09.fought in the war. I got a letter back from him, I'm so sorry, I'm 93
:56:09. > :56:13.and I have no idea what I wrote to you about. APPLAUSE Hello to that
:56:13. > :56:17.chap if he is watching now. He probably doesn't remember, but my
:56:18. > :56:23.position hasn't changed. I'm an optimist about people that come.
:56:23. > :56:28.We'll make room and make space just like if an extra person turns up to
:56:28. > :56:33.a party. You just stick more sausages the barbecue. Stella
:56:33. > :56:38.Creasy? It does feel like we are looking down the wrong end of the
:56:38. > :56:42.telescope. Your question is about the growing crisis on our doorstep
:56:42. > :56:47.with the eurozone. If large quantities of people from Spain,
:56:47. > :56:54.Italy and Greece are thinking about coming here it is because the
:56:54. > :56:59.eurozone is in crisis. One of the things around the visas for the
:56:59. > :57:04.Greek community is they are looking for failure. We are not going to
:57:04. > :57:08.get yoth in this country if the eurozone falls apart. We need to
:57:08. > :57:13.get our own economy back on its feet. There is no bad outcome for
:57:13. > :57:17.the eurozone that isn't a bad outcome for Britain. The people
:57:17. > :57:21.coming here would be the lice of the issues we have to deal with the
:57:21. > :57:26.this collapse happens. I hear that kind of briefing and I see the
:57:26. > :57:29.Prime Minister looking at Europe and shrugging and some people being
:57:29. > :57:35.smug about the problems of the eurozone. They don't understand how
:57:35. > :57:40.this cries lis affect us and people in my community searching for a
:57:40. > :57:44.problem. We need to be talking about what we can do to get the
:57:44. > :57:47.credit back into our economy and get businesses moving again.
:57:48. > :57:55.They're offen trading with Europe. 50% of our trade is with Europe.
:57:55. > :57:59.They need us to be serious partners to get this right, not to be on the
:57:59. > :58:02.edges planning for failure as this Government is. We have to stop,
:58:02. > :58:07.because our time is up. because our time is up.
:58:07. > :58:11.Next week we'll be in Inverness. On our panel Charles Kennedy and the
:58:11. > :58:16.actor Alan Coming and others. The following week we'll be in
:58:16. > :58:26.Stockton-on-Tees. If you want to come to either, talk
:58:26. > :58:27.
:58:27. > :58:32.to our panel and argue with them, visit our website.
:58:32. > :58:39.I thank our panel for coming in, Nicole included. I got it in the